WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:09.119 Welcome to Idemics Performance and Wellness, where world leading coaches and scientists explain how 2 00:00:09.160 --> 00:00:16.719 their research can help you achieve your personal and professional goals. Foster hi It's 3 00:00:16.760 --> 00:00:21.359 Sanjayanti, co founder and CEO of Idemics Coaching. Coaching has played an important 4 00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:24.440 role in my life. It's helped me through my journey to become a powerful 5 00:00:24.519 --> 00:00:29.519 leader, mother and wife. IDMX coaches help you increase your self awareness, 6 00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:33.359 improve your problem solving skills, and evolve your habits to achieve your goals, 7 00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:36.920 all things I'm grateful to have learned and done through my own coaching journey. 8 00:00:37.399 --> 00:00:41.640 Our easy one minute assessment matches you with an Idemics coach that best fits your 9 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:46.359 needs and values. Each Idemics coach is vetted and experienced. It helps clients 10 00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:50.799 mad and achieve their wellness, professional and business goals. If you or someone 11 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:56.200 you know could benefit from coaching, visit our website at www dotidemics dot com. 12 00:00:56.520 --> 00:00:59.759 We also know that not everyone can invest in coaching right now, and 13 00:00:59.840 --> 00:01:03.920 that's why we provide free coaching in our Coach Shorts episodes. If you think 14 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:07.359 someone you know would benefit from it, please share our podcast with them. 15 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:14.519 Thanks for listening and see you next time. Hi everyone, Welcome to Coaching 16 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:19.719 Performance and Wellness by a DMX Coaching. I'm your host today, Zamita Jayanti. 17 00:01:19.879 --> 00:01:25.400 Joining us on our show today is coach and author Elaine Lynn Herring. 18 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:30.400 She's a reformed lawyer who works with individuals and organizations from a variety of backgrounds 19 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:37.640 across a range of industries to help them enhance their communication, collaboration, and 20 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:44.920 conflict management skills. Her upcoming book, called Unlearning Silence, is being called 21 00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:51.719 an essential read because of its actionable practical strategies. Elaine has a track record 22 00:01:51.799 --> 00:01:57.640 of coaching professionals globally and is really all about breaking down barriers to give everyone 23 00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:01.519 a voice, essential for anyone, a small or large team. Today, 24 00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:08.360 we're going to dive into the why and how of why we silence ourselves and 25 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:13.719 how to break that silence, both for ourselves, our colleagues, our families 26 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:16.840 and friends. Elene, Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having 27 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:24.280 me so Lene, I want to start by defining what we're discussing today. 28 00:02:24.319 --> 00:02:28.319 In some ways, it's very simple. We all know what silence is. 29 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:34.319 We all engage in it regularly, we watch others do so, but we 30 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:38.280 often don't think about it at a deeper level in terms of how it impacts 31 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:43.560 who we are and our behaviors, whether that's in a personal or professional context. 32 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:46.120 So I thought it would be useful for our listeners if I provide an 33 00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:52.000 example from my own life which might be relatable to many of our listeners. 34 00:02:52.879 --> 00:02:59.680 When I worked at pound Heer, a technology company, the culture was very 35 00:02:59.719 --> 00:03:05.719 putarticular. I'm not sure that that culture was by design, it was just 36 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:12.240 sort of by default in many ways, but there was an environment of what 37 00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:15.960 I call sort of false transparency. And what do I mean by that? 38 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:20.439 Right, So you'd go to a meeting where you'd have an open discussion with 39 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:24.240 a group, and as a group, you'd come to some set of decisions 40 00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:30.800 on the best path forward, and everyone would sort of leave that meeting feeling 41 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:35.319 that they had clarity on that path forward. And then a few days later, 42 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:39.479 one of the members of the team would be told to pursue a different 43 00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:46.479 path and that was clearly sort of pretty different from what it had been agreed 44 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:52.960 in the meeting, and that person may or may not convey the reason for 45 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:55.599 the change, just that the change was necessary. And so now we were 46 00:03:55.680 --> 00:04:01.360 kind of on this new path right, And after this happened a few times, 47 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:08.639 you'd notice that many of the people in that group who had previously contributed 48 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:16.319 would stop speaking because they would either feel that their voices weren't being heard or 49 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:23.399 weren't being valued based on that previous pattern that they'd observed and the lack of 50 00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:29.720 communication around why a course of action had changed, not just that it had 51 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:33.240 changed. Right. Yep, some of our listeners might be wondering why that's 52 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:40.360 negative. So tell us why that's negative, and so we can understand I 53 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:45.079 think, at a deeper level the problem that we're really dealing with absolutely the 54 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:48.560 fact that midway through your story, I knew it wasn't yet the end of 55 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:53.800 the story started to signal that it was problematic. We got to the meeting, 56 00:04:53.839 --> 00:05:00.160 we had alignment, and then something changed. So people often tell the 57 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:04.439 benefits of silence right meditative you can think more clearly. There might even be 58 00:05:04.519 --> 00:05:10.680 regeneritive brain cells. All of that that is great. The silence we're talking 59 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:16.519 about is when there is not enough room for your perspectives. The silencing as 60 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:24.079 a verb is when you share your thoughts in this meeting. But then there 61 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:29.680 are signals and data points later on that tell you your perspective doesn't actually matter. 62 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:32.839 And so in this case that you've set up, if I go to 63 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:38.160 a meeting, I put my neck out, I am taking a stand. 64 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:43.600 On the surface, we all agree, but then it has no impact and 65 00:05:43.639 --> 00:05:47.800 in fact things change in the meeting. After the meeting, why show up 66 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:54.360 at all? Why not just sit there and nod because it's useless to speak 67 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:59.160 up anyways. So the silence that we're talking about is the ways that we 68 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:03.120 learn that our voices don't matter, our opinions don't matter, our insights don't 69 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:10.319 matter. And companies, in this false transparency that you mentioned, say all 70 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:14.560 the right things. The values in the employee handbooks say that we value collaboration 71 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:19.920 and innovation, but it seems like only some people's ideas matter or are celebrated, 72 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:26.639 and that's so exactly right. We're left with what am I supposed to 73 00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:30.759 do? Because if I continue to push for my voice to be heard, 74 00:06:31.399 --> 00:06:36.279 I am labeled and branded as aggressive or a troublemaker, or non compliant or 75 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:42.720 not a team maker, a team member, team player. I have to 76 00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:46.959 stomach all of the costs, and each of us, particularly those of us 77 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:50.000 with marginalized identities, whether there's race, gender, class, education, able, 78 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:58.800 all of it. There are disproportionate costs to continuing to push, and 79 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:03.920 so when leaders say things like I am inclusive, my door is always open, 80 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:09.759 your voice really matters. All of those words are empty if your actions 81 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:14.319 don't back it up. And too often, even well intentioned leaders, the 82 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:18.120 way they behave sends the message your voice doesn't matter. By the way, 83 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:25.399 we just need to get shit done if I can say shit, and that 84 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:30.639 has a silencing effect. Essentially, you're building a culture of silence when you 85 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:34.920 purport to have a culture of voice, and that disconnect is really jarring, 86 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:42.800 disorienting, and damaging. Yeah, so well put. I think so many 87 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:51.279 companies suffer from this, right, And it's it's often not a conscious tone 88 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:57.680 that's being set, right, It's not malicious or malintended, but it's sort 89 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:03.040 of an atmosphere that has been created almost as some sort of default from a 90 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:09.040 series of, as you said, behaviors that don't mirror or aren't consistent with 91 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:13.279 the intentions. However well articulated, those may be completely I mean, we 92 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:18.519 did hire a consulting firm to craft those intentions and values for us, so 93 00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:22.240 they must be well crafted right. What I love, Tamita about what you 94 00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:30.519 said is the difference between default and design. That in the workplace environment you 95 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:37.159 were mentioning, it wasn't that someone designed this lack of congruence between what you 96 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:41.200 said and what you did, but it almost defaulted to that. And that's 97 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:46.279 one of the observations that I've had across industries and across leadership teams is that 98 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:52.240 when we do not actively design the culture, not just in aspirations and in 99 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:58.480 named values, but in how we're going to implement that, we default to 100 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:03.000 the culture that serves the people who are ready in power, yeah, who 101 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:07.639 tend to be the people who hold the dominant identities in the room. And 102 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:11.679 so when I think about design, it is thinking very tactically, things like 103 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:18.080 what communication mediums best support the voices of the people on my team, what 104 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:24.879 time of day are they firing on all cylinders versus I'm firing on all cylinders. 105 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:30.679 If I'm a morning person, I naturally default to thinking and scheduling high 106 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:35.000 priority, high value conversations in the morning. But if someone on my team 107 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:37.639 is not wired that way, which typically they're not because people are different, 108 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:43.720 I am essentially inclining them towards silence, even as I purport to invite them 109 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:46.559 to the meeting, and you know we've all got an equal say at this 110 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:52.399 table. Yeah, absolutely, I think you know this is such an important 111 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:58.279 point for anyone in any kind of leadership role. And I mean that really 112 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:03.080 broadly, right, whether you're you're leading a tiny team to a big team, 113 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:09.320 to you're the parent and your family, whatever that may be. Because 114 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:18.559 I think as a leader, your role in a sense is to be part 115 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:24.960 coach and part caregiver and part kind of moderator, right, because you're the 116 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:31.919 only one empowered and positioned to think about each of the individuals on your team 117 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:39.919 and what serves each of them to bring their voice and their best ideas to 118 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:46.919 a gathering and gives them the space and kind of the psychological safety. Right. 119 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:50.879 We talked a lot about this on a previous podcast episode with Professor Amy 120 00:10:52.000 --> 00:11:00.679 Edmondson, to consistently bring their best ideas and their best selves to those interactions. 121 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:05.759 And you can't have psychological safety if you are unintentionally silencing people, right, 122 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:13.519 Absolutely so. In your experience and you've worked with individuals and with teams, 123 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:20.399 how and when do you find people silence themselves most commonly or most frequently 124 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:28.039 when my calculation tells me that it's not worth it for me to use my 125 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:33.080 voice. And I'll say that for me defining voice because I am a recovered 126 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:39.519 Did you call me a recovering lawyer? Recovered? I reform, So I'll 127 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:43.440 go with that. I'm reformed. We still need to define our terms. 128 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:46.799 Voice is not just the words that you say in a meeting, but voice 129 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:52.879 is how you move through the world. Ye, So as a leader, 130 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:58.519 how do I create the space for people to do that? Knowing that each 131 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:01.240 of our voice is how we move through the world, the gifts that we 132 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:07.399 bring, the expertise that we have is going to be different. But part 133 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:11.120 of the challenge is, as I'm doing this calculation of whether it's safe and 134 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:13.759 worth it for me to use my voice to move through the world the way 135 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:20.039 that I want, I have all these data points from my past. So 136 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:24.519 when I walk into a new team environment, I'm still thinking about and I 137 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:28.120 have the data set of the last team I worked in and whether that was 138 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:35.240 low power, high high power differential, whether that was actually only the leader 139 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:41.000 gets to speak. So part of the defaulting to a set of learned behaviors, 140 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:43.039 right, is what you're saying, Yeah, completely and understandably. So 141 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:50.080 yeah, because until I know differently, why would I test the waters to 142 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:56.879 find out the hard way. This is how employee silence is created because very 143 00:12:56.879 --> 00:12:58.840 few of us want to test it out for ourselves. So when we're new 144 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:03.240 to an environment, we're looking around to see what other people do. Yeah, 145 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:07.039 and if other people stay silent, like I have intuited, I have 146 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:11.440 observed what the culture is, and I should probably play by those rules. 147 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:16.039 Right. So I want to take your example from earlier, which is, 148 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:20.159 you know a leader who says, well, my door is always open, 149 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:26.399 you know, everyone's welcome into the tent, and sort of just think about 150 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:31.080 the counter argument, right, because those are often people who say, well, 151 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:33.279 once I've conveyed that, it's kind of everybody else to sort of pick 152 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:39.480 up that gauntlet and go right and come in and talk to me or voice 153 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:48.759 their opinion whatever that is. And at the same time, so why isn't 154 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:54.159 that enough? First of all? Right, because there's a school of thought 155 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:58.799 that I think leaders often have, which is, hey, like I've done 156 00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:03.840 all the right thing, yes totally for my part, yes, and like 157 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:07.360 if it's not working it's not my problem or it's not my fault. Right. 158 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:13.519 It takes me a little bit back to what you said earlier of as 159 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:16.480 leaders, you are coach, you are a caregiver. You play all these 160 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:20.519 different roles, and I can imagine some listeners bristling, I'm not a caregiver. 161 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:24.759 I'm a parent at home, but at work we are all grown adults. 162 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:30.480 So what is my role? Actually? I would argue that saying my 163 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:33.679 door is always open is insufficient for at least two reasons. One is, 164 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:39.559 it is only an expression of intent, and we all know that there's a 165 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:45.039 difference between intent and impact, so it is useful to articulate my door is 166 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:50.679 always open, or I am here, But it fundamentally underestimates how hard it 167 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:56.360 is to walk into someone's office. And if you don't understand the challenge of 168 00:14:56.519 --> 00:15:03.960 walking into someone's office, that to me is a blind spot that needs examination, 169 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:07.000 right because it suggests to me that you have always had the privilege and 170 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:11.840 the welcome to walk in and have a positive experience, Which takes us to 171 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:16.759 our second reason, which is when someone comes into your metaphorical office, how 172 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:22.480 do you react or respond when someone shares with you a question? A concern 173 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:26.639 a point of view. If your reaction in the moment is to debate, 174 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:33.279 to get defensive, you are not living up to this promise or this invitation 175 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:39.480 of my doors always open. You are contributing to the case that it's too 176 00:15:39.559 --> 00:15:45.240 costly for me to actually say what I think show up how I intend with 177 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:52.399 you. Yeah, I mean it's really you know, certainly I had to 178 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:58.519 learn this in kind of growing into successive leadership roles in the past, where 179 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:07.039 I think when you first become a leader, you're sort of under stressed to 180 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:11.039 perform, right, There's this kind of performative quality to it where you're like, 181 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:14.240 it means I have to know everything, and it means I have you 182 00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:17.200 know, there are all these kind of misconceptions, right that are in your 183 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:25.320 head, which you I think quickly learn are totally ill conceived and are super 184 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:30.759 counterproductive. Right, But then you sort of ask yourself the question of, 185 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:34.440 okay, well, so how do I kind of evolve to be a different 186 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:37.799 kind of leader? And you know, some of that obviously can happen through 187 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:52.480 coaching, and yet I think many people struggle to arrive at what you just 188 00:16:52.639 --> 00:17:00.440 articulated, which is it's not about you it's about what is the environment that 189 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:07.200 you are seeking to create, right, Like, I think so many people, 190 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:11.799 almost everyone has gone through this where you go into meetings and there are 191 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.039 always a couple or a few people who are the loudest voices in the room, 192 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:19.200 and those are the voices that get heard, and the other ones just 193 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:25.319 sort of start to fade farther and farther into the background over time. And 194 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:33.599 I think as a leader, it is up to you to hear every to 195 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:37.519 bring out every voice and hear every voice. Yes, you're going to make 196 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:41.160 a decision ultimately, because somebody has to make a decision at the end of 197 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:45.039 all this, right, And I think people often are uncomfortable with the idea 198 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:51.079 of hearing all those views and then coming to whatever decision they come to that 199 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:53.799 obviously is in disagreement with some of those views. Right, tell us a 200 00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:59.680 little bit about that. It's sort of getting comfortable with the idea of hearing 201 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:04.559 lots of different points of view they may often be opposing to, and then 202 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:11.119 getting comfortable with the idea of making a decision and standing by that. Let's 203 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:15.079 break that down into two phases. One is, how do you even get 204 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:18.880 differences of opinion, because in that room, when you say, you know, 205 00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:22.240 in a six person meeting, typically two people do most of the talking, 206 00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:26.920 and it feeds into this Babbel hypothesis of leadership, that quantity of airtime 207 00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:30.319 signals leadership, and it is often perceived in that way. So how do 208 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:36.160 we even break that down? This is our role as leaders, as facilitators 209 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:41.400 to invite in different perspectives, but how we do it also matters because just 210 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:45.839 to say, guys, tell me what you think. That seems like an 211 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:52.359 open again, magnanimous invitation. I'm saying I'm inviting you in. But if 212 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:56.160 I'm on the receiving end of that statement, I'm thinking, do you really 213 00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:00.119 want to know? How honest should I be? The last time I was 214 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:03.400 really candid, it did not go over so well. So what I would 215 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:07.680 recommend, and what I coach people to do, is to use standard questions. 216 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:10.599 It could be what are the pros of this idea? What are the 217 00:19:10.599 --> 00:19:14.279 cons of this idea? What about this works? What about this doesn't? 218 00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:19.799 From your perspective, What that does is invite in the dissenting perspective without people 219 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:26.680 having to worry as much about being disagreeable. And also you're training your team 220 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:30.359 over time. Okay, I know that Samita's going to ask us what works, 221 00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:36.400 what doesn't, pros cons good, bad, ugly. So those of 222 00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:45.599 us who process differently and process better with time can sort of pre process and 223 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:48.599 show up with more of our insights. So that's one set, which is 224 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.920 how to even get those perspectives. The second is the construct I use most 225 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:57.799 in coaching, which is three buckets. In any situation, there are people 226 00:19:57.799 --> 00:20:02.359 who are going to be informed about the decision, they are going to be 227 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:04.720 people who are consulted about the decision, and then there are people who are 228 00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:10.519 actually going to make the decision. And that is just how things work. 229 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:14.759 And we do a round robin of sometimes you are making the decision and I'm 230 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:18.200 consulted or I'm informed, and sometimes I'm making the decision. So as a 231 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:22.079 matter of a leader, as a leader, if I can get clear which 232 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:26.519 decisions do I own, and let me be clear and transparent and everyone is 233 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:33.039 aligned, you're being consulted and consulted, means share your opinion, share your 234 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:36.799 best take on it, and let's be clear. At the end of the 235 00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:41.279 day, decisions are not made by consensus. They are made by this One 236 00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:45.799 two or three people, but allows us to show up fully and then to 237 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:52.079 also own the decisions that we have, and also to delegate the decisions that 238 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:56.400 are not ours to make, and to remember as a leader, if I've 239 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:02.119 delegated the decision to someone else, I am only a consult or, an 240 00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:06.680 inform I need to back them up and not undercut them. Yeah, no, 241 00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:11.640 absolutely, I think that's such a good point. I also think clarity 242 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:19.720 around who is making a decision just as important, I think is an evaluation 243 00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:26.640 of past decisions and some honesty and some honest discussion around hey, we got 244 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:30.119 that right, or I got that right, or we also got that wrong, 245 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:33.000 or we could have done a better job, whatever that is, because 246 00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:40.519 I think the lack of acknowledgement of the things that didn't work almost seems to 247 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:44.000 suggest that every decision has worked, and that's never the case, as we 248 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:49.880 know, for anybody, however brighter, whatever they are. And it really 249 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:56.680 SAPs the transparency and the openness in a group right to not have that acknowledgment, 250 00:21:56.759 --> 00:22:00.400 because in the end, it's a leader not displaying their vulnerability completely. 251 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:04.519 And I would argue, as a leader, if you're not talking about those 252 00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:10.119 things, what message does your silence on that topic, on that failure, 253 00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:14.519 on what did not go as well, or on what we learned from this? 254 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:19.519 What does your silence communicate? Yeah? And is it communicating the message 255 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:25.480 you actually want if not say something about it? Ye, So you get 256 00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:30.519 to craft the narrative and influence the narrative rather than letting people fill in the 257 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:34.039 narrative of what you meant by that silence, Because maybe you didn't mean anything 258 00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:37.839 by the silence, maybe you were too busy. But the message that's out 259 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:41.599 there is I guess we don't talk about how we messed up here, We 260 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:48.599 just moved on, or they're just trying to cover their own Yeah. So 261 00:22:48.759 --> 00:22:57.640 Lene, as we're talking, I'm struggling to reconcile something with the need and 262 00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:03.160 the work that you do to help individuals and teams unlearned silence. You know, 263 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:11.440 we live in a world where opinions are constantly being expressed in every medium, 264 00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:18.599 even on matters that don't necessarily pertain to the individual expressing their opinion, 265 00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:22.720 and often with sort of a lack of knowledge and facts, right Like, 266 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:26.480 we see this in the media, where so much reporting has become a series 267 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:33.119 of outbed pieces. We see it pervasively on every type of social media, 268 00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:42.079 and so people don't have a problem expressing opinions clearly, often even not fact 269 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:48.400 based ones. And yet even though there's no silencing of themselves, there there 270 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:56.400 is often in a professional sphere. Help us understand that inconsistency. Well, 271 00:23:56.440 --> 00:24:00.359 I'd argue that there's a couple more of layers to it, because we love 272 00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:06.480 complexity. One is, not everybody is viewing opinions, so there is a 273 00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:11.640 population that is very vocal, often not fact based. And then there's another 274 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:14.319 contingent of people who are like, I don't want to say anything, and 275 00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:18.240 if I worry about saying anything makes me look like them. And I'd argue, 276 00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:22.960 if you're in that camp, or have that proclivity of worrying about whether 277 00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:29.680 you are overbearing, taking up too much space to opinionated, you're not, 278 00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:36.200 you're not. You can probably up that anti but also thinking not just about 279 00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:40.319 how do I share my opinion, but why am I doing it? For 280 00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:44.960 what purpose? For what impact? And in what way can I communicate to 281 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:48.359 have the impact that I actually want? Because it doesn't mean tweeting everything. 282 00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:53.039 Yeah, it could mean the one on one conversation. It could mean you 283 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:56.519 know think again about your voice is how you want to move through the world. 284 00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:03.920 So I se see less of an inconsistency and I see more of the 285 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:11.640 challenge of so many different voices us getting tired of the noise. How do 286 00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:15.160 we cut through that noise and also how do we get different voices in the 287 00:25:15.160 --> 00:25:19.680 mix because we know that the systems around us, Let's take corporate America for 288 00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:29.680 example, tends to prioritize the ways that white cis men communicate. Emotions are 289 00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:36.119 really tricky territory. Vulnerability in and of itself, authenticity in and of itself 290 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:41.039 is really tricky territory for anyone who has subordinated in identities because you are inherently 291 00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:45.680 othered, or you stick out as a sore thrum, or your credibility is 292 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:52.799 already on the line. So there's just complexity to it, which to me 293 00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:57.160 leads to this question of what are the levers that we can pull and push 294 00:25:57.799 --> 00:26:02.519 if what we care about is actually belonging, dignity and justice for every human 295 00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:07.200 being, including in our workplaces. And my answer is one lever is let's 296 00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:14.799 examine the ways that we silence ourselves, the ways that we have internalized the 297 00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:19.079 messages that people have sent us, unintentionally or intentionally over time about our value, 298 00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:25.880 our worth, our perspective. Second leaver is what impact are we having 299 00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:29.440 on the people around us? In what ways are we silencing them? Even 300 00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:33.440 as we talked about that well intentioned leader whose door is always open even when 301 00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:38.200 we don't intend. And third well is what ways do the policies and practices 302 00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:45.200 that we have in place silence certain people while celebrating others? Yeah totally makes 303 00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:48.680 sense. Yeah, totally makes sense. So I want to shift gears a 304 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:56.440 little bit. I think we've talked a lot about why people silence themselves and 305 00:26:56.440 --> 00:27:00.519 how environments matter. Right, let's talk a little bit about some of the 306 00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:07.839 practical, tactical strategies to unlearned those behaviors. You know, I'm reminded of 307 00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:14.880 a coaching client that we had who was, you know, super high performer, 308 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:22.720 kind of ascending the levels in the organization. And one of the problems 309 00:27:22.759 --> 00:27:34.200 that she identified was that she doesn't feel heard or and acknowledge that she doesn't 310 00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:38.680 feel she can contribute to discussions in you know, kind of the broader team. 311 00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:45.319 And we talked about, you know, her coach worked with her on 312 00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:47.960 kind of all the reasons why, which goes to your point of like, 313 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:51.680 what are the things in our background and experience that kind of lead us to 314 00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:56.359 that point? And I think developing self awareness around what those are then helps 315 00:27:56.440 --> 00:28:02.240 us to think constructively about the path forward. And her coach gave her a 316 00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:07.640 really the practical tactical thing that the coach gave her to do was she said, 317 00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:11.039 you're going to go back and from this day on and you're going to 318 00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:18.240 write this down every day in a interaction of some kind that is more than 319 00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:25.160 one on one, it's some kind of group setting. You're going to force 320 00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:27.319 yourself to say one thing. You're not going to think about how intelligent it 321 00:28:27.400 --> 00:28:30.680 is, you know, whether it's exactly right. You're not going to do 322 00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:33.160 any of those things. You're just going to force yourself to say one thing 323 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:36.880 in each of those meetings, and you're going to write down that thing that 324 00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:44.359 you said. And it was such a powerful thing for her, you know, 325 00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:48.720 I mean it was it was It really helped her stick her toe into 326 00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:52.480 a new behavior that was strange and alien at first, but then became more 327 00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:59.559 and more familiar as she went on, and it launched her on this path 328 00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:07.480 you on learning her own silence and figuring out what her preferred mode was going 329 00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:12.160 to be of engaging with groups. Yep, I only bring that up as 330 00:29:12.200 --> 00:29:15.519 an example, but you know, you've worked with so many people tell us 331 00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:21.839 about some of those practical tactical strategies. Yeah. I noticed my heart rate 332 00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:23.720 going up a little bit when the coach was saying, you have to do 333 00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:26.680 this every day for the rest of your life, because no, no, 334 00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:30.000 it was like, try it every day for the next week. That was 335 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:32.720 okay, good, Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, that's what I 336 00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:37.559 heard. I would recommend a time bound experiment, right, because we can 337 00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:40.960 do something for a week, we can do something for three weeks even, 338 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:44.319 but for the rest of your life. I know it's too infinite. Yeah, 339 00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:49.799 yeah, too infinite. The other place I would start is why why 340 00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:55.440 do you want to speak up? Not speak up for the sake of speaking 341 00:29:55.559 --> 00:29:59.440 up or adding to the cacophony, But what is it you bring? What 342 00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:03.160 is the person perspective or the value or what do you think is missing from 343 00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:10.799 the conversation. This is all of the change research, whether we're changing systems 344 00:30:10.839 --> 00:30:15.720 or behaviors, but having to have a bigger why to anchor to so that 345 00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:19.480 when the waves get rough, you can anchor back to well, this is 346 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:23.039 why I'm doing it. On the personal front, this is because I want 347 00:30:23.079 --> 00:30:30.240 a different life from my kids at work, because representation matters or whatever it 348 00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:36.799 is. What is your bigger why that makes the ruffles if there are worth 349 00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:44.799 it. The second is something I find in incredibly frustrating but necessary, which 350 00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:49.440 is how do you connect the dots between your pieces of data and your reasoning 351 00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:52.799 to get to the conclusions? And this is Chris Archers and John Sean right. 352 00:30:55.119 --> 00:31:00.240 But the rigor necessary because of how differently we see the world and the 353 00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:06.480 differences in our life experience, is especially in a global workforce. So that 354 00:31:06.759 --> 00:31:11.200 rigor of I think this is obvious, obviously we should take this course of 355 00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:15.759 action. Where is that coming from? Because it's not usually as obvious to 356 00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:22.599 others. The third I would add is what are you specifically asking of the 357 00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:26.119 other person? Are we clear what we're asking of them? Because if we're 358 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:32.680 not even clear for ourselves, how will they understand what we're asking? And 359 00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:38.519 this is the bigodous YouTube video of It's not about the nail, where it's 360 00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:45.400 a it seems like a romantic partnership and they people should just google, not 361 00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:49.160 about the nail, but are we clear what we're actually asking the people? 362 00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:55.079 And the fourth that I would add, and these four pieces are in chapter 363 00:31:55.240 --> 00:32:00.000 seven of the book. The fourth is engage resistance. In an ideal world, 364 00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:06.400 when we show up, we would be welcomed with warm embrace. And 365 00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:09.279 we don't live in an ideal world, and so often when we're met with 366 00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:16.799 someone's defensiveness, someone's pushback, someone's silence, we get thrown off kilter and 367 00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:22.279 that is often the end of our negotiation or of our conversation, because we 368 00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:29.240 need recovery time. But going in with the mindset of yeah, there's going 369 00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:35.720 to be resistance means that we're less surprised when it happens, and we're more 370 00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:42.039 able to see resistance, friction, frustration, their concerns, their defensiveness actually 371 00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:45.599 is information. Yeah, And then a question of what do you do with 372 00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:50.440 that information? Right? How do you have the patience and the wherewithal to 373 00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:52.759 come back? How many rounds do you go? And those are all really 374 00:32:52.799 --> 00:33:00.240 important questions, but those four anchors tend to ground us in how do I 375 00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:05.599 actually show up? Those are great practical, tactical things. I'm so glad 376 00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:12.480 that you articulated it that way. Last question, You know, each of 377 00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:21.440 us has some work to do on how to bring ourselves into spaces, groups, 378 00:33:21.640 --> 00:33:31.400 conversations, but equally sometimes our own behaviors inadvertently, as we were saying, 379 00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:38.920 right, not consciously, are the result of them is to silence others. 380 00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:44.599 How can we develop some consciousness around when we're doing that? You know, 381 00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:50.400 I think of in my family with three children, you know, certainly 382 00:33:50.440 --> 00:33:55.480 one is kind of often the loudest voice in the room, and for me, 383 00:33:55.799 --> 00:34:01.799 I've always tried to, you know, kind of encourage everyone to speak 384 00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:07.359 right and make sure that each person is heard and not interrupted in all those 385 00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:13.920 things. So talk a little bit about that. How can we be conscious 386 00:34:13.960 --> 00:34:19.199 about that? Yeah, that to me actually goes back to design rather than 387 00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:24.559 default, which we started at earlier today. Also knowing that voice doesn't have 388 00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:30.480 to look like airtime, right, vo two very different things. So part 389 00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:37.519 of the design is are there a synchronous ways or written type text based ways 390 00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:45.000 that people can share their thoughts because we know essentially the awarenesses we're all wired 391 00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:50.079 differently, which we know here are some ways that we're wired differently. We're 392 00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:53.239 wired differently in how we process in the ease of communication, in the way 393 00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:58.480 that we prefer to move through the world. And how do we optimize for 394 00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:04.800 voice, meaning is there some combination of put things in slack or in email 395 00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:13.519 or you don't have to speak in that meeting and I can hear people's resistance 396 00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:16.320 already happening. But that's just the way things work around here. Think about 397 00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:21.440 whose voices come forward in those meetings and how can you lower the barriers to 398 00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:27.000 communication. And that may take some pre planning and some intentionality, but it's 399 00:35:27.079 --> 00:35:32.559 really just forming different habits than the ones that we have defaulted too. So 400 00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:37.039 if we're having the meeting, do we leave the decision at the end of 401 00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:40.599 the meeting? Here's the placeholder, here's where we're at. Everyone go home, 402 00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:45.800 sleep on it. For those of us who are post processors, you'll 403 00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:47.960 probably figure out in twenty minutes after the meeting what you really wanted to say. 404 00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:52.400 And we want your genius to be in the mix to stave off the 405 00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:59.760 crisis down the line. Can we build that process in so that different voices 406 00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:06.400 forward and their research and our experience shows that that actually is to everyone's benefit. 407 00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:09.960 It takes some unfront work, but the awareness that we're all different and 408 00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:19.280 that we can actually design differently rather than just defaulting is key. That's yeah, 409 00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:23.000 I think that's it's so relevant. And you know, many times you 410 00:36:23.079 --> 00:36:30.480 hear people say all these different channels are a source of overwhelm for them, 411 00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:32.880 right, because some people prefer to express themselves on Slack and other people do 412 00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:37.559 it on the zoom call and somebody else goes into someone else's office, and 413 00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:44.559 everyone's modality is sort of slightly different. Yes, but I think because of 414 00:36:44.599 --> 00:36:50.920 the differences among us and because of the different comfort levels that people have with 415 00:36:51.039 --> 00:36:53.400 the way that they want to communicate, and those can be different by individual 416 00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:57.679 too, right, Like it's not as the one person just uses one way 417 00:36:57.719 --> 00:37:02.079 all the time. It's it's sort of a reality I think of the workplace, 418 00:37:02.119 --> 00:37:06.000 and I think it doesn't need to lead to overwhelm. Like because someone 419 00:37:06.039 --> 00:37:08.599 slacks you doesn't mean that you have to answered that slack at midnight. You 420 00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:13.119 know, you can process that the next morning and deal with it then, 421 00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:17.000 right, Well, And what helps, though is clarity as to the norms. 422 00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:22.239 Yeah, So one of my aims would be, can we actually just 423 00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:25.440 have a discussion, right, what about the ways we're communicating works and doesn't 424 00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:30.320 work, is optimal or suboptimal, And you may find that actually everybody in 425 00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:35.159 your team hates slack. Right then, why are we using it? Probably 426 00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:37.960 because we assumed that someone else preferred it. Right now, what are the 427 00:37:38.039 --> 00:37:45.000 norms around how quickly we need to reply, what it actually means? All 428 00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:52.679 of those, if it is discussable, helps us optimize and also lowers again 429 00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:58.400 lowers the barrier to entry for communication because one of the fundamental challenges about speaking 430 00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:02.440 up or using your voices, how am I supposed to get through to you? 431 00:38:02.679 --> 00:38:06.480 Reply to my emails? I get lost in it. You keep canceling 432 00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:10.440 our one on ones of texting, you feel a little too personal. But 433 00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:15.039 have we had that thirty second conversation of Hey, if I wanted to send 434 00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:20.280 you an urgent message, what's the best way for the best way, what's 435 00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:24.079 the best way? Because we spend so much time whack them all trying and 436 00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:30.599 not knowing. Yeah, I want to speak more efficient totally. WELLNN, 437 00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:34.840 thank you so much for your thoughts, for your advice, and we look 438 00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:40.280 forward to your book. Thank you, thanks for having me, Thanks for 439 00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:45.920 listening. Please subscribe wherever you listen and leave us a review. Find your 440 00:38:45.960 --> 00:38:52.039 ideal coach at www dot viidmix dot com. Special thanks to our producer Martin 441 00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:53.079 Mluski and singer songwriter Doug Allen.