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Hello, and welcome to this episode
of Superhero Ethics. Friends. We are

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just about the end of the year, and this is when people often will

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spend some time looking back on the
year that was, the things that were

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great, the things that were not
so great. Often a content website like

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this, we'll look specifically at that
content, but a lot of us we

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might be spending some time thinking about, you know, who we are,

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what we are, what we want
to change, what resolutions we want to

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make so we can break them within
a week or two, what's going to

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be different. Paul and I are
kind of doing exactly that with Superhero Ethics

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Today. We're gonna be talking about
how we sort of felt about twenty twenty

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two as a year, but we're
also be talking about sort of how we

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feel Superhero Ethics has been. Because
we're I think this is now almost seven

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years we've been doing this podcast.
We're both giving a lot of thought to

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where we want to see it go
and what comes next and some other things,

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and we're gonna have a lot of
that to talk tell you about right

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after this. Welcome back, and
Matthew your host. They then pronounce I'm

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Paul, Happy Aks and Madman you're
not host, and I gently prefer they've

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then pronounced. But I'm not super
I don't know whatever, I'm the way

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I am by now you know or
you don't. That seems very fair.

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That seems very fair. So Paul, I'm really glad you're here with me

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for this because you've been, as
we say, you were officially the co

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host for a while. You've now
officially been unofficially the co host, but

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the most regular guest for quite some
time. And this is a podcast there's

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really gone through a lot of changes, a lot of evolution, and recently

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I think you and I have been
finding that, you know, Star Wars

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podcast has been so exciting with so
much new content, you and I have

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both been going through a little bit
of burnout in some ways about some of

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the superhero content, some of the
things as well, as we were talking

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about how we've kind of gotten a
place of wondering how many new conversations it

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are to have within the superhero ethics
sort of genre, Like, I think

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there's a lot to be said,
but our last recordings have felt a little

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bit like, Okay, well,
you know, maybe we're covering some of

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the same stuff, etc. Etc. Now to those who are panicking.

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This is not our sign off episode
by any means, but I do think

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that one of the things we've been
talking about, and Paul, let you

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speak to this as well, is
that maybe it's time for a shift and

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to try something a little bit different. And I am definitely dedicated to the

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idea of continuing to use media as
a way to have these conversations. This

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is, by no means gonna be
the last episode of Superhero Ethics. We

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have a couple of others we've already
recorded. We're going to continue to do

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some in some format or another,
but we are going to take some time

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to reflect a bit and to come
up with maybe some new ways that we're

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going to be making content together,
as well as probably still having Paul on

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from time to time with a Star
Wars Universe podcast. So there's a lot

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we wanted to do today in terms
of just kind of looking back and talking

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about like what has looking back at
this year and content, but much more

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importantly looking back on this podcast and
so what we learned from it, what

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we love, what didn't as well, And then we'll talk more at the

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end about some of our ideas about
what might be coming next, So I

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want to let folks know, like
this is a time of transition and change,

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superhero ethics might be going in a
different direction. Uh. The ideas

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and the core concept and me generating
content about it are not going to end.

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But um, we're just gonna take
some time to kind of reflect and

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think and see where we go.
But I wanted to put out for this

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end of the year, just a
real a chance to kind of reflect on

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the podcast itself. Me too.
I can, I can give you a

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better at leave. No, It's
okay, I I could. I just

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wasn't. I was like, oh, now I'm supposed to say something.

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I was gonna edit that out and
said this dude again. No, that's

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actually fairly rather emblematic of a lot
of our discussion. It is. It

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is both because I think sometimes you
may have trouble responding and often because I

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will forget to ask a question and
just pontificate. Let you know, anyway,

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go ahead, I'm I'm I'm all
about the pontification. I even invented

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a word expondicate, which sort of
means that but has some other connotations which

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you can, you know, come
up with for yourself. Uh, that

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actually oddly transitions me into one of
the things I did want to say about

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this, which is, um,
I feel like, first of all,

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this has been a great opportunity,
um, you know for me in terms

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of being able to basically take conversations
that we're going to have anyway, yeah,

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and you know, put them and
make them a little tighter than they

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otherwise be. It would be you
know, like instead of being like a

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four hour car ride type conversation,
it's like a one in an hour and

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fifty nine minute type conversation. Um. And you know, and put them

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out there and kind of feel compelled
to sometimes codify some thoughts a little a

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little more tightly and and sometimes find
you know, where there's there's some gaps

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in in my thinking about things,
and then to hear what other people have

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to say and to be able to
you know, share those ideas right right,

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And I think that has a ton
of value and you know, both

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for the people sharing ideas and for
the people having ideas share. I mean,

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the point of sharing is it's like
it's like, you know, both

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ways. Right as I look back, there's a lot of things that I'm

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looking at that I think we could
have done better that I could have done

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better, particularly in terms of like
facilitating places to continue the conversations, and

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I think we're starting to find better. We're starting to get better at that.

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Certainly we've gotten a lot more guests
on lately, which has been great,

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but something I think I want to
be a lot more intentional about as

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we move into twenty twenty three and
some new ideas because yeah, I one

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of my Jacob Lechich who was a
co host for quite a while, his

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wife made it. We want to
ask her if she wanted to be on

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the podcast as well, and her
response is, why do I want to

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be a part of your joint ego
project? I've joined vanity projects, which

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I think there's a lot of truth
to. There's a certain extent to there

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is some fundamental ego in the idea
of, Wow, this great conversation we

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just had for four hours in a
car, the whole world should hear what

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we have to say. And I
won't excuse that from myself in any way,

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but I do think part of it
is also the like, I want

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other people to hear this because I
want to know what they think too,

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and kind of I think one of
the things that I am most grateful for

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is that despite having a wide range
of ability that was given or not given

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in how easy it was to reach
us for that feedback and continue the conversations,

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that we did get so much of
it over the years. I mean

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I counted, we've got more than
one hundred total of like email feedback,

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emails, tweets, things like that
that we're responding to points we made or

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giving us questions they wanted to hear
us make So just as a thank you

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to all you were listening who did
that, it was really great. But

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also think it's the thing. Honestly, if it wasn't for that, I

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wouldn't still be doing podcasting because then
it would still feel just like you and

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I are having these fun conversations.
Why do the work of editing and sound

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and all the rest of it?
Right, Yeah, I mean I think

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there's there's some desire to feel like
you're not just like shouting into the void

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kind of right. I mean,
I think to an extent, I feel

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like listener numbers do provide that,
you know, of like, oh yeah,

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there's you know, there's people who
are deliberately listening to whatever it is

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we're saying you know, And I
mean there's an extent to which it's like,

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well, what's the point of saying
something if you don't want anyone to

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hear it? You can just use
your inside your head voice, you know

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what I mean? Like, but
yeah, I think having that feedback of

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ideas, right, not just oh
I liked it, you know this or

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that or this was you know,
I enjoyed this point or that point,

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but like I disagree with this point, or yes I like that point and

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this other thought that kind of continues
on from there. I think I think,

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in like a larger sense, that's
what people need to do more of,

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right, just like in the world
is listening to one another's ideas and

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then thinking about them some and then
sharing, you know, their own ideas

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and reactions, and having the people
who were speaking in the first place listening

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to those reactions, right. I
mean, I imagine at some point,

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you know, you can if you
have a million listeners, you know,

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and you're getting a thousand messages a
week or whatever, it's like, well,

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you you probably can't read all of
those, right, right. But

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I do think just you know,
the kind of the spirit of conversation that's

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and that's kind of how this podcast
is different than how I had really Like,

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I didn't really listen to podcasts,
right, Okay, didn't. I

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don't really listen to to very many
podcasts, right, And the ones that

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I had listened to and really benefited
from. We're mostly a single person basically

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almost like an audiobook, right where
they're just saying, Okay, I'm going

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to talk in Spanish in a kind
of intermediate level, and then there's going

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to be a transcript and you can
use that to improve your Spanish while also

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thinking about some other maybe some cultural
things or some things about grammar or whatever

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it is, and or like,
you know, it's going to be a

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poker podcast where somebody's just talking about
hands and they're basically just explaining why they

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think a thing works the way it
works. And I think there's plenty of

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value of that, and I'm into
that, and I might do some of

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that myself in the future. But
I think the thing about this podcast that

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has been great, and this is
apparently what many podcasts aim to do,

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is that it's it's about conversation,
right, It's about exchanging ideas and not

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just pontificating oneself and then having only
an audience listening that's not responding immediately,

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but also having you know, a
gas or co host and who's who's you

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know bouncing the ball back, And
you know, I think we've obviously had

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a lot of common ground over the
years, and I think you know other

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guests and Jacob as well. I
think you know, you you often aim

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to get someone who's going to have, you know, a perspective that's compatible.

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But I think it's most interesting when
the perspective is compatible but not the

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same, right, Yeah. And
it was like there was that one piece

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of listener feedback that's like, would
you consider getting you know, kind of

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a broader range of guts on or
like would you have like really very conservative

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people on and and I think your
response was kind of like, well,

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yes, as long as we agree
on certain fundamental truths kind of right,

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Like there's certain arguments that someone might
make that I'm just like, I'm not

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going to listen to that argument because
you are starting from a place that assumes

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certain givens that just like, no, like, I'm that's not a point

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up for discussion for me. And
that's generally about like basic human rights and

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you know, for me, animal
rights right. I think that's a really

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good way to put it, I
think, especially because it ties in well

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to what I was thinking before.
I want to respond to, which is

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the common to our conversation, which
is that I think one of the things

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that I was really my thought in
starting this podcast. I think also the

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process of podcasting has really helped crystallized
for me is the difference between a conversation

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and an argument. And one of
the things I think that has been really

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important, and I think you have
actually really helped me with this because a

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lot of the way you would often
structures are like, okay, well I've

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got these different points, let me
elucidate them clearly. And sometimes they'd be

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like, oh, okay, let
me discuss point one before you go to

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point thirteen, right, But is
that it's very easy when two are having

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a discussion that that's kind of unstructured, to start mixing up the different point

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you know, and to start getting
into the kind of well, like I

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like this thing for this, but
I don't like this thing for that other

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thing, and then like we're kind
of talking across purposes to each other,

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we're not talking about it quite the
same thing, Especially when with the questions

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I think we were asking on this
podcast a lot, and I'm trying really

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hard for this part not you just
sound self congratulatory. So a pod relies

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and it does. This is more
about the goals we were trying to get

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to, and you can tell us
how well or how well we didn't meet

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them. But it felt to me
so important to kind of tease apart some

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of the different strains of things,
like, Okay, well, we don't

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like these elements of a justice system
in our own world that's certainly valid,

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this fictional world mirrors that in some
ways. Cool, how can we pull

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that apart from some things within the
fictional world itself, you know, or

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how do they all link up?
And stuff like that. And I think

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one of the things that I feel
like I've gotten a lot better at,

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both in this but just in my
life in general, is like, when

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I'm having conversations and I feel those
kind of like a couple of different topics

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merging, I want to pull them
apart a bit, you know, when

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I want to be like, Okay, well, actually I think I think

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there's some truth on this point,
but maybe on this other point, this

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other person has something to say,
But we're kind of like yelling at each

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other instead of really hearing how like
you both might have some part of the

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truth. Yeah, for sure.
I think that's one of the most frequent

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kind of I don't want to say
areas of disagreement, but one of the

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most frequent failures to really listen to
each other and have a productive conversation I

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think comes from not actually listening to
and not addressing the concrete points that someone

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else is making, right, and
to basically see, like, Okay,

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there's an argument that start. That's
got like there's like ten points of logic,

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and it's like you can say,
Okay, I disagree with your conclusion,

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but show me where along that chain
of logic we depart from one another,

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right, Like, and if it's
very early on, then it's going

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to be pretty hard for us to
make progress, you know, but but

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not impossible. I mean, we
can just be like, Okay, well,

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let's let's drill down on that then, because that's where our real disagreement

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lies. Right Whereas if we're arguing
the conclusion by just talking about points nine

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and ten, it's like, well, if we disagreed on point two and

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assuming these are kind of sequential,
Right, Like, if then kind of

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things, then like we can't even
have a coherent conversation about nine and ten

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if we disagree so much on something
so fundamental like point two, whereas if

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it's like seven or eight, it's
like, Okay, now we can probably

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talk a little bit more about nine
or ten, but we're still going to

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talk more about the seven and eight
and be like, this is you know,

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this is really the key to me, This is what makes this different.

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And I think not just with the
kind of stuff we're talking about,

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but I think all sorts of you
know, logic and and decisions and attempts

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to kind of understand the world around
us. I think there's always a sense

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of like, Okay, well,
what are your assumptions, and how are

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we proceeding from those assumptions to eventually
a conclusion? And do we even agree

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on the assumptions in the first place? Right? I think that also gets

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to and this is where I'm so
glad for the different perspectives like that you

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and I have, that me and
Jacob have, but also that some of

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our different guests have brought in over
the years, because I think there's a

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very big I think there's a very
big difference between two people who agree on

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sort of like foundational principles, which
is kind of what you and I were

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talking about about. Why there's some
folks whom are never going to have on

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because we just there's nothing to talk
about because our fundamental values are so different.

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Right. That is very different I
think from where me and someone else

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have had such basically different experiences and
they have maybe experienced things that I haven't

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or vice versa, that we see
the basic things in very different ways.

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And so like when you're talking about
like the point two to point ten kind

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of thing, like you know,
to take one of the things I think

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is probably the biggest difference between the
two of us, and when we've talked

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about constantly over the last seven years, six years, well, my my,

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my association with the validity of numbers
is another thing we often disagree on.

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So six point five years whatever it
is, Yeah, the sun has

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has the Earth has orbit in the
sun more than six times since we began

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this exactly. But is you know, animal rights and the sort of value

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of animal life and things like that, And that's one where I think there's

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oftentimes where you haven't tried to convince
me of something necessarily. But I would

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say, here's why this argument works. You know again my like two through

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ten logic, which there's a whole
bunch of things about the idea of living

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your arguments that's problematic, but we're
not even going to go into that.

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But also that, um, you
know, you'll be like, well,

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no, no, actually I go
all the way back to point one or

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two and show you why I see
everything fundamentally differently. But they're the discussion

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again, is about how your difference, you know, or so for example,

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like there've in sometimes where like you
know, Jessica Plumber, who you

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know, she brought in perspectives about
things that I just would have never thought

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of in the same way. But
I think it's when those things are used

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as a way to say I am
using my own experience to tell you how

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my reading of the text and a
text to mean whatever media is we're talking

256
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about is different than yours. That
to me is fundamentally different than no,

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no, no, I think I
know the facts better, and therefore I'm

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declaring your version invalid, you know, or your opinion invalid or whatever it

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is. Yeah, I think there's
an extent to which well, not an

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extent to which everybody has their own
perspective, right, and nobody has the

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whole picture in terms of knowing everything
that exists and everything about existence, right.

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And I think to varying degrees,
we can use our experience, siences,

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and our experience of the world to
draw conclusions about how the world is

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right about sort of like whether it's
the nature of existence or the nature of

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some specific aspect of existence. And
I think having one of the things that's

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so valuable about hearing different perspectives is
just understanding kind of how different someone's perception

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of something might be, right,
and understanding to what extent our perception of

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something is based on our own experiences, right. Right, that once our

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experience then includes the perception of other
people's experiences through them sharing them, then

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that actually becomes part of our experience, not their experiences, but the experience

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of hearing them communication that, right. And I think that adds as long

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as we don't then think that we
know everything they know, or we don't

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know everything about what it's like to
be them, right, because we don't.

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We never know everything about what it's
like to be anybody else. But

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I think as long as we have
a certain amount of kind of humility about

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how much we've gained from that.
I think what we've gained is quite valuable.

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Yeah, Like, do you give
an example I think I have had.

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There's a lot of things about the
way women characters are often written,

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particularly there's a lot of ways in
which the way women characters are often written,

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especially when they're written by men,
that can be problematic or have elements

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of sexism or misogyny that I often
would have totally missed the first time I

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saw them. Listening to women talk
about these things or to other people who

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are not male or not have the
male experience that I have has allowed me

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to see a lot of that.
And it's now it's not that now every

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time I watch something I need to
say, Okay, well that tell me

286
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what I missed. Now my eyes
are more open to seeing those things.

287
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But there's still always going to be
things that I'm going to miss a lot

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more than then a woman might,
you know, or that for me as

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a disabled person, it's going to
go the opposite direction, right again,

290
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that being that, like you know, ten different women, or ten different

291
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disabled people, or ten different queer
people or vegans might They're not all going

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to see the same thing either,
you know. I think that's the other

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part of it that's so important is
being able to say, how can we

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learn from other voices, How can
we allow their perspectives to help us notice,

295
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like what are the things that we
don't necessarily see and look for them

296
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more, but also not fall into
that idea of like, Okay, well

297
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I've heard from one person of that
perspective, so now I know how everybody

298
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in that group feels or anything like
that, right exactly. It's like fox

299
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moves will often have like the one
black person to say the thing that you

300
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know a lot of other black people
aren't saying, and then it's like so

301
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they're like, oh see this is
fine, and it's like, right,

302
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:51.480
well, yeah, no, that
one person's opinion, it's not invalid.

303
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That's their opinion, and they're speaking
to their experience, but it doesn't encapsulate

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you know, every black person six
varience the same way. You know,

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I can tell you how I feel
watching scenes with you know, with like

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violence towards animals or even just scenes
with like meat in them, right,

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and I'm going to have I feel
like I'm kind of somewhere in the middle,

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probably in terms of amongst all vegans, where I know plenty of vegans

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are like, oh yeah, I'll
go out to a steakhouse and have a

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salad, and I'm like, oh
no, no, I am not doing

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that. But once upon a time
I used to go out with friends and

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you know, go wherever kind of
and then just figure out what I could

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eat, right, I was just
gonna say. Then there's also I'm sure

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vegans further on the spectrum of like
I don't even want to be friends with

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anybody who's you know, who's who's
consuming animals and and or dairy or animal

316
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products or whatever. And I feel
that, you know, I I can

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feel and understand where they're coming from. And I can also understand where you

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know, vegans who are like,
yeah, you know, live and let

319
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kill or whatever. Um Like,
I can see both, and I'm somewhere.

320
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I'm where I am right, and
that's I can talk to my experience

321
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and say this is how I felt
watching this or like, you know,

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the first episode of Moon Night,
for instance, Um right, But that's

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me. That's that doesn't mean I'm
not telling you how vegans feel about this,

324
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you know, Yeah, I mean
we literally had an example of this

325
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on the Star Wars Ethics pot on
the Universe podcast I get them mixed up.

326
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We are Another vegetarian wrote in and
had a different experience of a scene

327
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from a Star Wars product than you
and you're aublish want to do it,

328
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And I think for me it was
interesting hearing these two different vegetarian vegan perspectives.

329
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Yeah, for sure. And that's
not necessarily just like vegan versus vegetarian,

330
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right, that's just one person compared
to another person, two people in

331
00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:52.519
the non meat eat meat eating world. Yeah, and when I was a

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vegetarian, I was closer to where
I am now than than than that person

333
00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:02.559
is where they are now. Right, Um, So I want to shift

334
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:06.319
into let's talk about something because one
of the reasons why we were like,

335
00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:10.440
yeah, maybe we can like putch
us Superhero Ethics on a bit of a

336
00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:12.759
hiatus or a pause as one direction. Fan, I need to be very

337
00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:15.960
careful using the word hiatus because that
just means ending. I don't mean it's

338
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end at all. Certainly, Paul
and I are not going off on our

339
00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:22.039
solo careers. Hey, they might
get back together and play a show.

340
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I don't know. Anything about them, but I was once the camp counselor

341
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for one of their paramours. So
anyway, I appreciate that. I appreciate

342
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that there's eight million one direction songs
I want to quote response to that,

343
00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:38.920
none of which will get thank you
for not thank you. There we go.

344
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I went in a different direction.
But I think that there's one of

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the things I think that reasons why
we're like, yeah, maybe we should

346
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like take a pause or like look
in some new directions. So that was

347
00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:55.960
not even intentional, but is that
there are a lot of the same topics

348
00:23:55.960 --> 00:23:59.200
and I think we're finding are coming
up again and again and again. And

349
00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:00.599
that's not a bad thing. I
think in some ways that's the whole point

350
00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:06.480
of superhero ethics, is that it's
fascinating how some of these topics continue to

351
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be touched on in different ways again
and again. But I thought it would

352
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:11.359
be interesting to kind of like reflect
on, like, what are some of

353
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those major topics we've looked at again
and again? And for me, Paul,

354
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I think one of the biggest ones
that is kind of at the heart

355
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:21.680
of a lot of things. It's
when where you and I don't always see

356
00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:23.200
eye to eye, but if a
curious kind to hear your thoughts on is

357
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:30.200
let's start with this idea of a
person who feels like they have the either

358
00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:37.079
right to or the responsibility to basically
like break the law to save the society,

359
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:40.799
you know, to like go off
and be a vigilante, or to

360
00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:44.440
do things that the society is going
to say you shouldn't do because they need

361
00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:48.880
because it's important to fix something.
What's kind of your feeling on like that

362
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:52.279
overall topic, and how like talking
about it over these years has maybe changed

363
00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:56.759
or evolved or strengthened your views on
it. Yeah, I would say that's

364
00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:00.680
that's basically what we started with,
right. We started with like who is

365
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:03.640
your Batman? I think? Right? R And then we recently recorded a

366
00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:11.559
couple episodes that are very much in
that vein. Yeah, one of which

367
00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:19.960
may or may not be about Batman. And I would say that I'm not

368
00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:26.119
sure that like my overall sort of
stance has really moved a ton, but

369
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:32.759
I'd say it's it's deepened and sort
of broadened, right in terms of thinking

370
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:37.480
about things like you know, community
buy in kind of right, like Batman

371
00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:41.920
makes a lot more sense if there
are kids going around wearing batsuits for Halloween

372
00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:49.359
because they think he's doing something good
and or you know, Spider Man makes

373
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:56.200
more sense when everybody on you know, the seven train. It might not

374
00:25:56.240 --> 00:26:00.000
have been a seven train in that
movie, but like wants to protect him

375
00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:03.160
him because they believe in him as
a hero of the people kind of right,

376
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:07.680
right, Whereas you know that that's
not a thought that I'd really had

377
00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:15.519
a whole lot before that, and
that I think I kind of like it

378
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:18.319
got to like episode one hundred where
where someone was talking about that when we

379
00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:22.000
had the like six people were on
and I was like, yeah, this

380
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:26.039
is this is important, right,
But at the same time, it's like,

381
00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:33.839
well, you know, a community
isn't a person. It's not a

382
00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:40.720
singular entity with one point of view, right. So so it also comes

383
00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:45.200
back to kind of what my general
view on everything always is is that things

384
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:51.839
are complicated and there are always a
blend of perspectives. And I think if

385
00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:56.920
you're some sort of vigilante who has
zero buy in from the community, well

386
00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:00.079
that's that problem. That doesn't seem
like it's very good, you know,

387
00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:03.640
whereas if you have a significant amount, but there's people who are like,

388
00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:07.519
oh, you know this Daredevil he's
really messing up Hell's kitchen by you know,

389
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:12.000
causing too much rockists, It's like, well, that's that's different.

390
00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:17.359
You know, that's not the same
thing, and so yeah, I mean

391
00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:26.319
I still ultimately basically feel like what
makes sense is people trying to take actions

392
00:27:26.359 --> 00:27:30.759
that make the world more the way
they would like to see the world be.

393
00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:37.480
And when that's when their view of
what the world is or what the

394
00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:41.640
way the world they would like,
Oh my goodness, this is a hard

395
00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:48.000
sentence to create. But yeah,
when their vision of how the world should

396
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:52.839
be matches more what my vision of
the world should be, I'm going to

397
00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:56.640
subjectively say, yeah, I think
what they're doing is good. I think

398
00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:00.119
it's creating more value than it's doing
harm. Where As when their vision of

399
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:06.559
what the world should be is like
you know something that I'm like, no,

400
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:10.279
no, that's that's an oppressive healthscape, Like then I'm going to be

401
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:14.039
like, yeah, I don't think
you should be be doing that. And

402
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:18.799
I feel like we've gone through so
many different kind of instance of that,

403
00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:22.039
you know, And just to like
mention Daredevil, like, you know,

404
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:26.359
Kingpin basically fits everything I just said, yeah, except you know, it

405
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:32.240
is often also a combination of methods
versus you know, there's like what are

406
00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:34.240
you trying to accomplish? And then
how are you trying to accomplish it?

407
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:40.920
And the way you're trying to accomplish
it, are you betraying what you're trying

408
00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:45.279
to accomplish to an extent where you
actually can't end up getting what you're aiming

409
00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:51.480
for anyway because you've done so much
harm along the way. Yeah, I

410
00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:55.599
think there's so much truth there,
and it's it's funny because I'm surely even

411
00:28:55.599 --> 00:28:57.359
framed this question this way, but
as you were saying it, it came

412
00:28:57.400 --> 00:29:02.519
to mind. This podcast, I
think was really born more than anything,

413
00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:07.440
out of the discussions you and I
had over the movie Marvel Captain America Civil

414
00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:11.920
War when we realized and to me, the defining conversation was one we had

415
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:15.240
we were at a casino. We
went to the food court, which was

416
00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:17.960
not vegan at all. I think
you had to like just get fries or

417
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:22.680
something like that, and we started
a conversation like one thirty in the morning

418
00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:26.880
and realized that you were team Cap
and I was team Tony, and we

419
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:29.680
were both kind of surprised at that
and had this interesting back and forth,

420
00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:32.599
and then like three hours later like
should we go play poker, Simard,

421
00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:36.480
No, Let's keep talking, right
And in many ways, I think that

422
00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:38.359
is kind of at the heart and
soul of a lot of these conversations.

423
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:41.599
And it's certainly I think on this
topic, and part of why I love

424
00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:45.920
that movie so much is I think
that that topic is at the heart and

425
00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:51.279
soul of that movie. And I
think in a lot of ways, accountability

426
00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:53.400
is kind of the like I've had
a similar journey a little bit towards the

427
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:56.920
middle, and for me, it's
accountability is and it's kind of similar to

428
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:00.519
what you were saying about the buying
aspect of that for me, because for

429
00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:06.279
me, I am still at the
place of the thing that I'm always concerned

430
00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:08.839
about is then we start saying that
if a person thinks they should do the

431
00:30:08.920 --> 00:30:11.880
right thing and everyone around them says
they're wrong, then you know, you

432
00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:15.160
say you move. And my problem
is like, well, that's Hitler,

433
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:19.759
that's that's Kingpin, that's all these
people throughout history who have said, like

434
00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:25.319
I am so certain in my convictions
that I'm not going to listen to anybody

435
00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:27.400
else and I'm going to therefore,
like, so what I do is justified.

436
00:30:29.240 --> 00:30:33.720
And I think what you and others
have helped me kind of more rightly

437
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:37.480
point out though, is that like
if the flip side is therefore to put

438
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:41.839
the onus in institutions and systems,
and in many ways, watching the Wire

439
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:45.440
it was a good wake up for
me on this, like, even though

440
00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:48.200
those are made up of individuals and
there can be more democratic, they can

441
00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:53.640
still be just as broken and just
as terrible. And to me it's funny

442
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:56.160
that, like, I don't want
to hold up Arrow Verse as like the

443
00:30:56.559 --> 00:31:02.359
pinnacle of ethical super meat superhero media. It's got a lot of problems,

444
00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:06.559
both like ethically and also just wow, some writing issues, though some of

445
00:31:06.599 --> 00:31:11.440
it's very very good. But I
think the thing that that show that all

446
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:14.559
the shows in the arrow Verse kind
of demonstrate to me is that even when

447
00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:18.240
you go it alone, or that's
the whole point, that all those characters

448
00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:22.759
wind up starting off going it alone
and then wind up having a community of

449
00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:27.480
accountability around them, and that that's
to me, it's kind of the flip

450
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:30.799
side of the buying thing you're saying, is that to me, what's most

451
00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:33.839
important is because I think like someone
like Kingpin, where he really goes wrong

452
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:37.359
is not just his methods, but
it's that he thinks he knows what's right

453
00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:41.640
for people. It's that he never
asks the people, is this what you

454
00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:45.839
want? Is this what's right for
you? And I think in many ways

455
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:48.480
some of the Batman's stories I most
love is where he is paying attach He

456
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:52.440
is listening to people talk about what
they want Gotham to be and how Gotham

457
00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:55.960
can be better and things like that, And I think that's where it's the

458
00:31:56.839 --> 00:32:00.079
It's the like, our people holding
you as an individual accountable, but also

459
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:05.440
when you're deciding what other people want
and what is best for them, how

460
00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:09.160
much are you listening to those other
people in that discussion? Yeah? Absolutely.

461
00:32:10.279 --> 00:32:15.359
I mean the thing in Civil War, there's there's two two big points

462
00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:21.400
I want to make. One is
that to me, it kind of reinforced

463
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:28.680
the idea that really concrete thinking is
kind of the only way that I ever

464
00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:35.279
want to make decisions. Where for
me, the like if you actually look

465
00:32:35.319 --> 00:32:38.759
at the details of exactly what's happening
in that movie, I feel like we

466
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:42.240
kind of got around to the point
where you're sort of like, well,

467
00:32:42.680 --> 00:32:45.039
I don't actually I'm not team Tony. In the way that like you want

468
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:50.680
things, you don't want Secretary Ross
to just run the Avengers, right,

469
00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:53.279
Like it's it's not like they had
a good situation. It's like they did

470
00:32:53.359 --> 00:33:00.119
need some accountability, right, particularly
Tony, who you know created Ultron and

471
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:02.920
then created Vision and somehow got Lucky
and the only person he got any buy

472
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:07.319
in from was Bruce, who he
was like he knew would co sign kind

473
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:10.799
of anything that he twisted his arm
too, right, and who then later

474
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:14.599
like, I think one thing he's
forgotten about that movie is people are like,

475
00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:17.319
how can he be Team Tony?
Tony was blaming Bucky, And I

476
00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:22.000
think for me, the Tony team
Tony team cap is specifically in the middle

477
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:27.000
part of that movie, when they're
discussing should there be Scovia chords or something

478
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:30.079
like them? Right. I think
the fact that in the last act in

479
00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:36.000
the movie, Tony becomes so focused
on his rage about his parents' death,

480
00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:39.039
a lot of which is his own
guilt because of his his own feelings of

481
00:33:39.079 --> 00:33:44.279
guilt or loss or regret because the
relationship with his father that he focuses on.

482
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:46.200
I have to find Bucky. I
have to beat Bucky. I have

483
00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:50.680
to kill Bucky. I have to
punish Buckie that he won't look at the

484
00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:53.559
facts. That is, to me
the perfect example of why an individual like

485
00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:58.079
Tony shouldn't be the one deciding who
gets to meet out justice on that so

486
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:01.319
kind of interjecting there, but yeah, yeah, you go on yeah.

487
00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:07.000
And you know, on top of
that, though Tony's not even team Tony,

488
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:14.079
like he he literally goes against the
accords like immediately right, like within

489
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:19.960
the same movie soya, So you
know it's, um, it's interesting in

490
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:25.039
that way. And similarly, like
it is team cap right, it's not

491
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:30.679
one man against the world. He's
saying you move, but there's a chorus

492
00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:34.079
behind him echoing that, and you
could say, like, yes, but

493
00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:37.119
he's Captain America and so he should
understand that he has all this influence and

494
00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:44.119
thus people are going to you know, follow him whether or not he's whether

495
00:34:44.199 --> 00:34:47.159
or not they're really thinking about whether
he's right. Um, And I think

496
00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:52.039
that's true to some extent. For
for Sam maybe you know, he's kind

497
00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:53.679
of like, you know, it's
your call, like I'm I go where

498
00:34:53.719 --> 00:34:57.440
you go, um, you know, and Bucky's like, well, I

499
00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:00.960
would like them to not kill me, you know. But then he's even

500
00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:04.960
Cap who says, you move,
it's agent. It's the Sharon Carter.

501
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:12.440
Oh in the movie, she's quoting
her aunt Peggy exactly who is quoting Cap

502
00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:15.960
from the comic book. But yes, she turns out to be a bad

503
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:19.599
guy maybe, but that's whole right
Oh geez okay, okay, okay,

504
00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:23.199
anyway, um the but so I
do think it matters that it's team Cap

505
00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:28.440
to some extent aside from Cap,
right, um, But also like in

506
00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:34.000
terms of buying, like Hitler had
buying, you know, yeah, And

507
00:35:34.199 --> 00:35:37.960
that's the thing that's the scary thing
is it's like people acting alone can do

508
00:35:38.039 --> 00:35:44.960
horrible things. People acting in groups
can do horrible things on a larger scale.

509
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:50.480
But similarly, people acting alone can
do great things that create a lot

510
00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:55.119
of value for those around them,
and people acting in groups can create more

511
00:35:55.239 --> 00:36:00.079
value for each other and for people
around them. Right, And so to

512
00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:05.480
me, it's less about whether something's
a group or an individual, and it's

513
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:10.039
more, you know, the group
provides amplitude. And the question is kind

514
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:19.000
of is this buy in organic or
is it you know, perhaps coerced perhaps

515
00:36:19.159 --> 00:36:25.599
some amount of conditioning, right,
yeah, not like hydra not hydra conditioning,

516
00:36:25.639 --> 00:36:30.199
but like manufactured consent, right,
Yeah, if you get everyone to

517
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:36.199
if everyone is very afraid and therefore
they consent to letting you have power to

518
00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:42.039
keep them safe, and they're afraid
because you either manipulated and exploited things then

519
00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:44.719
to be afraid of, or created
the thing for them to be afraid of,

520
00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:46.320
then yeah, that's that is buying
of a sort. But it's by

521
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:52.079
no means informed consent. Right,
And I think there's another point that you

522
00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:53.239
made there, at least if I
understand, or maybe I'm gonna make a

523
00:36:53.239 --> 00:36:57.199
completely different point that you're trying to
make, we'll see. But um,

524
00:36:58.119 --> 00:37:00.239
I've always seen that one of the
goals of this podcast is to be able

525
00:37:00.280 --> 00:37:08.800
to say, like, this movie
raises this particular discussion, but now let's

526
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:14.559
like, yes, we're arguing team
Tap, team Team Tap or Team Cony,

527
00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:19.400
Teama, team Tap or Team Tony. But what we're trying to do

528
00:37:19.480 --> 00:37:22.159
is get at the heart of the
issues of that question itself, because I

529
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:23.880
think what too often will happen is
people will be like, you'll try to

530
00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:27.719
make a larger philosophical argument and they're
like, oh no, but actually,

531
00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:31.360
what this exact detail happened, so
that it's like well, no movie,

532
00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:36.400
no one story is the perfect you
know, raising up of this issue.

533
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:38.119
Instead, what I think is really
interesting is to say, okay, yeah,

534
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:43.559
this question of who gets to decide
when it's okay to break the law

535
00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:45.159
and when it's okay to use violence
in order to try and make the world

536
00:37:45.159 --> 00:37:50.199
a better place, that's an interesting
question that lots of these lots of these

537
00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:53.239
different movies and TV shows and books
and video games wrestle with. And so

538
00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:57.760
let's use that movie as the jumping
off point. But then let's not get

539
00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:00.719
so lost in the details that we're
not able to address the general question itself.

540
00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:06.679
Yeah, And I think that's where
we differ to a good extent,

541
00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:12.639
right where I agree with you in
terms of seeing the story and then saying,

542
00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:16.400
okay, we can talk about this
outside of the story as well.

543
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:22.920
But to me, I'm I'm just
so detail oriented. I'm like, I

544
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:28.920
just believe that context always matters,
and that the concrete, you know,

545
00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:35.920
circumstances of the situation are gonna like
almost every question, almost everything that you'd

546
00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:39.159
say, is this or that ethical, I'm almost always going to come down

547
00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:44.239
on the side of it depends.
Give me the details, right, tell

548
00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:46.400
me the situation, and I'll tell
you you know, you give me the

549
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:51.239
trolley problem and like, wh who's
that one person? And who are those

550
00:38:51.239 --> 00:38:53.360
five people? You know, I
want to know that, And like,

551
00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:58.440
you know, maybe I don't want
to know that just in terms of like

552
00:38:58.519 --> 00:39:01.599
oh, well these are there their
genders and races, and you know,

553
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:06.599
these people look poor and this person
looks well off, and like maybe then

554
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:08.760
I'm like, oh, I don't
want that information, you know, because

555
00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:14.280
I don't want to make the decision
based on that. But like you know,

556
00:39:15.079 --> 00:39:17.599
I'm not I'm not a big fan
of such hypotheticals in the first place.

557
00:39:17.960 --> 00:39:21.360
Um. And I'm like, can
I can I break the trolley?

558
00:39:21.400 --> 00:39:23.559
I want to break the trolley.
Let me just try and drive it off

559
00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:27.880
the tracks. Um. And I
think we may I may have misspoken because

560
00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:31.000
I think we're actually more agreement than
you think, because I'm not. I

561
00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:35.960
think my more point is that I
think I'm trying. I'm thinking of the

562
00:39:36.039 --> 00:39:38.320
kind of sort of stuff I learned, you know, where you look at

563
00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:43.480
like scientific method or but also just
like ways of like having conversations of like

564
00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:47.400
specific example, take into general principle, go back to specific example, and

565
00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:52.719
like keep those things like rolling around. Right, It's not that I think

566
00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:57.280
the details aren't specific. It's that
I think that you can say, Okay,

567
00:39:57.320 --> 00:40:00.960
here's the general principle that Tony is
arguing from. And what I'm more

568
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:04.800
ejectives the folks who say, okay, but no, but because this specific

569
00:40:04.840 --> 00:40:08.000
detail happens, therefore the whole argument
of Tony has always forever wrong, you

570
00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:10.960
know, instead of the understand it
like yeah, because because I think you're

571
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:15.639
right. That's the whole point is
I think to have an argument that is,

572
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:20.559
if I just say, let's argue
about should a person be able to

573
00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:23.639
break the law because they think the
law is wrong, I don't think there's

574
00:40:23.679 --> 00:40:27.719
any meaning to having that conversation outside
of context. I think the whole point

575
00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:30.840
is to say, yeah, I
want to have that conversation and only makes

576
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:34.639
sense in context. So let's have
it. Have that discussion in the context

577
00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:37.800
of civil war, right, And
then let's have the same conversation in context

578
00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:42.760
of Batman, and then the same
conversation in contact with V for vendetta,

579
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:46.639
and talk about how the details of
those things change, like how do the

580
00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:50.519
details of each of those situations make
it different, and what does that tell

581
00:40:50.599 --> 00:40:53.079
us about the general question about the
question in general? Does that? Does

582
00:40:53.079 --> 00:40:57.519
that make more sense? It does? Yeah, And so you know,

583
00:40:57.559 --> 00:41:02.519
we agree for the most part,
right, I do think that I pay

584
00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:07.400
a lot of attention to details and
a lot of things, and if I

585
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:09.960
am going to air, I'm going
to likely air on the side of being

586
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:16.599
too specific and maybe ignoring some overarching
principles. And I think in general,

587
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:22.760
you're often looking to kind of distill
things to more general concepts, and if

588
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:27.480
you're going to air, you're gonna
air more on the side of overlooking some

589
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:31.280
details because you're you're looking more for
the big picture. And that's one of

590
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:35.719
the reasons I think we, you
know, if I'll say so myself,

591
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:40.440
have very good conversations because like I
think having those that kind of tension,

592
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:45.519
right, forest trees, forest trees, but like in the middle somewhere finding

593
00:41:45.559 --> 00:41:47.920
like okay, let's let's talk about
both. That should be the name of

594
00:41:47.960 --> 00:41:53.239
whatever podcast we're gonna trees. I
will say that I appreciate that we both

595
00:41:53.320 --> 00:41:57.920
often do seem to agree that the
exact names of things, if it's not

596
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:01.000
actual characters, can be forgotten.
Both I'm much worse about it than you

597
00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:06.519
are. But um yeah, the
number of go ahead. Oh, I

598
00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:10.360
was just gonna say a lot of
times I'll be very specific about names of

599
00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:16.679
things, but you know, sometimes
there's there's characters often in a lot of

600
00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:23.760
um you know, on screen stories
that have names in the credits but are

601
00:42:23.800 --> 00:42:30.400
not necessarily named in the show,
you know, And and then people online

602
00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:32.320
will be like, oh so and
so I'm like, who is that?

603
00:42:32.599 --> 00:42:35.599
And then looking up, I'm like, okay, now I have to go

604
00:42:35.639 --> 00:42:37.920
to the IMDb page see this actress
face? Oh that dude? Yeah,

605
00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:42.239
okay, I know you're talking about. I think I told you that the

606
00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:45.440
proudest piece of feedback I've ever gotten
was the one star review because we didn't

607
00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:50.960
know the name in a Star Wars
review of a particular of the Beast that,

608
00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:52.719
um, I think it was that
Manda was fighting in the cave,

609
00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:55.559
which is something that's never actually I
don't think it's named in the episode.

610
00:42:55.559 --> 00:43:00.159
Oh yeah, yeah, it's something
like it was a skeleton that people saw.

611
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:02.599
It was a skeleton of a crate
dragon, and there was a crate

612
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:07.840
dragon are not spoken in any way
in that piece of media. M Yeah,

613
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:10.000
yeah, I don't. I don't
care that much about that if I'd

614
00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:13.239
read the books, I might care
about it a lot, you know.

615
00:43:13.480 --> 00:43:15.719
Yeah, but like if that thing
isn't in the thing, like I don't,

616
00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:21.559
I don't feel like that name adds
a whole lot to the conversation,

617
00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:24.760
right, Yeah, And I think
that's also part of the whole point is

618
00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:29.800
like figuring out what are the details
that are relevant to this and sometimes that

619
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:32.480
is there are details that I don't
think irrelevant that because someone else is a

620
00:43:32.519 --> 00:43:35.760
different perspective, they do think are
relevant. And that's where we can listen

621
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:38.400
to each other. Yeah, absolutely, you know, I'm I'm like always

622
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:42.519
going to try to get like actors
names, right, you know. Yeah,

623
00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:46.039
I wish on on like IMDb,
there was just a clip of like

624
00:43:46.119 --> 00:43:52.280
every actor saying their name, Like
I want to hear how someone says their

625
00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:54.599
name, you know. And I
see, that's a point that I'd never

626
00:43:54.599 --> 00:43:58.440
really thought of until you brought it
up. When to me especially it came

627
00:43:58.599 --> 00:44:01.159
it came to pass when we're talking
about the movie. I hope I'm remembering

628
00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:05.119
the right way to apnounce it shun
Lee, because I remember, like it

629
00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:07.360
was really important for you that we
that we know how to pronounce that name.

630
00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:10.800
And also the names of the people
involved, because I think one thing

631
00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:15.000
that helped point out for me is
that like a big part of kind of

632
00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:20.159
like you know, the the erasure
of other cultures is the sort of like,

633
00:44:20.199 --> 00:44:22.719
oh, okay, well I'm going
to make a little joke about how

634
00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:25.039
I'll never pronounce that person's name,
right, because like you're sort of being

635
00:44:25.079 --> 00:44:30.400
self deprecating, but you're also just
kind of you're further other rising and like

636
00:44:30.519 --> 00:44:31.840
making a joke out of the idea. Like, no, it's important understand

637
00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:35.119
how all the people's names they are
pronounced, and they're pronounced them properly.

638
00:44:35.360 --> 00:44:38.800
Yeah. Absolutely, And I'm I've
definitely heard Chun Lee, which is a

639
00:44:38.840 --> 00:44:49.920
street fighter character played by Umnawan.
But I'm pretty sure you were saying shan

640
00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:54.119
Chi. Yes, yeah, yeah, So so I think you've you've underscored

641
00:44:54.159 --> 00:45:00.920
your points. Yes, No,
I'm just very uh yeah, um um.

642
00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:06.360
But but yeah, and it's I
mean, it's it's funny because like,

643
00:45:07.559 --> 00:45:09.320
um, some names you're gonna have
an assumption. I mean, like

644
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:13.079
spider Man, You're like, Okay, I guess it's pronounced spider man,

645
00:45:13.480 --> 00:45:16.440
you know, I mean maybe it's
like spider Man, like depending on where

646
00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:19.920
you're from from or whatever. But
like, but like, yeah, I

647
00:45:19.960 --> 00:45:22.800
mean my last name, jeez,
And maybe I'm a little more sensitive to

648
00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:29.599
this because you know, um,
I while I don't come from a family

649
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:32.639
of you know, recent immigrants to
the United States, like my last name

650
00:45:32.719 --> 00:45:37.320
is German, and in German my
name would be like Paul Happa, you

651
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:43.679
know, and like, but people
are always like mister Hope, you know,

652
00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:46.199
is it is it Hope or Hope? And I'm like, no,

653
00:45:46.360 --> 00:45:49.960
yeah, you know, or if
they hear me pronounce that, they spell

654
00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:52.840
it wrong. So, you know, just like growing up, like I

655
00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:55.519
had this, you know, even
though I don't have the same feeling of

656
00:45:55.559 --> 00:46:00.440
like being othered by people getting my
name wrong right, and like that's that's

657
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:02.840
very much a difference. Um,
I do have a sensitivity to it,

658
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:07.760
and like I feel like, you
know, so like my experience helps me

659
00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:14.559
understand how a similar experience can can
feel, but then also have this additional

660
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:20.440
layer that I don't have. And
yeah, so so yeah, you know,

661
00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:24.360
I mean I like trying to pronounce
people's names the way they pronounce them.

662
00:46:23.960 --> 00:46:27.920
Um, it doesn't mean you're always
going to be able to get it

663
00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:30.519
exactly right, right, because like
names in different languages have different phonemes.

664
00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:36.599
And you know, Seemu Liu like
pronounces his name Seemu Liu right, which

665
00:46:36.639 --> 00:46:42.679
is not the way it's pronounced in
Mandarin. It's like Liu simu like is

666
00:46:42.679 --> 00:46:44.920
how it is pronounced a manner,
but he doesn't say it that way,

667
00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:46.000
right, So I'm going to say
it the way he says it in English

668
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:50.719
if I'm speaking English, and you
know, um, but I will say

669
00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:54.440
that in the Hunchi episode we did, I'm pretty sure I butchered his name

670
00:46:54.480 --> 00:47:00.800
repeatedly because I hadn't found exactly the
place you know, to pronounce, you

671
00:47:00.840 --> 00:47:04.320
know, to learn how to pronounce
it right. Yeah, No, I

672
00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:07.400
think it's really really good points there. Another one of the I think kind

673
00:47:07.400 --> 00:47:09.480
of core issues that we often come
up with, and I don't want to

674
00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:14.039
let you you tell me more to
you think of, but is the idea

675
00:47:14.280 --> 00:47:19.159
of the legitimate or illegitimate use of
violence. And I think very tied to

676
00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:24.920
that is the idea of being able
to choose what level of violence you do

677
00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:29.800
or don't use. And you and
I have both had kind of serious but

678
00:47:29.840 --> 00:47:32.599
also kind of joking conversations about like
that. Agree to which a person can

679
00:47:32.599 --> 00:47:36.719
decide I'm going to use violence but
not be lethal about it. Right,

680
00:47:37.039 --> 00:47:38.840
But I'm kinda curious, kind of
like, let's have that same analysis about

681
00:47:38.920 --> 00:47:45.159
this whole topic of when we choose
to use violence and when when when we

682
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:47.840
choose to be lethal in the use
of violence. Yeah, I mean that's

683
00:47:47.880 --> 00:47:52.920
definitely something we've talked about a lot, right, I would I would start

684
00:47:52.760 --> 00:47:58.199
at at point two by by challenging
the word legitimate you know, um and

685
00:47:58.400 --> 00:48:00.199
saying, like, you know,
I'm we could have a whole conversation,

686
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:02.480
but like, well, what do
you mean by legitimate? You know?

687
00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:07.119
For me, I'll I'll kind of
short circuit that and maybe say I will

688
00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:13.960
interpret that as um reasonable, you
know, like a reasonable action that I'm

689
00:48:14.000 --> 00:48:15.599
like, yeah, that seems like
a reasonable thing for that person to do.

690
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:22.320
And again, I think it's complicated, and you know, the context

691
00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:29.320
matters, and I think the biggest
question is really power, right right,

692
00:48:29.480 --> 00:48:35.280
Like, there's there's this image of
Pedro Martinez like throwing Don Zimmer to the

693
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:40.519
ground in the I think it was
like two thousand and three American League Championship

694
00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:45.760
Series. Um, when you know, the Yankee stormed to the mound and

695
00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:49.559
and Don Zimmer, who was for
some context was about like seventy sh at

696
00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:52.400
the time, is charging this,
you know, in his prime athlete or

697
00:48:52.440 --> 00:48:57.039
maybe slightly post prime, and Pedro
just like flips him to the ground,

698
00:48:57.039 --> 00:48:58.760
and people like, oh, how
could you do that. I'm like,

699
00:48:58.840 --> 00:49:01.679
well, he didn't punch him in
the face, you know. And And

700
00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:05.360
to me, that's that's the thing. It's like, yeah, if if

701
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:12.360
somebody who I perceive as not being
not carrying a serious threat to me attacks

702
00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:15.639
me unarmed, like I'm not going
to hit them hard, you know,

703
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:22.800
Whereas if someone who is very physically
threatening comes at me, I'm going to

704
00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:27.679
use a different approach to how I
respond to that, you know, right,

705
00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:30.800
And I think that's reasonable. I
think that's I think there has to

706
00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:35.039
be some understanding for like, yeah, if someone just comes at you,

707
00:49:35.760 --> 00:49:38.239
I mean, you know, I've
I've hit people in the head in just

708
00:49:38.360 --> 00:49:42.719
reaction when somebody like is like,
oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna poke you

709
00:49:42.760 --> 00:49:45.920
from behind, or I'm gonna like
pretend like I'm punching you, and it's

710
00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:49.880
like sorry, but like don't do
that, you know, And and so

711
00:49:49.960 --> 00:49:52.599
like there is a sense of like
well, some of it is just going

712
00:49:52.639 --> 00:49:55.960
to be split second reaction, right, But if you are somebody who is

713
00:49:57.039 --> 00:50:00.880
often going to be in situations like
that, you app resolutely have to have

714
00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:08.760
training that puts you that that designs
you to like not respond with lethal violence

715
00:50:09.320 --> 00:50:15.039
to you know, very unlikely to
be lethal, to like non serious attacks,

716
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:19.039
or to things that are maybe perceived
as threatening but aren't even attacks at

717
00:50:19.039 --> 00:50:21.679
all. Right, I mean,
one thing I think that has been very

718
00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:23.960
well documented. I'm sure I probably
even have some degree of this, though

719
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:28.159
I've only try to unpack it,
is that, like, just to give

720
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:30.519
one example, when you said,
like you know, if you do perceive

721
00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:34.400
this to be a serious threat or
not, that something like for example,

722
00:50:34.440 --> 00:50:38.039
skin color has a drastic effect in
how much people do or don't perceive a

723
00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:40.880
threat, and that like you know, in studies, they'll do like they'll

724
00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:45.320
have like you know, a picture
of a white person in a pose that

725
00:50:45.320 --> 00:50:47.119
could be threatening and at a picture
you know of a black person, and

726
00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:51.760
often it's like two pictures out of
like twenty or whatever. But that consistently

727
00:50:51.800 --> 00:50:54.800
people even though they're the exact same
pose and everything is about it is the

728
00:50:54.840 --> 00:50:59.639
same, the person of color will
be perceived to be far more of a

729
00:50:59.679 --> 00:51:04.119
threat and like their efforts, you
know, like and often it's like cops

730
00:51:04.480 --> 00:51:07.800
like right, the highest atree of
that. Yeah, I think that's I

731
00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:09.840
think that that's one thing that I
think that can I just respond to that

732
00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:15.280
very quickly. And so that's like
on average, that's in general. Um,

733
00:51:15.320 --> 00:51:17.840
And you're talking about implicit bias basically, yes, right, And and

734
00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:22.320
there are actually tests for implicit bias, like that's a thing, right,

735
00:51:22.599 --> 00:51:27.320
you know, and I mean I've
I've taken them, and like some people

736
00:51:27.639 --> 00:51:30.159
have a lot of it, some
people have none, or some people might

737
00:51:30.159 --> 00:51:37.360
even have the opposite you know,
and like the opposite of what is commonly

738
00:51:37.159 --> 00:51:40.280
projected in media or like what most
people are going to have in terms of

739
00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:45.320
bias. And I think there's value
to those tests in terms of like both

740
00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:50.079
in terms of yourself, like like
you don't need to judge yourself if you

741
00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:53.760
have implicit bias. Like, if
you have implicit bias, it's probably because

742
00:51:53.760 --> 00:52:00.320
you've been bombarded by you know,
essentially by propaganda to make you see things

743
00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:02.880
in a certain way. But if
you know that you have that bias,

744
00:52:04.119 --> 00:52:09.079
then you can work to resolve it
over time and probably and if you are,

745
00:52:09.519 --> 00:52:14.480
you know, someone who's carrying a
gun for a living, you should

746
00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:17.159
definitely like you should have to do
that, right, and there should be

747
00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:22.159
training for countering that and not just
like sitting around talking about things, but

748
00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:25.320
like, I think there are more
productive ways of trying to address that.

749
00:52:27.039 --> 00:52:30.280
Yeah, and then not only that
it's individual responsibility, but also the yeah

750
00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:32.559
that that and I think this is
kind of one of the core questions we

751
00:52:32.599 --> 00:52:35.800
have to discuss of like, you
know, if we should have this,

752
00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:39.360
but right now we live in a
society where the government and this is kind

753
00:52:39.400 --> 00:52:43.239
of what I was getting at with
the idea of the legit The phrase the

754
00:52:43.320 --> 00:52:45.639
legitimate use of violence is one that
comes from political science, right, and

755
00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:51.639
it's it is the idea that like
a government gets to mandate that you know,

756
00:52:51.679 --> 00:52:55.519
for example, police and military get
they have the right to exercise a

757
00:52:55.599 --> 00:53:00.159
legitimate use of violence that most other
citizens do not. And to be clear,

758
00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:06.760
when I said I'm contesting that word, it's because I reject that claim

759
00:53:06.920 --> 00:53:09.119
on behalf understood. We understood,
And yeah, so I think that one

760
00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:12.639
of the things that's often they discussed
is well, if that has to be

761
00:53:12.679 --> 00:53:15.159
true, and then there's another discussion
having this podcast should it be true?

762
00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:19.280
But it's like, could we at
least have him like that? You have

763
00:53:19.320 --> 00:53:22.480
to have a certain limit on the
implicit bias you have before the state will

764
00:53:22.519 --> 00:53:24.880
say, cool, we're going to
give you a gun and let you go

765
00:53:24.880 --> 00:53:28.559
out and decide what is or is
an illegal threat? Right exactly, if

766
00:53:28.599 --> 00:53:30.719
you're gonna do this thing that we're
not sure you should even be doing,

767
00:53:31.079 --> 00:53:36.440
at least do it this way,
right. Yeah. I think one of

768
00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:38.800
the things for me, I think
this topic may be that I've moved a

769
00:53:38.840 --> 00:53:43.719
lot more than you have. I'm
not sure, but I know that around

770
00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:45.920
the time, I think i'd always
started to move off of this, But

771
00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:49.519
around the time I started this podcast, there was a part of me that

772
00:53:49.639 --> 00:53:54.360
was still very dedicated to a sort
of an idea that like, non violent

773
00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:58.239
resistance is always going to be better. And I don't even just mean on

774
00:53:58.239 --> 00:54:02.320
an individual level, but in terms
of that, like using violence to fight

775
00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:08.960
for political freedom is always going to
be somewhat problematic because then you're you're enacting

776
00:54:08.960 --> 00:54:15.440
your freedom by you know, coercing
others into into that. So is that

777
00:54:15.559 --> 00:54:21.320
inherently contradictory and stuff like that and
I think that not just because this podcast

778
00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:23.840
to sort of track that evolution,
but probably been a part of that evolution.

779
00:54:24.039 --> 00:54:28.800
That's an area in which I think
I've changed the most where and for

780
00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:34.400
me, it's I've come to two
different but related conclusions. The first of

781
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:38.920
which is that most of the people
who I really hero wise for their use

782
00:54:38.920 --> 00:54:44.280
of non violence, Martin the King
especially, but even Gandhi. Gandhi maybe

783
00:54:44.360 --> 00:54:47.599
is a little bit different, but
Martin King, especially for them, non

784
00:54:47.719 --> 00:54:52.800
violence is a tactic. It is
not a philosophy, like there's a lot

785
00:54:52.840 --> 00:54:57.119
of his of the King's work that
is philosophical. But becase people have pointed

786
00:54:57.159 --> 00:55:00.440
out, you know, he was
happy to have men with guns too protect

787
00:55:00.519 --> 00:55:04.559
him. It was for him and
topprect his family. It's that he saw

788
00:55:04.679 --> 00:55:09.320
non violence as a politically viable strategy
in a world where public opinion could really

789
00:55:09.400 --> 00:55:13.960
matter and where most of the guns
were on the side of those who are

790
00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:16.920
trying to oppress him and other African
Americans, black people in the South at

791
00:55:16.960 --> 00:55:22.079
the time, or all the people
he would talk about. And I think

792
00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:23.800
I used to be somewhat of a
purist on that idea. And I think

793
00:55:23.800 --> 00:55:28.960
a lot of things have helped to
change my mind about that, and in

794
00:55:29.000 --> 00:55:35.280
some ways I think and I still
have some feelings about these sort of the

795
00:55:35.440 --> 00:55:42.679
problems of it being the people who
use violence to stop oppression now becoming the

796
00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:45.840
new people in power. And that's
why I think V for Vendetta is such

797
00:55:45.880 --> 00:55:49.880
a good movie. And I'll name
the second, but then we can maybe

798
00:55:49.880 --> 00:55:52.079
discussing them separately. And the second
big change I think for me has come

799
00:55:52.119 --> 00:55:54.880
in as an area where I know
you and I don't fully agree, is

800
00:55:54.920 --> 00:56:00.079
that there are situations where I would
look at it and I would say,

801
00:56:00.679 --> 00:56:07.199
I don't think that the oppression that
is happening here is what I would think

802
00:56:07.239 --> 00:56:12.360
of as reasonable to justify the kind
of violence that you are that people are

803
00:56:12.440 --> 00:56:16.239
choosing to enact in response to it, but that I also want to recognize

804
00:56:16.639 --> 00:56:22.239
that as someone who is not dealing
with that oppression, not that I think

805
00:56:22.239 --> 00:56:25.360
that it makes my voice invalid on
the topic, but that I have to

806
00:56:25.400 --> 00:56:30.480
give account for the fact that it
is very likely that I don't truly understand

807
00:56:30.719 --> 00:56:35.159
just how oppressive the situation is,
or that it is easier for me to

808
00:56:35.239 --> 00:56:37.599
say, well, could there be
other ways to dealing with it? Other

809
00:56:37.639 --> 00:56:45.480
than violence, because I'm not the
one personally experiencing that oppression. And so

810
00:56:45.519 --> 00:56:46.880
I think it's what I've come to
is that I'm a place of like,

811
00:56:47.400 --> 00:56:51.159
you know, like I think you
could go all like to me, the

812
00:56:51.159 --> 00:56:53.239
opposite end of where I used to
be is the kind of like kill Monger

813
00:56:53.320 --> 00:56:58.639
was right. Kill Monger was the
hero, and I'm not quite there,

814
00:56:58.639 --> 00:57:00.400
but I'm certainly a lot closer.
Man. I'm kind of curious for you,

815
00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:04.440
Paul, um if you want to
talk about one one of those two

816
00:57:04.599 --> 00:57:07.880
perspectives or both of them are kind
of going off on a tangent up to

817
00:57:07.880 --> 00:57:08.920
you, but kind of where you
stand in regard to the things I'm bringing

818
00:57:08.960 --> 00:57:12.360
up. Yeah, well, so
first of all, you want to do

819
00:57:12.400 --> 00:57:15.760
a whole another podcast on that,
and and I'll just talk for an hour

820
00:57:15.800 --> 00:57:19.000
and then you talk for another hour. Yea, so much we can say

821
00:57:19.039 --> 00:57:22.440
there, it's yeah, I mean, that's that's fertile ground. I will

822
00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:27.559
start by saying, Um, I
have never been a pure pacifist at all.

823
00:57:28.199 --> 00:57:32.079
Um. I mean I studied violence, and I taught violence for over

824
00:57:32.119 --> 00:57:37.320
a decade each by which I mean, you know, I trained in martial

825
00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:39.280
arts and I didn't I mean,
we hit each other, you know,

826
00:57:39.679 --> 00:57:43.719
as part of the practice, Like, you know, we would make each

827
00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:49.880
other bleed from time to time,
and the purpose was in theory largely,

828
00:57:50.239 --> 00:57:54.199
um at least partially learning self defense. Right. If somebody tries to do

829
00:57:54.280 --> 00:58:00.920
violence to me or someone else,
um, you know that that I somebody

830
00:58:00.920 --> 00:58:02.840
else, you know. I don't
want to use the word innocent, but

831
00:58:02.880 --> 00:58:07.519
like someone else is being attacked,
I am willing to use violence to stop

832
00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:12.840
that violence, right, And I
do want to try and be somewhat proportional

833
00:58:12.880 --> 00:58:15.559
in terms of like, yeah,
I'm not going to try and kill someone.

834
00:58:15.639 --> 00:58:16.880
You know, where some kids trying
to beat up another kid, like

835
00:58:16.880 --> 00:58:20.760
I'm probably just going to grab them
or whatever. Right, But like my

836
00:58:20.840 --> 00:58:28.639
point being like I've always seen violence
as an acceptable response to violence because I

837
00:58:28.679 --> 00:58:34.679
think there is often like I think
sometimes that's the only way you can stop

838
00:58:34.920 --> 00:58:40.840
the violence is through violence. I
do understand that that can lead to a

839
00:58:40.920 --> 00:58:49.039
cycle of you know, self perpetuating
violence basically, right, And I would

840
00:58:49.079 --> 00:58:55.800
say that the kind of overarching principle
that I start from is that if there

841
00:58:55.920 --> 00:59:01.880
is a way to resolve something without
violence, then I'm always going to prefer

842
00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:07.960
that method. You know, I
think the only real justification for violence is

843
00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:15.719
that there is harm being done directly
or being threatened, right generally through violence.

844
00:59:16.400 --> 00:59:21.320
And sometimes this is going to be
economic violence that is enforced by the

845
00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:24.559
threat of physical violence, right um, or it can be you know,

846
00:59:25.039 --> 00:59:31.159
you could say emotional violence that is
able to be applied because of the threat

847
00:59:31.239 --> 00:59:37.519
of physical violence or something like this. But so I think on the first

848
00:59:37.559 --> 00:59:43.239
point, like I would say to
me, it's about, um, you

849
00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:47.840
know, sort of the distribution of
power, and is there another way to

850
00:59:47.840 --> 00:59:53.360
to stop this violence or this oppression. And the trouble is that you don't

851
00:59:53.360 --> 00:59:59.199
always know, right. A lot
of the non violent solutions these are these

852
00:59:59.199 --> 01:00:04.280
are hopes that something might work,
but you don't know, And so you

853
01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:08.719
can't tell someone no, no,
no, don't respond to this violence or

854
01:00:08.719 --> 01:00:14.719
this oppression through violence because there's this
other way that will definitely work. You

855
01:00:14.760 --> 01:00:17.400
don't know it will definitely work.
I think it's reasonable to say, let's

856
01:00:17.440 --> 01:00:23.400
try this first, give me maybe
this much time or whatever, and if

857
01:00:23.440 --> 01:00:30.400
that doesn't work, you know,
then every success for every success that non

858
01:00:30.480 --> 01:00:34.840
violence resistance had in the civil rights
movement or other movements at the time,

859
01:00:35.360 --> 01:00:37.920
and there's fair arguments who made about
like how success or were they There certainly

860
01:00:37.960 --> 01:00:43.719
were non violent protests that were just
you know, Canneman Square was a non

861
01:00:43.840 --> 01:00:47.559
violent protest that was ended through violence
and certainly was not It did not turn

862
01:00:47.559 --> 01:00:51.360
out to be a winning strategy,
ladyby right, right, Yeah, people

863
01:00:51.480 --> 01:00:54.840
people just get murdered sometimes right when
they're doing a non violent protest. And

864
01:00:58.840 --> 01:01:02.719
I would say that in individual saying
I am a pacifist and I want to

865
01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:09.639
resist this without violence, I think
is very noble and is a worthwhile thing

866
01:01:09.920 --> 01:01:14.800
for that person to do, and
to say, join with me, and

867
01:01:14.880 --> 01:01:21.039
let's resist this through nine violence I
think, or through pacifistic means, I

868
01:01:21.079 --> 01:01:25.599
think is a great thing to do. But I think there's a difference between

869
01:01:25.679 --> 01:01:32.840
saying let's do this compared to scolding
people for, you know, violently rebelling.

870
01:01:34.199 --> 01:01:36.960
Basically, yeah, right, that's
the difference. And to me,

871
01:01:37.039 --> 01:01:40.480
it's like, no, I'm definitely
not going to scold someone for violent rebellion

872
01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:51.280
when when they're oppressed in a way
that I am not, and I don't

873
01:01:51.280 --> 01:01:55.159
you know, I don't buy the
like can't understand, but like can't haven't

874
01:01:55.239 --> 01:02:00.559
experienced, and thus can only seek
to understand right, yeah, and put

875
01:02:00.599 --> 01:02:05.679
it and like, I don't think
anybody understands it perfectly, right, because,

876
01:02:05.719 --> 01:02:09.639
particularly when we're talking about systemic oppression, it's like, this is a

877
01:02:09.760 --> 01:02:15.000
large system that involves a lot of
people, including some of the people who

878
01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:22.079
are oppressed themselves oppressing another group of
people, or even groups of people which

879
01:02:22.079 --> 01:02:27.000
are comprised of individuals who don't all
feel it the same way, right,

880
01:02:27.039 --> 01:02:30.800
and so it's just ultimately it's very
complicated. And so you know, I

881
01:02:30.840 --> 01:02:35.639
do think you can see like someone
does one thing and then someone else responsed

882
01:02:35.639 --> 01:02:37.599
in another way because they're like,
well I felt this, and you can

883
01:02:37.639 --> 01:02:40.800
be like, whoa, that's that
seems way out of line, you know,

884
01:02:42.280 --> 01:02:44.280
but like that's that's as far as
I can go. It's like,

885
01:02:44.320 --> 01:02:46.360
well, that seems way out of
line, and you know, did you

886
01:02:46.400 --> 01:02:50.960
try doing this? But like as
far as like scolding people like oh that

887
01:02:51.079 --> 01:02:52.719
you know, they shouldn't be burning
this down or whatever, it's like,

888
01:02:53.400 --> 01:02:57.880
no, yeah, I think that's
a really good way to put it,

889
01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:00.840
especially, and to me, that
also ties back into that idea of the

890
01:03:00.840 --> 01:03:04.079
difference between strategy and kind of philosophy, you know, because I think that

891
01:03:04.159 --> 01:03:08.639
like if I am part of a
group of activists who have all decided that,

892
01:03:08.679 --> 01:03:12.599
like you know, they would all
went to like disabled activists to all

893
01:03:12.639 --> 01:03:17.360
come together to talk about like a
public theater that like isn't wheelchair accessible,

894
01:03:17.519 --> 01:03:22.519
you know, And we are all
like, you know, we're at a

895
01:03:22.559 --> 01:03:25.000
protest. We're all upset about things, and a cop gets in our face

896
01:03:25.159 --> 01:03:30.079
and one of my colleagues like tries
to run that cop over with his wheelchair.

897
01:03:30.400 --> 01:03:35.519
If someone else who's not part of
our group says like, oh,

898
01:03:35.599 --> 01:03:37.679
how could you possibly do that,
like, you know, it's not worth

899
01:03:37.719 --> 01:03:43.039
being that angry about, I'm probably
going to be like, Yo, you

900
01:03:43.079 --> 01:03:45.400
don't know what this is like,
you have no idea how frustrating and painful

901
01:03:45.400 --> 01:03:51.320
and oppressive this is. Shut the
hell up. If I'm later then talking

902
01:03:51.360 --> 01:03:53.360
with my friend, I might be
like, hey, look, I get

903
01:03:53.400 --> 01:03:58.960
your anger. I have the same
urge. Right now, all the stories

904
01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:00.960
that we wanted to talk about are
not on the front page. Instead,

905
01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:04.000
it's of you trying to hit a
cop with your wheelchair, and that gets

906
01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:06.840
into all sorts of tone policing stuff, And I'm not what I'm going to

907
01:04:06.880 --> 01:04:13.880
saying is like the difference between tone
policing versus a group internally discussing what is

908
01:04:13.960 --> 01:04:15.280
or is not a good strategy,
you know, And that's I think.

909
01:04:15.760 --> 01:04:19.159
Um that example I think actually gets
into some because I probably would be like

910
01:04:19.239 --> 01:04:24.400
no, no, hit the cop. But the point is is the idea

911
01:04:24.559 --> 01:04:29.079
of like being like, you know, as opposed to having some big open

912
01:04:29.159 --> 01:04:31.880
discussion about you know, you shouldn't
have done this or you should do this,

913
01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:34.320
as opposed to being like, hey, let's let's talk about like,

914
01:04:34.679 --> 01:04:38.719
you know, is this our approach? You know? Are are we trying

915
01:04:38.760 --> 01:04:42.880
to have a unified approach together,
you know, or are we just kind

916
01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:47.360
of like doing things ourselves? You
know, Yeah, exactly exactly. I

917
01:04:47.400 --> 01:04:50.039
think it's been interesting as well because
this is a topic that like, you

918
01:04:50.039 --> 01:04:54.840
know, BLM has been a thing
for since before this podcast started, and

919
01:04:54.880 --> 01:05:00.000
I mean like police brutality and military
brutality and it directed towards pressed populations.

920
01:05:00.239 --> 01:05:02.920
I mean, that's been a thing
for thousands and thousands of years, but

921
01:05:02.960 --> 01:05:05.960
there's certainly been a lot more attention
paid to it in the last couple of

922
01:05:06.039 --> 01:05:09.920
years. And just in that regard, it's been really fascinating to me,

923
01:05:09.960 --> 01:05:13.119
and I like this podcast has been
a part of tracking that I'm just seeing,

924
01:05:13.159 --> 01:05:15.800
like, how like even with like
this was from a while ago,

925
01:05:15.840 --> 01:05:19.840
we discussed the difference between like the
Sylvester Stallone version of Judge Dread versus the

926
01:05:19.880 --> 01:05:24.920
movie Dread with Carl Urban that we
have a podcast not coming out into a

927
01:05:24.920 --> 01:05:28.360
week or two, and even then
we were talking about how like, society's

928
01:05:28.440 --> 01:05:30.800
views on some of these questions have
changed a lot, and I think that's

929
01:05:30.840 --> 01:05:34.639
been as we look at this topic
of violence. Like, I think it's

930
01:05:34.719 --> 01:05:38.280
interesting. I think to me,
one of the things that really appreciated about

931
01:05:38.320 --> 01:05:41.360
the journey we've gone on is just
that we're kind of tracking as our whole

932
01:05:41.360 --> 01:05:46.360
society is going on journeys. And
I like, I certainly think that the

933
01:05:46.519 --> 01:05:51.719
Overton window of will a cop believed
that violence was necessary, therefore violence was

934
01:05:51.760 --> 01:05:58.480
necessary has shifted quite a bit,
as has the idea of well, these

935
01:05:58.559 --> 01:06:00.880
people are fighting back, they should
just be doing non violent resistance. That

936
01:06:00.920 --> 01:06:05.440
has also shifted a good deal.
Yeah, particularly in terms of the you

937
01:06:05.480 --> 01:06:13.920
know, network television conversation and you
know the population at large, right,

938
01:06:13.960 --> 01:06:17.400
I mean, obviously there have for
a long time been conversations about such things,

939
01:06:17.480 --> 01:06:27.800
but but they've the discussion has certainly
gotten broader, It's gotten heard by

940
01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:30.039
more people. I would say,
right, is almost the biggest thing.

941
01:06:30.880 --> 01:06:34.360
Like I look at something like Falcon
the Winter Soldier, and I know that,

942
01:06:34.400 --> 01:06:39.159
like we both had a lot of
good feelings about the Flag Smasher group

943
01:06:39.199 --> 01:06:42.239
at the beginning. Towards the end, I think they really want some bad

944
01:06:42.239 --> 01:06:45.559
directions that even stronger feelings than I
did. But I don't know if,

945
01:06:45.599 --> 01:06:47.559
like if that show was made ten
years ago, I don't know if we

946
01:06:47.599 --> 01:06:51.960
would ever started with sympathy for the
flag smashers, you know, Yeah,

947
01:06:53.000 --> 01:06:57.599
I mean you mean in terms of
would would the show have started with sympathy

948
01:06:57.679 --> 01:07:00.039
for them? Would the story have
like thea as I interpreted it, the

949
01:07:00.039 --> 01:07:04.000
story was told originally in a way
that had a lot of sympathy for the

950
01:07:04.119 --> 01:07:10.039
motivations, if not necessarily the actions
of the flag smash Right, Yeah,

951
01:07:10.079 --> 01:07:14.639
I think that is a story that
is easier to tell in that way in

952
01:07:15.320 --> 01:07:20.159
twenty twenty or twenty twenty one,
whenever it came out, than it was

953
01:07:20.360 --> 01:07:28.559
to tell a story like that in
twenty ten. For sure. Now,

954
01:07:28.599 --> 01:07:30.440
the last part of this, I
think is one that we've probably covered to

955
01:07:30.519 --> 01:07:32.719
death. And as you said,
we mostly joked about it. We've talked

956
01:07:32.760 --> 01:07:35.239
some seriousness about it too, But
I'm wondering if you kind of have any

957
01:07:35.320 --> 01:07:42.000
kind of like the summation of thoughts
or sort of how your feeling has changed,

958
01:07:42.119 --> 01:07:45.119
or just kind of thought more about
it in terms of this idea of

959
01:07:45.960 --> 01:07:49.280
the large number of characters and the
stories we talk about who make the claim

960
01:07:49.320 --> 01:07:53.960
that you can use violence without it
being lethal, and who like they're dedicated

961
01:07:54.000 --> 01:07:57.880
to I will use violence, but
I won't kill. Yeah, I mean,

962
01:07:57.920 --> 01:08:01.280
in reality you can't, and in
comics who can, you know.

963
01:08:01.440 --> 01:08:08.400
And so to me, the comic
book idea of comic book violence that is

964
01:08:08.480 --> 01:08:14.880
non lethal is kind of aspirational.
Yeah, you know, it's kind of

965
01:08:16.199 --> 01:08:25.359
it's not a realistic portrayal of how
things work in our world, right,

966
01:08:25.640 --> 01:08:30.119
but I think it's Hey, if
we can do whatever kind of violence without

967
01:08:30.119 --> 01:08:34.960
it being lethal, that is better
than doing lethal violence, like almost like

968
01:08:35.000 --> 01:08:43.279
basically objectively, right, And I
think it's a little bit of both ways,

969
01:08:43.560 --> 01:08:45.800
right where it's like, I think
that's great, And I love my

970
01:08:45.920 --> 01:08:51.439
heroes who subscribe to that, you
know, like like Batman or Daredevil,

971
01:08:54.000 --> 01:08:57.119
you know, but I also love
my anti heroes like dexter who are just

972
01:08:57.159 --> 01:08:59.880
like, nah, I'm just they're
just going to be dead and you know

973
01:09:00.640 --> 01:09:04.359
in little bags at the at the
you know, outside Miami in the water,

974
01:09:05.760 --> 01:09:10.079
which I'm not I'm not advocating doing
that. I'm just saying, you

975
01:09:10.119 --> 01:09:14.279
know, I enjoy those stories.
I think there is in terms of both

976
01:09:14.319 --> 01:09:19.119
ways, there is a potential danger
of people seeing comic book violence and thinking

977
01:09:19.399 --> 01:09:25.039
that they can then engage in said
violence without any risk of death, right,

978
01:09:25.359 --> 01:09:28.399
right, I mean, I think
that's that's an issue, you know,

979
01:09:28.479 --> 01:09:30.359
whereas like you'll see a murder mystery
and someone will hit someone on the

980
01:09:30.359 --> 01:09:32.880
back of the head with a pipe
and they're just dead, you know,

981
01:09:33.359 --> 01:09:39.159
yeah, and it's like that can
happen. I think statistically that's probably an

982
01:09:39.239 --> 01:09:42.119
unlikely outcome that you hit someone on
the back of the head one time and

983
01:09:42.159 --> 01:09:45.079
they're dead, But it's a possibility, right the same way you can punch

984
01:09:45.159 --> 01:09:49.399
someone in the chest really hard and
they can die, but they probably won't.

985
01:09:49.880 --> 01:09:54.399
Right. That's I'm guessing at the
Taekwondo studio you had to run,

986
01:09:54.439 --> 01:09:58.199
like all of them people have to
sign waivers because like I am sure,

987
01:09:58.239 --> 01:10:00.720
this is incredibly rare and there's lots
of steps you can take it. But

988
01:10:00.800 --> 01:10:04.159
like, I do not know this
for a fact, but I would be

989
01:10:04.199 --> 01:10:09.720
amazed if there hasn't been at least
one incident of someone doing martial arts training

990
01:10:09.720 --> 01:10:13.239
of some kind and dying. Oh, of course, the exact wrong set

991
01:10:13.239 --> 01:10:17.720
of coincidence. This happens. Yeah, events happens, right exactly. There's

992
01:10:18.399 --> 01:10:23.520
I mean, yeah, there definitely
is a waiver. That's like you you

993
01:10:23.640 --> 01:10:28.720
agree to hold us to not hold
the school or it's you know, members

994
01:10:28.880 --> 01:10:35.319
or teachers responsible for injury or harm
including death. Be it like, be

995
01:10:35.399 --> 01:10:44.039
it intentional or unintentional. It's basically
like we can hurt you as much as

996
01:10:44.079 --> 01:10:46.359
we want and you can't sue us, except you probably can because you can

997
01:10:46.399 --> 01:10:50.079
probably argue this is a ridiculous clause
to part in something. But that is

998
01:10:50.079 --> 01:10:53.560
a that is a very standard clause, the same way you go to a

999
01:10:53.560 --> 01:10:56.520
hospital and they're like, yeah,
you agreed not to hold us responsible in

1000
01:10:56.560 --> 01:10:59.359
the event of your death, but
it's like you can still sue them for

1001
01:10:59.439 --> 01:11:01.920
malpractice. Right. I played rugby
in college. I had assigned the exact

1002
01:11:01.960 --> 01:11:05.279
same waiver. Because it has been
people who've died playing college sports or high

1003
01:11:05.319 --> 01:11:08.760
school sports or anything like that.
Yeah, And my teacher used to say,

1004
01:11:08.800 --> 01:11:11.720
like, you know, when we
would do competition class and he'd be

1005
01:11:11.760 --> 01:11:14.680
like he'd be like, yeah,
you know, it's it's a competition,

1006
01:11:14.760 --> 01:11:16.279
Like you're not gonna die. And
he's like, well, if you're in

1007
01:11:16.279 --> 01:11:20.119
the black belt decision division, you
might die, but you probably won't and

1008
01:11:20.279 --> 01:11:23.600
like, you know, but it's
true. It's like, yeah, when

1009
01:11:23.760 --> 01:11:27.600
when your aim is to hit someone
in the head really hard, you know,

1010
01:11:27.760 --> 01:11:30.479
yeah, you're wearing a helmet and
foot gear, but the helmet used

1011
01:11:30.479 --> 01:11:33.079
to say, like, the helmet
isn't to protect your head from getting hit

1012
01:11:33.359 --> 01:11:35.800
it, so when you get knocked
out and hit your head, you don't

1013
01:11:36.039 --> 01:11:39.880
die, you know, you don't
hit your head on the floor is hard

1014
01:11:39.920 --> 01:11:44.760
and split your your your skull open, and like yeah, so so there

1015
01:11:44.920 --> 01:11:53.039
is there is a real risk of
serious injury or death and it's not a

1016
01:11:53.119 --> 01:11:57.159
high risk, right. I never
saw anyone die in the taekwondo school.

1017
01:11:57.279 --> 01:12:01.840
I did hear teachers tell this this. One master instructor came in talking about

1018
01:12:01.880 --> 01:12:04.239
you know, the business of running
things and how you have to get them

1019
01:12:04.279 --> 01:12:08.279
to sign the waiver and like you
have to pay attention when they're doing,

1020
01:12:08.439 --> 01:12:11.399
you know, jumping Jackson the warm
up when they're a new student, and

1021
01:12:11.760 --> 01:12:14.119
it's like I had this one guy
dropped dead in the middle of it.

1022
01:12:14.239 --> 01:12:16.680
I'm like what And I don't know
whether that was a true story or not,

1023
01:12:16.800 --> 01:12:21.880
but like it certainly happened somewhere,
you know, Yeah, and and

1024
01:12:21.960 --> 01:12:28.840
so yeah, you know, the
idea that violence can be necessarily non lethal

1025
01:12:29.159 --> 01:12:33.960
is false, but the fact is
that it can be dramatically less lethal,

1026
01:12:34.119 --> 01:12:39.800
less likely. You know, there
is violence that can be aimed not with

1027
01:12:39.880 --> 01:12:45.439
the intention of causing death and be
very unlikely to cause death. But still,

1028
01:12:45.479 --> 01:12:48.560
you know, if it's in a
real fight and it's you know,

1029
01:12:48.600 --> 01:12:54.079
there's multiple attackers, like you know, you're probably not going to be able

1030
01:12:54.119 --> 01:12:56.119
to be like, oh yeah,
let me dial it down to ninety,

1031
01:12:56.720 --> 01:13:00.279
right, it's like, yeah,
everything's probably usually going to be full force,

1032
01:13:00.479 --> 01:13:04.760
and you know that's that's where the
you know, yeah, like Captain

1033
01:13:04.800 --> 01:13:11.279
America, apparently in the comics it's
discussed that like he's always holding back,

1034
01:13:12.159 --> 01:13:15.560
you know, the way Superman's always
holding back, like never hitting everybody anybody

1035
01:13:15.600 --> 01:13:19.680
full force, whereas John Walker doesn't
have that gear, doesn't know to do

1036
01:13:19.720 --> 01:13:24.319
that or doesn't care to do that, and so he just immediately kills someone

1037
01:13:24.439 --> 01:13:28.840
by hitting them, right, or
was that Carly? Carly killed someone by

1038
01:13:28.920 --> 01:13:31.520
hitting them immediately and then John Walker
got mad? Okay spoilers for Falcon in

1039
01:13:31.560 --> 01:13:34.560
the Winter Salt. No, I
think you're so right, and I think

1040
01:13:34.600 --> 01:13:39.239
I think you also put your r
I think you're so right. I think

1041
01:13:39.279 --> 01:13:42.760
you also really put the finger on
why this is an important conversation beyond just

1042
01:13:43.000 --> 01:13:45.479
being kind of like a funny thing
or something to point out being a little

1043
01:13:45.560 --> 01:13:50.680
ridiculous, because yeah, like I
I think these stories are a small part

1044
01:13:50.760 --> 01:13:55.439
of shaping like public opinion and zeitgeist
and all this kind of stuff. And

1045
01:13:55.560 --> 01:13:58.560
this is not like stop the video
games, they're dangerous. I'm never going

1046
01:13:58.600 --> 01:14:00.960
to ask these movies to be stopped
by any means, but I do think

1047
01:14:01.000 --> 01:14:08.479
that, like I think that when
violence is portrayed. There's two problems I

1048
01:14:08.520 --> 01:14:12.600
sometimes have with a portrayal of violence
in movies and TV shows, and one

1049
01:14:12.640 --> 01:14:14.800
of which is when it is portrayed
as like, oh, yeah, there's

1050
01:14:14.840 --> 01:14:17.720
no problem with being totally non lethal
and not even on lethal, but also

1051
01:14:17.720 --> 01:14:20.600
that like there's no lasting consequence,
like you hit them with a head with

1052
01:14:20.640 --> 01:14:24.680
a metal pipe. Sure, the
chances you kill them may not be a

1053
01:14:24.640 --> 01:14:28.079
one hundred percent by any means,
maybe even under thirty or whatever, but

1054
01:14:28.159 --> 01:14:30.159
the chance that you give them a
concussion that could have lasting effects, you

1055
01:14:30.159 --> 01:14:33.359
know, is certainly there. That
you like, use non lethal force to

1056
01:14:34.079 --> 01:14:36.760
knock them to the ground and they
fall and break their wrists in a way

1057
01:14:36.800 --> 01:14:40.880
that their hand control is never the
same, like there should all these effects.

1058
01:14:40.960 --> 01:14:43.960
Yeah. I mean I took four
students to the hospital over the course

1059
01:14:43.960 --> 01:14:46.640
of a year, you know,
to the emergency room, and two of

1060
01:14:46.640 --> 01:14:50.039
them had some sort of permanent damage, and two of them were pretty much

1061
01:14:50.079 --> 01:14:55.119
fine, you know. But I
have a finger on my left hand that

1062
01:14:55.159 --> 01:14:58.399
I dislocated playing rugby and it will
never quite be the same, and I

1063
01:14:58.399 --> 01:15:00.760
have a little bit of issue playing
guitar with it. Like it's not a

1064
01:15:00.800 --> 01:15:02.720
huge deal. I so gladifly rugby, but it's a lifelong effect. Yeah.

1065
01:15:03.840 --> 01:15:08.479
And so to me, I think
I'm always a little critical of shows

1066
01:15:08.520 --> 01:15:11.800
that don't do that. And the
other thing is, and here this is

1067
01:15:11.800 --> 01:15:15.239
weird because for me, I don't
like gore. I don't like seeing blood

1068
01:15:15.239 --> 01:15:18.640
and guts, especially when it feels
like gratuitous, right. But the flip

1069
01:15:18.680 --> 01:15:21.960
side is I don't like when violence
is portrayed as like clean and neat,

1070
01:15:23.119 --> 01:15:25.920
yeah, you know, And I
found that, like, as hard as

1071
01:15:25.920 --> 01:15:29.359
it is, I've come to appreciate
when like, yeah, like you throw

1072
01:15:29.399 --> 01:15:32.199
it a piece of metal at someone
at a very high speed, it doesn't

1073
01:15:32.239 --> 01:15:34.800
just knock them to the floor,
like there's a gash in their head and

1074
01:15:34.800 --> 01:15:40.279
there's probably a lot of bleeding,
and like it's something I still struggle with

1075
01:15:40.319 --> 01:15:44.800
the fan because I don't want the
gore necessarily, but I do like it

1076
01:15:44.880 --> 01:15:48.880
was always very interesting to me that
like in Marvel the movies, which are

1077
01:15:48.880 --> 01:15:54.479
PG. And PG. Thirteen,
the depiction of violence is much more sanitized

1078
01:15:55.039 --> 01:15:59.920
versus Netflix, where you know,
when like you know, Kingpin like knocks

1079
01:16:00.079 --> 01:16:03.399
one's head off with a card door, you hear this incredibly uncomfortable sound that

1080
01:16:03.600 --> 01:16:10.479
haunted me from a long time afterwards. But like good, right, Yeah,

1081
01:16:10.560 --> 01:16:15.800
It's like the sanitized version isn't really
better, right, It's like that's

1082
01:16:15.880 --> 01:16:19.640
that's painting. It's it's a lie. And I think when it comes to

1083
01:16:19.760 --> 01:16:28.000
things like gore, you know,
is the word gore often to me implies

1084
01:16:28.960 --> 01:16:32.840
a sort of gratuity to you know, a gratuitous nous to it of like

1085
01:16:33.319 --> 01:16:39.039
we are showing this for the effect, you know, for the shock value.

1086
01:16:39.039 --> 01:16:42.600
So someone goes, oh, you
know, and like if that's the

1087
01:16:42.680 --> 01:16:47.479
main purpose, like no, thanks, you know, whereas if it's like,

1088
01:16:47.520 --> 01:16:50.560
no, we're just gonna show this
probably as it's gonna be, but

1089
01:16:50.640 --> 01:16:55.119
we're not gonna linger on it.
You know, We're not going to show

1090
01:16:55.680 --> 01:17:00.439
five disembowelments. You know, We'll
just show the first one and be like,

1091
01:17:00.479 --> 01:17:03.119
okay, now we'll cut to the
crowd reactions, you know. And

1092
01:17:03.159 --> 01:17:09.199
that's one thing that I'll say I
felt like and Or did an interesting job

1093
01:17:09.239 --> 01:17:14.199
of u at the risk of talking
about and Or. Yet again, there

1094
01:17:14.239 --> 01:17:17.760
were a lot of things where there
was there was violence that was referred to

1095
01:17:18.319 --> 01:17:25.199
but wasn't showed graphically in the same
way. Right, maybe you saw someone's

1096
01:17:25.239 --> 01:17:30.760
feet instead of seeing you know,
seeing them them hanging um full, you

1097
01:17:30.760 --> 01:17:34.239
know, like with on their face
or whatever. Right. And at the

1098
01:17:34.279 --> 01:17:38.840
same time, I don't feel like
the show was trying to sanitize these things.

1099
01:17:39.439 --> 01:17:44.439
I think it was just like,
we don't need to show you all

1100
01:17:44.479 --> 01:17:49.720
of them. You know, a
lot of blood and guts or anything for

1101
01:17:49.800 --> 01:17:56.000
you to get the effect right,
to understand what's going on. And so

1102
01:17:56.000 --> 01:17:59.960
so I think sometimes it's like what
you show and what you don't show.

1103
01:18:01.159 --> 01:18:04.600
There's there's an element of art to
that, right where you can make sure

1104
01:18:04.600 --> 01:18:11.399
it's clear that something is lethal,
that something is painful in a particular way

1105
01:18:11.680 --> 01:18:18.000
without being as explicit, but that
that lack of explicitness isn't a way of

1106
01:18:18.079 --> 01:18:24.319
kind of dancing around it. It's
just a particular way of portraying it,

1107
01:18:25.199 --> 01:18:28.920
right. And certainly, I mean, like I have eight million problems with

1108
01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:32.560
how like Hollywood and the government sides
what ages should or shouldn't be able to

1109
01:18:32.560 --> 01:18:36.479
watch things. Yeah, but at
a fundamental level, I am bothered by

1110
01:18:36.479 --> 01:18:40.960
the idea that you can show kids
violence, you just can't show kids the

1111
01:18:41.000 --> 01:18:45.199
consequences of violence. Yeah, that
seems very bad, just objectively, just

1112
01:18:45.239 --> 01:18:49.159
like what are we doing here?
You know? And then in terms of

1113
01:18:49.159 --> 01:18:53.079
subjective like I think what you and
I are talking about is both kind of

1114
01:18:53.119 --> 01:18:55.199
what we think is, you know, the better thing to do, but

1115
01:18:55.279 --> 01:18:59.319
also just like what we enjoy,
Like there are people the actually coffins of

1116
01:18:59.359 --> 01:19:00.880
the world, and God bless them
who love the gore. I have no

1117
01:19:00.960 --> 01:19:06.359
problem with it. To me,
sanitizing violence is I think a society not

1118
01:19:06.479 --> 01:19:11.680
great thing to do. I think
overly like exploiting, like, yeah,

1119
01:19:11.720 --> 01:19:14.239
maybe you can get into some not
great territory, but I'm a lot more

1120
01:19:14.239 --> 01:19:16.239
comfortable. I don't want to watch
it, but I'm a lot more comfortable

1121
01:19:16.279 --> 01:19:20.479
with that happening. And then with
a purely sanitize Yeah, I haven't really

1122
01:19:20.479 --> 01:19:25.079
given too much thought to that in
terms of like any whatever consequences there are

1123
01:19:25.119 --> 01:19:28.079
of it, Like I just generally
find it gross and don't want to watch

1124
01:19:28.079 --> 01:19:30.000
it that much, but like you
do, you you know, yeah,

1125
01:19:30.039 --> 01:19:33.880
exactly, Well, There's eight million
other things I could bring up, but

1126
01:19:33.920 --> 01:19:38.079
I want this to not become a
three hour podcast. Are there any other

1127
01:19:38.159 --> 01:19:40.399
kind of big things that you wanted
to bring up in terms of like issues

1128
01:19:40.439 --> 01:19:44.159
you feel like we kept returning to, or questions we kept going over or

1129
01:19:44.199 --> 01:19:47.600
anything like that. I guess in
the spirit of this podcast, I had

1130
01:19:47.680 --> 01:19:53.840
absolutely no notes or ideas of what
I wanted to talk about going in.

1131
01:19:55.000 --> 01:19:59.720
You know, I'll say that,
Yeah, there is something that I guess

1132
01:19:59.720 --> 01:20:02.760
I'd like to kind of pivot to, sure, which is that, Um,

1133
01:20:03.319 --> 01:20:10.399
I've I've really loved being on this
podcast and having all these conversations with

1134
01:20:10.439 --> 01:20:16.600
you, and it has really helped
me think about a lot of things in

1135
01:20:16.680 --> 01:20:25.359
ways that I might not have otherwise
thought about them. There there is also

1136
01:20:25.479 --> 01:20:30.239
though, this like I want to
write my own stories more I used to,

1137
01:20:30.479 --> 01:20:38.279
and then I I really haven't written
almost any stories since I started being

1138
01:20:38.319 --> 01:20:44.000
on the podcast, and I feel
like there there is something there where it's

1139
01:20:44.039 --> 01:20:46.239
not just um, you know,
that's kind of how my life has been.

1140
01:20:46.840 --> 01:20:49.560
Some of that is, right,
some of it is like, yeah,

1141
01:20:49.600 --> 01:20:53.439
you know, I mean I've got
other stuff going on. I've moved

1142
01:20:53.479 --> 01:20:58.239
several times, Like we've had COVID
around, right, Like, there's been

1143
01:20:58.279 --> 01:21:01.359
stuff going on. So I want
to make it clear. I'm not saying

1144
01:21:01.359 --> 01:21:06.560
like the podcast is necessarily the reason
I haven't created new stories, but I

1145
01:21:06.600 --> 01:21:14.960
do think that there's something to be
said for I think it's difficult to kind

1146
01:21:15.000 --> 01:21:23.159
of do critique or really think about
other stories a lot and then also kind

1147
01:21:23.159 --> 01:21:29.119
of in the same time period be
creating news stories. Yeah. I think

1148
01:21:29.159 --> 01:21:31.640
it's fair, and it's kind of
because it's like two very different ways of

1149
01:21:32.000 --> 01:21:39.119
approaching storytelling. One is I mean, it's one thing to kind of just

1150
01:21:39.119 --> 01:21:44.600
just be absorbing some but then to
kind of really think critically in certain ways,

1151
01:21:44.760 --> 01:21:47.800
I think I think it can make
it hard, certainly for me,

1152
01:21:47.840 --> 01:21:54.720
because I think one of my biggest
challenges as a storyteller is being kind of

1153
01:21:54.720 --> 01:22:00.239
too critical of the story before it
even exists, you know. And and

1154
01:22:00.439 --> 01:22:04.039
that kind of goes with the idea
of, like, you know, watching

1155
01:22:04.079 --> 01:22:06.920
something. Some of my favorite things
that I've watched are things that I had

1156
01:22:06.960 --> 01:22:13.520
the least expectations for, you know, And so I think kind of creating

1157
01:22:13.560 --> 01:22:19.920
too many expectations in terms of thinking
about thinking about kind of how a story

1158
01:22:20.319 --> 01:22:28.479
might impact people. I think there's
value to that and value to understanding kind

1159
01:22:28.479 --> 01:22:31.560
of the consequences of the stories we
tell. But I think that also can

1160
01:22:31.640 --> 01:22:36.920
kind of be a little bit of
a freezing thing. And so I understand

1161
01:22:38.039 --> 01:22:43.880
when there are writers or you know, storytellers who basically don't want to engage

1162
01:22:43.880 --> 01:22:51.479
a whole lot with the discussion around
what they're creating. You know. Yeah,

1163
01:22:51.479 --> 01:22:55.880
it makes fun sense to me,
and I'll especially the idea that like,

1164
01:22:55.880 --> 01:22:59.199
when you engage in the critique of
something, it just gets into your

1165
01:22:59.239 --> 01:23:03.039
head. Yeah. I love cooking
shows with a passion and Top Chef is

1166
01:23:03.079 --> 01:23:08.239
by far my favorite, and it
is fun watching these people who are incredibly

1167
01:23:08.279 --> 01:23:12.359
knowledgeable at food dissect food and at
times be very critical of how it's cooked.

1168
01:23:12.960 --> 01:23:15.279
And I also know that the first
couple of years I watched it,

1169
01:23:15.680 --> 01:23:17.840
I didn't want to cook anything because
now in my head were all these things

1170
01:23:17.840 --> 01:23:19.960
about like, oh yeah, I
know, like I remember that, like

1171
01:23:20.199 --> 01:23:24.960
how mad this judge gets when this
thing happens or when that thing happens.

1172
01:23:25.000 --> 01:23:27.560
Like I don't want to do that, you know, not even like that

1173
01:23:27.600 --> 01:23:30.039
I worry about other people critiquing,
but just that I'd be in my head

1174
01:23:30.039 --> 01:23:31.600
about it and I had to really
kind of separate that a little bit of

1175
01:23:31.680 --> 01:23:35.159
like giving myself some space. And
so yeah, I think that makes a

1176
01:23:35.159 --> 01:23:40.199
lot of sense. And I think
for me as a writer, and I

1177
01:23:40.199 --> 01:23:43.279
think you're kind of getting to like
making some comments about what you see for

1178
01:23:43.279 --> 01:23:44.920
the future, and I want to
give you that chance. But I'll just

1179
01:23:44.920 --> 01:23:49.039
say coming in response as well,
I love looking at all this media critically.

1180
01:23:49.840 --> 01:23:54.239
But I will say that I think
if there's one hard thing I think

1181
01:23:54.239 --> 01:23:58.079
about being a podcaster about the media
is that it makes it harder to watch

1182
01:23:58.119 --> 01:24:00.319
media sometimes. Yeah, and for
me, it's it's for three things.

1183
01:24:00.319 --> 01:24:05.840
It's the a that if I'm watching
something that I think is enjoyable but that

1184
01:24:05.880 --> 01:24:09.800
I don't think is ever going to
be something I can talk about a podcast,

1185
01:24:09.880 --> 01:24:13.199
it feels a bit like a waste
of time, which I don't love.

1186
01:24:13.239 --> 01:24:15.560
And sometimes I pushed through. And
so I was watching Too Hot to

1187
01:24:15.600 --> 01:24:19.000
Handle earlier today, which is the
trashiest of trashy dating shows. It's all

1188
01:24:19.000 --> 01:24:23.800
sorts of problems, but I'm you
know, I'm letting myself enjoy some trash,

1189
01:24:23.920 --> 01:24:26.640
you know. And then a second
thing is that I think, like

1190
01:24:26.680 --> 01:24:30.840
it's hard to turn off the analysis
and just watch, and it's hard to

1191
01:24:30.880 --> 01:24:33.600
just be able to get yourself fully
immersed in a story, and it certainly

1192
01:24:33.640 --> 01:24:38.760
happens, and I think even more
in some ways the things I'm most impressed

1193
01:24:38.760 --> 01:24:42.119
by or where I'm like, oh
my god, that was so good.

1194
01:24:42.520 --> 01:24:45.119
I really want a podcast about it. But I'm gonna have to go back

1195
01:24:45.119 --> 01:24:47.720
and watch it again because I got
too sucked into the story to even think

1196
01:24:47.760 --> 01:24:51.000
about those kind of things along the
way. And the third thing, and

1197
01:24:51.039 --> 01:24:54.079
this is kind of you know,
this is an ethical thing. It's just

1198
01:24:54.079 --> 01:24:56.760
a kind of preference thing, and
well it's tied in all sorts of business

1199
01:24:56.760 --> 01:25:00.720
stuff, but I just I hate
watching things week to week and the world

1200
01:25:00.720 --> 01:25:03.680
of podcasting and not even not either
word of the podcasting, which the world

1201
01:25:03.680 --> 01:25:08.720
of content is such that if I
chose to wait until a show all twelve

1202
01:25:08.760 --> 01:25:12.439
episodes are out three months later,
you know, am we have to just

1203
01:25:12.479 --> 01:25:15.720
dodge spoilers like crazy, but also
be like it's just you've missed now.

1204
01:25:15.840 --> 01:25:18.159
I'm like, Okay, I finished
the show. Let's talk about that cool

1205
01:25:18.199 --> 01:25:21.560
thing that happened in episode two and
I went around you is like episode two,

1206
01:25:21.600 --> 01:25:25.720
we talked about that three months ago, right, So yeah, So

1207
01:25:25.760 --> 01:25:30.640
it's always in which like I definitely
think podcasting changes the way you look at

1208
01:25:30.680 --> 01:25:34.000
media, and I think I can
it's definitely a reason why sometimes I've wanted

1209
01:25:34.000 --> 01:25:36.840
to take a break and can understand
like different views of like yeah, maybe

1210
01:25:36.840 --> 01:25:42.479
I'm gonna change my approach to some
of this. Yeah, And it's to

1211
01:25:42.600 --> 01:25:45.720
me the type of thing that's also
not like this is good, this is

1212
01:25:45.720 --> 01:25:50.119
bad. It's more this is different, right, Yeah. I In my

1213
01:25:50.199 --> 01:25:56.880
first book, Way of the Poker
Warrior, I wrote a chapter that was

1214
01:25:56.920 --> 01:26:00.800
basically about kind of like the consequences
of making something your job where I was

1215
01:26:00.800 --> 01:26:06.760
talking about taekwondo and how once I
became a taekwondo instructor, like professionally,

1216
01:26:09.039 --> 01:26:15.920
the feeling of training was different,
Right. I couldn't experience just like being

1217
01:26:16.000 --> 01:26:21.439
a student the same way anymore because
all of my training was also you know,

1218
01:26:21.720 --> 01:26:26.960
it was designed to make me a
better teacher at the same time,

1219
01:26:27.039 --> 01:26:30.439
and there was all this responsibility.
It was it was like being a taekwondo

1220
01:26:30.479 --> 01:26:34.079
adult as opposed to being like a
kid. Right. And you know,

1221
01:26:34.079 --> 01:26:36.960
the same thing with poker, where
it's like, poker can be a very

1222
01:26:38.000 --> 01:26:44.319
fun game to play, you know, with friends or with strangers as a

1223
01:26:44.520 --> 01:26:46.039
way of you know, you might
win some money, you might lose some

1224
01:26:46.079 --> 01:26:49.000
money, but at the end of
the day, like the point is that

1225
01:26:49.039 --> 01:26:53.439
you have fun and maybe in the
long run it's profitable, but it's like

1226
01:26:53.479 --> 01:26:58.359
it's not such a big deal.
And when you know, when you make

1227
01:26:58.399 --> 01:27:00.359
it a career, though, it's
like, well, you know, every

1228
01:27:00.479 --> 01:27:05.960
day is work, right, It's
it's work in a different way than going

1229
01:27:06.000 --> 01:27:13.039
to play possibly being profitable but not
really worrying about it, not relying on

1230
01:27:13.079 --> 01:27:18.079
it. And you know, similarly, like watching a show and knowing,

1231
01:27:18.199 --> 01:27:23.159
Okay, I'm I'm gonna want to
talk about this. You know, if

1232
01:27:23.199 --> 01:27:26.199
I were to do it the best
that I thought I could do it,

1233
01:27:26.680 --> 01:27:30.680
I would probably watch everything once,
trying to be kind of free of expectations

1234
01:27:30.800 --> 01:27:35.479
and just like kind of soak it
up, and then afterwards I might write

1235
01:27:35.479 --> 01:27:39.279
a little bit about it, take
down some notes, and then I would

1236
01:27:39.279 --> 01:27:45.319
watch it again and try and note
some details, and then I would probably

1237
01:27:45.359 --> 01:27:49.039
go and see, you know,
maybe kind of some of the conversation that

1238
01:27:49.159 --> 01:27:51.760
was going around it, and then
I would come back and watch it a

1239
01:27:51.800 --> 01:27:56.960
third time with kind of the understanding
of that conversation, and then I would

1240
01:27:56.960 --> 01:28:00.199
try and synthesize all of that into
kind of some of what I want wanted

1241
01:28:00.239 --> 01:28:02.159
to say. That sounds like I
would end up doing a ten hour podcast,

1242
01:28:02.199 --> 01:28:06.800
and you know what, I probably
would, probably, especially if we

1243
01:28:06.800 --> 01:28:11.199
were both doing it that way,
And you know, there's an extent to

1244
01:28:11.239 --> 01:28:14.960
which I usually would watch the thing
and then like maybe you and I would

1245
01:28:15.000 --> 01:28:16.920
talk about it a little bit and
then we would do the podcast. And

1246
01:28:17.680 --> 01:28:20.880
some things I would watch two times. I mean, I remember, I

1247
01:28:20.920 --> 01:28:27.039
think that last episode of Mandalorian season
two I might have watched four times before

1248
01:28:27.079 --> 01:28:31.359
we recorded on it because I was
just like, it's so good and good

1249
01:28:31.399 --> 01:28:35.079
in a particular way that I wanted
to like re experience it, right,

1250
01:28:36.279 --> 01:28:44.359
But yeah, it's it does take
something that I love, which is watching

1251
01:28:44.399 --> 01:28:48.039
a show or watching a movie,
and then adding a layer of work to

1252
01:28:48.079 --> 01:28:51.079
it that does kind of transform it. And for me, it's less about

1253
01:28:51.560 --> 01:28:55.880
thinking about what I want to say
about it, and it's more when I

1254
01:28:55.960 --> 01:29:00.760
then start hearing kind of the conversations
that other people are about a thing,

1255
01:29:00.880 --> 01:29:04.880
which is something I'm interested in later. But that's one of the things about

1256
01:29:04.880 --> 01:29:12.199
the week to week that is so
kind of awkward for me, is like

1257
01:29:12.560 --> 01:29:16.319
I don't want to be having someone
else's thoughts in my head while I'm still

1258
01:29:16.359 --> 01:29:21.000
experiencing the thing, you know,
and the thing being the whole season or

1259
01:29:21.039 --> 01:29:25.399
perhaps the whole show. Like I
feel like I want to have my experience

1260
01:29:25.840 --> 01:29:29.640
of the story, and then I'm
curious, Okay, what was your experience?

1261
01:29:29.840 --> 01:29:33.199
Oh interesting, let's talk about that. Yeah, And I'm not as

1262
01:29:33.199 --> 01:29:35.800
extreme as you are, but I'm
definitely part way there. And I will

1263
01:29:35.840 --> 01:29:40.399
say that WandaVision was a big thing
that pushed me in your direction. Yeah,

1264
01:29:40.439 --> 01:29:45.479
and this podcast is part of the
stranded Panda network of podcasts a lot

1265
01:29:45.520 --> 01:29:48.560
of great they're all great podcasts.
Definitely check them all out strandapanda dot com.

1266
01:29:48.640 --> 01:29:51.960
The flagship of that is the MCU
Cast, which is if you're a

1267
01:29:51.960 --> 01:29:56.439
fan of Marvel stuff, is a
fantastic podcast, definitely worth checking out.

1268
01:29:57.039 --> 01:30:00.960
Three wonderful people run that, all
of whom and guests on here. But

1269
01:30:00.600 --> 01:30:04.159
one of the things that they love
to do is to not only discuss like

1270
01:30:04.199 --> 01:30:08.199
what just happened, but then to
go deep in a speculation about what's coming

1271
01:30:08.239 --> 01:30:13.119
next. And one division especially like
there were all of these kind of things

1272
01:30:13.159 --> 01:30:17.000
that people were picking up on as
possible, like hidden clues about and one

1273
01:30:17.039 --> 01:30:21.560
of the running jokes, fo,
yeah, is this Mephisto exactly? Who?

1274
01:30:21.600 --> 01:30:24.920
Like I said, like a devil
creature in the MCU I don't know

1275
01:30:25.039 --> 01:30:29.239
much. Don't give me ten angry
emails who it is, please save it

1276
01:30:29.239 --> 01:30:31.439
for them. But the point being, like I got so sucked into that

1277
01:30:31.439 --> 01:30:34.359
that I found like I was looking
for certain things instead of getting just to

1278
01:30:34.399 --> 01:30:39.039
enjoy the thing, right, And
yeah, I think that's a part of

1279
01:30:39.079 --> 01:30:43.239
like I like hearing people's perspective,
Like what I love is like, let's

1280
01:30:43.279 --> 01:30:45.600
talk about the thing, and like, if there's a perspective you had,

1281
01:30:45.760 --> 01:30:48.680
cool, let me hear that.
But yeah, it's it's when it becomes

1282
01:30:48.680 --> 01:30:51.000
how is this going to change and
effect the way you're seeing this thing going

1283
01:30:51.000 --> 01:30:55.239
forward? Yeah, I definitely get
that. Yeah, And I'd just like

1284
01:30:55.319 --> 01:30:58.439
to say, you know, a
few words about Stranded Panda and the you

1285
01:30:58.479 --> 01:31:00.239
know, Stranded Panda Network. I
mean, I found it to be a

1286
01:31:00.680 --> 01:31:05.119
delightful I guess I still find it
to be, but kind of not let

1287
01:31:05.159 --> 01:31:13.760
me rephrase this. I found the
Stranded Panda Network to be a delightful group

1288
01:31:13.760 --> 01:31:17.279
of people who were enjoying a lot
of the same things I was enjoying in

1289
01:31:17.319 --> 01:31:25.199
a way that was fairly different from
how I generally enjoy them. And for

1290
01:31:25.359 --> 01:31:29.359
a period of time I enjoyed that
and going on you know, their twitch

1291
01:31:29.640 --> 01:31:38.520
Stranded Panda TV and really enjoying interacting
and being part of that. But it's

1292
01:31:38.600 --> 01:31:43.680
not the primary way that I like
to enjoy stories. And you know the

1293
01:31:43.720 --> 01:31:48.960
fact that everyone so dialed into all
the previews and all the speculation, it

1294
01:31:49.000 --> 01:31:54.119
just ends up not being really compatible
with the way that I enjoy watching,

1295
01:31:54.159 --> 01:31:59.319
you know, did I enjoy watching
or reading Stories? And as a result,

1296
01:31:59.600 --> 01:32:00.960
you know, I even I saw
that they were streaming the other day

1297
01:32:00.960 --> 01:32:02.880
and I was like, oh,
let me, let me see whether I

1298
01:32:02.880 --> 01:32:06.000
can sneak in here without and then
they're like and in black panther, I'm

1299
01:32:06.000 --> 01:32:09.479
like no, and I'm like damn, yeah, you know, and it's

1300
01:32:09.520 --> 01:32:13.520
like, that's that's not them doing
anything wrong. They're actually really great about

1301
01:32:13.560 --> 01:32:17.000
trying to um keep the spoilers to
a minimum in the in the Facebook group.

1302
01:32:17.159 --> 01:32:19.479
But you know, for someone who's
not going to see something until forty

1303
01:32:19.479 --> 01:32:24.079
five days after it's released, it's
you know, it's it's a little too

1304
01:32:24.119 --> 01:32:29.119
acrobatic to constantly be trying to dodge
spoilers and um, you know. And

1305
01:32:29.119 --> 01:32:30.520
and so I I kind of you
know, detached from that, but it's

1306
01:32:30.520 --> 01:32:34.079
it's not from any kind of like
lack of love for the people. I

1307
01:32:34.520 --> 01:32:39.199
think, um, everybody involved in
it like really does a great job.

1308
01:32:39.560 --> 01:32:43.279
And if that is how you want
to experience stories, definitely, you know,

1309
01:32:43.399 --> 01:32:45.880
check out the Facebook group, check
out the twitch, check out the

1310
01:32:45.920 --> 01:32:49.399
YouTube, um, you know,
and the podcasts of course. Yeah,

1311
01:32:49.600 --> 01:32:54.119
And like I'll say, and also
I have the same feelings from my best

1312
01:32:54.119 --> 01:32:56.840
friends in the world. I got
through Stranded Panda. A lot of my

1313
01:32:56.960 --> 01:33:00.199
listeners I know I got through Stranded
Panda, continue to get and continue to

1314
01:33:00.239 --> 01:33:01.640
be very happy to be in that
network. And it's funny though, because

1315
01:33:01.640 --> 01:33:04.640
it also doesn't just happen there like
I have. In the last six months

1316
01:33:04.720 --> 01:33:08.600
or so, really made a lot
of great friends in Star Wars TikTok,

1317
01:33:08.960 --> 01:33:13.920
which I'm so glad for, all
of whom have been going crazy, all

1318
01:33:13.920 --> 01:33:16.520
of whom have been getting super excited
about all the things that are apparently revealed

1319
01:33:16.760 --> 01:33:20.880
in the bad Batch. She's into
spoiler spoiler. You know that. I

1320
01:33:21.000 --> 01:33:26.239
love that speaker. By the way, spoiler instead of trailer. That's exactly

1321
01:33:26.239 --> 01:33:28.600
what it is. You're right,
and I'm just like, no, no,

1322
01:33:28.600 --> 01:33:31.399
no, stop, stop stop.
See I get that. So we're

1323
01:33:31.439 --> 01:33:33.880
coming up on We've got a couple
more things to talk about, and I

1324
01:33:34.039 --> 01:33:38.800
want this to go above two hours. So I think you were kind of

1325
01:33:38.880 --> 01:33:41.560
leading to something you wanted to say
about in terms of all the stuff about

1326
01:33:41.600 --> 01:33:45.159
what the podcast has done. But
you're writing and stuff like that. So

1327
01:33:45.199 --> 01:33:46.680
if you want to say that now, great, Otherwise I will kind of

1328
01:33:46.720 --> 01:33:49.960
take us in a direction as well. If I've totally misinterpreted you, yeah,

1329
01:33:50.039 --> 01:33:56.920
no, I'll say that now basically
I am going to be podcasting less

1330
01:33:56.960 --> 01:34:02.039
about media exactly what my plan is
for next year, which might be this

1331
01:34:02.119 --> 01:34:04.600
year when you're listening to this,
I don't know, people listen to things

1332
01:34:04.600 --> 01:34:11.359
whenever. I'm not one hundred percent
sure. I definitely want to write some

1333
01:34:11.479 --> 01:34:15.920
stories. I'm not certain whether those
will be stories that I published under my

1334
01:34:15.960 --> 01:34:20.720
own name or under various incognito pseudonyms, but if they are published under my

1335
01:34:20.760 --> 01:34:26.840
own name, you'll be able to
find them on or find out about them

1336
01:34:27.000 --> 01:34:31.840
on Zenmadman dot com, which is
my website which still currently just makes a

1337
01:34:31.840 --> 01:34:35.520
bunch of Daredevil references and has pictures
of me from the you know, two

1338
01:34:35.560 --> 01:34:41.680
thousand and six time period. But
you know, I expect to be doing

1339
01:34:41.720 --> 01:34:46.159
some more with that. I am
a poker player by trade at the moment,

1340
01:34:46.359 --> 01:34:51.520
and I will keep doing that for
certainly for the next year. Possibly

1341
01:34:51.880 --> 01:34:57.560
we will do some I mean I
will probably be making some YouTube videos and

1342
01:34:57.680 --> 01:35:01.920
streaming on Twitch as Zen Madman and
Zen Madman Poker on on YouTube, um,

1343
01:35:02.239 --> 01:35:06.560
and maybe we'll do some podcasting related
to that. If if people are

1344
01:35:06.640 --> 01:35:11.159
interested in that, I'd be happy
to hear that. Um. And if

1345
01:35:11.199 --> 01:35:15.960
people aren't, that's fine. It's
a fairly different um kind of subject,

1346
01:35:16.039 --> 01:35:20.880
right, um. And then also
like chess somehow maybe fits in there all

1347
01:35:20.880 --> 01:35:26.199
of it. I'd say the way
it mostly relates to superhero ethics is to

1348
01:35:26.239 --> 01:35:30.119
me, it's kind of all about
making decisions, um, you know,

1349
01:35:30.159 --> 01:35:34.000
to me the heart of superhero ethics
um and where where ethics isn't like my

1350
01:35:34.039 --> 01:35:38.119
favorite word for this, but I
understand that it's you know, the one

1351
01:35:38.159 --> 01:35:44.239
people use um is like, it's
about what decisions do people make in what

1352
01:35:44.479 --> 01:35:46.880
scenarios? And what do we think
about those decisions? You know, like

1353
01:35:47.000 --> 01:35:49.760
do we think those are are good
decisions? Or do we think those are

1354
01:35:49.760 --> 01:35:54.159
not the best decisions? And you
know, poker and chess are all about

1355
01:35:54.239 --> 01:35:56.960
you know, what do we know
about the situation and what do we think

1356
01:35:57.039 --> 01:36:00.840
is the best decision. There there's
a fairly clear object of you know,

1357
01:36:00.439 --> 01:36:05.880
trying to win, Whereas in life
some people approach life that way. I'm

1358
01:36:05.960 --> 01:36:11.319
not super fond of that approach of
decisions in life. If I were,

1359
01:36:11.640 --> 01:36:15.720
I'd probably have more money, but
I don't know if i'd be as happy,

1360
01:36:15.840 --> 01:36:17.600
and I don't know if the people
around me would be as happy.

1361
01:36:19.079 --> 01:36:21.119
Makes a lot of sense, Yeah, And I think I really appreciate you

1362
01:36:21.199 --> 01:36:25.319
saying all that. As I say
at the beginning, I don't know exactly

1363
01:36:25.399 --> 01:36:28.920
what the future of this podcast is
going to be. Star Wars Universe podcast

1364
01:36:29.000 --> 01:36:30.960
is definitely continue a week to week. I think we have a couple of

1365
01:36:30.960 --> 01:36:36.359
episodes already lined up for January and
February. I think what will likely happen

1366
01:36:36.640 --> 01:36:40.079
is that I'm going to sort of
put some feelers out to find out other

1367
01:36:40.119 --> 01:36:43.840
people who are initiating me in guests
some kind of time. If someone wants

1368
01:36:43.840 --> 01:36:45.680
to step up and be a co
host, then we may well do that.

1369
01:36:46.239 --> 01:36:48.359
But I think I've been recognizing,
like, not even just with Paul

1370
01:36:48.399 --> 01:36:55.199
stepping aside, but I definitely have
been going through some superhero burnout. I

1371
01:36:55.319 --> 01:36:59.079
love the MCU, I'm enjoying some
of the DC stuff. There's a lot

1372
01:36:59.119 --> 01:37:00.199
of it, though, and it's
a little bit overwhelming. And I've kind

1373
01:37:00.239 --> 01:37:03.359
of noticed how much of that media
I've been watching as well as like and

1374
01:37:03.399 --> 01:37:08.399
I think the listener numbers for this
podcast are down a good deal over where

1375
01:37:08.399 --> 01:37:11.680
they were maybe a year or two
ago. Part of that is I think

1376
01:37:11.720 --> 01:37:15.479
that the super these Star Wars podcast
numbers have gone up quite a good deal.

1377
01:37:15.880 --> 01:37:17.880
And part of that is I think
that we're putting out much more recent

1378
01:37:17.920 --> 01:37:20.800
content with Star Wars and the way
we're not doing with this podcast in the

1379
01:37:20.800 --> 01:37:24.560
same way. Part of that maybe
there's a lot of you who enjoy the

1380
01:37:24.560 --> 01:37:27.439
things I have to say, but
once a month of all my ms and

1381
01:37:27.920 --> 01:37:30.600
os and heavy breathing and the like
is all you can take totally the gin

1382
01:37:30.640 --> 01:37:32.800
of it too, And so if
you're doing Star Wars, but I think

1383
01:37:33.079 --> 01:37:34.920
it's a good chance for us to
take a look at and go like,

1384
01:37:34.960 --> 01:37:40.880
Okay, well what else can we
do? So there's definitely going to be

1385
01:37:40.920 --> 01:37:44.520
more podcasting that I do, sometimes
in partnership with Paul, sometimes in partnership

1386
01:37:44.520 --> 01:37:47.479
with others. It's going to be
connected to media in some ways. I

1387
01:37:47.560 --> 01:37:51.359
may also wind up being a close
partner with Paul or like a co host

1388
01:37:51.479 --> 01:37:56.720
or a frequent guest or an infrequent
guest on the Poker and critical thinking and

1389
01:37:56.760 --> 01:37:59.960
decision making and chests and all that
and learning. We'll see where that goes.

1390
01:38:00.760 --> 01:38:01.920
But I would say kind of ID
say two things. One is like

1391
01:38:02.279 --> 01:38:05.960
keep your eyes open. January might
be a bit of a quiet month while

1392
01:38:06.000 --> 01:38:09.199
we start to kind of like figure
some things out. But I said,

1393
01:38:09.199 --> 01:38:11.760
we will have at least at least
two podcasts will go out. It might

1394
01:38:11.800 --> 01:38:14.880
be that this goes to a once
every other week format for a while.

1395
01:38:14.920 --> 01:38:16.880
It might be that it's kind of
a bonus thing format for a while.

1396
01:38:17.800 --> 01:38:23.520
But especially like I said, heroes
look for accountability and heroes look for buy

1397
01:38:23.560 --> 01:38:26.520
in. So for those of you
who are listening, I would love to

1398
01:38:26.520 --> 01:38:29.119
hear from you, let me know
what would you like to hear more of

1399
01:38:29.159 --> 01:38:32.960
in twenty twenty three. If that's
keep zero Ethics exactly the same, you

1400
01:38:33.199 --> 01:38:35.600
really love it as it is great
if you're like, yeah, it would

1401
01:38:35.600 --> 01:38:39.279
be interesting for you to go in
some new directions and maybe, like one

1402
01:38:39.319 --> 01:38:42.880
idea might be that like once a
month we just do an episode on a

1403
01:38:42.880 --> 01:38:46.239
particular topic and talk about all the
media that kind of fits into that,

1404
01:38:46.399 --> 01:38:48.960
or like maybe once a month or
once every two weeks we just do a

1405
01:38:49.039 --> 01:38:53.600
roundup of the big media that came
out in that time, so it's always

1406
01:38:53.680 --> 01:38:57.479
much more current and talk about what
are the big questions it raised. It

1407
01:38:57.560 --> 01:38:59.800
might be that it's just like,
yeah, every two weeks, we'll find

1408
01:38:59.840 --> 01:39:01.239
some thing to talk about and see
what it is. Paul and I were

1409
01:39:01.239 --> 01:39:04.119
going back and forth on some ideas
about doing like a deep dive into the

1410
01:39:04.119 --> 01:39:09.199
Wire or into Jericho, which the
TV show we love that kind of in

1411
01:39:09.279 --> 01:39:12.319
many ways like a fairly unknown show, and it's a network TV with some

1412
01:39:12.359 --> 01:39:15.439
of the problems of network TV,
but it also is kind of a perfect

1413
01:39:15.479 --> 01:39:17.960
summation of all the issues that we
talk about on this show, except maybe

1414
01:39:18.000 --> 01:39:23.319
the graphicness of violence, but that's
because it's network TV in the nineties and

1415
01:39:23.680 --> 01:39:27.239
in the early two thousands. So
I don't know exactly what direction is going

1416
01:39:27.319 --> 01:39:30.000
to go, but I would love
to hear from you. As always,

1417
01:39:30.039 --> 01:39:31.840
The Ethical Panda dot com has all
the information. You can find me on

1418
01:39:31.920 --> 01:39:34.960
Facebook, on Twitter, you can
find me going to my discord which I'll

1419
01:39:34.960 --> 01:39:40.520
publish, and you can find me
just send me an email Matthew at the

1420
01:39:40.600 --> 01:39:44.680
Ethical Panda dot Com. Not sure
exactly what it's going to be. I

1421
01:39:44.800 --> 01:39:46.640
do know that finding ways to pay
for all of this because there is a

1422
01:39:46.640 --> 01:39:49.399
lot of time and equipment and money
I'm sticking into it, and that's not

1423
01:39:49.439 --> 01:39:53.439
gonna be are sustainable, and so
there will be a patriotic of some kind

1424
01:39:53.479 --> 01:39:56.399
that we're trying to build in It
probably will be up and going by the

1425
01:39:56.399 --> 01:39:59.359
time this is up. This episode
goes live, so check that out.

1426
01:40:00.039 --> 01:40:03.039
And we're gonna be trying to make
bonus content. You're gonna hear the bonus

1427
01:40:03.079 --> 01:40:08.319
content for this episode after the ads
and final credits and stuff like that.

1428
01:40:08.359 --> 01:40:12.439
But but the future, those will
probably be behind the Patreon wall. But

1429
01:40:12.640 --> 01:40:15.079
it's gonna be a very low wall, like three dollars a month or something

1430
01:40:15.119 --> 01:40:17.239
like that, So I don't There's
a lot of stuff that I don't know

1431
01:40:17.279 --> 01:40:20.039
it about though yet, so please
send it to an email, send it

1432
01:40:20.119 --> 01:40:24.920
some ideas. This is a time
of contemplation, consideration, finding the new

1433
01:40:24.920 --> 01:40:28.000
direction, and I'd love to hear
from you. So really, I'm half

1434
01:40:28.000 --> 01:40:30.720
of myself. I just want to
say thank you to all of you for

1435
01:40:30.840 --> 01:40:33.000
being great listeners throughout this entire process. Thank you for being a part of

1436
01:40:33.000 --> 01:40:35.680
this whole project. And I'll let
Paul do kind of a goodbye sign off

1437
01:40:35.680 --> 01:40:40.319
as well. But just whatever direction
we go in, I know that you

1438
01:40:40.359 --> 01:40:44.640
all have sustained us for literally more
than six years. You've made this project

1439
01:40:44.680 --> 01:40:47.199
so exciting, so interesting, and
I've learned and grown so much from it,

1440
01:40:47.520 --> 01:40:50.600
and I just want to say thank
you. You heard it here.

1441
01:40:50.600 --> 01:40:55.760
First, Matthew wants to build a
wall, but it's going to be a

1442
01:40:55.760 --> 01:41:00.640
low wall. There. Go on
a more serious note, wherever we do

1443
01:41:00.720 --> 01:41:05.840
go from here, it's been an
honor with you know, doing all this

1444
01:41:06.000 --> 01:41:11.359
with you, Matthew, and with
all the guests. I've just had such

1445
01:41:11.359 --> 01:41:16.399
a good time with the conversations themselves, and then also hearing feedback and you

1446
01:41:16.439 --> 01:41:21.760
know, knowing people we're listening,
which if you're you know, if you're

1447
01:41:21.760 --> 01:41:26.840
trying to transmit the plants to the
death stars, is very useful, but

1448
01:41:26.920 --> 01:41:32.079
you don't want it if you're trying
to escape an imperial work camp. I

1449
01:41:32.119 --> 01:41:35.680
think that's a very good summation of
the things we've learned entirely from Star Wars.

1450
01:41:35.760 --> 01:41:39.840
But yeah, exactly, I will
say. By the way, also,

1451
01:41:39.880 --> 01:41:42.960
I've been talking for a while about
some kind of family feud episode we

1452
01:41:43.079 --> 01:41:45.680
get a lot of the common guests. That will definitely happens twenty three.

1453
01:41:45.840 --> 01:41:48.680
We'll let you know, but for
now we're gonna go into a last set

1454
01:41:48.680 --> 01:41:53.720
of commercials and closing music and then
this episode this to quote the Kings and

1455
01:41:53.720 --> 01:41:56.840
Trio, this exit will be slightly
felonious because we'll have a little bit of

1456
01:41:56.880 --> 01:42:01.199
bonus content coming to you right after
this. Send Madman out, Ethical Panda

1457
01:42:01.399 --> 01:42:04.920
in. All right, Paul,
So last question go throw at you.

1458
01:42:05.199 --> 01:42:08.520
And this is the kind of question
that I know you like some preparation for.

1459
01:42:08.840 --> 01:42:13.720
So my apologies, but what are
some of the pieces of media that

1460
01:42:13.800 --> 01:42:17.800
you think, like if people wanted
to either get a really good idea of

1461
01:42:17.880 --> 01:42:23.439
your position on these questions, or
if they just wanted like media that you

1462
01:42:23.439 --> 01:42:26.439
think is really good for raising the
kind of questions we're talking about. And

1463
01:42:26.600 --> 01:42:29.640
I'm gonna make this a little harder
by saying, let's take our go twos

1464
01:42:29.720 --> 01:42:32.680
off the board. Can I speak
to you about our Lord and Savior?

1465
01:42:32.720 --> 01:42:38.880
And or no? Yeah? And
or the wire v for Vendetta, the

1466
01:42:38.960 --> 01:42:42.560
Batman stuff in general, Like,
I think all those we can sort of

1467
01:42:42.600 --> 01:42:45.039
just put on the table. We
all know those are those are the big

1468
01:42:45.039 --> 01:42:47.279
ones. Yeah, what are some
others you'd mentioned? I mean, one

1469
01:42:47.319 --> 01:42:50.439
that we never really got around too, I think because you just didn't dig

1470
01:42:50.439 --> 01:42:55.600
it as much as I did,
is gross point blank. I think it's

1471
01:42:55.640 --> 01:43:02.199
an interesting exploration into like, you
know, the use of violence and kind

1472
01:43:02.239 --> 01:43:06.279
of its place in our world or
its lack of place, or it touches

1473
01:43:06.359 --> 01:43:11.159
on, you know, some kind
of leftist philosophy type stuff that we talk

1474
01:43:11.239 --> 01:43:15.960
about and you know, corruption and
stuff like that. But it's also just

1475
01:43:15.039 --> 01:43:19.359
really fun you know, yeah,
if that makes sense. Um, it

1476
01:43:19.359 --> 01:43:24.800
has a great use of nine sick
loof balloons, you know, the the

1477
01:43:24.840 --> 01:43:29.079
German original version of ninety nine red
Balloons, and um, yeah, just

1478
01:43:29.119 --> 01:43:31.279
the soundtrack is great. Uh.
That's one that I feel like, you

1479
01:43:31.279 --> 01:43:34.840
know, I haven't mentioned much,
but like I just think is uh,

1480
01:43:35.520 --> 01:43:40.359
it's it's a movie that's I don't
know it it does meaning to me.

1481
01:43:40.800 --> 01:43:45.479
I saw it on my something or
other birthday. Um. Yeah. So

1482
01:43:45.479 --> 01:43:50.359
so that's one. And then more
recently in terms of a show that I

1483
01:43:50.399 --> 01:43:56.039
really enjoyed and I think a lot
of people would enjoy and it also touches

1484
01:43:56.119 --> 01:44:00.159
on a lot of the same things
and is also pretty funny. Is um

1485
01:44:00.399 --> 01:44:04.359
balastcarn pi or paye or I don't
I don't know whether he says it PI,

1486
01:44:04.399 --> 01:44:06.840
because I think it's supposed to be
kind of like a reference to like

1487
01:44:06.880 --> 01:44:13.039
magnum Pi. But he's um He's
not a private investigator. He's an independent

1488
01:44:13.520 --> 01:44:17.399
detective, right or not? Yeah, things, but it's like nineteen late

1489
01:44:17.520 --> 01:44:27.880
seventies Mexico City, you know,
independent detective going around trying to solve some

1490
01:44:27.880 --> 01:44:31.319
some mysteries with you know, some
police corruption and stuff like that. And

1491
01:44:31.319 --> 01:44:38.039
I won't say too much more about
it. The actor is in the third

1492
01:44:38.039 --> 01:44:43.319
season of Narcos Mexico, and I
just think is a fantastic actor. And

1493
01:44:43.680 --> 01:44:46.600
I just really enjoyed the show a
lot. Nice. Yeah, nice,

1494
01:44:47.279 --> 01:44:49.640
Yeah, I think some of the
ones that are for me. First is

1495
01:44:49.640 --> 01:44:53.399
one that we did do an episode
on, but I just would really recommend

1496
01:44:53.520 --> 01:44:57.399
because we didn't talk much a representation
on this, but this is the show

1497
01:44:57.439 --> 01:45:01.079
that I think is like the pinnacle
of representation, the p of world building,

1498
01:45:01.520 --> 01:45:05.079
where your world is really trying to
say what happens when we don't have

1499
01:45:05.159 --> 01:45:09.079
to have racism in this world,
we don't have to have queer phobia and

1500
01:45:09.079 --> 01:45:12.920
the like. And that's Shira.
Oh. Yeah, the new animated version.

1501
01:45:12.960 --> 01:45:15.359
I just thought it was so good
and just did such great things as

1502
01:45:15.359 --> 01:45:20.159
well as doing such a great portrayal
of mental illness, Like I think it

1503
01:45:20.159 --> 01:45:24.760
does a version of the Danny Zuko
story that is as good, if not

1504
01:45:24.880 --> 01:45:28.039
better. And I think that's a
pretly subjective just which one you like more?

1505
01:45:29.479 --> 01:45:31.199
Y? Yeah, I mean yeah, but it's like the defining thing.

1506
01:45:31.239 --> 01:45:33.920
But I definitely related to it a
little bit more in Shira. But

1507
01:45:33.960 --> 01:45:39.399
it's just it is so good for
all those things. A second one and

1508
01:45:39.439 --> 01:45:42.239
here's kind of like my version of
gross point blank. Although you probably have

1509
01:45:42.319 --> 01:45:45.119
much better reasons for not liking this
than I do. I don't know what

1510
01:45:45.119 --> 01:45:46.520
it is about gross point blank.
I'll try it again sometime. It just

1511
01:45:46.560 --> 01:45:50.920
didn't grab me probably point in my
life where I watched it. I think

1512
01:45:50.960 --> 01:45:56.800
that some of the absolute best television
out there right now that is diving into

1513
01:45:57.000 --> 01:46:00.880
all the issues that we talk about
is The Boys, and I think particularly

1514
01:46:00.920 --> 01:46:06.720
because it's kind of a satire or
a commentary on and a reflection on so

1515
01:46:06.800 --> 01:46:13.000
much of the stuff that we're doing
here. And I get it. You

1516
01:46:13.039 --> 01:46:15.359
have this weird idea that you want
to be able to like like a character,

1517
01:46:16.279 --> 01:46:19.479
at least one on screen. I
don't get it, but that's your

1518
01:46:19.520 --> 01:46:25.319
thing. So that's when I would
definitely recommend another that we just didn't cover

1519
01:46:25.439 --> 01:46:27.840
because it's like part of the Star
Trek universe, and so I actually did

1520
01:46:27.840 --> 01:46:30.760
it with Matthew Carroll. But is
the Orville the Orvile? I think is

1521
01:46:30.800 --> 01:46:33.319
doing all the things that Star Trek
did in somebody's doing it even better,

1522
01:46:33.720 --> 01:46:39.359
but also commenting on Star Trek in
terms of like using science fiction as this

1523
01:46:39.800 --> 01:46:45.199
model and vehicle for like, you
know, creating fake scenarios that are mirrors

1524
01:46:45.199 --> 01:46:49.720
of our own world in really wonderful
ways. And so that's when I would

1525
01:46:49.720 --> 01:46:54.279
lift up and then I had another
one that's completely cut out of my head.

1526
01:46:54.319 --> 01:46:55.960
So yeah, so those are my
three. Actually, no, Orville

1527
01:46:56.000 --> 01:46:57.880
was always meant to be the third, all right, So if you got

1528
01:46:57.880 --> 01:47:00.840
three, then I'm going to throw
a third one out there in the holiday

1529
01:47:00.840 --> 01:47:04.800
spirit. I thought you had to
said too, Okay, I said gross

1530
01:47:04.800 --> 01:47:10.199
point blank and blast Coronum. I
mentioned Narcos Mexico, but that wasn't what

1531
01:47:10.239 --> 01:47:13.720
I was talking about. That was
that's where the actor is, and he's

1532
01:47:13.720 --> 01:47:18.600
also in some other show Club de
Quervos. But yeah, in the Holiday

1533
01:47:18.640 --> 01:47:23.600
spirit, um, I'm gonna throw. I know people like to talk about

1534
01:47:23.680 --> 01:47:27.600
die Hard being a Christmas movie,
but I think the longest good Night is

1535
01:47:27.600 --> 01:47:30.880
a much better Christmas movie. Uh, it's very festive. There's like Christmas

1536
01:47:31.000 --> 01:47:36.880
lights at the end popping while somebody
might be dying. Um, and it's

1537
01:47:36.920 --> 01:47:43.079
it's Gina Davis as an extremely badass
assassin. I guess spoilers, but you

1538
01:47:43.159 --> 01:47:45.159
kind of get that in the beginning. I think, um, and Samuel

1539
01:47:45.279 --> 01:47:53.680
L. Jackson as a a PI
and you know, it's got Brian Cox

1540
01:47:54.000 --> 01:47:58.359
and um, someone else who's name
I forget, but really reminds me of

1541
01:47:58.399 --> 01:48:02.479
someone I knew when I was younger. And yeah, I think it's also

1542
01:48:02.560 --> 01:48:10.279
a fun movie that maybe doesn't explore
too much, you know, the roles

1543
01:48:10.319 --> 01:48:17.159
of violence and whatever. But yeah, it's it's fun and funny. It's

1544
01:48:17.359 --> 01:48:20.960
I liked my action comedies, you
know, And I think that's why I

1545
01:48:21.000 --> 01:48:26.000
responded so well to Marvel early on, was like that's basically what they were

1546
01:48:26.000 --> 01:48:29.960
doing. So, I mean we've
talked about how Bullet Train was a movie

1547
01:48:30.000 --> 01:48:31.760
that I watched, and I remember
saying to you specifically, like Paul,

1548
01:48:32.039 --> 01:48:35.000
I think this is a movie you
will love. I don't want a podcast

1549
01:48:35.039 --> 01:48:38.520
if you on it, because I
think it's just a movie to just enjoy.

1550
01:48:38.960 --> 01:48:41.359
And we probably could come up with
some podcast, but I kind of

1551
01:48:41.359 --> 01:48:44.479
don't want to. I'd rather just
be able to just love it because it's

1552
01:48:44.520 --> 01:48:47.439
a really great movie. Yeah for
sure. Cool. All right, well,

1553
01:48:47.479 --> 01:48:49.199
Paul, thank you so much for
being a part of this journey.

1554
01:48:49.239 --> 01:48:51.720
As I say to everybody, we
will continue to find ways to bring in

1555
01:48:51.760 --> 01:48:56.039
Paul, do other things to bring
in all of you, your feedback,

1556
01:48:56.079 --> 01:48:59.720
your ideas, all that. So
thank you again so much, and climb

1557
01:49:00.279 --> 01:49:10.239
goodbye. Why are you? Why
are you? M