Ready June twenty five, twenty twenty four, allegedly according to that thing we
call a calendar, and it is a tearesday Tuesday. Well, it's just
after nine pm Eastern in that place we used to call America, and I'm
going live a little late and even later than that, because it's actually about
five after nine. But anyway, no matter, it's gonna be worth it.
I assure you, who do I have with me tonight, Well,
Larry Hancock has already joined me. If you don't know who Larry Hancock is,
welcome to the world of literature, Welcome to the O'Kelly effect, Welcome
to the jfk assassination. Although that's not going to be tonight's topic, you
should know who Larry Hancock is. If you don't, you have a treat
for yourself later. Go to Larry dash Handcock dot com check out his work
his blog. Multiple books that take up a lot of space on my shelf,
not because I need stuff to take up space, but because every one
of them is valuable. And what we're gonna talk about tonight is probably one
of the least written about topics in Larry's arsenal. And we're gonna have Stu
Wexler join us in a few minutes to discuss some stuff that I know I
have not covered on this show before. Regarding the rfk assassination nineteen sixty eight,
what happened at the Ambassador Hotel, Special Unit Senator that was the official
investigation. I think, Hey, they almost dragged that into the HSCA,
I think. And Sir Hans, Sir Hans still sits in prison, even
though he was paroled in the Governor of California said, nope, that's happened.
You know. Funny thing think about it. How many years has it
now been? Well more than fifty five, right, and more than fifty
five years later, Sarah and Zaran's still in prison. Anyway, a lot
we could say there, but that again is not gonna be exactly tonight's topic,
although the rfk assassination will be discussed. Larry, how are you this
evening? Oh, I'm good, I'm ready ready to chat. We haven't
talked about this for a long time, right, you like the little you
like the little broken teasers there where. It's like, we could talk about
this and you know what, I'm gonna just dispel a few things if you're
waiting for uh, mind control, if you're waiting for mk Ultra discussion.
If you're it's it's not gonna happen. You know what we're gonna discuss though,
a couple of interesting points, real interesting points, as a matter of
fact, the biggest points that they don't seem to push forward unless you're well
certain authors. And one of them put out a terrible book, another one
put out a book that was pretty good. And every once in a while
you get a documentary on this that always mentions the stuff we're going to talk
about tonight. So I'll leave it at that for now. But Larry,
before we even get there, I mean, how about let's just say there's
somebody out there who's not certain what I'm talking about. Rfk Oh, Yeah,
I do remember he was killed in nineteen sixty eight. Wasn't he running
for president? He already mentioned the ambassador Hotel. Oh, the LAPD's involved.
Well, they're a you know, an organization beyond approach at all times.
Right, I'm sorry, couldn't take my tongue out of my cheek for
that one. But Larry, help us out. Let's just say you're somebody
who was casually aware that. Indeed, there was some dispute over what happened
to Robert Francis Kennedy. Francis was his middle name. I believe it wasn't
Fitzgerald, like John F. Kennedy say middle in this not the same name.
His son is out there attempting to run for president. Now he had
many kids, but again not the point of tonight's discussion. How would you
take somebody a little further than just the bare bones the used to be Encyclopedia
Britannica version of this. How would you just begin to bring people into it
and then we're going to take a short break and grab Stu Wexler to come
back live. But how would you do that? Larry? I think the
place to start is that anybody it's even looked at this briefly or seen it
discussed and within the JFK community seems to tend to view it as just an
extension of the President Kenny's assassination. President Kennedy was assassinated, his brother was
assassinated. It's almost like it's a side note. It's often late. It's
kind of like, well, they must be out their brothers. RK was
going to investigate his brother's death. They have to be linked, and then
they just kind of pass on over it. And the truth is that the
assassination of Robert Kennedy was quite different, and I think that's something we need
to talk about. It's different in the way that it was investigated, it's
different in the way that it was carried out, entirely different than what we
see in Dallas in many respects, which kind of gives you a clue that
it shouldn't just be brushed over. It has to be examined on its own.
You can't take it as an element of continuity, which means you have
to dig into it. And I think most people have kind of treated that
as too much work because there is, you know, a minuscule amount written
on this one, on the RFK assassination compared to JFK. You just can't
You can't just go online and find one hundred Facebook videos. You can't find
five hundred books and kind of take it all in. Well, can ahead
some digging if you want the facts on this one. Yeah, let me
put a pin in this with you just for a second, because there's a
couple of things continuity wise we must recognize. And one of the key elements
is you don't have the twenty four hour news cycle emerging from Bobby Kennedy's murder,
not the way you did when JFK was murdered. Okay, you have
to concede that point. We don't have all the major networks now turning over
their coverage for days on end to Bobby Kennedy, do we Some people would
say, well, that's because he wasn't the president. Okay. On the
other hand, we also have a circumstance here where it gets molded into this
other thing where it's the tragedy of the Kennedy family. It's the bad luck
brothers. You know. Look, after all, right, John F.
Kennedy's older brother was killed World War Two. He was really the heir apparent,
the guy that they were going to put the future of the family into
his hands, et cetera, et cetera. Joe Kennedy junior, you have
that element, you have Okay? Then JFK is killed, Okay, Then
Bobby Kennedy's killed. And oh, by the way, Ted Kennedy and Chap
Equittick and what in the world is happening? Here is the world out to
get the Kennedy's are they you know, how many books, how many films
the Kennedy Curse. Now, Hollywood went into the Bobby Kennedy subject a bit.
There's been quite a few films, not nearly as many documentaries. That's
impossible. They couldn't possibly have made as many documentaries about this as they did
about his brother's murder. But Hollywood went after it. I mean, we
had the movie Bobby, we had there was another thing about the hotel,
right, the staff there was you know, there's been a few other mentions
of it, and other films have referenced it and folded it into their narrative
for nineteen sixty eight. So Hollywood does grab hold of it. It doesn't
have the same level of interest, It doesn't have the same level of documentary.
It doesn't have the same level of archival footage preserved by all the networks
either, because again we don't have four or five straight days of coverage.
Also, we have a live alleged assassin who actually went to court and was
convicted. These are all notable differences and also part of the continuity that has
gone on with time where people have sort of rolled it into the mixed narrative.
But I think we need to extract it from that and recognize it for
what it is. It is a very different circumstance, even though they were
brothers, even though he is the former attorney general, and even though he's
running for the political office that his brother lost, well, you know by
bullet by gunplay. Are all these points or you think I'm off base here,
we haven't had. The media coverage was different unless you wear in LA.
I mean, there was a huge amount of onspot media coverage in LA.
And actually, I think one of the things that becomes clear is the
fact that there was a conspiracy, there were more people involved, was probably
quite clear if you were in Los Angeles, not if you were in the
rest of the country. So it wasn't a national media story as with his
brother, It was local media story. One of the reasons is the local
media story is makes it quite different than Dallas is you had a ton of
witnesses come forth putting Sir hand together with other people before the assassination. That
added a whole new element to it and actually forced a serious LAPD investigation,
which you don't find when you have a prosecutor a DA with the guy in
custody. You know, It's kind of like whenever we see a district attorney
with someone like sir Hand and custody wanting to go to trial and make a
quick, clear victory to help the reputation, it's usually over, it's done,
and we're through. The interesting thing is that in the rfk assass nation
there were so many witnesses and so many leads that Special Unit Senator continued,
was forced to continuous work almost independent of the DA. It's like you had
two things going on. A prosecution that was being guilt against just sir Hand,
and a police investigation of all these other leads that looked like conspiracy.
Well there you go on the scene. Totally different. Even the attitude of
law enforcement, they had a different idea. In fact, people uttering out
loud, this will not be like Dallas and speaking of this will not be
like it was just a moment ago. Stu Wexler has joined us, So
pleasure to be with you guys. Sorry a bit laid here, No problem
at all, Stu. Look so far all we've done is basically lay out,
Look, this is not the jfk assassination. You know, what would
you tell people that maybe have a passing interest who have seen this because it
doesn't have the same amount of archival footage Let's say the JFK assassination does.
It doesn't have the same amount of uh, you know, documentary films made.
Hollywood has treated it a few times, but it's definitely been treated differently.
But it's certainly a different circumstance, even though it's the same family and
often folded into the Kennedy curse. What would you bridge this into, Stu,
if you don't mind before we get into some details, well I would.
I would say, if I were to frame this and I try telling
this to folks, on the surface, you would think that the RFK assassination
is the most open and shut of all three major political assassinations, or if
you want to go four with with Malcolm X in the nineteen sixties, and
I would argue to you that of the of the three or four major ones,
it is the most clear cut example of one where the official version is
not true. Keep in mind, Larry and I both think that the others
are not true either. But if you were to say to me, if
God were to say to me, only one of them, ste is not
what the official version said it was, And you have to say which one
it is. That one for me would be RFK, even though I'm convinced
on the others. So that should give you an idea. The other thing
is that the way I've said it to folks, as bad as the investment
mitigations are sloppy, deliberate, whatever you want to call it, the investigations
are of some of these other major political crimes. The LAPD makes the Dallas
police in nineteen sixty three look like Scotland yard, right, And so then
the third thing, it's probably the one that we could do the most about.
And so that's what I would say to people is the most interesting observations
I would make to people who dive into the political assassinations of the nineteen sixties.
And sadly, here's the other thing. I mean, Look, you
have the release of people in the Malcolm X murder, you have the parole,
but then the denial of parole with Sir Hans Sirhan, you have the
you know, the second official explanation from the government. Oh Lee, Harvey
Oswald's still involved, but very likely there was a conspiracy. And you could
can this even better by saying, look, we can go from Medgar Evers
all the way to the various assassinations of black panthers and talk about that entire
era of assassination, and still you're almost having to agree with what Vincent Bugliosi
said years ago. I know that scares some people when I say that,
but he said that it was you know, like I forget how he put
it exactly, but it was like, this is so ridiculous. It makes
you know, other conspiracies look like a single marijuana joint arrest or something like
that. He said, again, I don't put any stock in Bugliosi or
his character, especially after digging into him deeply. But we'll leave all that
alone today. Let's get into the greater context here and why this is so
so different. Could we actually do something about it? We still have an
alleged assassin alive, which is kind of shocking, and in custody, which
is also shocking everybody else. James Earl Ray right, Like I said,
the two guys got let loose from the Malcolm X thing. After that documentary,
you got Oswald. You know he died on Sunday, you know,
after the Friday event. This is a very different situation. So where should
we begin with two major differences that I want to cover tonight, Larry.
I want you to sort of frame this because I have two areas of interest
that I discussed with you, and we looked at some material that I don't
think you guys have made available completely to the public, but I appreciate having
a look at that stuff. It's fascinating. And where should we begin.
One of the things that people fixate on in any of the documentaries that do
exist in all the conspiracy, whether it's lore, or it is a good
investigation, or it is fairly decent speculation. Even we could start with one
of the key figures, or we could go into exactly what the nature of
the investigation was. It's very different from the other investigations. I mean,
Stu laid it out. The way that he did sounds a little different than
the way you might lay it out, Larry. But where should we begin
with these two major areas that we're going to cover tonight. Well, I
think you get a handle on it, Chuck. One of there are two
big things that happened, and happened almost separately. One was the prosecution of
Sir hann Okay and the evidence that was entered into court and accepted by Sir
Han's defense lawyer with no challenge if someone devoted the time to look at that
evidence. And it's hard to do because unlike the JFK, you know,
this does not reside at the National Archives. This is a criminal case in
California. It gets locked up within the system. Unless you had access to
were Sir Han's lawyer or his researcher. He couldn't even get to it for
decades, so the actual evidence itself remained locked up. The evidence by itself
clearly shows that Sir Hand did not kill even though he shot at Robert Kennedy,
did not kill him, and from that standpoint, proves conspiracy. But
pursuing that could take us many many shows. So what I would refer to
anyone that's interested in it That evidence has all been reviewed, collected, and
is available in a fantastic study of the crime scene by John Hunt. It's
available, The book is available, it's title buried in plain sight, And
if somebody really wants to understand the crime scene and the evidence, that's the
place to go. I would suggest what we talk about this evening is the
other side of the coin, not the prosecution of Sirhan how that was poorly
done, how its defense was poorly done, and the evidence itself, but
rather talk about the police investigation, because the police investigation was also locked up
separately in the SUSS files, the Especial Unit Senator files. We have access
to all that now, but it wasn't available, and in fact, things
got so bad that actually police started destroying things. But I would think the
best way we could parse it out is to leave the crime scene to itself,
because that is documented in John Hunt's work, and we could focus on
the act itself, the witnesses, the reports, what the FBI didn't did
do, what the LAPD didn't and didn't do with the witnesses it had,
and why Essentially, in the end, the LAPD had a case for conspiracy,
but because they couldn't find the people involved, they essentially, for political
purposes, wrote it off and closed it down. I think that would be
I think that would be something better for us to discuss because Stu and I
have both looked into that. Both looked into where the leads took the police.
Yes, and they took them to very specific people, and the police
actually up to a point in time when they couldn't solve it documented it quite
well and we can see that now. And the horrible thing about it is
you can see where it was going and how it was going, and then
you can see it crash and burn right now. My understanding is that they
did consider this for the HSCA. I know I've mentioned that flippantly at the
beginning of the show, but there was a consideration on one point that they
were going to look into the RK assassination as well. Wasn't that the case,
Larry? Yeah, it was hope that there was enough money in time
to address all of them, but there wasn't. But there was not.
And obviously the JFK assassination took presidents and when they got involved in that and
saw what was really involved, you know, the body of work that was
involved, it was clear there was never going to be time, right,
But it was part of the consideration. It just didn't get done. But
here we go. That might be the theme here. So should I go
to Stu next on this and have him take it from there? Where where
should we begin with the most curious of figures, or with the nature of
the investigation. Where where should we go? What do you think, Larry?
Should we go to Stu on that. Yeah, let me just what
I'd hand off to Stu is Stu and I've been through this before. Is
the fact kind of tracing through what the police had to deal with and how
they responded to all of these witnesses who came forth over time saying that they
had seen Sir an different people, different people the night of the assassination.
They had seen Sir Hann with the girl in a polka dot dress in multiple
locations. And we're not just talking about one or two people. We're talking
about dozens of people that file police reports saying that they had seen this young
woman and the men together with Sir Hanna at various places through the Ambassador Hotel.
They had to deal with a police officer's report who talked to witnesses who
had seen these same people fleeing the scene. And it got worse when they
discovered that there was a whole list of sightings of these same people, same
descriptions with Sir Hann over some three to four weeks before the assassination, while
Robert Kennedy was in LA campaigning. And you know, so we have witnesses,
we have people that have seen these people fleeing the hotel, and maybe
that Stuke could kind of start going through this, dude, don't forget to
mention Robbie's restaurant, but kind of set the scene for what the police were
faced with dealing with. Another thing that's mentioned to me on Skype is that,
of course, another major difference is that the suspect was captured with a
weapon in his hand, and at the time of the shooting. Now that
weapon in his hand I'm certain was utilized to strike others because other people were
struck as well, you know, with gunfire, and indeed that is a
difference in this case as well. So go ahead, Stu. Sorry,
I just wanted to acknowledge that. Well, I would have probably done the
switcheroo and given that introduction and handed it over to Glarry because he does such
an amazing job in his essay on Mary Ferrell dot Com of really breaking it
down, and I would emphasize two of the things that Larry mentioned in detail,
and then maybe what we can do is branch off, especially on where
one of these people takes us. But in terms of the police investigation,
it's important to note, like not every police officer investigator in this thing was
out to deep six the investigation. There were people who were honestly recording and
trying to run down leads. The problem is that there were several other people,
including we want to go physical evidence, the main criminalist, a guy
named Dwayne Wolfer, who were clearly, for whatever reasons, you know,
you could convince me very easily, they were worried about nineteen sixty eight and
what had the country had seen in the past, you know, not even
just nineteen sixty eight, all the way back to sixty six, the level
of violence and rioting, et cetera, and what it would mean if one
more shooting, one more assassination. And it's very obvious that there's another person
involved at least and they can't find who it is what that might have meant
for La and for the rest of the country. But they're clearly covering things
up. And one of the key ones, which maybe again we'll get to,
is then this investigation of the girl with a Polkadon address. There was
a very clear attempt with certain witnesses to use things like lie detector tests,
which are somewhat dubious to begin with, but if somebody's using it as a
tool to badger, implant ideas inside the heads of and manipulate witnesses. That's
a big, big no no, and that happened in this case. And
what we have, as Larry said, is if you follow even physically through
the Ambassador Hotel where RFK is going to be, and more importantly, where
Sirhan is cited, and in many respects where he had to be physically in
order to get to where he shoots Robert Kennedy. Every place he goes,
he is seen in the company of people who fit a certain description, including
a girl well you know, it's always weird to talk this way, but
very commonly acknowledged for being top heavy, so to speak, in a polka
doatta dress. Again, in multiple separate locations following the trail of where Sirhan
would go, over and over again, he's seen in the company of people
who somebody who vaguely is similar in description to him, right but not him,
and another person who taller, thinner, all young. She's seen in
these company of these people all the way up to and including where the shooting
takes place, and even right after the shooting takes place, these people flee
and multiple independent witnesses including fairly shortly after the crime is actually done, like
this isn't like two weeks later, this is the day of this is within
minutes hours, Get a hold of security and police and law enforcement and relay
the story of suspicious activity between Sirhan and these sort of three people. Sometimes
it's two of them, sometimes it's all three of them. And these people
are acting incredibly strangely, especially afterwards when they seem to be reacting with glee
fleeing the scene and Sirhan, we could get into a long story of it,
it might become worthwhile. Has never sort of really been willing or depending
on who you believe, been able to identify them. But there is a
suggestion that they were helping him. There is a suggestion even that the girl
in question may have been, depending again on who you're talking to, either
potentially giving him some sort of I don't know the where would be liquid courage,
because it might have been in pill form to get him to a point
where he would do the shooting at that close arrange. The people who arrested
him, he was signingly strong, but the people who subdued him, I
should say, were world class Olympic type athletes, and they still had a
very tough time subduing him. They thought he might have been in some sort
of high or drug in some way, shape or form because of that.
And then, as Larry says, and Larry did an amazing job again in
his series of essays, you see the same exact people, at least in
terms of physical description, in Sirhan's company, at shooting ranges, at other
RFK events with Sirhan, and this gets buried, and I alluded to this
before, this gets buried rather quickly by certain people within the department to the
point where they identify a woman who really does not fit the description of the
Pokadonta dress girl as the Pokaanonta dress girl. And again, Larry and I
could get into some possibilities. We may even have some idea as to who
this person is, and I personally I think Larry does too. We can
get into the Sirhan angle of this. I would approach his parole and release
very differently than a lot of other people. We could get to that.
I think there's hope that Sirhan could potentially identify. Efforts have been made who
this person is, and there is a candidate for who this person might be
at least one, but one I think Larry and I both agree are is
very tantalizing who we could get into as well, who's still alive. So
and I happen to think, and I don't know if Larry fill is on
poart with me on this particular one, I happen to think, we have
a pretty good idea for who one of the people the males is who's hanging
around with him, So we could get to this. We have plenty of
time. That's how I'd set it up. Several different indications of a Polka
Dota dress girl, taller, thinner man, a person who's vaguely the same
description as Ciron over and over again in the Ambassador, where you'd expect them
to be. If Sirhan is trying to get to a point where he could
kill RFK, and he obviously is part of a more than one shooter who
eventually does acting suspiciously immediately after the crime, and then you trace it back
and you could actually put them in Siron's company at very suspicious places in the
week before the crime. And so I would leave it there, And some
people do ask before we go over to Larry to you know, kind of
corral this a little bit. Some people do ask, you know, look,
he's in the presence of a woman. I mean, is it possible
that that woman could be his sister. He's in the presence of, you
know, some men here. Is it possible that these are his brothers or
something like that? Now, there is an interesting connection between the weapon and
one of Sirhan's brothers, but we're not going to cover that tonight. Well,
uh, if I could say, I think that, I mean,
if if you if you're uncomfortable talking about names, I think that's a key
to this whole case. Oh no, I think I'm not uncomfortable at all.
I just want to go, oh, yes, I mean his his
one of his brothers in violation of uh like you know, he was,
he was essentially parole in essence. One of his brothers purchased a gun in
violation of the law and gave it to Sirhan, and we just people just
tend to ignore that that brother when I keep on saying, somebody who kind
of sort of looks like Sirhan. Both figures I think could potentially be brothers
of the woman, does not, in my opinion, fit the description of
any of the women that Sirhan was attempting to engage with and expressed an interest
with. Nor is it clear to me that it's any of the brother's girlfriends
right that we know of, which is key. But I would add this
and perhaps we could touch upon it. I am deeply skeptical of the Manchurian
candidate scenario that many people almost take for as a given in this case.
But if you are skeptical of that particular idea, and we could go into
why if you want to, at some point you have to ask yourself why,
Sirhan, who very very clearly, I have to I have to leave
the area on police. I actually left my house hold on because there was
music going on. Yeah, I'm just I had to leave my house to
do a random Sorry, guys, give me one second, no problem,
mute yourself up and will turn over to Larry. Yeah, Chuck, I
think this is a good a couple of interesting things to go back to talk
about the police investigations. As still mentioned, one of the fascinating things,
and you brought it up, is the resemblance between some of these young men
and Sarahen's brothers. When the police were investigating these incidents that were reported both
at the Ambassador Hotel that night and over the preceding weeks. They talked to
several people who actually identified one of the brothers as the person they had seen
with this young woman. Okay, in one instance, in what very likely
appears to have been a potential attack on RFK at a luncheon at Robbie's Restaurant.
Long story there. But the interesting thing from a criminal investigation standpoint is,
even though they picked them out of mugshots, the way you would normally
resolve this obviously as you do a lineup, right, Okay, we got
sir, hand and custody, We've got these others. Okay, let's just
do a lineup and see what the witnesses say. If you go back into
the actual police reports, you see that on multiple occasions the brothers were asked
if they were participating in a lineup, and they essentially said no, we'd
rather not, And the police said, okay, fine. Now, in
how many real crimes in the world does that option happen. It's like,
we've got witnesses that identified you, got a mugshot book, you're going to
be in a lineup. Okay. We also know and to the police reports
themselves say that they were very interested in actually filing charges, possibly accessory charges.
None of that happened. So one of the things we've gotten to make
clear is there were things in this investigation that were very atypical. The two
areas really atypical. The investigation was atypical. Okay, at one point in
time, is Stue referenced there, I counted up I think like twenty five
plus reports of this young woman and the two men in association with Sir Hand
just at the Ambassador Hotel that evening. As Stu said, one of the
LAPD sergents assigned to it did a totally procedurally incorrect polygraph interview of the young
woman. Witness actually bought her drinks beforehand. I mean, this is the
sort of thing that should have gotten kicked off the force, but got her
to admit to saying something false when it provably was not false. Long story
there, She had already told the deputy district attorney the story of the night
of the assassination, and this guy got her to say that was false,
had a record showing she had said it the night of the assassination. You're
talking about Serena went back and literally signed off on dozens of witness reports saying
this is no longer relevant because we have disproven this one witness. These are
things that you should not see in a criminal investigation. Yes, now in
this case, you're talking about Serrano, right, Sandra Serrano would be the
young woman and Sergeant Hernandez would be the officer, right. And we have
heard a tape of him badgering her and telling her, you know, the
ghost of Robert Kennedy and Ethel Kennedy would be grateful if you wouldn't say these
things, I mean, very very weird, pressuring to get her to change
her story. If you're to take it as benign, Larry, don't you
if you could see at that point in time, if it's hard not to
infer that there's political pressure going on within Special Unit Centered at a minimum,
because these guys have now had weeks to chase these leads. They can't get
anybody, And how are you going to close it down? The only way
you can close it down is to make the witness look witnesses look bad,
so you can close off the investigation and let the DA do his thing.
I would not be surprised at all if the pressure had been coming from the
DA's offices, because no DA wants this sort of stuff paining around when they've
got a guy in custody who was taken in to custody with a smoking gun.
Literally, you don't want a conspiracy to screw up your prosecution, right,
because you have a sure thing in hand here. This guy was tackled
by you know again it's Rapper Johnson and Rosie Greer, So you got you
know, former NFL and former Olympian, right, isn't that? I think
that's Rayper Johnson was an Olympian, was yeah, yeah, oh yeah,
ye had a new Raye for my ouf at one point time. Briefly would
not want to tackle the man. No, but I mean these two guys
tackling you and Sir Han not exactly the most intimidating of figures, you know,
physically small guy, but these both of these guys had you know,
excuse the expression, a hell of a time just trying to you know,
control him and get the arms slammed down as they're tackling him to get him
to stop shooting. Quite interesting there, okay, But but nonetheless, we
don't want to go into the logistics on the shooting and all that, but
there's plenty of a story there. And again, yeah, I would highly
recommend what turned out to be I think John Hunt's final work regarding this case,
because he's meticulous about the way he puts things together, always has been,
always will be. I mean, this is a guy went and photographed
the single bullet from what twenty angles. I mean, you know, what
are you gonna do? Just to show how? And I just encourage if
anybody has the least bit of interest in this, in the crime scene and
what happened with the crime scene the autopsy. John was a professional model builder,
so what he did was to get and he was also in a position
of actually working with one of Sir Hein's attorney's researchers, got access to documents
at the time nobody else was seen. He literally recreated and built a professional
class model in his basement, did all the measurements, and then compared the
measurements of the model that he built to what the criminologists was saying in his
crime scene report. And you can see right off he immediately started finding that
the criminologist Wolfer had gimmicked his measurements and his positioning of people and tables to
defend a shooting sequence that just is impossible. But that's the kind of level
of detail John went into and destroys the crime scene evidence essentially, right,
right, So with all that in mind, I guess we'll take a quick
break here and pull ourselves together during that break and get to the conclusion of
this discussion, which will not take long. On the other side, stick
around, Larry Hancock and Stu Wexler with me, and we're talking about the
RFK assassination and some information that is just as rare as is the focus on
this particular event, this particular murder, this particular political assassination during an era
of assassinations. Like I said, I kind of bookend this between med Grebbers,
which happened earlier in nineteen sixty three than the Kennedy assassination, and then
I go all the way through to the Black Panthers. Some people argue with
me on that, but sorry, I see what I oh Chilly dot Com
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from the wet sad sup this get ready? Get ready for so Larry Hancock
and Stu Wexler are still with me. Final segment for tonight, and we're
gonna kind of wrap this up with an interesting piece of information and you know,
people of interest here real quick, Larry, let's pick up where we
left off, though, if you don't mind and go ahead, sure,
I think one of the most interesting things. And again two things that make
this dramatically unlike Dallas is the people that were being reported and people we've just
talked about. You know, the young woman and the young men were you
know, were very visible. They were not covert at all. They've been
reported by lots of people. Uh, they were, as stud said,
after the assassination they left the area, they were laughing. You know,
these are in no way trained professionals. This is kind of like a pickup
squad. I mean seriously, And that's why they were seen and commented on
by so many people as they were acting strangely, which again, as I
say, it's totally unprofessional, totally not what you would expect if this is
some sort of well organized professional conspiracy. That and one of the places that
they were most commented about and reported was in the Robert Kennedy campaign headquarters.
Uh. Kennedy had been in the area campaigning for some weeks and made visits
to certain several locations and had campaign headquarters set up, and the campaign workers
themselves. One of the locations went to the FBI, not in the even
the LAPD, and said, look, you know, there were a group
of people here that were acting very suspiciously and we need we have their names,
you need to investigate them. They actually, on at least one occasion,
came with a young man that several of us think look exactly like Sir
Hans her hand again, if not very close to him. Their behavior was
suspicion. They had no real reason to be here, and we think they
need to be investigated. And as it turns out, LAPD did pursue the
lead copy I mean, FBI pursued the lead copied LAPD, who really did
not pursue it. FBI played lead on it and did the approach to these
people. It's unclear quite why, but I will let's do go for over
there. It's a family that actually you could do a lot of background roach
work on a lot of contextual work. And since they had been reported as
matching the descriptions for so many people, you would have thought that it would
have been a quite serious investigation, not just into you know, were you
there, Oh yeah, we were at the office. Were you at the
ambassador well yeah maybe yeah, But no background work was done at all.
And this was a family of an individual Iranian expatriate named kyber Khan and they
turn out to be particularly interesting. One of the reasons they're particularly interesting is
they weren't really investigated, even though they were reported by so many people.
And I'll hand it off to Stu at this point in time, right now,
Stu, the con family before you get into that, just real fast
a point of reference. If people want to go and take a look at
your work, is there a single place that you would have them go.
I know that I could recommend one of your books highly and obviously the ones
that you co authored with Larry for sure, But you know where else could
people go ahead and you know, get into your work. They wouldn't find
the con issue in my writing. They would find, I believe, and
Larry could correct me if I'm wrong. They'd find some references to it in
Larry's writing on the Mary Farrell site, someone who did at one point in
time, and you know, they may well still have some part for it,
but they kind of diverted things into a different direction. One of the
first people to really elucidate this was what would be Lisa Pease, but maybe
her older work even and stuff you can find online rather than her book,
although I think her book, I'll be honest, it's very very big.
I did not go into it. I'm sure it mentions it, but she
actually brought to the surface. Some of the other researchers did, but she
really dove into it a lead and highlighted it years ago that I'm going to
go into right now that Larry and I did some follow up work on and
maybe and I'm never surew we go into more depth about this particular overall lead.
If I went beyond Sirhan and his family, this would be the group
of people who I would be looking most carefully at, and in fact,
I'd be looking very hard to find try and find out whether or not and
how they might have actually interacted with Cyran's family. And this would be the
cons And this would be you know, the person who often gets brought up
as Khyber Khan, who's sort of this playboy Iranian exile. This is the
time of the Shah, this is before the Iranian Revolution. He's a very
tricky person to pin down as to where his loyalties truly stood if they didn't
just stand to him alone. And he's sort of this international man of mystery
type who starts to get involved in the RFK campaign in very heavily, while
in sixty eight he's at the Ambassador and he is, at least according to
some people seen in the company of Sirhan, He's not the one I find
the most interesting, although he connects very closely to the one Larry and I
think both find the most interesting. And that comes from a far out story
involving a well regarded reporter from New York who on the night of the assassination,
and his name slips my mind, but on the night of the assassination,
this guy starts hearing the stories about the Polka doont address girl, and
he starts hearing the physical descriptions of her right and for whatever reason, he
loosely like he contacts I believe sources to get to law enforcement and investigators in
California and says, I think I know who this girl might be, and
she seems to resemble from the descriptions and trigger my memory of a girl who
gave flowers. I think it was to the Shah, which is a weird
thing when you understand the background of the family when he had visited New York
within I think the past year, and you may want to look into her.
Sure Enough, they dig in and find out who the girl was who
gave the flowers in New York. And you know, in this world of
unbelievable coincidences, she happens to be a woman named Sharon Khan, who was
I believe the daughter of Kayber Khan and who was unquestionably at the Ambassador that
evening. So you understand, the guy from New York had from every all
accounts, no nothing, but a strong hunch that some girl he saw in
some official, sort of quasi official, you know, act in New York
City, because she fit met the description, you know, and it wasn't
like a super duper specific description of the Pokadada dress girl might have been the
Pokadada dress girl. What are the odds to add up the odds that that
person was in California at the Ambassador Hotel on the night of the assassination and
is related to somebody that, completely independently of her, was reported for suspicious
activity and connected to the in connection with the assassination, and was, in
fact, and this goes to Larry's point, tentatively investigated Tiber Khan for the
for a potential role in the In Robert Kennedy's assassination, the odds have gotta
be like millions to one against. And yet with that enormous coincidence, because
in part they were so quick to shut down any discussion of a Polka Dotta
dress girl, the Shearon Khan and Kiber Khan. Ultimately Kiber got a little
bit more of a of a look see than she did or that she warranted,
they get essentially dropped. I mean, there's records of the investigation,
but it's incomplete, and it is our understanding she's still alive, and I
don't know if we want to go into any more depth than that, but
uh, maybe in a future episode. That to me, if if you
want to venture outside of what I think you have at a minimum some level
of complicity potentially from the family, then that's the person who I would absolutely
start with. And I don't know, Larry, you tell me how much
we could go into a future show. Some stuff that's come out in recent
years that makes her even more suspicious and contemporaneous with the time. She would
certainly fit pretty well with the physical description of the pokon Dot dress girl as
I understand it, and as I've observed in photographs. Maybe I'm seeing things
strangely there. But it looks to me like the identification by multiple witnesses.
If you put a Poconont dress on her, not a bad descriptor uh,
maybe it's just me. I mean, I know some people said, you
know, she appeared in Mexican or this and that or whatever, but she
could have That's the interesting thing, you know, if you get her as
we did. We obtained a picture of her from nineteen sixty eight, right
that if you asked the top three nationalities, that would be one of them.
Well, obviously I know what her nationality is, right right, But
if all I had was the picture, that would be one of them.
Well, if I represented that picture to you and I said, look,
this is you know, a lady from Guatemala, or this is a lady
from Mexico, you'd say, okay, it's I have a zero problem believing
that. Yeah, fair enough. So I think one of the things.
Just to again focus back on the the Khan family, Kyber Khan was interviewed.
There was some background investigation and he was the reason he and the family
of interest again is because of their appearance at the Kennedy headquarters and because there
were people there that were very suspicious and people that reported that he had been
there, he had brought several young Arab looking men in. They really thought
that Sir Hannah was one of them. So that's the fact behind this.
And actually when they started checking the list, yes, he had brought his
daughter along with him as well, so you would think that that would the
timing. The timing was if this had really been investigated at a point in
time when they were seriously looking to identify the Polka Dot dress girl, there
might have been a totally different investigation by the time they got to her.
And they actually didn't get to her because they never interviewed her. It's kind
of fascinating. They went to the apartment, they interviewed him, they interviewed
his son, they did not interview the girl. Like they're looking for the
Polka Dot dress girl, but they don't interview the girl and the family.
And the FBI does this initial interview, hands it off to l a p
D. And by the time l a p D gets it, they've already
got attended a person, you know, a blonde who's not obviously not the
Polka Dot dress girl. She just had to have on the right dress wrong
colors. They're done with this, so it never went anywhere. There's never
there's never any exploration of how could these people have been connected to Sir Han,
to Sir Hans brothers, what are their political connections, what's going on
with the background context, what could have been some kind of motive here,
as Sue says, a very very strange motive. You if you look into
none of that was done. That would have had to be done at the
time with a real investigation, and it was not done. And so essentially
the Khan family just got dropped right along with the polka dot dress girl.
And that's really one of the problems that you would face, is it stopped
at that point in time when they wrote off the polka dot dress girl,
they wrote off everything right now, was the blonde lady also the one that
had the cast on her leg? Or was that a difference? Yeah?
Okay, so yeah, because everyone just happened to miss that, because nobody
would have noticed that person was running as on her leg greenvest with yellow polka
dots and you know, like wait a minute, not even close, guys.
Yeah, yeah, that they were desperate. Yeah, And one of
the things Larry does a good job of describing is this person whoever the Poka
dot a dress girl was. She appeared to have basically run or jogged away
from the crime scene. Yeah, and this woman couldn't have done that.
Well, That's why I brought it up, is because you know, if
you even listen to Serrano's initial statement to the media right where she's you know,
all upset and oh I couldn't believe it. I saw it. They
came running out all that, and she's talking about this woman running and you're
not going to do that with a cast on your line. It just or
if you did, it would be quite noticeable. You know, she came
hobbling out with the cast on her I mean, you'd think she would have
mentioned that, not to mention the fact that she said, look, I'm
Mexican. She looked Mexican too, so not really blonde lady. And anyway,
it's it's so ridiculous, but they basically dismissed this. And the funny
thing is that ever after, it's still one of those things that, like
I said, every documentary mentions the girl in the poconon dress, right,
I mean, Sir Han is now at the point of time even in his
hearings of saying, yes, I talked to this girl. I think she's
suspicious. She may have had an influence on me. Now even Sir Han
admits that he just won't name her, or says he won't name her.
Yeah, it's over time. It's opened up to the fact that even he's
admitting that someone may have used him at their succept. But obviously one of
the reasons why you don't want to parole the man is if you parole the
man, you open up all the questions about this investigation. And I would,
by the way again and by two sentences probably worth a future episode.
My old approach that Sirhan would be, I happen to think, you know
a whole lot more about other people who were even loosely complicit in this.
We don't think you shot this guy in the head, but we shoot We
think you were part of a effort to kill people there, including probably him.
We'll let you go, though, we'll commute your sentence because you didn't
actually kill him. If you tell us everything you know, I don't know
if that would work, but that's how I would handle it. Well.
You also have to have a governor that's going to actually sign off on it
too, which because that happened not long ago, it was just the governor
could have signed off on it and he said no. So you know,
it's one of those problems. The one thing that I would say is similar
between Dallas and Los Angeles is that the system failed. I mean, in
Dallas, the federal system failed to do its investigation. In LA, the
state failed. And the problem is, we've talked to any number of people
within you know, through Sir Han's attorneys. Everyone realized that the state did
fail in the Sir hand case, and they failed because they wanted a quit
conviction and it was political and somebody wanted to write coattails of that conviction,
and the system failed. Unfortunately, the system failed both through Robert Kennedy and
Sir Him, Sir Him, and look Stu. Just before we do get
out of here, though, I would like you to give people a reference
to go to check out some other work of yours, even if it's not
associated it's tonight's topic. Uh, directly outside of the books that you know
you co authored with Larry, you have what is that American gi Hot?
I know it's on my bookshelf behind me here America's Secret gy hot is is
my solo effort built on stuff that Larry and I did together, right,
and that would be you could find articles related to it online and even I'm
gonna do more to promote it. A podcast that was recently done about the
individual chapters. But that's where I go, and then I should have I
don't want to jink. Sit. In a couple of months, I can
talk to you about what amounts to a follow up to it. It's going
to be done in connection with a major American university. I'm putting out a
report with some other folks. Wish I wasn't putting out this report with other
because of the subject matter, but it's closely connected to this issue of domestic
terrorism, uh and the potential threats going forward. Well, I certainly when
you're prepared to discuss it, I definitely want to have just you on for
that. Uh. More more than happy to go into it as as much
time as you need and on a special day and time even if necessary.
Whatever we got to do, I want to follow up on that, because
unfortunately it's going to be very necessary to follow up on that. Yes,
true, and I'll be happy to Yeah. So but but definitely. And
meanwhile, look, if you see Stu Wexler's name on it, it's even
better. So I love Larry's work for sure, But but you know,
Stu has co authored plenty of stuff. I've talked about the MLK book before,
I've talked about well, actually more than one MLK book on here.
You know that that you two co authored, but also there's a bunch of
other work that you're attached to there. But that is your solo effort,
and I look forward to what we're going to see in the near future.
And like I said, everybody, also at all times I recommend Larry Dashhancock
dot com go there, follow his blog, many many books, too many
to name here, But fact is, you know, just off topic,
surprise attack, shadow warfare, creating chaos, unidentified, you know, where
do we want to go? Someone would have talked anyway enough there, Larry.
Always great to have you on and really happy that you came on on
a Tuesday to do this, and especially thankful because we got to hear from
Stu Wexler, who it's been too long still, so when we should do
more shows, definitely please And when you're ready to come out with you know
this new material. I definitely want to discuss that and anything else that you
might be involved in in the near future. By all means, let me
know. I'll be more than happy to discuss it with you. Promote if
you're doing any appearances, any public lectures of any kind. Always happy to
support your work, so please by all means, and not just because you
know you got some Jersey roots or anything, but although that might help a
little. But don't worry, Larry, I love it even though you're not
from there, you know that. And anyway, I want to thank you
guys and give you the opportunity to give sort of a you know, a
final thought here if you like, starting with Larry and ending with Stu if
you don't mind, and then we'll just close this one out. So Larry,
you have a final thought you want to put on this. Yeah,
I think the final thought is kind of the way you were setting Chuck.
If if someone really wants to look at the history of the sixties, don't
make it one don't make it one big thing and smear it all together.
You need to look at the individual assassinations before you make assumptions. And I
think that's one of The One of the things that Stu and I continually fight
through is people make assumptions and connect things that aren't necessarily connected. Once you
get into the details, it's easy to make assumptions at a very high level.
Once you get into details, you start seeing the differences. Yeah.
True, you know, Look, it's easy to do because the common thread
of the Vietnam War, the common thread that you know, look, maybe
his brother would have, in a new seat of power, had the ability
to who knows, demand that some more investigation was done into his brother's murder.
Those things I think are relevant, but it gets kind of convoluted when
you go into oh, the Kennedy curse and all of that stuff. I
mean, I know that there's some validity to it because it's kind of a
lot of bad stuff happen here. But then again, you know, it's
not exactly what it's all about. If you actually want to get to what
happened here, you're not going to be able to do it by grouping it
all together. You're right, Larry, So Stu, your final thoughts on
this, I I would second what Larry just said. It gets to the
point where it's almost a little bit lazy given how like incredibly capable and intelligent
the people are who sort of fall into that trap. Oh, it's it's
got to be the national security state, and it's got to be all three.
And when you get down to brass tacks, and especially when you start
getting into the nuances of the historical context of the relevant time period, it
really doesn't add up. You could treat them each as separate. There's probably
very very broadways in which they're connected, but not in the way that I
think a lot of even some of the most well known researchers, you know,
sometimes fall into that trap. So second, what Larry said, be
nuanced and treat each as a case by case basis, and don't let your
political ideology you know. Again, and it was a plot ideology, you
know, Larry mayhad at the time. My father sure as that had.
But it's very easy to let idology dictate evidence instead of let evidence lead you
to conclusions. So that's just what I would say. Right again, I
say, look, there are relevant points here, but they might be more
symptomatic of the time period. It's only a five year stretch between you know,
John F. Kennedy's assassination and King and Bobby Kennedy's assassinations, and they
are all relevant to one another, but they are all completely separate circumstances.
So, you know, again, to get to the brass tacks of it,
it does take a separate investigation. You can't just sweep it all together.
It doesn't necessarily mean the same parties are responsible, although you know what,
some of the same parties might have benefited. But it's not always just
a matter of key bono, right, it's it's a matter of Look,
just because it was beneficial to somebody doesn't mean they were necess necessarily the active
people who pulled it off. There may have been much more highly motivated individuals
for reasons that are not necessarily connected to the others, although they might have
been beneficial. Like I said, if you were, you know, somebody
was in favor of the Vietnam War, you got no problem with John F.
Kennedy, Martin Luther King Junior, and Bobby Kennedy all dying in that
time period, because each one of them had a way of changing the tide
of what it became if you were in favor of it. But it doesn't
necessarily mean that that's the only motivation for this and it doesn't necessarily mean it's
the same group. So anyway, I think that's all relevant, and I
do look forward to doing this more in the future. Perhaps we'll get deeper
into the con family next time and all that. But again I want to
thank Larry Hancock, Stu Wexler and all of you for listening to this discussion
about the RFK assassination and a couple of things there, right, the pokagont
dress girl. Maybe there would been away to not have that be a mystery
had there been a bit more of a meticulous follow through when it was handed
over to the prosecution. And by the way, why not turn over some
other stones and take a look at some of the other relevant family members and
stuff like that, and connection to a weapon. I mean, look,
there's still a lot more to learn and a lot more that could have been
investigated as per usual. I am merely o'chelly. All of you are indeed
the effect. Thank you, and good night.