WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:13.720 Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today we're continuing our 2 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:19.079 explorations of stories on both page and screen because we have yet another well known 3 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:22.559 book that's coming back to theaters. In this case, it's part two. 4 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:28.719 It is Dune. Dune is a very well known science fiction book that has 5 00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:34.840 been told on screen a number of times, and we recently got a very 6 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:39.000 popular movie part one of it, I think about two years ago. We 7 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:41.880 have a part two of it is going to be releasing right around the time 8 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:45.960 this episode comes out, and I wanted to get Stephen Cox, who is 9 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:50.679 someone who's been on this podcast before who has a depth of knowledge about this 10 00:00:50.719 --> 00:00:53.640 book and a lot of the themes and theories that go into it. It 11 00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:57.280 also happens to be my brother in law on to talk with me about it. 12 00:00:57.560 --> 00:01:00.840 And the interesting thing about this whole is that as I have learned more 13 00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:04.319 and more about this I read the book once a long time ago. I've 14 00:01:04.359 --> 00:01:10.959 seen now numerous versions of the movie and kind of ironically given just did as 15 00:01:10.959 --> 00:01:15.799 I said another page and screen episode on Frankenstein. On Frankenstein, forgive me, 16 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:21.799 I've watched too much mel Brooks. This is yet another story where the 17 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:25.959 book and the understanding of the book does not always match up with the popular 18 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:30.400 culture understanding of it, particularly the way it's presented on screen. And so 19 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:34.280 Steven, let me kind of just jump in right with that. This is 20 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:40.680 another story about a hero who goes off to become just like the people who's 21 00:01:40.680 --> 00:01:44.959 trying to liberate and becomes a great hero to them and as a messiah figure, 22 00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:49.840 and he leads them to glorious battle and his eyes turn blue and everyone 23 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:53.680 rides off into the sunset happy because he has taken over and brought justice for 24 00:01:53.719 --> 00:02:00.480 everyone. Is that's certainly seemed to be the popular conception of Doom. Yeah, 25 00:02:00.599 --> 00:02:04.159 yeah, Matthew, I'm really glad you started there, because that is 26 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:12.199 kind of my biggest peccadillo with the portrayal of this story in film and the 27 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:16.639 TV mini series. Is it really does become this kind of white savior. 28 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:22.520 He comes in and he saves the colonized. You know, he's destined for 29 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:24.479 greatness. He's the one, he's the neo, he's you know, he's 30 00:02:24.520 --> 00:02:30.919 everything. Yeah, But if you read the books, and by the books, 31 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:35.199 I'm kind of thinking about the original trilogy of books, there's more books 32 00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:42.039 beyond that. But the original trilogy, taken together is is precisely an admonition 33 00:02:42.599 --> 00:02:49.560 to beware of that figure. That figure is devastating and destructive, and that 34 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:57.719 charismatic religio political leader is the worst thing that can happen to humanity. So 35 00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:02.680 the idea that this is just dances with shihood is not actually accurate. Although 36 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:06.840 the first book, I mean, that's the thing is that the tone of 37 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:12.639 the first book is strikingly different. You know, each of the books and 38 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:15.919 the trilogy has a different kind of theme. You know. The first one 39 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:22.639 is is is religion and destiny, the second one is politics, and the 40 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:28.000 third is prophecy, and you have to kind of take them all three, 41 00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:34.240 you know, the second and especially the third books get very very strange and 42 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:39.319 very very weird. So to me, it's not particularly surprising that Hollywood hasn't 43 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:45.759 gone there, but it really does a disservice to Herbert and the story itself. 44 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:47.919 It makes it kind of the opposite of what it is. Right, 45 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:51.800 So let's start with this popular conception of the book, and it's one that 46 00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:55.000 I'll admit I inhaled until not that long ago, you know, and I 47 00:03:55.000 --> 00:03:59.000 believe actually a conversation with you helped me kind of get started on this, 48 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:01.960 because when the movie was coming out, I remember saying, I wasn't that 49 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:05.439 excited about the story because, to me, great, I'd read the book 50 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:09.560 once, but I'd probably kind of not give it too much attention. It's 51 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:13.000 a very dense book, and I think not that it's not what I call 52 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:15.040 a page turner unless you're really into some of the themes. And I was 53 00:04:15.040 --> 00:04:17.079 probably at a point in my life where I was not reading it to be 54 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:19.480 a page turner. Like I think it's probably a very good book, and 55 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:23.240 I want to go back and read it again. And so they skim some 56 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:26.560 parts to get ready for today. But as I said, the impression I 57 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:28.680 think that a lot of people have is, you know, it's about this 58 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:33.920 guy who the Harconin are treating these people the Fremen terribly, and the Atradees 59 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:38.399 in some ways are very similar to the Fremen. They're both getting kicked around 60 00:04:38.439 --> 00:04:44.199 by everybody, and so the Treads go there. And this is largely coming 61 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:46.120 to me from the most recent movie, but you know, the Duke wants 62 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:49.319 to work with the Fremen and partner with them and help help give them a 63 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:58.600 better life instead of just instead of just ruling over them as slaves the way 64 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:02.399 the harcone En did. And as I thought about that story, and a 65 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:04.879 grand admit, I think a lot of it would you know, people writing 66 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:09.319 about the story and talking about it, and like the stories kind of take 67 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:13.240 on meaning themselves in the way that it's you know, Mandela effect told down 68 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:19.959 it again and again. It became this great example of why one people saying 69 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:24.680 that they're going to liberate another just never works. You know that you cannot, 70 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:30.279 as colonizers liberate the colonize. They have to do it themselves, and 71 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:31.279 you can support that and sort of get out of the way of it. 72 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:35.720 But that, from what I'm hearing from you, is very much not the 73 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:41.680 story of the book. Correct, Yeah, I mean I guess I guess 74 00:05:41.720 --> 00:05:47.120 I shouldn't plant too firm a flag on that because it's a little more complicated. 75 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:51.720 I do think that if the book, and just thinking about the first 76 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:59.160 book has a weakness, it is a little bit that the Fremen don't get 77 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:03.360 the screen or like the page time. I guess that they maybe deserve. 78 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:11.360 But but even even as there is a little bit of that, you know 79 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:16.319 that lack of agency, as as as they're kind of led by Mouadi, 80 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:24.240 by Paula trades like, they are treated with respect and strength, they're fully 81 00:06:24.279 --> 00:06:30.639 fleshed out their three dimensional they they do have agency, although we don't see 82 00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:36.079 it a lot. I think in terms of planting the seeds in the first 83 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:42.240 book of that theme, a lot of it is kind of really like rooted 84 00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:50.120 in Middle Eastern history. Herbert was not only I mean, look, you 85 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:56.160 know the book's orientalist like that, there's just no getting around that. But 86 00:06:56.519 --> 00:07:02.399 Herbert was very respectful of Middle East culture and Middle Eastern history. He clearly 87 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:06.600 had people he was talking to, not just books he was reading, but 88 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:13.399 colleagues and friends he was talking to who were familiar with the culture and with 89 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:16.560 the history. And well, to interrupt me there for a second, because 90 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:20.000 I think you're starting to answer a question that had that I wanted to get 91 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:26.199 into, which is that you know, this is a book about a people 92 00:07:26.199 --> 00:07:30.199 who are considered more primitive to the kind of first world or types again using 93 00:07:30.199 --> 00:07:34.759 these terms in quotes, who live in a desert area and have control of 94 00:07:34.839 --> 00:07:40.360 a resource that the rest of the universe needs for transportation. So this is 95 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:45.240 very much supposed to be a metaphor for Saudi Arabia, like the Middle East 96 00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:46.879 and oil. Correct, is that kind of where you're going? Yeah, 97 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:53.319 I mean it's really hard to read it now without thinking that. Yeah, 98 00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:59.720 I think I think maybe Herbert was thinking a little a little more classical history 99 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:05.160 than that. I think I think in terms of you know, when we 100 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:11.319 think about jihad, the theme of jihad is really really strong. It's that's 101 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:15.079 what the first book is about, is about this coming Jahad. Now, 102 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:16.319 now again, I don't mean to keep interrupting you, but because you're using 103 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:20.000 terms that I think a lot of the audience may not know, or I 104 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:24.279 think for most people when they hear the word jihad, well, if you're 105 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:26.759 a certain kind of geek, you think of vampire the masquerade, but mostly 106 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:33.159 you probably think about the word that is used to describe what is described in 107 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:37.000 the West as acts of Islamic terrorism. Now, I know that that word 108 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:39.000 is not that, and I'm sure you don't mean it as that. I 109 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:43.279 can't say, though I know exactly what it should be defined as. So 110 00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:46.200 one of the reason why we're bringing Stephen Hieron is he is also an expert 111 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:50.159 in Middle Eastern history, and concepts like that talk a bit about what the 112 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:54.720 word jihad means and what you mean, what you think Herbert means by it. 113 00:08:56.279 --> 00:09:01.480 Yeah, you know so, by the way, in the twenty twenty 114 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:05.399 one film, I think they replaced jahad with crusade, which, like it's 115 00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:13.679 kind of inevitable because Americans have this inescapable association of the word. But in 116 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:20.000 Islam, jahad just means struggle, and over the centuries it has generally come 117 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:24.840 to mean a struggle for liberation. There's an internal struggle for liberation, there's 118 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:31.799 an external struggle for liberation, and so anti colonial movements in the Middle East 119 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:35.120 were often couched as jahad, And I think that's really that really gets at 120 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:41.200 what Herbert is talking about. That's how he means it. He means it 121 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:43.320 in the way that most Muslims, you know, when he's writing in the 122 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:48.159 sixties and seventies, most Muslims would have thought of it. In most Middle 123 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:52.639 Easterners anyway, would have thought of it in those terms, in those liberatory 124 00:09:52.840 --> 00:10:00.679 terms. And you know, we Western audience, especially American audiences, really 125 00:10:00.759 --> 00:10:05.039 just don't think of it that way. And so it's really got a lot 126 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:07.639 of baggage to it, but I do think, I do think that's what 127 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:13.039 he was going for, Okay, And so because that's the idea, is 128 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:20.000 that there is this, And I think it's also further helpful is that we're 129 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:24.840 using the word Messianic quite often. That's a word that in popular culture today 130 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:31.200 is associated explicitly with Christianity. But all three of the Altoholic religions have a 131 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:37.240 concept of Messiah to some extent. Judaism, at least Temple Judaism thousands of 132 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:41.000 years ago, very much did. Many parts of Judaism today have moved away 133 00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:45.159 from it. Some parts still are waiting for Messiah. There's an agreement that 134 00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:50.799 Jesus was not that Messiah. Christianity obviously believes that that Jesus was the Messiah, 135 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:56.399 and Islam also does have some Messianic ideas that are different sects of Islam 136 00:10:56.519 --> 00:11:01.360 hold to more or less. But again this is not exact parallel to Islam 137 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:09.240 by any means. But talk about the good. Yeah, So I one 138 00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:13.759 of the interesting things, so in Dune, Paul Trades is referred to as 139 00:11:13.799 --> 00:11:22.720 the Mahdi, which is the Islamic Messiah, and especially in Shism, there's 140 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:30.240 a chain of Mahdis and the kind of prevalent threat of twelve or Sheism has 141 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:37.519 that this Mahdi has been hidden, occluded from us, but will will come 142 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:43.519 back. And I think that's the tradition that Herbert is drawing from, because 143 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:50.840 Gosh, I should have looked this up. The the twelfth and mom the 144 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:58.120 Mahdi uh died under the abbased caliphate during the Middle Ages, and that's when 145 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:05.840 he went into occlusion. But very similar to paula trades the Mahdi and Dune. 146 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:11.679 His father was a leader of the Banu hashim Plan, a leader of 147 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:18.440 a very highly respected family. He actually was the eleventh Imam, the eleventh 148 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:28.440 uh Uh Messiah, and arguably he was killed by the Halif, just as 149 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:35.440 in the book and film, Paul's father Ledo was very popular, rivaled the 150 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:39.799 emperor, was killed by the emperors. So there's I think that parallel is 151 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:45.240 just right. Okay, So I because I didn't realize that they're actually using 152 00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:50.919 Islamic words, they're actually using Arabic words to discuss similar similar ideas here, 153 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:58.919 Yeah, he sometimes he sometimes tries to obfuscate the Arabic terms that he's using, 154 00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:05.039 like and you know, my Arabic is terrible now. But you know, 155 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:11.960 I don't I don't think like Moadib or lisan al Gaib like, I 156 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:16.679 don't think a lot of these terms quite translate. But Madi for sure, 157 00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:22.399 and Jahad I think he's using just spot on interesting, Okay, Okay, 158 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:26.799 So so that's sort of the public well and so again, yeah, the 159 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:31.440 idea of the white blue eyed person who runs this, I can see them 160 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:37.279 again. Why we're getting into some critiques here. So what do you think 161 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:43.080 Herbert is actually trying to say about this idea of the Moadib who comes along 162 00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:48.879 and you know, as an outworld or comes along to be more Fremin than 163 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:54.159 the Fremen and to lead them to glorious victory. Because also again in the 164 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:58.559 popular culture understandings, the movies and if you've just read book one, it 165 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:03.519 and with them just liberating the Fremen, right, it's not going beyond that. 166 00:14:05.559 --> 00:14:09.600 In the in the first book they yeah, they liberate the Fremen, 167 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:18.679 but then at the very end Mouadib marries the Princess Aralon and becomes the new 168 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:24.279 emperor. Right, so you know spoilers for the end of part two. 169 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:30.000 Uh, they win at the end, the Fremen are are are liberated, 170 00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:37.559 you know, through their struggle and through Paul's And then book two is kind 171 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:48.000 of about the emperorship of Paul moadib and he becomes this tyrant m through the 172 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:52.799 spice he you know, I mean, we wouldn't get into all the you 173 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:56.039 know, he he kind of combines. This is another kind of theme of 174 00:14:56.080 --> 00:15:01.080 the book, is this kind of gender essentialism. He kind of combines what 175 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:11.440 Herbert considers like the masculine and the feminine logic and intuition, the mentat and 176 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:18.279 the Benny Jessert and becomes kind of more than both of them. And he 177 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:26.759 has this incredible prescience that makes it makes his rule kind of impossible to resist. 178 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:33.759 And that's when we start to see this liberatory figure this like, yeah, 179 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:41.480 this colonial, anti colonial white savior is he isn't he like become exactly 180 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:48.720 what I think Herbert, who himself was fairly libertarian and right leaning, would 181 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:52.519 have considered. You know, this is what happens with charismatic leaders. This 182 00:15:52.600 --> 00:16:00.440 is what happens when the colonized and the colonial combine forces to over come that 183 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:03.639 system. Because I think I think one of the one of the complications of 184 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:11.720 the white savior narrative is that in anti colonial movements, it is often kind 185 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:15.799 of a blurry distinction. You know, a lot of times these anti colonial 186 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:26.039 movements aren't maybe led by a white savior, but but often are led by 187 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:29.720 indigenous folks who have been brought up within that system and are part of that 188 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:36.080 system. And it's that combination of colonial and anti colonial forces turned against the 189 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:41.320 system that has produced some of the strongest anti colonial movements, right, because 190 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:45.679 you have to both literally and figuratively, you often have to speak in a 191 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:51.799 language that the colonialists will understand, right, right, and Muadep speaks all 192 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:55.039 the you know, he does it all. He's neo, he's the one 193 00:16:55.120 --> 00:17:00.879 he he can do all of it, and his rule becomes this this combination 194 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:07.680 of of sort of hegemony as has gained through his prescience and his kind of 195 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:17.359 all knowing status and also repression, because the Fremen go from being this really 196 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:23.680 put down struggling group to being the feared imperial army, like, you know, 197 00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:30.720 they overtake the sardakar as as this this tyrannical police force in the in 198 00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:34.559 the galaxy, right, which, given that in the early parts of the 199 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:37.960 story at least do not understand it. In the book and certainly in the 200 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:41.279 movies, they present themselves very much as we don't want to have any part 201 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:45.440 in all of your imperial struggles. We just wish you would leave us alone 202 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:51.480 and honor our world and honor our worms and all of this. It feels 203 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:55.960 like yet it's real betrayal of what they had claimed to originally want. Yeah, 204 00:17:56.039 --> 00:18:00.559 and in that case, in that sense, you know, I think 205 00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:07.079 the figure of still Gar is really important to that because his evolution, uh 206 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:15.160 kind of in a way mirrors Paul's and he he you know, in a 207 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:19.720 in a book that could really give more page time and agency to the Fremen, 208 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:25.279 Stillgar becomes this kind of stand in where we watch that transition take place. 209 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.359 Would it be fair to say then that this is kind that the first 210 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:33.559 book and is kind of the Paula Trady is villain Orange story. I mean, 211 00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:37.720 the trade presented as or is he more of like a like a Macbeth 212 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.799 figure, like a tragic you know, uh, you know, a tragic. 213 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:44.799 He's not only a hero, I guess, but like you know, 214 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:49.440 the the person who who has had everything go wrong. And that is interesting. 215 00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:55.480 I think you could read it both ways. M. Paul's trying to 216 00:18:55.880 --> 00:19:02.680 Paul sees the Jihad common and he's actually trying to prevent it. He's trying 217 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:11.359 to avert this destruction that he sees in the future and clearly becomes instead the 218 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:15.200 avenue of it. Now, when you talk about that, do you mean, 219 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:19.200 like, for the Fremin, is the jihad the struggle to liberate Dune 220 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:25.519 or is the struggle to then go out and become the new Sadakar Sadahar and 221 00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:30.119 become like the new Imperial strike Force. Yeah, unclear, unclear to me, 222 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:36.839 at least early it's spoken of very much in terms of the liberation of 223 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:44.359 Eractus. But like, you know, like kind of a simplistic reading of 224 00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:51.200 Islamic history, which maybe Herbert is doing here. It goes from liberal liberation 225 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:56.480 to like, well, I mean we did we should we just take everyone's 226 00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:02.319 ass, like we could just take everything, right, I can see that, 227 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:07.039 And yeah, like I I definitely have heard that version of Islamic history, 228 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:10.319 often from right wing folks of like, you know, what started as 229 00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:14.720 the fight to liberate Mecca and Medina becomes you know, the Islamic you know, 230 00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:18.240 conquest of all North Africa and up to you know, with now Bosnia 231 00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:22.400 and Serbia and things like that. So I can see it where that comes 232 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:29.720 from. There's it makes me think there's a medieval Islama or Middle Eastern writer, 233 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:36.720 even Kaldoon, who traveled a lot around at the time, the the 234 00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:41.880 cal of Fate and the Muslim world, and he actually he talked about that 235 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:48.880 within within Middle Eastern history, this this given take between the city and the 236 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:56.799 edge, the center and the hinterland. And he even saw Middle Eastern history 237 00:20:56.839 --> 00:21:03.359 as characterized by these periodic you know, you had these settled, settled cities, 238 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:07.319 these settled empires Rome, Persia, and then you've got somebody on the 239 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:15.359 on the periphery who starts off liberating themselves and then finds that it's actually quite 240 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:19.079 easy to go ahead and just take that imperial place. And so you should 241 00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:23.319 argue that the Arab armies did that. You could argue that the Church did 242 00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:27.440 that, you could argue that the Mongols did that. You know, it's 243 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:33.799 a trope. I don't you know. I don't subscribe to it, but 244 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:40.440 it's a trope that that is very very popular in looking at history. Yeah, 245 00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:44.640 I can see that, and am I also right that in the book, 246 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:48.960 like Herbert again, you know, the popular conception you seem to be 247 00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:55.039 that Herbert likes Messiah stories. These at least I didn't get from reading the 248 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:57.079 book, but I don't think you get as much from the movies and TV 249 00:21:57.160 --> 00:22:00.160 shows, though I do have hope that this most recent version is going to 250 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:06.400 go deeper into this. But my memory is specifically in the book that there's 251 00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:10.960 a lot of evidence actually that the benet Gestirate like planted the seeds of this 252 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:17.000 prophecy. They basically kind of created a self fulfilling prophecy of, oh, 253 00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:21.119 you should believe that one day a person will do X, Y and z, 254 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:25.519 and then you should follow that person so that much later they could have 255 00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:29.720 a person who is X, Y and Z. Because that now feels very 256 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:33.960 critical of religion and specifically critical of this idea, like kind of like not 257 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:37.160 even just that the Fremen are wrong, but that the Fremen were, like 258 00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:42.720 you know, have basically been like not even not quite mind controlled, but 259 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:48.960 have been so deeply manipulated. For anyone who watches Babylon five, it's very 260 00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:52.799 much kind of like the Vorlons do there of like teaching people to think that 261 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:56.279 you are the creatures of mythology so that when you come to them, they 262 00:22:56.279 --> 00:23:00.799 will listen to you. Am I getting that right? Is that actually kind 263 00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:03.000 of more what the Benny jestrit are in the books? Yeah, oh man, 264 00:23:03.079 --> 00:23:07.759 I'm so glad. Okay, So you're talking about the missionaria protectiva, 265 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:14.680 right, right, this is the Benajeserate order of you know, which is, 266 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:18.839 however you want to refer to them, send out missionaries of sorts to 267 00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:26.640 every corner of the galaxy to plant stories because they are looking, you know, 268 00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:30.799 they're through their genetic manipulation, like they're on their own quest for the 269 00:23:30.839 --> 00:23:37.400 Messiah. They're they're trying to breed the Messiah, and they're trying to make 270 00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:41.200 every corner of the galaxy safe for that person when they arise. And so 271 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:52.039 this tweet Sadarak come is planted all over in different stories, and so by 272 00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:57.160 the time Paul comes to Aracus, they've already got this well fleshed out mythology 273 00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:03.559 about his coming, which I think is I don't want to say it's like 274 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:07.400 my favorite part. It's I think it's one of the more interesting colonial aspects 275 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:14.519 of the story. I think it's fascinating the way that that that mythology, 276 00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:18.359 the way that that kind of long term You're right, it's not not brainwater, 277 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:22.960 you know, like that long term just planting of like the seeds of 278 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:27.319 ideas and seeing what they sprout as a way of control, as a way 279 00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:37.440 of you know control. Yeah, it's a deep level cultural manipulation of convincing 280 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:42.920 people that there's some sort of outside mystical force that this person is then fulfilling 281 00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:48.920 the prophecy of when really you just told them that this prophecy would happen so 282 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:52.680 that later you could intentionally fulfill that. Yes, but it also it takes 283 00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:57.400 root because it speaks to something, you know. It's like they say that, 284 00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:03.319 you know, culture all over the world have a flood myth, you 285 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:07.640 know, similar to like Noah. It fulfills a cultural need. And for 286 00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:15.000 the Fremen, that need is their genuine subjugation, Like they do need that 287 00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:19.599 that hope that comes with the idea that that the Mahdi is coming right, 288 00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:25.559 and so what is the benet gestric goal like you said that for them, 289 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:29.279 it's not totally made up though they also believe this person. I think it's 290 00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:33.519 called the hazy shazarak that you say it. I always thought it was Quissac 291 00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:38.920 Satarac, Quissac Satarac. So what is their conception of this person. Their 292 00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:47.119 conception of this person is, oh, gosh, if memory serves, it's 293 00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:55.279 really not too different from uh, the role that Paul ends up fulfilling, 294 00:25:55.720 --> 00:26:02.599 except that they were hoping that it would be someone under their control, right, 295 00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:10.680 And you know, they they have kind of been for thousands of years 296 00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:22.359 a parallel power structure to the Patasha Emperor, and for the long term survival 297 00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:33.400 and thriving of the human race, they have been kind of reading breeding I 298 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:37.920 just bloodlines. You know, there's a lot of a lot of biological determinism 299 00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:44.119 in this book, and they've been trying to combine bloodlines to create someone who 300 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:52.200 can combine that masculine and feminine aspect and become kind of the Benny Jesser that's 301 00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:59.279 greater than the emperor. So on some level, they're kind of looking for 302 00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:03.559 like the plato Is republic idea of like that there's gonna be av the benevolent 303 00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:08.119 prince, that that they very much want authoritarianism, but they want there to 304 00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:14.079 be like the one perfect person who will rule with perfect authority and justice and 305 00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:15.720 and that kind of thing. But also, as you said, under their 306 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:22.519 control. Yeah, and and in the book, I don't think it comes 307 00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:27.359 through quite in the movie very well. But in the book, Lady Jessica 308 00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:34.039 gets a lot of flack for letting herself give birth to a son because that 309 00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:37.799 wasn't the plan. The plan was she was going to give birth to a 310 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:41.839 daughter. They were going to pair that daughter with someone else, and then 311 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:47.680 that person was going to be hopefully the queed sac right. And by giving 312 00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:53.039 birth to a son who is not under Beny Jester at control, Jessica's in 313 00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:56.680 fact, you know, Jessica gets so like I think in the movie Jessica 314 00:27:56.759 --> 00:28:02.759 gets such short shrift because in the books she's such a pivotal character and in 315 00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:07.640 the movie she just kind of like sweats and like like like, uh, 316 00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:11.960 needs her hands together a lot. But even then in both movies, uh, 317 00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:19.000 she does have a conversation a she does have a confrontation with the I 318 00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:22.480 want to say the mother Superior. I don't think that's the exact title, 319 00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:26.559 but with the head of the Benny Jest where who says you're supposed to have 320 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:27.720 a you're supposed to have a daughter. You know, this is your arrogance, 321 00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:33.559 et cetera. Yeah, yeah, and and that's that really really strewed 322 00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:37.039 up their plans, right, okay. And in the second book, the 323 00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:42.440 Benjesta that are actually you know, part of they become part of the resistance 324 00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:51.279 against Paul's rule. Interesting, okay, okay, And so as part of 325 00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:56.759 that, like, there are some science fiction worlds where there are human like 326 00:28:56.920 --> 00:29:02.200 people living on multiple planets, but we're never supposed to think that they're all 327 00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:04.640 like descendants of Earth, like in Star Wars, there's no Earth, but 328 00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:08.880 am I corrected? In the Dune world, we are supposed to think that 329 00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:14.759 these are actual human beings, that there wasn't Earth at some point, and 330 00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:21.000 therefore all of these planets are colonists who eventually because part of what I'm getting 331 00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:26.200 at is are the Fremen a literal different species who just are very humanoid? 332 00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:32.039 Or is the idea that like the humans, the Fremen, the Harconins, 333 00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:37.559 the Artredes, all of these people can trace their origins if they go far, 334 00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:42.079 far, far far back enough to the humans on Earth. I believe. 335 00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:48.079 So. I think the way that Star Wars takes place, you know, 336 00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:52.759 a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, This takes place 337 00:29:52.880 --> 00:30:02.000 in our galaxy, but a long time from now, so that whatever we 338 00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:07.559 would recognize as our species is deep in the midst mists of time. Right, 339 00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:14.039 So folks like the Fremen are not native per se to Eractus, but 340 00:30:14.119 --> 00:30:18.599 they've been there so long, right that they might as well be. Yeah, 341 00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:21.680 I mean, which you know, if you think about other native peoples, 342 00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:25.319 like, yeah, humans did, as far as we know, did 343 00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:30.160 not independently develop in the Americas. They developed all of us, you know, 344 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:36.799 came from Africa. But a group of people's came to the Americas thousands 345 00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:41.319 and thousands and thousands of years ago, and then five hundred years ago Europeans 346 00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:42.920 started to come here. And so we say those people are indigenous, and 347 00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:47.920 that that's really what indigen a it means, is that, yeah, that's 348 00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:52.599 exactly that's exactly the parallel. Okay, that makes sense. That makes sense. 349 00:30:52.279 --> 00:30:56.400 So given all this, why do you think it is that the story 350 00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:03.559 is so often misremembered and that maybe the tellings of it seemed to lose a 351 00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:10.319 lot of this nuance and complexity. Boy, I mean, Hollywood does love 352 00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:15.880 its own kind of call it Messiah, call it white Savior, you know, 353 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:19.279 like we love our NEOs, We love our Luke Skywalker's. Yeah, 354 00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:27.559 Hollywood loves to make those films. A film about Luke Skywalker becoming well, 355 00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:30.759 I was going to say becoming Darth Vader, but Anakin kind of does. 356 00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:37.680 But the idea that that this person who we invest all of our hope in 357 00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:48.440 becoming the most nightmarish thing possible is I think maybe just less appealing. Yeah, 358 00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:51.400 I mean, look at like Last Jedi is one of my favorite Star 359 00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:56.079 Wars movies. But it's why they well, it is by no means hated 360 00:31:56.119 --> 00:31:59.319 by majority of Star Wars fans. There's a minority, even very loud one 361 00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:01.559 already, that very much doesn't like it, and one of their biggest reasons 362 00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:05.759 is because they want Luke Skywalker to be this hero and not a morally complex 363 00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:12.359 character. And Yeah, I find that comparison particularly humorous because I would then 364 00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:16.039 say that one of the best evidences of how misunderstood the story of Dune is 365 00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:22.200 in popular culture is when people who will say, oh, a New Hope 366 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:25.680 is just a rip off of the Dune story, when from what you're saying, 367 00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:30.799 it actually sounds like Dune is more of a critique of the kind of 368 00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:37.000 stories that a new hope is Yeah, yeah, I think you know, 369 00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:43.920 George Lucas, you know, I don't even think George Lucas kind of thought 370 00:32:43.960 --> 00:32:47.319 it through that deeply. You know. I think he wanted to tell a 371 00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:53.799 hero's journey, and that's really not what Dune is, right, Like, 372 00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:58.839 is there a hero that emerges as kind of the main view of you character 373 00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:01.880 to oppose Paul or is it much more just a story of this is the 374 00:33:01.880 --> 00:33:07.119 brokenness of power and of politics and of religion. You know, it's been 375 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:13.960 sometimes since I've read the second and third books, but I do think there's 376 00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:24.319 various characters Channi, who becomes Paula Trades's wife in the Empress, it kind 377 00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:32.000 of fills that role to some extent. I think Duncan Idaho, who spoiler 378 00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:39.680 alert it is brought back in the second book, kind of becomes that figure. 379 00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:44.279 Like there are these kind of moral compasses that you can latch onto, 380 00:33:44.359 --> 00:33:50.440 but there's no one. There's no one anti anti hero, which is maybe 381 00:33:50.440 --> 00:33:53.519 the point, right, Yeah, I mean it feels like it's a very 382 00:33:53.599 --> 00:34:00.480 kind of like complex, nuanced narrative that just in general doesn't translate the screen 383 00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:05.720 very well. You know, we were talking about exactly this in in a 384 00:34:05.720 --> 00:34:08.840 recent episode that we did about Frankenstein, where I hadn't actually fully read the 385 00:34:08.840 --> 00:34:14.719 Book of Frankenstein until the last couple of weeks and was amazed how incredibly different 386 00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:17.760 it is of every instance of frank Like I knew enough to know that the 387 00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:23.400 point is that doctor Frankenstein is the monster, not the monster that he creates, 388 00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:27.599 and it's very much supposed to be a critique of scientific ethics and all 389 00:34:27.639 --> 00:34:30.360 that kind of thing. But realizing like, you know, there's no igor, 390 00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:37.519 there's no lightning, there's no the monster is incredibly eloquent, you know 391 00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:39.920 when he speaks. It's not just the kind of thing, you know, 392 00:34:40.039 --> 00:34:45.880 it seems so very different than everything from you know, the Bell of the 393 00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:51.480 Go See movies to you know, every Frankenstein episode that every TV show has 394 00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:53.400 ever done. And it sounds like, dude, it's kind of a similar 395 00:34:53.480 --> 00:35:00.199 thing. Yeah. I saw I saw someone online complaining, you know, 396 00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:06.199 someone on the right kind of complaining about this revisionism of Frankenstein as as the 397 00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:08.239 put upon victim, and it's like, that's the whole that's the book, 398 00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:15.159 that's what the book is. Yeah. Yeah, you know, even the 399 00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:19.159 fact that we call the monster Frankenstein when that's that's the name of the doctor 400 00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:23.360 the creature. I mean his name is Adam, right, he in the 401 00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:27.199 book, he's never really given a name. He kind of refers to him 402 00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:31.159 as Frankenstein's Adam, but he often calls him a monster. And yeah, 403 00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:35.960 I think that's we wrestled with what to call him because we don't want to 404 00:35:35.960 --> 00:35:40.199 call him a monster. But that's how Frankenstein how it is doctor Frankenstein's narrative, 405 00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:45.880 and so that's how he frames the creature. Interesting. Yeah, it's 406 00:35:45.960 --> 00:35:47.719 very much an Adam kind of a story with an attempt to create an Eve 407 00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:52.559 as a big part of the book. So pulling it back to Dune, 408 00:35:52.639 --> 00:35:55.440 then, so you saw the movie that came out a couple of years ago, 409 00:35:55.519 --> 00:36:00.199 right, Yeah, I rewatched the movie just a couple of hours ago, 410 00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:05.840 and I think I missed this the first time I watched it in part 411 00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:07.639 because I think it is a beautiful movie and it's a very slow movie, 412 00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:10.519 and so I probably was not paying as much attention as it should have been. 413 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:14.480 And this time I was kind of like doing things while having it on, 414 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:19.760 which weird way allowed me to concentrate it up more but the point of 415 00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:24.039 all that being and so maybe it's because of all that, or maybe it's 416 00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:27.880 because I have now come to understand a lot of the stuff that you and 417 00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:30.519 I have been talking about before we record it, even but also we're talking 418 00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:36.519 about with others. It does feel like this first movie not only is Paul 419 00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:42.960 feeling very reluctant, but there's a lot more that makes me hopeful that maybe 420 00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:45.880 this movie isn't going that same direction in part two, that they are actually 421 00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:50.960 trying to say there's something wrong with this whole culture of you know, hero 422 00:36:51.079 --> 00:36:53.519 worship and them immediately being like, oh, you're the most friend and Freemen 423 00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:58.360 that's ever a friend. And to Freemen, what's your feeling like, did 424 00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:01.760 the first movie strike you as yet another we just see Paul as a hero 425 00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:05.880 and we're not we're not muddying those waters, or did it seem like there's 426 00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:09.960 a real potential to get into this nuance? I I am hopeful. I 427 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:15.400 am hopeful that we didn't get there. The way that his visions of the 428 00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:23.880 of the Crusade played out, it did look like he was, you know, 429 00:37:25.559 --> 00:37:34.039 not not feeling very conflicted about it, and I, you know, 430 00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:37.880 maybe this is cynical of me, But I think the fact that Chani is 431 00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:45.159 played by Zendaya, who is just such an enormous star, I think she's 432 00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:52.239 hopefully going to get the agency and the role that that character really deserves and 433 00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:58.519 almost never gets, and that that could be a really good way. I 434 00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:02.079 do think like culturally, maybe we are ready for that, that complication, 435 00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:07.039 you know, hope. So, yeah, and I think that there's a 436 00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:13.159 lot of there's a lot of reasons both cynical and optimistic, to hope that 437 00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:16.360 the Part two really delivers that. Yeah, I would really love to see 438 00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:21.119 that. And you know, I have my own cynicism in part because, 439 00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:30.239 like, from a cinematic perspective, your hero riding into battle on a five 440 00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:37.280 hundred foot long death worm, surrounded by his you know, loyal fighters fighting 441 00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:43.360 against the Harconin who are presented as you know, evil mechevil pants, it's 442 00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:45.159 hard to think that's gonna be anything but badass, and that you're not gonna 443 00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:49.199 look at that and go yeah, go Paul, Go Paul, and so 444 00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:52.719 wanting to both morally complexify that that's not a word, but you know what 445 00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:55.480 I mean, well, at the same time also being like yeah, but 446 00:38:55.519 --> 00:39:00.719 it looks pretty bad ass, doesn't it. Like I'm not sure how they 447 00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:02.679 can be done, but I think it's possible and I would love to see 448 00:39:02.679 --> 00:39:07.960 it. They or and especially because I do think that movies can do a 449 00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:13.880 good thing where the movie does make you feel something and then later tries to 450 00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:16.719 make you feel bad about feeling that. And I'm I mean kind of facetious 451 00:39:16.760 --> 00:39:21.280 there. I don't mean in quite those terms, but like I could see 452 00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:23.760 that if early in the movie we do think this is really badass, and 453 00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:30.519 then if later the moral complexity and nuances really kind of hammered home, then 454 00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:32.880 we have to even sit in the theaters and think, wow, maybe when 455 00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:37.320 I was cheering on, you know, Paul leading his army, I should 456 00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:40.400 have been more aware of the problematicness of it. Yes, yes, And 457 00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:45.519 I think I think, you know, the characters of Stilgar and Shannie are 458 00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:50.280 the ones who are gonna provide that if anything, you know, like they 459 00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:58.360 they're they're so perfectly placed to, you know, look at Paul and you 460 00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:02.159 know, and see what he's doing and starts to question it and and give 461 00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:08.599 voice to that for the audience. Right, So we had a lot to 462 00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:12.719 say about this and I want to let you have some follow up last things 463 00:40:12.760 --> 00:40:15.039 to say, but I want to this guy's last question. I want to 464 00:40:15.079 --> 00:40:17.800 ask you. And again this is kind of trying to look into an author's 465 00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:20.960 intent, and so I don't know how much you've read it, but it 466 00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:24.400 does seem like you know a good deal about Herbert. Come thinking about like 467 00:40:24.519 --> 00:40:30.960 what is he trying to say here? Particularly because and like as our world 468 00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:36.039 right now proves, like we still have in many hearts this country and many 469 00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:42.840 parts of this world, very very negative views of anything that Middle Eastern people 470 00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:46.360 are doing for what they might understand as a freedom fight, and which isn't 471 00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:51.119 a blanket endorsement of all of it, but also a blank is critiquing the 472 00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:57.599 blanket critique, but surely even more so in nineteen sixty five, like it 473 00:40:57.679 --> 00:41:02.480 was almost unheard of in the United States at least to be questioning anything except 474 00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:07.559 you know, Israel good, Syria, Egypt, all these other places bad. 475 00:41:07.239 --> 00:41:12.599 And you know, you know, we'd fought a big horn. N 476 00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:15.679 there's a big war in nineteen fifty six. We're coming up on the big 477 00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:19.199 war in nineteen sixty and another big war in nineteen sixty seven, two years 478 00:41:19.239 --> 00:41:23.400 before this two years after the book is published. My point being, do 479 00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:31.039 you have the sense that Herbert was specifically critiquing Islam and Messianic ideas within Islam 480 00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:38.400 and sort of the religiosity of Islamic freedom fighting movements, And maybe it was 481 00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:40.599 those, Maybe it could be also. I mean, this is when Malcolm 482 00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:45.000 xination of Islam and all those are also big figures. Is it more that 483 00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:52.159 or is it more this is a critique of Messianic ideas and sort of like 484 00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:59.320 holy wars in all of these religions. But that couching it as in a 485 00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:05.599 culture that would ring bells of you know, Eastern Orientalism type things, as 486 00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:08.320 you were saying, is a safer way to tell the story than making it 487 00:42:08.360 --> 00:42:14.920 more explicitly about all kinds of holy war ideology. I think there's a couple 488 00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:19.199 of things going on with Herbert there. Think. I don't think he's singling 489 00:42:19.400 --> 00:42:30.719 Islam out. I think he's trying to trying to present an exotic other world, 490 00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:36.840 and he's doing so in a way that, like today we would not 491 00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:42.800 probably consider like the way to do it. But I don't think he's critiquing 492 00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:46.920 Islam specifically. I think he's critiquing power. I think it goes really more 493 00:42:47.239 --> 00:42:52.119 to his view about politics rather than his view of religion. Religion just becomes 494 00:42:52.119 --> 00:43:00.239 this conduit for manipulating people. And but I think the actual critique of his 495 00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:05.239 story is about government. That makes sense. That's what that makes sense. 496 00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:10.760 And I mean, while granted, religion did not have the overt political power 497 00:43:10.840 --> 00:43:15.159 in the United States that it does today, this is before the forming of 498 00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:19.320 the moral majority or any of the things that will then eventually lead to, 499 00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:22.840 you know, the Christian evangelical political movements of today. You know, certainly 500 00:43:22.840 --> 00:43:28.199 still Christianity had a lot of political power, and religion had power in places 501 00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:30.480 all over the world, often to great, you know, terrible effect. 502 00:43:32.360 --> 00:43:37.639 Oh yeah, the biggest lie that liberals ever told is that the West is 503 00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:44.760 secular and the the East is you know, a combination of religion and politics. 504 00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:51.400 It's entirely religion is suffused in our politics. Yeah, yeah, always 505 00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:54.679 has been. So we're gonna have some bonus content for our members in just 506 00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:59.079 a few minutes, specifically about like hopes for the second movie that's coming, 507 00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:01.400 but any of the last things you want to say in terms of just like 508 00:44:01.840 --> 00:44:07.519 helping people better understand the story in ways that the pop culture discussions and the 509 00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:12.159 movies up to this most recent one. I say movies. There's the David 510 00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:15.239 Lynch movie and then there's the Netflix TV show or the two main ones that 511 00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:17.760 I know of. But I think it's also been kind of like told, 512 00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:22.159 you know, in as a Dune type story, in many other things. 513 00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:24.519 But in all of these like are there any other kind of last points you 514 00:44:24.519 --> 00:44:32.199 want to bring up? The thing that I think is most interesting, and 515 00:44:32.639 --> 00:44:37.800 it plays out in several ways, like both across the first book and across 516 00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:45.920 the trilogy is the tension between like consent of the governed and repression. And 517 00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:52.840 you know, so in the first book, the Hertanans are described as tyrannical, 518 00:44:53.199 --> 00:45:00.039 as dominating the Fremen, and you know, and I think the the 519 00:45:00.039 --> 00:45:02.960 portrayal of the Hearkens in the twenty twenty one movie is so much better than 520 00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:09.880 in the nineteen eighty four version because the Hearkening are given their fair due, 521 00:45:09.920 --> 00:45:15.880 Like they are brilliant, they are conniving, they are ruthless and brutal, 522 00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:20.000 but they're not silly like they kind of come off in the nineteen eighty four 523 00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:23.639 version. Yeah, they're not hot air balloons. Yeah, right, yeah, 524 00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:30.280 and so you see that, as you said, like like Duke Lito 525 00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:36.519 talking about cultivating desert power, kind of what he's talking about is instead of 526 00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:44.559 dominating the fremen, winning hearts and minds and gaining hegemony. I love that 527 00:45:44.679 --> 00:45:49.000 interplay, and how kind of by the end of the book they both come 528 00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:53.559 together in the figure of Paul Muadeb who is both the winner of hearts and 529 00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:59.920 minds and the dominator. And then throughout the rest of the trilogy you watch 530 00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:07.559 his winning of hearts and minds continually degrade into just a pure domination, right, 531 00:46:08.519 --> 00:46:12.880 which I think is off. I mean, I'll say another piece of 532 00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:16.280 historical context that I think is really important here is this is coming out in 533 00:46:16.280 --> 00:46:22.119 the nineteen sixties, where basically this is the last decade of the British Empire 534 00:46:22.519 --> 00:46:29.320 and the French Empire, and a lot of the former European colonies, especially 535 00:46:29.400 --> 00:46:34.800 in Africa and Asia, are getting their freedom for the first time, you 536 00:46:34.840 --> 00:46:37.400 know. And so I think, yeah, there's another really interesting aspect of 537 00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:44.000 the story there that's being commented on. Yeah, it's an anti colonial story, 538 00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:52.079 but without the happy ending. Yeah. Well, I think in a 539 00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:57.239 lot of ways Herbert might have been looking at a lot of the anti colonial 540 00:46:57.280 --> 00:47:04.000 movements of the sixties and seventies and what ended up happening as anti colonial groups 541 00:47:04.519 --> 00:47:12.079 become the rulers of their of their now independent country and lose the hearts and 542 00:47:12.119 --> 00:47:16.559 minds of the people and rule increasingly through domination. Yeah, he probably was 543 00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:21.159 looking at a lot of those examples and seeing and seeing what he wanted to 544 00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:22.440 do with this. Yeah, I mean, I think in terms of anti 545 00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:25.199 colonial theory, that's something that's often talked about a lot, is that like 546 00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:30.880 one of the worst parts of creating a situation were the only way that a 547 00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:37.719 oppressed people can find liberation is through armed struggle. Is you're now meaning that 548 00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:42.280 the the government of the newly you know that that there's there's now an armed 549 00:47:42.599 --> 00:47:45.840 force that has won freedom, and that is very difficult to translate into uh 550 00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:51.679 And a lot of the scholarly work particularly has been done by South Africans and 551 00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:55.320 especially black South Africans, has talked a lot about this is that the you 552 00:47:55.320 --> 00:48:00.800 know and that Nelson Mandela especially, who we often forget, was an armed 553 00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:05.519 freedom fighter who committed a number of acts that we think of now as Yes, 554 00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:07.719 they were, you know, fighting an evil regime of apartheid. But 555 00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:13.159 you know, quote unquote, you know, but you know, quote unquote, 556 00:48:13.199 --> 00:48:16.159 innocent civilians were often killed by his actions and they were described absou at 557 00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:21.880 the time by terrorism as terrorism, and would be by the definitions many people 558 00:48:21.960 --> 00:48:24.800 use today. I think it's a word that's you know, grossly misover misunderstood 559 00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:30.079 and misused and hypocritically used. But that that in South Africa, the ability 560 00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:37.920 for it to be a peaceful and democratic transition out of apartheid instead of just 561 00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:42.639 the you know, the defeat of the apartheid government militarily changed a lot. 562 00:48:42.679 --> 00:48:45.599 And I'm very much there afraid. I don't want to get too in just 563 00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:49.519 direct politics. But to be very clear, I'm not using that to say 564 00:48:49.599 --> 00:48:52.280 so therefore oppressed people should never use violence to fight back. I'm saying, 565 00:48:53.559 --> 00:48:58.119 when all other options are cut off, I understand why violence is the option. 566 00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:00.039 I don't think I can critique that it's a good reason for us to 567 00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:05.280 stop using violence to impress people. But now we're getting way off in other 568 00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:08.719 ideas. But yeah, no, I think I think that I think that's 569 00:49:08.760 --> 00:49:12.239 helpful, especially when we think about this is a book that is now, 570 00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:17.599 you know, fifty eight years old, and we're telling it with a fundamentally 571 00:49:17.639 --> 00:49:24.599 different understanding of colonialism and of white supremacy and of white savior ideas and things 572 00:49:24.679 --> 00:49:29.119 like that, and so it makes sense that the story is continuing to evolve 573 00:49:29.199 --> 00:49:31.840 and change in how we see it. And I'm I would say the best 574 00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:36.159 result to me of this conversation with you, and which also the last couple 575 00:49:36.199 --> 00:49:37.719 of days, is then I'm much more excited to see part two of the 576 00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:42.519 movie and ready to be very disappointed, but also ready to be really impressed. 577 00:49:44.199 --> 00:49:47.800 Yeah. Me, I'm hoping. I'm hoping that they can stick the 578 00:49:47.880 --> 00:49:57.320 landing and give us a more complicated neo figure. I mean, I think 579 00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:00.800 I'm probably going to enjoy it anyway. It's one was just so beautifully shot. 580 00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:06.639 That score by Hans Zimmer is just I mean, the movie is just 581 00:50:06.679 --> 00:50:10.840 a joy to watch. And I'll certainly have my critiques, but yeah, 582 00:50:12.199 --> 00:50:15.480 plan and enjoy well, and we'll definitely get you back. I'm gonna make 583 00:50:15.480 --> 00:50:17.039 sure I've read all three books and we're gonna get you back to discuss them 584 00:50:17.079 --> 00:50:22.280 afterwards, especially with some other Rob McKenzie, who's been a frequent cast on 585 00:50:22.280 --> 00:50:24.199 this podcast is a big, big fan of Dune who knows the books very 586 00:50:24.239 --> 00:50:27.320 well. So I'm hoping that the three of us can get back on as 587 00:50:27.320 --> 00:50:29.639 well maybe some other folks, So we'll do a lot more of this, 588 00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:32.800 Steve. For those who don't know you, do you have any published works 589 00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:37.199 that people can find or is there stuff that people can be like, Hey, 590 00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:38.920 the Steve Cox person has some good ideas. I want to see what 591 00:50:38.960 --> 00:50:43.480 I can look at. I'm I'm entirely under the radar. I have kind 592 00:50:43.519 --> 00:50:45.960 of social media I've got I've done nothing for anybody. Sorry, Okay, 593 00:50:46.039 --> 00:50:50.320 the doctoral thesis has not yet. I should be referring to you as doctor 594 00:50:50.360 --> 00:50:53.599 Cox, shouldn't I. Yeah, it's it's still under it's still under quarantine 595 00:50:53.760 --> 00:50:57.960 for I think for another year. Okay, Okay that then you get the 596 00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:00.320 right it's because it's owned by the university right now, and then you get 597 00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:04.400 the right to publish it. Yeah, you know, if you want to 598 00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:07.400 dive for it, you can look for it next year. It's actually on 599 00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:12.760 the anti colonial movement in Egypt and the role that the Muslim Brotherhood played in 600 00:51:12.800 --> 00:51:15.039 it. Nice. Yeah, very very relevant stuff. So thank you so 601 00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:19.480 much, Steve. If you want to hear more of Steve, just stick 602 00:51:19.519 --> 00:51:22.039 with you. If you become a member, you can then get the full 603 00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:24.679 episode. We're gonna do some bonus content about some more specific hopes for the 604 00:51:24.760 --> 00:51:28.920 upcoming movie. If you're not a member already, it's just five dollars a 605 00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:30.800 month fIF or five dollars a year. You get ad free content, you 606 00:51:30.840 --> 00:51:35.440 get bonus content at the end of every most at the end of like ninety 607 00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:39.760 five percent of the episodes. We are going to start doing members only content. 608 00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:43.559 We've started doing that already on Star Wars. We're gonna start doing that 609 00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:46.320 on Superhero Ethics as well. And more than anything, membership also just help 610 00:51:46.360 --> 00:51:50.239 support us keep the lights on. So please think about becoming a member. 611 00:51:50.360 --> 00:51:52.679 If you are a member, stick around for the bonus content. For everybody 612 00:51:52.719 --> 00:52:01.559 else, we have spoken