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Welcome to episode eighty two of Get
Out a Live, a bi weekly podcast

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00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,000
about in law tax, why they
happen, and how we can avoid them.

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I'm your host, Ashley, and
first of all, thank you all

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so much for being so patient with
me as I took a break for the

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summer, and also have to thank
you to those of you who take a

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second to leave reviews for this podcast. I am now reading one each episode.

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This episode's review is from m Joe
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I can respond to your reviews,
said, I love this podcast so much.

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Episode brought me to listen to Get
Out a Live. Thank god it did.

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Ashley is an amazing storyteller and Nick
is hilarious. It's always fun to

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get it in about a week or
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administrative stuff aside. Now let's get
into our episode, because it's a long

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one. It's a good one.
It is once again a more traditional get

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out a live episode talking about a
collection of stories. And this time I

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switched it up because I invited an
old guest back, and this time I'm

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telling that guest stories and we're reviewing
them in real time as the guest hears

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them. So without further ado,
please enjoy this episode all about Mountain lions

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with Petro's Chrisofus. Oh. I
am Petros Petros Chrisoffus. I am a

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wildlife biologist that specializes in human wildlife
conflict in California. I am the owner

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and sole member of Petator Detection and
Deterrence in California Central Valley and the surrounding

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mountains, and our mission is to
help people co exist with wildlife using non

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lethal means. Yeah. I just
wander around deserts and forests and stuff like

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that and help people that have some
sort of conflict and how to mitigate it

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properly. Yeah. So, I
mean we last talked, like I said,

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in twenty twenty one about mountain lions, and I was curious since then,

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how has your work changed and what
are the types of Like has there

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been a shift in the type of
conflicts that you've been seeing? How has

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it changed. There's been a lot
more focus lately in well, we've had

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a couple of wet years in California, so that's definitely changed a lot in

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terms of where the scope of the
conflict is because water is much more or

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was much more widely available during those
two years. It used to be at

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least when you put a camera in
a watering area or an area that has

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water in particular, you would see
livestock and mount lions exists in that space.

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And now it's just kind of all
over the place because there is a

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lot more water available, so livestock
don't feel pressure to go into a particular

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area, or if they have water
set out for them by ranchers, the

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mount lions might not necessarily visit that
water because there's more water available. So

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they've become i would say, a
lot more unpredictable in terms of where to

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find them in the area. And
it's weird because it used to be that

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I was able to go to a
ranch or homestead and pinpoint areas that I

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knew were definitely conflict hot spots because
I'm like, yeah, you've got a

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water tank here that a mountlon's going
to visit, or a creek or whatever.

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And now it's becoming a little bit
more diverse in terms of hot spots

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and where things might be. There's
been more and more urban cases or peri

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urban cases, you know, people
living in cabins and stuff like that,

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definitely noticing them more. I think
it's also partially has to do with an

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uptick in usage of the mountains,
primarily because there's been more water, you

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know, so some of the lakes
and some of the areas the creeks that

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were dry before now are getting visitors, so there's more people spotting them,

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there's more rain camera footage. But
yeah, it's kind of become more i

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would say, more slow, and
more geared towards humans and actual like humans

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worrying about mount lions as opposed to
a mountlon's killing livestock still happens, It's

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always going to happen, but I
think with the ability of people to move

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their livestock to moral areas because of
the water, especially because there's also much

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more grass everywhere, so people can
move their sheep or their goats to areas

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that weren't available before. It's just
kind of changed from that perspective. So

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more human focused than livestock focus now, I guess, yeah, because I

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think the last time we talked,
there was a lot of wildfires, and

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I think one of the bigger takeaways
that you had last time was that,

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like, the wildfires are pushing the
mountain lions in areas they normally wouldn't go

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to because they needed water and there
was none. So now it seems like

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it's shifted and now they're not nearly
as reliable for you someone who's trying to

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find them, which I'm sure can
be frustrating, but I mean, I

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guess it's good that they're not in
those places as much anymore. I don't

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know. Yeah, yeah, So
like this year again, we've had a

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couple like, we've had a bunch
of fires springing up this year, but

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the last couple of years have been
really knock on wood like relatively slow when

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it comes to fires, and I
think partially because there wasn't much to burn

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anyway, right, But even so, the you know, wet water years,

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cooler temperatures makes the ground a lot
harder to spark up when there is

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you know, lightning or stuff like
that. And the other thing as well

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is that after a fire, you
know, there's a lot more primary vegetation

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like grass, which deer tend to
like. So a lot of areas that

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before deer weren't commonly found in because
there wasn't a lot of forging to be

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had now are foraging habitats. And
so it went from moutline seeking refuge and

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food sources and water and areas that
they weren't before because they were getting pushed

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to fires to I think, obviously
I don't have the data to support this.

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This is just something that I'm seeing
on the ground by myself, but

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I think that they're going back to
those areas that burned up before because they're

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especially now a really good source of
prey, you know, because there's a

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lot more primary vegetation that deer do. Like yeah, so yeah, yeah,

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And can I guess going off of
that, can you give us an

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update on in general, like the
mountain lion populations in California, Like,

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how many do we have? How
are they doing? Yeah? Just last

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year? Well, I guess it's
this year right now. California Fishing Wildlife

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did a rough estimate and I think
the population ranges between four thousand to six

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thousand, with the more conservative approach
of like four thousand, five hundred across

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the whole state. It's a decent
number. You know, mountlines here are

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not there's no hunting season for them. You are not allowed to shoot a

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mountaine unless if you have a depredation
permit or the state does it, or

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the federal levels do it. It
does happen obviously, and I'm sure poaching

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exists, but there's no official avenues
of like hunting. The population is that

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a lot? I am not sure. The state is a pretty big state,

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and you can find mountains and areas
that you wouldn't really think exist.

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So I think it's less than I
would have thought it was. I would

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have thought they would be around ten
thousand or so in the state, but

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obviously that's their numbers. And they
do suffer from you know, as it

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pops up all the time when they
use the highway. Mortalities and those are

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just the ones reported, and they
also you know, poaching, a lot

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of identicide impacts them, and so
those are practices that haven't really there's a

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lot of push to change them.
And obviously we have the new wildlife passages

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that are being you know built up
everywhere, including the one in LA that

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a lot of people advocated really really
hard for. And so yes, and

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obviously we lost iconic p twenty two
right the age of I believe thirteen.

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So yeah, so those are the
things. It seems like someone else has

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been spotted in these areas, and
couple of like backyard footages and stuff like

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that. I don't know if it's
a resident line that's going to stay or

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what. Yeah, but hey,
you know, like the famous Jurassic Park

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Cote says like life will find a
way. Yeah it works. Yeah.

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I was curious because, yeah,
P twenty two with the infamous line we've

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talked about before, but in California, I was curious, maybe with P

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twenty two's passing, does it seem
like there was more advocacy for mountain lions

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in the state of California. Yeah, I mean, you know, like

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they he passed after the Wildlife pass
was already a thing, right, the

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structures and everything we're getting put into
place. I think there's definitely he's still

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the icon for the highway passes,
for the wildlife corridors, and I think,

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you know, as well as as
a lot of advocacy for the use

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of not using redenticides for that because
it does it does impact every apex predator,

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right, Yeah, and everything between
the actual micets themselves to everything over

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So I think it's just I think
the mountain Lions continue to be that symbol

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of like, hey, this is
what can happen if you use it and

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decide, you know, even if
you hate the animals, it's not a

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pretty fate. And so I think
that's definitely something that is used, not

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manipulated or anything, but I think
that's just something that has been used to

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show to people like, hey,
you know, this is an impact of

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your actions. Yeah. Other than
that, I think it was just a

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positive you know, and I think, you know, there's people that can

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talk about B twenty two a lot
more than I have, that have been

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way more involved in this, But
I think it was just from my perspective,

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it was really positive to see so
many people like actually mourning his passage,

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you know, like he was clearly
beloved in the city of Los Angeles,

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and even to the very end,
he was one of those things it

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was like an icon for the area. So yeah, yeah, I was

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going to say I had seen an
article from last month June that a mountain

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lion was actually found dead on the
Venture Freeway close to the construction of the

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new Wildlife crossing, which is devastating
and also great showcase of why it's needed.

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It's sad when that happens, and
you know, it's also just one

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of the things that I tell people
is like, that's the one that's been

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reported. Yeah, you think about
how many don't get reported for whatever reason,

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right, and it's not just the
major highways. But yeah, it's

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sad. But I guess from a
very macro perspective like that, which usually

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whild that biologists tend to take sometimes, is that at least its like a

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suitable habitat that animals used to cross, right, Yeah, so hopefully that

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crossing is going to reduce the deaths. So yeah, and I'm sure a

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lot of work went into it before, Like it's not like they just randomly

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picked a spot and said we're going
to do this. Of course, still,

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you know, it's positive that my
lines are going to use it.

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It's sad that the evidence for it
is a death right. Yeah, And

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so I was seeing that it's estimated
to be completed by late twenty twenty five

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or early twenty twenty six, and
it's going to be the largest of its

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kind in the nation. So I'm
really hoping that this is the thing that

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makes it more popular and then you
us, because it's so needed everywhere,

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but especially there where there's so many
people. Yeah, and you don't really

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get a sense of of that particular
highway until you drive it too, you

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can't, like yeah, and it
just like I've driven a couple of times

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and I've thought about trying to get
to one end of the highway, not

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even across the whole thing, right, and I'm just like, yeah,

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I die a thousand times, Like
there's no no ifs, so broughts about

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it, like and mountains are faster
than I am. Yeah. Yeah,

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So it's good. It's good that
it's being done. Hopefully it'll encourage especially

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you know if and I'm sure that
it's going to be done, they're going

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to put cameras out to see what
crosses and everything like that, and hopefully

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that footage can kind of encourage way
more people to you know, either funded

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or help funded or advocate for it
or stuff like that. So or just

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like slow down so you'll see things. Yeah, and you know, like

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you see you see the ones from
the under passes Washington and there's some really

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interesting stuff you know popping up and
who uses it and what time they use

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it and predation along those areas too. It's really cool. It's really it's

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really interesting thing. Well, yeah, we saw that what was it two

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years ago? Now, we saw
that video from an underpass of a coyote

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and a badger hunting together. Yeah, so it's like things like that,

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like we get the opportunity to see
cool little wildlife friendships we would never see

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before. So exactly. Oh all
right, Well, this episode's going to

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be a little different where of course
we've had you on the pod before and

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had questions for you about mount in
lions, but this time I'm going to

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tell you mountain lion stories and we're
going to go over them in real time.

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So we've got I believe I said
four to do, and then we're

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gonna end with some like mountain lion
pet stuff, and of course we're gonna

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once again go over ways that everyone
can stay safe a ouur mountain lions.

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But I just want to reiterate at
the top, like we are so much

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more of a threat to them than
they are to us, and these are

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not common occurrences, so just we
will all keep that in mind for pretty

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much any animal we talked about before
we get started. So the first attack

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we're going to talk about actually happened
in your neck of the woods, which

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is why I thought to talk to
you today. So on March twenty third

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of this year, and you may
know this story, so feel free at

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the end to chime in if you
have any extra insight. But twenty one

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year old tailor Robert Claude Brooks and
his eighteen year old brother Wyat Jay Charles

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Brooks were shed hunting, which is, you know, when you're looking for

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00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:33,000
deer antler sheds in a remote area
near Georgetown. And they fished and hunted

206
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,399
together nearly every day, so it's
not like this was like a new activity

207
00:14:35,399 --> 00:14:41,279
for them by any means. They
were experienced outdoorsmen. So on this day,

208
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,080
it was around one pm and they
were walking along the edge of a

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00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:48,799
dirt road and as they walked,
they noticed a mountain lion was stalking them.

210
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They put their hands up and started
yelling at the mountain lion, but

211
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,240
it didn't stop following them, and
at one point, because they were getting

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00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:01,000
desperate, they threw their backpack at
it. Instead of being deterred by this,

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the mountain lion charged and jumped at
Wyatt the younger brother's face, and

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00:15:05,799 --> 00:15:11,440
took him to the ground. Wyatt
wrestled with the mountain lion as tailan beat

215
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,360
it and continued screaming, and at
one point Wyatt managed to get on top

216
00:15:15,399 --> 00:15:18,200
of the mountain lion, but the
cat started clawing at his midsection, so

217
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,679
he let go. At this point, the mountain lion broke away from Wyatt

218
00:15:22,679 --> 00:15:26,799
and charged at Tailan, the older
brother. It jumped and grabbed him by

219
00:15:26,879 --> 00:15:33,480
the throat and took him to the
ground as well with a severely lacerated face.

220
00:15:33,639 --> 00:15:35,639
Wyatt tried to beat the cat off
of his brother, but couldn't stop

221
00:15:35,679 --> 00:15:39,360
it, so he ran back to
their car to get cell service to call

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00:15:39,399 --> 00:15:45,080
for help. Unfortunately, help wasn't
able to arrive in time to save Tailan,

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00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,759
and Wyatt was rushed to a hospital
where he received reconstructive surgery on his

224
00:15:48,879 --> 00:15:54,519
face and neck. And in response
to this, some Fish Wildlife game wardens

225
00:15:54,519 --> 00:15:58,320
were able to track down the mountain
lion and euthanized it, and this was

226
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,559
the first fatal attack in Range County
since two thousand and four, according to

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00:16:02,679 --> 00:16:07,759
Fish and Wildlife and Taylan, his
family said, enjoyed the outdoors playing guitar

228
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,519
and was known as quote a very
kind and gentle soul, and in a

229
00:16:12,559 --> 00:16:17,559
public statement, the family said,
quote a brother is a friend given by

230
00:16:17,639 --> 00:16:22,919
nature. These two brothers were driven
by nature. This was the first fatal

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00:16:22,919 --> 00:16:26,200
attack in California since two thousand and
four, so ten years, which I

232
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,679
mean isn't an insignificant Like that's not
that long ago. I don't know if

233
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,679
you know anything about the fatality before
that, but I mean it seems like

234
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,879
this is extremely uncommon. I don't
know if you know anything about that area,

235
00:16:38,159 --> 00:16:45,399
but it was I think overall in
historical records, it's been something like

236
00:16:45,519 --> 00:16:49,480
maybe four or five fatalities in like
the last hundred years in California. So

237
00:16:49,759 --> 00:16:55,240
yeah, they were like obviously,
twenty year difference between the two is not

238
00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,879
year ten. I know, I
know, you get it's okay, someone

239
00:17:00,879 --> 00:17:03,440
tells me twenty years ago and I
still think it's the eighties. Yeah,

240
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,720
but yeah, I know, like
El Dorado County, I've been a couple

241
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,519
of times, not on cases,
just to visit and stuff. It's more

242
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,599
high desert. I don't know if
there's any more details released on the state

243
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,920
of the Mount Lion, but to
me, that sounds like a very desperate

244
00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:27,000
mount lion as opposed to one that's
like more aggressively hunting. Yeah, and

245
00:17:27,039 --> 00:17:30,039
I couldn't find any more information on
it either, I think because this was

246
00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,519
more recent I couldn't find like if
there was any cropsy or anything, or

247
00:17:33,559 --> 00:17:37,359
if it was you know, normal
so to speak. Yeah, it's my

248
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,119
understanding is, especially because it's probably
still under investigation, there's still a lot

249
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,920
of work to be done, I
would assume on that. On that front,

250
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:51,279
obviously tragic, right, it's not
a great way to go, right,

251
00:17:51,559 --> 00:17:55,799
and it's not okay for this to
have happened. Wild animals are going

252
00:17:55,839 --> 00:17:59,279
to be wild animals. Yeah,
it's just the way it goes. It

253
00:17:59,319 --> 00:18:03,519
sounds to me like they did pretty
much everything they could have done. Yeah,

254
00:18:03,599 --> 00:18:06,640
right, short of like having a
firearm or a pepper spray. I

255
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,720
say firearm, but like in that
situation when your brother is tussling with a

256
00:18:08,799 --> 00:18:12,680
mutlon, would you even shoot at
it? Exactly? I guess technically a

257
00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,759
gunshot to the ground might have scared
it away for a second. It just

258
00:18:15,759 --> 00:18:22,880
seemed like it was a very determined
animal. I usually I tell people most

259
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,480
of the times that I don't have
to worry a lot about mutlins because of

260
00:18:26,519 --> 00:18:32,480
my structure, you know, like
I'm really big and technically speaking, like

261
00:18:32,599 --> 00:18:36,680
most men tend to be on the
bigger side of things, and so you

262
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:41,359
don't tend to have to worry so
much. But it's one of those things

263
00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:42,880
where I kept reading it, I'm
like, I don't really know what I

264
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:47,279
would do. Yeah, I guess
if you had bear spray, you would

265
00:18:47,279 --> 00:18:49,119
just spray it. And if your
brother gets spuried, I guess it's better

266
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,880
than killed. Yeah. And I
think a lot of people have this misconception

267
00:18:55,200 --> 00:19:00,279
with these attacks that these things last
a really long time, and they don't.

268
00:19:00,799 --> 00:19:03,319
Right when I talk about it,
I sometimes, depending on the crowd,

269
00:19:03,319 --> 00:19:07,319
I sometimes joke about red dead redemption, yeah right, because especially like

270
00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,599
red dead redemption too, you're like
walking in the woods and like you get

271
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,720
killed by cougar before you even have
a chance to do anything about it.

272
00:19:14,839 --> 00:19:18,039
Really, I know it's a joke, but it also is a very accurate

273
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,559
representation of animal attacks. Yes,
right, a lot like when it happens

274
00:19:22,559 --> 00:19:26,599
to you, your mind kind of
slows down, but from a bystander point

275
00:19:26,599 --> 00:19:29,400
of view, it just happens so
fast. I'm sure the whole thing was

276
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,000
like a one to two minute interaction. Yeah, and that was asulted,

277
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,759
right. And that's the thing.
It's with cases like this, it's very

278
00:19:37,759 --> 00:19:41,519
easy to be critical and say,
like, oh, yeah, I would

279
00:19:41,519 --> 00:19:44,160
have carried bear spray with me.
I would have carried like I would have

280
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:45,440
pulled out my knife and all these
things. And people ask me what you

281
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,200
would do. And I do have
bear spray, and I do have an

282
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,200
air horn, and I do have
a knife with me, and sometimes I

283
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,880
have a gun with me, But
like having the mind to do all that

284
00:19:56,799 --> 00:20:00,960
and to employ them correctly is a
different topic together, right, Yeah,

285
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:07,000
And I think that that's kind of
what the California, like State Wildlife Department

286
00:20:07,039 --> 00:20:08,680
said. They were like these they
didn't do anything wrong, they were traveling

287
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,079
together, they made a lot of
noise, they threw something at it,

288
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,720
and it just was really determined,
and I mean to be fair, So

289
00:20:14,759 --> 00:20:17,799
the younger brother was attacked, brought
to the ground, and then it went

290
00:20:17,839 --> 00:20:21,799
after his older brother, and so
he's trying to fight off a mountain lion

291
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,240
while he has like a lacerated face
after himself being attacked, Like I can't

292
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,240
imagine, what do you do?
You know? I think they did everything

293
00:20:30,279 --> 00:20:33,000
they possibly could have, So it
just it really sucked. And I wish

294
00:20:33,039 --> 00:20:37,039
we had more information about the mountain
lion to get more contacts maybe, But

295
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,200
thankfully and all the other stories that
we have to talk about, well maybe

296
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:41,880
not, thankfully, I don't know, you know what I mean. In

297
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,400
all the other stories we have to
talk about today, we have more context

298
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:49,119
as to like what the condition of
the mountain lion was, So I maybe

299
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,119
in the next two months it'll come
out more info since this was pretty recent.

300
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:59,119
But yeah, I think my main
takeaway is that I guess this is

301
00:20:59,279 --> 00:21:02,599
like the shittiest thing that you can
possibly say in this situation. But like,

302
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,359
if you recreate in nature, things
like this might happen, right sometimes,

303
00:21:07,519 --> 00:21:11,559
And I tell people when I'm talking
to them, when I do outreach

304
00:21:11,599 --> 00:21:14,599
and stuff, I'm like, sometimes
it's a habituate animal. Sometimes it's an

305
00:21:14,599 --> 00:21:18,599
animal that's starving. Sometimes it's rabies. Sometimes it's just an animal, right,

306
00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,880
and there is nothing that you can
do about it. We don't know.

307
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,319
For all we know there were cubs
two feet down, right, For

308
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,400
all we know it was starving or
hat rabies or anything like that. Even

309
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,400
if we never find out the context, you also have to accept that sometimes

310
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,960
that sharing the landscape with wild animals, this is going to happen, right,

311
00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:42,359
And I know we like a lot
of attacks are a lot of media,

312
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:48,200
especially focus on the predators doing attacks, right, But this, this

313
00:21:48,279 --> 00:21:51,720
is the thing that can happen to
you with moose, right, and moose

314
00:21:51,759 --> 00:21:55,440
are like big giant cows, but
you spook them, they'll stomp you.

315
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:56,839
And if a moose stomps you,
you're not going to have a fun time,

316
00:21:57,559 --> 00:22:02,519
right, And even something like an
elk or a deer can can do

317
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,160
severe damage to you if the right
conditions are met. And so like obviously

318
00:22:07,319 --> 00:22:11,720
condolences to the family. It's just
a weird and I hope it gets some

319
00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:15,160
sort of closure, you know,
with some sort of resemblance of it,

320
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,480
but it is. It's just something
that happens when when you create in the

321
00:22:18,519 --> 00:22:21,880
wild. You know, you go
hunting, you go fishing, you go

322
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,279
shit hunting, you just go hiking, and there's always a change, no

323
00:22:25,319 --> 00:22:29,680
matter how minimal, that the conditions
are such that you know, you get

324
00:22:29,839 --> 00:22:36,079
attacked by something. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, All right, let's move

325
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:40,839
on to our next story. So, actually, just a few months earlier,

326
00:22:41,279 --> 00:22:45,519
on February seventeenth of this year,
twenty twenty four, sixty year old

327
00:22:45,599 --> 00:22:49,240
Kerrie mccorkyl was cycling within a group
of five other women northeast of Fall City,

328
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,920
Washington around twelve to fifty pm.
There were three people in the front

329
00:22:55,039 --> 00:22:59,240
and two others riding about two hundred
feet behind in the back, and the

330
00:22:59,279 --> 00:23:03,799
group said that as they were riding, two mountain lions walked behind them,

331
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,200
and at the last second, one
of the mountain lions, a young male,

332
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,960
jumped and latched onto Carrie's face,
bringing her to the ground, kicking

333
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,160
at her body with its back paws, so took her off of her bike.

334
00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:18,680
The other members of Carrie's group began
attacking the mountain lion with rocks,

335
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,839
a stick, and tried cutting its
neck with a leatherman multitool. Meanwhile,

336
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,599
Carrie was trying to gouge the lion's
eyes out and poke into its nose to

337
00:23:27,599 --> 00:23:34,279
get it to release. The group
stayed at this for fifteen minutes and the

338
00:23:34,319 --> 00:23:40,240
only reason the lion finally released Carrie's
face was because it was trying to reposition

339
00:23:40,279 --> 00:23:44,279
its bike, and when it finally
let go, they trapped it under a

340
00:23:44,319 --> 00:23:48,519
mountain bike and held it there until
Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife police arrived,

341
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,759
thankfully for them, because it was
like this was a more remote area.

342
00:23:53,079 --> 00:23:56,720
An officer happened to be patrolling at
the time and was able to get

343
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:02,079
to the scene by one oh five
pm, so so this encounter happened around

344
00:24:02,079 --> 00:24:03,680
twelve fifty got there by one of
five, which is a pretty good response

345
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:10,519
time, and the young male lion
was euthanized by the department and they even

346
00:24:10,559 --> 00:24:12,279
got a hound to try to track
down the other mountain lion that had been

347
00:24:12,319 --> 00:24:17,519
seen, but it was never found. Carrie had to undergo emergency surgery on

348
00:24:17,559 --> 00:24:21,680
her jaw, but was sent home
just five days after the attack, and

349
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:26,240
there was a GoFundMe for her,
and on the GoFundMe there's an incredible set

350
00:24:26,279 --> 00:24:30,559
of pictures of her going through recovery, like post surgery and stuff, and

351
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,640
you can see exactly how swollen her
face got and the side of her face

352
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:40,440
that was held onto by the mountain
lion easily swelled up to twice its normal

353
00:24:40,519 --> 00:24:45,519
size. And thankfully her goalfundme exceeded
all the goals. But like just seeing

354
00:24:45,519 --> 00:24:51,160
the pictures, it is horrifying what
happened to her. But I don't have

355
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:52,799
any more contexts other than this was
a young male. But this kind of

356
00:24:52,799 --> 00:24:59,680
seems like a opportunistic trying to go
after people that are moving. I don't

357
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,880
know, but thankfully she was able
to or is making a full recovery.

358
00:25:03,079 --> 00:25:07,200
So I want to like, I'm
going to take a side step here.

359
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,920
And so it's just one of those
weird things. It might sound morbid,

360
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,200
and I'm really sorry if it does, but like if you think about it

361
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,599
from like just because we're biologists and
you know, sometimes morbid is really fascinating.

362
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:25,400
It's just one of those things where
like how efficient these guys are?

363
00:25:25,799 --> 00:25:29,720
Yeah, right, you think getting
scratched by your cat is bad, right,

364
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,799
try getting scratched by a cat that's
like a hundred times its weight.

365
00:25:32,839 --> 00:25:36,480
I mean I'm probably not a hundred, but at least depending on your cat,

366
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,640
ten times its weight, right,
and with claws that are like so

367
00:25:40,759 --> 00:25:42,519
much bigger, and sometimes like my
cat scratches me when I'm trying to pell

368
00:25:42,559 --> 00:25:45,319
them and I'm like, ah,
you fuck her, and like yeah,

369
00:25:45,519 --> 00:25:48,920
hurst it last rates a lot,
and you know, you get scars and

370
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:55,519
just try to imagine that times ten
on your face. Yeah, as your

371
00:25:55,559 --> 00:25:59,599
bicycle, so you're also getting road
rash from falling off your bike. Yeah,

372
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,799
I don't I don't know if they
were ever they were really released the

373
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,599
weight of the Munta lion or anything
of the sorts. I didn't see it.

374
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,160
I am. I am thinking that
it might be on the leaner side,

375
00:26:10,279 --> 00:26:14,759
just because it was held under a
mountain bike exactly. And when they

376
00:26:14,759 --> 00:26:17,880
said young, they don't have an
age obviously, but young to me would

377
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,960
mean like under three years old or
something. I guess I'm just thinking back

378
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,440
to all the male males that I've
ever caught on camera, and I'm like,

379
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,640
there's no way even a group of
five people can hold that thing under

380
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,480
a camera and not get hurt right
under a bike, sorry, and not

381
00:26:32,519 --> 00:26:36,319
get hurt. So I would imagine
it's probably on the leaner side. But

382
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:41,039
it is. You know, most
of the tacks are joggers or bikers,

383
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,599
and it is the speed, it's
the leniency. Sometimes the figure is lean,

384
00:26:47,279 --> 00:26:49,720
right, and that just kind of
triggers a predator or respond. So

385
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,319
don't go biking in the woods kids, and don't go joggingly. No,

386
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,279
Again, it doesn't really sound like
they did anything wrong, right, If

387
00:26:56,279 --> 00:27:00,680
there were a group, they were
biking, making lots of always probably by

388
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,400
talking, yeah, probably right,
they hit it. She went for the

389
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,240
eyes and the nose, which is
great tip right and go. Those are

390
00:27:07,319 --> 00:27:11,799
the soft spots in an animal.
I personally wouldn't have tried to trap it

391
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,599
under a mountain bike, even if
it was like young, not because of

392
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,200
the animal, but because I'm like, I'm not risking any more harm to

393
00:27:18,279 --> 00:27:22,640
me. Yeah, but the context
obviously, if we don't know if it

394
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,319
was trying to run away, or
if it was gearing up for another attack,

395
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:27,519
or what the context was. So
maybe that was the best decision.

396
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,079
You know, if it's an insistent
animal, just keep me it trapped if

397
00:27:32,079 --> 00:27:34,960
you can works well. Well.
I wonder if they also had the force

398
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:37,400
at the time to be like,
we should get this tested for rabies,

399
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,160
you know what I mean? I
mean possibly, I know that I always

400
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,079
do, but you know, they
did as much as they could do.

401
00:27:45,319 --> 00:27:48,480
One of the things that people do
ask me sometimes is you carry your knife

402
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,599
for an animal attack. And that's
the only thing that I will always really

403
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,279
say is that not unless if the
animal is on me. You know.

404
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,759
The only thing that I would really
try and say is that if someone is

405
00:28:00,759 --> 00:28:03,519
being attacked by an animal, try
and keep a distance, because if grabbing

406
00:28:03,559 --> 00:28:07,480
a knife trying to get to that
animal means that you might be next,

407
00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:11,079
right well like at the first story. Yeah, yeah, And I think

408
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,880
that's the that's the only thing that
again easy for someone to say who's not

409
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,400
in that heat of the moment,
right trying to do whatever you can to

410
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,720
help your friend. If we were
hiking in a mountline attacked you, I'd

411
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,200
probably try and stab it, right, even just saying don't do it.

412
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,079
That's what you would try and do, right, just because you think that

413
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,920
it would scare it. But if
you have another option, I think throwing

414
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,240
rocks probably would have done just as
much. Honestly, it sounds like the

415
00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:41,960
second one wasn't found, and it
sounds like there hasn't been any recurring incidents

416
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,720
since then, so that's good.
Especially if there was two, we could

417
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,319
probably assume that one might have been
a pre parent and one might have been

418
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,839
the juvenile. So it's possible the
juvenile was the one like, hey,

419
00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:55,960
I'm going to test this out.
We'll see how it goes. But it

420
00:28:56,039 --> 00:29:00,119
was crazy to me that it stayed
latched onto her face for fifteen minutes,

421
00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:04,759
and the only reason it was going
to stop despite being literally attacked by four

422
00:29:04,799 --> 00:29:08,400
other adult human beings is that it
was like, Okay, I'm not killing

423
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,480
her by holding her jaw. Let
me try to adjust, you'll probably move.

424
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,160
Yeah, they're persistent, you know, That's what they do. Cats,

425
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,400
especially once they get a hold of
their prey. If they have a

426
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,920
good position, they're not really going
to let go until they've made a kill.

427
00:29:22,599 --> 00:29:27,359
Sometimes people ask me about deer whistles
and if they would help, you

428
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,680
know, I don't think if deer
whistles even help deer, to be honest

429
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:36,039
with you, Yeah, I don't
really think it's a good investment. I

430
00:29:36,119 --> 00:29:40,319
think an air horn might be enough
to give reprieve right, and I always

431
00:29:40,359 --> 00:29:42,759
I'm always a huge advocate, primarily
also because if you ever get lost,

432
00:29:42,799 --> 00:29:47,240
it's a good way to be relocated, right, Yeah, carry an air

433
00:29:47,279 --> 00:29:51,440
horn with you. I think blasting
that air horn in the mountainlin's face or

434
00:29:51,559 --> 00:29:53,880
ears might have done something. Yeah, maybe have it one on your bike

435
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,720
if you're a mountain biker and you're
worried about this, attaching a horn to

436
00:29:56,799 --> 00:30:00,240
your bike. Oh, I mean, if nothing something else, even if

437
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,119
it's not for animal attacks, if
you ever get hurt or injured, you

438
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,799
know, like it travels a lot
more than a scream does. Yeah,

439
00:30:08,279 --> 00:30:14,960
noise sometimes disturbs more than damage,
because these animals are used to being bucked

440
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,920
around and kicked and stomped, right, and so like something unexpected to them

441
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:25,039
might be that. Yeah, makes
sense. That all being said, I'm

442
00:30:25,039 --> 00:30:30,680
interested to hear your opinion on the
next attack. So this was from a

443
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:36,039
little bit ago. But Clint Larson
on Facebook suggested our next story that took

444
00:30:36,079 --> 00:30:38,720
place in twenty nineteen, and he
suggested this like a while ago, so

445
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:44,839
I'm finally getting to it. But
on February fourth, twenty nineteen, thirty

446
00:30:44,839 --> 00:30:48,519
one year old Travis Kaufman was running
on a trail at Horsetooth Mountain Park near

447
00:30:48,559 --> 00:30:55,960
Fort Collins, Colorado. So once
again someone running. He was an environmental

448
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,880
consultant who was from Arkansas and moved
to Colorado five years before to get more

449
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,279
in his outdoor hobbies, which included
running and mountain biking, so two very

450
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:10,079
mountain lion preferred activities. But as
Travis was running, he heard pine needles

451
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,799
rustle to the side of him,
and he turned to see a small mountain

452
00:31:12,839 --> 00:31:18,559
lion only ten feet away. He
put up his hands and screamed in an

453
00:31:18,559 --> 00:31:22,240
attempt to scare the lion off,
but it pounced at him, aiming for

454
00:31:22,319 --> 00:31:26,039
his face, which is also apparently
a common occurrence happening in the past few

455
00:31:26,079 --> 00:31:32,319
attacks we talked about. But because
Travis had his hands up to block his

456
00:31:32,359 --> 00:31:37,960
face, the mountain lion latched on
his left wrist instead and started clawing at

457
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,960
his face and legs. Travis tried
to throw the mountain lion off of him,

458
00:31:41,079 --> 00:31:45,759
but because it wouldn't let go,
they were both sent tumbling down a

459
00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:51,200
slope off the side of the trail. Travis at this time was five feet

460
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,759
tall and ten inches and at the
time he weighed one hundred and fifty to

461
00:31:53,839 --> 00:31:59,400
one hundred and fifty five pounds,
so he quoted that he was like a

462
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,559
puny guy, so I don't think
that's puny, but like he was basically

463
00:32:02,559 --> 00:32:05,880
saying, like, I'm not a
big burly guy, so you know,

464
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,440
it went after me. But he
has made The cat was only around fifty

465
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:14,200
pounds, and after falling down the
slope, all that they could do was

466
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,960
wrestle, and at one point he
was able to pin the cat underneath him.

467
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,119
He tried stabbing the cat's neck with
sticks, but they kept breaking,

468
00:32:22,519 --> 00:32:25,519
so he grabbed a rock and tried
bashing the cat on the head, but

469
00:32:25,599 --> 00:32:29,519
that didn't work either, and it
still wouldn't let go of his wrist.

470
00:32:30,759 --> 00:32:32,480
Eventually, he was able to shift
in a way where he could get one

471
00:32:32,559 --> 00:32:37,880
leg up to the cat's neck and
just stepped on it. And he said

472
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,319
he was running on pure adrenaline at
this point and all he could imagine was

473
00:32:40,359 --> 00:32:45,960
being stuck on this hillside with a
mountain lion gnawing on him, which he

474
00:32:45,039 --> 00:32:51,119
said, quote which is a pretty
creepy way to go. So Travis,

475
00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:57,000
with his foot was able to suffocate
this mountain lion to death, and after

476
00:32:57,119 --> 00:33:00,720
killing it, he had to still
run a few miles to find help.

477
00:33:01,359 --> 00:33:05,680
All the while he was paranoid that
there was another mountain lion around that would

478
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,200
attack him as well, especially if
he was in a compromised state. Thankfully,

479
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,920
though, he did not run into
another mountain lion, and instead he

480
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,519
ran into a couple who ended up
taking him to the hospital. In the

481
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:21,519
end, he needed seventeen stitches along
his cheek, six along the bridge of

482
00:33:21,559 --> 00:33:24,599
his nose, two on his other
cheek, accounting for more than twenty stitches

483
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,000
on his face alone. He needed
a few stitches on his wrist, and

484
00:33:29,079 --> 00:33:31,799
he also had puncture wounds on his
legs and neck, but those did not

485
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:37,079
require stitches. Initially, Travis didn't
come forward with this story because he was

486
00:33:37,119 --> 00:33:40,920
afraid that he wouldn't live up to
the hype and said, quote, like

487
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,160
I was saying earlier, this story
is bigger than my puny form. And

488
00:33:45,319 --> 00:33:50,000
he also said he was really grateful
he hadn't been wearing headphones, something that

489
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,200
we talked about when you were first
here, Petros, because otherwise he never

490
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,319
would have heard the pie needles rustling, and never would have looked to see

491
00:33:55,319 --> 00:33:59,160
what was coming, and probably wouldn't
have had time to put his hands up

492
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:04,759
to protect his face and throat.
Wildlife officials went back to collect the body

493
00:34:04,759 --> 00:34:07,239
of the mountain lion that Travis had
killed, and it had been heavily scavenged

494
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,320
around the time of its death.
A knee cropsy found that the mountain lion

495
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,920
killed was only around twenty four pounds
when knee cropsied, but that was likely

496
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:21,039
due to the heavy scavenging and alive, it likely would have been more between

497
00:34:21,079 --> 00:34:25,960
thirty five to forty pounds, and
the veterinarians doing the necropsy estimated this mountain

498
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,719
lion only to be three to four
months old. And they referred to it

499
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,760
as a kitten, and it was
likely a male. The teeth marks on

500
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,440
the bones from scavenging, they assumed
was from other mountain lions, likely its

501
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:43,360
siblings. They also found abundant dried
blood between the animals popads, as well

502
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,199
as around its nose and mouth,
and it also had abrasions and bruising on

503
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,000
the top of its head, nose, and above the right eye, which

504
00:34:50,039 --> 00:34:53,079
is consistent with Travis hitting it with
a rock, and its larynx and trachea

505
00:34:53,159 --> 00:35:00,960
also showed signs of significant injury consistent
with Travis suffocating it. Otherwise, this

506
00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:06,159
male was healthy and young and showed
no sign of disease. An official said

507
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,440
had this been a full grown adult, the outcome for Travis would have been

508
00:35:08,599 --> 00:35:13,599
very different, and that this young
mountain lion still pose a serious threat to

509
00:35:13,679 --> 00:35:19,039
him, as evident by the injuries
he sustained. So this one, to

510
00:35:19,079 --> 00:35:22,679
me seems more of a clear like
this is a young mountain lion trying to

511
00:35:22,679 --> 00:35:25,480
see what it can get away with, and it just ended horribly for this,

512
00:35:25,639 --> 00:35:29,440
I mean for both of them,
but especially the mountain lion ended up

513
00:35:29,519 --> 00:35:34,719
with it dying. So I think
for me it reads that the mother died.

514
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,920
Really the cubs were stuck by themselves. Yeah, interesting, okay,

515
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:44,400
mostly because of the fact that,
like I'm assuming the wildlife officials got to

516
00:35:44,559 --> 00:35:47,800
the dead the dead mount lion quick
relatively fast, right, yeah, because

517
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,920
they would probably want to test it
for rabies. And so the fact that

518
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,280
like as soon as it died,
it was scavenged by other mount lions.

519
00:35:55,599 --> 00:36:00,519
I know that they do it.
It's not like their cannibalism is really particularly

520
00:36:00,599 --> 00:36:04,559
shy of a thing for them,
but like the fact that it happened so

521
00:36:04,639 --> 00:36:07,559
fast to me tells me that they
were hungry. The siblings were also duvenile

522
00:36:07,679 --> 00:36:12,800
mounta lions, but they were sent
back to a rehabilitation facility and the plan

523
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,519
was to send them back into the
wild since then if their mother died,

524
00:36:15,599 --> 00:36:19,880
Yeah, I think that would be
the case. I think young lions are

525
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,480
relatively curious, but they especially three
months old, they sell the better benefit

526
00:36:22,559 --> 00:36:27,599
of the mother being around, and
for the most part, they tend to

527
00:36:27,599 --> 00:36:30,679
be hidden or low profiles, specifically
so they don't get predated on by either

528
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,920
other mountain lions or you know,
bears or whatever might kill them. They

529
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,360
don't mention anything about them being starving, right, Yeah, the nekruptcy.

530
00:36:40,559 --> 00:36:45,039
So I don't know if that's the
case. It's possible that the mother died

531
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:50,039
a couple of days ago and they
haven't reached the point of like pure desperation,

532
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,519
right, or they had just started
learning how to hunt, so they

533
00:36:52,559 --> 00:36:55,760
were like, oh, this makes
sense. I remember when the story first

534
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,280
came out and there were in any
details about the fact that it was like

535
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,400
a tiny mountain, and I was
like, really, And I looked at

536
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,920
it and I was like, this
guy beat up a mount lion, killed

537
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,639
a mountline with his foot, killed
a loutline with his foot in his bare

538
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,320
hands, and everything. I'm like, I find it hard to believe because

539
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,480
I don't think I can kill a
mount lion, right. Hell, I

540
00:37:14,519 --> 00:37:17,440
don't even think I could probably kill
a cub or a kitten, just because

541
00:37:17,599 --> 00:37:21,239
I don't think I cannot, not
because I feel bad for it, just

542
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,039
because I'm not really sure I could. But you say it, I'll say

543
00:37:24,039 --> 00:37:30,199
it. Protect your vulnerable areas if
you have that ability, And yeah,

544
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:34,719
the headphones are definitely a no go
to me. It's interesting because I also

545
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,800
was reading a Black Country guide talking
about how like blasting music could also have

546
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,679
that affect in you, and that
it might make it make you blind to

547
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,159
like animals approaching you because you obviously
there's always a lot of music, but

548
00:37:47,199 --> 00:37:52,079
you would think that ninety five percent
of the animals would scatter, right,

549
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,079
Yeah, unless they're coming for you. Yeah, if he was talking mostly

550
00:37:55,079 --> 00:37:59,000
about grizzlies and polar bears, if
them correctly with your animals, that are

551
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:06,360
not very easily discouraged. But yeah, situational awareness being the key lesson,

552
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,760
right, it's good to react in
such a way like to protect your face,

553
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:14,239
to protect your neck. It's like
one of those things that I think

554
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:19,280
people need to understand more is your
hands and your feet are good. You

555
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,440
want to have them, right,
but they are also the body parts that

556
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:27,119
you can they make do without and
still live. Right. But if I'm

557
00:38:27,119 --> 00:38:29,320
outlying, does get a hold of
your face, or does get a hold

558
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,519
of your neck, especially in the
fact of your neck, there is very

559
00:38:31,559 --> 00:38:36,800
little that can be done to save
you at that point, right, assuming

560
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,000
that you're by yourself. As we
found out in the second story, they

561
00:38:39,199 --> 00:38:43,480
just don't let go because they do
have that hold and they know they know

562
00:38:43,519 --> 00:38:45,920
where to attack, right, they
are ambush hunters. They're cats, they

563
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,960
know what they're going for. They're
not just blindly going for a spot.

564
00:38:50,199 --> 00:38:52,559
All of these cats in these stories
we've talked about have gone for the face

565
00:38:52,599 --> 00:38:58,280
and neck area. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, we're not completely detached from

566
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,079
nature in that way. Yeah,
I think that's exact. Sometimes the main

567
00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:04,039
takeaway from this podcast is like,
yeah, we like to think that there's

568
00:39:04,039 --> 00:39:07,760
always something wrong with animals and that's
why something happened, But that's sometimes it's

569
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:13,280
just that we are out there being
in nature like everything else. So yeah,

570
00:39:14,079 --> 00:39:19,480
so let's get to our last attack
story on people and then we'll shift

571
00:39:19,519 --> 00:39:24,480
to pets. But this was another
history making attack that occurred in Washington.

572
00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:30,679
So this was on May nineteenth and
twenty eighteen, thirty one year old Isaac

573
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:36,800
Cedarbaum and his friend thirty two year
old SJ. Brooks where mountain biking thirty

574
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:42,199
miles southeast of Seattle. As they
were biking on a remote dirt road,

575
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,440
a mountain lion began stalking them.
They stopped, made themselves look big by

576
00:39:46,559 --> 00:39:51,159
raising their bikes above their heads and
yelling at the cougar, all things you

577
00:39:51,199 --> 00:39:52,840
are advised to do if you're being
stalked by a mountain lion, which pretty

578
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:59,320
much everyone in this episode has,
and the mountain lion went away briefly,

579
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:04,599
but came back and pounced at them. They fought it off, initially using

580
00:40:04,599 --> 00:40:07,079
one of their bikes to hit it, and they were able to show it

581
00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:12,079
away again. As the pair took
a moment to collect themselves and talk about

582
00:40:12,119 --> 00:40:16,119
how crazy what just happened was,
the mountain lion pounced on Isaac and latched

583
00:40:16,159 --> 00:40:22,280
on to his head. The cougar
shook him violently as Isaac tried to fight

584
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:27,679
it off, and the cougar only
let go of him because his friend Sjay

585
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,639
ran away. The mountain lion chased
Sjay down and tackled them to the ground.

586
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,119
This time, Isaac was the one
to run off to try to find

587
00:40:37,159 --> 00:40:40,039
cell service and call for help.
He was able to get service and call,

588
00:40:40,199 --> 00:40:44,400
but when a passerby came around,
he handed the phone off because he

589
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,800
was very injured and having a hard
time talking, and the passer by was

590
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:52,480
able to get help to where they
were. A King County Sheriff's deputy got

591
00:40:52,519 --> 00:40:55,000
to the scene, and when he
was able to locate Sjay, they were

592
00:40:55,039 --> 00:41:00,719
already deceased. But the cougar was
still quote mauling the body. The sheriff

593
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:06,320
fired his gun at it and it
took off. Isaac was taken by helicopter

594
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,199
to a medical center in Seattle that
day, and hunting dogs were brought to

595
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:14,079
the scene and they tracked down the
cougar, which was sitting in a tree

596
00:41:14,199 --> 00:41:19,920
just fifty yards from where first responders
were tending to Sjay's body. The mountain

597
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,679
lion was a male estimated to be
around three to four years old, and

598
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:28,679
his body was sent to knee cropsy. In July of twenty eighteen, it

599
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:34,599
was concluded that there were no abnormalities
found no disease, leaving no obvious indication

600
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,199
of why the attack happened in the
past one hundred years. This was the

601
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,960
second time a person had been killed
by a mountain lion in the state of

602
00:41:42,079 --> 00:41:47,079
Washington, with the last fatality before
that occurring in nineteen twenty four. This

603
00:41:47,159 --> 00:41:52,360
attack was especially rare given that the
pair had successfully scared the cat off twice

604
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:54,760
just for it to come back again, and a member of the state Fish

605
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:59,639
and Wildlife Department stated that they advised
people not to run and that es Ja

606
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,639
run while Isaac was being attacked likely
triggered the attack on them, but the

607
00:42:02,679 --> 00:42:07,159
state rep also said, quote,
we try to teach people to overcome their

608
00:42:07,159 --> 00:42:09,960
base instinct. But my goodness,
who is going to fault you for that?

609
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,679
Yeah? That's rough. Yeah,
well, I mean they also both

610
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:17,000
ran, but like someone has to, you gotta get out of there.

611
00:42:17,119 --> 00:42:22,440
Yeah, it doesn't sound like it
was hungry or starving. Yep. In

612
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,440
that situation. It sounds like they
tried to do at least what they did

613
00:42:25,559 --> 00:42:31,960
correctly a couple of times right and
again running away kind of what are you

614
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:37,000
going to do? Yeah, in
those situations, I wish there was a

615
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:42,840
way to run simulated scenarios to train
people in what they do right. Something

616
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,639
that I learned really like early,
which I thought it was really interesting,

617
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,599
is that in Sweden they when you
did take your driver's license, they take

618
00:42:49,599 --> 00:42:52,519
you into an ice rink and they
have you drive the car around in an

619
00:42:52,519 --> 00:42:55,639
ice rinkh just to know what it's
like to drive in icy conditions. That's

620
00:42:55,679 --> 00:42:59,239
so smart and what you do.
And I'm like, yeah, that's great,

621
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:00,239
And then in my head I was
like, I wish there was a

622
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,079
way to do this with like bears
and Mount lions in a way that is

623
00:43:04,119 --> 00:43:07,159
safe. But I don't think there
is not even with like trained animals.

624
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:12,960
I think it's not a thing that
can feasibly roll out to the general public.

625
00:43:13,119 --> 00:43:15,679
There is a thing. There isn't
a program out there with bears where

626
00:43:15,679 --> 00:43:20,679
they have a trained bear run at
you and there's a fence between you,

627
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,000
but they still have one run at
you, and you have like, you

628
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:27,440
know, fake bear spray that you
have to get out in time to spray,

629
00:43:27,559 --> 00:43:30,320
and it teaches people like, this
is how fast these bears are,

630
00:43:30,559 --> 00:43:31,920
This is how fast you need to
be, and it kind of like trains

631
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,719
people to get, you know,
their equipment out in time. But I

632
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,320
totally get what you're saying, like, how do you prepare for an attack

633
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:42,360
by a cat whose whole thing is
stealth and ambush? You know, Yeah,

634
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,800
I didn't even know about the bear
thing. That's pretty cool, and

635
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:46,639
I'm glad that that's a thing.
I know. They have the fake one

636
00:43:47,119 --> 00:43:51,000
right that emulates the speed, So
they have a cutout of a bear charge

637
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:52,880
at you, and it emulates like
this bear spray and stuff, and that's

638
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:57,639
cool, But the real animal is
the bigger deal. I think you have

639
00:43:57,679 --> 00:44:00,639
to suppress so many instincts. I've
been bluffed charged by black bears a couple

640
00:44:00,679 --> 00:44:05,400
of times, and it's just such
a thing that you need to like suppress

641
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,400
the instinct to run away and just
stay there. And honestly, like,

642
00:44:07,559 --> 00:44:10,400
if I'm being very honest to you, the first two times, I didn't

643
00:44:10,519 --> 00:44:15,960
register what happened until after it happened, and so I didn't really like stand

644
00:44:15,039 --> 00:44:19,039
by ground so much as like being
like, oh, okay, I guess

645
00:44:19,079 --> 00:44:23,800
I stood my ground, yeah,
by accident. It's hard. It's really

646
00:44:24,159 --> 00:44:29,480
difficult. It sounds like a persistent
line. I think we're going to be

647
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:34,920
seeing a lot more out of this
in the future, and I think it's

648
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,119
partially got to do with recovering populations, more people recreating outdoors, right,

649
00:44:38,679 --> 00:44:44,440
And as a biologist, yeah,
like these animals have the fear of humans,

650
00:44:44,519 --> 00:44:46,119
right, but not all of them
do, and the fear varies,

651
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:51,440
and it doesn't matter whether they're hunted
or not. It's just happens. Some

652
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,400
animals are going to be bolder than
others for whatever reason, they're going to

653
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,480
be more interested in humans. You're
not exactly in the mind of that animal

654
00:44:57,519 --> 00:45:00,480
and what could possibly trigger it in
any potential way to do what it does.

655
00:45:01,039 --> 00:45:05,159
I would say the bikes triggered the
initial approach, but then they got

656
00:45:05,199 --> 00:45:07,039
off the bikes and obviously stayed there
and fought it off and scared it off.

657
00:45:07,079 --> 00:45:10,800
So like, all that to me
just tells me that this either was

658
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,840
a hungry lion it just hadn't lost
a lot of weight at that point,

659
00:45:15,119 --> 00:45:20,159
or it was just determined to eat
and kill at that point. It was

660
00:45:20,199 --> 00:45:22,119
just like this is what I'm getting, This is what I'm going to get,

661
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,239
right, Yeah, I guess much
like some humans are, like like

662
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:28,480
my wife's like, oh, I'm
really hungry. I could eat, but

663
00:45:28,599 --> 00:45:30,159
then she'll just be like, we're
going to go to dinner in three hours,

664
00:45:30,159 --> 00:45:34,119
I'll wait, whereas I'm like,
oh, I'm really hungry. I

665
00:45:34,199 --> 00:45:37,800
have to eat right now, yes, right, Like I need food in

666
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:39,679
my stomach right now. So I
guess it could just very well be that

667
00:45:40,159 --> 00:45:47,760
biological variety in these animals. Do
I think it's happening like more frequently?

668
00:45:49,119 --> 00:45:52,199
I guess. I just I don't
know. I think if there's a partial

669
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,320
the news getting out more and more
than they are, social media bias,

670
00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:00,880
Yeah, for sure, social media
bias a lot more ability to survive,

671
00:46:01,039 --> 00:46:04,960
a lot more abilities to call for
help, a lot more abilities for your

672
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,559
story to be believed as well.
Yeah. Right. I read a book

673
00:46:07,599 --> 00:46:13,599
about the gold mining prospects in California, and there's this guy that was like,

674
00:46:13,679 --> 00:46:15,760
yeah, one day I was like
mining gold in the river and a

675
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:17,199
wolverine attacked me and I had to
beat it in the head with a shovel

676
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,320
or whatever. I was reading it
and I was like, well, probably

677
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,000
a badger. If it was a
badger, wasn't really a wolverine? And

678
00:46:24,079 --> 00:46:27,599
did you really beat it with a
shovel? Is that what you're saying?

679
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,320
And so all these things because you
don't have a lot of proof. But

680
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:35,039
now we have the ability to record
our phones, other people have the ability

681
00:46:35,039 --> 00:46:37,519
to vouch for you and all that
kind of stuff. We're less isolated as

682
00:46:37,559 --> 00:46:42,280
a human race. Again, I
think we just have to accept that as

683
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,320
part of nature, and we have
to accept that some animals are just going

684
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:50,000
to be less scared of humans,
more brave. And if I had the

685
00:46:50,039 --> 00:46:52,599
resources to do with the studies,
I would, But I would also I'm

686
00:46:52,639 --> 00:46:55,199
pretty sure place a heavy good bet
on the fact that like trails that are

687
00:46:55,199 --> 00:47:00,039
more usually recreated might make four animals
that are less scared of humans in the

688
00:47:00,039 --> 00:47:04,880
long term, Yeah, just because
they get exposed to them so much more.

689
00:47:05,559 --> 00:47:07,920
Or it could be the other way
around. Yeah, they don't see

690
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,679
people often enough. Yeah, and
so they're not that scared. So it

691
00:47:12,039 --> 00:47:15,559
could either be either or. And
I will say, if you can,

692
00:47:16,559 --> 00:47:21,039
don't run away. It's the one
thing that I would definitely emphasize, try

693
00:47:21,039 --> 00:47:24,239
and not run away, especially with
these animals that can close the speed gap

694
00:47:24,639 --> 00:47:29,000
fast. Yeah. Because Yeah,
I think definitely what he did running away

695
00:47:29,079 --> 00:47:35,320
triggered the response and from a hunting
perspective of them mount lyon. If we

696
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,920
were to anthropomorphize it a little bit, which this is just how I usually

697
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,960
try and get my trains a thought
out. I imagine his thoughts were,

698
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,719
this guy's injured, He's not going
anywhere anytime soon. Let me get the

699
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:46,840
other one. Yeah, let me
get the other one down, and then

700
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,559
I'll come back and finish this guy
off, right, which is what you

701
00:47:50,599 --> 00:47:53,719
would see in a hunting a pattern
if possible. Right, It's like Fox

702
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:58,480
in the Henhouse syndrome, you know
exactly. Yeah, if you ever see

703
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,920
the syruplus killing situations. I have
a couple of videos that are like really

704
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:06,199
really brutal, but like sometimes they
just lash out in animals and they don't

705
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:07,719
necessarily kill one animal before going to
the other one. They just do as

706
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:12,679
much damage as they can and then
try and return and finish whatever they finish,

707
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,599
you know. Yeah, yeah,
one hundred percent. So trying not

708
00:48:15,639 --> 00:48:19,360
toronto if you can't, but what
do you But no one's gonna blame you

709
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,519
if you do. Yeah, one
hundred percent. So let's end with talking

710
00:48:22,519 --> 00:48:28,639
about something that's probably way more common
than them attacking people, and that's them

711
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,679
attacking pets. So if you check
our Facebook, I had posted a video

712
00:48:31,679 --> 00:48:36,360
in May of a family in Washington
and it's like their ring camera footage like

713
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,119
up their yard and they were outside
their yard having a barbecue. Some people

714
00:48:39,159 --> 00:48:44,280
were like in the drive and washing
some cars, and two of their outdoor

715
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:51,000
cats ran towards the house with a
mountain lion directly behind them, and the

716
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:52,960
people jumped, one of them being
a really young kid, probably like seven

717
00:48:53,039 --> 00:48:57,280
or eight years old, who ran
into the house immediately so ran away,

718
00:48:57,599 --> 00:49:00,719
but thankfully the mountain lion just looked
at them, and then one of the

719
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,119
outdoor cats had been hiding behind something
and like jumped behind the mountain lion as

720
00:49:04,119 --> 00:49:06,639
it was distracted for like two seconds, and then the mountain lion took off

721
00:49:06,679 --> 00:49:09,960
after it again. So first of
all, keep your cat inside that way,

722
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:14,760
it's not going to lead predators back
to your barbecue. But yeah,

723
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:19,800
so that is just one instance of
this happening in Washington, which seems to

724
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,239
be having like a lot of mountlon
interactions as well. But there was one

725
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:28,320
really drastic case of mounta lions taking
pets that I really wanted to get into,

726
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,760
and it was in a town called
Nederland in Colorado back in twenty twenty

727
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:37,320
two. The town has a Facebook
group called the Nedheads, so maybe it's

728
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:42,239
Nederland, which I think is hilarious. But starting in April of twenty twenty

729
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,880
two, they made a map of
a recent string of mountain lion attacks on

730
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:51,800
dogs because that year, twenty three
dogs had been attacked, stalked, killed,

731
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:54,960
or disappeared, with the greatest number
of reports that year occurring between November

732
00:49:55,039 --> 00:50:00,440
fourteenth and December ninth. And during
that period from November to December alone it

733
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:05,880
was only three weeks. Seven dogs
died, two had been stocked, and

734
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:10,400
one vanished, and one survived an
attack, and people were speculating all kinds

735
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:15,559
of things, like it was one
mountain lion serially killing dogs, it was

736
00:50:15,599 --> 00:50:19,119
a pair, it was an entire
group, like no one really knew what

737
00:50:19,199 --> 00:50:22,400
was going on or how many mountain
lions they had. But there were some

738
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:27,599
really troubling stories like one from November
thirtieth when the Franklin family who lived in

739
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,400
the Hurricane Hill neighborhood and they let
out their eleven year old Shitzu Willow for

740
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:37,440
a potty break before bedtime and they
had their outside light on. They let

741
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:42,360
her out and Willow quote vanished in
the blink of an eye, and the

742
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,960
family wrote on Facebook, quote,
we found cougar tracks near her that we

743
00:50:45,079 --> 00:50:50,639
chased desperately through the night for hours
to no avail. We've continued to search

744
00:50:50,679 --> 00:50:53,199
hours and acres with no sign of
her. It looks like the lion,

745
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:58,199
myself and Willow were most likely to
triangle just feet apart, with the lion

746
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:04,320
hidden from the snow tracks we saw. And then on October twenty seventh and

747
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:08,559
the Gamble Gulch neighborhood, which they
have a great naming system in this place,

748
00:51:08,599 --> 00:51:14,559
but in the Gamble Golch neighborhood.
Aj Cozial's dog, Duke, a

749
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:20,159
ninety pound Bernese mountain dog mix,
was led outside to go to the bathroom.

750
00:51:20,519 --> 00:51:23,360
When Duke didn't return, Aj was
suspicious that something was wrong, but

751
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:29,239
it was dark, so he waited
until morning. When he went looking.

752
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,199
In the morning, he found Duke
on a hillside above his house dead.

753
00:51:34,199 --> 00:51:37,800
He had claw marks on his hips
and neck, one of his shoulders hanging

754
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:40,400
off to the side, and half
the skin on his face was torn off.

755
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,239
And then there was Zach Stansfield,
who let out his dog Lilah,

756
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:51,480
a fifty pound Catahula lab mix,
on December first. Zach went outside with

757
00:51:51,559 --> 00:51:55,280
Lilah turned away for a moment,
only to turn back and see the led

758
00:51:55,519 --> 00:52:01,079
light on her collar off in the
distance being dragged away. He saw the

759
00:52:01,159 --> 00:52:06,480
light go over the barbed wire fence
on his property and started sprinting towards her.

760
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:09,760
When he caught up, he saw
a mountain lion holding Lilah by the

761
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:15,280
neck, and he started screaming at
it, which actually made it release Lilah

762
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:17,599
and it started growling and hissing at
him, but gave no chase or didn't

763
00:52:17,599 --> 00:52:22,519
try to attack. When Zach went
after Lilah, he rushed her to the

764
00:52:22,599 --> 00:52:25,840
hospital, where she received ten stitches
and a drain in her abdomen, seven

765
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:29,800
stitches to close a big wound in
the back of her neck, and quote

766
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:34,360
a bunch more stitches scattered all around, twenty five total. But thankfully she

767
00:52:34,599 --> 00:52:37,199
lived. And people who had lived
in this town their whole lives said that

768
00:52:37,199 --> 00:52:40,320
they'd let their dogs wander all the
time and this had never been a problem

769
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:46,159
with mountain lions before. In Sam
Peterson, Colorado Park and Wildlife's Boulder Self

770
00:52:46,199 --> 00:52:52,039
District wildlife manager, so the guy
who was managing this unit held a community

771
00:52:52,079 --> 00:52:55,519
meeting at the Netherland Community Center in
an attempt to teach people one hundred and

772
00:52:55,599 --> 00:53:00,960
forty of them who arrived to listen
to him ways to coexist peacefully with mountain

773
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:05,440
lions. But obviously, many of
the people there said that the advice came

774
00:53:05,519 --> 00:53:08,239
too late for their pets, and
they wanted to know why CPW wasn't killing

775
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:14,599
or moving these mountain lions elsewhere.
Sam Peterson said, in this wildlife management

776
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:19,280
unit there were two allowable mountain lion
tags per season, but no one had

777
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,480
utilized them since two thousand and five, so this area was seeing their highest

778
00:53:22,559 --> 00:53:29,360
number of mountain lions in recent years. Sam also informed people about Colorado's statute

779
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:35,440
that differentiates personal end quote real property. This statute states that you can kill

780
00:53:35,519 --> 00:53:39,360
wildlife that threatens your real property like
your home, livestock, or vehicles,

781
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:45,039
but you can't kill wildlife that threatens
your personal property such as pets. So

782
00:53:45,119 --> 00:53:50,159
CPW can trap or kill mountain lions
that are killing your live stock, but

783
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,880
not your dog. And to be
fair, they did attempt to trap some

784
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:57,000
lions in the area that had been
stalking people that were walking dogs in a

785
00:53:57,079 --> 00:54:00,760
leash, but they weren't successful and
there were multiple theories as to why the

786
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:05,800
attacks on pets had ramped up in
this time period, and some people thought

787
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:10,039
that the construction of the Gross Reservoir
Damn expansion just south of Magnolia Road had

788
00:54:10,079 --> 00:54:15,519
pushed the cougars out of their territory
into this neighborhood. Some people thought that

789
00:54:15,559 --> 00:54:20,800
the increased deer hunting by humans was
dwindling their natural food source. One retired

790
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,199
wildlife ball just thought that low early
winter snowpack, which makes the walking on

791
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:30,199
the snow louder and chronic wasting disease
in the deer population could be the problem,

792
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:35,320
and some people just blamed habituation.
Attacks died down in mid December of

793
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,159
that year, but on December twenty
sixth, Caroline Bennett opened her back door

794
00:54:38,199 --> 00:54:43,400
to let out her Australian shepherd,
and an adult mountain lion had been waiting

795
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:45,960
on their porch grabbed the dog right
as it walked out, and then leaped

796
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:52,199
off the porch into the night.
So the next day, December twenty seventh,

797
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:53,719
that guy Sam Peterson I mentioned,
went to a house that had been

798
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:58,400
experiencing a lot of line activity,
like to the point where the lions were

799
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,880
kind of like casing the house and
like the owners could see the lions waiting

800
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:06,480
for their dogs, like around the
times that they'd normally let their dogs out.

801
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:09,960
So Sam started playing sounds of dogs
barking in an attempt to get the

802
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:14,559
lions to come near them, because
he had a beanbag gun and he was

803
00:55:14,599 --> 00:55:16,719
going to shoot any approaching lion to
try to deter them from being in the

804
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:23,079
area. But seven miles away around
the same time that night, Stephanie Ndlman

805
00:55:23,199 --> 00:55:28,320
and her partner Phil Chappel were unloading
their car with their eighty pound husky,

806
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:32,119
malomeat mixed Coda and he was the
dog was just sniffing around like ten feet

807
00:55:32,159 --> 00:55:37,880
from them. Stephanie heard a loud
and shrill scream from Coda and turned to

808
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:43,960
see a mountain lion twice his size
quote hugging him on the ground. She

809
00:55:44,119 --> 00:55:46,840
ran at the cat, screaming,
but with Coda in its paws, it

810
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:52,840
tucked and rolled into the road away
from her. So Phil grabbed a shovel

811
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:55,039
and started making as much noise as
he could, and finally the mountain lion

812
00:55:55,119 --> 00:56:00,159
released Coda, but it did not
go far, just went under their cabin

813
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:05,760
with Phil only ten feet away screaming
at it, and it continued to stare

814
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:10,599
at Coda, but eventually the cougar
did walk away, but it only walked

815
00:56:10,679 --> 00:56:16,480
four hundred yards up their neighbors driveway
and attacked their neighbor's dog, but this

816
00:56:16,679 --> 00:56:22,159
time the neighbor shot and killed the
mountain lion. And although, like we

817
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:24,960
just talked about, it is illegal
to do that, CPW didn't press charges

818
00:56:25,119 --> 00:56:30,159
due to the quote totality of the
circumstances. And I did find the website

819
00:56:30,159 --> 00:56:34,800
that they used to track the attacks, which is Wildlife Tracker Colorado dot com

820
00:56:35,199 --> 00:56:38,199
and the last attack reported was on
April twenty third, twenty twenty three,

821
00:56:38,519 --> 00:56:42,440
when a dog was taken off a
porch and killed in sugar Loaf, which

822
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:45,079
is a town near Netherland, despite
the owners trying to scare it off.

823
00:56:45,679 --> 00:56:51,519
And Sam did have some advice for
people who were experiencing this problem on what

824
00:56:51,599 --> 00:56:55,159
to do to protect their pets and
their property. He said to remove thick

825
00:56:55,199 --> 00:57:00,199
brush or tree limbs where cats can
lie in wait, use motion detection in

826
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:04,960
floodlights, and loud music around a
home's exterior, yelling or singing when traveling

827
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,599
through the woods or feeding horses and
gathering firewood, walk dogs on a leash,

828
00:57:09,119 --> 00:57:13,880
keep pets and doors during prime mountain
lion hunting times like dawn and dusk.

829
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:16,639
And they said if you have an
encounter with a mountain lion, contact

830
00:57:16,639 --> 00:57:22,400
cpw's Denver headquarters at three oh three
two nine seven one one nine two on

831
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:27,559
weekdays from eight am to five pm. And if your encounter occurs outside those

832
00:57:27,599 --> 00:57:30,039
hours, contact your local sheriff's office, which I will link. I will

833
00:57:30,039 --> 00:57:35,840
put all this info in the episode
description, But yeah, I hadn't heard

834
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:40,719
of another instance where like mountain lions
were serially killing dogs and approaching people to

835
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:44,719
kill dogs. I know P.
Twenty two did it towards the end,

836
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:49,000
but this was like a very extreme
circumstance. It seems, Yeah, this

837
00:57:49,199 --> 00:57:52,440
is wild. I've never really heard
about this. I'm surprised flew under my

838
00:57:52,519 --> 00:57:58,119
radar. That is like, you
know, horror levels of intensity right there.

839
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:02,320
Yeah, and say, someone who
has four dogs is scary to think

840
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:06,280
about that kind of thing. My
dogs is in the woods with me,

841
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:09,119
sniffing stuff and doing stuff, you
know. I mean, it's obviously an

842
00:58:09,159 --> 00:58:14,239
isolated case, right, It's not
like it happens all the time. The

843
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:19,679
advice given to keep your dogs safe
is good at solid advice. I'm very

844
00:58:19,719 --> 00:58:23,800
surprised. Usually fifty pounds or higher
is not something that mountain lions will usually

845
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:28,280
go for, unless if they're very
desperate. Yeah, it's kind of hard,

846
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,639
and they don't know if it's just
one lion or multiple lions. I

847
00:58:30,639 --> 00:58:34,079
would assume at this point, since
one of them was shot and killed and

848
00:58:34,239 --> 00:58:37,320
there's been more, it's probably more. It sounds like some sort of learned

849
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:42,519
behavior to me. Yeah, And
I'm wondering if it did start with like

850
00:58:42,719 --> 00:58:45,920
a mother feet and kittens dogs or
hunting dogs and teaching them how to hunt

851
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:50,760
dogs, and then it just kind
of went from there. The down expansion

852
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:53,800
definitely played a role in moving the
lions. I don't know if it made

853
00:58:53,840 --> 00:59:00,519
them attack dogs, though, usually
when there's like a territorial shift, it

854
00:59:00,639 --> 00:59:04,480
just usually ends up with some lines
either dying or leaving and then eventually dying.

855
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:09,000
So I'm very surprised to hear it, and it does suck. Right,

856
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:13,800
give me your pet on a leash
and indoors if possible, is the

857
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,039
best option. Right, If you
live in an area where there are predators,

858
00:59:17,039 --> 00:59:21,719
I would always advise, like open
the door, shine a flashlight across,

859
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:23,920
make sure, like and these are
ambush predators, so their job is

860
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:29,159
not to be seen. Right.
I've had people who have approached me in

861
00:59:29,239 --> 00:59:30,760
the past who say, like,
look, according to my ring cameras,

862
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:35,639
I have a mountainline that checks inside
my doors and my house every every other

863
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:38,559
night or whatever, and they go
by. Makes sense, right, I

864
00:59:38,599 --> 00:59:42,840
mean, I look at my neighborhood. I'm like, I'm not lying,

865
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,559
wouldn't do it here. But if
it's like a house and then like a

866
00:59:45,599 --> 00:59:47,960
mile away is another house, to
them. It's just part of a habitat,

867
00:59:49,119 --> 00:59:52,920
right, And if you have cats
scurring it out around in the middle

868
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:57,199
of the night, the animals are
gonna get curious. So I usually suggest

869
00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:00,719
is that I have like outdoor radios, and some of these ones are really

870
01:00:00,719 --> 01:00:05,039
cool. You can program them to
start at a specific time, and so

871
01:00:05,119 --> 01:00:07,519
I always tell people, like,
if your dog is going out at six

872
01:00:07,559 --> 01:00:09,960
am, usually I advise for more
sunlight. But if your dog has to

873
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:13,360
go out at six am, which
is when you wake up, have a

874
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:17,400
radio with a podcast go off at
like five five point thirty, right,

875
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:22,480
or even like just fifteen minutes prior, have something go off that sounds like

876
01:00:22,519 --> 01:00:27,039
human voices. Go out, check
the yard first, like a scan with

877
01:00:27,079 --> 01:00:30,679
a particularly strong flashlight, and then
let your dog out. Right. It

878
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:35,880
minimizes, but it doesn't entirely reduce
the chances of that happening. Clearly,

879
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:38,199
Like in this case, there was
like ten feet away from them, and

880
01:00:38,239 --> 01:00:40,719
they ran up and grabbed the dogs, right, and stuff like that.

881
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:46,480
It's like an extreme case of that
happening. Obviously, yeahed injured animals will

882
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:52,000
do that, desperate animals will do
that, and sometimes just animals. Right,

883
01:00:52,679 --> 01:00:55,239
you know, the food is a
great reinforcer, so if you get

884
01:00:55,239 --> 01:01:00,840
away with doing it once or twice, you're gonna keep doing it. Dogs

885
01:01:00,039 --> 01:01:05,599
don't always have the best survival skills, so it makes sense some of these

886
01:01:05,599 --> 01:01:07,800
guys are just lovable idiots. Yep. I have two of them. Out

887
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:12,800
of the four dogs that I'm looking
right now, I think maybe two will

888
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:16,239
bite back in case of an attack. Haven't you used this podcast before to

889
01:01:16,239 --> 01:01:20,159
scare away about lines like on a
round I have. I still do.

890
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:22,480
I still use Get Out Alive as
a podcast, like as one of the

891
01:01:22,519 --> 01:01:27,199
options for people. I'm like,
here you go. It's what I usually

892
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:29,760
use things that I know people talk
about a lot. You know, there's

893
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:34,599
there's certain radio stations or podcasts that
do talk, but then there's like musical

894
01:01:34,639 --> 01:01:37,400
interludes and then they talk again and
stuff like that, And I try and

895
01:01:37,519 --> 01:01:43,199
keep it to the point where like, talk regularly and then different voices is

896
01:01:43,239 --> 01:01:45,079
really important. Don't play the same
thing all the time and stuff like that

897
01:01:45,159 --> 01:01:49,960
to prevent that habituation. So what
we got to do is start switching up

898
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:52,199
our tone to voice and start talking
to the mountain lions directly, so it'd

899
01:01:52,199 --> 01:01:54,679
be like, hey, if you're
a mountainlined listening to this, get out

900
01:01:54,679 --> 01:01:58,760
of here, Get out. I
think you talk to you enough different people

901
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,440
that it is is not very that
it gets fine, you know. Yeah,

902
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:06,239
God, I just like I'm trying
to imagine what it would be like

903
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:08,079
to be in that position. You
know, No, and you know I

904
01:02:08,159 --> 01:02:12,440
live here, So you're in California
where you know you have these animals around

905
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:14,559
you, but like I live here
in New England. We don't have them

906
01:02:14,599 --> 01:02:16,519
here anymore, and we don't have
wolves. Like the biggest things we have

907
01:02:16,559 --> 01:02:21,679
are coyotes and bears. And I
live like behind me is miles of woods.

908
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:23,840
I know that there's coyotes and bears
there. I have a porch that

909
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:28,440
hasn't underneath. I let my dogs
out my fenced in yard. I never

910
01:02:28,519 --> 01:02:30,400
think, like I'll like, look, you know, once in the yard

911
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:32,840
before I let them out. But
like, I can't imagine having to go

912
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:37,320
outside, look for a predator that
could easily kill me, and then decide

913
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:39,559
if I'm going to let my dogs
out. I can't imagine what it's like

914
01:02:39,639 --> 01:02:42,920
having to live that life. So
I feel so bad for these people and

915
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:46,360
having to find your dog dead.
Oh God, I can't cannot imagine,

916
01:02:47,559 --> 01:02:52,320
you know, instances like this is
what, in terms of perception, sets

917
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:57,639
you back ages. Yeah, there
are thousands of cities and thousands of towns

918
01:02:57,639 --> 01:03:00,159
that live with mountainons amongst them,
and you don't get instances like this,

919
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:07,559
right, But obviously this one making
the news and existing is going to change

920
01:03:07,679 --> 01:03:13,239
the perspective somewhat. It's tough,
and I think the best thing you can

921
01:03:14,119 --> 01:03:16,000
I don't know about carrying a gun
again, I don't know if I would

922
01:03:16,039 --> 01:03:20,400
try and shoot them outline that has
a hold of my dog. Yeah,

923
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:22,760
I'm not that good of a shot, right, I am not that good

924
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:24,119
of a shot. I don't think
I can do it. And the same

925
01:03:24,199 --> 01:03:27,800
goes for like, you know,
pepper spray and stuff like that. Dogs

926
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:30,880
are dogs, Like if you pepper
spray them, they'll run away. If

927
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:32,559
you bear spray them, they'll probably
run away, right, and then you

928
01:03:32,679 --> 01:03:37,079
just lost your dog. Probably gonna
get eaten by a mountlon. Maybe so.

929
01:03:37,119 --> 01:03:42,719
Tactics that are usually commonly used to
deter lifestyle guardian dogs from getting killed,

930
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:46,360
and these are very state dependent because
some of these could be illegal.

931
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:52,639
Right, but there are callers out
there that have spikes and there are little

932
01:03:52,679 --> 01:03:55,719
I think there's little dog vests,
Chihuahua vests with spikes, well post one

933
01:03:55,719 --> 01:04:01,079
on Instagram. They're very silly.
Some of these are not made from good

934
01:04:01,119 --> 01:04:06,719
material, right, and so will
easily bend or whatever. There are options,

935
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:10,559
right, especially the collars with the
spikes. It doesn't kill your dog,

936
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:12,880
It won't protect your dog one hundred
percent, but it does give it

937
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:16,119
an opportunity, protects the most vulnerable
spaces. And that's that's reaching to the

938
01:04:16,159 --> 01:04:20,800
extreme. I honestly would say put
some put some human voices on, get

939
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:25,360
out check it, try not to
go walking with your dog, or try

940
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:28,280
not to let them out when it's
dusk or dawn. Yeah. Right,

941
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:31,440
but again, as we said prior
to the podcast, is one hundred and

942
01:04:31,559 --> 01:04:34,039
ten here now it's one hundred and
fifteen the other day, Like when am

943
01:04:34,079 --> 01:04:36,719
I going to walk my dogs?
Right, it's either as soon as the

944
01:04:36,719 --> 01:04:40,159
sun goes down or right before the
sun comes up. Right. Yeah,

945
01:04:40,599 --> 01:04:44,920
So you win some, you loose
some. I think just making enough noise,

946
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:47,440
singing, talking, keeping your pet
on the leak the only reason why

947
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:50,800
the leash is a good idea,
even when they do stuff like come and

948
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:56,079
grab your dog from under your feet, right, is because you act as

949
01:04:56,079 --> 01:05:00,159
another resistance, and that's really all
that there is when it comes to these

950
01:05:00,159 --> 01:05:03,639
animal attacks, is you're trying to
make it as hard as possible for these

951
01:05:03,679 --> 01:05:08,320
animals to kill you or take your
pet or whatever. So they decide,

952
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:11,039
I'm going to go somewhere else and
deal with it, and hopefully that somewhere

953
01:05:11,039 --> 01:05:15,199
else is a natural resource except your
neighbor's dog, which is what happened in

954
01:05:15,199 --> 01:05:17,440
this situation. Yeah, oh my
god, I know this is this is

955
01:05:17,679 --> 01:05:20,840
bizarre one and it definitely feels like
some sort of learned behavior. To me.

956
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:24,920
It feels like some of them outlines
just picked up that these are easy

957
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:29,039
prey. And the fact that you
know some of them were waiting until the

958
01:05:29,079 --> 01:05:32,239
dogs were let out, yeah,
just indicates to me like that this is

959
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:36,159
what they learned, right, They
learned they were watching. I think like

960
01:05:36,239 --> 01:05:39,480
when you say they learned and they're
watching, people must have think like,

961
01:05:39,519 --> 01:05:43,599
oh, they just sat down in
the house and watched it for days and

962
01:05:43,679 --> 01:05:45,119
stalked it. And I don't think
that's what happened. I just think they

963
01:05:45,199 --> 01:05:47,840
kind of learn In your head,
you kind of pick up some of the

964
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:50,880
patterns that happen when a dog is
going to be let out, right,

965
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:56,840
Yeah, especially in quiet communities,
they probably hear the walking of the dog

966
01:05:56,880 --> 01:05:59,880
and the person. They probably see
some lights turning on and they're like,

967
01:05:59,880 --> 01:06:03,440
oh, this person is going towards
to do this, Right. Do I

968
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:06,320
think there was a mountain line posted
in front of a house every day for

969
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:11,159
a week to find out right down
the dog's potty patterns? No? But

970
01:06:11,239 --> 01:06:15,079
do I think they've picked up on
some environmental cues on what it's like for

971
01:06:15,159 --> 01:06:17,239
humans to let their dogs out.
Yes, and I think they were utilizing

972
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:21,800
them very very well. Yeah,
so maybe that's another piece of advice,

973
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:26,320
like switch it up. He Yeah, It's possible that the mountain lions that

974
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:29,719
were doing this either learn from that
one mountainine being killed, like oh,

975
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:31,880
maybe we shouldn't do this anymore,
or they naturally died or moved on,

976
01:06:32,039 --> 01:06:34,519
like maybe more prey became available.
But yeah, it does seem like that

977
01:06:34,559 --> 01:06:40,119
pattern finally broke and I couldn't find
any more information from that neighborhood specifically,

978
01:06:40,199 --> 01:06:44,440
but hopefully things have calmed down.
Hey, if you're anyone from that neighborhood,

979
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:46,320
reach out to Ashley. Right,
if you're a nedhead. You let

980
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:50,280
me know. You know, I
think I would be interested to see if

981
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:54,800
the tags were taken the past couple
of years and if that did some sort

982
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:58,840
of impact, right. Yeah,
they said they were unutilized for a while

983
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:02,320
now before that happened thousand and five. Yeah. I'm not a huge proponent

984
01:07:02,559 --> 01:07:09,199
of hunting is a solution to solve
conflict. I think it causes more conflict

985
01:07:09,199 --> 01:07:12,320
in a lot of situations than it
does others, and I think it just

986
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:18,079
redirects specific conflicts to other people.
Yeah, but I'm wondering in this case,

987
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:23,840
if there was some pressure put on
the lions, either a reduced population

988
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:28,400
in a fairly small area, right, which would definitely have an impact,

989
01:07:28,719 --> 01:07:31,199
or if it was just enough to
be like, Okay, this area is

990
01:07:31,239 --> 01:07:35,079
no good for me. There's people
around kicking around the woods shooting guns.

991
01:07:35,079 --> 01:07:39,559
Like, even if you don't kill
the lion, the noise itself like would

992
01:07:39,559 --> 01:07:44,039
have been enough. Right. And
I don't know if part of the tags

993
01:07:44,119 --> 01:07:47,800
allowed for hunting hounds, but if
you if you ever had the opportunity to

994
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:53,760
look at what it's like to like
hunt amount lion with hounds, very chaotic,

995
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:58,280
yeah, and it's stressful it's really
stressful for the animal itself, and

996
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:04,480
that association dog sparking is scary versus
dogs barking is meal time might have made

997
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:09,519
a difference, very true. I
know that that's one of the arguments that

998
01:08:09,679 --> 01:08:16,720
hound masters hound hunters are using to
reinstate hound hunting in California and other states,

999
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:19,359
that they banded or limited it.
Man, I don't know. My

1000
01:08:19,359 --> 01:08:25,399
feelings are complicated. It's obviously used
for research a lot, because it is

1001
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:29,279
very useful to be able to treat
them outline safely, you know, shoot

1002
01:08:29,279 --> 01:08:31,119
anesthesia on it, recover it,
take it down, collar it, and

1003
01:08:31,159 --> 01:08:35,199
all that good stuff. But also
I don't really know how fair game it

1004
01:08:35,279 --> 01:08:39,319
is for the animal. It feels
really stressful for all large chunk of it.

1005
01:08:39,359 --> 01:08:42,880
But I also do know having talked
to a lot of people that especially

1006
01:08:43,039 --> 01:08:47,359
hound people have a really huge appreciation
for the animal themselves. Like they are

1007
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:51,600
if you look at any of the
conservation stories, they're in the forefront for

1008
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:57,359
trying to conserve the animals and trying
to limit you know, the take for

1009
01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:00,680
males and females and stuff like that. So maybe it's just a practice that

1010
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:05,279
is gonna suck, but it's gonna
help. Yeah, Like in a lot

1011
01:09:05,319 --> 01:09:10,439
of things with wildlife, you need
some nuance. Sometimes maybe it's a good

1012
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:13,319
idea to let a bunch of dogs
roam around the woods and bark and scare

1013
01:09:13,319 --> 01:09:17,000
mountains, because it might just teach
them don't kill dogs. Right, Yeah,

1014
01:09:17,359 --> 01:09:21,239
it's the beauty of wild life management. It is messy all the time

1015
01:09:23,119 --> 01:09:27,079
and nuanced all the time. Yeah, you have biology. Really, what

1016
01:09:27,199 --> 01:09:30,479
applies to one situation might not apply
to another. Oh my god. Yeah,

1017
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:33,960
I mean we just did a bonus
episode last month on gay and queer

1018
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:38,880
animals and it's like, there is
no nature does not fit in any box.

1019
01:09:39,199 --> 01:09:43,119
Ever, there's always exceptions. There's
always weird things. Yeah, no,

1020
01:09:43,359 --> 01:09:46,840
if boxes are boring. So on
that note, thank you so much

1021
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:50,479
for doing this, Petros. Where
can people you gosh? I am on

1022
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:57,000
Twitter, I am under just peachrisofice
my handle. I am on Facebook.

1023
01:09:57,000 --> 01:10:00,760
You can go find Predator Detection and
Deterrence on Facebook or the website itself.

1024
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:06,000
It's been a while since it's been
updated because life just takes a humble but

1025
01:10:06,239 --> 01:10:10,119
it's there. There's some there's a
lot of helpful tips there when it comes

1026
01:10:10,119 --> 01:10:15,000
to dealing with animals. And there's
going to be more uploaded sometime soon and

1027
01:10:15,279 --> 01:10:19,199
Instagram Chrisoffus Petros and there's email links
to those if any of you have any

1028
01:10:19,279 --> 01:10:24,119
issues that you want to address,
and yeah, that's pretty much it cool.

1029
01:10:24,199 --> 01:10:26,920
Yeah, link those in the episode
description so people can find you if

1030
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:30,159
they need help. And yeah,
thanks again, always a pleasure. Thank

1031
01:10:30,199 --> 01:10:34,640
you. All right, that was
episode eighty two with Petros and me talking

1032
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:39,319
about mountain lions once again. And
if you want more info on mountain lions

1033
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:44,159
or just more info about Petros,
check out the episode description to get links

1034
01:10:44,159 --> 01:10:46,680
to all of his socials. That's
where you could also find links to our

1035
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:50,279
website and all of our socials.
And also if you check out our website,

1036
01:10:50,399 --> 01:10:55,600
I'm now trying to post blogs that
kind of summarize our episodes and give

1037
01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:58,760
you main points of the episode.
So like, if you're struggling, for

1038
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:00,920
example, with mountain lions in your
neighborhood or you're worried about them as you

1039
01:11:00,920 --> 01:11:04,439
go hiking, you can check out
a blog post that summarizes everything for you

1040
01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:08,760
so you can read it whenever you
need. Thank you all so much for

1041
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:12,319
listening. Thank you for your patience, your continued support, everything. I

1042
01:11:12,359 --> 01:11:15,840
hope you're all having a fantastic summer, and we'll see you in two weeks

1043
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:18,439
with a new animal tax story voted
on by your patrons. See you then,