Hello, Welcome to this episode of the Superhero Ethics podcast. Today we're talking
about a Batman animated story that appeared on HBO, an animated movie based on
a lot of people's favorite comic run of Batman The Long Halloween. This story,
you can see origins of the Dark Night in you can see origins of
the Batman with Robert Pattinson and Paul Happy and I are gonna be diving into
it right after this commercial break. We have no control over. Welcome back.
This is Matthew host. They then pronounced and Paul, this is a
story that I know you have wanted to talk about for a while, Batman
The Long Halloween. And just give a quick explanation for folks. This is
an animated movie you can find on I think it's an HBO plus primarily,
there may be other ways to get DC movies. DC Animation has been putting
out a ton of animated movies, primarily about Batman, some about Superman,
some about more of the Justice League in general. They aren't they talked about
much, but that Paul has really turned me on too. We've been having
a lot of fun going through them, and we're gonna really have a lot
to talk about because it raises some of the fundamental questions of Batman and the
Batman's stories. And we'll tell you more about what the story is in a
second, but first, Paul, let me just have as an intro,
tell me more about like why it was that you loved the story and why
you wanted to be one we talked about, Yeah, so I don't really
follow like what's coming out when and stuff like that, but when when Lee
and I were at her mom's last year, you know, kind of in
the middle of moving we technically didn't really live anywhere for like about a month,
you know, and we were on our way to Vegas. We were,
you know, browsing HBO Max and we're like, oh, there's this
is out. You know, maybe she actually knew it was out because she
like reads things in the news and whatever, but right, but so we
just put it on and watched it and it was like, oh, this
this is really good. And then it was like, wait, that was
part one, and then then there's like a part two, and we watch
the part two, which you know, conveniently actually came out the same day,
which seems like it's interesting that they broke it into into two parts,
and I guess we could talk about that a little later, but basically,
you know, it's it's kind of like a three hour animated movie that covers
the span of a year, you know, from Halloween to Halloween. And
I just think it's the type of Batman's story that is like my favorite type
of Batman's story and is fairly different from a large amount of you know,
other superhero fiction that we see on screen. And and then just the animation
I think is fantastic, and in terms of story, I think DC's animation
is overall, like, on average, the best stuff they put out on
screen, you know, compared to say television non animated, and then like
live action films. I think a large part of that is because the bar
is so much lower in a weird way, and that they're not having to
have this constant like first of all, the budget is much lower, so
they don't need to justify the huge budget, they don't need to have a
huge mass market appeal. And just I think in some ways these movies that
are really helped by mostly flying under the radar screen because they're not therefore in
the you know, well, how does this compare to the other version of
Batman. How does this compare to the Marvel movie that's coming out at the
same time, How does this tie in all these things? It just gets
to be a story on its own in a really great way. Yeah,
And I mean I think this is what you're saying. But in terms of
the bar being lower, I think you mostly mean like, well, like
financially right in terms of like how much money something gross is. And I
mean, I guess in terms of as I said, the bar is low,
not quite an I mean it's more that like the expect the outside expectations
that don't really have much to do with the movie itself are mostly not there,
right, and certainly the you know, broader population doesn't have expectations for
what, you know, the thing's going to look like. I do think
that there are a lot of people who are really into animation DC, and
you know specifically animated DC that you know, occasionally something comes along and is
highly anticipated and is very disappointing to most people, like say the Killing Joke,
which I recently watched a thing about it and I was like, I
was like, I feel like like they're saying things about the animation and like,
I think the animation was fantastic. Like the the story. You know,
there's you know, you can have your issues with the story, sure,
you know, and in terms of how it was adapted precisely. But
but yeah, I mean, I think the expectations are amongst a smaller group
of people, bow I would say, and you just don't have the same
amplitude of you know, the types of reviews that you're going to get and
the types of responses. So I think generally that's like healthier for anything someone's
creating right where it's just like, yeah, you you get to do your
thing. You get to say this is what we want to do, you
do it the best you can, and then people will take it as they
do, as opposed to you know, having huge expectations. You know,
it's like a team that wins a championship and then the next year, you
know if if they're like the runner up, then that's a disappointment somehow.
You know. It's like I feel like that's how how feature films or like
blockbusters are often treated. It's like, oh, well, is this a
disappointment compared to such and such. It's like why why is that? Even
the conversation you know, it's just like can't can't the thing just like live
on its own, like is this good? Is it not good? Do
what you do? Like it? Do not like it? And so I
I that's my very long winded way of saying yes, I agree that I
feel like this animation manages to not be a victim of expectations. And I
think one part of that may be that this is a lot more kind of
day in the life aspect. This is we talked about on the last podcast
a little bit in terms of dread. Well, I'm not sure what orders
would come out in It's where the Good Cart dread, but not even day
in the life, but like a year in the life, a year in
the life. But also this is not part of a very fixed continuity,
and I think in some ways that really helps it, because like I love
the MCU, I do like continuity. But I think part of what has
gotten away from is and I think in some way it's like the age of
the Internet makes this harder. But like there used to be a lot of
stories where it was Okay, we know who these characters are, and because
we're going to tell you a story that isn't about a fundamentally change moment in
this character's life. It's just kind of about like the character doing the thing
the character does, and a lot of other characters doing the things that those
characters do. It's okay that we don't know exactly where this fits in time
compared to this other version of the story, or if it a little bit
contradicts that version of the story. It's just kind of a standalone story using
characters that we know. Well. I think that's very hard to do in
the MCU or like you know, in the in DC now we have to
have long conversations about like, well, the Robert Pattinson Batman doesn't exist in
the same universe as like the Snyder Verse or like this other thing, and
we have specific about it because the animation has never been trying to be part
of one whole, unified universe. Like, yes, this movie does tell
the Hardy down to origin story, and it does tell the death of Falcone,
but it also doesn't it doesn't make pretensions to sort of be like a
definitive story that everything else has to reference. And I think that really helps
it just be its own thing. Yeah, I agree. I do think
that there are basically there are like runs of comics, right, which will
have continuity with each other, and then often they'll have some giant multiverse thing
that's like okay, sure whatever that like theoretically connects all of them, like
I think DC has like fifty two universes exactly. But you'll get so,
you know, and with the animated movies, you you got a series of
them that you know, there was this one run of them that I didn't
love them, you know, but they were kind of all in the same
style, and they kind of all had a continuity. And then there's like
the flashpoint story and then you know, then it kind of reverts and then
they just start making a new continuity, right, And so you you do
get these kind of series, but I don't think there's ever this sense of
this is the you know, definitive version of these characters, right. It's
it's like this series of interpretations and you know, this story as as you
mentioned, the Dark Night borrowed from it, the Batman borrows from it,
right, quite heavily. I mean I think I somewhat jokingly referred to the
Batman movie as the short Halloween, because yes, right, it has so
much from this, but it's a week instead of a year, which for
a for a live action feature film, I think a week or a day
or two or three days. I find usually the perfect length of time.
I think really extended movies don't work that well. The reason this works well
to me is that you know, the principal plot revolves around holiday this like
person who murders people on holidays, and each scene or each sequence, basically
the movies are broken up into segments that are each kind of like one day,
right, and it'll be just a series of holidays. So it's basically
like twelve days play to cross three hours. So you essentially maybe get twelve
fifteen minute segments more or less. A couple of them are shorter, right,
But yeah, I think the fact that there isn't this weight of continuity
on this really lets it breathe more and lets them One of the things I
really enjoyed here is that they have so many members of the Rogues Gallery in
it, right, and they're able to be bit players and you can kind
of do whatever you want with them, and it doesn't feel like, oh,
but that's not that character. It's like, no, that's this version
of that character. And if I didn't like any of the versions of them,
like it wouldn't have felt like such a big deal. I didn't really
dislike any of the versions of them, particularly, you know, there's just
a few things about like, well, why is Ivy like always working for
someone else? She's like the most powerful of all these people and whatever,
you know, Like so she doesn't have the depth that I'd like to see
in her character. But like that's okay, because this isn't like the Poison
Ivy. It's like, it's just Poison Ivy in the one thing, and
she's a small part of it, and like that's fine. And there's a
lot of characters like the Joker, you know, similarly, is this kind
of minor character in this story that just it makes it feel like it's Gotham.
It makes it feel like there's this depth and there's this breadth without feeling
like it's trying to be the defining version of anything. And I just find
that really pleasant. I think that's a really good way to put it.
And it kind of addresses something you and I've always talked about, which is
that the part of the problem with these larger, interconnected universes is that it
doesn't make sense that a whole bunch of people never show up. And yet,
you know, if you have a story where it would make sense for
Captain America to show up for five minutes, but you don't have the budget
for Christopher Evans to do, you know, four days of shooting to get
hit those five minutes, it's hard to make it happen. But here you
can do that. And I will fill in the details of what the actual
story is in a second, but it's it's as Paul said, there's a
stuff that's happening, and so at various points in time, different characters make
appearances, and in many cases it makes sense why they're showing up for various
reasons or another, as you said, some less something, it's just because
someone involved has hired them. And it's like, oh, okay, that's
fine. But the Joker was of my favorites because the Joker, Like,
the minute the Joker shows up, a part of me thinks, oh,
okay, so this is actually a Joker plot on some level, and it's
like, no, the Jokers just mad that this other, this other villain
is getting so much of the headlines and attention. So the Joker's like,
no, I gotta try and fix this. I gotta try to make it
all about me exactly. It literally winds up just like gas attacking a thing
that half the city is going to be at, because this is the Joker
says like, Yeah, there's a fifty percent chance that one of the random
people I kill will be this this guy. And then that way I don't
have losing the attention. And it fits so perfectly for the Joker, and
it gives Batman a chance to deal with a Joker, but it isn't a
Joker story and Joker doesn't take over the story. Yeah, totally. And
yeah, and it just does that with a whole lot of characters, right,
Yeah. Do you want to try giving a brief summary of the story
and so that we can like kind of fill things and as we go,
or do you want me to try and do that. Yeah, I'll I'll
give a brief summary first of all, just in terms of the feel of
the story. I want to say that like it's a story where Batman does
Batman things, but it doesn't really feel like it's a story about Batman doing
Batman things. You know, like like big you know, gadgety like huge
fight scenes and stuff like that's in there, but that's not the focus.
It's really it's a mystery detective story, and it's also less of a story
about Batman being a great detective and more about Batman becoming a great detective.
And the basic premise is Carmine Falcone is like the big mob boss in the
city. And then there's also Maroney, right, who's like its main competition.
And someone kills Falconi's nephew on Halloween, who actually was about to testify
against Alconi, right against Carmine, and so the the whole thing has this
you know, Harvey Dent, James Gordon, Batman, you know trio of
characters doing that whole dark night trying to bring down the Gotham mob, right,
which is like this very traditional mafia situation, And throughout basically throughout the
year, on every holiday or on one holiday per month, basically somebody comes
and kills someone, usually part of Falcone's crime family, right, or family
actually not even they kill someone who's who's not really part of the crime family,
who he doesn't want to be part of the crime family. But so
it feels like it's this you know, something against Falcone. Right. Meanwhile,
there are all of these you know, costumed villains locked up in Arkham,
and at various points, various ones of them get free, right,
And actually I would say that this is the story of if you look at
kind of the over story, the overarching thing, this is the story of
how Gotham goes from being you know, basically like a mobbed up town to
a costumed villain town. Yeah. And there's a clear distinction between the two
in a way that's really interesting, especially in the respective of in some ways,
the traditional kind of like you find him in any you know, Godfather,
Goodfellows movie, criminals are a lot worse or a lot scarier in some
ways, right, exactly. And the I think also like you could kind
of look at it in the like D and D alignment sort of fashion,
where it's like, you know, you've got Harvey Dent and James Gordon,
who are trying to be lawful good, right, and then you have organized
crime, which is awful evil. And then you have you know, the
Joker and people like the Joker, which is like chaotic evil. And then
you have Batman, who's like chaotic good. But everybody's kind of trying to
work with someone else to further their own ends, and you know Catwoman,
who's chaotic. Catwoman who's like somewhere chaotic neutral, a chaotic good exactly,
and like, yeah, in this she's more of you know, she's more
basically just like an anti hero like Batman. You know, there are a
lot of similarities between this Catwoman and the Batman Catwoman. And you know,
at the end of it, not not to give away necessarily the final story,
because I feel like we could kind of cover this without saying, you
know, who what the actual answer to the mystery is, but it's basically,
you know, there's a serial killer, and it's about Batman and others
trying to figure out who that is while all this other stuff goes on at
the same time. Right, Yeah, I think I think it's some point
I do want to say who it is, because I think there's some really
interesting questions around that that gets into some of the things, but we can
have kind of like that will be on a spoiler section later. Okay,
that sounds good for sure, because yeah, I think you're right. I
want to talk about you some of the different parts of it that I most
enjoyed and the questions it kind of raises. You know, it's funny we're
talking about this. This will probably come out a couple of weeks after our
episode on Dread. We have recorded it very recently. After recording the episode
on Dread, the movie about I wanted to say Judge Dread about the Stalone
version. This is the urban version. But the movie deals with a lot
of the same issues that does, and it's questions that are very central to
what I love about Batman in general, which is all these questions around like,
Okay, when you've got a broken justice system and it's almost impossible to
fight the criminal elements because of that broken justice system, and that gets an
all sorts of sociological analysis to be sure, but like what do you do?
And I remember I said at one point as I was watching the movie,
oh, this is going to be the Dark Knight, because it is
set at the beginning while Harvey Dent is still Harvey Dent before anything has happened
to him, and it's Harvey and Gordon fighting with each other about how to
best take down these mobsters at a time when neither one of the two of
them trusts each other, and Batman trying to get in the middle and them
having these interesting conversations about how do we deal with like to what extent can
we break the law or can we cross lines in order to take down these
people from whom there are no lines and there are no laws, And that
part it's very much the Dark Knight story. And then as it continues,
you see that it's kind of the Dark Knights story and the Batman Robert Pattinson's
story all kind of mixed up together at least that both of those are drawn
from this right exactly. So it feels that way when you watch this after
seeing those, but it's like, oh, those just actually extracted these particular
things from this story. And so I want to start there with what was
your take on because certainly, I think, for one thing, it shows
the slow, slow descent of Harvey Dent. Like I love The Dark Knight,
don't get me wrong, and I thought the actor who played him was
fantastic. Aeron Extein, I think it is eart, but it shows it
in a much slower way and a much more protractive Like you said, over
the course of a year, what did you think of Dent did his kind
of evolution of a story in this movie? I feel like this Dent has
a little bit more room to develops. It's interesting because in terms of run
time, this is actually longer than The Dark Knight, right, which feels
like a pretty long movie. I think The Dark Knight is like two and
a half hours. I think that's faver take, right, and this is
three hours, you know, but it's two one and a half hour animated
films or like one twenty five you know, a minute twenty five, minute
twenty seven or an hour twenty five. Sorry, So it feels like there's
more room for some of those things to breathe here. Also, you know,
The Dark Night, like, I mean, I think Aaron Eckhart did
a great performance of Harvey Dent and then two Face, but I mean Heath
Ledger was just sucking up all the oxygen in the movie, you know,
Like like I'm not saying the Joker wasn't great in this, but the Joker
doesn't dominate the story, you know, as we've discussed, and there are
a lot of characters here, and so I'm not even sure Dent gets more
screen time. But the fact that this has spread out over a year,
it just you know, so you get to kind of see these snapshots of
where Dent is at these different points in time, right, it kind of
I'm not gonna go there was I was going to say something about the Last
Jedi, not the last Jed. Jesus, what am I talking about?
Um? I was gonna say something about Tales of the Jedi and how it
developed a particular character over several instances. But if you had like twelve instances
there, maybe it would have felt different. Right, And so here it's
like you get these little snapshots of where Harvey is at different points in time,
and for me, that really sells it because it lets there be this
this transformation that isn't just oh, you know, this one event happened and
now all of a sudden he's two faced, right, even though that was
kind of in there, that was his nickname whatever, But like that one
kind of goes from like white night straight to like two face. And this
feels like there's always this conflict in there. There's there's always some complexity to
the character. We don't see all of it, right, it's not the
Harvey Dent story, but but that is a huge part of the story.
And they get to kind of have a little bit more of a slow burn
with it, both because of runtime and because of the fact that it's like
the basically these like you know, this dozen snapshots throughout time, right.
And I think one reason why it really works is that, as you said,
it's not just the one moment it does. There's a lot of having
to do with his family. But more than anything, instead of thinking about
him losing someone, it's about it's really about cynicism and pragmatism and him starting
out is this because one of the first kind of major conflicts is they come
a bunt. They come across a whole pile of you know, Falconi's money
and like literally just like stacks of cash, and they're trying to decide what
to do with it. And one of the things they realize is if they
go by the books, if they follow the law and what they're supposed to
do, of like turning it in, there's a very good chance that Falconi
is going to intercept that at some point and get it back because the whole
system is so corrupt. And Catwoman is kind of there and winds up suggesting
what they wind up doing, which is burning it, which is very illegal.
And you can tell that like Dent is the one who winds up coming
around to that position, but you can see that he's wrestling with it and
that from that and then as you said, it's almost a year later that
he gets you know, attacked and has his face burned away, this time
with acid. Unless he winds up becoming too face. You just get to
see his sort of gradual. To me, it's such a fundamental question that
hits for all of us because it's about lack of faith in a system.
You know, he starts out as the character who most thinks, no matter
how much corruption there is, no matter how much goodness, how much badness
there is, the law and the system of justice and the system of laws
will will work if we stick to it. And really the stories about his
just losing all faith in that, Yeah, and you know at the beginning,
Gordon's like, bend the rules, don't break them, but you know,
and then they just they just break them right away. But but there's
this this wrestling with that right and this like you know, I mean,
he's a da like his whole career is I am going to use the law
to you know, try And mostly it's specific this this one guy he seems
to like really want to go hard against. But I think overall, he's
you know, a true believer that that is the way or at least a
way, if not the way of trying to to change things right. And
you know, we're led to believe things have been quite bad and that there's
you know that this cynicism is is shared, you know, by most of
the population, and I think, really, um, you know, it
ends up kind of coming through that like, yeah, that maybe that's just
not gonna work. Um yeah, And you know, by the end of
it, there's a question like is I mean, is is any of it
going to work? You know, is doing things not according to the system?
Does does that work? Like? You know, I mean, in
that regard, it's almost a much less hopeful story than The Dark Knight is
at least and he were talking about how The Dark Knight is about like the
fall of Harvey Dent, because by the end of the Dark Night you certainly
get the perspective that there's this idea that, like a White Knight fall,
the White Knight didn't work, but that actually what Batman does does work and
will help and will turn around the city, even if it has to be
done in away where no one understands what Batman's actually doing or that kind of
thing, and then it gets really messy with a third movie, but there
is I think an interest. To me, the end of the Dark Night
movie is much more hopeful, whereas this one is like, Okay, well,
like Batman, like Harvey Dent has been caught, it's been figured out
who Holiday is, and that has its own ending. But I don't have
any sense that like Batman has turned things around in the city in any way.
Yeah, definitely not. Right at the end, Batman is there on
the rooftop you know where the bat signal is with Gordon and two Face now,
and he says something like was it worth it? And two Face says
he wants to know whether the good guys won him, and Gordon's like,
yes, the good guys won, but we won't know for a very long
time if it was worth it, which to me is like saying, yes,
we won this battle in terms of we achieved the goal of taking down
Carbine Falcone, right, but we won't know for a long time whether or
not that's going to make a positive difference for the city. Right. Yeah,
I think that's a really good way to put it in that that was
the exact language that was occurring to me of the battle versus the war,
and it's it's part of a trend that I think I'm really appreciating because you
know, we had like decades and decades of like, Batman is good,
Batman is helping Gotham, and then you always had to wonder, like,
so, why is Gotham so bad after so many decades of Batman doing this?
But that's the timeline of comics. But then I think you started to
get a lot of criticism of Batman starting about like ten years ago or so.
That was like, well, but Batman's not actually helping. All that
is doing is punching poor people, which I think there's some legitimacy of those
complaints, like why doesn't Batman spend his money to make the city better?
I think he actually does in a lot of ways, and a lot of
those stories don't. It's easy to sort of make that critique without realizing that
that's not quite accurate. But that's a whole other story. But I appreciate
that, I think with some of the newer stories, and I think Pattinson's
Batman definitely does this and this Batman does it as well. Instead of it
being attacking him himself. It's much more of a like, yeah, Batman
is winning these individual battles, and he's saving people's lives by doing so,
and he is stopping bad people by doing so, what is he winning the
war? And I really appreciate that level. And I think in part that's
part of the self reflection that Pattinson is going through in the movie, and
that by the end of that movie, he kind of is like, well,
maybe by giving hope instead of by giving fear, I can win the
war in a different way. And I this movie doesn't get to that place
of hope by the end, but I guess it sort of does with the
Trick or Treaters. But I think I really like that about this movie,
is that it's giving a chance for him to for him to win the battle,
but for him himself to say, like, I don't know if this
is winning the war. Yeah, And you know, I think I have
a lot to say about those particular criticisms, and I I won't get too
deep into it, but basically just I think it's always been or for a
long time, I think it's been more complicated than that. But I do
think, like you know, there's there's a thing in the like the very
first scene is Falconi trying to get Bruce Wayne to sign on to doing some
thing with him, some business thing because Falconi and um Thomas and Martha Wayne
had like done some things like building some hospitals together or whatever that somehow,
you know, maybe lent some legitimacy to like the Falconi name, right,
but also like you know, built hospitals right like and and Bruce just responds,
you know, I believe in Gotham City. And at the end Falconi
asks the same thing, He's like, do you still believe? And and
Batman's like, I do you know? And I guess somehow he knows that's
him. Um oh, because yeah, he basically tells him it's him because
of the thing about the coin or whatever. There's there's like a line of
dialogue that's shared um where he basically tells a dying Falconi that you know he's
Bruce Wayne. And I think, um, and it I think there's this
idea that like, like Batman does believe in in Gotham and like wants Gotham
to be better, but that it's like that it's complicated and that I think
there is some logic to the idea or some truth to the idea that like
you you can't just ignore like violent crime, right, Like you can't just
have people going around murdering people and then not do anything to try and make
that happen less basically, right, But that also one of the main reasons
that there is as much violent crime as there is or violence. I'm not
even gonna say crime, right. The reason there is as much violence as
there is is partially because of resources and a lack of resources and the desperation
that comes from having a lack of resources. And so you know, I
think sometimes you get people saying, oh, we should only address this situation
like in terms of like social programs, and then sometimes you get people saying,
oh, we should only address this situation in terms of like, you
know, really harsh policing. And I'm not arguing for the government doing both
of those like exactly right, But what I'm saying is overall, like,
I think you have to find ways to address both the urgent immediate right now,
you know, somebody is suffering from violence and the ever present pressing issue
of there are resources are not being distributed adequately to everyone. Basically, yeah,
I think that makes a lot of sense. And I think the way
I've been kind of seeing it more and more, and I think you help
me understand that the Batman, the Patentson movie kind of actually has some of
this in it that I think if the view is we have this broken system,
and as part of this broken system, people are getting hurt, people
are getting killed, and bad people are doing bad things and getting away with
them, and the phrase bad people there is very subjective, obviously, but
that one thing that can be helpful is to have a person who is some
times using violence as a way to protect people and to stop people from doing
bad things. Maybe we'd just get rid of the whole idea of bad people
in general, but just like stopping people from doing bad things and protecting people
from bad things happening to them. And I think for too long the thought
was if you do that enough, and if you punch the people who are
doing the bad things hard enough, they'll stop doing the bad things and everything
will be better. And then the other side of the argument is banbill,
but no, you're actually making things worse by punching the bad people and trying
to save people. And I think the first point is clearly wrong. The
second point, I think there's some truth too, but I think goes way
too far, and at least what I'm coming down to it, I think
you're coming to a similar place is like what Batman is doing is one necessary
part of the equation. There also needs to be word like what Batman is
doing is saying, we've got a bad system and people are being hurt and
people are getting away with it, and I'm going to try and within that
system, try and make those two things change. And I'm reflecting the fact
that that those things in the system are a big part to me, that
those things in the system are a big part of what it makes it hard
to change the system. So that I'm hoping that my like protecting more people
and stopping more people from doing bad things and maybe giving some people some hope
will create room for other people. And maybe I'll help or maybe I'll not.
Maybe it's Bruce Wayne who'll do this to actually make the change happen.
And it's kind of a V for Vendetta thing of like v can do all
the violence to stop things, but it's the people who then have to like
actually make the change and do the positive thing and I think what I'm coming
down to is that kind of a place of like, I think Batman can't
punch the system until it is better, but Batman can figure things out,
do the detective work, do the fighting work, protect people, stop bad
things from happening, and and so doing making it possible for maybe him or
maybe others to actually make the change. But that those have to be two
kind of different things. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes a
ton of sense, you know, and especially you know, I mean if
Batman can stop the you know, stop people from causing harm to others without
causing irrevocable harm to those people, right that are attempting to inflict the harm,
like, you know, and that's sort of the you know, the
difference between like lethal and non lethal. In in comic books, you have
non lethal. In our world you have less lethal, right, less likely
to be lethal, but like in terms of using that sort of violence as
opposed to just killing everybody like the punisher would, right. And I think,
you know, V for Vendett, is a great example because like V's
not going to just take the mask off and then be someone who's like,
you know, trying to help solve the other side of the equation, right,
whereas Batman can take the mask off and pretend he's just Bruce Wayne,
and then I probably do a lot of good in theory, you know.
And I mean, of course, it's not like you can necessarily just use
a bunch of money to change everything, but you know, money does help,
and I think influence helps more. And yeah, I don't think this
is a perfect example, and certainly it gets watered down over the many seasons
in different directions it goes. But I think I'll ever Queen is a good
example of how that can work, where at least in a CW show,
and I think in some of the other versions as well. You know,
the Arrow or the Green Arrow is doing that kind of Batman work, but
then his other persona Oliver Queen is using his money and using his political influence
to try and change the system and make the systemic changes so that it's not
all the bad things that are happening. And I think in the patents in
movie, I think we're starting to get there, especially in the way that
movie ends. And so yeah, I would love to see more of that
kind of thing. And which is again, let me actually back up your
second because my point is I'm not saying that those are there for better than
this. I'm saying what I like about this is I feel like it's much
more honest about saying this is what Batman can do, and there's a whole
lot he can't do. And that the reason why the ending of it is
so beautiful is that it's Alfred who's kind of saying, like, no,
but there is hope, Bruce, that what you're doing can create space for
other people to do that. And the fact that the kids are going back
trick or treating again is the proof of that in a really great way.
Yeah, exactly exactly. Um, And and it does. There is a
thing about you know, I think Batman saying like I think Batman, can
you know, make a difference or something like that, or still he says
something and then Alfred's like, I you know, I think the same is
true of Bruce Wayne, right, And yeah, and yeah, the the
you're right with the trick or treaters at the end, it does. Um
it does have that that that feel of like, oh, maybe you know,
maybe there is some some hope for the city. Basically, um.
Yeah. I also, I think you talked about this at the very beginning
in terms of what you liked about it, I think as part of that,
it is so important that this is primarily not like the biggest thing Batman
does is being a detective. He I don't think we ever see the Batmobile
or like any kind of super We don't see much like super gadgets or like
Batman doing all like the Great Toys, as Jack Lexon Joker calls it.
Like, mostly what we see Batman do is is figuring out mysteries and occasionally
winning fights when he needs to win fights. And I really like that because
I think it also kind of highlights that, like, in many ways,
the biggest thing that Batman can do is not just win fights with violence and
cool toys and show off, but is can dig into the things no one
else wants to dig into and figure things out. Yeah. Absolutely, I
mean it's it's interesting because most of the story is about mobsters of one type
or another, or various criminals right getting killed, or and cops and dash
no our our das killed in this I mean, but I just mean that
it's it's about Dent and his family as much as it is about the dance
and the Falcons. Yeah, but I was. I was making a very
specific point, which is the violence done is basically violence largely against h It
is like very specific, targeted violence against the Falcone family and associates. Right,
it's not about these big plots to destroy all of Gotham. The Joker
tries to, you know, murder half of the people theoretically, and Batman
stops him, but that's like a side note. That's usually act three.
Yeah, you're right, right, there is no big plot to stop,
right. The big plot to stop is usually the main act. Like in
The Batman there's a big plot to stop at the end, because that's how
you structure blockbusters. And I feel like there's value you in that act.
I don't feel like it ruins the movie or anything. And I don't think
it's a third act. It's like a seventh act or whatever. I haven't
really thought a ton about the exact structure of the whole movie, but I
do know that's a thing that a lot of people felt like, like do
we need to do this? And I do actually co sign the view like
no, I don't think you needed to do that exactly that way, right.
I do think it's interesting that here, you know, the most public
thing Batman does is save all those people from the Joker, right, right,
But that's a side note in this story, which I actually find a
lot more elegant and interesting, where it's like Batman's trying to solve this mystery
of a bunch of you know, criminals mostly getting killed and you know spoilers,
eventually maybe he does, and but he saves like these tons of people
from Joker talks in and like that's a side note, right, that's just
like, oh, yeah, this happened, and I think that's kind of
cool to frame the story that way. The Big Bad's plan is to eventually
kill the last of the mobsters, and it works like the Big Bad does
the thing the Big Bad wants to do. Do you do you want to
actually get to the spoiler section? Now, yeah, I was saying,
let's let's do that. So let's just take a quick break and then we're
gonna talk about the who Holiday is and some other spoiler stuff and then wrap
up right back, all right, so we're back, So yeah, let's
start talking about the Big Bad Holiday and who it gets revealed to be.
Because we're now it's spoiler sections going into spoilers in three two one Holiday is
Gilda Dent, Harvey's wife, which I definitely did not see coming. What
did you think of kind of the way that story wound up playing out?
I thought it was I liked it a lot. I think early on you
were briefe supposed to entertain the notion that maybe it was like the Joker or
something, because he just escaped at a certain time. But then you're supposed
to, oh, it's not him. And at the end of the first
one, you were supposed to think it was Alfonso Falcone m Carmine's son,
right, who actually was Gilda's first husband, And they had met at Oxford
and and she was pregnant, and then they got married, and then Carmine
found out and had it annulled and forcibly aborted the you know, the fetus
or whatever it was at that stage, which you know that's not pro choice,
right, right, Like non consensual abortions are bad. And she uses
the words ripped from my womb, and while the word infertility has never stated.
Yeah, there's a running flought line with Harvey and her that she can't
have children, and so they think the idea is that I did it in
a way that want to basically like she's unable to get pregnant again or unable
to carry a trail right exactly, like like they might have you know,
hysterectomized or whatever is that a word? Um? Yeah, like so so
you know this is violence done to her. This isn't you know, a
choice of hers anyway. And those by the way, who who decided not
you don't want to go watch the movie, which is totally fine though I
think it is very good. But for those who are fine being spoiled but
are still listening along, we only learn all this at the very end,
right. Um. Yes, I will say I definitely knew it was hard,
Like, um, I watched a lot of mysteries and um there you
know, I there are things I won't talk about, like how the mystery
was kind of presented, but I do think they did a lot of things
that are an effective way of throwing people off the trail, right, which
which when you watch ton of mysteries then often kind of become like meta clues,
you know. Yeah, where Like I will also say I watched it
well, very high on some antim migraine medicine. I was having trouble falling
some parts of the plot, so it's pready possible. It was a lot
more obvious than I thought. Fair fair, I wouldn't say that I thought
it was obvious. I would say that they did some things that I that
I found to be very clear. Mistrex, Like they kept talking about Holiday,
Oh, him, him, this guy, this guy, and I'm
like, they keep saying him, like it can't possibly be a woman.
And that's exactly the sort of thing you want to do if the killer is
actually a woman, right, And and then you know there's some other things
throughout, But um yeah, I thought it was a good mystery. I
didn't think from like, you know, the first scene that it was her.
You know, it took a while. I think I solved it before
Batman did. But I like that throughout Batman is like, you know,
I didn't know the Batman have to be a detective to do this basically,
right, And then by the end he becomes a good enough detective to solve
it, right, and no one else does except well Harvey actually solves it.
Yeah, right, and and Harvey actually kills Carmine. Um right,
it's not it's not it's not her who does it. And then when he
gets caught. He takes credit for all of everything that happened, kind of
covering for her exactly. And we don't even know whether Batman tells anyone else
at the end, because he's basically he's like, I need to know that
holiday is done. And she's like not done finished, Like that was it?
You know, She's she's not like a serial killer who wants to kill
a lot of people. She's a person with a vendetta that has been completed,
you know, right, And and so I think at the end of
it, Batman's like, yeah, okay, like and I think he's like
his parents were also killed by Falcone, right or by their association with him,
maybe by Moroni, I'm not sure. And I think it's stated that
like nobody knows, right, it's not clear. It's clear that that was
the reason they got killed, but it's not clear exactly who did it,
which I have to make a quick interruption. We do see a flashback to
his parents' death, and we saw a hand reach for the pearls and I
audibly groaned, but then they drip away and that's always see of the pearls,
and I was like, Okay, that's fine. There's no slow motion
of pearls. I can deal with that. Yeah, And we don't even
really see them get shot in like full frame, you know, the way
it's shot is it. I think it shows their faces and then it shows
like Bruce's face, and then it cuts back to Batman in crime alley which
they don't name, and some other family who's like get away from him and
right, and it's happening while he's on a hallucinogenic rug. So it's much
like I don't want to keep seeing that scene, but I feel like,
if you're gonna show me that scene, they both earned it in the plot.
And then also like didn't do it as bad as it normally is that
that was by a side. We can go back to the main Yeah,
yeah, one hundred percent, one hundred percent. And you know, I
was happy in The Batman where they didn't have that scene right here. I
felt like, Okay, if you're going to do it, that's the way
to do it. Cool moving on, great um, And you know,
and and because this is an earlier Batman, this is like year two Batman.
Right, there's a there's a comic Batman Year one, and this is
like year two basically, And yeah, so I think I think Batman like
understands, like Bruce understands where Gilda is coming from, you know, in
terms of this like wanting vengeance and he's chosen a different path. But you
know, she's essentially gotten vengeance on all the people that he might have wanted
vengeance on. Um. So it's so you could say he's got like a
little bit of a conflict of interest really and in terms of like letting her
walk or maybe letting her walk, we don't even know, but it does
seem like he's just like, Okay, well you did all these you know,
you you caused all this harm to all these people. But if you're
done now, okay, you know what am I going to do? What's
the point in bringing you in? And you know, and like he just
stands there while she's destroying the evidence. Yeah, it reminds me a lot
of you're probably gonna much more about this than I do. And we don't
need to go to into the details. But Dexter is another favorite TV show
of both of ours. I think the ending notwithstanding, yes, but where
one of the points is like he is someone who, on the one hand,
like he wants to kill in order to like, you know, have
vendettas and to take out bad people. But for him it also is a
compulsion. For him, it is a compulsion he couldn't just stop. And
he was across as someone who he thinks might be kind of like a partner,
both romantically but also in the same way. But what is it revealed
eventually is that she had a similar thing. She had a vendetta against the
specific group, and once she's finished with that, she no longer needs to
kill the way he does. And in some ways I think that that's kind
of a question that Batman is trying to get at in that final scene with
Gilda, of like, are you going to do this again? And you're
right, we don't know exactly what happened. We don't know if he turns
a rand, but I think he doesn't because I think he I think it's
pretty clear, is that he is satisfied that she believes she's not going to
do this again, and then he just he doesn't really say anything. He
just walks away. Yeah. Yeah, And I think that's that to me
matches kind of what sort of the lack of the idea of justice being the
most important thing right the idea of being like the most important thing is what's
going to happen next. You know, Okay, we know that you did
these things, right, we know that you murdered these people. Are you,
you know, a murderer in terms of your actions? Well? Sure,
yeah, But are you a murderer in terms of your like what you
want to do with your life? You know, like like dexter Is is
compulsively wants to kill, like it's just a thing, right, and and
so you know his dad from Jericho, uh, wants to like find a
way for him to channel that in a constructive way that also won't get him
in as much trouble, right, And here that's not like who this guilda
is as as far as we can tell. I mean, sure, I
would think like if someone deeply wrongs her in the future, she's more likely
than a random person to then go through some sort of violent vendetta. But
all the people that she really had on her list are she crossed off everyone
on her list, And it's like, you know, okay, well it
doesn't seem like you're going to be causing a lot of harm going forward,
so you know, go live the rest of your life. I mean I'm
so torn on that, because you're right, I think this is kind of
what we talked about with with Dread not long ago. Criminal justice can have
a number of different approaches, and one approach can be you did a bad
thing and so therefore you should be punished, which I think both you and
I are like pretty strongly rejecting because it's to be proven, it doesn't work,
and it feeds into the worst impulses. Another is, we want to
prevent you from doing future harm, and so therefore we're going to put in
a place where you're incapable of doing future harm, which I think you know,
I think can be very helpful. But also there's like a difference between
helping to get someone to a point where they're not going to do harm versus
just locking them away in a cage somewhere. But I think a third thing
is that preventing people in society from doing harm in general does involve letting them
know that if they do harm and get caught, then something bad might happen
to them. And like, to me, here it kind of goes to
the thing you were saying before about how like I fully want to reform the
justice system, but I also don't want to say, because right now we
have a broken police system, we should do nothing about people who do violence
to each other until we have a good system to treat them with, you
know, like we got to do something about it still today and now.
So I think that's the one part where I stumble a bit, though I
do think that they resolve it well, because I do think that, like
you know, I think a world in which we say, if you do
a bad if you kill someone, but then by the time you get caught
you can prove you're never gonna do it again. You always get to walk
free. Like that's not a good situation. But the problem being that if
people think, like, oh, someone else killed and got away with it.
The fact that Harvey done takes responsibility for all those crimes, I think
is the one other factor that I think helps Batman be okay with it,
because I do think that Batman at some levels, like I said, he's
not just going to say, Okay, you're never gonna kill again, I'm
gonna all of you walk free. But the fact that he both understands where
he's coming from, where she's coming from so much he sympathizes with that.
But Also I think that someone else has taken credit, so at least in
the public's mind, this this this crime has been dealt with, is a
part of what allows him to walk back up those stairs. Yeah, I
agree, um with with with that last part for sure. I think in
terms of you know, punishment as a means of dissuading people from doing things,
I think that's a that's a whole conversation, you know. But I
do think here it is definitely true that he is, you know, given
that opportunity to not not have someone visibly walking free, right to have the
case be closed, as you know, two face and Harvey took credit.
And it's like, okay, well, what's the value in Like, he's
he's going to be an Arkham as long as Arkham can hold him, which,
as we all know, is probably not very long. But you know,
it doesn't really matter whether he I mean, because he definitely killed Carmine,
right, so like, yeah, you know, he'll he'll be in
there for a while no matter what. Um. And then and he also
I guess he orchestrated the Arkham prison break as well himself, so even more
evidence that it probably won't hold him that long. Um, yeah. And
and to be clear, to be clear, I'm not saying that like retribute
of justice helps with prevention, like that's been proven to be very clear.
I'm just saying that also like a system of no consequences whatsoever doesn't seem great
either, and that just yeah, yeah, I get you, I get
you. Yeah. So so I feel like, you know it, Batman
kind of gets to have it both ways here right where he gets to let
this person who has been greatly harmed and then done a large amount of harm
as well, um in vengeance for that, he lets to let her walk
and then you know, maybe have her second life or third life as this
it seems like this this middle one's kind of been like a purgatory of sorts
for her, and like who knows what she'll do after that? Right,
Um, And there is this theme of like a second life obviously Batman,
you know from Bruce Wayne. But there's this this great scene between um,
Harvey Dent just before he becomes to face and Solomon Grundy who just keeps saying
born on a Monday and and like, but then Harvey goes through the whole
cycle of like on Tuesday, Um, something else happened and Wednesday, and
then you know he died on Sunday, and then Grundy's like born on a
Monday, and he's like reborn. And then then you know, Dent takes
off the bandages and now two face, and you know this is very clearly
kind of his his second life, and so you know, maybe Gilda can
have a second life as whatever else. You know. I did quite like
the character of Luca Grundy, I mean, sorry Solomon Brazzi, I mean
sorry Solomon Grundy as the Luca Brazzi stand in for this, And yeah,
I thought that was really the use of that poem was really well done.
Yeah, I don't know you had mentioned that. I mean, I think
there's definitely some like nods to the Godfather, as in not to mention like
specifically calling m Carmine, you know, the Godfather. But I didn't totally
get the the Luca Brazzi, um you know, uh connection. I mean,
he didn't sleep with any fishes. I guess he actually does. He
lives in the sewer, so I don't know. Yeah, I think just
in like they put him in a suit and they had him as the kind
of like almost nonverbal but big effective killer type. Yeah, okay, fair
fair, so more in terms of vibe rather than kind of plot positioning.
I got you. I feel that. Yeah. So there's one other thing
I want to say about the guild of thing, and then we can do
some kind of last things in the wrap up, which is that I think
part of why I didn't see it is like it works very well for the
story, and I think if I hadn't gotten really invested in the other version
of what we were seeing of her, I would have liked a lot more.
But one of the things that is done is that and I think probably
some of this is very real, but some of this is to sell her
story throughout the story until then, Guilda is very much kind of a shut
in and like she's constantly like she has obviously like a lot of very down
moods, and she doesn't want to go out as much as Harvey does,
and like be seen in public as much as Harvey does. And I thought
it was one of the most beautiful explorations I had seen of a character going
through long term depression and reproductive loss of some kind. And the way they
showed Harvey not like hitting her, like being terrible to her, but still
reacting in the way that I think is very common, but it's actually quite
harmful for a person who doesn't quite understand the mental issues that someone else is
going through to respond to with them, you know, And he kind of
gaslights her at times. He's kind of like trying to get her to minimize
things. And it wasn't again, it wasn't shown to be like, look,
how evil Harvey is to her, so he belongs everything that's happening to
him. But I think it was a way of showing that Harvey is getting
so wrapped up and everything else that's going on to him, that part of
his fall is that he's really neglecting the emotional needs of his wife and of
that part of his life. And I still think a lot of that is
true and a lot of that still works. But knowing that some of that
at least was an act, because like you know, she would say like
Harvey, I really need to leave, and then a little while later the
holiday holiday would kill someone. It was like sort of like, Okay,
you gave me one character and then showed me that that character was kind of
a shadow for the real character, and that's but I really love that first
character you gave us, and this was a little sad that that it wasn't
taken away, but it definitely was Like going back and watching it now,
I think I'm gonna have a lot less sincerity of what Gilda is putting out,
you know, And I'm a little bummed about that, even though it
still makes her a great twist. I hear you. I did just watch
it for the second time, and I'll say, I don't feel like she
was putting on an act, you know, Like I do think you know,
when she was at one point she's like under police protection or whatever,
and she's like, you know, I think she's like, oh, I
have to go do this, I have to go to this, and and
they're like no, no, no, but you know, we can't leave
you alone or whatever. And I think, like I feel like she's both
of those people though, you know, like I think as holiday, she's
not like there's no personality there, right, She's she's just going and doing
a thing. And I I get you that it feels like, you know,
you've taken this very specific character and then added this other thing that um
feels sort of I mean, it definitely doesn't let the first character just be
just that right, right, and and and so I feel you there.
Um, But at this point I think it's also just the normal representation stuff
we talk about of If there hadn't been so few of that first kind character,
I probably wouldn't mind in they were yours much right, yeah, where
it's like it's like, oh, we finally get you know, a representation
of this. It is also a serial killer on holidays, Okay, okay,
you know, but yeah, but it still was a great twist,
and I think that's part of why. Also I didn't see it coming is
because yeah, the scene where she's with those cops and wants to get off
by herself, I think it's probably a lot more suspicious than I gave it
credit for. Yeah yeah, yeah. And then also it's just like from
a storytelling perspective, um, it's like, why is this story giving her
so much room? You know? Um, I think it's great that it
does, and I think it would be great if a story where she wasn't
the killer did that. But typically, you know, a comic book story
isn't going to focus on you know, the depressed wife of the like third
protagonist. You know, like that's that's a that's an unusual choice, and
and so to me that probably popped out as well as like an instant like
well, who's she? Like, you know, like what is? What
is? Why is she in this story so much? Which isn't? I
don't mean like it would be a bad choice otherwise, I think it would
be a great choice. Otherwise it would be very interesting, but um,
but it just would be an unusual one. It's it's I wouldn't expect storytellers
to go to that those lengths. And I think in some ways you actually
made my point even better than I was making it, and also helped me
understand how we see the movie a little differently because to me, Harvey dent
On the main character of this, like I see it primarily about here,
And part of that's because I've always been so fascinated with his story, So
maybe that's what I glom onto most. But You're right, I thought it
was so interesting and so different that they were giving us her story. Yeah,
and I want to I wish we saw more of that, and so
that was part of also, I think be like, oh, that's why
you gave us her story, not just because you think it's interesting. Okay,
that's fine. Yeah, yeah, And I do feel like they thought
it was interesting enough to be actually the I mean, in another way,
she's the main character, right. Yeah. It's like, sure, it's
called Batman The Long Halloween, and a lot of it focuses on, you
know, Harvey Dent and him becoming two Face, but like it's a story
about serial killer, right, and she's like, in some way, the
villain is always the star, right, And I wouldn't I wouldn't even call
her a villain, you know, but she's she's definitely the serial killer,
you know, she's the one, you know who done it, and um,
and so yeah, I think, uh, you know, I would.
I would love to see something similar that's a mystery that also has characters
who you wouldn't expect to be as well fleshed out as well fleshed out as
she is, who are actually then red herrings, you know. And it's
like that's all the when you do a mystery, you can take any character
and make them a big deal either because they are with a number of members
of Falconi's family, right exactly, you know, and they none of them
I felt got quite as much, but a lot of them got way more
than they would in a story that was just, you know, an action
story. This wasn't an action story. It was it was a mystery that
had action in it, right, I think you're right, all right,
Well, just a couple of last things I wanted to touch on and hear
from you as well before you wrap up. I was really impressed with with
the voice casting Jensen Eccles, who is most known for Supernatural and now for
the Boys. He's the voice of Batman, and I thought he was very
good. And it's also interesting because like when we people talk about who are
the Batman, you know, who are the people who played Batman? Actually
never heard his name mentioned in the in the conversation, I think because this
is much smaller. Um. The only little I love having Katie sack Off,
who people know from Battles for Galactica and some other things is poison Ivy
and some other great people and as Bokatan. Yeah yeah, yeah, very
much so. The only thing that like, I thought it was good of
voice acting, but it just kind of like rubbed me a little bit the
wrong way. But again, I focus on these things a lot. Nya
Rivera who a lot of people know from Glee, where she really got her
start. Unfortunately has passed away. She was the voice of Selina Kyle of
Catwoman, which I thought was great. Naya is Latina or Nya Someone's dead?
You say was or is? I say it was? And yeah,
you know, I say died violently in by drowning, not passed away,
but you know, yeah it's me. Oh yeah, Um, Naya was
Latina and quite dark skinned and sort of have her voice acting a much lighter
skin Selena Kyle I didn't love, but I also know that like we're still
going very slowly on that kind of thing, so fair enough. Um.
But yeah, other than that, I really love the voice acting and I
thought you're right, the animation was just absolutely gorgeous. Yeah. Um,
I mean the first one, at least the first one was dedicated to her,
as she died sometime between recording the voice and um doing the what's it
called? H oh and the and the release of the movie. It's like,
yeah, quite tragically too. Yeah. Um yeah, I mean in
terms of I don't know, it's it's interesting because it's like that's also kind
of the um the opposite of like if you have you know, a white
actor playing a character with with darker skin like that also is going to be
Um, I don't know. I guess what I'm trying to say is I
think that this is probably less problematic than that. And um, it's possible
that they basically had the animation and then they cast her, you know,
right that make Yeah, that would make some sense. But yeah, I
thought she was a very good catwoman regardless. Um. And I did feel
that, um, who was it. I felt like Jensen Accles was kind
of trying to do with Kevin Conroy without like trying to do a Kevin Conroy
impersonation. I wondered the first people was Conroy because it sounded kind It definitely
sounded like that strong gruff, giving very little emotion, but not quite there.
Yeah, And I would say, um, you know, I don't
want someone to do an impersonation, but to me, this kind of hit
the sweet spot of feeling like it was in the spirit of the Kevin Conroy
batman without being like I'm going to try and impersonate Kevin Conroy. Um yeah,
yeah, And and overall I did think the voice acting was excellent and
the yeah, but but the the animation was just uh on, I feel
like it's on another level from a lot of the other animation um that we
see from you know, um, especially Disney, I guess, particularly in
terms of like Star Wars, you know. I mean there's things in the
Star Wars animation that I think are great, like it's the settings and stuff,
but in terms of the characters themselves, like this, it feels more
to me like a comic book um that moves you know. Yeah, I
think it's very good. Yeah, it ruined me that way of us eat
the Spider Verse. Yeah, a very different styles. Any other last things
you wanted to bring up? Coorey wrap up? Uh? Yeah, There's
there's one more line from Gilda at the end where she says, in the
end, I loved him talking about Harvey, but not all of him.
And I feel like that kind of parallels some of the Bruce and Selena relationship
where because they're like actually together, there are a couple and Catwoman knows who
Batman is, but then they're not a couple, and it's like they clearly
can't really make it work, but they kind of try, and then then
it doesn't work, and then it does and you know, there are two
more stories that follow this in the same Comics continuity. One is called Catwoman
when in Rome, and the other one's Batman Dark Victory, and the latter
I think is like a Dick Grayson Robin origin, which I think would be
really interesting to see, like handled in the same kind of on the same
level as as this. And I would really like to see the Catwoman one
in Rome, which is she like takes a trip to Rome to try and
find out what's up with you know her, I guess mostly her mom because
m Falconi is dead now here, um and yeah, and it looks like
it's like a week and you know whatever. But unfortunately, you'd have to
get a different voice actress, mostly unfortunately because you know, someone died and
that sucks, right, But it would be nice to see like a Catwoman's
story that's like, this is a Catwoman's story. You know that's not the
halle Berry movie. Yeah, yeah, because it is that same story from
the Batman of Falconi. Was her father right exactly? And she she says
a name at the very end, which I think is supposed to be the
point that that's Cleena Kyle's mother's name. Yeah, she does even know her
brother's name. Yeah, I think he says Luisa. And when she's at
the very end, she's trying to save Sophia, which is I guess her
half sister or sister, and she's like Sophia and then Sophia like let's go
and falls to her death. But it feels almost like they know each other,
you know, like she knows her. Yeah, which was just an
interesting, like just little thing for sure, for sure, Yeah, a
couple of little things. I loved. The Joker at one point makes a
comment that why he has to, like why he's so invested in the holiday
story is that he, like Batman, loves a good puzzle, right,
which is I've never really heard it expressed quite that way, but I really
like that is that something that binds the two of them together. Early on
we talked about how kind of like this is about Batman kind of learning how
to do the stuff he does, especially detective work. There's a scene where
it's pretty clear and Gordon actually says this that he doesn't use the words good
cop, back cop, but but he basically was like, I thought we
had a thing where we were gonna like bluff the violence, and then and
Gordon does the like, yeah, I hope you answer me or else I
can't do with Batman. Yeah, and then Batman there's like does no,
no, dude, it was a bluff. It was a bluff. We
kid, It's like I thought we were doing a bit here. Yeah,
it was really good. And I also just like, I haven't actually seen
this much since the original Godfather, and I think it's very much a reference.
Actually, no, it's in Good Fellows where there no forgive me.
This is a bit that I haven't seen since Good Fellas, and then Good
Fellows did it in reference to the Godfather, but in both of them there's
a scene where the mobsters are like making a spaghetti sauce that's really great.
Oh yeah, And so having Falconi make a reference to how like you have
to get the basil just when it's really fresh to like make the good sauce,
I was like, oh I love that, thank you. Yeah,
it just really made me want to eat some pasta with some like red peppers,
like and you know, yeah, definitely we're gonna do now is we're
doing for most of the year, is we're gonna wrap up, We're gonna
give the outro, and then there's gonna be a bonus section where we talk
a little bit more about the episode and other things we'd recommend, which if
you're a Patreon you get to find out about and so Paul, before I
go into all that, for polks who are following you, what do you
want them to know? I'm Zen Madman in all the places on Twitch,
Twitter, YouTube, I've started coaching, writing and creating again, and details
and all that are available on my website, Zenmadman dot com. Like Matthew,
I'm also launching a Patreon and support there will help me spend more of
my time making stuff for folks. So if you're heading over to support the
Ethical Panda, which you absolutely should do, feel free to stop buy mine
afterwards. That's awesome. I'm really glad to hear you're getting those things started.
And as Paul said, you can find both of us now on Patreon.
I'm the Ethical Panda, Paul is Zen Madman, and I know on
Zen Madman and get a lot of great stuff right here. If you do
sign up to be a patron pretty much any level, you'll get to have
the bonus content that we're about to do. We've been having a lot of
fun making those, so really hope you get to check those out. But
for everyone who's going to be stopping here, as you know, the best
way to find us on all the places is the Ethical Panda. You can
find us on Facebook, Twitter, TikTok. Twitter and TikTok are the main
ones have been focusing on lately, but we do have a discord. We
do have a Facebook page and depending on content and generation, I'd be happy
to make more things there. So let us know what you think. This
is not a movie a lot of people have seen, but if you have
seen it, would love to hear it. If you haven't, what do
you think about it? You know, wanting to watch it or what do
you think about all the questions we raised about you know, this new idea
of who two Face could be or how you know two faces origin story or
holiday and who holiday could be and the mystery and what Batman decided to do
at the end. Would love to hear your feedback and thoughts. The Ethical
Panda, Twitter, TikTok, Facebook, all those places, and the best
way to find all that is going to be in the show notes or if
you go to our website, the Ethical Panda dot com. There you'll find
all the continent information you'll find information about all the other podcasts we're doing.
We've been doing episode bay episode coverage of The Bad Batch. We have a
great episode coming out on the Last of Us with Danielle written in the Star
Wars who's a huge fan of that show, and he's going to have a
She's played through the whole video game I have not so have a great conversation
about that. That'll be here on this podcast coming soon. All that's going
to be up on the website. So thank you so much for listening.
If you're a patron, then we will have more for you in just a
second. For everybody else, have a great day.