WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:04.559 Hello, Welcome to this episode of the Superhero Ethics podcast. Today we're talking 2 00:00:04.599 --> 00:00:09.560 about a Batman animated story that appeared on HBO, an animated movie based on 3 00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:14.320 a lot of people's favorite comic run of Batman The Long Halloween. This story, 4 00:00:14.359 --> 00:00:17.480 you can see origins of the Dark Night in you can see origins of 5 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:21.199 the Batman with Robert Pattinson and Paul Happy and I are gonna be diving into 6 00:00:21.199 --> 00:00:35.039 it right after this commercial break. We have no control over. Welcome back. 7 00:00:35.079 --> 00:00:37.880 This is Matthew host. They then pronounced and Paul, this is a 8 00:00:37.960 --> 00:00:41.520 story that I know you have wanted to talk about for a while, Batman 9 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:45.039 The Long Halloween. And just give a quick explanation for folks. This is 10 00:00:45.079 --> 00:00:48.880 an animated movie you can find on I think it's an HBO plus primarily, 11 00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:53.320 there may be other ways to get DC movies. DC Animation has been putting 12 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:57.880 out a ton of animated movies, primarily about Batman, some about Superman, 13 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:00.600 some about more of the Justice League in general. They aren't they talked about 14 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:03.880 much, but that Paul has really turned me on too. We've been having 15 00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:07.120 a lot of fun going through them, and we're gonna really have a lot 16 00:01:07.159 --> 00:01:10.760 to talk about because it raises some of the fundamental questions of Batman and the 17 00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:14.159 Batman's stories. And we'll tell you more about what the story is in a 18 00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:15.000 second, but first, Paul, let me just have as an intro, 19 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:19.120 tell me more about like why it was that you loved the story and why 20 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:22.799 you wanted to be one we talked about, Yeah, so I don't really 21 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:27.799 follow like what's coming out when and stuff like that, but when when Lee 22 00:01:27.879 --> 00:01:33.040 and I were at her mom's last year, you know, kind of in 23 00:01:33.079 --> 00:01:37.799 the middle of moving we technically didn't really live anywhere for like about a month, 24 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:41.599 you know, and we were on our way to Vegas. We were, 25 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:47.920 you know, browsing HBO Max and we're like, oh, there's this 26 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:49.239 is out. You know, maybe she actually knew it was out because she 27 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:55.599 like reads things in the news and whatever, but right, but so we 28 00:01:56.159 --> 00:01:57.840 just put it on and watched it and it was like, oh, this 29 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:00.159 this is really good. And then it was like, wait, that was 30 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:05.239 part one, and then then there's like a part two, and we watch 31 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:08.599 the part two, which you know, conveniently actually came out the same day, 32 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:15.199 which seems like it's interesting that they broke it into into two parts, 33 00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:17.240 and I guess we could talk about that a little later, but basically, 34 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:23.479 you know, it's it's kind of like a three hour animated movie that covers 35 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:25.719 the span of a year, you know, from Halloween to Halloween. And 36 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:32.879 I just think it's the type of Batman's story that is like my favorite type 37 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:39.439 of Batman's story and is fairly different from a large amount of you know, 38 00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:46.360 other superhero fiction that we see on screen. And and then just the animation 39 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:52.080 I think is fantastic, and in terms of story, I think DC's animation 40 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:57.719 is overall, like, on average, the best stuff they put out on 41 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:02.439 screen, you know, compared to say television non animated, and then like 42 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:07.879 live action films. I think a large part of that is because the bar 43 00:03:08.120 --> 00:03:12.199 is so much lower in a weird way, and that they're not having to 44 00:03:13.039 --> 00:03:15.680 have this constant like first of all, the budget is much lower, so 45 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:17.240 they don't need to justify the huge budget, they don't need to have a 46 00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:22.360 huge mass market appeal. And just I think in some ways these movies that 47 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:25.360 are really helped by mostly flying under the radar screen because they're not therefore in 48 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:29.960 the you know, well, how does this compare to the other version of 49 00:03:29.960 --> 00:03:31.800 Batman. How does this compare to the Marvel movie that's coming out at the 50 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:37.000 same time, How does this tie in all these things? It just gets 51 00:03:37.039 --> 00:03:39.400 to be a story on its own in a really great way. Yeah, 52 00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:43.319 And I mean I think this is what you're saying. But in terms of 53 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:46.520 the bar being lower, I think you mostly mean like, well, like 54 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:53.199 financially right in terms of like how much money something gross is. And I 55 00:03:53.240 --> 00:03:58.919 mean, I guess in terms of as I said, the bar is low, 56 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:02.599 not quite an I mean it's more that like the expect the outside expectations 57 00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:05.680 that don't really have much to do with the movie itself are mostly not there, 58 00:04:06.199 --> 00:04:12.919 right, and certainly the you know, broader population doesn't have expectations for 59 00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:15.600 what, you know, the thing's going to look like. I do think 60 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:23.879 that there are a lot of people who are really into animation DC, and 61 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:29.000 you know specifically animated DC that you know, occasionally something comes along and is 62 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:33.000 highly anticipated and is very disappointing to most people, like say the Killing Joke, 63 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:39.319 which I recently watched a thing about it and I was like, I 64 00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:42.240 was like, I feel like like they're saying things about the animation and like, 65 00:04:42.279 --> 00:04:46.199 I think the animation was fantastic. Like the the story. You know, 66 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:48.879 there's you know, you can have your issues with the story, sure, 67 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:55.519 you know, and in terms of how it was adapted precisely. But 68 00:04:55.519 --> 00:04:59.639 but yeah, I mean, I think the expectations are amongst a smaller group 69 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:02.600 of people, bow I would say, and you just don't have the same 70 00:05:02.759 --> 00:05:09.639 amplitude of you know, the types of reviews that you're going to get and 71 00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:16.319 the types of responses. So I think generally that's like healthier for anything someone's 72 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:20.600 creating right where it's just like, yeah, you you get to do your 73 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:24.160 thing. You get to say this is what we want to do, you 74 00:05:24.199 --> 00:05:27.240 do it the best you can, and then people will take it as they 75 00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:30.839 do, as opposed to you know, having huge expectations. You know, 76 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:34.959 it's like a team that wins a championship and then the next year, you 77 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:39.639 know if if they're like the runner up, then that's a disappointment somehow. 78 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:42.680 You know. It's like I feel like that's how how feature films or like 79 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:46.040 blockbusters are often treated. It's like, oh, well, is this a 80 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:48.439 disappointment compared to such and such. It's like why why is that? Even 81 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:53.079 the conversation you know, it's just like can't can't the thing just like live 82 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:55.399 on its own, like is this good? Is it not good? Do 83 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:57.920 what you do? Like it? Do not like it? And so I 84 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:01.600 I that's my very long winded way of saying yes, I agree that I 85 00:06:01.639 --> 00:06:11.160 feel like this animation manages to not be a victim of expectations. And I 86 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:15.399 think one part of that may be that this is a lot more kind of 87 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.480 day in the life aspect. This is we talked about on the last podcast 88 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:21.240 a little bit in terms of dread. Well, I'm not sure what orders 89 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:25.439 would come out in It's where the Good Cart dread, but not even day 90 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:28.680 in the life, but like a year in the life, a year in 91 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:33.360 the life. But also this is not part of a very fixed continuity, 92 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:38.439 and I think in some ways that really helps it, because like I love 93 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:42.360 the MCU, I do like continuity. But I think part of what has 94 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:45.879 gotten away from is and I think in some way it's like the age of 95 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:47.319 the Internet makes this harder. But like there used to be a lot of 96 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:53.800 stories where it was Okay, we know who these characters are, and because 97 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:58.120 we're going to tell you a story that isn't about a fundamentally change moment in 98 00:06:58.120 --> 00:07:01.240 this character's life. It's just kind of about like the character doing the thing 99 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:03.959 the character does, and a lot of other characters doing the things that those 100 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:09.879 characters do. It's okay that we don't know exactly where this fits in time 101 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:12.879 compared to this other version of the story, or if it a little bit 102 00:07:12.920 --> 00:07:16.560 contradicts that version of the story. It's just kind of a standalone story using 103 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:20.160 characters that we know. Well. I think that's very hard to do in 104 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:25.879 the MCU or like you know, in the in DC now we have to 105 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:29.279 have long conversations about like, well, the Robert Pattinson Batman doesn't exist in 106 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:31.600 the same universe as like the Snyder Verse or like this other thing, and 107 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:36.839 we have specific about it because the animation has never been trying to be part 108 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:41.519 of one whole, unified universe. Like, yes, this movie does tell 109 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:45.199 the Hardy down to origin story, and it does tell the death of Falcone, 110 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:49.560 but it also doesn't it doesn't make pretensions to sort of be like a 111 00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:54.720 definitive story that everything else has to reference. And I think that really helps 112 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:58.839 it just be its own thing. Yeah, I agree. I do think 113 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:03.879 that there are basically there are like runs of comics, right, which will 114 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:09.040 have continuity with each other, and then often they'll have some giant multiverse thing 115 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:15.160 that's like okay, sure whatever that like theoretically connects all of them, like 116 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:22.480 I think DC has like fifty two universes exactly. But you'll get so, 117 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:26.240 you know, and with the animated movies, you you got a series of 118 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:30.160 them that you know, there was this one run of them that I didn't 119 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:31.480 love them, you know, but they were kind of all in the same 120 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:35.960 style, and they kind of all had a continuity. And then there's like 121 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:39.559 the flashpoint story and then you know, then it kind of reverts and then 122 00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:45.080 they just start making a new continuity, right, And so you you do 123 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:48.720 get these kind of series, but I don't think there's ever this sense of 124 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:54.000 this is the you know, definitive version of these characters, right. It's 125 00:08:54.440 --> 00:09:00.320 it's like this series of interpretations and you know, this story as as you 126 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:05.799 mentioned, the Dark Night borrowed from it, the Batman borrows from it, 127 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:11.960 right, quite heavily. I mean I think I somewhat jokingly referred to the 128 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:16.679 Batman movie as the short Halloween, because yes, right, it has so 129 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:20.159 much from this, but it's a week instead of a year, which for 130 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:24.840 a for a live action feature film, I think a week or a day 131 00:09:24.919 --> 00:09:28.200 or two or three days. I find usually the perfect length of time. 132 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:33.240 I think really extended movies don't work that well. The reason this works well 133 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:41.399 to me is that you know, the principal plot revolves around holiday this like 134 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:50.159 person who murders people on holidays, and each scene or each sequence, basically 135 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:52.960 the movies are broken up into segments that are each kind of like one day, 136 00:09:54.440 --> 00:09:58.399 right, and it'll be just a series of holidays. So it's basically 137 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:03.200 like twelve days play to cross three hours. So you essentially maybe get twelve 138 00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:07.279 fifteen minute segments more or less. A couple of them are shorter, right, 139 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:13.279 But yeah, I think the fact that there isn't this weight of continuity 140 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:18.159 on this really lets it breathe more and lets them One of the things I 141 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:22.279 really enjoyed here is that they have so many members of the Rogues Gallery in 142 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:26.240 it, right, and they're able to be bit players and you can kind 143 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:30.559 of do whatever you want with them, and it doesn't feel like, oh, 144 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:33.639 but that's not that character. It's like, no, that's this version 145 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:37.679 of that character. And if I didn't like any of the versions of them, 146 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:39.440 like it wouldn't have felt like such a big deal. I didn't really 147 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:41.960 dislike any of the versions of them, particularly, you know, there's just 148 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:46.519 a few things about like, well, why is Ivy like always working for 149 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:50.200 someone else? She's like the most powerful of all these people and whatever, 150 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:52.600 you know, Like so she doesn't have the depth that I'd like to see 151 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:58.240 in her character. But like that's okay, because this isn't like the Poison 152 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:00.879 Ivy. It's like, it's just Poison Ivy in the one thing, and 153 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:03.480 she's a small part of it, and like that's fine. And there's a 154 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:05.919 lot of characters like the Joker, you know, similarly, is this kind 155 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:11.039 of minor character in this story that just it makes it feel like it's Gotham. 156 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:15.440 It makes it feel like there's this depth and there's this breadth without feeling 157 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:18.480 like it's trying to be the defining version of anything. And I just find 158 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:22.759 that really pleasant. I think that's a really good way to put it. 159 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:24.679 And it kind of addresses something you and I've always talked about, which is 160 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:31.440 that the part of the problem with these larger, interconnected universes is that it 161 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:33.919 doesn't make sense that a whole bunch of people never show up. And yet, 162 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:37.679 you know, if you have a story where it would make sense for 163 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:39.759 Captain America to show up for five minutes, but you don't have the budget 164 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:43.000 for Christopher Evans to do, you know, four days of shooting to get 165 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:46.720 hit those five minutes, it's hard to make it happen. But here you 166 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:50.679 can do that. And I will fill in the details of what the actual 167 00:11:50.679 --> 00:11:56.200 story is in a second, but it's it's as Paul said, there's a 168 00:11:56.240 --> 00:12:00.720 stuff that's happening, and so at various points in time, different characters make 169 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:05.720 appearances, and in many cases it makes sense why they're showing up for various 170 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:07.399 reasons or another, as you said, some less something, it's just because 171 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:09.759 someone involved has hired them. And it's like, oh, okay, that's 172 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:15.519 fine. But the Joker was of my favorites because the Joker, Like, 173 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:16.919 the minute the Joker shows up, a part of me thinks, oh, 174 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:20.840 okay, so this is actually a Joker plot on some level, and it's 175 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:24.720 like, no, the Jokers just mad that this other, this other villain 176 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:28.519 is getting so much of the headlines and attention. So the Joker's like, 177 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:30.799 no, I gotta try and fix this. I gotta try to make it 178 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:35.559 all about me exactly. It literally winds up just like gas attacking a thing 179 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:37.039 that half the city is going to be at, because this is the Joker 180 00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:39.799 says like, Yeah, there's a fifty percent chance that one of the random 181 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:43.759 people I kill will be this this guy. And then that way I don't 182 00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:48.720 have losing the attention. And it fits so perfectly for the Joker, and 183 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:50.279 it gives Batman a chance to deal with a Joker, but it isn't a 184 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:54.799 Joker story and Joker doesn't take over the story. Yeah, totally. And 185 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:58.240 yeah, and it just does that with a whole lot of characters, right, 186 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:01.440 Yeah. Do you want to try giving a brief summary of the story 187 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:03.360 and so that we can like kind of fill things and as we go, 188 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:05.960 or do you want me to try and do that. Yeah, I'll I'll 189 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:11.159 give a brief summary first of all, just in terms of the feel of 190 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:13.360 the story. I want to say that like it's a story where Batman does 191 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:18.879 Batman things, but it doesn't really feel like it's a story about Batman doing 192 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:22.720 Batman things. You know, like like big you know, gadgety like huge 193 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:26.120 fight scenes and stuff like that's in there, but that's not the focus. 194 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:31.720 It's really it's a mystery detective story, and it's also less of a story 195 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:37.120 about Batman being a great detective and more about Batman becoming a great detective. 196 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:43.600 And the basic premise is Carmine Falcone is like the big mob boss in the 197 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:48.600 city. And then there's also Maroney, right, who's like its main competition. 198 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:56.000 And someone kills Falconi's nephew on Halloween, who actually was about to testify 199 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:05.480 against Alconi, right against Carmine, and so the the whole thing has this 200 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:13.799 you know, Harvey Dent, James Gordon, Batman, you know trio of 201 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:18.799 characters doing that whole dark night trying to bring down the Gotham mob, right, 202 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:28.120 which is like this very traditional mafia situation, And throughout basically throughout the 203 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:33.159 year, on every holiday or on one holiday per month, basically somebody comes 204 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:39.799 and kills someone, usually part of Falcone's crime family, right, or family 205 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:45.879 actually not even they kill someone who's who's not really part of the crime family, 206 00:14:45.879 --> 00:14:48.480 who he doesn't want to be part of the crime family. But so 207 00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:54.679 it feels like it's this you know, something against Falcone. Right. Meanwhile, 208 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:01.679 there are all of these you know, costumed villains locked up in Arkham, 209 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:07.039 and at various points, various ones of them get free, right, 210 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:13.200 And actually I would say that this is the story of if you look at 211 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:16.039 kind of the over story, the overarching thing, this is the story of 212 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:22.960 how Gotham goes from being you know, basically like a mobbed up town to 213 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:28.559 a costumed villain town. Yeah. And there's a clear distinction between the two 214 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:31.840 in a way that's really interesting, especially in the respective of in some ways, 215 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:35.360 the traditional kind of like you find him in any you know, Godfather, 216 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:39.360 Goodfellows movie, criminals are a lot worse or a lot scarier in some 217 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:45.159 ways, right, exactly. And the I think also like you could kind 218 00:15:45.159 --> 00:15:50.240 of look at it in the like D and D alignment sort of fashion, 219 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:52.799 where it's like, you know, you've got Harvey Dent and James Gordon, 220 00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:58.799 who are trying to be lawful good, right, and then you have organized 221 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:03.600 crime, which is awful evil. And then you have you know, the 222 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:07.600 Joker and people like the Joker, which is like chaotic evil. And then 223 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:11.360 you have Batman, who's like chaotic good. But everybody's kind of trying to 224 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.600 work with someone else to further their own ends, and you know Catwoman, 225 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:19.840 who's chaotic. Catwoman who's like somewhere chaotic neutral, a chaotic good exactly, 226 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:25.279 and like, yeah, in this she's more of you know, she's more 227 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:30.320 basically just like an anti hero like Batman. You know, there are a 228 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:37.519 lot of similarities between this Catwoman and the Batman Catwoman. And you know, 229 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:41.039 at the end of it, not not to give away necessarily the final story, 230 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:45.200 because I feel like we could kind of cover this without saying, you 231 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:49.279 know, who what the actual answer to the mystery is, but it's basically, 232 00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:52.840 you know, there's a serial killer, and it's about Batman and others 233 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:56.960 trying to figure out who that is while all this other stuff goes on at 234 00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.279 the same time. Right, Yeah, I think I think it's some point 235 00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:02.879 I do want to say who it is, because I think there's some really 236 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:06.160 interesting questions around that that gets into some of the things, but we can 237 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:07.480 have kind of like that will be on a spoiler section later. Okay, 238 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:11.519 that sounds good for sure, because yeah, I think you're right. I 239 00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:12.799 want to talk about you some of the different parts of it that I most 240 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:15.680 enjoyed and the questions it kind of raises. You know, it's funny we're 241 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:19.240 talking about this. This will probably come out a couple of weeks after our 242 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:25.240 episode on Dread. We have recorded it very recently. After recording the episode 243 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:29.839 on Dread, the movie about I wanted to say Judge Dread about the Stalone 244 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:34.640 version. This is the urban version. But the movie deals with a lot 245 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:38.480 of the same issues that does, and it's questions that are very central to 246 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:42.359 what I love about Batman in general, which is all these questions around like, 247 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:48.359 Okay, when you've got a broken justice system and it's almost impossible to 248 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:52.200 fight the criminal elements because of that broken justice system, and that gets an 249 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:55.920 all sorts of sociological analysis to be sure, but like what do you do? 250 00:17:56.359 --> 00:17:59.640 And I remember I said at one point as I was watching the movie, 251 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:03.240 oh, this is going to be the Dark Knight, because it is 252 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:07.880 set at the beginning while Harvey Dent is still Harvey Dent before anything has happened 253 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:11.519 to him, and it's Harvey and Gordon fighting with each other about how to 254 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:15.279 best take down these mobsters at a time when neither one of the two of 255 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:18.559 them trusts each other, and Batman trying to get in the middle and them 256 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:23.039 having these interesting conversations about how do we deal with like to what extent can 257 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:26.839 we break the law or can we cross lines in order to take down these 258 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:30.680 people from whom there are no lines and there are no laws, And that 259 00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:33.160 part it's very much the Dark Knight story. And then as it continues, 260 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:37.480 you see that it's kind of the Dark Knights story and the Batman Robert Pattinson's 261 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:41.279 story all kind of mixed up together at least that both of those are drawn 262 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:45.119 from this right exactly. So it feels that way when you watch this after 263 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:48.400 seeing those, but it's like, oh, those just actually extracted these particular 264 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:53.519 things from this story. And so I want to start there with what was 265 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:57.519 your take on because certainly, I think, for one thing, it shows 266 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:03.480 the slow, slow descent of Harvey Dent. Like I love The Dark Knight, 267 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:04.400 don't get me wrong, and I thought the actor who played him was 268 00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:08.720 fantastic. Aeron Extein, I think it is eart, but it shows it 269 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:11.599 in a much slower way and a much more protractive Like you said, over 270 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:15.240 the course of a year, what did you think of Dent did his kind 271 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:21.880 of evolution of a story in this movie? I feel like this Dent has 272 00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:29.319 a little bit more room to develops. It's interesting because in terms of run 273 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:34.519 time, this is actually longer than The Dark Knight, right, which feels 274 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:37.559 like a pretty long movie. I think The Dark Knight is like two and 275 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:41.960 a half hours. I think that's faver take, right, and this is 276 00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:45.839 three hours, you know, but it's two one and a half hour animated 277 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:49.000 films or like one twenty five you know, a minute twenty five, minute 278 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:55.720 twenty seven or an hour twenty five. Sorry, So it feels like there's 279 00:19:55.839 --> 00:20:00.480 more room for some of those things to breathe here. Also, you know, 280 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:04.799 The Dark Night, like, I mean, I think Aaron Eckhart did 281 00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:11.759 a great performance of Harvey Dent and then two Face, but I mean Heath 282 00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:15.640 Ledger was just sucking up all the oxygen in the movie, you know, 283 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:19.799 Like like I'm not saying the Joker wasn't great in this, but the Joker 284 00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:23.599 doesn't dominate the story, you know, as we've discussed, and there are 285 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:26.559 a lot of characters here, and so I'm not even sure Dent gets more 286 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:30.799 screen time. But the fact that this has spread out over a year, 287 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:36.160 it just you know, so you get to kind of see these snapshots of 288 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:40.240 where Dent is at these different points in time, right, it kind of 289 00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:45.839 I'm not gonna go there was I was going to say something about the Last 290 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:48.599 Jedi, not the last Jed. Jesus, what am I talking about? 291 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:55.880 Um? I was gonna say something about Tales of the Jedi and how it 292 00:20:55.960 --> 00:21:00.279 developed a particular character over several instances. But if you had like twelve instances 293 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:03.960 there, maybe it would have felt different. Right, And so here it's 294 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:08.279 like you get these little snapshots of where Harvey is at different points in time, 295 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:15.799 and for me, that really sells it because it lets there be this 296 00:21:15.799 --> 00:21:22.279 this transformation that isn't just oh, you know, this one event happened and 297 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:26.400 now all of a sudden he's two faced, right, even though that was 298 00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:30.119 kind of in there, that was his nickname whatever, But like that one 299 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:33.880 kind of goes from like white night straight to like two face. And this 300 00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:40.240 feels like there's always this conflict in there. There's there's always some complexity to 301 00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:41.759 the character. We don't see all of it, right, it's not the 302 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:45.559 Harvey Dent story, but but that is a huge part of the story. 303 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:49.960 And they get to kind of have a little bit more of a slow burn 304 00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:53.720 with it, both because of runtime and because of the fact that it's like 305 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:59.759 the basically these like you know, this dozen snapshots throughout time, right. 306 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:03.200 And I think one reason why it really works is that, as you said, 307 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:07.119 it's not just the one moment it does. There's a lot of having 308 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:10.200 to do with his family. But more than anything, instead of thinking about 309 00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:17.039 him losing someone, it's about it's really about cynicism and pragmatism and him starting 310 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:21.319 out is this because one of the first kind of major conflicts is they come 311 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:25.720 a bunt. They come across a whole pile of you know, Falconi's money 312 00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:30.160 and like literally just like stacks of cash, and they're trying to decide what 313 00:22:30.279 --> 00:22:32.319 to do with it. And one of the things they realize is if they 314 00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:34.079 go by the books, if they follow the law and what they're supposed to 315 00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:38.319 do, of like turning it in, there's a very good chance that Falconi 316 00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:41.160 is going to intercept that at some point and get it back because the whole 317 00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:47.039 system is so corrupt. And Catwoman is kind of there and winds up suggesting 318 00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:51.000 what they wind up doing, which is burning it, which is very illegal. 319 00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:55.680 And you can tell that like Dent is the one who winds up coming 320 00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:57.200 around to that position, but you can see that he's wrestling with it and 321 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:02.160 that from that and then as you said, it's almost a year later that 322 00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:04.799 he gets you know, attacked and has his face burned away, this time 323 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:08.319 with acid. Unless he winds up becoming too face. You just get to 324 00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:12.920 see his sort of gradual. To me, it's such a fundamental question that 325 00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:17.519 hits for all of us because it's about lack of faith in a system. 326 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:19.799 You know, he starts out as the character who most thinks, no matter 327 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:23.359 how much corruption there is, no matter how much goodness, how much badness 328 00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:27.240 there is, the law and the system of justice and the system of laws 329 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:32.359 will will work if we stick to it. And really the stories about his 330 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:36.480 just losing all faith in that, Yeah, and you know at the beginning, 331 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:40.559 Gordon's like, bend the rules, don't break them, but you know, 332 00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:45.319 and then they just they just break them right away. But but there's 333 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:48.440 this this wrestling with that right and this like you know, I mean, 334 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:55.799 he's a da like his whole career is I am going to use the law 335 00:23:56.279 --> 00:24:00.759 to you know, try And mostly it's specific this this one guy he seems 336 00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:06.880 to like really want to go hard against. But I think overall, he's 337 00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:12.400 you know, a true believer that that is the way or at least a 338 00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:18.039 way, if not the way of trying to to change things right. And 339 00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:22.079 you know, we're led to believe things have been quite bad and that there's 340 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:25.480 you know that this cynicism is is shared, you know, by most of 341 00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:30.960 the population, and I think, really, um, you know, it 342 00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:34.839 ends up kind of coming through that like, yeah, that maybe that's just 343 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:41.240 not gonna work. Um yeah, And you know, by the end of 344 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:45.119 it, there's a question like is I mean, is is any of it 345 00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:48.599 going to work? You know, is doing things not according to the system? 346 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:52.079 Does does that work? Like? You know, I mean, in 347 00:24:52.119 --> 00:24:56.480 that regard, it's almost a much less hopeful story than The Dark Knight is 348 00:24:56.519 --> 00:24:59.559 at least and he were talking about how The Dark Knight is about like the 349 00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:03.000 fall of Harvey Dent, because by the end of the Dark Night you certainly 350 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:07.960 get the perspective that there's this idea that, like a White Knight fall, 351 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:12.359 the White Knight didn't work, but that actually what Batman does does work and 352 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:17.240 will help and will turn around the city, even if it has to be 353 00:25:17.240 --> 00:25:19.319 done in away where no one understands what Batman's actually doing or that kind of 354 00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:22.359 thing, and then it gets really messy with a third movie, but there 355 00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:26.400 is I think an interest. To me, the end of the Dark Night 356 00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:30.440 movie is much more hopeful, whereas this one is like, Okay, well, 357 00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:34.480 like Batman, like Harvey Dent has been caught, it's been figured out 358 00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:37.920 who Holiday is, and that has its own ending. But I don't have 359 00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:41.440 any sense that like Batman has turned things around in the city in any way. 360 00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:45.279 Yeah, definitely not. Right at the end, Batman is there on 361 00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:51.000 the rooftop you know where the bat signal is with Gordon and two Face now, 362 00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:56.440 and he says something like was it worth it? And two Face says 363 00:25:56.839 --> 00:26:00.559 he wants to know whether the good guys won him, and Gordon's like, 364 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:03.839 yes, the good guys won, but we won't know for a very long 365 00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:10.119 time if it was worth it, which to me is like saying, yes, 366 00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:14.759 we won this battle in terms of we achieved the goal of taking down 367 00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:21.240 Carbine Falcone, right, but we won't know for a long time whether or 368 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:26.480 not that's going to make a positive difference for the city. Right. Yeah, 369 00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:29.160 I think that's a really good way to put it in that that was 370 00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:30.559 the exact language that was occurring to me of the battle versus the war, 371 00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:37.000 and it's it's part of a trend that I think I'm really appreciating because you 372 00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:41.400 know, we had like decades and decades of like, Batman is good, 373 00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:44.920 Batman is helping Gotham, and then you always had to wonder, like, 374 00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:48.480 so, why is Gotham so bad after so many decades of Batman doing this? 375 00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:52.160 But that's the timeline of comics. But then I think you started to 376 00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:56.319 get a lot of criticism of Batman starting about like ten years ago or so. 377 00:26:56.279 --> 00:26:59.759 That was like, well, but Batman's not actually helping. All that 378 00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.000 is doing is punching poor people, which I think there's some legitimacy of those 379 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:06.519 complaints, like why doesn't Batman spend his money to make the city better? 380 00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:07.960 I think he actually does in a lot of ways, and a lot of 381 00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:12.160 those stories don't. It's easy to sort of make that critique without realizing that 382 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:15.799 that's not quite accurate. But that's a whole other story. But I appreciate 383 00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:18.359 that, I think with some of the newer stories, and I think Pattinson's 384 00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:22.000 Batman definitely does this and this Batman does it as well. Instead of it 385 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:26.640 being attacking him himself. It's much more of a like, yeah, Batman 386 00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:30.640 is winning these individual battles, and he's saving people's lives by doing so, 387 00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:33.720 and he is stopping bad people by doing so, what is he winning the 388 00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:38.799 war? And I really appreciate that level. And I think in part that's 389 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:42.720 part of the self reflection that Pattinson is going through in the movie, and 390 00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:45.359 that by the end of that movie, he kind of is like, well, 391 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:51.480 maybe by giving hope instead of by giving fear, I can win the 392 00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:53.880 war in a different way. And I this movie doesn't get to that place 393 00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:56.480 of hope by the end, but I guess it sort of does with the 394 00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:00.880 Trick or Treaters. But I think I really like that about this movie, 395 00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:03.039 is that it's giving a chance for him to for him to win the battle, 396 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:06.839 but for him himself to say, like, I don't know if this 397 00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:11.000 is winning the war. Yeah, And you know, I think I have 398 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:17.400 a lot to say about those particular criticisms, and I I won't get too 399 00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:21.960 deep into it, but basically just I think it's always been or for a 400 00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:26.400 long time, I think it's been more complicated than that. But I do 401 00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:30.680 think, like you know, there's there's a thing in the like the very 402 00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:36.839 first scene is Falconi trying to get Bruce Wayne to sign on to doing some 403 00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:44.880 thing with him, some business thing because Falconi and um Thomas and Martha Wayne 404 00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:51.880 had like done some things like building some hospitals together or whatever that somehow, 405 00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:56.119 you know, maybe lent some legitimacy to like the Falconi name, right, 406 00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:03.200 but also like you know, built hospitals right like and and Bruce just responds, 407 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:07.480 you know, I believe in Gotham City. And at the end Falconi 408 00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:11.839 asks the same thing, He's like, do you still believe? And and 409 00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:15.799 Batman's like, I do you know? And I guess somehow he knows that's 410 00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:19.200 him. Um oh, because yeah, he basically tells him it's him because 411 00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:22.000 of the thing about the coin or whatever. There's there's like a line of 412 00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:27.400 dialogue that's shared um where he basically tells a dying Falconi that you know he's 413 00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:33.759 Bruce Wayne. And I think, um, and it I think there's this 414 00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:40.519 idea that like, like Batman does believe in in Gotham and like wants Gotham 415 00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:47.839 to be better, but that it's like that it's complicated and that I think 416 00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:56.839 there is some logic to the idea or some truth to the idea that like 417 00:29:56.079 --> 00:30:03.440 you you can't just ignore like violent crime, right, Like you can't just 418 00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:11.920 have people going around murdering people and then not do anything to try and make 419 00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:15.440 that happen less basically, right, But that also one of the main reasons 420 00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:19.480 that there is as much violent crime as there is or violence. I'm not 421 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:22.119 even gonna say crime, right. The reason there is as much violence as 422 00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:29.079 there is is partially because of resources and a lack of resources and the desperation 423 00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:33.400 that comes from having a lack of resources. And so you know, I 424 00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:37.720 think sometimes you get people saying, oh, we should only address this situation 425 00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:41.839 like in terms of like social programs, and then sometimes you get people saying, 426 00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:45.319 oh, we should only address this situation in terms of like, you 427 00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:52.440 know, really harsh policing. And I'm not arguing for the government doing both 428 00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:59.200 of those like exactly right, But what I'm saying is overall, like, 429 00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:06.480 I think you have to find ways to address both the urgent immediate right now, 430 00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:15.279 you know, somebody is suffering from violence and the ever present pressing issue 431 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:26.079 of there are resources are not being distributed adequately to everyone. Basically, yeah, 432 00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:27.279 I think that makes a lot of sense. And I think the way 433 00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:30.559 I've been kind of seeing it more and more, and I think you help 434 00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:33.759 me understand that the Batman, the Patentson movie kind of actually has some of 435 00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:40.400 this in it that I think if the view is we have this broken system, 436 00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:44.559 and as part of this broken system, people are getting hurt, people 437 00:31:44.599 --> 00:31:47.920 are getting killed, and bad people are doing bad things and getting away with 438 00:31:47.960 --> 00:31:52.680 them, and the phrase bad people there is very subjective, obviously, but 439 00:31:52.759 --> 00:31:59.839 that one thing that can be helpful is to have a person who is some 440 00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:05.000 times using violence as a way to protect people and to stop people from doing 441 00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:07.400 bad things. Maybe we'd just get rid of the whole idea of bad people 442 00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:10.319 in general, but just like stopping people from doing bad things and protecting people 443 00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:15.720 from bad things happening to them. And I think for too long the thought 444 00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:19.880 was if you do that enough, and if you punch the people who are 445 00:32:19.880 --> 00:32:22.319 doing the bad things hard enough, they'll stop doing the bad things and everything 446 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:25.319 will be better. And then the other side of the argument is banbill, 447 00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:30.519 but no, you're actually making things worse by punching the bad people and trying 448 00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:34.240 to save people. And I think the first point is clearly wrong. The 449 00:32:34.279 --> 00:32:37.079 second point, I think there's some truth too, but I think goes way 450 00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:38.519 too far, and at least what I'm coming down to it, I think 451 00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:43.440 you're coming to a similar place is like what Batman is doing is one necessary 452 00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:46.599 part of the equation. There also needs to be word like what Batman is 453 00:32:46.599 --> 00:32:50.559 doing is saying, we've got a bad system and people are being hurt and 454 00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:52.960 people are getting away with it, and I'm going to try and within that 455 00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:58.680 system, try and make those two things change. And I'm reflecting the fact 456 00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:04.119 that that those things in the system are a big part to me, that 457 00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:06.839 those things in the system are a big part of what it makes it hard 458 00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:10.200 to change the system. So that I'm hoping that my like protecting more people 459 00:33:10.599 --> 00:33:15.559 and stopping more people from doing bad things and maybe giving some people some hope 460 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:20.119 will create room for other people. And maybe I'll help or maybe I'll not. 461 00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:22.400 Maybe it's Bruce Wayne who'll do this to actually make the change happen. 462 00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:25.480 And it's kind of a V for Vendetta thing of like v can do all 463 00:33:25.480 --> 00:33:29.680 the violence to stop things, but it's the people who then have to like 464 00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:32.839 actually make the change and do the positive thing and I think what I'm coming 465 00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:37.119 down to is that kind of a place of like, I think Batman can't 466 00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:42.079 punch the system until it is better, but Batman can figure things out, 467 00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:45.200 do the detective work, do the fighting work, protect people, stop bad 468 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:50.599 things from happening, and and so doing making it possible for maybe him or 469 00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:52.240 maybe others to actually make the change. But that those have to be two 470 00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:55.160 kind of different things. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes a 471 00:33:55.200 --> 00:34:00.240 ton of sense, you know, and especially you know, I mean if 472 00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:07.400 Batman can stop the you know, stop people from causing harm to others without 473 00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:14.000 causing irrevocable harm to those people, right that are attempting to inflict the harm, 474 00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:15.719 like, you know, and that's sort of the you know, the 475 00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:19.519 difference between like lethal and non lethal. In in comic books, you have 476 00:34:19.559 --> 00:34:23.039 non lethal. In our world you have less lethal, right, less likely 477 00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:28.719 to be lethal, but like in terms of using that sort of violence as 478 00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:34.519 opposed to just killing everybody like the punisher would, right. And I think, 479 00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:37.760 you know, V for Vendett, is a great example because like V's 480 00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:40.119 not going to just take the mask off and then be someone who's like, 481 00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:46.239 you know, trying to help solve the other side of the equation, right, 482 00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:51.400 whereas Batman can take the mask off and pretend he's just Bruce Wayne, 483 00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:55.000 and then I probably do a lot of good in theory, you know. 484 00:34:57.039 --> 00:35:01.199 And I mean, of course, it's not like you can necessarily just use 485 00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:06.599 a bunch of money to change everything, but you know, money does help, 486 00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:13.199 and I think influence helps more. And yeah, I don't think this 487 00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:16.119 is a perfect example, and certainly it gets watered down over the many seasons 488 00:35:16.119 --> 00:35:20.159 in different directions it goes. But I think I'll ever Queen is a good 489 00:35:20.199 --> 00:35:22.480 example of how that can work, where at least in a CW show, 490 00:35:22.519 --> 00:35:25.119 and I think in some of the other versions as well. You know, 491 00:35:25.239 --> 00:35:30.880 the Arrow or the Green Arrow is doing that kind of Batman work, but 492 00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:35.519 then his other persona Oliver Queen is using his money and using his political influence 493 00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:39.400 to try and change the system and make the systemic changes so that it's not 494 00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:45.480 all the bad things that are happening. And I think in the patents in 495 00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:47.760 movie, I think we're starting to get there, especially in the way that 496 00:35:47.800 --> 00:35:51.800 movie ends. And so yeah, I would love to see more of that 497 00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:54.599 kind of thing. And which is again, let me actually back up your 498 00:35:54.639 --> 00:35:59.039 second because my point is I'm not saying that those are there for better than 499 00:35:59.079 --> 00:36:01.119 this. I'm saying what I like about this is I feel like it's much 500 00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:06.599 more honest about saying this is what Batman can do, and there's a whole 501 00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:09.440 lot he can't do. And that the reason why the ending of it is 502 00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:13.760 so beautiful is that it's Alfred who's kind of saying, like, no, 503 00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:16.559 but there is hope, Bruce, that what you're doing can create space for 504 00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:20.280 other people to do that. And the fact that the kids are going back 505 00:36:20.320 --> 00:36:22.800 trick or treating again is the proof of that in a really great way. 506 00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:29.000 Yeah, exactly exactly. Um, And and it does. There is a 507 00:36:29.079 --> 00:36:32.599 thing about you know, I think Batman saying like I think Batman, can 508 00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:37.840 you know, make a difference or something like that, or still he says 509 00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:39.400 something and then Alfred's like, I you know, I think the same is 510 00:36:39.400 --> 00:36:44.079 true of Bruce Wayne, right, And yeah, and yeah, the the 511 00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:46.559 you're right with the trick or treaters at the end, it does. Um 512 00:36:49.079 --> 00:36:52.599 it does have that that that feel of like, oh, maybe you know, 513 00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:57.119 maybe there is some some hope for the city. Basically, um. 514 00:36:58.760 --> 00:37:00.199 Yeah. I also, I think you talked about this at the very beginning 515 00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:04.519 in terms of what you liked about it, I think as part of that, 516 00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:08.400 it is so important that this is primarily not like the biggest thing Batman 517 00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:14.079 does is being a detective. He I don't think we ever see the Batmobile 518 00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:19.360 or like any kind of super We don't see much like super gadgets or like 519 00:37:19.719 --> 00:37:22.679 Batman doing all like the Great Toys, as Jack Lexon Joker calls it. 520 00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:27.800 Like, mostly what we see Batman do is is figuring out mysteries and occasionally 521 00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:30.679 winning fights when he needs to win fights. And I really like that because 522 00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:34.920 I think it also kind of highlights that, like, in many ways, 523 00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:37.719 the biggest thing that Batman can do is not just win fights with violence and 524 00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:42.559 cool toys and show off, but is can dig into the things no one 525 00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:45.400 else wants to dig into and figure things out. Yeah. Absolutely, I 526 00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:54.599 mean it's it's interesting because most of the story is about mobsters of one type 527 00:37:54.679 --> 00:38:01.840 or another, or various criminals right getting killed, or and cops and dash 528 00:38:02.039 --> 00:38:07.199 no our our das killed in this I mean, but I just mean that 529 00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:13.719 it's it's about Dent and his family as much as it is about the dance 530 00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:15.719 and the Falcons. Yeah, but I was. I was making a very 531 00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:23.280 specific point, which is the violence done is basically violence largely against h It 532 00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:30.760 is like very specific, targeted violence against the Falcone family and associates. Right, 533 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:36.639 it's not about these big plots to destroy all of Gotham. The Joker 534 00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:40.039 tries to, you know, murder half of the people theoretically, and Batman 535 00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:44.719 stops him, but that's like a side note. That's usually act three. 536 00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:46.960 Yeah, you're right, right, there is no big plot to stop, 537 00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:51.320 right. The big plot to stop is usually the main act. Like in 538 00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:54.559 The Batman there's a big plot to stop at the end, because that's how 539 00:38:54.920 --> 00:39:00.719 you structure blockbusters. And I feel like there's value you in that act. 540 00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:04.039 I don't feel like it ruins the movie or anything. And I don't think 541 00:39:04.039 --> 00:39:07.039 it's a third act. It's like a seventh act or whatever. I haven't 542 00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:10.960 really thought a ton about the exact structure of the whole movie, but I 543 00:39:12.039 --> 00:39:15.880 do know that's a thing that a lot of people felt like, like do 544 00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:21.119 we need to do this? And I do actually co sign the view like 545 00:39:21.159 --> 00:39:24.039 no, I don't think you needed to do that exactly that way, right. 546 00:39:24.760 --> 00:39:29.400 I do think it's interesting that here, you know, the most public 547 00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:32.920 thing Batman does is save all those people from the Joker, right, right, 548 00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:37.800 But that's a side note in this story, which I actually find a 549 00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:43.719 lot more elegant and interesting, where it's like Batman's trying to solve this mystery 550 00:39:44.599 --> 00:39:52.360 of a bunch of you know, criminals mostly getting killed and you know spoilers, 551 00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:58.760 eventually maybe he does, and but he saves like these tons of people 552 00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:02.159 from Joker talks in and like that's a side note, right, that's just 553 00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:06.480 like, oh, yeah, this happened, and I think that's kind of 554 00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:10.880 cool to frame the story that way. The Big Bad's plan is to eventually 555 00:40:12.039 --> 00:40:15.599 kill the last of the mobsters, and it works like the Big Bad does 556 00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:19.360 the thing the Big Bad wants to do. Do you do you want to 557 00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:22.840 actually get to the spoiler section? Now, yeah, I was saying, 558 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:24.079 let's let's do that. So let's just take a quick break and then we're 559 00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:29.639 gonna talk about the who Holiday is and some other spoiler stuff and then wrap 560 00:40:29.719 --> 00:40:35.679 up right back, all right, so we're back, So yeah, let's 561 00:40:35.719 --> 00:40:39.400 start talking about the Big Bad Holiday and who it gets revealed to be. 562 00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:45.159 Because we're now it's spoiler sections going into spoilers in three two one Holiday is 563 00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:51.199 Gilda Dent, Harvey's wife, which I definitely did not see coming. What 564 00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:52.719 did you think of kind of the way that story wound up playing out? 565 00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:59.480 I thought it was I liked it a lot. I think early on you 566 00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:02.960 were briefe supposed to entertain the notion that maybe it was like the Joker or 567 00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:06.519 something, because he just escaped at a certain time. But then you're supposed 568 00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:08.119 to, oh, it's not him. And at the end of the first 569 00:41:08.119 --> 00:41:15.199 one, you were supposed to think it was Alfonso Falcone m Carmine's son, 570 00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:22.239 right, who actually was Gilda's first husband, And they had met at Oxford 571 00:41:22.599 --> 00:41:29.519 and and she was pregnant, and then they got married, and then Carmine 572 00:41:29.559 --> 00:41:38.039 found out and had it annulled and forcibly aborted the you know, the fetus 573 00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:44.599 or whatever it was at that stage, which you know that's not pro choice, 574 00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:50.320 right, right, Like non consensual abortions are bad. And she uses 575 00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:53.800 the words ripped from my womb, and while the word infertility has never stated. 576 00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:58.599 Yeah, there's a running flought line with Harvey and her that she can't 577 00:41:58.599 --> 00:42:00.920 have children, and so they think the idea is that I did it in 578 00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:05.039 a way that want to basically like she's unable to get pregnant again or unable 579 00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:08.039 to carry a trail right exactly, like like they might have you know, 580 00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:14.679 hysterectomized or whatever is that a word? Um? Yeah, like so so 581 00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:17.920 you know this is violence done to her. This isn't you know, a 582 00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:22.519 choice of hers anyway. And those by the way, who who decided not 583 00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:24.639 you don't want to go watch the movie, which is totally fine though I 584 00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:28.400 think it is very good. But for those who are fine being spoiled but 585 00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:30.159 are still listening along, we only learn all this at the very end, 586 00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:36.480 right. Um. Yes, I will say I definitely knew it was hard, 587 00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:42.760 Like, um, I watched a lot of mysteries and um there you 588 00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:47.320 know, I there are things I won't talk about, like how the mystery 589 00:42:47.559 --> 00:42:52.920 was kind of presented, but I do think they did a lot of things 590 00:42:52.039 --> 00:42:58.480 that are an effective way of throwing people off the trail, right, which 591 00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:02.880 which when you watch ton of mysteries then often kind of become like meta clues, 592 00:43:04.519 --> 00:43:07.280 you know. Yeah, where Like I will also say I watched it 593 00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:13.599 well, very high on some antim migraine medicine. I was having trouble falling 594 00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:15.679 some parts of the plot, so it's pready possible. It was a lot 595 00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:17.880 more obvious than I thought. Fair fair, I wouldn't say that I thought 596 00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:22.039 it was obvious. I would say that they did some things that I that 597 00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:27.400 I found to be very clear. Mistrex, Like they kept talking about Holiday, 598 00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:30.039 Oh, him, him, this guy, this guy, and I'm 599 00:43:30.079 --> 00:43:32.599 like, they keep saying him, like it can't possibly be a woman. 600 00:43:32.880 --> 00:43:37.400 And that's exactly the sort of thing you want to do if the killer is 601 00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:39.840 actually a woman, right, And and then you know there's some other things 602 00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:43.960 throughout, But um yeah, I thought it was a good mystery. I 603 00:43:44.199 --> 00:43:47.559 didn't think from like, you know, the first scene that it was her. 604 00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:52.519 You know, it took a while. I think I solved it before 605 00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:58.639 Batman did. But I like that throughout Batman is like, you know, 606 00:43:58.679 --> 00:44:02.559 I didn't know the Batman have to be a detective to do this basically, 607 00:44:02.679 --> 00:44:07.000 right, And then by the end he becomes a good enough detective to solve 608 00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:12.440 it, right, and no one else does except well Harvey actually solves it. 609 00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:17.199 Yeah, right, and and Harvey actually kills Carmine. Um right, 610 00:44:17.320 --> 00:44:22.320 it's not it's not it's not her who does it. And then when he 611 00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:24.800 gets caught. He takes credit for all of everything that happened, kind of 612 00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:30.400 covering for her exactly. And we don't even know whether Batman tells anyone else 613 00:44:30.440 --> 00:44:36.079 at the end, because he's basically he's like, I need to know that 614 00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:40.000 holiday is done. And she's like not done finished, Like that was it? 615 00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:46.280 You know, She's she's not like a serial killer who wants to kill 616 00:44:46.280 --> 00:44:52.440 a lot of people. She's a person with a vendetta that has been completed, 617 00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:54.519 you know, right, And and so I think at the end of 618 00:44:54.559 --> 00:45:00.400 it, Batman's like, yeah, okay, like and I think he's like 619 00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:06.280 his parents were also killed by Falcone, right or by their association with him, 620 00:45:06.280 --> 00:45:08.960 maybe by Moroni, I'm not sure. And I think it's stated that 621 00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:14.119 like nobody knows, right, it's not clear. It's clear that that was 622 00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:17.360 the reason they got killed, but it's not clear exactly who did it, 623 00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:22.400 which I have to make a quick interruption. We do see a flashback to 624 00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:25.199 his parents' death, and we saw a hand reach for the pearls and I 625 00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:30.880 audibly groaned, but then they drip away and that's always see of the pearls, 626 00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:31.920 and I was like, Okay, that's fine. There's no slow motion 627 00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:35.880 of pearls. I can deal with that. Yeah, And we don't even 628 00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:39.719 really see them get shot in like full frame, you know, the way 629 00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:45.360 it's shot is it. I think it shows their faces and then it shows 630 00:45:45.400 --> 00:45:51.000 like Bruce's face, and then it cuts back to Batman in crime alley which 631 00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:57.599 they don't name, and some other family who's like get away from him and 632 00:45:55.599 --> 00:46:00.840 right, and it's happening while he's on a hallucinogenic rug. So it's much 633 00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:02.960 like I don't want to keep seeing that scene, but I feel like, 634 00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:07.159 if you're gonna show me that scene, they both earned it in the plot. 635 00:46:07.239 --> 00:46:09.039 And then also like didn't do it as bad as it normally is that 636 00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:10.960 that was by a side. We can go back to the main Yeah, 637 00:46:12.039 --> 00:46:14.880 yeah, one hundred percent, one hundred percent. And you know, I 638 00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:19.840 was happy in The Batman where they didn't have that scene right here. I 639 00:46:19.880 --> 00:46:21.639 felt like, Okay, if you're going to do it, that's the way 640 00:46:21.639 --> 00:46:24.639 to do it. Cool moving on, great um, And you know, 641 00:46:24.679 --> 00:46:30.000 and and because this is an earlier Batman, this is like year two Batman. 642 00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:32.079 Right, there's a there's a comic Batman Year one, and this is 643 00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:39.880 like year two basically, And yeah, so I think I think Batman like 644 00:46:40.519 --> 00:46:46.719 understands, like Bruce understands where Gilda is coming from, you know, in 645 00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:52.920 terms of this like wanting vengeance and he's chosen a different path. But you 646 00:46:52.960 --> 00:46:59.239 know, she's essentially gotten vengeance on all the people that he might have wanted 647 00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:01.840 vengeance on. Um. So it's so you could say he's got like a 648 00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:05.760 little bit of a conflict of interest really and in terms of like letting her 649 00:47:05.800 --> 00:47:08.320 walk or maybe letting her walk, we don't even know, but it does 650 00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:13.719 seem like he's just like, Okay, well you did all these you know, 651 00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:16.679 you you caused all this harm to all these people. But if you're 652 00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:21.880 done now, okay, you know what am I going to do? What's 653 00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:27.519 the point in bringing you in? And you know, and like he just 654 00:47:27.559 --> 00:47:31.320 stands there while she's destroying the evidence. Yeah, it reminds me a lot 655 00:47:31.400 --> 00:47:35.199 of you're probably gonna much more about this than I do. And we don't 656 00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:38.159 need to go to into the details. But Dexter is another favorite TV show 657 00:47:38.199 --> 00:47:43.760 of both of ours. I think the ending notwithstanding, yes, but where 658 00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:46.800 one of the points is like he is someone who, on the one hand, 659 00:47:46.840 --> 00:47:51.360 like he wants to kill in order to like, you know, have 660 00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:53.960 vendettas and to take out bad people. But for him it also is a 661 00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:59.559 compulsion. For him, it is a compulsion he couldn't just stop. And 662 00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:02.840 he was across as someone who he thinks might be kind of like a partner, 663 00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:07.719 both romantically but also in the same way. But what is it revealed 664 00:48:07.719 --> 00:48:10.159 eventually is that she had a similar thing. She had a vendetta against the 665 00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:15.159 specific group, and once she's finished with that, she no longer needs to 666 00:48:15.239 --> 00:48:19.159 kill the way he does. And in some ways I think that that's kind 667 00:48:19.159 --> 00:48:22.000 of a question that Batman is trying to get at in that final scene with 668 00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:24.239 Gilda, of like, are you going to do this again? And you're 669 00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:27.400 right, we don't know exactly what happened. We don't know if he turns 670 00:48:27.400 --> 00:48:30.800 a rand, but I think he doesn't because I think he I think it's 671 00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:34.559 pretty clear, is that he is satisfied that she believes she's not going to 672 00:48:34.639 --> 00:48:37.480 do this again, and then he just he doesn't really say anything. He 673 00:48:37.519 --> 00:48:42.280 just walks away. Yeah. Yeah, And I think that's that to me 674 00:48:42.599 --> 00:48:50.320 matches kind of what sort of the lack of the idea of justice being the 675 00:48:50.360 --> 00:48:54.239 most important thing right the idea of being like the most important thing is what's 676 00:48:54.239 --> 00:48:59.760 going to happen next. You know, Okay, we know that you did 677 00:48:59.800 --> 00:49:02.519 these things, right, we know that you murdered these people. Are you, 678 00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:07.679 you know, a murderer in terms of your actions? Well? Sure, 679 00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:10.599 yeah, But are you a murderer in terms of your like what you 680 00:49:10.639 --> 00:49:14.920 want to do with your life? You know, like like dexter Is is 681 00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:22.199 compulsively wants to kill, like it's just a thing, right, and and 682 00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:30.559 so you know his dad from Jericho, uh, wants to like find a 683 00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:35.920 way for him to channel that in a constructive way that also won't get him 684 00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:40.199 in as much trouble, right, And here that's not like who this guilda 685 00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:44.079 is as as far as we can tell. I mean, sure, I 686 00:49:44.119 --> 00:49:47.519 would think like if someone deeply wrongs her in the future, she's more likely 687 00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:53.440 than a random person to then go through some sort of violent vendetta. But 688 00:49:54.960 --> 00:50:00.239 all the people that she really had on her list are she crossed off everyone 689 00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:05.000 on her list, And it's like, you know, okay, well it 690 00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:08.880 doesn't seem like you're going to be causing a lot of harm going forward, 691 00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:15.159 so you know, go live the rest of your life. I mean I'm 692 00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:17.360 so torn on that, because you're right, I think this is kind of 693 00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:22.480 what we talked about with with Dread not long ago. Criminal justice can have 694 00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:24.920 a number of different approaches, and one approach can be you did a bad 695 00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:29.000 thing and so therefore you should be punished, which I think both you and 696 00:50:29.079 --> 00:50:32.639 I are like pretty strongly rejecting because it's to be proven, it doesn't work, 697 00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:37.960 and it feeds into the worst impulses. Another is, we want to 698 00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:42.000 prevent you from doing future harm, and so therefore we're going to put in 699 00:50:42.079 --> 00:50:45.440 a place where you're incapable of doing future harm, which I think you know, 700 00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:49.639 I think can be very helpful. But also there's like a difference between 701 00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:53.000 helping to get someone to a point where they're not going to do harm versus 702 00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:57.800 just locking them away in a cage somewhere. But I think a third thing 703 00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:05.800 is that preventing people in society from doing harm in general does involve letting them 704 00:51:05.840 --> 00:51:08.440 know that if they do harm and get caught, then something bad might happen 705 00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:10.800 to them. And like, to me, here it kind of goes to 706 00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:14.840 the thing you were saying before about how like I fully want to reform the 707 00:51:14.920 --> 00:51:17.199 justice system, but I also don't want to say, because right now we 708 00:51:17.239 --> 00:51:22.159 have a broken police system, we should do nothing about people who do violence 709 00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:24.400 to each other until we have a good system to treat them with, you 710 00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:27.440 know, like we got to do something about it still today and now. 711 00:51:27.760 --> 00:51:30.039 So I think that's the one part where I stumble a bit, though I 712 00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:31.400 do think that they resolve it well, because I do think that, like 713 00:51:32.280 --> 00:51:35.559 you know, I think a world in which we say, if you do 714 00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:38.119 a bad if you kill someone, but then by the time you get caught 715 00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:40.519 you can prove you're never gonna do it again. You always get to walk 716 00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:46.760 free. Like that's not a good situation. But the problem being that if 717 00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:50.599 people think, like, oh, someone else killed and got away with it. 718 00:51:50.960 --> 00:51:54.760 The fact that Harvey done takes responsibility for all those crimes, I think 719 00:51:54.880 --> 00:51:58.679 is the one other factor that I think helps Batman be okay with it, 720 00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:00.719 because I do think that Batman at some levels, like I said, he's 721 00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:02.519 not just going to say, Okay, you're never gonna kill again, I'm 722 00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:07.000 gonna all of you walk free. But the fact that he both understands where 723 00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:09.000 he's coming from, where she's coming from so much he sympathizes with that. 724 00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:13.400 But Also I think that someone else has taken credit, so at least in 725 00:52:13.400 --> 00:52:16.920 the public's mind, this this this crime has been dealt with, is a 726 00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:21.280 part of what allows him to walk back up those stairs. Yeah, I 727 00:52:21.320 --> 00:52:25.119 agree, um with with with that last part for sure. I think in 728 00:52:25.239 --> 00:52:32.480 terms of you know, punishment as a means of dissuading people from doing things, 729 00:52:32.599 --> 00:52:37.639 I think that's a that's a whole conversation, you know. But I 730 00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:45.960 do think here it is definitely true that he is, you know, given 731 00:52:45.079 --> 00:52:52.440 that opportunity to not not have someone visibly walking free, right to have the 732 00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:58.920 case be closed, as you know, two face and Harvey took credit. 733 00:52:59.280 --> 00:53:01.880 And it's like, okay, well, what's the value in Like, he's 734 00:53:02.119 --> 00:53:06.000 he's going to be an Arkham as long as Arkham can hold him, which, 735 00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:09.519 as we all know, is probably not very long. But you know, 736 00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:15.159 it doesn't really matter whether he I mean, because he definitely killed Carmine, 737 00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:17.719 right, so like, yeah, you know, he'll he'll be in 738 00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:22.000 there for a while no matter what. Um. And then and he also 739 00:53:22.119 --> 00:53:28.679 I guess he orchestrated the Arkham prison break as well himself, so even more 740 00:53:28.760 --> 00:53:32.079 evidence that it probably won't hold him that long. Um, yeah. And 741 00:53:32.599 --> 00:53:36.519 and to be clear, to be clear, I'm not saying that like retribute 742 00:53:36.559 --> 00:53:38.840 of justice helps with prevention, like that's been proven to be very clear. 743 00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:43.920 I'm just saying that also like a system of no consequences whatsoever doesn't seem great 744 00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:45.920 either, and that just yeah, yeah, I get you, I get 745 00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:52.679 you. Yeah. So so I feel like, you know it, Batman 746 00:53:52.760 --> 00:53:57.079 kind of gets to have it both ways here right where he gets to let 747 00:53:57.119 --> 00:54:04.400 this person who has been greatly harmed and then done a large amount of harm 748 00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:09.679 as well, um in vengeance for that, he lets to let her walk 749 00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:15.119 and then you know, maybe have her second life or third life as this 750 00:54:15.400 --> 00:54:19.239 it seems like this this middle one's kind of been like a purgatory of sorts 751 00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:22.360 for her, and like who knows what she'll do after that? Right, 752 00:54:22.760 --> 00:54:25.519 Um, And there is this theme of like a second life obviously Batman, 753 00:54:25.800 --> 00:54:30.719 you know from Bruce Wayne. But there's this this great scene between um, 754 00:54:31.159 --> 00:54:37.760 Harvey Dent just before he becomes to face and Solomon Grundy who just keeps saying 755 00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:45.039 born on a Monday and and like, but then Harvey goes through the whole 756 00:54:45.119 --> 00:54:50.280 cycle of like on Tuesday, Um, something else happened and Wednesday, and 757 00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:53.000 then you know he died on Sunday, and then Grundy's like born on a 758 00:54:53.079 --> 00:54:58.880 Monday, and he's like reborn. And then then you know, Dent takes 759 00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:01.119 off the bandages and now two face, and you know this is very clearly 760 00:55:01.199 --> 00:55:06.480 kind of his his second life, and so you know, maybe Gilda can 761 00:55:06.639 --> 00:55:10.719 have a second life as whatever else. You know. I did quite like 762 00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:14.840 the character of Luca Grundy, I mean, sorry Solomon Brazzi, I mean 763 00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:19.000 sorry Solomon Grundy as the Luca Brazzi stand in for this, And yeah, 764 00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:21.679 I thought that was really the use of that poem was really well done. 765 00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:24.599 Yeah, I don't know you had mentioned that. I mean, I think 766 00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:30.760 there's definitely some like nods to the Godfather, as in not to mention like 767 00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:37.000 specifically calling m Carmine, you know, the Godfather. But I didn't totally 768 00:55:37.039 --> 00:55:45.880 get the the Luca Brazzi, um you know, uh connection. I mean, 769 00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:47.280 he didn't sleep with any fishes. I guess he actually does. He 770 00:55:47.639 --> 00:55:51.400 lives in the sewer, so I don't know. Yeah, I think just 771 00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:53.199 in like they put him in a suit and they had him as the kind 772 00:55:53.239 --> 00:55:58.800 of like almost nonverbal but big effective killer type. Yeah, okay, fair 773 00:55:59.079 --> 00:56:02.480 fair, so more in terms of vibe rather than kind of plot positioning. 774 00:56:02.719 --> 00:56:07.199 I got you. I feel that. Yeah. So there's one other thing 775 00:56:07.239 --> 00:56:07.960 I want to say about the guild of thing, and then we can do 776 00:56:08.039 --> 00:56:10.480 some kind of last things in the wrap up, which is that I think 777 00:56:10.480 --> 00:56:15.320 part of why I didn't see it is like it works very well for the 778 00:56:15.360 --> 00:56:20.039 story, and I think if I hadn't gotten really invested in the other version 779 00:56:20.079 --> 00:56:22.159 of what we were seeing of her, I would have liked a lot more. 780 00:56:22.760 --> 00:56:25.840 But one of the things that is done is that and I think probably 781 00:56:25.880 --> 00:56:29.440 some of this is very real, but some of this is to sell her 782 00:56:29.480 --> 00:56:34.559 story throughout the story until then, Guilda is very much kind of a shut 783 00:56:34.559 --> 00:56:37.639 in and like she's constantly like she has obviously like a lot of very down 784 00:56:37.679 --> 00:56:43.519 moods, and she doesn't want to go out as much as Harvey does, 785 00:56:43.559 --> 00:56:47.320 and like be seen in public as much as Harvey does. And I thought 786 00:56:47.360 --> 00:56:52.639 it was one of the most beautiful explorations I had seen of a character going 787 00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:58.079 through long term depression and reproductive loss of some kind. And the way they 788 00:56:58.079 --> 00:57:01.400 showed Harvey not like hitting her, like being terrible to her, but still 789 00:57:02.239 --> 00:57:06.400 reacting in the way that I think is very common, but it's actually quite 790 00:57:06.519 --> 00:57:10.000 harmful for a person who doesn't quite understand the mental issues that someone else is 791 00:57:10.039 --> 00:57:13.480 going through to respond to with them, you know, And he kind of 792 00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:15.760 gaslights her at times. He's kind of like trying to get her to minimize 793 00:57:15.800 --> 00:57:21.639 things. And it wasn't again, it wasn't shown to be like, look, 794 00:57:21.639 --> 00:57:23.800 how evil Harvey is to her, so he belongs everything that's happening to 795 00:57:23.880 --> 00:57:28.880 him. But I think it was a way of showing that Harvey is getting 796 00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:30.639 so wrapped up and everything else that's going on to him, that part of 797 00:57:30.639 --> 00:57:35.960 his fall is that he's really neglecting the emotional needs of his wife and of 798 00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:39.320 that part of his life. And I still think a lot of that is 799 00:57:39.320 --> 00:57:43.920 true and a lot of that still works. But knowing that some of that 800 00:57:43.960 --> 00:57:45.639 at least was an act, because like you know, she would say like 801 00:57:45.679 --> 00:57:49.519 Harvey, I really need to leave, and then a little while later the 802 00:57:49.559 --> 00:57:52.800 holiday holiday would kill someone. It was like sort of like, Okay, 803 00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:57.320 you gave me one character and then showed me that that character was kind of 804 00:57:57.360 --> 00:58:00.159 a shadow for the real character, and that's but I really love that first 805 00:58:00.239 --> 00:58:04.079 character you gave us, and this was a little sad that that it wasn't 806 00:58:04.119 --> 00:58:07.280 taken away, but it definitely was Like going back and watching it now, 807 00:58:07.320 --> 00:58:12.079 I think I'm gonna have a lot less sincerity of what Gilda is putting out, 808 00:58:12.119 --> 00:58:14.679 you know, And I'm a little bummed about that, even though it 809 00:58:14.719 --> 00:58:17.920 still makes her a great twist. I hear you. I did just watch 810 00:58:17.920 --> 00:58:22.559 it for the second time, and I'll say, I don't feel like she 811 00:58:22.639 --> 00:58:27.000 was putting on an act, you know, Like I do think you know, 812 00:58:27.039 --> 00:58:30.920 when she was at one point she's like under police protection or whatever, 813 00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:36.199 and she's like, you know, I think she's like, oh, I 814 00:58:36.280 --> 00:58:37.519 have to go do this, I have to go to this, and and 815 00:58:37.519 --> 00:58:40.000 they're like no, no, no, but you know, we can't leave 816 00:58:40.039 --> 00:58:47.360 you alone or whatever. And I think, like I feel like she's both 817 00:58:47.400 --> 00:58:51.719 of those people though, you know, like I think as holiday, she's 818 00:58:51.760 --> 00:58:57.039 not like there's no personality there, right, She's she's just going and doing 819 00:58:57.039 --> 00:59:00.719 a thing. And I I get you that it feels like, you know, 820 00:59:00.760 --> 00:59:08.239 you've taken this very specific character and then added this other thing that um 821 00:59:08.559 --> 00:59:15.239 feels sort of I mean, it definitely doesn't let the first character just be 822 00:59:15.400 --> 00:59:19.960 just that right, right, and and and so I feel you there. 823 00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:22.840 Um, But at this point I think it's also just the normal representation stuff 824 00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:27.639 we talk about of If there hadn't been so few of that first kind character, 825 00:59:27.639 --> 00:59:30.199 I probably wouldn't mind in they were yours much right, yeah, where 826 00:59:30.239 --> 00:59:32.599 it's like it's like, oh, we finally get you know, a representation 827 00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:38.360 of this. It is also a serial killer on holidays, Okay, okay, 828 00:59:38.519 --> 00:59:40.559 you know, but yeah, but it still was a great twist, 829 00:59:40.559 --> 00:59:44.159 and I think that's part of why. Also I didn't see it coming is 830 00:59:44.519 --> 00:59:46.360 because yeah, the scene where she's with those cops and wants to get off 831 00:59:46.400 --> 00:59:49.719 by herself, I think it's probably a lot more suspicious than I gave it 832 00:59:49.800 --> 00:59:52.920 credit for. Yeah yeah, yeah. And then also it's just like from 833 00:59:52.920 --> 01:00:01.039 a storytelling perspective, um, it's like, why is this story giving her 834 01:00:01.159 --> 01:00:06.480 so much room? You know? Um, I think it's great that it 835 01:00:06.519 --> 01:00:08.239 does, and I think it would be great if a story where she wasn't 836 01:00:08.280 --> 01:00:14.920 the killer did that. But typically, you know, a comic book story 837 01:00:15.599 --> 01:00:23.480 isn't going to focus on you know, the depressed wife of the like third 838 01:00:24.679 --> 01:00:31.280 protagonist. You know, like that's that's a that's an unusual choice, and 839 01:00:31.280 --> 01:00:36.119 and so to me that probably popped out as well as like an instant like 840 01:00:36.559 --> 01:00:38.639 well, who's she? Like, you know, like what is? What 841 01:00:38.760 --> 01:00:42.880 is? Why is she in this story so much? Which isn't? I 842 01:00:42.920 --> 01:00:45.800 don't mean like it would be a bad choice otherwise, I think it would 843 01:00:45.800 --> 01:00:49.400 be a great choice. Otherwise it would be very interesting, but um, 844 01:00:49.840 --> 01:00:52.639 but it just would be an unusual one. It's it's I wouldn't expect storytellers 845 01:00:52.639 --> 01:00:58.239 to go to that those lengths. And I think in some ways you actually 846 01:00:58.280 --> 01:01:00.679 made my point even better than I was making it, and also helped me 847 01:01:00.760 --> 01:01:04.599 understand how we see the movie a little differently because to me, Harvey dent 848 01:01:02.920 --> 01:01:07.559 On the main character of this, like I see it primarily about here, 849 01:01:07.639 --> 01:01:09.599 And part of that's because I've always been so fascinated with his story, So 850 01:01:09.599 --> 01:01:13.960 maybe that's what I glom onto most. But You're right, I thought it 851 01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:16.760 was so interesting and so different that they were giving us her story. Yeah, 852 01:01:16.800 --> 01:01:20.519 and I want to I wish we saw more of that, and so 853 01:01:20.519 --> 01:01:22.119 that was part of also, I think be like, oh, that's why 854 01:01:22.119 --> 01:01:24.519 you gave us her story, not just because you think it's interesting. Okay, 855 01:01:24.559 --> 01:01:28.320 that's fine. Yeah, yeah, And I do feel like they thought 856 01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:32.480 it was interesting enough to be actually the I mean, in another way, 857 01:01:32.559 --> 01:01:36.800 she's the main character, right. Yeah. It's like, sure, it's 858 01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:40.400 called Batman The Long Halloween, and a lot of it focuses on, you 859 01:01:40.440 --> 01:01:45.480 know, Harvey Dent and him becoming two Face, but like it's a story 860 01:01:45.519 --> 01:01:50.679 about serial killer, right, and she's like, in some way, the 861 01:01:50.760 --> 01:01:53.800 villain is always the star, right, And I wouldn't I wouldn't even call 862 01:01:53.840 --> 01:01:58.480 her a villain, you know, but she's she's definitely the serial killer, 863 01:01:58.599 --> 01:02:00.800 you know, she's the one, you know who done it, and um, 864 01:02:01.360 --> 01:02:06.480 and so yeah, I think, uh, you know, I would. 865 01:02:06.599 --> 01:02:12.239 I would love to see something similar that's a mystery that also has characters 866 01:02:12.239 --> 01:02:15.440 who you wouldn't expect to be as well fleshed out as well fleshed out as 867 01:02:15.440 --> 01:02:19.960 she is, who are actually then red herrings, you know. And it's 868 01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:23.480 like that's all the when you do a mystery, you can take any character 869 01:02:23.960 --> 01:02:30.199 and make them a big deal either because they are with a number of members 870 01:02:30.199 --> 01:02:34.039 of Falconi's family, right exactly, you know, and they none of them 871 01:02:34.039 --> 01:02:37.639 I felt got quite as much, but a lot of them got way more 872 01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:40.440 than they would in a story that was just, you know, an action 873 01:02:40.480 --> 01:02:44.639 story. This wasn't an action story. It was it was a mystery that 874 01:02:44.760 --> 01:02:49.400 had action in it, right, I think you're right, all right, 875 01:02:49.440 --> 01:02:51.840 Well, just a couple of last things I wanted to touch on and hear 876 01:02:51.840 --> 01:02:54.920 from you as well before you wrap up. I was really impressed with with 877 01:02:55.079 --> 01:03:00.000 the voice casting Jensen Eccles, who is most known for Supernatural and now for 878 01:03:00.079 --> 01:03:02.599 the Boys. He's the voice of Batman, and I thought he was very 879 01:03:02.599 --> 01:03:07.400 good. And it's also interesting because like when we people talk about who are 880 01:03:07.440 --> 01:03:10.679 the Batman, you know, who are the people who played Batman? Actually 881 01:03:10.960 --> 01:03:15.039 never heard his name mentioned in the in the conversation, I think because this 882 01:03:15.119 --> 01:03:20.440 is much smaller. Um. The only little I love having Katie sack Off, 883 01:03:20.440 --> 01:03:22.320 who people know from Battles for Galactica and some other things is poison Ivy 884 01:03:22.360 --> 01:03:28.719 and some other great people and as Bokatan. Yeah yeah, yeah, very 885 01:03:28.800 --> 01:03:30.639 much so. The only thing that like, I thought it was good of 886 01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:34.239 voice acting, but it just kind of like rubbed me a little bit the 887 01:03:34.239 --> 01:03:37.400 wrong way. But again, I focus on these things a lot. Nya 888 01:03:37.480 --> 01:03:40.719 Rivera who a lot of people know from Glee, where she really got her 889 01:03:40.760 --> 01:03:45.400 start. Unfortunately has passed away. She was the voice of Selina Kyle of 890 01:03:45.480 --> 01:03:52.199 Catwoman, which I thought was great. Naya is Latina or Nya Someone's dead? 891 01:03:52.320 --> 01:03:55.320 You say was or is? I say it was? And yeah, 892 01:03:55.400 --> 01:04:00.960 you know, I say died violently in by drowning, not passed away, 893 01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:04.760 but you know, yeah it's me. Oh yeah, Um, Naya was 894 01:04:04.840 --> 01:04:10.320 Latina and quite dark skinned and sort of have her voice acting a much lighter 895 01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:15.159 skin Selena Kyle I didn't love, but I also know that like we're still 896 01:04:15.199 --> 01:04:17.639 going very slowly on that kind of thing, so fair enough. Um. 897 01:04:17.719 --> 01:04:20.599 But yeah, other than that, I really love the voice acting and I 898 01:04:20.599 --> 01:04:25.079 thought you're right, the animation was just absolutely gorgeous. Yeah. Um, 899 01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:29.000 I mean the first one, at least the first one was dedicated to her, 900 01:04:29.079 --> 01:04:39.159 as she died sometime between recording the voice and um doing the what's it 901 01:04:39.199 --> 01:04:42.519 called? H oh and the and the release of the movie. It's like, 902 01:04:42.679 --> 01:04:45.400 yeah, quite tragically too. Yeah. Um yeah, I mean in 903 01:04:45.480 --> 01:04:50.199 terms of I don't know, it's it's interesting because it's like that's also kind 904 01:04:50.199 --> 01:04:57.599 of the um the opposite of like if you have you know, a white 905 01:04:57.599 --> 01:05:03.559 actor playing a character with with darker skin like that also is going to be 906 01:05:04.199 --> 01:05:10.079 Um, I don't know. I guess what I'm trying to say is I 907 01:05:10.119 --> 01:05:15.320 think that this is probably less problematic than that. And um, it's possible 908 01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:19.280 that they basically had the animation and then they cast her, you know, 909 01:05:19.480 --> 01:05:25.360 right that make Yeah, that would make some sense. But yeah, I 910 01:05:25.840 --> 01:05:30.360 thought she was a very good catwoman regardless. Um. And I did feel 911 01:05:30.440 --> 01:05:36.440 that, um, who was it. I felt like Jensen Accles was kind 912 01:05:36.480 --> 01:05:42.719 of trying to do with Kevin Conroy without like trying to do a Kevin Conroy 913 01:05:42.760 --> 01:05:46.199 impersonation. I wondered the first people was Conroy because it sounded kind It definitely 914 01:05:46.239 --> 01:05:49.599 sounded like that strong gruff, giving very little emotion, but not quite there. 915 01:05:50.000 --> 01:05:54.519 Yeah, And I would say, um, you know, I don't 916 01:05:54.559 --> 01:05:58.639 want someone to do an impersonation, but to me, this kind of hit 917 01:05:58.679 --> 01:06:02.480 the sweet spot of feeling like it was in the spirit of the Kevin Conroy 918 01:06:02.519 --> 01:06:10.199 batman without being like I'm going to try and impersonate Kevin Conroy. Um yeah, 919 01:06:10.280 --> 01:06:15.559 yeah, And and overall I did think the voice acting was excellent and 920 01:06:15.320 --> 01:06:21.280 the yeah, but but the the animation was just uh on, I feel 921 01:06:21.280 --> 01:06:27.960 like it's on another level from a lot of the other animation um that we 922 01:06:28.039 --> 01:06:33.039 see from you know, um, especially Disney, I guess, particularly in 923 01:06:33.119 --> 01:06:35.079 terms of like Star Wars, you know. I mean there's things in the 924 01:06:35.119 --> 01:06:39.480 Star Wars animation that I think are great, like it's the settings and stuff, 925 01:06:40.079 --> 01:06:43.880 but in terms of the characters themselves, like this, it feels more 926 01:06:43.920 --> 01:06:47.760 to me like a comic book um that moves you know. Yeah, I 927 01:06:47.760 --> 01:06:50.239 think it's very good. Yeah, it ruined me that way of us eat 928 01:06:50.280 --> 01:06:56.119 the Spider Verse. Yeah, a very different styles. Any other last things 929 01:06:56.159 --> 01:06:59.519 you wanted to bring up? Coorey wrap up? Uh? Yeah, There's 930 01:06:59.599 --> 01:07:09.599 there's one more line from Gilda at the end where she says, in the 931 01:07:09.719 --> 01:07:13.440 end, I loved him talking about Harvey, but not all of him. 932 01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:21.400 And I feel like that kind of parallels some of the Bruce and Selena relationship 933 01:07:21.519 --> 01:07:27.480 where because they're like actually together, there are a couple and Catwoman knows who 934 01:07:27.840 --> 01:07:30.119 Batman is, but then they're not a couple, and it's like they clearly 935 01:07:30.159 --> 01:07:33.159 can't really make it work, but they kind of try, and then then 936 01:07:33.199 --> 01:07:38.400 it doesn't work, and then it does and you know, there are two 937 01:07:38.440 --> 01:07:44.760 more stories that follow this in the same Comics continuity. One is called Catwoman 938 01:07:44.840 --> 01:07:48.880 when in Rome, and the other one's Batman Dark Victory, and the latter 939 01:07:49.159 --> 01:07:56.760 I think is like a Dick Grayson Robin origin, which I think would be 940 01:07:56.800 --> 01:08:00.920 really interesting to see, like handled in the same kind of on the same 941 01:08:01.000 --> 01:08:05.119 level as as this. And I would really like to see the Catwoman one 942 01:08:05.159 --> 01:08:10.039 in Rome, which is she like takes a trip to Rome to try and 943 01:08:10.119 --> 01:08:14.840 find out what's up with you know her, I guess mostly her mom because 944 01:08:15.440 --> 01:08:20.600 m Falconi is dead now here, um and yeah, and it looks like 945 01:08:20.600 --> 01:08:28.119 it's like a week and you know whatever. But unfortunately, you'd have to 946 01:08:28.119 --> 01:08:32.600 get a different voice actress, mostly unfortunately because you know, someone died and 947 01:08:32.680 --> 01:08:38.840 that sucks, right, But it would be nice to see like a Catwoman's 948 01:08:38.840 --> 01:08:42.920 story that's like, this is a Catwoman's story. You know that's not the 949 01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:48.199 halle Berry movie. Yeah, yeah, because it is that same story from 950 01:08:48.279 --> 01:08:54.960 the Batman of Falconi. Was her father right exactly? And she she says 951 01:08:54.960 --> 01:08:57.359 a name at the very end, which I think is supposed to be the 952 01:08:57.399 --> 01:09:00.439 point that that's Cleena Kyle's mother's name. Yeah, she does even know her 953 01:09:00.479 --> 01:09:03.760 brother's name. Yeah, I think he says Luisa. And when she's at 954 01:09:03.760 --> 01:09:11.359 the very end, she's trying to save Sophia, which is I guess her 955 01:09:11.760 --> 01:09:16.000 half sister or sister, and she's like Sophia and then Sophia like let's go 956 01:09:16.079 --> 01:09:20.800 and falls to her death. But it feels almost like they know each other, 957 01:09:21.079 --> 01:09:26.399 you know, like she knows her. Yeah, which was just an 958 01:09:26.439 --> 01:09:31.359 interesting, like just little thing for sure, for sure, Yeah, a 959 01:09:31.399 --> 01:09:34.600 couple of little things. I loved. The Joker at one point makes a 960 01:09:34.640 --> 01:09:40.239 comment that why he has to, like why he's so invested in the holiday 961 01:09:40.239 --> 01:09:42.840 story is that he, like Batman, loves a good puzzle, right, 962 01:09:42.920 --> 01:09:45.279 which is I've never really heard it expressed quite that way, but I really 963 01:09:45.319 --> 01:09:48.880 like that is that something that binds the two of them together. Early on 964 01:09:49.000 --> 01:09:53.319 we talked about how kind of like this is about Batman kind of learning how 965 01:09:53.319 --> 01:09:56.680 to do the stuff he does, especially detective work. There's a scene where 966 01:09:56.680 --> 01:09:59.520 it's pretty clear and Gordon actually says this that he doesn't use the words good 967 01:09:59.560 --> 01:10:01.520 cop, back cop, but but he basically was like, I thought we 968 01:10:01.560 --> 01:10:04.800 had a thing where we were gonna like bluff the violence, and then and 969 01:10:04.960 --> 01:10:08.199 Gordon does the like, yeah, I hope you answer me or else I 970 01:10:08.239 --> 01:10:11.880 can't do with Batman. Yeah, and then Batman there's like does no, 971 01:10:11.960 --> 01:10:13.239 no, dude, it was a bluff. It was a bluff. We 972 01:10:13.319 --> 01:10:15.359 kid, It's like I thought we were doing a bit here. Yeah, 973 01:10:15.720 --> 01:10:19.479 it was really good. And I also just like, I haven't actually seen 974 01:10:19.520 --> 01:10:23.279 this much since the original Godfather, and I think it's very much a reference. 975 01:10:23.319 --> 01:10:25.800 Actually, no, it's in Good Fellows where there no forgive me. 976 01:10:26.399 --> 01:10:29.279 This is a bit that I haven't seen since Good Fellas, and then Good 977 01:10:29.279 --> 01:10:31.479 Fellows did it in reference to the Godfather, but in both of them there's 978 01:10:31.520 --> 01:10:34.680 a scene where the mobsters are like making a spaghetti sauce that's really great. 979 01:10:34.720 --> 01:10:38.680 Oh yeah, And so having Falconi make a reference to how like you have 980 01:10:38.720 --> 01:10:41.439 to get the basil just when it's really fresh to like make the good sauce, 981 01:10:41.479 --> 01:10:43.199 I was like, oh I love that, thank you. Yeah, 982 01:10:43.239 --> 01:10:45.760 it just really made me want to eat some pasta with some like red peppers, 983 01:10:45.880 --> 01:10:50.199 like and you know, yeah, definitely we're gonna do now is we're 984 01:10:50.199 --> 01:10:53.119 doing for most of the year, is we're gonna wrap up, We're gonna 985 01:10:53.159 --> 01:10:55.960 give the outro, and then there's gonna be a bonus section where we talk 986 01:10:55.960 --> 01:10:58.560 a little bit more about the episode and other things we'd recommend, which if 987 01:10:58.600 --> 01:11:00.760 you're a Patreon you get to find out about and so Paul, before I 988 01:11:00.800 --> 01:11:03.000 go into all that, for polks who are following you, what do you 989 01:11:03.000 --> 01:11:06.359 want them to know? I'm Zen Madman in all the places on Twitch, 990 01:11:06.399 --> 01:11:11.560 Twitter, YouTube, I've started coaching, writing and creating again, and details 991 01:11:11.560 --> 01:11:15.079 and all that are available on my website, Zenmadman dot com. Like Matthew, 992 01:11:15.119 --> 01:11:18.359 I'm also launching a Patreon and support there will help me spend more of 993 01:11:18.359 --> 01:11:23.840 my time making stuff for folks. So if you're heading over to support the 994 01:11:23.880 --> 01:11:27.680 Ethical Panda, which you absolutely should do, feel free to stop buy mine 995 01:11:27.720 --> 01:11:30.760 afterwards. That's awesome. I'm really glad to hear you're getting those things started. 996 01:11:30.760 --> 01:11:33.479 And as Paul said, you can find both of us now on Patreon. 997 01:11:33.800 --> 01:11:38.159 I'm the Ethical Panda, Paul is Zen Madman, and I know on 998 01:11:38.359 --> 01:11:41.520 Zen Madman and get a lot of great stuff right here. If you do 999 01:11:41.600 --> 01:11:44.680 sign up to be a patron pretty much any level, you'll get to have 1000 01:11:44.720 --> 01:11:46.000 the bonus content that we're about to do. We've been having a lot of 1001 01:11:46.000 --> 01:11:48.720 fun making those, so really hope you get to check those out. But 1002 01:11:48.760 --> 01:11:51.880 for everyone who's going to be stopping here, as you know, the best 1003 01:11:51.880 --> 01:11:56.079 way to find us on all the places is the Ethical Panda. You can 1004 01:11:56.119 --> 01:11:59.880 find us on Facebook, Twitter, TikTok. Twitter and TikTok are the main 1005 01:12:00.039 --> 01:12:01.800 ones have been focusing on lately, but we do have a discord. We 1006 01:12:01.840 --> 01:12:05.880 do have a Facebook page and depending on content and generation, I'd be happy 1007 01:12:05.920 --> 01:12:10.680 to make more things there. So let us know what you think. This 1008 01:12:10.720 --> 01:12:12.880 is not a movie a lot of people have seen, but if you have 1009 01:12:12.920 --> 01:12:15.039 seen it, would love to hear it. If you haven't, what do 1010 01:12:15.079 --> 01:12:16.079 you think about it? You know, wanting to watch it or what do 1011 01:12:16.079 --> 01:12:20.039 you think about all the questions we raised about you know, this new idea 1012 01:12:20.079 --> 01:12:24.439 of who two Face could be or how you know two faces origin story or 1013 01:12:24.520 --> 01:12:28.560 holiday and who holiday could be and the mystery and what Batman decided to do 1014 01:12:28.560 --> 01:12:30.720 at the end. Would love to hear your feedback and thoughts. The Ethical 1015 01:12:30.760 --> 01:12:34.600 Panda, Twitter, TikTok, Facebook, all those places, and the best 1016 01:12:34.640 --> 01:12:38.039 way to find all that is going to be in the show notes or if 1017 01:12:38.039 --> 01:12:41.840 you go to our website, the Ethical Panda dot com. There you'll find 1018 01:12:41.880 --> 01:12:45.119 all the continent information you'll find information about all the other podcasts we're doing. 1019 01:12:45.319 --> 01:12:48.800 We've been doing episode bay episode coverage of The Bad Batch. We have a 1020 01:12:48.840 --> 01:12:54.720 great episode coming out on the Last of Us with Danielle written in the Star 1021 01:12:54.760 --> 01:12:56.920 Wars who's a huge fan of that show, and he's going to have a 1022 01:12:57.680 --> 01:13:00.840 She's played through the whole video game I have not so have a great conversation 1023 01:13:00.880 --> 01:13:03.199 about that. That'll be here on this podcast coming soon. All that's going 1024 01:13:03.239 --> 01:13:05.920 to be up on the website. So thank you so much for listening. 1025 01:13:06.119 --> 01:13:10.199 If you're a patron, then we will have more for you in just a 1026 01:13:10.239 --> 01:13:20.239 second. For everybody else, have a great day.