WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.560 --> 00:00:05.960 I'm Casey Tanner and I'm Camille Lewis. And this is safe word. Safe 2 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:10.000 word is sex therapy unhinged because instead of being a blank slate that's just here 3 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:13.759 to support you, we're telling you all the details on our own sex lives, 4 00:00:13.839 --> 00:00:18.320 relationships, identities, and more. This isn't sex and it's not therapy, 5 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:22.399 but we are sex therapists and what you hear today makesite you. Each 6 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:27.000 week we tackle theme related to sex, relationships, gender and more. This 7 00:00:27.039 --> 00:01:03.799 week we're diving into gender with our guest of Yon Whitney. This week We've 8 00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:07.200 got a surprise in store our amazing guest, Evan. Evan Whitney is a 9 00:01:07.239 --> 00:01:12.040 sexuality du LA, sex educator and sensualist. Since twenty eleven, their work 10 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:18.680 has focused on decolonizing, unshaming, and liberating sexuality at the intersection of identity, 11 00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:22.640 trauma, healing, pleasure, and embodiment. Evian is the author of 12 00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:26.840 Sensual Self Prompts and Practices for Getting in Touch with your Body, a self 13 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:30.079 guided journal that will help you prioritize your pleasure and come home to yourself through 14 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:34.840 your senses. They also host a beloved podcast by the same name for more 15 00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:40.159 about Vian's work. Go to von Whitney dot com or follow them on Instagram 16 00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:44.760 at Von dot Whitney. So Evion, we are so thrilled to have you 17 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:49.159 here, maybe a little bit anxious or some nervous energy in our virtual studio 18 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:55.280 today. We cannot believe it. Yeah, You've been an inspiration to me 19 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:59.159 for a very long time before I ever started my Instagram account, and so 20 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:02.159 just really it's surreal to have you. Oh, thank you so much. 21 00:02:02.200 --> 00:02:06.799 I'm like so happy to be here and really excited that you all asked me 22 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:12.080 to join you in this conversation. I'm excited, very good. We're yeah, 23 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:15.719 we're thrilled, and I love You're a really like somatic, body oriented 24 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:22.280 approach to pleasure. It's very much where I operate from in my work as 25 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:25.560 a therapist. So it's really it's great to just see alignment there and the 26 00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:30.400 way that you express yourself. So really really thrilled to have you here. 27 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:37.240 M thank you. Yeah, I'm like really into the body, Like I'm 28 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:42.960 really fascinated by it and especially like marrying this study of the body, or 29 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:47.319 this fascination and deep reverence for the body with sexuality and gender expression. It's 30 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:52.039 just to me, it's just juicy combo. So I'm really happy to be 31 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:54.800 here to talk to you all about all of that. Well, to start 32 00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:59.000 out, we wanted to do just a couple of ice breakers with you. 33 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:05.960 Is that okay? Totally hit me first, consensual way, of course. 34 00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:13.280 So as you know, our show is called Safe Word, and so we 35 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:17.800 like to ask our guests what your safe word is if you have one. 36 00:03:20.879 --> 00:03:23.960 You know, I'm I'm laughing because you all gave me a little bit of 37 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:30.479 a preview of what this conversation was going to be. And you told me 38 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:34.159 that you would be asking me what my safe word is. And I was 39 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:36.639 like, oh my god, do I have a safe word? So I 40 00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:38.800 asked my partner what is our safe word? Do we have a safe word? 41 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:42.520 And he was like, oh my god, you don't remember, Like 42 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:46.639 we've been talking about this, you don't remember. And I was like, 43 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:50.319 no, no, like I don't remember the safe word. Oh no. 44 00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:55.879 And then he just like said some gobbledegook about like banana mash sandwiches or something 45 00:03:55.919 --> 00:04:01.080 like that, and I was like, oh, you're pulling my Yeah, 46 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:05.000 he was totally messing with me. So I tell that story to say I 47 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:10.199 actually don't have a safe word, and I don't know what that says about 48 00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:14.639 me as as a sexuality educator in Dulah, but yeah, I don't. 49 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:20.240 I don't have one. I wonder if maybe part of it is with you 50 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:25.839 and your partner partners, that you have other ways of signaling to each other 51 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:30.079 when something isn't safe that isn't necessarily a code word, I think. So, 52 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:33.680 I mean, I feel really lucky that I have been in partnership with 53 00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:38.519 my partner for sixteen years and we just know each other, we get each 54 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:43.839 other, and I think there's a lot of nonverbal cues that he picks up 55 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:46.199 on and also same with him. So yeah, I think not having a 56 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:51.000 safe word is a testament to just me feeling really safe in my sexual relationships, 57 00:04:51.079 --> 00:04:55.399 which is great. You know, that's good news. It's beautiful, 58 00:04:56.199 --> 00:04:59.360 that's wonderful news. Yeah. I think that like a safe word can just 59 00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:02.000 be like a sig or attunement, which is what you're speaking about, a 60 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:09.360 shared language that is communicated through the body, And yeah, that's really lovely. 61 00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:12.959 Yeah, yeah, that's actually making me think about like what happens in 62 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:16.240 my body, like what my partner might pick up on that might be that 63 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:21.839 safe word or like safe verbal que and sometimes, I mean, he knows 64 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:28.360 me so well that there are sometimes where I'm in this space of feeling like 65 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:31.240 disconnected from my body, or I might be triggered during the act of sex, 66 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:35.759 and I don't exactly know what he sees, but I have a sense 67 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:41.160 of what happens in my body, which is like I start to like I 68 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:46.480 start to leave my body a little bit, and I start to feel disconnected 69 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:53.600 from the experience, like maybe I'm not fully present to him or whatever we're 70 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:58.040 doing. And I think that that shows or tracks because he's able to be 71 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:01.079 like, WHOA, let's pause, are you okay? Are you still here 72 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:05.439 in the room? Which I really appreciate that he is able to attune himself 73 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:10.160 to me in that way, because oftentimes I'm just like WHOA, I guess, 74 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:13.319 oh, I guess I did sort of leave my body in that moment, 75 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:16.240 or I guess I do need to take a pause and take a moment 76 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:23.399 to recalibrate this experience and figure out if it works for me. So yeah, 77 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:27.600 it's I love that invitation to think about like the safe words that come 78 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:31.240 from the body and not so much from our from our voices or our our 79 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:38.240 words credible. Maybe we need to start changing this prompt safe for me, 80 00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:44.959 safe signal that. Okay, we've got one more icebreaker. So, with 81 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:47.680 a gender theme in mind, wanted each of us to answer this question if 82 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:50.759 your gender was a metaphor, if you have a metaphor for your gender, 83 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:55.439 what would it be? Either of you could start, Um, I have 84 00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:58.720 something top of mine. But Camille, if you if you want to go, 85 00:06:58.920 --> 00:07:02.480 it's all you, please take it away. Okay. So I was 86 00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:09.040 doing some vision boarding today this morning, and there was a clipping that got 87 00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:13.439 cut out that said eternal yet ephemeral. And I feel like that is the 88 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:17.480 essence of my gender, eternal yet ephemeral. That is so beautiful, my 89 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:26.000 cry. It didn't come from me, It came from the clippings. Yeah 90 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:30.279 yeah, wow, I love that. That came today too, Just in 91 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:34.399 time, Just in time? Yeah question yeah, really really beautiful. But 92 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:39.240 Camille Casey, I'd love to hear what yours are. Oh no, if 93 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:47.519 I can follow competition next, I mean, okay, So I was thinking 94 00:07:47.560 --> 00:07:53.040 about this. My first reaction was dog dad, because when I think of 95 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:57.800 like a dog dad, there's this very particular image that comes to mine and 96 00:07:57.959 --> 00:08:01.360 something about the energy of that I feel like really captures my gender. But 97 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:05.920 then I was thinking about a disco ball or just like disco in general, 98 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:11.480 just the vibe of disco, which is genderless in this way, but also 99 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:15.959 there are pieces of masculinity, pieces of femininity, a little bit of dancing. 100 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:20.279 That's that's where I landed. Disco. Yeah, I love that. 101 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:24.759 I like that too, thank you. I think a few things are coming 102 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:26.959 up for me, Like one is like a vase or like a shapely vasic. 103 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:31.240 I'm very into like curvature, Yeah, like flowy vases. So I 104 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:35.759 feel like maybe that's what's capturing it today or just like in this moment as 105 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:39.960 I'm thinking about the metaphor, it'll probably change though. Let us know, 106 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:43.840 it's such a good point that, you know, what captures our attention around 107 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:48.440 gender today is going to be different than maybe tomorrow or even in an hour. 108 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:52.360 So let us know what evolve if it evolves through this episode as we 109 00:08:52.440 --> 00:08:56.720 answer these amazing questions. Oh okay, all right, speaking of questions, 110 00:08:56.720 --> 00:09:05.720 should we dive in? Yeah, let's dive in. So our first question 111 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:11.320 asks can you have feelings of dysphoria without being trans this person says, I'm 112 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:16.679 a CIS woman and I feel deeply uncomfortable when I feel too mask I would 113 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:20.960 say yes, I would say I think so. I think that gender dysphoria 114 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:28.679 isn't solely an experience that trans and gender nonconforming folks feel. And I actually 115 00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:35.000 like the idea that CIS folks would be tapping into gender dysphoria as like, 116 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:39.639 maybe that will help humanize the gender dysphoria that trans folks feel, and you 117 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:43.639 know, gender nonconforming people feel of like, yeah, this is a universal 118 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:48.600 experience, may not be felt in the same or similar ways, but that 119 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:52.960 it is possible for us to feel a sense of enthusiastic yes and also an 120 00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:58.080 enthusiastic no when it comes to our particular gender expression. So I would say 121 00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:01.960 yes, but I'm curious about what y'all think. I similarly, A'm leaning 122 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:09.399 towards yes definitely as dysphoria being kind of like a universal, potentially experience. 123 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:15.000 And it also seems like presentation gender presentation is a question here. I think, 124 00:10:15.080 --> 00:10:18.360 Yeah, I like the idea of of being more humanizing so that it 125 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:22.639 doesn't have to feel like something that's siloed to a specific group. Or that 126 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:28.320 you have to have permission to enter dysphoria, that it can just it can 127 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:33.159 happen. Sometimes. I'm with you there, I think when I when I 128 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:37.399 hear this particular person's set of experiences, I'm a SIS woman and I feel 129 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:39.600 deeply uncomfortable when I feel too mask. I think the question it brings up 130 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:45.240 for me is because because I often think about dysphoria as you know, the 131 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:48.159 distress or the feeling that comes with the feeling of not being aligned with yourself, 132 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:52.200 which of course could happen for anybody regardless of gender. But when I 133 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:56.759 hear somebody say I'm a CIS woman and I feel deeply uncomfortable when I feel 134 00:10:56.759 --> 00:11:00.639 too mask, I also wonder what is what is the name? Is there 135 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:03.000 a name for the feeling that we have when we're embodied something that we don't 136 00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:09.440 feel allowed to embody which might be slightly different from what doesn't make us feel 137 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:16.120 aligned like could potentially this as a woman as she feels mask feel dysphoria because 138 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:22.960 she doesn't feel allowed to inhabit that or because because there's not been room for 139 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:26.240 her to inhabit it versus dysphoria. So I just wonder if maybe there's like 140 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:31.120 a little bit of nuance there when the thing that causes dysphoria is something that 141 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:37.200 we've been we've been taught we're not allowed to inhabit. Is there is there 142 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:39.000 a difference or maybe there's you know, maybe we don't have an answer for 143 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:43.519 that. M Does that make sense? Yeah? Yeah, no that What 144 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:48.240 that brings up for me is also this question around like is there this feeling 145 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:52.639 of, for lack of a better term, like fear of masculinity, Like 146 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:58.759 maybe there is this feeling or there could be a possibility to open up to 147 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:01.759 being masks, But it's like, I don't know. I think that my 148 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:07.759 missandry comes through sometimes when he thinks about like masculinity and like, oh, 149 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:11.000 I don't want to be a man like man suck, you know. But 150 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:13.279 yeah, I'm wondering if that's also a piece of it too, Like what 151 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:18.480 if we could decide what is masculine? Like what if we can rewrite the 152 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:24.559 scripts of what masculinity is? And would that offer this person and all of 153 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:30.559 us like different expressions of that that we get to choose feel good to us 154 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:35.960 Because there isn't one example or expression of masculinity, just as there isn't one 155 00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:39.960 example or expression of femininity. So I wonder if like, and it's totally 156 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:43.399 okay for this person, they're just like, nope, not mask having an 157 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:48.759 interest, it's not my ministry. But like, if there is some curiosity 158 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:54.279 about like is the reason why I feel dysphoria around my maskedness? Does it 159 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:58.639 relate to like that's just not my ministry or it's like I actually have some 160 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:05.159 fear or I've been harmed by masculinity and it feels like that isn't something that 161 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:11.759 I can properly embody because it just feels unsafe in some capacity. I don't 162 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:13.960 know. That's that's what came up for me as I was saying to you 163 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:20.320 speak no, I think harmed by or even punished for embracing it in the 164 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:28.360 past could be part of that too. Yeah, okay, next question another 165 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:33.799 big one. If gender is a construct, then why am I only attracted 166 00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:41.360 the one gender? What's coming up for you all? Like break the seal? 167 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:46.840 I can I can share thought like I think that I'm like a big 168 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:50.559 fan of like yes, and and all things can be true. Gender can 169 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:56.519 be a construct and is a construct, and you can still lean a certain 170 00:13:56.600 --> 00:14:01.240 way within that we still operate within it. Race a construct, and me 171 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:07.080 being primarily attracted to black folks, both things are true, And I can 172 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:09.840 be curious about the construct of race and how it plays out, white supremacy, 173 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:16.480 heteronormativity, and all of these things and still be part of my life 174 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:20.600 and part of the language in which I was raised and how I was socialized. 175 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:24.799 So I think that it can be a construct, but you can also 176 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:28.080 live and operate within it to the extent that you feel comfortable, and the 177 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:35.080 permission giving to yourself to explore that and explore what it means for you to 178 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:39.919 have attraction, and what it means for you to have romantic attraction and sexual 179 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:43.919 attraction and platonic attraction, and all of the ways in which gender probably shows 180 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:48.879 up very variant in your life that in ways you're not aware of. Yeah, 181 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:52.519 I mean, I would add to that there are many different ways to 182 00:14:52.679 --> 00:15:00.639 be attracted to somebody, and that sexual attraction isn't the only quality fire of 183 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:05.840 you being attracted to someone. I think about this a lot around like ACE 184 00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:11.360 folks, and I myself identify as ACE or an asexual person on the A 185 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:18.320 spectrum, and how I experience little to no sexual attraction, but I have 186 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:24.600 like other spaces of attraction that lights me up and makes me feel really good 187 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:26.679 about the people that I'm with, not even just platonic, but I'm like, 188 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:33.360 you know, there's esthetic attraction. There's like emotional attraction, like I 189 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:37.039 feel a sense of like, oh, I love that person's emotional availability and 190 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:41.639 the way that they're able to have this intelligence about their own feelings, and 191 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:46.200 that is really attractive to me. There is like spiritual attraction, sensual attraction, 192 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:54.480 like I would. I'm of the belief that there is no such thing 193 00:15:54.799 --> 00:16:00.759 as being one hundred percent of anything. So whenever one's like, I'm one 194 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:07.159 hundred percent straight, I'm like, uh huh, because there's there's nothing straight 195 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:10.879 in nature. There's nothing perfectly straight in nature. You can look at a 196 00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:14.080 tree and it's it's never going to be perfectly straight. Even if it's just 197 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:19.240 like ninety nine percent or ninety nine point five percent, there's still there, 198 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:23.480 there's still some variance. And so I just I wonder about I wonder about 199 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:30.320 someone who says that they're only attracted to a particular gender, Like it is 200 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:33.799 that true when you think about just like the variance and the nuance and the 201 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:38.399 spectrum that happens with attraction. Because if you see attraction in this black or 202 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:41.759 white like I'm attracted to you, I'm not attracted to you sexually kind of 203 00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:45.200 way, then yes, I would buy that. But if we're expanding our 204 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:52.960 definition and our our own experience of attraction, you might find that there's a 205 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:57.000 little bit more wiggle room. There's a small percentage that might find that attraction. 206 00:16:57.159 --> 00:17:00.519 It just may not look the ways that you're used to at looking. 207 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:07.880 Yeah, agree with everything both of you said. I think too when I 208 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:11.920 think about the way that the construct of gender has been built, It's been 209 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:17.599 built to mean a certain way that emotions look. Right, this gender's set 210 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:22.240 of emotions looks this way. It's meant it was built to capture a certain 211 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:25.480 kind of body, a certain kind of way of moving through the world, 212 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:30.799 a certain kind of expression. That's that's what this fake construct has been has 213 00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:32.880 been built upon, right, all of those different things. So when we 214 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:37.279 say we're attracted to one gender, are we trying to say or is what 215 00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:41.799 we mean by that, I'm attracted to a particular way that people express emotions 216 00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:45.720 a particular expression. Are we saying we're attracted to an amalgamation of so many 217 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:49.599 different parts of people that we've come to know by this construct of gender. 218 00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:53.079 And so to both of your points, if we start to piece that apart, 219 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:56.720 what are all of these things that have come to mean gender to us? 220 00:17:57.240 --> 00:18:00.960 Then? Yeah, to your point, you know, what room might 221 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:07.400 there be to shift our language away from I'm attracted to one gender and to 222 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:11.799 talk about it with more of a range. Yeah, I think what you 223 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:15.519 were saying, Evan was like that stuck out for me too, was just 224 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:21.000 like the variance within gender of if you are saying that you're primarily or only 225 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:25.319 to use this person's language attracted to one gender, like, does that look 226 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:30.920 really like uniform within each person? And I bet that there's a lot of 227 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:36.160 difference in this person's experience of attraction, like you mentioned of the different types 228 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:40.799 of attraction that could be physical or not, and so being curious within that 229 00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:44.079 of what are the qualities, what is the embodiment? What do all of 230 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:48.880 these things actually mean for you? And what have you been given access to 231 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:53.039 you? Like, I think a lot about who I was twenty years ago, 232 00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:59.400 and if you had asked me if I was attracted to one gender, 233 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:04.640 I would have said yes because my experience was so limited and I only I 234 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:11.279 was only given this one option and was brought up thinking that there was only 235 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:14.839 one option for myself to pick, Like, yeah, that would have been 236 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:18.799 my answer. But the more that I began to unpack, like what does 237 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:25.279 it actually mean to be attracted to people? And how does my sexuality want 238 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:30.160 to be expressed outside of the social norms and the religious changings that I was 239 00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:34.880 given back in the day. And it's okay for folks to answer those questions 240 00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:37.240 and be like, no, I'm good, you know, but I know 241 00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:41.960 for me, it wasn't until I started asking myself those questions and really questioning 242 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:47.400 the very like the very small amount of options that I had that I realized, 243 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:49.640 Oh, I want the whole I want the whole thing, Like I 244 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:53.720 want the whole buffet. I want to have access to that, and like, 245 00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:59.799 yeah, I just wonder Also for folks who are like I'm only attracted 246 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:03.200 to one gender? Is like, is that because you've been conditioned to be 247 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:07.319 attracted in that way? And if you examine within yourself, like, yes, 248 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:11.200 I was conditioned, and yes it's still true. That's great. I 249 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:15.440 just think that we should examine it and be curious about it. One more 250 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:18.200 thing about that, just that just sparked this idea in me, because I 251 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:25.200 wonder if this person who asked this question identifies a straight or identifies as a 252 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:30.400 lesbian or gay, because I do wonder if even once part of the menu 253 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:34.079 opens or maybe you know, we now have a buffet, if even then 254 00:20:34.119 --> 00:20:40.000 that conditioning not necessarily the conditioning to be attracted to the quote unquote opposite gender, 255 00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:42.880 Like maybe we've lost that, but maybe the conditioning to still be attracted 256 00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:47.400 to one gender is different from that, and that conditioning is still there even 257 00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:52.039 once we lose the compet like could we still be boxing ourselves in on the 258 00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:53.839 other side. And I think this is the type of conversation that I feel 259 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:57.400 like I've been almost canceled for on Instagram before by people who are like, 260 00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:00.559 no, just let me, let me not be attracted to all these other 261 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:04.720 genders. So it's complicated, and I think it brings up trauma stuff for 262 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:10.480 people. A bigger conversation than what we can have today, but super interesting. 263 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:18.119 M all right. So our next question says, I'm a non binary 264 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:23.279 butch lesbian. I love when my wife sucks strap I had, Yes, 265 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:29.000 I had shame about this until I stopped yucking my own yum. And life 266 00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:30.720 is better now. So this is less of a question and more of this 267 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:37.359 like a statement and I love it and sucks strap we celebrate this with you 268 00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:45.720 whoever, Yes, I'm doing jazz hands that. I think that like the 269 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:52.880 process of like not yucking your own yum is like something that can definitely come 270 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:56.319 up, and I think that that can be so liberating of being like, 271 00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:59.160 yeah, I like this, this thing is hot to me, and I 272 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:04.359 get to celebrate that. M yeah, because oftentimes the voice within us that 273 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:10.279 is yucking our own yum is yucking this our yum from a place of life. 274 00:22:10.279 --> 00:22:12.200 Well that's not what I should like, or that's not what I should 275 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:17.200 do, or that's not radical, that's not feminist or whatever. Vie. 276 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:22.279 So like being able to just like let yourself want what you want and enjoy 277 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:26.440 what you enjoy without pathologizing it, without shaming yourself. I love that. 278 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:30.519 I love that for you, right, And so much of yucking our own 279 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:33.079 yum, whether it relates to something in regards to sex or a relationship or 280 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:38.440 actually food or a job or whatever, is a strategy that we've developed, 281 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:44.079 probably very young, to keep ourselves on a path that kept us safe, 282 00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:47.440 right at least at a certain point. Right, If I can convince myself 283 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:49.160 this is yucky, then I won't veer off the path, and I won't 284 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:53.519 experience rejection or I won't be ostracized. But as we move into adulthood, 285 00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:59.400 and that safety is for a lot of us, not for all of us, 286 00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:02.079 something that we can count on more, we don't need our caregivers as 287 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:04.000 much, then I think, yeah, it becomes safe to wonder about that 288 00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:08.000 and we can let some of that go, which sounds like you did. 289 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:15.799 I love this. How do I know if I'm non binary or faking it? 290 00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:22.759 I'm laughing because I'm like, who are you? And why did you 291 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:29.480 get into my brain? I just feel for this person asking because I've been 292 00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:36.400 there many many times in my life in this day. Yeah, I don't 293 00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:37.880 have anything to add other than like, I see you, and I feel 294 00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:42.200 that I'll echo that too. I read this question, I was like, 295 00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:45.880 how do I answer this? I can't even answer this for myself. I 296 00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:49.880 think that society would like us to believe that we're faking it, So I 297 00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:55.200 think there's that's probably one of the reasons why we feel that way. Yeah, 298 00:23:55.240 --> 00:24:00.240 something that comes up for me when I think about my own non binary 299 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:04.400 imposter syndrome is like, it has been really difficult for me to try to 300 00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:11.319 answer the question of my gender with my mind and when I think about how 301 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:17.160 non binariness feels and my body, like when I think about the cues my 302 00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:22.519 body gives me and the way that my body softens when somebody uses a day 303 00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:26.200 pronoun for me, or the way that I look at myself in the mirror 304 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:30.920 and I'm like, damn, I look hot today. Like I'm really trying 305 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:38.519 to lean into the wisdom of my body around my gender expression and around my 306 00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:41.640 non binariness, because the moment that I get in my head about it, 307 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:45.119 I'm like, I'm not doing this enough and I don't look like this enough, 308 00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:48.079 and it becomes this like puzzle that I'm trying to put together as opposed 309 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:52.480 to a truth that I'm trying to live out and embody. And so I 310 00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:57.880 guess I would offer that reflection to this individual who's asking about this, how 311 00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:02.039 do you feel about your on binariness in your body? Like, what are 312 00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:07.039 the things that have happened in your life in your days, you know, 313 00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:12.920 around ender euphoria that like yeah, that that give those those moments of resonance, 314 00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:18.240 of softening of like enthusiastic yes. I keep coming back to that, 315 00:25:18.279 --> 00:25:21.200 but like an enthusiastic yes. Like how does your body tell you that you 316 00:25:21.240 --> 00:25:25.240 are non binary? When you said that? When you said that, maybe 317 00:25:25.240 --> 00:25:27.880 I don't have your exact wording right, but that you are having difficulty answering 318 00:25:27.880 --> 00:25:32.440 that question with your mind and like leaning into your body Like I've like found 319 00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:36.920 myself just like literally just like kind of like holding myself there and just being 320 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:41.480 like wow, like all of the ways that I might not have this really 321 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:48.720 cerebral cognitive approach to answering a question, to identifying an experience but having a 322 00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:53.240 lot of wisdom here and like how to validate that as so authentic and so 323 00:25:53.440 --> 00:26:00.599 like a bottom up experience of like what feels grounded. And maybe this is 324 00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:03.240 where the imposter syndrome for me comes from. It's like we have this very 325 00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:07.920 limited understanding of what a gender expression looks like. And I have even found 326 00:26:07.960 --> 00:26:15.480 myself being like I'm not non binary enough, and I'm applying the same standards 327 00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:21.799 of gender expression within the binary like I'm doing the exact same thing to myself 328 00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:25.079 that I, you know that you would find within you know, the gender 329 00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:29.480 binary. And so I like tuning into the body because I feel like that 330 00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:32.720 is where my gender lives. Like the moment I start thinking about it, 331 00:26:32.759 --> 00:26:36.119 I lose it. But if I can take a deep breath into my belly 332 00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:41.319 and like really feel in my own body like I am non binary, and 333 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:45.440 even just saying that, like offering that to yourself, I am non binary, 334 00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:49.680 and like seeing what happens in your body, like what resonates in your 335 00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:55.000 body, what sensations come up, and just notice and offering some care, 336 00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:59.680 some gentle touch to any part that felt, you know, activated tense or 337 00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:04.559 maybe got warm, and just remembering like I don't know, I just I 338 00:27:04.599 --> 00:27:11.000 really feel like gender is an embodied experience, and I think that that's there's 339 00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:14.359 nothing that anybody can do to take that away from us, like even if 340 00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:18.319 we even if it doesn't make sense with our minds, Like I just I 341 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:25.119 really want to feel into the wisdom of the body and also trust that wisdom. 342 00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:29.559 Well you're talking about reminds me of like this concept of mirroring and how 343 00:27:30.279 --> 00:27:34.400 firstus people most of their lives they're getting their genders mirrord back to them at 344 00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:37.240 least with some kind of accuracy, right, Like you are a woman, 345 00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:41.359 you are a man, But for trans folks, on binary folks, that's 346 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:44.880 so much harder to come by, maybe impossible to come by. And so 347 00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:47.880 I think I've gone what you're what you're talking about, at least how I'm 348 00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:52.319 interpreting it, is that we can offer ourselves some of that mirroring within ourselves, 349 00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:56.640 Like our bodies are mirroring it back to us. Our bodies are validating 350 00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:00.559 it. We don't necessarily need somebody else to because actually the way that our 351 00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:04.160 nervous systems regulate itself around our gender, it tells us everything that we need 352 00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:10.920 to know. And also just like a practical answer to this question that I 353 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:14.079 come back to you again and again when I have this question come up, 354 00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:18.680 is like no CIS person is going around thinking about their gender this much like 355 00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:25.640 it is only non binary people, trans people, gender nonconforming folks that are 356 00:28:25.640 --> 00:28:29.359 having this question of like I feel like I'm faking it, you know, 357 00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:33.680 So like when I think about my CIS friends and I'm like, do I 358 00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:36.359 have any CIS friends? But like when I think about my CIS friends, 359 00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:41.119 like they're not asking themselves these questions. They're not staying up at night thinking 360 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:44.000 about whether or not they're doing it right. And so I think that that 361 00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:47.160 is just another indication, like if you think that you are non binary, 362 00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:52.279 you probably are. That's rap. One of the tell tell signs is wondering 363 00:28:52.319 --> 00:29:00.720 if you actually are. Yeah, we're going to take a quick break to 364 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:04.640 talk about an amazing new show, Come as you Are. If you recognize 365 00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:11.039 that phrase, you're probably right. It's the amazing Emily Nagaski as your host. 366 00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:15.440 This is a book that actually was just my sex bible for the first 367 00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:18.559 many years that I was exploring my sexuality, getting to know who I am. 368 00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:22.599 It's a book I reference so many times when I'm teaching clients about things 369 00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:27.680 like desire, arousal, non concordance. Completely changed my life, and I 370 00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:33.160 imagine this podcast will too. Educator and best selling author, doctor Emily Nagaski 371 00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:37.279 answers questions about sex with the latest science on her new podcast, Come as 372 00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:41.279 You Are, Get a modern guide to sexual well being, backed by groundbreaking 373 00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:45.240 research about desire, anatomy, orgasm, and much more. In conversation with 374 00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:49.880 her producer Emily de Punk's cultural myths and flips the script on everything you thought 375 00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:53.400 you knew about sex and sexuality. Listen to Come as you are, wherever 376 00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:59.359 you get your podcasts and unlock your most pleasurable life in the bedroom and beyond. 377 00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:06.640 We're going to take a quick break to talk about an amazing show Bedside, 378 00:30:06.839 --> 00:30:08.160 and I know it's amazing because a couple of months ago I was a 379 00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:12.359 guest and the conversation is seriously not to miss. Questions like how do I 380 00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:17.680 have better orgasms? Build amazing relationships? Talking about what does good sex mean? 381 00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:21.400 What does that look like in practice? Each week on Bedside, sex 382 00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:26.720 educator Tatiana dells into intimate interviews and explorations around modern day sex, dating, 383 00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:32.440 love and wellness, with the Little Manifestation sprinkled in there too. Bedside chats 384 00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:37.440 with sexperts and wellness thought leaders about the many and unique approaches to sex and 385 00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:41.359 pleasure. All will keep you curious, informed, and of course having fun. 386 00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:45.440 You can expect topics like friend breakups, ghosting, tips from sex therapists, 387 00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:51.359 and explorations into the energetics around love, partnership, and sexuality. Tune 388 00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:56.039 into Bedside Wherever podcasts are found available on all streaming platforms. Bedside is your 389 00:30:56.039 --> 00:31:03.319 go to resource for all things good sex. All right. Our next question 390 00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:07.839 says, I'm attracted to a non binary person. What are some guidelines about 391 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:11.880 what is appropriate and not appropriate to ask? I don't want to offend or 392 00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:17.039 harm them when asking about sexual stuff. So this kind of like sounds like 393 00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:22.720 support how to support a non binary partner or interest. I would love to 394 00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:30.359 just normalize that the questions really shouldn't be different depending on somebody's gender, Like 395 00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:33.000 we should ask me asking everybody the same questions, because regardless of gender, 396 00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:37.759 it's helpful to know where people's pain points are, what they need, what 397 00:31:37.839 --> 00:31:41.240 they like, how they like to talk about themselves. So I think if 398 00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:44.880 you want to know, like when you start to veer into something that I 399 00:31:44.920 --> 00:31:48.279 think is harmful, it's when you start talking to a transfer nonbinary person about 400 00:31:48.279 --> 00:31:52.920 sex or their body in a way that you wouldn't talk to say this person 401 00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:56.160 about. And I think there's a lot we can learn from the Gender Experiences 402 00:31:56.279 --> 00:32:00.079 community and the language that they have, but I think it's applicable across the 403 00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:04.759 board, and it's questions that we should always be asking. We're thinking about 404 00:32:04.839 --> 00:32:08.480 I'm glad that you mentioned that, because I think we're all human, you 405 00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:14.559 know, and we all have dignity and we all deserve to be respected, 406 00:32:14.599 --> 00:32:20.920 and those questions don't necessarily have to be different just because we're having a different 407 00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:24.839 gendered experience than you are. Okay, I'll speak personally for me, and 408 00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:30.519 I don't really know exactly what this person wants to ask their partner, what 409 00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:35.359 kind of sexual questions they want to ask, but I will say that I 410 00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:38.519 love it when my partner will ask me, or even my friends will ask 411 00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:42.799 me, like, Hey, what pronouns do you like for me to use 412 00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:45.720 for you? Or like is I just used honey when I refer to you? 413 00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:52.200 Is that okay? I feel like those things offer me this feeling of 414 00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:55.640 like, oh, you care about me and you want to make sure that 415 00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:00.720 I am safe with you, and so I can apply that even with like 416 00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:06.440 sex and sexuality, like how do you want your body to be talked about? 417 00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:10.000 How would you like for me to refer to your chest or your breasts? 418 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:15.039 Like what are the words that would be good for you or your genitals? 419 00:33:15.079 --> 00:33:17.240 Like what is that? How is that for you? I don't know. 420 00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:22.559 I particularly love that questioning because I love it when people are curious about 421 00:33:22.599 --> 00:33:25.000 me, and when they're curious it can help to create safety for me. 422 00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:30.119 So maybe something to think about as well. Yeah, I really like what 423 00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:36.319 both of you said around just like being curious about a person's experience and preference 424 00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:39.200 is something that I would hope that we practice more. And I think that 425 00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:45.359 it just gets kind of like washed away and we do so much assuming and 426 00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:50.400 I think then it sounds like this person does have a lot of care and 427 00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:55.759 wants to approach this tenderly, and that we're human beings and everybody is going 428 00:33:55.759 --> 00:34:00.720 to have a different preference and there is not a monolith of a non binary 429 00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:04.039 experience where it's like, as a non binary person, we like this and 430 00:34:04.119 --> 00:34:08.000 this only everybody can shift in what their preferences are. Everybody can shift in 431 00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:13.079 what turns them on, what turns them off, like in their relationship with 432 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:16.519 their body, their relationship with their sexuality. So I think the understanding that 433 00:34:16.519 --> 00:34:22.679 that can happen and just to be having more curious conversations around sex, intimacy 434 00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:27.519 and care is a great practice to kind of like integrate into your life in 435 00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:31.400 general. Yeah, I mean, I think the other thing that I would 436 00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:35.920 add to this is like I hear in this question like this, this sphear 437 00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:38.960 of like not getting it right, you know, saying the wrong thing, 438 00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:45.000 and how that can keep us from having these questions because we're having these kind 439 00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:47.480 of conversations because we're so worried that we're going to say the wrong thing, 440 00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:52.119 we're going to harm people. And that is a real that's a real feeling. 441 00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:55.400 I don't want to bypass that, but I also just want to be 442 00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:01.119 in spaces where we give ourselves any each other grace to get it wrong sometimes, 443 00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:06.199 especially if the getting it wrong is not malicious, it's just like I 444 00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:10.639 didn't know, and yeah, I want for us to build a little resiliency 445 00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:15.079 around like, yeah, maybe maybe your partner, maybe you said something to 446 00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:20.719 your partner and they did not like it or it wasn't the right word or 447 00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:25.599 whatever, and like that can be another example of creating more intimacy and trust 448 00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:31.280 as you work through that experience. I just see so many people like so 449 00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:35.760 afraid to speak and say the wrong thing that they say nothing. And I 450 00:35:35.880 --> 00:35:39.039 really want us to just like have these conversations, have each other, give 451 00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:45.280 ourselves grace and leniency to an extent, and like, I'm obviously not talking 452 00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:50.159 about people who are being harmful and misgendering you and things like that on purpose, 453 00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:52.760 but like, what is it like for us to see each other in 454 00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:55.719 our humanity and to see each other as like we are trying our best in 455 00:35:55.800 --> 00:36:01.000 this system in this world that has conditioned us within this binary way of thinking, 456 00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:07.400 and that we can co create relationships where we can get it wrong sometimes 457 00:36:07.480 --> 00:36:08.639 and it's not the end of the world. It's just another way for us 458 00:36:08.679 --> 00:36:13.239 to be intimate with each other. I was just going to say something about 459 00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:16.840 like the permission giving to get something wrong and not to have to be perfect 460 00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:22.280 or have everything figured out, and to ask things as kind of more innocuous 461 00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:27.000 question, So to just be able to ask something because you're curious, not 462 00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:30.440 like, hey, I'm thinking and I was wondering, and I have this 463 00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:32.239 huge ask of you, but to ask it in the same way that you 464 00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:36.159 would ask somebody what they want to eat for dinner, so that it's more 465 00:36:36.440 --> 00:36:42.400 normalized. If I'm asking this about your gender identity, your sexual preferences, 466 00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:45.199 because I care about it in the same way that I care about this other 467 00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:50.239 thing. And the more that we can integrate these conversations into our thinking and 468 00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:52.800 the way that we speak to each other. Just's like, I think, 469 00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:55.880 there's just a lot more space there. I can get this wrong. I 470 00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:02.639 don't have to have presented myself as an all knowing type of of being or 471 00:37:02.679 --> 00:37:07.800 something like that. It's so easy to forget, at least for me, 472 00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:15.000 that I was that person six seven years ago who didn't know how to use 473 00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:19.599 They then pronounced for anybody who didn't understand them who like that, that I 474 00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:22.000 was that person. So it's not just like a random stranger we're talking about. 475 00:37:22.039 --> 00:37:24.719 We're even talking about younger versions of ourselves, most of us in the 476 00:37:24.760 --> 00:37:29.760 queer community. So what might also be going on there right when we're so 477 00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:35.360 hard on people who are where we once were. It's just something else to 478 00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:42.159 think about. These are a great question. I know you com phenomenal, 479 00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:50.880 Okay, how do you stay present during physical intimacy while experiencing gender based body 480 00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:59.840 dysmorphia? It is really really difficult, really painful experience. One thing that 481 00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:02.960 comes up when I think about maybe clients I've had who have brought this in 482 00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:08.719 is sometimes when when people ask this question, they're worried about fantasizing too much, 483 00:38:08.920 --> 00:38:15.719 and maybe conceptualizing fantasy as the opposite of presence, Like in order to 484 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:19.199 stay in order to stay present, I have to fantasize about myself in this 485 00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:22.039 body or with this genitalia or looking different in this way, and I'm not 486 00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:28.440 present when an actuality, I think fantasizing is and can be a way of 487 00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:32.159 being present, and it doesn't. It's not the opposite of presence. And 488 00:38:32.199 --> 00:38:35.840 so I don't know. I don't know this person's story, but one thing 489 00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:39.440 I could offer is if if what one thing you're worried about is fantasizing too 490 00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:45.280 much, what if you actually gave yourself permission to conceptualize fantasizing as a form 491 00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:49.440 of presence, so imagining, you know, if part of the way you 492 00:38:49.480 --> 00:38:53.800 cope with dysphoria is imagining or fantasizing in a way that relieves your dysphoria, 493 00:38:53.960 --> 00:38:58.519 Like, give yourself permission to conceptualize that as part of presence. That doesn't 494 00:38:58.519 --> 00:39:01.400 have to be the opposite of presents. That's just one thing that comes to 495 00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:07.519 mind. I love that. Yeah, when I was hearing this question, 496 00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:13.119 I was I was thinking about that it's okay, like to stop having sex 497 00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:16.679 if you if you're in that space, you know. I think so often 498 00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:22.840 we forget that we have that option to pause and take a moment when we 499 00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:25.320 need to if things start to get too intense or if we start to feel 500 00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:29.679 disconnected. So, yeah, I want to offer that to this person, 501 00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:32.639 like it's okay to take a break, you know, it's okay to pause 502 00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:37.639 and do something else and find another way to connect to your body or to 503 00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:44.239 just like pivot a different to a different way of experiencing sex. And then 504 00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:46.199 I guess the other thing that I would add to that is like, if 505 00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:50.480 you're not wanting to stop, because you're like, no, I want to, 506 00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:53.079 Like I want to keep going. This feels good. But also these 507 00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:58.320 thoughts are these feelings are just really loud. The breath is always a really 508 00:39:58.360 --> 00:40:02.760 beautiful way to come back into the body. So taking some deep inhales through 509 00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:08.280 the nose, into the belly and just like sighing it out. I've noticed 510 00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:15.920 that whenever I start to dissociate during sex or just become unpresent, breath is 511 00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:21.039 a really beautiful way to bring me back into my body, back into feeling 512 00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:28.079 my body. Because I know that, yeah, experiencing dysphoria, I know 513 00:40:28.119 --> 00:40:30.239 for me, I feel like I'm not in my body during those moments. 514 00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:35.679 So yeah, this person really wants to stay in their body and stay in 515 00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:38.559 the sexual experience, like try breathing, and breathing might be a way to 516 00:40:38.599 --> 00:40:45.960 anchor you back into feeling good. Yeah. I have a few different thoughts 517 00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:52.119 that come up around like not being present in your body during sex, And 518 00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:57.000 first want to say that that's such a such a common experience I've been. 519 00:40:57.239 --> 00:41:00.800 I've experienced that countless amount of times. Like being present in your body is 520 00:41:01.159 --> 00:41:06.159 sometimes a lifelong work, and so if you dip in and out of it, 521 00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:09.320 that okay, you're not doing something wrong. And ways to sin turned 522 00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:14.119 ground yourself are, like you said, stopping. Maybe that's when you integrate 523 00:41:14.119 --> 00:41:17.800 some sort of safe word. I like to like wiggle my toes and fingers, 524 00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:24.760 and also incorporate the different senses as well, like smell being really good, 525 00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:30.159 which is great because I feel like a company's breath like just a deep 526 00:41:30.199 --> 00:41:31.719 inhale through the nose. And then you can also be like, okay, 527 00:41:31.719 --> 00:41:38.920 I can smell this person's breath or sweat or candle or whatever's happening so that 528 00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:44.880 it disrupts kind of like that disconnect between the mind and body and allowing you 529 00:41:44.920 --> 00:41:50.440 to feel more more present. And so I think it's the having like the 530 00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:54.400 resources and practices to get back into your body, and also the permission giving 531 00:41:54.599 --> 00:42:01.000 to not always feel in your body and not nish yourself for it because it's 532 00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:07.320 challenging. And I think the more that you can identify this happens, particularly 533 00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:13.039 when I'm being touched here, particularly being when I'm in this sort of position, 534 00:42:13.320 --> 00:42:16.239 when my partner or partners say this sort of language, then you can 535 00:42:16.280 --> 00:42:19.480 start to track it a little bit more of like, yeah, I was 536 00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:23.239 fully with you until you said X, Y Z thing, and then you 537 00:42:23.239 --> 00:42:25.880 can kind of reflect it. And it doesn't always have to be like right 538 00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:30.639 in that moment, it might feel inaccessible. You might have other points of 539 00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:35.039 your body that are feeling really pleasurable and stimulated. But maybe that you're like, 540 00:42:35.639 --> 00:42:39.320 I'm noticing that this kind of happens every time that we get into this 541 00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:44.760 position or every time that we do this type of role play, So like, 542 00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:50.280 let's be curious about that the next time that we're engaging. Of all 543 00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:53.039 that, I feel like you covered it. I think letting go of any 544 00:42:53.079 --> 00:42:57.119 should's right, like even the should that you should be naked during sex. 545 00:42:57.639 --> 00:43:00.840 You don't have to be if if seeing a particular part of your body brings 546 00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:05.719 awareness to that part of your body and having on a piece of clothing, 547 00:43:05.719 --> 00:43:07.440 and maybe it's not just a piece of clothing, maybe it's one that's grounding, 548 00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:12.280 piece of clothing that feels really euphoric for you to wear. Or maybe 549 00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:15.559 it's not clothing. Maybe you're naked but you're wearing a bracelet that reminds you 550 00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:20.119 and grounds you. Or it's a it's a playlist that's euphoric, or it 551 00:43:20.119 --> 00:43:23.079 doesn't have to be an item. So could there be a grounding item, 552 00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:29.000 song, smell, taste, whatever it is that can kind of pull you 553 00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:36.400 back in? I love that. Okay, last question. Okay, so 554 00:43:36.519 --> 00:43:40.760 this person asks why is it so hard for queerness to be taken seriously as 555 00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:46.679 a theemsis woman, Like I could speak to that, please, Yeah, 556 00:43:46.840 --> 00:43:52.639 we're in there. I think that the compulsory heteronormativity really comes into play here. 557 00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:57.440 And like our cred of I'm not a super big fan of the word 558 00:43:57.440 --> 00:44:01.960 addiction, but like addiction to the buying ry and to knowing and conceptualizing of 559 00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:07.840 Like this makes sense because I can categorize it as this and this makes sense, 560 00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:10.800 and I don't want any wiggle room. And so I think for like 561 00:44:10.840 --> 00:44:15.000 them sis women, it's like, okay, well, but I need to 562 00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:21.199 understand you as being only attracted to men, only attracted to this type of 563 00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:25.840 man, only attracted to somebody who is also assis person. So I think 564 00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:30.599 that it's the discomfort with ambiguity, the discomfort with not knowing, the discomfort 565 00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:37.800 with with identity as a continuum rather than a binary. But it could feel 566 00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:43.599 really like isolating and alone, because I think that it's you know, then 567 00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:51.719 people want to or assume that you share their like homophobic or transphobic views because 568 00:44:51.760 --> 00:44:55.840 of your presentation or your identity. And so I think then it's then our 569 00:44:55.880 --> 00:45:00.239 responsibility to be like not like, I'm not with you on that, Like 570 00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:05.559 I can still exist in this identity. My identity as a queer person is 571 00:45:05.559 --> 00:45:12.440 still real and valid, and that like my journey is still it is still 572 00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:19.239 here. M yeah, man, homophobia as a killer drug for real, 573 00:45:19.960 --> 00:45:25.239 for real, it really is. Yeah yeah. And I think that like 574 00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:30.199 we want queerness to look a certain way in order to be taken seriously, 575 00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:34.480 like we want it to be clocked we wanted to be identifiable. I mean 576 00:45:34.599 --> 00:45:38.400 that again, the discomfort of being like wait you wait, how like wait, 577 00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:43.639 how do how do I integrate this into my knowledge to what can make 578 00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:49.159 sense for me when it actually has nothing to do with you? Yeah, 579 00:45:49.239 --> 00:45:55.119 that was I'm somebody that it's obviously queer, often mistaken for a fences women 580 00:45:55.480 --> 00:46:00.920 and an experience. I've often had our people use this phrase like what a 581 00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:02.960 waste, Like it's such a waste that you're queer, And when you really 582 00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:07.119 think about what they're saying, it's basically saying, right, I know, 583 00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:09.440 deep breaths, but you're such a waste to men? Right, what are 584 00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:15.039 you useful for? If? And so I think about one of the reasons 585 00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:20.039 why, you know, for FEMSS women, why it can be so difficult, 586 00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:25.519 is this like ego of this is man that like their madness there cis 587 00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:30.119 madness should be enough of an entry point for them to be able to have 588 00:46:30.199 --> 00:46:32.960 you and the right, the right that they feel to you and your queerness 589 00:46:34.599 --> 00:46:38.159 is a moment where they have to reconcile that they don't have that power over 590 00:46:38.239 --> 00:46:42.000 you, right, And of course they don't have that power over a lot 591 00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:45.239 of straight women too. But that's a moment where they have to reconcile and 592 00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:49.199 it's like they can't compute. And so the way that they relieve that dissonance 593 00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:52.079 is through phrases like it's such a waste, or you can't really be queer, 594 00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:55.000 or don't you miss you know, being with me? Whatever. We've 595 00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:00.119 all all had different versions of that. But yeah, I think it's I 596 00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:04.599 think it's you know, I think it's also about ego and narcissism and misogyny. 597 00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:07.639 It's a hard question to end on because it's I know, dark, 598 00:47:07.960 --> 00:47:16.079 Like, yeah, it's heavy, Yeah, it's heavy. Yeah, I 599 00:47:16.159 --> 00:47:22.639 actually have a question that I would love to like pose to the room. 600 00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:29.920 Yeah, perfect, to get the darkness out of out of our bodies, 601 00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:37.519 like shaking that out. Is what has given you all euphoria recently? And 602 00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:43.039 are you speaking specifically about gender euphoria? Yeah, let's do gender euphoria. 603 00:47:43.480 --> 00:47:46.960 Yeah, I have one. I have a memory. My partner Malum, 604 00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:51.599 was talking about I think I was getting dressed to go out or something, 605 00:47:51.719 --> 00:47:54.840 and she made a comment along the lines of like, whatever you wear whatever 606 00:47:54.920 --> 00:47:59.920 kind of like traditional gender expression you put on, it looks like it fits, 607 00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:05.440 which was just a really tangible way of saying something that I've always dreamed 608 00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:09.000 about feeling about myself, which is to be able to sort of inhabit these 609 00:48:09.039 --> 00:48:13.960 different looks and for it and for it to just as read as natural and 610 00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:17.920 hearing that was really euphoric for me. That's a beautiful It's really sweet that 611 00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:27.760 I was doing some sort of like movement the other day. I was like 612 00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:31.840 trying to like lift some weights instead of having back problems and trying to strengthen 613 00:48:31.880 --> 00:48:37.159 my core. And I'm like, I think continually struggling through just like feelings 614 00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:39.440 about my body and trying to distance myself from my body, so trying to 615 00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:45.199 be present and my body as it shifted over time has been hard. But 616 00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:49.760 I think afterward, I was like, I was just like stretching and listening 617 00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:55.320 to really good music, and I just like really felt like a really strong 618 00:48:55.400 --> 00:48:59.639 woman. And I think that that felt good. Like I was like I 619 00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:06.239 felt like tension and then I felt like breathlessness, and I felt like accomplished, 620 00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:10.719 and I felt like good that I didn't do everything perfectly and I just 621 00:49:10.760 --> 00:49:19.880 felt yeah, well I felt good, really beautiful. M. I love 622 00:49:19.960 --> 00:49:23.400 that. Thank you for sharing y'all. M. Do you have an answer. 623 00:49:23.800 --> 00:49:30.079 Yeah, we want to hear your answer. Oh, yes, I 624 00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:37.679 do. This is something that I experience every seven days because I shaved my 625 00:49:37.719 --> 00:49:40.639 head this year, the second time I've shaved my head, and it looks 626 00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:45.320 amazing. Thank you, thank you, I am I'll never go back. 627 00:49:46.639 --> 00:49:51.039 And actually, this is this is bringing up something from a previous question that 628 00:49:51.079 --> 00:49:53.119 I also want to touch on, Like you know this idea that if you 629 00:49:53.159 --> 00:49:58.440 don't feel non binary enough, like do something that makes you look more non 630 00:49:58.519 --> 00:50:01.599 binary. Yeah, and for me, a lot of my non binary imposter 631 00:50:01.719 --> 00:50:06.719 syndrome came from and I didn't realize this until I shave my head, like, 632 00:50:06.800 --> 00:50:10.079 oh I do present very very film, especially when I mean my hair 633 00:50:10.239 --> 00:50:14.440 was past my shoulders and it was big, and it was it was curly, 634 00:50:14.559 --> 00:50:20.039 and yeah, I shave my head every seven days because like I don't 635 00:50:20.079 --> 00:50:22.840 want it to get too long. And every single time, like every time 636 00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:27.239 I turn on the buzzers and like I can feel that vibration on my head 637 00:50:27.800 --> 00:50:32.320 and I can see myself transforming back into like this bald headed batty. I'm 638 00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:37.559 just like, yeah, that's it. That is my gender. So I 639 00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:42.480 feel really lucky that I get to have something very sensual that I can practice, 640 00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:46.320 like an actual sensual ritual that gets me back into gender euphoria because every 641 00:50:46.320 --> 00:50:50.360 time I see myself it's like the first time. I'm still like taken it 642 00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:53.320 back, Like, oh my god, that's me. Do you have a 643 00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:59.639 particular day of the week that's your this ritual comes with Yeah. I try 644 00:50:59.679 --> 00:51:02.039 to do it on the weekends when I'm like, you know, after I've 645 00:51:02.039 --> 00:51:06.079 done all of my errands grocery shopping, and I just I make it an 646 00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:09.440 event, like I turn on some music and I make sure that the shower 647 00:51:09.519 --> 00:51:14.800 is just right. Sometimes I like alsna afterward and then like take a nice 648 00:51:14.800 --> 00:51:20.000 hot bath. So it just it's so nourishing for my body. And also 649 00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:23.360 there's so much tied especially for black women and black fems, there's so much 650 00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:31.639 tied to our hair and being able to radically change this relationship with my hair 651 00:51:31.719 --> 00:51:37.199 as a black person, it's just like that's that added layer of gender euphoria 652 00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:40.559 for me, and like radical blackness and womanism, it's just like it's all 653 00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:45.920 wrapped up in there. So yeah, highly recommend shave your head once in 654 00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:51.480 your life. It'll change your life. You heard it, Yes, thank 655 00:51:51.519 --> 00:51:55.039 you for that question. Yeah, yeah, for your answers, it was 656 00:51:55.079 --> 00:52:01.000 really lovely to hear you all and your experiences. Do you have anything that 657 00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:04.119 I mean, we read your bio, but do you have anything that you 658 00:52:04.159 --> 00:52:07.000 want to plug or any projects you're excited about that you want to share. 659 00:52:07.639 --> 00:52:15.679 Yeah, thank you for asking. I always want to plug my podcast Sensual 660 00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:22.719 Self. It's a really lovely breath of fresh air for those of us who 661 00:52:22.760 --> 00:52:25.519 want to slow down and tune into our bodies. And I really try to 662 00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:31.480 like infuse the show so that it invites you to slow down and to pause 663 00:52:31.519 --> 00:52:36.360 a little bit. So I highly recommend that for folks who are like, 664 00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:39.519 Okay, we talked a lot about body disconnection today and like what are some 665 00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:45.239 practices and some tools that can get us back into union with ourselves. So 666 00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:49.559 Sensual Self is a really great resource that I love to plug. And we've 667 00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:53.119 had some excellent folks like talking about pleasure. We've had Adrian Marie Brown, 668 00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:59.599 We've had Data Knuckles who's talked about decolonizing gender. It's one of my favorite 669 00:52:59.599 --> 00:53:05.320 episode. Um I interviewed my mom back in the day about her sex life, 670 00:53:05.360 --> 00:53:08.119 so like, there's there's some wonderful gems in there. Um, so 671 00:53:08.199 --> 00:53:10.920 I want to plug that, and also I'd love to plug my book as 672 00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:15.199 well, since you will self it's same same title as my podcast. Um 673 00:53:15.320 --> 00:53:20.920 it's just a beautiful journal that folks can work through to connect them back into 674 00:53:20.960 --> 00:53:25.000 their bodies with prompts and practices that guide you and hold you and nourish you 675 00:53:25.119 --> 00:53:30.400 and really allows you to experience, like, what does it look like for 676 00:53:30.440 --> 00:53:34.639 me to be a sensual being on my own terms? And Yeah, you 677 00:53:34.639 --> 00:53:37.960 can find sensual self wherever you listen to podcast, and you can also find 678 00:53:37.000 --> 00:53:43.519 it wherever you get books. Amazing. I will be running to the podcast. 679 00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:46.519 Yeah, I can't wait buying the book. Quick subscribe. Yeah, 680 00:53:47.679 --> 00:53:51.400 I'll send you. I have copies. I'll send you both copies in my 681 00:53:51.400 --> 00:53:59.400 book. Incredible. I'm so excited. Thank you so much, thank you, 682 00:53:59.679 --> 00:54:05.159 so wonderful conversation. Really appreciate you. Yeah, thank you all. 683 00:54:05.199 --> 00:54:08.840 It was really great to meet all of you. Safe Word is hosted by 684 00:54:08.920 --> 00:54:14.159 Casey Tanner and Kamia Lewis and is produced by Coordinator at Townsend. Our theme 685 00:54:14.199 --> 00:54:17.000 song is written and performed by Emma Jane and Toria Rainey. To support the 686 00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:21.079 show, please follow us on Spotify and take a moment right now to give 687 00:54:21.159 --> 00:54:24.159 us five stars. We also love rave reviews on Apple Podcasts or wherever you 688 00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:30.119 listen to podcasts. Every other week they put out a question box on Instagram, 689 00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:32.360 giving you the opportunity to ask for advice on the topic at hand. 690 00:54:32.800 --> 00:54:37.119 To submit long form questions in writing or in your own voice, go to 691 00:54:37.159 --> 00:54:40.800 the safe Word Pod or Queer Sex Therapy Instagram page and click on our link 692 00:54:40.880 --> 00:54:45.079 tree in the bio to write out those long form questions. If anything today 693 00:54:45.119 --> 00:54:50.719 made you curious about seeking support our practice, the Expansive Group has a great 694 00:54:50.760 --> 00:54:54.199 team of therapists and mentors here to discuss challenges you might be facing. Go 695 00:54:54.280 --> 00:54:59.039 to the Expansivegroup dot com, submit a contact form and we'll get you collected 696 00:54:59.400 --> 00:55:02.119 for behind the scenes look at safe ward and podcasts updates. Find us on 697 00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:06.760 Instagram at safe word Pod. We'll be back in two weeks with the new 698 00:55:06.840 --> 00:55:07.199 episode of Safe Word