1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:28,519 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:32,479 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,799 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:50,200 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly 10 00:00:50,359 --> 00:00:54,439 and I'm Bill Thomas, and welcome to an episode that we're going to call 11 00:00:54,679 --> 00:01:00,920 ruminations. With Bill and Kristen, we're like maybe antifications, I don't know, 12 00:01:03,359 --> 00:01:06,480 Okay, trying to come up I'm trying to come up with the right 13 00:01:06,519 --> 00:01:08,560 adjective and I'm just not sure which it is, but between the two of 14 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,799 us, it could be one or the either of those words. What's the 15 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:18,840 question we're asking today. The question that we're talking about, it's actually two 16 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,959 questions, and it came as the result of two articles that I saw and 17 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,000 decided to share with you since because they were in my head, it's only 18 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,560 fair that they're in yours, too, fair enough. So the first article 19 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:37,799 was about national shooter Audrey Hale and about whether or not the manifesto that she 20 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:42,879 wrote should be released to the public after the behavioral analysis unit is done with 21 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:48,719 it at Quantico. I do remember initially they had indicated, yeah, we'll 22 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:53,879 release this, but the article basically said, actually, we're going to maybe 23 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,319 walk back on that a little bit. And the question was should we be 24 00:01:57,439 --> 00:02:01,879 releasing this stuff for the general public to see, Like, of what value 25 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:07,680 is there to see the I guess in some case rantings or ramblings of someone 26 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:14,159 like James Holmes or Eric Harrison, Dylan Cleebald, or in the most recent 27 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,759 case, Audrey Hale. And I'm realizing, as I'm saying the most recent 28 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,960 case, that's not the most recent mass shooting, and that's actually really sad 29 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,960 too. Sadly what's happening now is there are so many mass shootings in the 30 00:02:25,039 --> 00:02:30,199 United States, one after another, that I know both of us get confused 31 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:36,120 in terms of which one are we talking about. And Nashville is not the 32 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,919 latest mass shooting. We've had several mass shootings since there's been an agreed upon 33 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,800 definition that a mass shooting is someone who is shooting four or more people. 34 00:02:46,159 --> 00:02:53,199 And that's happening like every single week here in the US and nowhere else on 35 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,360 the planet. And we have to keep coming back to that because there are 36 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:02,280 guns around the world, the crazy people and disturbed people and mentally ill people 37 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:07,240 around the world, some of whom might be violent, but there's nowhere else 38 00:03:07,479 --> 00:03:13,680 on the planet that we have this combination of guns and all of these other 39 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:20,520 factors which are resulting in a mass shooting every single week. It's crazy. 40 00:03:21,439 --> 00:03:27,400 The question of do we release these manifestos, I think it's a valid question. 41 00:03:27,479 --> 00:03:31,400 I think it's an important question now when we use the term manifesto. 42 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:37,319 Of course, what I think arises to everyone's mind is the Unibomber Manifesto, 43 00:03:37,639 --> 00:03:42,199 which our good friend Jim Fitzgerald has talked about at length, including a couple 44 00:03:42,199 --> 00:03:46,000 of episodes on this podcast. I know when you and I were talking off 45 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,400 air as we were kicking around this topic we talked about the value of releasing 46 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,120 the unibomb manifesto, largely because it helped to catch the guy. Let's talk 47 00:03:54,159 --> 00:03:59,400 about that for a minute, just as a reminder, the unibomber had been 48 00:03:59,479 --> 00:04:04,000 killing for I think close to two decades, if I'm not mistaken. From 49 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:11,039 talking to Fits, they were still desperate to find this person, and the 50 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:16,839 FBI had been attempting to track him four years. The thinking was that in 51 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:24,079 publishing the manifesto in two major newspapers, The New York Times in the Washington 52 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:29,839 Post, if I'm not mistaken, the idea was that perhaps someone would recognize 53 00:04:29,959 --> 00:04:34,839 the language, which was very unique within this lengthy, kind of scholarly document 54 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:42,360 with an anti technology slant. The hope was someone would recognize his language, 55 00:04:42,439 --> 00:04:47,079 and we can't forget this. That's exactly what happened. Yes, now, 56 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:54,160 Fits and others within the FBI argued in favor of putting out the manifesto with 57 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,639 this goal in mind. Look, if we put this out, there's a 58 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:01,000 possibility that someone's going to recognize this language. What happens. His sister in 59 00:05:01,079 --> 00:05:06,399 law and then her husband, Ted Kazinski's brother, both read the manifesto after 60 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:13,319 it's published in major newspapers, and they realized this really sounds like the dissertation 61 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:19,439 and other scholarly type documents that Ted Kazinski had written. And then they contacted 62 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:26,480 a lawyer who contacted the FBI as an intermediary and said, my clients think 63 00:05:26,519 --> 00:05:30,040 they know who might be sending out these bombs, and people had been maimed 64 00:05:30,079 --> 00:05:35,759 and killed. So it's I think, very different in some ways. There 65 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:41,959 was an idea which actually worked, which was we think we might be able 66 00:05:41,959 --> 00:05:46,519 to identify this man and therefore hopefully capture him. That's a little different from 67 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:51,079 these manifestos. And I put air quotes around it that we're seeing from some 68 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:57,680 of these recent mass killers. When you look at mass shooters, even as 69 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,920 early as Eric Harris until and Cleve Bald, the Columbine shooters, they had 70 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:08,759 the Basement tapes, which they were actually really hoping that those tapes would be 71 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:13,399 released. They never have been. And I believe you said before we went 72 00:06:13,439 --> 00:06:15,519 on the air they'd actually been destroyed, were they not? They were? 73 00:06:15,759 --> 00:06:20,120 I'd heard about the Basement tapes before, which are a series of eight millimeter 74 00:06:20,519 --> 00:06:26,879 tapes they were shot on came quarters. Remember this is nineteen ninety nine, 75 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:32,399 Little minigaem Yeah, sounds like a long time ago now. Apparently the sheriff 76 00:06:32,639 --> 00:06:40,920 in Colorado made the decision to ultimately destroy the tapes with the support of the 77 00:06:40,959 --> 00:06:46,360 families who had lost loved ones at Columbine High School. Coming up to speed 78 00:06:46,399 --> 00:06:48,680 again on the Basement tapes. Hadn't read about them in a while. These 79 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:55,279 two morons actually thought they were going to become famous, and they even discussed 80 00:06:55,439 --> 00:07:00,279 on the tapes who's going to play them in the movie and which filmmaker is 81 00:07:00,319 --> 00:07:03,519 going to make a movie about them. I think the last thing we want 82 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:09,959 to do is be playing into the hands of these nutjobs who think this is 83 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,240 going to be their way of going out in a blaze of glory by killing 84 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,879 a whole bunch of people the idea. When I first read about the Basement 85 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,920 tapes, I was appalled just all the way around. And so you look 86 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:26,240 at something like the Basement tapes, you look at something like James Holmes writing 87 00:07:26,439 --> 00:07:30,639 James Holmes being the Aurora movie theater Shooter. We get a sense of what 88 00:07:30,879 --> 00:07:38,560 his writings were from Carrie Droben's book Aurora. That also is not something I 89 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:44,240 think that should be floating out and about in the world. It is actually 90 00:07:44,319 --> 00:07:47,519 you can read, James Holmes. I don't think it's really a manifesto. 91 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,480 I think it's just notebooks. And I looked at the material in preparing for 92 00:07:51,519 --> 00:07:58,519 this broadcast, James Holmes, The Aurora shooter's notebook is just filled with the 93 00:07:58,639 --> 00:08:03,240 ravings of a madman. He's just got the same word repeated over and over 94 00:08:03,319 --> 00:08:07,399 again on certain pages, why thirty or forty times just that word and a 95 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:13,120 question mark. There are places where he does discuss a bit more kind of 96 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:18,600 planning of where he's going to lash out and where he's going to kill people. 97 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,560 He considered airports, he considered a movie theater, and then finally he 98 00:08:22,639 --> 00:08:28,519 decided to attack a movie theater because that's much more vulnerable, much less security. 99 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,480 So there may be some benefit to law enforcement. I'm not actually sure 100 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:41,360 there's any public good though in releasing these manifestos. Yeah, I think that 101 00:08:41,519 --> 00:08:45,279 it is one thing if you're a psychologist or a psychiatrist and you were looking 102 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:50,440 to gain insight into the criminal mind, and then absolutely the BAU would have 103 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,720 a vested interest in it. Psychologists would have a vested interest in it. 104 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:58,879 But I don't think that it is something that needs to be broadcast for ever 105 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:05,559 everyone to see now as humans who are very invested in true crime culturally right 106 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,440 now in the United States, are people going to be interested in what Audrey 107 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,279 Hale had to say and why she decided to shoot up the Covenant School. 108 00:09:13,759 --> 00:09:18,600 Yes, probably people are going to be very interested. But do they need 109 00:09:18,639 --> 00:09:22,120 to see a chapter in verse in what is very likely the rantings of, 110 00:09:22,279 --> 00:09:24,759 as you said earlier, a mad person. I don't think we need to 111 00:09:24,799 --> 00:09:30,879 see that. I don't think we do. Audrey Hale is dead. She 112 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:37,720 was shot to death by Nashville Betpolitan police officers responding to the mass shooting at 113 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,840 the Covenant School. She's not going to go on trial. In some of 114 00:09:41,879 --> 00:09:48,159 these examples, like James Holmes, the Aurora shooter, he actually went on 115 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:54,720 trial, and so these materials were introduced as part of the legal proceeding, 116 00:09:54,919 --> 00:09:58,960 which is how they ended up in the public now that you actually don't learn 117 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:03,480 that much in James Holmes example, and we don't know what's in Audrey Hale's 118 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:09,000 notebooks. Apparently she was incredibly organized and had all of these files and just 119 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,639 a lot of material. I think that would probably be worth as you said 120 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:20,519 a moment ago, Kristen, law enforcement profilers, the FBI, the Nashville 121 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:28,360 Metropolitan Police Department, the Department of Justice, those people studying to see what's 122 00:10:28,399 --> 00:10:33,600 going on with mass shooters of this type, And what was Audrey Hale thinking 123 00:10:33,879 --> 00:10:37,240 before she made the decision to go in and shoot up a school that she'd 124 00:10:37,279 --> 00:10:43,720 actually attended some years before and killed both students and teachers and administrators there. 125 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:50,360 I'm not sure there's really much public benefit to that. No, I don't 126 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,480 think there is. Again, I think that as a culture, we are 127 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:58,679 very fascinated, sometimes healthfully so, with what goes on in the minds of 128 00:10:58,799 --> 00:11:03,240 killers. I think that if the benefit is to law enforcement and law enforcement 129 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:07,320 alone, absolutely they should have access to it. But do the rest of 130 00:11:07,399 --> 00:11:11,759 us need to know the murky, dark things that are happening in the minds 131 00:11:11,759 --> 00:11:16,200 of the Eric Harris and Dylan Cleibolts of the world. I'm going to sleep 132 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,039 a whole lot better if I don't know that, I think. And as 133 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,559 you mentioned when we were off the air too, Kristen, one of the 134 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:30,320 experts regarding the clear Bold Harris basement tapes had said they didn't want to see 135 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:35,200 those released, because they also talked in quite a bit of depth about their 136 00:11:35,279 --> 00:11:41,879 planning, what they went out and purchased in order to have weapons and explosives, 137 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:46,000 what materials they purchased. They even videotaped themselves on the way to and 138 00:11:46,039 --> 00:11:52,000 from the various stores where they bought these things. They were buying civilian items 139 00:11:52,039 --> 00:11:56,879 and then working to turn those into explosive devices with some success. And as 140 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,919 you pointed out, one of the law enforcements experts said, this actually is 141 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:07,480 a roadmap for someone who might want to commit a similar crime. Yeah, 142 00:12:07,519 --> 00:12:13,279 it's a blueprint for any teenage copycat that decides they want their ten minutes of 143 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,720 fame the same way that Harris and Cleibold got theirs. I don't think there's 144 00:12:16,879 --> 00:12:20,519 any reason why things like that need to be released to the public. Now. 145 00:12:20,799 --> 00:12:24,080 If you read, for example, Dave Collen's Columbine, which is an 146 00:12:24,159 --> 00:12:28,440 excellent book, he does offer excerpts and things like that, and that's fine 147 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:33,320 because that is it is all part of the narrative. But would I want 148 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,720 to see what they put out there into the world released for everybody to read 149 00:12:37,759 --> 00:12:41,759 it. No, not at all. I don't think there's value to that, 150 00:12:41,399 --> 00:12:45,519 And It is just a it is just a roadmap. Like you said, 151 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,279 it's a blueprint for the next person who wants to have notoriety to pick 152 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,360 it up and go. You know what, that sounds like a great idea, 153 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:58,120 Let's go. There are transcripts available of the Dylan Cleebold Eric Harris basement 154 00:12:58,159 --> 00:13:03,960 tapes, word for word what was said by these two individuals in the interests 155 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,759 of everyone's mental health, and I'm talking about the collective of the Big WII 156 00:13:07,879 --> 00:13:11,120 here. Yes, I don't know that we really need to see this stuff. 157 00:13:11,519 --> 00:13:18,840 Now. There may be people that are studying criminology psychology, they may 158 00:13:18,919 --> 00:13:26,120 want access to transcripts of this series of eight millimeter tapes that the Columbine High 159 00:13:26,159 --> 00:13:31,320 School shooters made, but they don't need to see the tapes themselves. And 160 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,960 I think what the sheriff was trying to do, and as I mentioned, 161 00:13:35,039 --> 00:13:39,440 he had the full support of the families. They were perfectly fine with destroying 162 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:46,480 the tapes because who wants to see those two losers forever boasting about what they 163 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,559 were about to do. They shot these tapes over weeks, including just shortly 164 00:13:50,639 --> 00:13:58,480 before they actually committed the heinous as that they brought to Columbine High School that 165 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:03,600 day. We both know there's so much interest now and true crime. There's 166 00:14:03,639 --> 00:14:09,960 a lot of material that tends to leak, so it ends up just all 167 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:13,919 over the place. And of course this wondrous tool, the World Wide Web, 168 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,519 that we all use and we're using as we record this podcast, it 169 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:26,000 also allows for very quick distribution of often extremely disturbing material that most of us 170 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:31,200 don't need to see. One of the things that I remember very clearly from 171 00:14:31,679 --> 00:14:35,440 one of the crime cons that we went to in the last couple of years, 172 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,360 I think it was New Orleans. They have a tendency to blend together 173 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,399 because they're all action packed and with a lot of information. But what I 174 00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:48,360 do I think this, I think this was New Orleans. It was Chris 175 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,759 Darden speaking. Was that New Orleans? It was pretty amazing, And I 176 00:14:50,759 --> 00:14:54,440 think that was New Orleans. Yes, So I remember that he was doing 177 00:14:54,559 --> 00:15:01,000 his excellent presentation, which really was phenomenally he's a great speed Yeah, but 178 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:07,799 I remember that in his PowerPoint he included very graphic, un edited crime scene 179 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:13,559 photos from the Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman murders, and I remember thinking, 180 00:15:13,039 --> 00:15:18,960 oh, Man, and I never wanted to see those. I didn't 181 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:24,159 either, and at the same time, I didn't recall those ever being shown 182 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:28,360 publicly before. No, they weren't. To the best of my knowledge, 183 00:15:28,399 --> 00:15:31,679 they weren't. And that's the sort of thing that there are people out there 184 00:15:31,799 --> 00:15:33,720 who, when they learn about this case for the first time, they go, 185 00:15:33,799 --> 00:15:37,279 oh, let's see if there are crime scene photos, the same way 186 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:41,879 that there are people who google the manson crime scene photos. And people have 187 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:48,600 contacted me and they've actually asked me for copies of the Colonial Parkway murders crime 188 00:15:48,639 --> 00:15:54,679 scene photos which were leaked by the FBI about thirteen or more years ago, 189 00:15:54,919 --> 00:16:00,360 and I'm going to share them with oddball people that I've never met. There 190 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,000 are times when I don't know what to say other than no. Yeah. 191 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,679 The number of times we've had that request is a little alarming. It's like, 192 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,320 where do you get that the idea that might be an actual, okay 193 00:16:11,399 --> 00:16:17,440 request to make to the brother of a victim. I mentioned to you at 194 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:22,120 one point I was contacted by someone who was purporting to put together a museum 195 00:16:22,159 --> 00:16:29,039 about serial killers and they wanted something of my sisters alcatraziast. I think it 196 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,799 was Yeah, why in the world would you think that was an okay thing 197 00:16:32,879 --> 00:16:37,600 to ask, And I've expressed some regret here on Mind over Murder at different 198 00:16:37,639 --> 00:16:42,360 times. We actually didn't end up with very much of the things that belonged 199 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,879 to Kathy. I'm not a big believer that things are important, but there 200 00:16:45,879 --> 00:16:49,840 are times when I think I would have liked a few more little momentos that 201 00:16:49,879 --> 00:16:53,559 would have reminded me of Kathy. And I think in retrospect, we made 202 00:16:53,559 --> 00:16:57,159 a bit of a mistake. We were in a kind of purging, giving 203 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:03,919 away boxing and ee been shipping it off somewhere mode, mostly driven by my 204 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,200 parents, which I understand, but I have regret now that, for example, 205 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:15,319 we threw away hundreds of letters and cards that were sent by Kathy's friends, 206 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,359 many of them from the Naval Academy and from the Navy, and they 207 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:23,079 were lovely and they contained funny stories and things that made them really love and 208 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:27,640 care about Kathy. And my parents decided we needed to get rid of them, 209 00:17:27,799 --> 00:17:32,839 I think because perhaps they felt that they were too painful. Now my 210 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,440 brothers and I are sorry, because we think it would be really lovely to 211 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,119 have those things. I'm not saying I'd look at them every day or every 212 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,640 week, but it'd be nice to have them in a box somewhere. Yeah. 213 00:17:44,279 --> 00:17:51,799 Yeah, I think it's odd and sometimes disturbing the way people will ask 214 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:57,960 for things that are incredibly personal and often highly disturbing, and expect, for 215 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,640 example, to be a to read the rantings of an obviously crazy person, 216 00:18:03,839 --> 00:18:10,559 or watch these videotapes recorded by these two killers. And with regard to the 217 00:18:10,559 --> 00:18:14,400 crime scene photos, Bill and I have both seen them, they are not 218 00:18:14,599 --> 00:18:18,720 things that we want to see. Again, it's just not. I'm sure 219 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,119 that there are people out there who are like, they're interested in it, 220 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:26,799 They're invested in the case, they want to know more. Please believe me, 221 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,359 you do not want to see what was done to these victims. You 222 00:18:30,519 --> 00:18:36,160 just don't because once you see it, as you've said a number of times, 223 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:37,839 Bill and I can say too, you can't un see it. It's 224 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:42,039 not out of your head ever, It's there. It's there when I close 225 00:18:42,079 --> 00:18:45,240 my eyes, it's on the back of my eyelids. You can't unsee it. 226 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,400 For every person who reaches out and is, hey, can I see 227 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,440 the crime scene photos, it's you don't want to do that to yourself. 228 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,559 You just don't. No, and on some level, I think to myself, 229 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,640 I'm going to give you a polite answer, even though I don't feel 230 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,119 like giving you a polite answer, Because for people to say, oh, 231 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,200 I want to see the crime scene photos because I'm interested, Are you serious? 232 00:19:08,519 --> 00:19:12,759 It would be another thing if it was a law enforcement officer or somebody 233 00:19:12,759 --> 00:19:18,839 in behavioral analysis, someone that had a legitimate reason to want to study the 234 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:23,000 crime scene photos. But for the most part, those people already have access 235 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,519 to them. And even when you and I started working together, it was 236 00:19:26,559 --> 00:19:30,559 a bit of a balancing act for me to try to figure out, Okay, 237 00:19:30,039 --> 00:19:33,799 what details are appropriate for me to ask and what are not, And 238 00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:38,559 so for the first couple of years, it was always me prefacing conversations with 239 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,279 if you don't want to answer this, you don't have to. But and 240 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,359 it was You've always been very generous. All of the family members have been 241 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:52,759 very generous about sharing things and insights that are deeply personal. But it was 242 00:19:52,839 --> 00:19:56,519 really only within the last year that I saw those crime scene photos, and 243 00:19:56,799 --> 00:20:02,160 I wish to god I hadn't. I know, they're very disturbing. You're 244 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:06,079 listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our 245 00:20:06,079 --> 00:20:15,200 sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. Among the articles that you shared 246 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:21,079 with me over the last week or so as we were discussing putting this podcast 247 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,920 together was a very powerful article from The New York Times. It was a 248 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:30,640 magazine story from April twentieth, twenty twenty three. We'll link to this in 249 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:37,680 the show notes. I urge all of our listeners to read this story, 250 00:20:37,839 --> 00:20:41,400 and of course The New York Times is not behind a paywall, thankfully. 251 00:20:41,839 --> 00:20:48,839 This article is incredibly powerful and moving. It focuses on three investigators who worked 252 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:56,400 on the Sandy Hook shooting in twenty twelve and Sandy Hook, Connecticut, where 253 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:02,720 twenty six people were murdered, and it's a very powerful article. I don't 254 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,720 think most of us will be able to get through without shedding a few tears. 255 00:21:06,079 --> 00:21:11,920 Oh yeah. But they talked about the impact that working that crime scene 256 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:21,079 with twenty six victims, what that was like for these pretty hardened professional people, 257 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,440 but also people with hearts and souls and minds that, like you said, 258 00:21:25,519 --> 00:21:30,519 can't turn the images that they've seen off. They went home to their 259 00:21:30,599 --> 00:21:37,079 families and really struggled. They mentioned that there are fourteen hundred and ninety five 260 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,880 photos. That's almost fifteen hundred photos of the crime scene from Sandy Hook, 261 00:21:42,319 --> 00:21:48,359 most of which are so horrifying they've never been shown to the public, and 262 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:55,200 they talked about being obligated to show them to Eric Holder, who was then 263 00:21:55,240 --> 00:22:00,440 the Attorney General of the United States, and a group of FBI agents and 264 00:22:00,519 --> 00:22:07,440 behavioral analysis people. Just the reaction of those individuals, and these are trained 265 00:22:07,519 --> 00:22:11,799 law enforcement people who've seen a lot, maybe have seen it all, as 266 00:22:11,839 --> 00:22:17,880 we have said, many of them also had military experience and had seen combat. 267 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,240 A number of people in this article actually said that the crime scene photos 268 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:29,720 from Sandy Hook were worse than anything they'd ever seen, even in combat. 269 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:37,279 The slugline for this it's very evocative, and it's just two sentences. They 270 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:42,759 saw the horrific aftermath of a mass shooting. Should we It's a very powerful 271 00:22:42,839 --> 00:22:48,440 question, it is. It was an extremely powerful article. As you said, 272 00:22:48,759 --> 00:22:53,599 I cried quite a few times quite a bit while reading it. It 273 00:22:53,640 --> 00:23:00,640 does bring up a very interesting point. While we don't want to encourage the 274 00:23:00,759 --> 00:23:07,799 rantings and ravings of people who just want to get true crime famous by releasing 275 00:23:07,839 --> 00:23:11,720 the manifestos of mass shooters, should we be doing more to make sure that 276 00:23:11,759 --> 00:23:18,240 people understand the outcome of mass shootings. There's a lot of angles for this. 277 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,680 Can we do that while still being respectful to the victims? I don't 278 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,240 know. I'm not sure that you can do that when it's something like Sandy 279 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,960 Hook, when you've got twenty six victims and most of them are children. 280 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,960 How do you do that? But at the same time to be perfectly honest. 281 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:38,720 And I remember exactly where I was when I heard about Sandy Hook. 282 00:23:38,759 --> 00:23:41,519 I was actually in the front office at my school where I teach now, 283 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:47,920 and I remember thinking, if slaughtered children does not make this country change its 284 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,359 stance on gun violence, I don't know what will. And the answer clearly 285 00:23:51,519 --> 00:23:56,839 is not that I'd have to agree, and my personal access is always going 286 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:03,000 to bend towards respect for victims. I have a concern, however, and 287 00:24:03,079 --> 00:24:07,039 I think you're touching on this, which is for us as a society, 288 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:14,799 if we don't actually see the damage and the physical damage that's being done by 289 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,119 weapons of war. And I'm not talking about a standard handgun here. I'm 290 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:27,000 talking about AR fifteen style weapons or the Bushmaster rifle that was used by the 291 00:24:27,079 --> 00:24:34,400 shooter in Sandy hook. If we don't actually see some of the physical damage, 292 00:24:34,839 --> 00:24:41,799 on some level, we're being shielded, protected from the carnage that's happening 293 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:47,240 in these mass shootings. I was shocked. I remember this happening, but 294 00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:53,000 I'd forgotten or perhaps blocked it from my mind that sixteen little kids had crowded 295 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:59,599 into the bathroom, which was three feet by four feet, and we're all 296 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:04,319 shot to death in that completely confined space. They weren't even able to fall 297 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:11,759 to the ground. The investigators who had to work that crime scene for days 298 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:18,440 were so horrified by what they'd seen and what that shooter and what that gun 299 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:25,319 did to those little children to the point where they weren't even recognizable as human 300 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:32,359 beings. The level of just shocking injury to these little, tiny kids is 301 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:37,160 something that is going to haunt these people, all of these investigators, the 302 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:42,000 medical examiners, everyone that worked this case for the rest of their lives. 303 00:25:44,039 --> 00:25:48,759 I'm actually wondering if there's got to be a way for us to come to 304 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,680 understand how much damage is being done to these victims and to us as a 305 00:25:53,720 --> 00:26:02,839 society by these endless mass shooting. Right after the Nashville Covenant School shooting, 306 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,400 it was either the evening of or the day after. The Washington Post made 307 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,920 what I think was a pretty bold step, and they produced a piece called 308 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:22,440 the Blast Effect. It shows what AR fifteen rounds due to the human body 309 00:26:22,519 --> 00:26:26,480 when it blasts through tissue, bones, and organs. And they did it 310 00:26:26,519 --> 00:26:30,000 in a way that's very interesting. They did not use crime scene photos, 311 00:26:30,319 --> 00:26:34,839 but they did some like three D modeling, or every time you scrolled up 312 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,759 on the screen, there would be a picture of a just a facsimile of 313 00:26:38,799 --> 00:26:44,279 a human body, no features or anything like that, and it would show 314 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:52,720 the pattern of injuries obtained by They chose two people from two school shootings. 315 00:26:52,839 --> 00:26:56,960 They picked a child from Sandy Hook and they picked a student who was killed 316 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:03,160 at Parkland. They had gotten permission from both of these children's parents to use 317 00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:07,400 the injuries that happened to their kids as part of this article. They basically 318 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,920 showed in real time, when a child gets hit with six rounds from an 319 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,839 AR fifteen, this is what happens. And I actually I want to quote 320 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,960 this thing from the Washington Post really because Washington Post printed a justification for why 321 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,599 they did this, and so I want to quote from them real quick. 322 00:27:26,799 --> 00:27:32,519 The catastrophic damage. The bullets from AR fifteen's cause inside human bodies is rarely 323 00:27:32,559 --> 00:27:38,720 made public in detail. News organizations do not generally publish graphic autopsy or crime 324 00:27:38,759 --> 00:27:44,559 scene photos because the images could be viewed as to humanizing, exploitative, and 325 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:49,240 traumatizing, or could inflict further pain on the families of victims. As a 326 00:27:49,279 --> 00:27:53,319 result, the damaged AR fifteen fire can do to a human body a great 327 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:59,240 deal more than handguns is not widely understood. When we set out to chronicle 328 00:27:59,279 --> 00:28:02,799 the story of the A fifteen in America, we search for ways to illustrate 329 00:28:02,839 --> 00:28:07,880 the effect on bodies in an unflinching but respectful manner. We recognize this presentation 330 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,039 may disturb readers, but we determine the information it contains is crucial to the 331 00:28:11,039 --> 00:28:15,000 public's knowledge, and then it goes on from there. I like the fact 332 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,839 that they did two things here that they acknowledged. We realize what it would 333 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:25,599 do to these families to show these crime scene photos, but we also acknowledge 334 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,119 that we have to make people aware of what happens when you hit the human 335 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:37,440 body with this many high velocity rounds. The story definitely was divisive. I 336 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,400 had a friend who posted it on Facebook, and then she edited her post 337 00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:45,680 to say, actually, you know what, I'm taking this link down because 338 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,680 I don't want people to click on it and be traumatized. But I am 339 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,720 going to tell you why you should read it. So she didn't provide the 340 00:28:52,759 --> 00:28:55,599 link, but she did say here's the information. Here's how you can google 341 00:28:55,599 --> 00:28:59,759 it and find it, but I'm not going to link it because it's very 342 00:28:59,839 --> 00:29:03,119 up like she described how upset she got. It's an interesting conundrum, but 343 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:08,720 ultimately I think Washington Post deciding to produce that piece. It was upsetting, 344 00:29:10,279 --> 00:29:15,119 absolutely, but it was brave and it was necessary too. I think the 345 00:29:15,279 --> 00:29:19,599 article The Blast Effect ran in the Washington Post on March twenty seventh, twenty 346 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:26,599 twenty three. Before people complain that the Washington Post is hidden behind a paywall, 347 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,960 this article is available for free on the Washington Post website. I just 348 00:29:32,039 --> 00:29:36,960 reconfirmed that, and the reason that they did that is because they want people 349 00:29:37,039 --> 00:29:41,079 to see this article. Now you can read the material or not, but 350 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,880 we're going to link to it. The information is available, and it is 351 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,880 an extremely powerful and, as you said, Kristen, disturbing article. But 352 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:56,480 I think this information needs to be out there because for us to go through 353 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,960 one mass shooting after another, particularly now we have this, this whole series 354 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:07,079 of mass shootings at schools and churches and synagogues and mosques and dance schools and 355 00:30:07,559 --> 00:30:14,119 just on and on, and yet we don't ever see much evidence of what 356 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:19,519 actually transpired in these mass shootings. We're just seeing articles and we see pictures 357 00:30:19,559 --> 00:30:26,319 of the first responders and ambulances and the fronts of buildings. We see the 358 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:32,200 Uvalde Elementary School, but we don't see inside, and we certainly don't see 359 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,960 the damage that's been done to the buildings, to the community, and most 360 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,720 importantly to the people. I can already anticipate because we get blowback whenever we 361 00:30:41,799 --> 00:30:47,359 talk about guns and gun violence in mass shootings, and there are people who 362 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:48,519 don't want to hear it. They don't want to hear it from us. 363 00:30:49,319 --> 00:30:56,839 As a teacher who deals every day with the disturbing realities that come with having 364 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,880 guns in the school and with mass shootings being a regular thing, this is 365 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,920 something that is constantly on my mind. And as Bill is the brother of 366 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,759 a murder victim, we've got a lot of credibility wrapped up in this issue. 367 00:31:08,319 --> 00:31:14,759 When we talk about the idea of authentic reporting and reporting what is right. 368 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,119 We talk about ethics and true crime. I think that not only do 369 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,480 we have a right to talk about this, I think we have the responsibility 370 00:31:22,519 --> 00:31:26,079 to talk about it. Is true crime podcasters is Journalist's friend laughed at me 371 00:31:26,119 --> 00:31:29,319 the other day, he was like, you're not a journalist. Okay, 372 00:31:29,359 --> 00:31:33,480 fine, but I am your podcaster. Yeah, I am a podcaster, 373 00:31:33,839 --> 00:31:37,440 and I have a forum. We have a forum, and we have the 374 00:31:37,519 --> 00:31:41,039 right to speak about it, and more importantly, we have the responsibility to 375 00:31:41,079 --> 00:31:45,079 speak about it. So are we going to get blowback for this episode? 376 00:31:45,119 --> 00:31:48,759 Yet? Probably we always do. I think if anybody has the right to 377 00:31:48,799 --> 00:31:52,240 speak out about it, it's people who live it within the true crime space. 378 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:59,200 We have always tried to be very respectful of the fact that our listeners 379 00:31:59,559 --> 00:32:02,319 come from a wide variety of backgrounds. First of all, you're all over 380 00:32:02,359 --> 00:32:07,480 the country, you're all over the world. Politically, it's the gamut from 381 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:13,119 our most conservative friends to our most liberal friends, and lots of stops in 382 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,759 between. I don't even know why I feel I need to say this. 383 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:23,000 Understand, no one's coming for your guns. We're not proposing that anyone take 384 00:32:23,079 --> 00:32:28,680 away your guns. But if we as a country don't figure out how to 385 00:32:28,759 --> 00:32:35,680 do something, we're headed down a road here that is so excruciatingly painful and 386 00:32:35,839 --> 00:32:40,279 divisive. We've got to figure out a way for kids to be able to 387 00:32:40,319 --> 00:32:45,160 go to school safely. And then, as I was mentioning all those other 388 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:50,599 categories, and I'm just scratching the surface, you can't go anywhere now without 389 00:32:50,599 --> 00:32:54,880 being worried that you're going to be gunned down by a crazy person with an 390 00:32:54,920 --> 00:33:00,880 automatic weapon. Let me read from the ap for a moment. The US 391 00:33:00,039 --> 00:33:06,519 is setting a record pace for mass killings in twenty twenty three. We're playing 392 00:33:06,559 --> 00:33:12,839 the horror on a loop roughly once a week. So far this year, 393 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:21,079 the carnage has taken eighty eight lives in seventeen mass killings over one hundred and 394 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:27,799 eleven days, each time the killers wielded firearms. Only two thousand and nine 395 00:33:28,559 --> 00:33:34,559 was marked by as many such tragedies in the same period of time. Eighty 396 00:33:34,559 --> 00:33:39,680 eight lives seventeen mass killings in the first one hundred and eleven days of this 397 00:33:39,839 --> 00:33:46,400 year. This is insane and we can't keep doing this. We've got to 398 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:52,480 figure out something. If people want to say that we're falling off the planet 399 00:33:52,119 --> 00:33:57,319 lefty tree huggers. That actually is true when it comes to me, let 400 00:33:57,319 --> 00:34:01,440 me say you are, aren't you. I'm not embarrassed about that. But 401 00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:06,000 at the same time, we understand a lot of the people that we work 402 00:34:06,039 --> 00:34:09,639 with in law enforcement are coming at this from a much more conservative perspective. 403 00:34:10,519 --> 00:34:15,760 I am respectful, and I know, Kristin you are too, of our 404 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:21,000 friends and family that are coming at this from perhaps a more conservative, perhaps 405 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:27,320 even pro gun point of view. But I don't think it is bomb throwing 406 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,760 in any way, shape or form to say we have to do something together 407 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:38,679 to figure out how to address this issue, and arming teachers isn't even a 408 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:45,159 serious suggestion, so let's not even bother to go there. I do think 409 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:49,599 we need to take steps and work together. And if people want to say 410 00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:53,360 that we're communists or whatever, quite frankly, it probably means you don't know 411 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:59,679 what you're talking about. All we're saying is we think we need to do 412 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:04,159 so thing, and we need to do something now. One of the other 413 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,239 things that also came up when I read this piece, but particularly the New 414 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:14,519 York Times piece about the incredibly brave law enforcement personnel who had to deal with 415 00:35:14,639 --> 00:35:19,760 the carnage at Sandy Hook. We need to be doing more as a country 416 00:35:20,119 --> 00:35:25,639 to address for the first responders and the famili's victims, helping them get past 417 00:35:25,639 --> 00:35:30,880 the trauma that comes with living with something like this. Whether it's responding to 418 00:35:31,519 --> 00:35:37,480 sixteen young children crowded into a bathroom who have been shot to death, or 419 00:35:37,559 --> 00:35:43,000 whether it's a family member who has lost one person in their family to gun 420 00:35:43,079 --> 00:35:45,719 violence. We still, I think, need to be doing better as a 421 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:50,559 country in terms of how can we support you, how can we help you? 422 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,119 This is hard stuff to live through, and Bill, I know you 423 00:35:54,159 --> 00:35:59,360 can attest to that. And I never signed on for this. I am 424 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,000 not in law enforcement. I'm not an investigator. I'm not a cop. 425 00:36:02,039 --> 00:36:07,000 I have tremendous respect for our friends in law enforcement that do these jobs that 426 00:36:07,079 --> 00:36:10,840 many of us wouldn't have the heart to do. Me included, I would 427 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:15,079 not be able to do this kind of gig now, not at all. 428 00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:21,119 And so whether it is all of us maybe learning a little bit more about 429 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,079 trauma response and how to better help people who have been in a traumatic situation, 430 00:36:25,559 --> 00:36:31,159 or whether it's going a step bigger and reforming healthcare in this country so 431 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:37,679 that mental health is not stigmatized, and so that we have more options in 432 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,679 terms of getting therapy or counseling or whatever the heck else it is that you 433 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,079 need once you've had to deal with this. I think that's another step we 434 00:36:45,159 --> 00:36:49,880 need to take as a country. If we're going to deal out this level 435 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,039 of violence, we need to figure out a way to support the people who 436 00:36:53,119 --> 00:36:59,079 have been impacted by it. That goes from me as someone who has been 437 00:36:59,119 --> 00:37:01,960 a victim of crime. I'm you who is the brother of a murder victim. 438 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,519 I can't think of a single person that I know within the true crime 439 00:37:07,559 --> 00:37:12,960 space who either hasn't been in some way, shape or form touched by crime. 440 00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:16,480 I'm not advocating that we all get together and sing Kumbaya around a fire 441 00:37:16,599 --> 00:37:22,679 or anything like that, but I'm also thinking that probably wouldn't hurt for everybody 442 00:37:22,679 --> 00:37:25,679 to sit down and have a therapy session or something like that. Altogether, 443 00:37:27,599 --> 00:37:30,159 it is hard to deal with. It is rough. The thing that nobody 444 00:37:30,199 --> 00:37:32,760 tells you when you deal with this, And again, I know you can 445 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,559 attest to this bill, especially if you don't sign up for it, is 446 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,920 you don't suffer just one time. It's not something that happens and then magically 447 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:45,280 you wake up and you're better. You deal with it over and over again 448 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,559 every single day. Your famili's dealt with it for thirty five years. I 449 00:37:49,599 --> 00:37:54,280 can't even imagine. As we steer this episode to a close, I just 450 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:59,760 want to summarize where I am, and then I'd like to hear Kristin if 451 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,960 you or at the same place or not. We've always committed by the way 452 00:38:04,159 --> 00:38:07,920 that we don't have to agree on every little thing. I like the fact 453 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:13,320 that we have different perspectives. I'll put this out from my point of view. 454 00:38:13,679 --> 00:38:20,599 Your mileage may vary. In thinking about these two issues for today's podcast, 455 00:38:21,199 --> 00:38:27,239 should law enforcement be releasing manifest those of this type? In thinking about 456 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:32,079 it, I think the answer for me is no. Interestingly, the related 457 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:40,360 question about whether or not we should be seeing more evidence of what's happening physically 458 00:38:40,519 --> 00:38:45,280 to our victims in these mass shootings, as long as we can do this 459 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:51,079 in a way that's respectful of victims and victims families, And I know this 460 00:38:51,159 --> 00:38:54,119 is a hard one. I actually think we may want to be thinking about 461 00:38:54,199 --> 00:39:00,199 finding ways to allow people to see the horrific damage it's being done by these 462 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:08,239 weapons of war. So I'm actually leaning towards perhaps allowing some limited public and 463 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:15,280 media viewing of what is actually happening to these victims, because I think people 464 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:20,840 would be shocked, and what I hope would happen is they would be galvanized 465 00:39:21,119 --> 00:39:25,599 into taking active steps to do something about gun violence here in the US. 466 00:39:27,639 --> 00:39:31,440 I'm with you on I'm like ninety five percent of that. I do agree 467 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:37,280 that, Yes, the manifestos, the rantings, the rabians, so whatever 468 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,199 you would to call it for mass shooters, we don't need to be putting 469 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,440 that out there. Are we going to be curious about what was at Audrey 470 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,159 Hillsner Books? Yeah? Absolutely? But do we need to see it? 471 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,519 No, If the FBI says, hey, we don't want to release it 472 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:52,320 because we don't think it's a good idea, and I'll respect your opinion, 473 00:39:52,639 --> 00:39:54,840 we probably don't need to release it. We don't need to see it. 474 00:39:55,159 --> 00:40:00,039 The crime scene photo issue is harder because, as you say, it would 475 00:40:00,039 --> 00:40:02,960 have to be done respectfully. I'm not sure what that would look like. 476 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,199 So I'm always a little hesitant to agree to something without knowing in full how 477 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:12,159 would this look. I'm all about playing in an organization, and I don't 478 00:40:12,199 --> 00:40:14,679 like agreeing to things if I don't know how it's going to work out in 479 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,480 terms of wake up calls. Might be a good one, but the cynical 480 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:22,760 part of me is afraid and does not want to see what would happen if 481 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,039 people looked at that and were like, I'd still rather have my gun. 482 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,679 And I know that there would be people who would react that way, and 483 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,840 I don't know if my bruised little heart can take that. I don't know 484 00:40:34,199 --> 00:40:37,239 that I could deal with that, especially from people that I know and love 485 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,920 who are they like their guns, protective of their guns, and I've told 486 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,760 them I'm not the mean liberal here to take away your gun. You can 487 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,480 have your gun, and I'm fine with that. I don't know how I 488 00:40:46,519 --> 00:40:52,119 would feel if someone that I really truly loved saw those crime scene photos and 489 00:40:52,159 --> 00:40:54,639 said, you know it, that doesn't matter to me, because it matters 490 00:40:54,679 --> 00:40:59,519 to me. I find myself in a really weird place right there. The 491 00:40:59,519 --> 00:41:06,079 appropriate compromise might actually be articles like the Blast Effect in the Washington Post, 492 00:41:06,119 --> 00:41:12,639 which managed to be descriptive and informative without necessarily being horrifically graphic. Because they 493 00:41:12,639 --> 00:41:19,639 were illustrations. Yeah, will recommend the New York Times article and the Washington 494 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:24,480 Post articles as both very much worth our listener's time. I would also add 495 00:41:24,519 --> 00:41:28,519 to that, if you know that this is something that is going to greatly 496 00:41:28,599 --> 00:41:31,880 upset you, then please use your own best discretion and don't put yourself through 497 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:37,280 something that you don't feel like you have the emotional capacity to handle. Right 498 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,800 then, I definitely wish that I had waited a day or two before I 499 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:44,519 looked at the Washington Post article. It was very necessary, it was something 500 00:41:44,519 --> 00:41:47,559 that I needed to see, but I didn't have good dreams that night. 501 00:41:49,119 --> 00:41:52,159 It stayed there in the back of my head and all ended up having that 502 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:57,199 night was gone related nightmares. So know where you're at and where you're coming 503 00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:01,840 from before you embark on these particular articles, and if you need to use 504 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,920 discretion, I would say, err, on the side of using discretion, 505 00:42:06,599 --> 00:42:08,760 I think we should steal it to a close. That's going to wrap it 506 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:13,400 up for ruminations with Bill and Kristen. We've got to come up with a 507 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,679 better title for this, I think. But I feel like this is what 508 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,480 you would get if you were to ask the two of us to coffee. 509 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,519 We would talk about these things. We would do it with a caffeinated beverage 510 00:42:24,559 --> 00:42:28,440 and maybe a scone or two. But this is what you would get if 511 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,599 you had Bill and I for coffee. Hopefully this has at least been a 512 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:37,480 slightly illuminating experience for you. As you were saying that, I thought to 513 00:42:37,519 --> 00:42:45,320 myself we could change it from ruminations to disturbing thoughts with Kris and disturbing conversations 514 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:50,559 with Kristin and Bill disturbing but necessary conversations with Kristin and Bill. We'll figure 515 00:42:50,559 --> 00:42:52,280 out some sort of title for this, but we do hope that you have 516 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,079 enjoyed spending a little bit of time with the two of us today. If 517 00:42:55,119 --> 00:42:58,559 you like what we're doing with the podcast, please do make sure that you 518 00:42:58,639 --> 00:43:01,559 leave us a five star rating and on any of your podcast platforms. Do 519 00:43:01,559 --> 00:43:06,400 you check us out on social media? And we do still have merchandise by 520 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,360 the way over at to Public, Please do feel free to buy some mind 521 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:13,239 Over Murder merchandise. We love seeing you at crime con in various other places. 522 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,679 In that merch that's going to do it for this episode of mind Over 523 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:30,960 Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of 524 00:43:30,079 --> 00:43:37,519 Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin 525 00:43:37,599 --> 00:43:42,480 Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by 526 00:43:42,559 --> 00:43:47,239 Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 527 00:43:47,599 --> 00:43:52,519 You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also 528 00:43:52,599 --> 00:43:57,119 follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you 529 00:43:57,159 --> 00:44:00,719 can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you 530 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,320 for listening to mind Over Murder.