1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:28,519 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:32,479 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,799 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:44,479 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome back to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin 10 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,600 Dilly. That makes me Bill Thomas. We're joined for a second episode by 11 00:00:48,679 --> 00:00:53,200 Kate Miles, author of Trailed, One Woman's Quest to Solve the Shenandoah Murders, 12 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,840 which is getting quite a lot of interest considering that there was just a 13 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,799 big announcement made in this case. Kate, thank you for joining us again. 14 00:01:00,359 --> 00:01:07,519 Hi still simmering with righteous indignation over here, as you should be I'm 15 00:01:07,599 --> 00:01:14,040 always looking for some good news when we talk about these cases, and obviously 16 00:01:14,359 --> 00:01:22,599 getting some degree of information and a potential offender named and some answers, at 17 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,079 least some, I would say, is good news. One other piece of 18 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:30,760 good news, I think that's in the mix here. I struggle with the 19 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,599 pronunciation of the attorney general's name, but I'll do my best and do it. 20 00:01:34,879 --> 00:01:41,079 Kristin will help me if I stumble. Virginia Attorney General Jason Mieris, 21 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,560 I got to think back to my life in Los Angeles and get a little 22 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:51,879 bit more Latino going on. There has made funds available for sexual Assault Kit 23 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:56,879 Initiative grants. These are being given around the country, but in Virginia in 24 00:01:56,959 --> 00:02:02,760 particular. The backlog at the State Lab in Virginia and at Quantico, the 25 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:07,800 FBI lab, also located in Virginia, is horrendous, particularly at Quantico, 26 00:02:07,879 --> 00:02:14,479 because they handle the FBI's cases and they handle cases for other law enforcement agencies. 27 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:19,039 There are seventeen thousand different law enforcement agencies across the country, and the 28 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:23,599 smaller ones definitely don't have their own labs. So the FBI's backlog is incredible. 29 00:02:23,759 --> 00:02:27,560 And I don't mean that in a good way. We've been waiting in 30 00:02:27,599 --> 00:02:31,479 some cases with the Colonial Parkway murders evidence for a year or more just for 31 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:36,919 let's say three pieces of evidence to be tested. If the results are not 32 00:02:37,039 --> 00:02:38,919 what they want them to be, they might send in more evidence, but 33 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:45,080 then we're literally waiting another year for test results. The good news is there 34 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,759 are private labs around the country, many of whom we've talked to here on 35 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:53,120 Mind over Murder, and with these Sexual Assault Kit Initiative grants, they are 36 00:02:53,199 --> 00:03:00,479 able to test untested rape kits, evidence from unsolved homicides, help identify unidentified 37 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:06,120 remains, etc. One of the things that came out was the recent news 38 00:03:06,159 --> 00:03:09,080 in the Colonial Parkway murders is directly as a result of a SAKI grant, 39 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:15,280 and this result is also partially as a result of another one of these SAKI 40 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:21,319 grants. I want to make sure that we're thanking the Attorney General and the 41 00:03:21,319 --> 00:03:27,240 people that run the SAKI initiative around the country. It's really important and this 42 00:03:27,319 --> 00:03:31,400 is a bright spot because this allows us to use taxpayer funds to take the 43 00:03:31,439 --> 00:03:37,520 evidence to the private labs who have the state of the art equipment and can 44 00:03:37,599 --> 00:03:42,919 turn around things in a matter of weeks or months instead of literally years. 45 00:03:43,319 --> 00:03:47,120 I noticed that after the FBI press release came out, I noticed that the 46 00:03:47,199 --> 00:03:52,879 Virginia State Police, who were also essential to helping solve this case, they 47 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:57,240 issued their own press release, and then the Attorney General sent out his own 48 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,719 press release, and they all deserve credit for or helping to move this case 49 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,879 forward. I know there's lots of places where we're frustrated, but that's actually 50 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:10,319 a bright spot, and I think it's good news for families who are waiting 51 00:04:10,439 --> 00:04:15,199 answers in cases across the country. Yes, absolutely, and we know that 52 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:20,000 there is a tremendous underfunding of this kind of work which needs to be resolved. 53 00:04:20,319 --> 00:04:25,720 It should not be the case that the FBI lab takes a year or 54 00:04:25,759 --> 00:04:28,839 more to be able to process. It should not be the case that they 55 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:30,839 have such a backlog that they're not able to do their work, which is 56 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,279 good work, we should say. The three of us were talking off air 57 00:04:34,439 --> 00:04:39,160 earlier. We were trying to pin down the number of untested rape kits in 58 00:04:39,199 --> 00:04:43,040 the US. We can't even pin that down. We were finding statistics as 59 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,360 variable as twenty five thousand to one hundred thousand. It may even be more. 60 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:50,560 Those are all people and their families and their loved ones who deserve justice, 61 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:56,360 who haven't had justice because again, the kits haven't even been initially tested, 62 00:04:56,439 --> 00:05:00,680 let alone retested. That's an epidemic in this country, and it's something 63 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,959 that needs to get resolved immediately. Absolutely could not agree more. Last episode, 64 00:05:05,079 --> 00:05:10,000 Kate, we were talking a little bit about what we know so far 65 00:05:10,079 --> 00:05:15,959 and also what we don't know about Walter Leo Jackson Senior aka Leo. One 66 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,240 of the things that you had mentioned that I thought was particularly interesting was the 67 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,800 fact that the FBI said this guy's an avid hiker. I don't really know 68 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,000 how they know that. I would be very interested to know how they know. 69 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,240 I'm curious if you could take a couple of minutes before we get into 70 00:05:30,519 --> 00:05:35,399 some more information about Walter Leo Jackson, can you explain a little bit about 71 00:05:35,439 --> 00:05:42,600 the kind of hiking culture around the at and the sort of people not only 72 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,480 that we're hiking the trail, amazing people like the ants that were hiking the 73 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,600 trail, but also one thing that you mentioned in your book was the number 74 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:55,959 of alarming people who were also hiking the at around the time that Lally and 75 00:05:56,079 --> 00:06:00,920 Julie were on their trip to Shenandoah. Can you get to that a little, 76 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,399 because that was probably one of the most alarming parts of your book for 77 00:06:03,519 --> 00:06:09,399 me, is the sort of characters who also end up on the trail who 78 00:06:09,439 --> 00:06:12,839 may not be as upstanding as the rest of us. Sure, and this 79 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,240 was one of the culture clashes that really made a lot of this investigative work 80 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:21,160 difficult. The first and primary culture class was whenever a violent crime happens in 81 00:06:21,199 --> 00:06:27,639 the National Park, that crime investigation becomes the joint purview of the FBI and 82 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,759 the National Park Service law enforcement rangers. And as I say in the book, 83 00:06:30,759 --> 00:06:35,319 those are two very different cultures. And we saw a lot of the 84 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:41,040 infighting that happened just between those two cultures just when it came to how are 85 00:06:41,079 --> 00:06:46,959 we going to bag and catalog and process the evidence from this particular crime scene. 86 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:53,360 So we saw that there's another major culture clash that's happening, and that's 87 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:58,600 between both the FBI and the National Park Service police and the hikers on the 88 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,319 Appalatian Trail. We should say, and I really always need to do this 89 00:07:02,439 --> 00:07:06,639 strongly, especially for my friends at the Appalachian Trail Conservancy, which is the 90 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:13,079 nonprofit arm of the trail that stewards and manages that Lolly and Julie were not 91 00:07:13,519 --> 00:07:16,160 on the at, they were just off of the AT. I think that 92 00:07:16,199 --> 00:07:20,360 gets misrepresented a lot of the time. They had spent significant amount of time 93 00:07:20,439 --> 00:07:25,360 on the trail. At that time in particular, and still today, there 94 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,800 were certain cultural things that happened on the trail. For instance, folks there 95 00:07:29,959 --> 00:07:32,920 rarely go by their given names. They almost always have trail names. Those 96 00:07:32,959 --> 00:07:36,720 trail names change over time, and they're given to you by someone else. 97 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,720 As I say it in the book, at the beginning of a hike, 98 00:07:40,879 --> 00:07:44,480 you may be a little hapless on the trail, and maybe you leave your 99 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,160 stuff all over the place. You may be given the trail name yard Sale, 100 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:54,759 and then that may evolve into something else, so yard arm or whatever. 101 00:07:54,839 --> 00:07:59,480 And so just tracking down these people who may have had multiple trail names 102 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,439 was really tricky, and the folks doing this investigation didn't come from that culture. 103 00:08:03,959 --> 00:08:09,199 One of the really interesting things to me is that the Appalachian Trail Conservancy 104 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,199 sent some of their own people down, both because they weren't getting information about 105 00:08:13,199 --> 00:08:16,040 this crime and so they didn't know how to keep their people safe, and 106 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:22,199 also because they realized really quickly that both of these law enforcement agencies were way 107 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,480 out of their element when it came to parsing this out, so they went 108 00:08:24,519 --> 00:08:28,040 to advocate for the trail and the people on the trail. The other thing 109 00:08:28,079 --> 00:08:31,559 that I think is really important to keep in mind here is again nineteen ninety 110 00:08:31,559 --> 00:08:37,960 six, long before cell phones, long before any smart technology, what hikers 111 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:43,080 on the trail have always done is use trail logs to keep each other safe. 112 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,480 We saw this and the very tragic murder of Ron Sanchez just a few 113 00:08:46,519 --> 00:08:52,759 years ago. The individual in that case responsible for that murder had already been 114 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,279 known to people on their hikes, and so they were leaving notes to each 115 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,960 other in these trail logs saying watch out for this, he's no good, 116 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,559 or whatever else too. So that's how they're communicating with each other, and 117 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:09,039 that's the lifeline of hikers, especially pre cell phones. One of the first 118 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:13,080 things that happened after this murder was at the National Park Service investigators and the 119 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:18,200 FBI came in and took all of those trail logs. So the three hikers 120 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,279 didn't have a way to communicate with each other, and they were understandably terrified. 121 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,720 So there's a lot to that. You mentioned the number of people who 122 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:31,360 were reasonable suspects because of their unsavory past. That was a little bit more 123 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,159 Shenandoora National Park than it was the trail so far as we know. But 124 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:41,639 there were cameras at the entrances to the park that were recording license plates that 125 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:46,399 then investigators were then running against registrations to figure out who was in the park 126 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:52,039 at the time. And as an avid trail user and an avid National park 127 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:58,279 visitor, I was highly disturbed by the number of sex offenders, people who 128 00:09:58,279 --> 00:10:03,600 were evading, people for whom there were warrants for their arrest, who were 129 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,080 in Sherenandoah just that weekend of the crimes as well too, and so that 130 00:10:07,159 --> 00:10:13,039 created a very big pool of potential suspects that I think was really hard to 131 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,360 work through. The other thing that for me became very clear very quickly is 132 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,279 the lack of accounting system for crime in the national parks. And this continues 133 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,960 to be true today. Yes, each park is it is at the purview 134 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:31,440 of the superintendent if how and when crime gets recorded and investigated. So we 135 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:39,240 still to this day, despite internal inspector general reviews by the Department of the 136 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:45,799 Interior. Despite Government Accountability Office reviews, we have no codified reporting system for 137 00:10:45,879 --> 00:10:50,480 crime in our national parks, and we cannot say with any certainty at what 138 00:10:50,879 --> 00:10:54,360 rate it happens, how many murders happen in a year, how many rapes, 139 00:10:54,399 --> 00:10:58,559 how many violent crimes, how much malfeasance occurs at the hands of rangers. 140 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,840 And this again is information that the American public needs to know. We've 141 00:11:03,879 --> 00:11:07,120 been dealing with the National Park Service in the Colonial Parkway murders for thirty seven 142 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:13,679 years. There's no question that the National Park Service doesn't want you to be 143 00:11:13,799 --> 00:11:18,240 thinking about crime when you're enjoying your time in the national park. Even what 144 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,879 we talked about in our last episode, I have still never been able to 145 00:11:22,879 --> 00:11:28,000 get over the fact that Julie Williams and Lolly Winans were brutally murdered. It 146 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:33,320 wasn't a bear attack, it wasn't a murder suicide, it was none of 147 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:41,320 those things. It was clearly a double homicide, and yet they never informed 148 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:46,759 the thousands of people that passed through there that there had been a double homicide 149 00:11:46,799 --> 00:11:52,639 of these two women hiking in camping at the Shenandoah National Park. I've never 150 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,639 been able to get over the fact that the National Park Service got away with 151 00:11:56,879 --> 00:12:01,720 not even telling their visitors that an extremely violent crime had taken place, and 152 00:12:01,759 --> 00:12:05,279 they had no way of knowing whether those other visitors would still be at some 153 00:12:05,639 --> 00:12:09,960 risk. They didn't even know if the offender had left the National Park. 154 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,440 It still shocks me to this day. There was an internal memo that I 155 00:12:13,519 --> 00:12:20,320 quote in the book in which there was a very deliberate decision made to withhold 156 00:12:20,519 --> 00:12:24,080 this information and if asked to deny it. And it was really because of 157 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:31,919 the intrepid reporting of local reporters, including the Washington Blade and LGBTQ plus publication 158 00:12:31,039 --> 00:12:35,320 in Washington, DC. And it was really the work of these local reporters 159 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,679 who kept at it and kept saying, how could this have been a bear 160 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,559 attack? How could this have been a murder suicide? What are you telling 161 00:12:41,639 --> 00:12:46,120 us? And why are you not telling us? It was because of that 162 00:12:46,399 --> 00:12:50,159 bootstrap reporting that the truth came out. And I owe so much of my 163 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,240 work to them and what they were doing day in and day out again and 164 00:12:54,279 --> 00:12:58,960 again from nineteen ninety six onward. One of the things that I love the 165 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:03,559 most about your book is that there is so much healing back the layers of 166 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:09,759 what has previously been hidden for so long, and it's just one bombshell after 167 00:13:09,799 --> 00:13:13,440 another for the first two hundred pages. I'm sitting there and I've been highlighting 168 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,639 and annotating this even more than I did the first time around when I read 169 00:13:16,639 --> 00:13:20,519 it, and I've got whole entire pages where I'm like, oh my gosh, 170 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,759 this is crazy. I can't believe this actually happened. There is so 171 00:13:24,919 --> 00:13:28,240 much You'd use the term mouthfeasance in our last episode, and I think that 172 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:33,159 is true on so many levels, not just with the FBI, with the 173 00:13:33,279 --> 00:13:37,879 NPS as well. This is really just appalling and revisiting the book now for 174 00:13:37,919 --> 00:13:43,399 this reporting, I'm still appalled by it. What if anything can our listeners 175 00:13:43,799 --> 00:13:48,960 do to tell NPS and FBI, Hey, we want some more accountability here. 176 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,840 Is there anything that we can do as National Park users and hikers and 177 00:13:54,879 --> 00:13:56,720 things like that, or do we just have to let this be what it 178 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,960 is. I'm really glad you asked that question, and I think there's so 179 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,720 much that we can do. We feel I think a lot of us feel 180 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,879 disempowered right now, and I think more than a few people feel pretty cynical 181 00:14:07,919 --> 00:14:11,000 about politics in America right now for some pretty good reasons. But yeah, 182 00:14:11,039 --> 00:14:15,039 no, we need to be doing a lot more. And as somebody who 183 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,320 really loves to be outside in the wilderness, I really take to heart what 184 00:14:18,519 --> 00:14:22,679 Roosevelt first said, and that ken Burns echoed that the National Park System, 185 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,360 if it was not America's best idea, it was a really great idea that 186 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:31,159 America had, which is, let's make sure that the wilderness is accessible to 187 00:14:31,279 --> 00:14:35,559 everyone here. That was a great idea that has not happened. The wilderness 188 00:14:35,639 --> 00:14:41,200 is not accessible to differently abled people. It is not accessible to people who 189 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:46,919 identify in what we call socially subordinate groups, so people who identify as queer 190 00:14:48,039 --> 00:14:52,080 or non binary or bipoc or differently abled or whatever else. And we have 191 00:14:52,279 --> 00:14:56,879 not shorn that up. We have not made the wilderness accessible to folks. 192 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,240 So one of the things we can do is insist upon that. The other 193 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,840 thing we can do is we can insist upon better funding for the National Park 194 00:15:03,919 --> 00:15:09,200 Service so that there are qualified rangers and they have the equipment they need to 195 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,039 do the work. We saw a real spite in visitors to the park during 196 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,759 COVID, and that has not abated. So we have even more visitors than 197 00:15:16,799 --> 00:15:20,919 ever, and yet the Park Service continues to atrophy in terms of its funding 198 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:22,960 that's available to it. And the other thing. One of the most shocking 199 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,440 things to me during writing the book was beginning to realize that while there are 200 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:35,200 many very service oriented, diligent, talented individuals doing law enforcement work in the 201 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,159 parks, it is also true that there are people who are not that doing 202 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:45,120 law enforcement in the parks. The great work of Paul Berkowitz, who has 203 00:15:45,159 --> 00:15:48,960 written several books on the subject and who was a whistleblower as a law enforcement 204 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,200 ranger for the part, he identified this very real problem that occurs in these 205 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,799 parks, which is very similar to what we saw with the Catholic priest abuse 206 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,559 that was happening in New England, and that is rangers and their bad behavior 207 00:16:03,919 --> 00:16:11,360 are ultimately rewarded by these lateral transfers and promotions. One of the rangers who 208 00:16:11,399 --> 00:16:15,039 played a prominent role not only in Kathy and Becky's investigation, but also Lolly 209 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:21,399 and Julie's later went on to take evidence without a warrant to put it in 210 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:26,600 an evidence locker when his supervisor insisted that he return it because it was illegally 211 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:32,480 captured. He responded by changing the lock on the evidence locker, and for 212 00:16:32,559 --> 00:16:37,039 that he received a lateral move. That kind of stuff is just not okay. 213 00:16:37,279 --> 00:16:41,919 Policing that and holding the park Service accountable for that, that's really important 214 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,279 as well too. Everybody deserves to feel safe on any National Park Service land, 215 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,679 regardless of any identification or orientation they have, and as a country we've 216 00:16:49,759 --> 00:16:55,080 really sat down on that in ways that are not defendable. One of the 217 00:16:55,159 --> 00:17:00,320 questions that has been asked, not only for Kate but also too, and 218 00:17:00,399 --> 00:17:03,840 I think this is a good time to address it, is whether or not 219 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:08,400 there is any possibility that Leo Jackson might be involved in the Colonial Parkway murders, 220 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:15,839 because there are substantial similarities between Julie and Lalli's murder and Kathy and Becky's 221 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,359 murder ten years previous. And Bill, I'll let you go into that here 222 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,960 in one second. So the question that I think a lot of people rightfully 223 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:29,559 have is could Leo Jackson have been responsible for Kathy and Becky and then graduated, 224 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,039 if you will, onto the travesty that he enacted upon Julian Lalli. 225 00:17:33,559 --> 00:17:38,680 We did find out some information about Leo Jackson, and I'll let you guys 226 00:17:38,839 --> 00:17:42,519 get into that, So whoever wants to start can start on that. Some 227 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:49,319 of the dates of his incarceration I'm talking about Jackson now would preclude his personal 228 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:55,079 involvement in the first three of what we call the Colonial Parkway murder. So 229 00:17:55,240 --> 00:18:00,839 he's incarcerated in Ohio for one of the many rapes that he involved in. 230 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:06,720 He's in jail in eighty six, eighty seven, in eighty eight, Thomas 231 00:18:06,839 --> 00:18:11,920 Dawski, Edward Snobling, and of course now we have an identified suspect in 232 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,839 Robin Edwards, David Nobling, and the disappearance of Keith Colling, Cassandra Haley 233 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:21,720 in eighty six, eighty seven, and eighty eight are precluded because he was 234 00:18:21,759 --> 00:18:26,359 incarcerated during that time. He was out of jail in time for the last 235 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:32,440 of the Colonial Parkway murders, which is happening over Labor Day weekend nineteen eighty 236 00:18:32,519 --> 00:18:36,160 nine, and that's the murder of Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lauer. Not 237 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:40,480 ruling it out, but the investigators that are currently working the case have some 238 00:18:40,599 --> 00:18:45,920 pretty strong suspects in that last one of the Colonial Parkway murders, as well, 239 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:51,440 I don't think that Jackson is involved in the Colonial Parkway murders per sale 240 00:18:51,519 --> 00:18:56,440 at Kateway in as well. I think that it would be difficult, but 241 00:18:56,559 --> 00:19:00,519 not impossible, to make a case that he was somehow able to leave this 242 00:19:00,599 --> 00:19:06,480 incarceration during the period of Kathy and Becky's murder to commit this. I think 243 00:19:06,519 --> 00:19:10,759 we've all gone back and forth, probably in terms of the degree to which, 244 00:19:10,839 --> 00:19:15,640 first of all of the crimes under the category Colonial Parkway murders are in 245 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,279 fact connected or perhaps by the same perpetrator. I think that's obviously been a 246 00:19:18,279 --> 00:19:22,960 big question for people. I think we've maybe all gone back and forth a 247 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,960 little bit on the degree to which Kathy and Becky's crime is connected to Lolly 248 00:19:26,039 --> 00:19:32,160 and Julie's crime. Certainly, it's true that there are some astounding and disturbing 249 00:19:32,319 --> 00:19:36,880 similarities between the two crimes which make it, i think, very tempting, 250 00:19:37,039 --> 00:19:40,920 if not easy, to assume that the same person was involved. But we've 251 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:45,359 never been able to parse that out or unpack that, and so I think 252 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,440 that's probably going to be a question mark until we have some more answers, 253 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,759 particularly where Kathy and Becky are concerned, and the FBI did say in nineteen 254 00:19:52,839 --> 00:20:00,839 ninety six publicly that they were exploring the possibility that the Thomas Dowsk murder not 255 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:07,119 necessarily the other Colonial Parkway murders, that individual double homicide could be related to 256 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,359 the murder of Julie Williams and Lolly Wining. So they all got the parallels. 257 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,240 And I know we don't want to get two graphic here and mindo for 258 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,039 murder, but there are a lot of substantial similarities. When you've got healthy, 259 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:26,960 athletic, outdoorsy lesbian couples killed in a national park on our three day 260 00:20:26,039 --> 00:20:33,640 weekend knives are used, there are definitely similarities. As Kate says, sometimes 261 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,240 an investigator might think, wow, we got to check that out. If, 262 00:20:37,319 --> 00:20:41,160 for example, all these years later, now we've identified as suspect in 263 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:47,440 the Shenandoah case, I think that moves the Colonial Parkway murders, and specifically 264 00:20:47,559 --> 00:20:51,880 Kathy and Becky's murder onto the much less likely list. It's going to be 265 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,440 difficult, if not impossible, for Jackson to be incarcerated in Ohio and killing 266 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:02,680 couples in Virginia. Some of the other Virginia cases. However, there are 267 00:21:02,799 --> 00:21:07,000 gaps in his time in prison, so he's in and out, which is 268 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:14,000 That's probably the whole discussion for another day. Why is this serial rapist and 269 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:22,279 kidnapper? Very short sentences? Yes, remarkably disturbingly short sentences for extreme sexual 270 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,720 violence. And when you look at his dates in and out of prison, 271 00:21:25,799 --> 00:21:29,000 you're like, why is he only serving a couple of years for what sound 272 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:34,079 like absolutely heinous crimes? But in some examples that are worth talking about, 273 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:40,559 he is out of jail during key periods where there are other unsolved murders in 274 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,440 Virginia. And the wrinkle for me, again that we don't know is was 275 00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:48,759 Jackson acting alone in the case of Lolly and Julie? And if Jackson was 276 00:21:48,839 --> 00:21:53,799 not acting alone, if for instance, Jackson was potentially being groomed by a 277 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,319 killer, is it possible and again the likelihood of this, I'm going to 278 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:02,759 say is small. But is it possible that if he was not acting alone, 279 00:22:03,319 --> 00:22:07,160 was that other individuals somehow involved with Kathy and Becky? Again? Probably 280 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,960 unlikely at this point I think we can say. But until we know the 281 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,559 answer, I don't think we should rule anything out. Last time you talked 282 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,920 with us about the ANNs and the two men that they met. There's the 283 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,680 one guy. They were interested in him as a character because he was a 284 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:29,079 through hiker, and it sounds like through hikers are considered cool on some level 285 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:33,640 when day hikers or weekend hikers meet people that are actually doing the full length 286 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,759 of the Appalachian Trail. We suspect that the second man, the one in 287 00:22:37,799 --> 00:22:44,680 the car, could have been Jackson, and certainly physically resembles their recollection nearly 288 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,960 thirty years later. Of course, do we know who the first man is, 289 00:22:48,279 --> 00:22:52,160 the so called thru hiker. We do not. We know who he 290 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,400 is not. We know he is not markovon Its, we know he is 291 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,119 not Daryl Rice, but we do not know who he is. One of 292 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:02,880 the things I'm trying to do right now to trying to unpack other potential crimes 293 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,720 that Jackson may have been involved in, is trying to track down who this 294 00:23:06,799 --> 00:23:12,720 individual is or was. Why this person knew things that no one else knew. 295 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,200 That's always been a big question, That's always been something that readers have 296 00:23:17,319 --> 00:23:21,200 keyed in on, and I think until we have those answers, it is 297 00:23:21,319 --> 00:23:26,680 fair to think that it is a possibility that these two individuals were somehow involved 298 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,559 together We don't know to what degree, but it certainly seems like there was 299 00:23:30,599 --> 00:23:33,799 a distinct connection. They have information they should not have had, and it 300 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:40,880 certainly is something that bears additional research for sure. You're listening to Mind over 301 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:55,119 Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back 302 00:23:55,160 --> 00:24:00,599 here at mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just wanted 303 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,400 to remind you that we have a go fundme effort going on right now. 304 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:10,039 This campaign is designed to help us raise funds to help promote Mind over Murder 305 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,720 and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. We'd love it if 306 00:24:15,759 --> 00:24:21,319 you could support us in any way that you can. Any donation from five 307 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:26,279 dollars to whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will be incredibly helpful. 308 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,880 The link is in the show notes and in our social media pages. 309 00:24:30,799 --> 00:24:34,480 As always, thanks for your support. Now back to Mind over Murder. 310 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,039 One of the things that I was particularly interested in was the report from the 311 00:24:40,039 --> 00:24:44,000 Behavioral Science Unit that you quoted from. Regarding this report, so that our 312 00:24:44,039 --> 00:24:47,359 listeners can hear it too, and then have you assessed okay, given what 313 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,759 the BSU said back then, and given what we know about Leo Jackson, 314 00:24:51,759 --> 00:24:53,839 now how well did these things? Gel? I think we're doing what you 315 00:24:53,839 --> 00:24:56,599 said last time. We're letting the FBI check their work, only we're going 316 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,440 to check it for them. They're really going to like, I'm sure they 317 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:06,160 are. And you know they're wearing t shirts that say we heart Bill. 318 00:25:06,279 --> 00:25:10,559 Kristen and Kate. Right, we've been telling people for a while that we're 319 00:25:10,559 --> 00:25:14,920 off the FBI's Christmas card list, and this is just going to cement that. 320 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,440 Look, if they won't check their work, as Kristen says, I 321 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,079 guess we're going to have to check it for them. This is talking about 322 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,039 the fact that the NPS in Richmond, FBI Field Office had exhausted every lead 323 00:25:26,079 --> 00:25:30,920 and ruled out every suspect. They had worked with the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit 324 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:37,480 viaure Today to construct a profile of the killer. The subsequent report concluded that 325 00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:44,000 the murder of Julie Williams and Lelly Whinings was a sexually motivated crime perpetrated by 326 00:25:44,079 --> 00:25:49,400 one offender acting alone. The offender, the reports authors surmised, had previously 327 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:56,880 demonstrated behavior consistent with sexual offenders, most likely the assailant saw the attack on 328 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,839 Lelly and Julie as an opportunity to act out a personsonal fantasy that linked physical 329 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:06,519 aggression with sexuality. The report also stated that, based on the crime scene 330 00:26:06,519 --> 00:26:11,640 and evidence collected so far, the offender had re selected Julian Lawley as his 331 00:26:11,799 --> 00:26:15,680 victims. He had conducted scrupulous planning to ensure that the crime unfolded based on 332 00:26:15,799 --> 00:26:21,240 his fantasy and with minimal risk of being discovered. Probably, the report concluded 333 00:26:21,279 --> 00:26:23,559 he'd been traveling with a murder kit for some time, most likely in his 334 00:26:23,759 --> 00:26:29,319 vehicle. He was probably a prolific consumer of violent pornography. He liked to 335 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,720 keep tokens from his crimes personal items like underwear, jewelry, or wallets to 336 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,240 enhance his fantasies after the crime. He also probably retained records of the crime, 337 00:26:37,319 --> 00:26:41,200 including his written plans, photographs or drawings, and newspaper clippings, which 338 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,720 he would keep hidden and stored in a way that provided both security and ready 339 00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:48,759 access. I know we're not going to get all of the answers to all 340 00:26:48,839 --> 00:26:52,680 of that, but did the BSU back then do a pretty decent job of 341 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:59,079 profiling Leo Jackson. Yes, but I think one of the questions that has 342 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,680 always been I think a very important one is how did the perpetrator find Lolly 343 00:27:03,839 --> 00:27:10,640 and Julie. They were camping on a disused trail that used to be the 344 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,279 Bridle Trail, and that's bridle as in horses, not wedding attire, and 345 00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:18,640 so they were camping on this disused trail that was very hard to find. 346 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:25,559 Their tent was not visible when you were descending the trail. The National Park 347 00:27:25,599 --> 00:27:32,079 Service rangers responsible for patrolling this area walk past Lolly and Julie's campsite multiple times 348 00:27:32,079 --> 00:27:34,559 when they were searching for the women and did not see the tent. Big 349 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:40,960 question is how did this person find Lolly and Julie. One potential answer is 350 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,559 that either one or both of them had walked up the third of a mile 351 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,680 to the Skyland Lodge and Resort, where they might have gotten a drink or 352 00:27:49,759 --> 00:27:53,039 used the bathroom or the phone or something like that, and the person had 353 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,240 either followed one or both of them back to the campsite. That's one potential 354 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:03,119 scenario even if, and something I thought about in the case of Jackson is, 355 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,039 so far as we know, Jackson had only ever perpetrated rape and kidnap 356 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,559 using one woman at a time, right, it's a lot to take on 357 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:17,720 two. One potential scenario is Jackson followed, for instance, Julie back from 358 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:22,119 the lodge. Julie perhaps went up by herself, which we know they were 359 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,640 not always together, So maybe Julie went up to use the phone or get 360 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,960 a cup of tea or something like that. He saw her and thought she 361 00:28:29,039 --> 00:28:33,200 was acting alone or by herself, and then he followed her thinking he was 362 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,200 following a single woman. That's possible, but still he would have then very 363 00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:41,519 quickly realized that she was camping with another woman and a dog. So whoever 364 00:28:41,559 --> 00:28:45,480 it was, saw the scene and still decided it was a good risk for 365 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,440 them, or he might have been committed to it. In other words, 366 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,599 if he had followed her back and then he had decided he was going to 367 00:28:52,640 --> 00:29:00,240 attack this woman for whatever reason, continues to plunge forward, even with to 368 00:29:00,759 --> 00:29:03,799 women and a dog. From everything I've ever read about Tie, she sounds 369 00:29:03,839 --> 00:29:07,359 like the sweetest dog around. Yeah, so I don't know that he would 370 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:14,160 necessarily attack someone, even if they were attacking his favorite person. We talked 371 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:19,039 about escalation last time. This could be part of that. And then maybe 372 00:29:19,079 --> 00:29:22,680 he's committed to it. He has attacked her, and then the second woman 373 00:29:22,759 --> 00:29:30,359 shows up. There's a lot of different scenarios here that he's clearly prepared himself 374 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,799 to commit this act, because you mentioned a murder kit in our last episode, 375 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,400 and I have no doubt that he came equipped to rape and kill. 376 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,319 The Bau mentions it as well in their profile that they thought he would have 377 00:29:42,359 --> 00:29:45,559 brought a murder kit with him in his vehicle, and I think they may 378 00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:48,279 be right about a fair amount of this. As a matter of fact, 379 00:29:48,279 --> 00:29:51,920 when Kristen was reading them, I was taking them off, and probably for 380 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,400 the first eight or so of the data points that they had mentioned, I 381 00:29:56,519 --> 00:30:00,960 actually was thinking yep. H. As we got a a little further into 382 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,880 the list, I thought, I'm not sure I could answer that question necessarily, 383 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,279 but I couldn't rule it out. So you could see a couple of 384 00:30:07,319 --> 00:30:12,000 scenarios. Sure. One of the things that's always been very strange about this 385 00:30:12,039 --> 00:30:18,240 particular incident, in addition to the fact that the women were pretty fundamentally unfindable 386 00:30:18,359 --> 00:30:22,599 unless you had followed them back from Skyland Lodge, was the staging of the 387 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,480 vibrator, and this was a rabbical that I went down at great length with 388 00:30:26,519 --> 00:30:33,160 some really smart and fabulous feminist scholars who are vibrator experts, and holy how 389 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,599 are they amazing. So this was a vibrator that everybody who knew Lali and 390 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,640 Julie said didn't belong to either one of them. We don't know that conclusively. 391 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:47,240 We do know that, as one expert told me, there were infinitely 392 00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:51,359 better models out there by the time, and this was a pretty rudimentary truck 393 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,319 stop version. So there was the staging of the vibrator. So we always 394 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,279 assumed that by the sheer fact that this vibrator, whether it belonged to Lally 395 00:30:59,319 --> 00:31:03,000 and Julie or perpetrator, that it was so prominently staged at the murder. 396 00:31:03,039 --> 00:31:07,839 Saying that that alone said that there was a significant sexual component to this for 397 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,920 sure, telling that investigators always had that I frankly I think I agree with 398 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,400 and certainly see no reason to disagree with, was that Julie was probably the 399 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,799 primary target, that Lali was probably killed first, and again not to be 400 00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:26,960 too graphic, but her body was found in her sleeping bag in the tent. 401 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,480 Julie was then taken about twenty yards away along with her sleeping pad. 402 00:31:32,079 --> 00:31:37,480 When UV light analysis was completed. On the sleeping pad, there's a very 403 00:31:37,519 --> 00:31:41,599 strange image of what appears to be Julie's calves and what looks like like a 404 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:49,319 BD S and M leather bondage device that's never been explained and certainly was not 405 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,000 among the things that were found at the scene. So all of that led 406 00:31:53,079 --> 00:31:56,880 investigators, and I think rightly, to assume that Julie was more of a 407 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,920 primary target and that there was definitely a sexual component to that. I don't 408 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:06,680 know a lot of the details of how Jackson committed his crimes. I don't 409 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,519 know a lot about those things. I don't know to what degree all of 410 00:32:09,559 --> 00:32:14,720 this tracks with him. Certainly it tracks with a serial rapist in general. 411 00:32:15,079 --> 00:32:19,039 But I think until we know more about the specifics of how Jackson committed his 412 00:32:19,119 --> 00:32:22,240 crimes, we won't know to what degree this might have been a progression or 413 00:32:22,359 --> 00:32:25,680 regression or anything else. I would love for us to have an opportunity, 414 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:31,640 and it would be great to pursue this. The details of Jackson's other crimes 415 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,160 and how he proceeded. We know he was a house painter, which presents 416 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:42,920 a lot of opportunity to observe people's homes, both inside and outside. It 417 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,680 would be great if we are able to get some of the records of some 418 00:32:46,799 --> 00:32:52,720 of these earlier cases back in Ohio where he has committed multiple offenses and served 419 00:32:52,759 --> 00:32:58,319 remarkably short sentences. As we all noted with a groan, it would be 420 00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:02,519 very interesting to find find out how he went about those other sexual assaults. 421 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,559 The bondage piece of equipment, could that be used for restraining purposes as well, 422 00:33:08,599 --> 00:33:13,519 and that might prevent her escape if she was bound together in some way? 423 00:33:14,279 --> 00:33:16,039 Yes, and both women were bound when they were found. We know 424 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:21,920 that this individual brought at least one and potentially two roles of duct tape with 425 00:33:22,039 --> 00:33:24,519 them. We can even determine based on the way that the duct tape was 426 00:33:24,599 --> 00:33:29,440 cut the duct tape was not cut in the same order that it was put 427 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:34,400 on the women, and so one of the FBI forensic investigators had supposed that 428 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,039 the individual, and this is again the chilling organized fashion of this particular crime, 429 00:33:38,319 --> 00:33:43,799 that this individual had taken the time to cut and then hang these strips 430 00:33:43,839 --> 00:33:47,279 of duct tape and then use them. There's some evidence that tape was used 431 00:33:47,279 --> 00:33:52,000 first on one woman and then another and then they were also bound using their 432 00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:55,319 own long underwear. So all of that advantage for all sorts of different reasons. 433 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,920 So we have all of that, We know that the individual used that, 434 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,680 We know that the individual obviously had a knife with them. There seems 435 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:07,680 to be some evidence that the individual had potentially another type weapon with them, 436 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,000 based on the contusions and bruises that the women had on their faces necks and 437 00:34:12,079 --> 00:34:15,159 ears that they had been struck with something that had a very specific shape to 438 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:19,880 it. These are all ems we know in at least one case, Jackson 439 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,920 kidnapped and raped a woman at knife point. As I said on the last 440 00:34:22,039 --> 00:34:27,000 episode, to me, that's a proof of concept here. If he was 441 00:34:27,079 --> 00:34:30,599 kidnapping and raping women at knife point, I think that builds the connection of 442 00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:35,239 him to this case. But yes, we need to know more about him 443 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,079 and his m I think to really understand the degree to which this is and 444 00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:45,280 is not aligned with his other crimes. There's something very workman like about preparing 445 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,800 the strips of tape, and that is what he does for a living. 446 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:55,280 He is a There's something about I remember this from the book and earlier research, 447 00:34:55,719 --> 00:35:00,679 the strips of tate and lining them up for use. It always struck 448 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,920 me as very workmanlike, and that is precisely what he does for a living. 449 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,079 Yes, and I will say, and this is very chilling for me 450 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,599 some of the questions I've always had. We should say that the FBI in 451 00:35:12,599 --> 00:35:15,599 the National Park Service really mishandled this evidence. Right. There was a huge 452 00:35:15,639 --> 00:35:19,519 debate about whether or not it was going to get processed at the crime scene, 453 00:35:19,639 --> 00:35:22,320 whether it was going to get shipped to Quantico. In the end, 454 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,199 what they decided to do was load it up into wheelbarrows, take it up 455 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:30,599 to a ranger's cabin that wasn't being used where they and this just breaks my 456 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:36,719 heart. Hung it up to dry, so untold amounts of evidence fell out 457 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,679 of the sleeping bags and the tents and everything else like that, And then 458 00:35:39,679 --> 00:35:45,440 they decided to process it at that ranger cabin. There may have been a 459 00:35:45,519 --> 00:35:49,239 lot more forensic and DNA evidence than we know about. That said, there 460 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,079 was still not a lot. And one of the more chilling thoughts that I 461 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:57,199 had was, as a painter, are you very equipped with the use of 462 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,840 drop cloths? But then perhaps you took another question that I've always had, 463 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:05,159 and again without being too graphic, it was. This was such a violent 464 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,280 way to kill these two women. It would have been next to impossible for 465 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:15,079 you not to have been wearing their blood on you. This person somehow managed 466 00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:19,159 to get out during We have always assumed this happened during daylight hours because of 467 00:36:19,199 --> 00:36:24,519 how tidy everything was, and this person managed to leave this crime scene undoubtedly 468 00:36:25,079 --> 00:36:30,000 somehow tainted with this woman, with the women's blood, with the murder weapon, 469 00:36:30,519 --> 00:36:34,920 and move unseen. People have always speculated that perhaps he had a change 470 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,719 of clothes with him. Did he, for instance, have like a painter's 471 00:36:38,039 --> 00:36:42,280 GHLS cover el? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Would he have known how 472 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,639 to do that because of his job? Again, that gives me the chills 473 00:36:45,679 --> 00:36:49,719 to say out loud, but I think that I think it's possible, certainly, 474 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,159 knowing what we know about him already, and if we know anything about 475 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:57,920 sexual assault in America, how much you want to bet that he was involved 476 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:02,119 in a lot more sexual assault than he was charged in. What I'm getting 477 00:37:02,159 --> 00:37:08,800 at is this guy is an experienced multiple offender. He knows what he's doing. 478 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:16,000 That experience for him as a multiple offender could help prepare him for an 479 00:37:16,159 --> 00:37:22,239 even more extreme act of violence, which is killing Julian Lawley at the Shenandoah 480 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:28,679 National Park. All of that previous experience for the charged and how much you 481 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:34,000 want to bet uncharged sexual assaults that he was involved in the years prior to 482 00:37:34,039 --> 00:37:37,800 that. He's well prepared on some level, and he knows what he's doing, 483 00:37:38,119 --> 00:37:43,480 and he's bold, and he's audacious, and he's controlled. This was 484 00:37:43,519 --> 00:37:47,960 a very calculated, intellectual, cold blooded crime. In a lot of ways. 485 00:37:49,519 --> 00:37:53,840 The terms that criminologists use is organized versus disorganized. A crime of passion, 486 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,920 a crime that begins as a rape and turns into a murder, are 487 00:37:59,039 --> 00:38:05,280 usually disorganized crimes. They lack that level of sophistication. I think everybody agrees 488 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,119 that this was a very organized, very sophisticated crime, and that that requires 489 00:38:08,159 --> 00:38:15,400 real planning and intentionality and the ability to keep it together. When two very 490 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:20,159 strong women who I'm sure did everything they could to fight for their lives and 491 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:24,400 the lives of their beloved, this was a surmountable challenge for someone. Yeah, 492 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,960 this reminded me of one of the cases that you talked about in your 493 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,599 book, Carrie Stainer. This reminded me actually a lot of Carrie Stainer in 494 00:38:32,639 --> 00:38:36,480 his series of crimes, which, like we could do a whole entire other 495 00:38:36,519 --> 00:38:40,079 podcast on I did want to ask about one other thing that the FBI made 496 00:38:40,079 --> 00:38:46,239 a point of placing in their seeking information poster about Leo Jackson. They had 497 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:52,679 mentioned first that he had two cars. He was using this chestnut brown AMC 498 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:58,079 Eagle thirty and a con Aline van, which I'm just I'm being flippantly calling 499 00:38:58,159 --> 00:39:00,840 the serial killer van, but like it is what it is. But they 500 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:05,239 also made a point of saying that he was known to use temporary tags ault 501 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:10,079 license plates can frequently change vehicles. I'm curious if you think they're going to 502 00:39:10,199 --> 00:39:16,320 try to position him as a possible suspect in their Route twenty nine stockings because 503 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:21,960 they mentioned that information. You they tried awfully hard to position Darryl Rice in 504 00:39:22,039 --> 00:39:24,760 that way, despite the fact that Rice had alibis. I think for almost 505 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,599 all of them, if not all of them, one of the things, 506 00:39:28,639 --> 00:39:30,960 again, as I said on the last episode, as a journalist, I'm 507 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:36,400 always simultaneously listening to what is said and what is not said, and often 508 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,679 it's what's not said that's more interesting to me. During the press conference, 509 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:44,880 they made a point of saying when they knew Darryl Rice was in the park. 510 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:50,639 They did not say, oh, I noticed the same thing. They 511 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:55,239 did not say if and when Jackson was in the park. We have their 512 00:39:55,360 --> 00:40:00,360 excel spreadsheet of all of the license plates of folks who we were in the 513 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:05,440 park that week. Now we should say that one camera at one entrance station 514 00:40:06,079 --> 00:40:09,519 was broken, and so it is not a complete list. That said, 515 00:40:09,599 --> 00:40:15,159 I found it very notable that at no time did they say we know that 516 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:19,199 Jackson was in the park. For instance, on May twenty eight, I 517 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,960 noticed the exact same thing that was real. In fact, they seem to 518 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:24,960 be saying, don't worry about the fact that you're not going to find his 519 00:40:25,039 --> 00:40:30,800 license plate on this spreadsheet because he probably changed his license plate. And sure 520 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:37,000 he probably did. How much evidence do we have here would there have been 521 00:40:37,039 --> 00:40:42,239 a conviction in this case? We don't know. Lots of questions remain. 522 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,880 Dear FBI, please answer these questions. We agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment. 523 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,719 Dear FBI, please answer these questions and show your work. Please help us 524 00:40:53,119 --> 00:41:00,599 trust you, Please help us believe in you. Please please have said over 525 00:41:00,639 --> 00:41:04,840 and over transparency and accountability or what we want from the FBI. So as 526 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,400 Kate said, dear FBI, please show it. Show your work. I 527 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,760 love that, Show your work. The book is trailed one woman's quest to 528 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:15,960 solve the Shenandoah murders. Kater, are you going to be writing a concluding 529 00:41:15,079 --> 00:41:19,239 chapter, an epilogue or something for this? I feel like you would almost 530 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,599 have to. I think we still have to see how this is going to 531 00:41:22,599 --> 00:41:24,880 play out. This is so new, and I think it's changing in real 532 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:30,400 time. I am very fortunate that the book was optioned as a streaming series, 533 00:41:30,559 --> 00:41:35,079 and so I've been putting a lot of my attention into that, and 534 00:41:35,159 --> 00:41:37,079 I think that's probably where a lot of this work is going to appear. 535 00:41:37,159 --> 00:41:40,840 This is still very active to me. I'm still very much investigating that. 536 00:41:42,079 --> 00:41:45,119 So stay tuned, hopefully for some more definitive news on the potential show, 537 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:51,559 and we'll keep unpacking things there for sure. Amazing. Thank you for joining 538 00:41:51,679 --> 00:41:52,800 us, Kate. We appreciate it, and thank you for all the work 539 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:57,280 that you do on behalf of Julie and Lawley and their families and all the 540 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:02,320 other victims in these cases. Work is not unnoticed. It is very thank 541 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,159 You's a production of apps. Thank you and thanks for both of you. 542 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,920 Thank you to your listeners. You two are out there doing God's work each 543 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,920 and every single day, and so are your listeners. And being a part 544 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,079 of this community is I think really important. And I've said this before, 545 00:42:17,119 --> 00:42:22,119 but I'm going to say it again. Takes this village to do this work. 546 00:42:22,159 --> 00:42:25,400 And I am so grateful for the number of sort of citizens out there 547 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,239 who want to take this on with all of us. So please keep at 548 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,280 it, folks, need you all so much. That is going to do 549 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:35,519 it for this episode of Mind Never Murder. Thank you so much for listening. 550 00:42:36,079 --> 00:43:16,320 We'll see an next