1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,759 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,039 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,840 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:49,520 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley and 10 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:54,479 I'm Bill Thomas. Continue in our coverage of the list case that's Long Island 11 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:59,159 serial killer for anybody who is not currently following the news, and we've had 12 00:00:59,159 --> 00:01:03,280 a couple of different stories to talk about today. Bill, what are you 13 00:01:03,359 --> 00:01:06,920 making of all of this coverage on the Long Island serial killing case? Were 14 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,599 you aware of this case before it became so big in that he was a 15 00:01:10,599 --> 00:01:15,159 couple of weeks ago. I've been following this case for years, and folks 16 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,000 that we knew, Billy Jensen and others had also been covering this case in 17 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:23,040 quite some depth, and I always thought that this was a case that was 18 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:30,879 overdue for additional attention. Of course, law enforcement in Suffolk County had been 19 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:38,079 a complete disaster and had really failed the people of Suffolk County and Nassau County 20 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,560 for that matter, in terms of moving this case forward. And it's only 21 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:48,439 finally with the establishment of the new task force and new leadership both at the 22 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,040 District attorney level and at the chief level for the Suffolk County Police Department, 23 00:01:53,280 --> 00:02:00,239 where were finally able to see significant progress made in this case. It's fair 24 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,799 to say that I have been following this case for several years at a minimum, 25 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,439 and I was familiar with it because I had a number of friends introduce 26 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:14,639 the book Lost Girls by Robert Kulker to me. Sadly, it has been 27 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,360 sitting on my shelf for quite a while because I have far more books than 28 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:22,400 I can actually get to at any given time, and this wasn't something that 29 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,879 was immediately on my radar. Now, of course, that we are covering 30 00:02:25,879 --> 00:02:29,719 in this case. I have pulled that book off my shelf and it has 31 00:02:29,759 --> 00:02:34,439 been given sort of premo status, and that is something that I'm looking forward 32 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:39,400 into delving into. I had somewhat of the same issue with Lost Girls. 33 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:46,400 I had also watched several television series about the case, which were quite interesting 34 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:53,800 and it's very tragic. You've got eleven people, including nine women, one 35 00:02:53,840 --> 00:03:00,919 man, and a child, found scattered along the Long Island coast and seemingly 36 00:03:00,039 --> 00:03:05,080 no answers. There were a lot of questions, is this one serial killer? 37 00:03:05,199 --> 00:03:10,120 Is it two? Could Long Island actually have two competing serial killers operating 38 00:03:10,159 --> 00:03:15,159 at the same time. Certainly the arrest of Rex Huerman has got this case 39 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:22,599 moving forward again. Like you, I found myself reaching for Kolker's book Lost 40 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:24,840 Girls, pulling it off the shelf and moving it to the top of the 41 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:30,080 to be red pile. We should mention a couple of things before we start 42 00:03:30,159 --> 00:03:32,520 talking about these stories. Now, at the time that we are recording, 43 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,240 these are breaking news stories. But the time this gets to you our listeners, 44 00:03:38,599 --> 00:03:43,080 they will not be breaking news stories anymore. They will be a couple 45 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,240 of weeks old. Because we are going through the process of building a lot 46 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:51,520 of content as I get ready to go back to school. So I would 47 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,759 call this a true crime news update, except by the time it gets to 48 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:58,319 you, the news will not be news anymore. It will have been several 49 00:03:58,319 --> 00:04:02,000 weeks past. Just please be aware of the limitations and know that it's news 50 00:04:02,039 --> 00:04:05,360 when we recorded it, it just won't be when you hear it. And 51 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,879 the second thing that we want to mention is in our episodes in which we 52 00:04:09,919 --> 00:04:17,680 read the bail application for Rex Herman, we had theorized as to the identities 53 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,879 of the two forensic laboratories that did some of the work in this case. 54 00:04:23,399 --> 00:04:27,240 We had posited that one of the labs was AUSTRAYA and one of the labs 55 00:04:27,439 --> 00:04:31,360 was Authorm. In the time since, the New York Times has outed our 56 00:04:31,439 --> 00:04:35,360 friends at AUTHRAM as being one of the labs that did do the work. 57 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,199 So, in case you have not heard or have not seen the New York 58 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:44,839 Times coverage, it has been confirmed that one of those two forensic labs mentioned 59 00:04:44,879 --> 00:04:48,199 in the bail application is our friends at Authorm Labs. And again, all 60 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,759 we can say to them is great job, guys, Please keep it up. 61 00:04:50,759 --> 00:04:54,920 You're doing amazing work. I'd be willing to bet you an ice dinner 62 00:04:55,040 --> 00:05:00,480 that the hair work done was done by Austraia, because they are the leading 63 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,360 hair lab in the country and have developed highly innovative techniques just in the last 64 00:05:04,399 --> 00:05:11,959 few years allowing them to extract nuclear DNA from the shaft of hair. I 65 00:05:12,199 --> 00:05:17,199 am ninety nine percent certain, although they have not yet been outed in the 66 00:05:17,319 --> 00:05:23,560 media coverage. And remember this case will ultimately probably go to trial. A 67 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:28,000 lot more information will come out in the coming months about who else's work this 68 00:05:28,079 --> 00:05:32,720 case, but I would say very strong chance that Astraia Labs in California did 69 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:36,439 the hair work. Yeah, I agree with you. So we have three 70 00:05:36,439 --> 00:05:41,000 stories that we're going to get into today with regard to the list case. 71 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,519 That is going to include reporting from The New York Times, from People magazine, 72 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,439 and from CNN, and we will encode links to all of that in 73 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:53,399 our show notes as we go. So, the first big development in the 74 00:05:53,439 --> 00:05:59,160 case is that prosecutors have identified the human remains that we're found in twenty eleven 75 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,040 year. Gil Go and so Authorm did the work on this, and they 76 00:06:02,079 --> 00:06:08,120 have identified the victim that was known as Fire Island Jane Doe. They have 77 00:06:08,199 --> 00:06:12,800 identified her as Karen of Vergata, a thirty four year old escort from Manhattan 78 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,920 who went missing on Valentine's Day in nineteen ninety six. I was interested to 79 00:06:17,959 --> 00:06:23,920 note that there was no missing person's report filed on her after she disappeared. 80 00:06:24,079 --> 00:06:30,079 I find that sad and upsetting. Her legs were found. I hate the 81 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,040 idea of disarticulated bodies. I think that's one of the reasons why I was 82 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,639 weird about this case. I hate the idea of remains and disarticulated bodies. 83 00:06:38,319 --> 00:06:42,519 Her legs were found in a black trash bag on Fire Island in April of 84 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,240 nineteen ninety six, that is two months after her disappearance in February, and 85 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:51,519 her skull was found on Tobey Beach around the same time that the remains from 86 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:57,879 ten other individuals were found there, including the victims now known as the gil 87 00:06:57,959 --> 00:07:03,600 Go four, so that set around two ten. This is a terrible story 88 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:10,720 and a terrible aspect to the Gilgo Beach story so far, which is that 89 00:07:10,879 --> 00:07:16,240 for a number of these earlier victims, their bodies were cut up and distributed 90 00:07:16,519 --> 00:07:23,199 in various places, sometimes as far apart as forty miles. And this is 91 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:27,800 one of those situations with Karen Bergata, where her legs were found in a 92 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,480 black trash bag, as you said, on Fire Island, hence the Fire 93 00:07:30,519 --> 00:07:36,959 Island Jane Doe name. And then it's not until two ten that the rest 94 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:45,680 of her remains were found as part of the ongoing search for victims near Gilgo 95 00:07:45,759 --> 00:07:50,680 Beach. Cause of death has not been listed in her case. I'm assuming 96 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:55,800 it's going to take a little bit longer to find that out the list. 97 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:01,399 Suspect Rex Hereman has not been named as a person of interest in her death, 98 00:08:01,319 --> 00:08:05,639 I would say yet. I'm hoping they're going to find a way to 99 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,000 link him to more of these victims, but as of this moment, they 100 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,360 have not named him as a person of interest, and no other suspect has 101 00:08:13,399 --> 00:08:18,839 been named as a person of interest in her murder at this time. It's 102 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:26,399 interesting to note that the DNA profile was created in October twenty twenty two for 103 00:08:26,759 --> 00:08:31,600 the Task Force buy Athram. They've been working on it for a couple of 104 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:39,919 months. Authram did the science the DNA extraction, and then I believe the 105 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:52,600 FBI Forensic Genetic Genealogy team did the actual searching of databases to determine Misforgota's identity. 106 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:56,480 So we don't have a whole lot more in this case, but it 107 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:03,720 is our hope that as the investigation continues to unfold and Athrim continues to do 108 00:09:03,759 --> 00:09:07,639 its work, I'm sure they're doing more of it than just this. I'm 109 00:09:07,639 --> 00:09:11,320 hoping that means that more and more, as more and more victims will be 110 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:16,879 identified and we can start giving names to some of the disarticulated bodies that were 111 00:09:16,919 --> 00:09:20,240 found all up and down the Long Island shore. I do know that to 112 00:09:20,279 --> 00:09:26,679 be the case, and they are continuing the work. As far back as 113 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:33,279 October twenty twenty two, they believe they may have found the family group for 114 00:09:33,639 --> 00:09:37,799 Peaches, one of the other unidentified victims, and they were looking at a 115 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:43,960 family in the Atlanta area, if I'm not mistaken. However, it's a 116 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:50,159 complicated family tree, so tracing back to individuals who might be able to provide 117 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:56,279 a current DNA sample for that family has been I would say slow going because 118 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,559 it's a very complicated family tree, is how it's and put to me. 119 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,720 We are very hopeful though that with the excellent work that Authram is doing and 120 00:10:05,799 --> 00:10:09,039 with the help of Austraia of course, and the FBI labs that more victims 121 00:10:09,159 --> 00:10:13,440 names are going to come out here fairly soon, and that that process will 122 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:18,960 continue until all of the individuals and Voltier are identified. We wanted to turn 123 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,840 to a happier story related to the Long Island serial killings, and that is 124 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,639 that is a report that came in from People Magazine. The good folks over 125 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:31,919 there who have reported I think this is about as happy a story as you 126 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:37,799 can possibly get in relation to a serial killing case. The article that we're 127 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,639 referencing for this from People Magazine, it is titled daughter of Happy Face Keller 128 00:10:43,039 --> 00:10:46,720 starts go fund me to help Go Go Beach suspect's wife. For anybody who's 129 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,720 been around in the true crime space or been to crime Con, you probably 130 00:10:50,919 --> 00:10:56,240 recognize the name Melissa Jesperson Moore. Melissa Moore is the daughter of the Happy 131 00:10:56,279 --> 00:11:01,720 Face Keller Keith Jesperson. If you know that name, it may be because 132 00:11:01,759 --> 00:11:07,840 you watched the TV series Dark Minds starring m William Phelps. Keith jess Person 133 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:15,320 was the serial killer known only as a raven during that TV series. Melissa 134 00:11:15,399 --> 00:11:20,639 jess Person Moore has spoken freely both at crime Con and on her own platform 135 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,399 about the trauma that's carried by families of serial killers. Of course, she's 136 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,679 in a very good place here to talk about what Rex Herman's family may be 137 00:11:28,799 --> 00:11:35,960 experiencing. In a twenty fifteen interview for the TV series Twenty twenty, Melissa 138 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:41,399 Moore stated that relatives of killers are secondary crime victims. In her interview, 139 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,480 she said, we carried the shame and we want to remove that. I 140 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,360 feel in a sense that I'm related to my father, but I didn't cause 141 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,080 the pain. But knowing that my father caused some pain causes me pain. 142 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,360 Got to be a pretty complicated emotion, I would imagine. Sometimes I'll hear 143 00:11:54,399 --> 00:12:01,240 people express a real lack of sympathy for people like Melissa jests person more. 144 00:12:01,919 --> 00:12:07,000 I struggle with this one a little bit, but I do understand that Melissa, 145 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,279 or any family member of a killer, they're not responsible for what their 146 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:16,279 relatives have done, whether they're the daughter or son, or father or mother, 147 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:22,320 for that matter, any relative. How incredibly difficult and painful this must 148 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,759 be, it is such a strange position to be put in, and I 149 00:12:24,799 --> 00:12:28,879 think that is a secondary branch of the club that nobody wants to join. 150 00:12:30,919 --> 00:12:35,000 Nobody wants to be the victim or the family member to a victim of a 151 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,399 murder, but certainly I can't imagine what it is like to be the center, 152 00:12:39,519 --> 00:12:41,960 daughter or as you mentioned, mother or father of a serial killer. 153 00:12:43,799 --> 00:12:48,720 So Melissa more launched to go fund me for the family of LISK suspect Rex 154 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,879 Heireman. Those are his ex wife or soon to be ex wife, I 155 00:12:52,879 --> 00:12:58,559 should say, Asa aller Up fifty nine and her two adult children, and 156 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:03,200 those are the beneficiaries. I went to check on the go fundm earlier today. 157 00:13:03,279 --> 00:13:07,799 They surpassed their first goal of twenty five thousand dollars and they're headed towards 158 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,879 the fifty thousand dollars mark right now. And I did go ahead and put 159 00:13:11,879 --> 00:13:15,879 a link up on our mind Over Murder page for anybody who's interested in taking 160 00:13:15,879 --> 00:13:20,120 a look at the go fundm. It does contain some information from Melissa Moore 161 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,320 and some discussion about why she actually started the go fundmate. This is in 162 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:31,120 part a response to the media coverage of what Rex Hereman's family came back to 163 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:39,639 after that intensive twelve day police search on their home. The pictures that I 164 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:46,639 saw after that search were really disheartening because they came home to a mess beyond 165 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,840 their imagining. I absolutely could not believe how utterly trashed the place was. 166 00:13:50,919 --> 00:13:56,399 Now. I understand they're looking for evidence in a series of homicides. I 167 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:01,120 get that, but it looked like the whole entire place had been ransacked beyond 168 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,840 belief. In a statement two People magazine, miss Ella Up said, quote, 169 00:14:05,879 --> 00:14:09,639 I had three cats, litter boxes were a struth thrown on top of 170 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:15,120 everything. My pictures were thrown all over the place. My couch was completely 171 00:14:15,159 --> 00:14:18,360 shredded. I don't even know if there's any parts to the couch left. 172 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:24,159 So it's looking just based on those photos that Assa and her children are having 173 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:31,000 to essentially start over, start from scratch, rebuilding even basic household needs. 174 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,799 I guess, honestly. One thing that I had never really taken into consideration 175 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,080 as part of a search for clues and evidence is what that must do to 176 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,840 the house when you have a crew in there searching for evidence for twelve solid 177 00:14:43,919 --> 00:14:46,279 days. I don't know if that had ever crossed my mind, Bill hit 178 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,039 it cross yours? No, I don't think so. I do understand how 179 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:56,080 the house could effectively be dismantled, though, because they were really taking a 180 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:01,519 close look, and with this suspect being an architect and having lived in that 181 00:15:01,559 --> 00:15:05,000 house for decades, that's actually the house I believe he grew up in, 182 00:15:05,559 --> 00:15:11,639 and there was a concern that there could be hidden evidence, So that required 183 00:15:11,679 --> 00:15:16,759 a tremendous amount of destruction, I would say, in order to look into 184 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:22,039 every nook and cranny of that house. I want to quote from Melissa's go 185 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,679 fund page, she says, quote today I have an opportunity to use my 186 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,679 voice to help Asa, who isn't in a place to speak about the terror 187 00:15:30,679 --> 00:15:35,279 and horror she and her family are experiencing at this moment. Well, people 188 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,799 may assume Asa has the funds to start a new life. The assumption is 189 00:15:39,919 --> 00:15:45,080 just that the funds are to support ASA and she can direct on what is 190 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:50,039 the highest priority basic needs for herself and adult children, to restore the home 191 00:15:50,159 --> 00:15:54,559 as a whole, as evidence collection, damaged or destroyed, many critical household 192 00:15:54,559 --> 00:15:58,399 items, divorce costs, and any other needs she may have that is not 193 00:15:58,559 --> 00:16:02,519 listed here. It looks like she's really trying to make sure that Assa and 194 00:16:02,559 --> 00:16:06,879 her two kids have everything that they might need so that they can escape from 195 00:16:06,919 --> 00:16:11,399 this previous life with Rex. Huerman and start something brand new. Understand that 196 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,600 people may not be as sympathetic as they might, but I think if you 197 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,240 step back a little bit, as much as we might be shocked by this 198 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:25,879 horrible series of crimes and the recent arrest of Rex Huerman, as far as 199 00:16:25,879 --> 00:16:30,440 we can tell, investigators don't believe that Asa, his wife, has any 200 00:16:30,559 --> 00:16:36,600 role in this series of murders whatsoever, nor do his children, who are 201 00:16:36,639 --> 00:16:40,919 both adults at this point. I hope that we can all look at this 202 00:16:41,039 --> 00:16:45,639 and realize that these people, the wife, the two children, are victims 203 00:16:45,679 --> 00:16:48,720 too. Absolutely. I think that's a great place to leave that on. 204 00:16:48,519 --> 00:16:52,919 And then our third story with relation to the Long Island serial killer today is 205 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,080 one that I had not heard about. I think that's largely because I have 206 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:02,879 not yet had a chance to read Robert Kolker's book Lost Girls. But the 207 00:17:02,919 --> 00:17:07,519 reporting from CN here was truly excellent, and I was really, I don't 208 00:17:07,559 --> 00:17:11,039 want to say I was happy to read the story. I was moved by 209 00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:17,480 this story, and it definitely continued this idea that a crime does not just 210 00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:23,039 happen to one person, it happens to whole families. It causes concentric circles 211 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:29,920 to ripple outward from it. We're going to quote from a story from CN 212 00:17:30,839 --> 00:17:36,559 titled Unintended hero A mother's quest to find her daughter led to the eventual arrest 213 00:17:36,599 --> 00:17:41,200 of the suspect in the Go Go Beach serial killings. This particular piece from 214 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,400 CN, this is a longer piece than what I normally expect from them, 215 00:17:45,519 --> 00:17:51,759 delves into the mother of Shannon Gilbert. Her name is Maury Gilbert, and 216 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:56,400 she worked very hard as the family member of a first game missing person the 217 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:02,519 name murder victim to bring attention to her daughter case, and ultimately she herself 218 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:07,160 was murdered very tragically by another of her daughters. But I want to get 219 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:12,079 into this very interesting story that came out of Shannon Gilbert's case. So for 220 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:17,559 anyone who's not familiar with Shannon Gilbert, she went missing on May one, 221 00:18:17,759 --> 00:18:22,319 twenty ten, at the age of twenty three. Her remains were not found 222 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:27,160 until December of twenty eleven. At the same time that Shannon's remains were found, 223 00:18:27,559 --> 00:18:33,359 the remains of the other victims in the Gilgo four killings were found as 224 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:40,680 well. So on the morning of her disappearance, Shannon had traveled with her 225 00:18:40,759 --> 00:18:45,680 driver from Manhattan to meet a client at the client's home in Oak Beach, 226 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:51,680 Long Island. Bill, are you familiar enough with Long Island to tell, 227 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,079 like, what is the relationship between Oak Beach and Gilgo Beach? Are they 228 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,079 near each other? Yeah, They're quite close. They're along the same stretch 229 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:03,720 of coastline. Okay, Shannon went to meet a client. Shannon was, 230 00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:07,960 like many of the other victims, a sex worker. I'm going to quote 231 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:15,559 from CN here about the circumstances around Shannon's disappearance. Quote. Gilbert appeared irrational 232 00:19:15,839 --> 00:19:21,079 at some point, and the man contacted the driver, and this man would 233 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,519 be the client she was going to see. According to a Suffolk County Police 234 00:19:23,599 --> 00:19:30,599 online summary of the gil Go Beach homicide investigation, she fled on foot and 235 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:36,799 approached two homeowners in the area before she vanished. At some point or another. 236 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,920 When she was attempting to flee, we're not sure from what she made 237 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,400 a nine one one call during which she screamed, they're trying to kill me. 238 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:52,160 However, an analysis by the FBI and a psychiatrist of the nine one 239 00:19:52,279 --> 00:19:56,200 one called Gilbert mate at the time found that her death was not consistent with 240 00:19:56,279 --> 00:20:00,880 her being the victim of violence or of a violent offender. I feel like 241 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,440 we need to take a second and talk about that. I'm not sure where 242 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,160 that came from. If someone makes a nine one one call saying they're trying 243 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:15,640 to kill me, why wouldn't you. I'm just concerned and curious. Why 244 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,920 would that not be seen as a matter of concern to someone. If someone's 245 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,799 trying to kill me or I think someone's trying to kill me and I'm screaming 246 00:20:22,839 --> 00:20:26,039 it into the phone, why would they say that's not consistent with her being 247 00:20:26,039 --> 00:20:30,119 the victim of violence? I don't know. And then, of course, 248 00:20:30,559 --> 00:20:34,119 as the story continues, not just this story, but the coverage in general, 249 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:41,799 Suffolk County police seem to believe that Shannon Gilbert was not ultimately a murder 250 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:48,599 victim, which I think is ludicrous. You're listening to Mind over Murder. 251 00:20:48,599 --> 00:21:03,400 We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 252 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:10,200 Mind over Murder. Yeah, it's very frustrating and upsetting to me. Now. 253 00:21:10,279 --> 00:21:12,680 Granted, okay, I guess I had to say, maybe we need 254 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:18,119 to. Both Shannon's driver and the man that she was visiting were investigated and 255 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,799 cleared of any involvement in her death. At that point, the investigation into 256 00:21:22,799 --> 00:21:26,519 Shannon's disappearance just seemed to dry up. As you said, Bill, any 257 00:21:26,519 --> 00:21:33,480 particular reason why that might be. I think this is where you just have 258 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:41,079 to condemn that previous administration in Suffolk County in the strongest possible terms. I 259 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,119 don't think they did a good job on any of these investigations, which is 260 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,160 one of the reasons why this case dragged on for more than a decade. 261 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:56,200 I think one of the reasons why this case didn't move forward is because these 262 00:21:56,279 --> 00:22:00,240 victims were sex workers and they were not taken seriously. One of the key 263 00:22:00,279 --> 00:22:06,440 players involved was quoted as saying that it was a good thing that this killer 264 00:22:06,559 --> 00:22:10,640 or killers were focusing on sex workers, because that meant that everybody else was 265 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:18,279 safe. Talk about treating these young women as disposable. To this day, 266 00:22:18,799 --> 00:22:25,799 Suffolk County has insisted that Shannon Gilbert's death was accidental, which I find extremely 267 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,119 hard to understand, particularly since doctor Michael Boden, who's been a guest on 268 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:36,920 our podcast, was asked by the family to conduct a private autopsy, and 269 00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:41,799 his finding core He thought that Shannon Gilbert had not died of exposure out there 270 00:22:41,839 --> 00:22:47,000 in the marsh, but had actually died as a result of homicidal violence. 271 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:52,359 She's a murder victim, and yet it appears that the folks in Suffolk County, 272 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,240 at least for the last decade or more, have blithely gone about their 273 00:22:56,279 --> 00:23:00,559 business thinking, oh, she had some sort of psychiatric break down and headed 274 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:06,960 off into the marsh where she died from exposure. It's ludicrous. Shannon's mother, 275 00:23:07,039 --> 00:23:11,920 Marie really went about putting pressure on the police to take her daughter's disappearance 276 00:23:11,279 --> 00:23:15,480 seriously. She said exactly what you did, Bill, that the investigators in 277 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,319 the case were just dragging their feet and taking their time on it because the 278 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:25,519 victims in the case were sex workers. I'm going to quote from Robert Kulker 279 00:23:25,599 --> 00:23:29,119 here. He is the author of Lost Girls, which is the book of 280 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,279 record so far on the Long Island serial killer case, and he had this 281 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,160 to say about Mari. Of all the family members, Mari was the one 282 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,519 who got the most out of the police, forced them to do things they 283 00:23:41,559 --> 00:23:45,000 otherwise wouldn't, and she didn't just make a lot of noise. The experience 284 00:23:45,039 --> 00:23:49,680 of fighting on behalf of her daughter, Shannon transformed Mari too. Mary was 285 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,200 the one with the most provocative personality. She was the one who, when 286 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,640 things started to get quiet, would stand up and make some noise and make 287 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,880 sure the police responded. They remind people that they were real human beings at 288 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:06,240 stake here and that this was not just a Hannibal lecture movie. I know 289 00:24:06,319 --> 00:24:11,440 that sounds like somebody else. I know, ga noise to remind the police 290 00:24:11,559 --> 00:24:14,960 that hey, we're still here. I have no idea what you're talking about. 291 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,799 So in twenty sixteen, Mary Gilbert and her family's lawyer held a press 292 00:24:18,839 --> 00:24:25,119 conference to announce the results of an independent autopsy, as you mentioned, performed 293 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:30,000 by doctor Michael Boden, which found that Shannon's death was consistent with homicidal strangulation, 294 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:36,440 but there still was no definitive cause of death listed. And as we 295 00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:41,160 talked about with doctor Boden a few weeks ago, he feels very strongly and 296 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,680 I'd have to agree that his job, the job of the medical examiner, 297 00:24:45,319 --> 00:24:49,920 is to this firm and cause of death and provide as much information as possible, 298 00:24:51,519 --> 00:24:56,599 not necessarily to please the police. And as he said, medical examiners 299 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,960 do work very closely with the police, but they to be careful that their 300 00:25:02,039 --> 00:25:07,519 findings are not influenced by those close working relationships. He wasn't able to say 301 00:25:07,599 --> 00:25:12,000 definitively what the cause of death was, but he did believe that she was 302 00:25:12,079 --> 00:25:18,079 murdered and that it wasn't a matter of her wandering off into the Martian dying 303 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:25,200 of exposure. So Marie Gilbert has maintained over the years that her daughter was 304 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:33,279 the victim of a homicide. Rather, unfortunately and ironically, Marie herself became 305 00:25:33,799 --> 00:25:40,400 a homicide victim. In July of twenty sixteen. Marie Gilbert was murdered by 306 00:25:40,839 --> 00:25:45,319 her daughter, Sarah. According to a forensic psychologist, Sarah was suffering from 307 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:52,119 acute symptoms of schizophrenia at the time that she killed her mother. Sarah actually 308 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:57,640 invited her mother to her home because she said she was hearing voices. She 309 00:25:57,839 --> 00:26:03,599 stabbed Marie two hundred and seventy seven times with a fifteen inch kitchen knife, 310 00:26:03,759 --> 00:26:07,759 bludgeoned her to death with a fire extinguisher, and then sprayed the fire extinguisher 311 00:26:07,839 --> 00:26:12,200 foam into her mouth to drown her. I cannot imagine anything more awful and 312 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:18,440 or more tragic, terrible story, and as you mentioned that ripple effect, 313 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:26,200 Kristen, this is an extreme and very sad example of how Shannon's death led 314 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:33,519 to our sister's mental breakdown and then ultimately to their mother, Mari's death. 315 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,400 Yeah, the longtime attorney for their family, John Ray, stated that Sarah 316 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:44,160 was driven mad quite substantially by the death of her beloved sister. She looked 317 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,640 up to Shannon as a demigod, and she was broken hearted by what happened, 318 00:26:47,759 --> 00:26:52,319 and it was all simmering in that mind all the time. Just terrible, 319 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,440 awful, tragic circumstances here see, and actually referred to them as Hamlet 320 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:02,920 like circumstances, which points to the for their reference. On the morning of 321 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,240 Maury's murder. The other there are four sisters in the family, all with 322 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,039 s names, so that makes us a little more complicated. But Sherry stated 323 00:27:11,079 --> 00:27:14,319 that on the morning of Maury's murder, Sarah called her and told her that 324 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,240 she was hearing voices referring to her mother as the devil and a bad god 325 00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:23,000 and directing her to kill her mother. Absolutely horrible. The youngest sister, 326 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:29,720 Stevie, testified for the prosecution at her sister's trial, stating that Sarah's relationship 327 00:27:29,759 --> 00:27:33,839 with her mother was strained at that point. Her mother had obtained custody of 328 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:38,799 Sarah's son following an incident in February twenty sixteen in which Sarah drowned a puppy 329 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,880 in front of her child, So clearly this was a long ongoing, long 330 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:48,119 standing mental issue that needed to be taken care of. But she was described 331 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:53,119 as having been mentally and emotionally disturbed by the death of her sister. So 332 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,400 ultimately, Sarah was sentenced to twenty five years to life in prison for the 333 00:27:57,519 --> 00:28:03,400 murder of her mother. Her lawyer tried for the insanity defense, but the 334 00:28:03,519 --> 00:28:08,000 jury ultimately said, we have no doubt the defendant suffers from a debilitating mental 335 00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:12,680 illness that blurs the line of fiction and reality, and we are certainly sympathetic 336 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:18,640 to the difficult life circumstances she has endured. The proof, however, reasonably 337 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,319 supports the jury's finding that at the time of the killing, defendant had the 338 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,519 substantial capacity to know and appreciate but the nature and consequences of her conduct, 339 00:28:26,839 --> 00:28:33,799 and that such conduct was wrong. Since that time, the two remaining members 340 00:28:33,839 --> 00:28:37,759 of the Gilbert family, Sherry and Stevie, have been the ones to carry 341 00:28:37,759 --> 00:28:41,720 the torch as you will, with Shannon and her case. So Sherry, 342 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,400 who was the second oldest daughter, posted on the Facebook page praying for Shannon 343 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:51,680 Gilbert with regard to Rex Human's arrest, the time effort in dedication my mom 344 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,119 and I put into this case wasn't wasted. I wished, hoped, and 345 00:28:55,240 --> 00:29:00,039 prayed for this day. I'm glad I'm still alive to see it. I 346 00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:08,799 hope that some consolation and many people actually feel that Shannon deserves credit for sparking 347 00:29:10,079 --> 00:29:15,559 the investigation into the Go Go Beach four and the Long Island serial killings, 348 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:21,359 because had she not called nine to one one that night, this case might 349 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:26,200 have never moved forward, and those bodies might still be out there along Ocean 350 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:33,079 Beach Boulevard with no one looking for them. Exactly. I'm gonna let Robert 351 00:29:33,119 --> 00:29:37,319 Kulker, the author of Lost Girls, have the final word on this one. 352 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,119 He said, quote, Mari understood that one way of finding at least 353 00:29:41,119 --> 00:29:45,240 a shred of meaning in the loss of her daughter was that her disappearance led 354 00:29:45,279 --> 00:29:48,839 to the discovery of those four women several months later, and that without Shannon 355 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,079 there would be no case and there would be no search for the killer. 356 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:59,799 Exactly as she said, Bill, which means that Shannon herself is the unin 357 00:30:00,039 --> 00:30:03,119 pended hero and the title of the CNA article, but I would also argue 358 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,960 that her mother, Marie was also a hero as well and trying to keep 359 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:12,559 her daughter's case alive and active. I'm just sorry that Mary's not alive today 360 00:30:12,759 --> 00:30:21,160 to see finally some small degree of justice moving forward in her daughter's disappearance and 361 00:30:21,279 --> 00:30:26,039 murder. Yeah. Absolutely, there are so many facets to this case, 362 00:30:26,119 --> 00:30:30,839 Long Island Serial Killer Case or gil GO four, and we are going to 363 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:36,160 continue to explore those. We hope that you've enjoyed our reporting so far. 364 00:30:36,759 --> 00:30:41,279 We've had our three episodes, and we've also had our delightful interview with Joe 365 00:30:41,359 --> 00:30:45,680 jack Alone, who is a expert on the list case, and we're looking 366 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,559 forward to bringing you more coverage of stories related to this case as it continues 367 00:30:49,599 --> 00:30:55,039 to unfold over the next couple of months. Bill any funnel words on the 368 00:30:55,079 --> 00:30:59,039 subjects. No, I think that covers it. That's going to do it 369 00:30:59,119 --> 00:31:02,119 for this episode of Mind Over Murder. If you like what we're doing here 370 00:31:02,119 --> 00:31:06,359 on the podcast, please leave us a rating or review, or preferably both, 371 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,319 on any of the podcast platforms that you frequent You can also buy our 372 00:31:11,319 --> 00:31:15,160 merchandise at Tea Public. Go look for mind over Murder and see what all 373 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,279 we've got. You can get just about anything, t shirts, mugs, 374 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,839 sweatshirts, topebags, all sorts of things. So please represent your favorite podcast 375 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,680 by buying some of our merch that's gonna do it for this episode of mind 376 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,440 Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 377 00:31:41,599 --> 00:31:45,640 Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. 378 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:52,160 Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by 379 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,640 Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is 380 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,839 distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, 381 00:32:02,039 --> 00:32:07,200 Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 382 00:32:07,279 --> 00:32:10,920 Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 383 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:16,000 Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.