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Math. Follow him on Twitter at FRAML zero nine f r O m A
L zero nine. Follow Nbamath on Twitter at NBA Underscore Math. We are
back to our decade ranking series. We're up to the Los Angeles Clippers.
If you missed it, which there's a fair chance that you did, there's
been a lot going on with the coronavirus pandemic, George Floyd being killed at
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little bit of distraction for people that are looking for that, and we are
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you'll be hearing from them in just a few moments. With all that
now said, Adam, how are you doing. I'm just impressed right now,
Like that's a pretty long spiel for you. To get through with with
no notes and no slip ups or anything except for the fact that my puppy
is going bonkers in the back. That's not a slip up. That's just
it lends authenticity to the podcast, like it's it's in this real world environment.
We're not just sitting in a studio or something. Yes, and puppies
are unpredictable, but you have both puppies and children, so you know that
better than anybody. One of the puppies is currently laying on my feet and
I'm just hoping that there's no barking from her. I'm going my puppies,
aren't I feel weird saying my puppies Thor and Wade their names. They're not
barkers, but like they need to be. I'm about to have to pick
this one up and put him on my lap and hope that he doesn't go
crazy. However, we are here to talk about the ten top ten clippers
of this past decade, as determined by you, me and also you blay
O listeners. If you voted, please remember if thout those forms that are
being tweeted out at NBA Math, NBA Underscore Math, the Lakers will be
next just throwing it out there to the Lakers fans that we have listening.
This was a fun one and if you want to get right into it,
can you take us through how the rankings turned out with number ten. I'm
actually gonna hold off on going with number ten because I wanted to talk about
the Clippers overall level of success throughout the last decade, because I think they're
so often viewed as like this laughing stock franchise or the Little Brother in La
and that hasn't been the case over the last decade. I mean, They've
only missed the playoffs twice in the last ten years. And so I wanted
to start this one off with our once per episode trivia question for you,
and I think I think this is a little bit of an easier one than
some of the ones we've had. But can you name the five teams with
the most wins dating back to the twenty ten eleven season. Okay, I'm
gonna say the Mavericks. The Mavericks are not damn all right, all right,
We're off to good. The Spurs gotta be up there. Spurs are
number one. Okay, I'm going to assume that the Clippers are on there.
Clippers are fifth, Miami. Miami is sixth. Dallas was fifteenth.
By the way, Yeah, I think I'm just I'm probably assuming over the
past twenty years. They've actually had some bad seasons over the past decades.
I don't know why I named them. Who do I have? I got
the Spurs and the Clippers are The Lakers can't be on there, right they
had too many down years towards the end. Yeah, they're down at eighteen.
They're but they're below the Hawks. I'm gonna say Golden State just because
they had a few monster seasons. They're third. Houston. Houston is fourth.
I'm not gonna get this fifth one running through all the teams in my
head right now. So the next team, I say that has to be
my last guest by default, or actually I feel like I might have to
Boston. Nope, Indiana. Boston is seventh, Indiana is ninth, and
Oklahoma City is second. Wow. Yeah, I mean if you think about
it like just that, that spans the Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, James
Harden years and then they haven't been bad. No, I think what gets
me turned around? If so, you you trade James Harden in twenty and
twelve, and they looked they were still really good afterwards, but like you're
thinking about all the sort of different iterations and revolutions that they've had over the
past decade. Now, they were the ones that slip my mind. I
probably wouldn't even have gone to them after the last two teams that they named.
I was trying to be too trendy by naming the Pacers just because they're
like this bastion of consistency, but I respect it. Are you now willing
to take us to the numbers? That was one of your kinder trivia questions.
I don't feel bad for missing it, but it was also like not
super hard. I know you've been working alive and a little tired right now,
so I was I was trying to take it easy on you to some
extent. Would you've got it live? Absolutely? Without question? That's a
no. I mean I was looking at the list, so I definitely would
have. I meant, if I was if the roles were reversed, would
there have been a team that you missed? I think it would have been
okay? See as well, No, I think I would have gotten okay.
See, I don't think that I would have gotten. I'm not sure
I would have gotten in Houston because I think I forget how long Harden has
been there sometimes fair enough, but anyway, this is about the Clippers who
were fifth and wins over the last decade, and there was a lot of
a lot of interesting votes throughout this one. It seemed like there were essentially
thirteen candidates for the top ten spots, so we actually had a three way
tie for eleventh place between Paul George, Matt Barnes, and Tobias Harris.
Both you and I had Tobias Harris on there. I was the only one
with Matt Barnes. The fans were the only one with Paul George. I
see an argument for all three of those, but it it felt like there
was a seven player tier where they were going to be guaranteed inclusions and then
who the hell knew after that. Paul George was tough for me, just
because he's missed so much of this year. And I know it's not like
Kwaine Leonard has played in so many more games than Paul George, but I
was a little bit. I kind of expected him to be right around there,
but he wasn't like Kwai Leonard is who I struggled like to place,
even though he's only played nine more games than Paul George, so that was
that might be the only qualm is like it's their first season. But also
Paul George is really ridiculously good, and I think him going to the Clippers
were forcing his way to the Clippers at all, just like Kawai signing with
the Clippers, right, that has to be part of it too, just
because it says something about the Clippers themselves. Agreed. We did have Danilo
Gallinari, who was our tenth place finisher. He did not appear on the
fans ballot. He did not appear in my top ten top ten, though
I did give serious thought to including him. He was up at eighth for
you. And as is the case with all the players in this range,
like I get it, I get all of those different placements. Gallow only
played eighty nine games in LA just during the twenty seventeen eighteen season where he
was mostly injured and then the twenty eighteen nineteen season where he was phenomenal and
just kind of like blossomed into that devastating offensive weapon that he's become later in
his career. Was there any consideration to not having him there just because of
the lack of bairness that he's had. We'll get to that term early in
this episode. Yeah, there was. It's for both he and Tobias Harris.
For me, I had spoiler Dewis Harris was ten, gallow was nine.
For me, it was were you going to pull one of them for
a KWHI Leonard or Paul George. I did think about Matt Barnes briefly as
well, but Gallows two eighteen, two thosand nineteen season did it for me.
Debias Harris was the one who was generating all the hype. It felt
like there before he was traded, but it was Gallo who was their best
player up until that point for me, and even felt like, you know,
Mantras, Harrold and Lou Williams were getting a little bit more shy than
he did. I said this on the Nuggets podcast with him, and I'll
say it again. He really just blurs the line between fringe star and then
this compliment because he can be so good at shooting off the catch and his
offense is very plugin player, but he can also really get you buckets from
these Square one opportunities where he puts his head down, gets into the lane,
he can hit these difficult fadeaways. He draws a ton of fouls,
and so he's been one of the more for his entire career understated offensive hubs.
And I won't say that he would have been an All Star had he
been healthier throughout his career, but I think he would be more fondly or
commonly recognized if he didn't deal with so many injuries. You know, some
with the Clippers, but also a lot with the Nuggets and even a little
bit with the Knicks as well. It feels like he's moving into that territory
where we talk about him as one of the all time best players who hasn't
made an All Star team. Right, He's not one of the first names
that comes to mind there. I think Mike Conley probably is, But like
he's getting there just what he's been able to do as he moves into his
thirties on the offensive end, and I don't think we should just totally overlook
the defensive ability that he brings to mostly through the versatility and the plug in
plainists like he I think earlier in his career, those New York days.
In those early Denver days, before his ACL injury, he was a pretty
underrated defender with some shutdown on ball abilities. He knew what he was doing
off the ball. But now it seems like he has the size to body
up against some bigger front court players, and he has the lateral quickness to
match up on the perimeter. He's not a great defender, but he's not
like this glaring liability that you might expect from a guy who's largely an offensive
weapon. No, and I think, look, he's not when you look
at his size, because he's a true six ten. They've adjusted the heights
and they still list him at six ten. He's not this overwhelming rebounder.
But for his position, now, you know, if you're going to have
someone who can get you a seventeen eighteen defensive rebounding rate, that's fine.
And I totally agree with you. For earlier in his career he could he
could guard two zen threes, you know, but really, before, like
you said that, that ACL injury and so never just a good defender,
which is one of those guys where it's he certainly not could almost be comparable
to the way Bollyon Vogdanovitch was in Indiana because Indiana just turns wing and wings
into too defensive gold. This might be the second consecutive podcast in which I've
actually mentioned that, but that's neither here nor there. What I'm actually interested
to see is whether he has an opportunity to make a third team's top ten
cut because he's gonna have just the one season in Oklahoma City. But he's
been so good, and I know Oklahoma City has been also been really good,
but it's not like they have like after their tippy top talent. I
feel like there's this wide open field and so they do have a few,
I would say more than a few really big names, because you have Abaka.
Harden's probably gonna make it there, Kevin Urrett, Russell Westbrook, Paul
George. But like things can be a little bit open for Perkins. You
know, Steven Adams, but that's actually really Kendrick Perkins taught Oklahoma City out
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experts. But anyway, I wanted to move on from from tenth, who
was, you know, sort of an underrated defender, to another mediocre average
defender, and that's Kawhi Leonard. We actually both did not have him in
our top ten, which I think is purely a function of the lack of
minutes and lack of games played only fifty one. The fans did have him
all the way up at fifth, and as an interesting housekeeping note, I
think he's the first player, and this is our thirteenth one of these,
I believe that he's the first player who has appeared in every single spot on
the ballot, getting everything from a first place vote to an unranked vote,
which is interesting and I think fitting for a guy who has been phenomenal and
has continued to grow into a primary facilitator into this go to scorer who can
light it up from every level but has only played those fifty one games.
Between injuries and load management. He was one of the toughest players to rank
in any of these. He will be someone who makes three different top tens
because he's going on Toronto and San Antonio. So look, Kawi Leonard is
just amazing. And you know, aside from I know that it's come like
a Yannis attempt to Kombo versus Lebron James debate for the best player in the
league, He's still there, and I'm not I'm going to be more conservative
when it comes to picking someone over yannest than than I think a lot of
other people would. But I think there's probably still a case. Lebron James
has been so good this year, I would probably have Kai Landers the third
best player in the league. But he's right there, Like it's just the
gap between him and Lebron if there is one anymore, even the gap between
his and honest, it's it's right there. And what he's been really been
able to do on offense has been transformative because we've been I don't know if
I want to say we've been waiting on pins and needles, but sort of
the next or the last front tier for him was can he be this primary
playmaker type. I'm not talking James Harden level, but but Kevin Durant level,
like or a little bit above that. And this year he's done that
day at the beginning of the year, when Paul George was out, when
they were dealing with some other injuries, he was just running pick and roll
after pick and roll, dishing a ton of assists and he still had a
career high five point six for thirty six minutes four his career and the offense
just you know, if you had any doubt that he could be this offensive
hub on his own, it's gone now. I mean it should have been
eradicated before he left San Antonio and then definitely with Toronto. But the Clippers
are annihilating opponents. I think when I was writing about this a few weeks
ago, their offensive rating is close to one seventeen. When Leonard plays without
Paul George, n Lou Williams and so driving an entire offense as the primary
facilitator was Leonard's final frontier and now he's conquered it. It's just it's amazing
and looking at this year specifically because that's really the only one that matters as
it pertains to the Clippers. I know he's a little bit more selective in
how he uses his defensive motor, but it felt like sort of after that
game they lost to the Celtics and overtime I think where Jason Tatum out played
him a little bit, Kawhi Leonard just decided that he was going to go
all out, just go ham on defense and watching him defend it should count
as a form of cardio because it's that exhausting. Well, that's good news
for my exercise habits. I just put in ninety minutes of watching by Leonard
today. I'm exhausted on calories. I burned. But that's perfect. I
think the only part of that that I want to push back on is that
it is close between the Jannis Lebron tier and Kauai. I think it depends
on how you frame the conversation, like if we're talking about who you want
to have for one game or one playoff series. I think that's fair if
we're talking about who you want to have over the course of the season,
Like availability is a skill. Sure there's some bad luck involved in injuries,
but like I do think that if you frame the debate that way, that
he is still a tier below and that there is a fairly sizeable gap,
just because if you look at his history, I mean, we have a
nine game season in twenty seventeen eighteen and sixty games the next year and fifty
one this current season, and part of that is by design, but that
design has been necessary, and we saw it last year during Roo's run to
a championship, Like he still was limping at times, and even with that
extreme load management strategy, it almost didn't work. Like I know, they
won the title, but he was still hobbled during points in that And I
do think that matters if we're talking about the best player in the world conversation.
That's totally fair, and it's probably why I wouldn't have him all that
close to Janni's attend to Kopo, because even with Lebron, while his availability
is there, like just the possession by possession engagement this season has been incredible
relative to what we've seen in years past from him recently, but Jannes's attend
the Kopo takes every single possession personally. It feels like with Leonard, though,
I do think there's a case that if you need to win one playoff
game, there's not another player in the NBA you'd rather have. I'll listen
to arguments for Lebron, I listen to them for Steph, maybe Kevin Durant
at his peak, you know, following his injury gets a little tough.
Janice could potentially be there as well. So that's where his argument I think
receives the biggest boost. I would agree with that, and I would probably
put him above Jannis in that conversation because I think that Yannis is schemable to
some extent, as we've seen with those pack the paint defenses, where they're
just going to force his teammates to beat him. It's kind of like peaked
Dwight Howard, where like he was dominant. And I'm not trying to compare
Dwight to Jannis here, just like in terms of the scheme ability, right
right, I mean in terms of the unassisted dunks, but nothing beyond that.
But we saw that in the twenty ten and twenty eleven playoffs, where
as dominant as he was, teams could make a conscious decision whether they wanted
to shut down the perimeter options or throw extra bodies at him. And I
don't think that you have that same luxury with guys like with Kawai and with
Kevin Durant and with Lebron. You take us to the number eight spots since
it says we spend enough time at Quaird. Oh. Actually, the last
thing here. If we were to just do this at the end of the
sea like the season, which would basically be the playoffs, there's eight regular
season games left, Quai, I'll probably play in one point five of those
or something. I'm kidding, Are you also fair? But well, they
don't have number two lockdown, so maybe not. But at the same time,
they're not going to care about there's no such thing as home court advantage
anyway. They they're probably the one team that I believe would say they don't
care about their matchup. We're getting too far into the weeds there, though.
If we did record this after the playoffs, there's probably a chance,
depending on what happens with the Clippers this season, that he could end up
like yeah, yeah, or like four, Like there's really I think those
top five are like fairly locked down just through a title, the only ones
you think that you have to put him behind. We're basically going to have
this argument when we get to Toronto. Fair enough, fair enough, all
right, but can you can you carry us on to number eight? Yeah,
so we'll go from one defensive stalwart to another with Jamal Crawford, who
ruthless today. He was seventh from the fans, he was eighth for me,
and he was ninth for you. Tough player to evaluate, especially later
in his career, just because he basically like we don't need to talk about
his defense because it doesn't exist. And then his offensive shooting figures like they're
usually so low that he doesn't show up well in advanced metrics, that the
team might be slightly worse with him off the court. But at the same
time, like we're all giving some love to him here by having him in
the top ten. And I think it's largely because he fills a difficult role,
Like I think we have to acknowledge that inefficiency is kind of part and
parcel with that gunner off the bench role that he's excelled in throughout his career.
I don't think I would say that he was ever a star with the
Clippers in the last decade. I mean, he averaged eighteen point six points
per game in twenty thirteen fourteen, but even then, like it came on
lackluster shooting numbers. So he was another one who is kind of difficult for
me to place. And I know I say that about so many players,
but it's because these are tough conversations. Look, there's there's the theirness,
which sounds so so weird to say, because he's in fourth in total minutes
played for the team. The other thing is he's seventh in value over replacement
player, and I know that's gonna be something that really favors guys who can
score. But scoring, if anyone hasn't noticed, is a pretty important skill.
Never been the most efficient score. But he takes so many difficult shots
that if you have him for a long period of time between twenty thirteen seventeen
in this case, shooting forty five point five percent on two's and thirty five
point four percent on threes, it's almost just a little bit more valuable than
someone who's slightly more efficient but doesn't take as difficult shots, and to just
come off the bench and to be able to provide you with that from scratch
creation, it's a fairly big deal and he had some huge games for them.
He's just one of those guys where it felt like an event when he
would catch fire. And so there's certainly when you look at the advanced metrics,
they're not all gonna love him some of the on and off numbers as
well. But he won whether whether or not you thought he should have,
he did win two six Men of the Year awards with the Clippers and three
overall. Also, just a really good teammate if you talk to anyone around
the NBA. One of the best locker room guys right And to that point,
it wasn't with the Clippers this year, that year, but he won
Teammate of the Year in twenty seventeen, twenty and eighteen. So I do
think that matters because you were dealing with When you look at those Lob City
era Clippers teams, it felt like there was I don't want to say a
lack of leadership or accountability, because you did have Chris Paul as a leader,
even if he grates on people, But there did seem like a lot
of internal division, if not strife, and I would argue that having Jamal
Crawford there probably helped alleviate it at least a little bit, if not a
ton. And so I really grappled with could I put him lower? I
was thinking about being a little bit bold and saying, you know, if
we're being honest, like Kauai might have had an impact higher than Jamal Crawford
right now. And I ended up leaving Quaie off. But what about to
buy as Harrison gallanari, He's right where he belongs, and if you want
to put him at number seven, maybe I think there's a strong case there
and I wouldn't argue against it. Yeah, I think Jamal Crawford's current situation
is kind of like a good way to summarize the divide here where he doesn't
have a job right now, even though he hasn't retired, and that's indicative
of general managers not necessarily trusting what he brings right now at this stage of
his career, and yet every player wants him to have a role. Yeah,
how many how many guys have we seen speak up about how Jamal Crawford
should be signed at this point. And I think that's partially because you know,
I forget who I saw that said this the first time, and I
wish I could give them credit for it, But I think it's it's partially
that he's mastered skills that are difficult to master, and that players spend a
lot of time trying to master to the point that they might supersede more important
things that aren't necessarily worked on as much, and it creates this divide between
how people who play and people who evaluate and try to build teams are viewing
him. Yeah, I think that's a that's a great point. And look,
I don't know that you could say he would significantly help a team,
but the aesthetics of his game are ageless, Like you just looked at the
way he moves. It just has a ton of dribbling skills, the four
point plays. And if anyone listening does remember, I want to say it
might have been Chris Towers from CBS Sports maybe who who talked about like the
mastery of a difficult skill. If anyone does know whose theory that was,
let us know so we can give them credit for that. I would say
the one thing that might hurt him with regard to maybe his ranking with the
Clippers. But why's not in the NBA right now is what he does where
we've kind of seen it with how Lou Williams and like the stuff that he
pulls when he's trying to draw fouts doesn't translate to the playoffs. Crawford's type
of shot selection, it just hasn't really fared well in the playoffs. His
efficient, his efficiency has traditionally fallen off a cliff. Maybe I'm thinking too
much into that, but that's certainly that's a great point, like that could
that certainly holds him back here for me, and maybe that's why he's not
in the NBA right now. But look, if you're going to give me
someone in there, you know he's with Phoenix last year, age thirty eight,
doesn't become a problem. Like he's probably a centralizing force within that locker
room and you can count on him. I don't care how much they milked,
I don't care how meeting this the game was. But he can just
go out there and score like eighty points if you wanted him to. That's
just that's an accomplishment. Not again, not relev not relevant, necessarily to
this discussion, although that kind of encapsulates what he was to the Clippers is
just like he never he was never necessarily better than you expected him to be,
but he was never less than what you were looking for. Right.
But we I believe there is no number seven, or there is no number
seven. The number seven. Yeah, we do have a tie number six.
It's a very fitting tie because I think these players are so heavily associated
with one another, and it's Montrese, Harold, and Patrick Beverly. So
Beverly came in at sixth place for both you and I. The fans had
him down at number ten, and then the fans had had Harold at eight,
and both of us had him at number seven. That surprised me.
I really thought that the way Beverly plays, the grittiness, the intensity,
the desire to milk every ounce of basketball talent on every single possession, the
willingness to frustrate and upset opponents see Westbrook Russell, would have put him higher
in the fan vote. I thought he was for sure one of those players
where if you have been rooting for him, you would definitely have him higher
than the non Clippers fans who are currently talking so where would you have put
him? Oh, I mean I think we had him in the right spot
at sixth. Okay, I'm just I'm surprised that we had him higher than
the fans did. Oh and also that he was below Harold in the fan
vote. I mean, like, I guess Harold is another like hustle guy
who is always playing hard and is going to endear himself to fan bases.
But that's like, that's Beverly's thing. If there's anything that people want to
light me up for, probably gonna be my takes on Montrez Harold. But
yeah, with Beverly, I was I kind of consider putting him higher.
Just the sample size wasn't large enough to be like, hey, let's let's
put him above Lou Williams, or let's put him above JJ Reddick would have
been the name that I gravitated toward the most. And Lou Williams is just
such a huge part of what the Clippers have done offensively since he's arrived there.
But with Beverly, like he is, the fact that he's made a
living playing a ball dominant position by being anything but is absolutely incredible to me.
You can still trust him to run some pick and roll, but you'll
probably wish that maybe turn the ball over a little bit less. Could he
do a little bit more off the dribble, but he pulls out like some
floaters every now and again. But the fact that he's willing to just remain
off the ball, hit a bunch of catch and shoot threes and then just
really exhaust himself on defense, and there are look some of part of his
reputation might be more myth than fact. I would say that guys like Mark
is Smart would be a good example here are just definitively better on defense than
Patrick Beverly is, particularly now. But he is someone that you can say,
hey, go guard Kevin Durant, and it's not necessarily gonna work,
but it's gonna look like maybe it's working a little bit, just because he
defends so exhaustively. And so to have this guy who's essentially three and D
at the point guard position, who on any given night can make it so
that your point guard defense isn't pointless, which is how many view point guard
defense. It's looking at how many talented players are at that position. You're
gonna get, you know, twenty points and six assists, like you're giving
that up right off the bat to a lot of these guys, and that's
just absolutely huge, And so yeah, I definitely agree with you that it
is a little bit surprising, if not really surprising, that we were higher
on him than the fans actually were. But that just might say more about
how much Clippers fans valued one immediacy. Also Kawhi Leonard a little bit obviously
so, but Patrick Beverly's just there are a handful of non stars that I
think every team, all thirty teams would love to have on their roster,
and he, for me, is one of them. Yeah, And as
Ramontrez, he was a difficult one to evaluate, if only because of his
role and because of how the Clippers have maximized him within that role. He
doesn't play against starters. He plays against second units and he destroys them.
And it's difficult to know how that would translate to playing against the best front
court defenders and trying to defend the best front court scorers. But I think
there's a case to be made that he's been as good within his role as
anybody over the last two years. I mean, if you minimum fifty games
played, he's twenty seventh in points per thirty six minutes over the last two
seasons combined. That puts him just ahead of Danilo Gallinari. It puts him
ahead of Nikolai Yokich and Chris Middleton and Clay Thompson and Brandon Ingram and Demardurozen
and CJ McCollum. Like, he's been really effective, and he's done all
that while shooting almost sixty percent from the field. Granted, because all of
his shots are right around the basket, but it's also a skill to be
able to generate those looks and capitalize on them so efficiently. I'll go ahead,
sorry, no, no, feel free to cut me off there.
I was just gonna say, and I don't know where I was going,
So I think you hit it right on the head. Is so that he's
been as good as anyone within his role, and even scoring wise, he
does more on offense than you actually think, Like this isn't just someone who's
feasting off of pick and rolls like the Clippers have posted him up. He
can actually attack. He has a little bit of a floor game, and
he doesn't have really range away from the rim. But to be able to
get to the rim with the blond your hands. That's another skill that's valued.
And then this season, specifically, Janis and Yoki are the only other
players averaging more than eighteen points per game while shooting better than fifty nine percent
on twos. Now, Harold's scoring opportunities are more elementary than theirs, but
that's still pretty darn impressive. And I figures you already mentioned there's an endless
hustle to his game where he's not going to out talent a lot of people,
but he's going out work pretty much. It's contagious. It's like he's
he seems like one of those players where his hustle bleeds into everyone else.
But it feels like there's a notable, visible uptick in hustle with everyone who's
on the floor around him. And the fact that his output has held per
minute as his role is increased is indicative of not only how good he is,
but just also how much energy he's willing to put into every single second
that he's on the court. Now he knows one gear, it's lightspeed.
Here's what I question about Harold's value is how indispensable is he actually to the
Clippers? And the bigger question to me would be is he someone who can
translate well to another team. And I'm only asking this because he's a free
agent this summer, and I'm gonna say, we're gonna get some answers to
this pretty soon, right And I don't know, maybe he doesn't leave the
Clippers, but it'll still be indicative in the offers that are rumored to be
received from other teams. And I just I don't know, like he does
still need and probably an elite to semi elite playmaker around him to really capitalize
on his offense. And there just aren't going to be as many teams that
can say, hey, we're gonna throw this six foot seven inch guy at
center and that they're gonna be able to make it work because he's not this
you know, he could be okay around the rim, but he's not your
primary backline defender guy. He's not going to rampage on the glass, and
so that that's a limitation. But you also really can't give him minutes at
the four anymore because he doesn't have that range. You would need like the
perfect five around him, like a Marcus Morris Harol scenario where Harold still going
to be the center in that situation because he's the guy that's not playing on
the perimeter, and so that's just what I'm curious about. It doesn't hold
him back here, because again, he's done so much for the Clippers,
but it's always something I've wondered about him, and I do think to some
extent maybe that's, you know, tainted my view of him. I feel
like taint is too cruel of a word, but it just made me as
he is, he exused, this endless hustle. I am endlessly curious about
what his actual value is relative to the rest of the league outside this Clippers
bubble. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I almost don't want to
find out because I so enjoy him in this role and I hope it's something
he gets to continue doing rather than trying to stretch himself too much, and
maybe we start to see some of those cracks shine through a bit more prominently.
He's just one of those guys who's so fun to watch and so easy
to root for that I almost don't want that to happen, and I want
it. If he wants that, then go for it. Yeah, And
look, the Knicks have cap space and love bigs Charlotte could use him out
on the front line. Maybe those are the teams if he gets paid,
good for him. And I love watching him. He's another guy where it
feels like I just ran a marathon because I watched him play basketball, which
doesn't say much about me, obviously, but I enjoyed watching him. It's
just that's just a question that springs to mind. Maybe this isn't the form
for it, but I needed to voice it in some way. Oh,
I get it. I'm just I'm looking forward to the next time I get
to be asked like, oh, did you exercise today? Yeah, I
watched the Clippers, Patrick's, Beverly and Harold on the court at the same
time. My heart barely took it. We have a number five. We
do have a bit of a tear jump up to what was basically the clear
cut top five, and checking in at fifth was JJ Reddick. He was
sixth, just below Kawhi Leonard from the fan vote, but you and I
both had him at fifth. We're unanimous from this point forward. I think
it's the exact right place for him. Never a star, always an immensely
valuable role player, just one of the best off ball shooting threats we've ever
seen and I don't think it's a fluke that this might be the first year
of his career hasn't made the playoffs. You know, he Yes, he's
always been on good teams. Yes he's been surrounded by stars, but he
also really aids the winning cause just with all of the little things that he
does. I mean, I don't think that his ability to facilitate in a
pinch gets the credit that it deserves. I don't think that. I don't
think that his ability to take a couple dribbles and shoot a jumper gets the
credit that it deserves. He's been more than that catch and shoot guy,
and he's been more than that for a while. And that really started to
become clear in Los Angeles. Maybe it's because he left before. Maybe it's
because he left when Chris Paul didn't, you know, Blake Griffin and DJ
were still with the Clippers. Or maybe it's because he's now he's on his
second team since then, but it feels like forever ago that he was actually
on the Clippers. And I don't want to use what he did with the
Sixers as a basis for rating him, but I think what he did as
a facilitator and as even someone who was hitting pull up threes as opposed to
just more spot up opportunities or looks off motion, it proves that what he
didn't with the Clippers was that much more valuable because he was doing those things
just in smaller doses, which is arguably harder because you're out of rhythm a
little bit more. And so one of the most valuable offensive non stars in
the league, especially during his without question with the Clippers, shot forty four
percent on a ton on a ton of threes. Average five point eight per
game with the Clipper is comfortably over seven p thirty six minutes. I believe
a note like and the fact that he could still do that didn't play as
much this year, but like, he wasn't exactly young during his time with
the Clippers either, and so that you could always count on him for these
astronomical offensive numbers. I do wonder, now this is maybe this is an
unfair question. If you had given JJ Reddick some more of the responsibility that
was bestowed upon Jamal Crawford offensively, are the Clippers better off at all during
this time? I don't think so. I think that he filled the exact
right role and it's one of the I think we see that in the on
off numbers over those four plus seasons eleven point five points per one hundred possessions
better with Reddick on the court. And granted a lot of that is because
that time largely overlapped with Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, and DeAndre Jordan,
but without him drawing defensive attention away. Because talk about gravitational pull from a
non star, that number isn't going to be as high. I mean,
he made life so much easier for everyone else with his with his presence,
I don't think if you start giving him more touches, you start giving him
more shots, that it changes for the better. Because he was as good
a shooter and scorer as he was. I think you can make an argument
that he was even more valuable on the possessions where he didn't touch the ball,
sort of like the Steph gravity impact, but obviously at depth level.
Yeah, I mean, like Chris Paul is going to get whatever shot Chris
Paul wants whenever Chris Paul wants it, but just making those marginally easier over
the course of a season has an immense impact, and I think that's what
Reddick did more than anything else if you ask him to lead those second units
and stuff like, I don't think you're going to see a positive change.
I guess I'm just looking at what he sort of accomplished in Philly amid still
playing with stars but clumpy spacing a sort of proof that maybe he could have
done more. But I also think what you're saying hits the right notes too.
I will say, even though it was basically in small volume, he
was in the seventieth percentile or better as a pick and roll ball handler every
single season he was with the Clippers, which is just look, even if
that's in small doses where it accounts for between you know, seven and ten
percent of his offensive possessions, five and ten percent, whatever it ends up
being there, there's just value there. So just a quintessential offensive role player.
Agreed, So from this point far in the rankings, Yeah, from
this point forward, we actually have unanimity across the board. So the fans,
you and I all agreed. So I'll just say that in fourth place
we had Lou Williams. Don't you feel good when we agree with the fans
And it's not like a number one spot where it's a concessive number one.
It feels nice. It feels nice. I still think that Lou Williams should
have gotten some All Star love last year. I'm continuously impressed by the importance
of the role that he fills for the Clippers, and as his ability to
take so many big possessions and get off so many tough shots and generate good
looks for his teammates, whether he's kicking the ball back out off a drive,
whether he's running a pick and roll, and it seems like he never
makes a mistake, Like it doesn't feel like he's capable of taking a bad
shot because he's such a good, tough shot maker. It doesn't ever feel
like he turns the ball over. He never loses his handle, he doesn't
make ill advised passes. It's like he's just this, this perfect bench weapon.
I feel like twenty years from now, we're gonna be looking back at
Lou Williams as one of the all time great off the bench scorers, like
a Vinnie Johnson microwave guy. Wow, that's yeah, there's He definitely should
have gotten All Star love last season. Like it's just is that too hot?
Do we need the hot? Take? Sound? There or is that
is that more tepid. I'm not quite sure. It's just tough because when
you look at the who he's up against in the Western Conference, like that's
just who is he knocking off that year. So that's where the argument was.
But to get more love, just more consideration where it felt like he
probably deserved equal consideration compared to what Tobias Harris or Danilo Gallinari was getting.
And if you just look, I know he's doing this off the bench since
he arrived with the Clippers, But listen to the names of all the players
who over the past three seasons including this one, or averaging at least twenty
points six assists and shooting thirty six percent from three James Harden, Damian Lillard,
Kemba Walker, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Durant, Bradley Beale, Steph and
lou Will. That is it's absurd. Yeah, that's the word I was
going to gravitate towards like that's I was trying to weed out some profanity I
was going to slip out of my mouth. But we've had some complaints about
my profanity as of late, so I don't mean any any harm by it.
I'll try to make it my profanity will be more more selective. I'll
be more deliberate about it as opposed to just letting it roll off and not
realizing it. I like, that's mind melting to me again. I know
he's doing it off the bench. I also really don't care when you look
at how much they leaned on him in crunch time situations last year. He
is as close to stardom as you can get without actually being a star.
Probably, And I said, that's like not as hot. After I say
probably, He's absolutely in that tier where it's now. He's not a star,
but he can actually shoulder the burden of one for pretty long stretches.
It's not you're not going to build a team around him. But like,
I don't know if we underrate him because or is he not viewed as a
consensus I would say top fifty player, and I might even be guilty of
this or top forty player because he's he's not good defensively. Let's just get
that out of the way. He's terrible defensively, and then lou Williams plays
defense exactly, so he just if they should just have him cherry pick in
certain occasions, but then that takes the ball out of his hands though in
the backcourt a little bit sometimes, So maybe he don't want to do that
anyway though, And maybe it's because he hasn't had all of the most convincing
playoff campaigns at the same time, Like those numbers just don't lie. And
now we're at a point where, yeah, even this season his production has
dropped off a little bit, but he's still given you eighteen point seven points
five point seven assists and shooting thirty six point three percent from deep, where
it's like, yeah, he could probably shoot a higher percentage on his twos,
but the quality of the twos he's taking isn't very high, so maybe
you should be happy he hits more than forty four percent of them. Like
this guy's just been clockwork. It's not even really just the past three seasons.
He was big when he was you know, maybe not so much even
just with the Lakers. I'll even say that, like we don't remember the
Lakers in Houston days as as finally or even Toronto, but just look at
his numbers, like just clockwork. He gets buckets, and these past three
seasons with the Los Angeles Clippers have been I would argue, without a doubt,
the best of his career, and they've come age thirty one, age
thirty two, age thirty three, which is wild. So while you're on
your soapbox, I was looking up something because I was curious, and these
are a soapbox. I didn't think that that was something that would ever be
These are shamelessly generated parameters because we're only looking at nineteen eighty one through the
present, because that's as far back as we have games started data on Basketball
Reference for every single player. I'm only looking at players who have not started
more than one hundred twenty games in their careers. Lee Williams is at one
eighteen, So, like again, shamelessly generated, I will I will not
deny that, But do you think you can name any of the other top
ten career scorers during that time frame with fewer than one hundred and twenty games
started. I don't think I would have gotten JJ Barea, okay, and
maybe no one else. But that means that there's got to be like this
huge drop off between the actual scoring numbers. Yeah, yeah, so Tracy
Murray fifty nine hundred, Michael Cooper sixty two hundred, Gerald Green sixty four
hundred, Nate Robinson sixty eight hundred, Ron Anderson seven thousand, Chris Gatling
seventy two hundred, JJ Barreta seventy four hundred, Leandro Barbosa nine thousand,
Del Curry twelve thousand, six hundred, seventy, Lou Williams fourteen thousand,
four hundred, twenty four. Del Cary's actually closer than I thought. That's
someone would have agreed, Yeah, agreed, but still but still like I
don't I don't know. I feel validated in my uninformed claim that he's going
to go down as one of the best bench scorers ever. And with you
and you, you've found arbitrary cutoffs to prove it. I'm proud of you,
absolutely, thank you, shameless. That's the hardwood nos way right there.
H Can you take us two? Number three? I can. It's
DeAndre Jordan, which I don't think is going to surprise anybody, because you
know, the Big three Lob City era defined this decade for the Clippers.
Regardless of what Kawhi Leonard does this year, I think even if they win
a title, this is still the decade of the Lobs City Clippers because they
brought the franchise back to relevance. They made the franchise fun to follow,
fun to watch. They were there for so long. I mean, they're
pretty clearly the top three and minutes played, and DeAndre Jordan, despite having
more longevity than any of the other two members of said big three, was
clearly the third wheel. So this was as much of a fore gone conclusion
as maybe any player in a non number one spot in any of these rankings.
I did briefly consider putting Lou Williams over him, just because even in
this decade, I don't know that this was necessarily his fault when you look
at just the coaching decisions during the time twenty two eleven, two thousand twelve,
just didn't play a ton of minutes, and then all of a sudden
in two thirty fourteen, he's at thirty five minutes a game. Like that's
because stoc Rivers was convinced that he was a defensive Player of the Year candidate.
Remember, probably always been overrated defensively, but then we got to a
point where he was underrated defensively because people didn't realize that he could move on
defense as well. So but anyway, I realized that that would have been
way too egregious. The theirness factor alone, just mister iron Man himself during
his time with the Clippers. And look, there are always players who might
want more in their role where they don't just want to be this lob catching
rim runner. And he was okay with that, and he played his role
to a t. It worked for the Clippers and looked there were parts of
his game that were well, I'll say at least one part of his game
that he really worked on was just his passing. He's become later in his
career more so just a more decisive, a more intelligible pass where he can
make quicker decisions, throw a little bit on the move, throw some of
my stand still passes too, which I would argue for someone in his position
can actually be a little bit harder, because when you're rolling towards the rim,
you can get used to kind of sprang the ball out, you know,
to the corners or around the witch's nipple and or even just behind you.
And the fact that he's been this again, it's probably more so later
in his career that last season with the Clippers specifically, you can that's where
it really felt like there was this this uptick. But that's you know,
this isn't You can look at his assists numbers, and I think at least
up until the final year with the Clippers, be like, well, you
know, Hassan white side over here. It just it was never like that
with him. Did you say witches nipple? Why? Why have I never
heard this term? I learned it at a basketball camp years and years ago,
and I it's just stuck with me, like that's what they called.
Stop listening after everything else, about everything else, After you said that,
I apologize and hope it's not actually uh politically incorrect at this point, but
that's like, that's what it was called. When I was at this,
it was what is what is it? It's the so it's it's not an
above the break, it's not the corner. It's like that area in between.
Okay, but yeah, the arc, like they call that the witch
is nipple. H Well, I say, ye, I learned something today
that basketball camp is what it called. I never googled it to see if
it was a thing. Again, I'm talking about I'm scared to google it.
It was at a basketball camp I tended like for three or four years
in a row when I was like twelve, and that they always called it.
That always stuck with me. I was, by the way, the
foul shooting champion one year of that basketball camp. I just like to I'm
impressed. I'm impressed probably some like lefty hooks because that's the best part of
your game. No, that didn't develop until I realized that I couldn't shoot.
It's fair, which is weird that I want the free throw shooting competition.
I just I just I want to know, like, yeah, I've
I've worked in the basketball industry for over a decade and I've never heard this
term before. Is that on me? Or have most people not heard it?
I never even googled it to see like if it was a if it
was a thing, and I just googled it now and it's basketball isn't the
first thing to come up when you type it in, And there's a lot
of other i'll say, more erotic things that come up when you type it,
so don't google it. So basically like you were scolded for cursing too
much. So now we're just going to talk about pornography on on the podcast.
This one was like actually unintentional. It just rolled off. It just
rolled off my tongue there. Maybe I shouldn't be using tongue in this discussion
either. Can we move on to Saandre Jordan? Can we move on to
number two? Let's just let's get away from DeAndre Jordan. We can.
It's it's Blake Griffin, shocker, a lot of dunk, a lot of
fun plays. Like I feel like Blake Griffin's value to the Clippers and what
he did in the Labsody era is like so readily apparent that we don't even
need to spend that much time on it. No, I think maybe just
to mention that he was so much more than a dunker, I've lost all
trains of thought. Now he's someone I'll try to try to bring us back.
He's someone who can like was able to face up and score all that
was basically throughout his entire tenure with the Clippers, even when Chris Paul arrived.
But then like you see after Chris Paul left, and he's just bringing
the ball up the court more. And we've seen it when he's been healthy
with Detroit anyway, and that's like he never would have surpassed EP three.
But I'm looking at his overall legacy. If just injuries aren't a factor.
And I know that maybe this is too big of a disclaimer given how good
he is, though I feel like it's not think of where he could be
just like remembered all time. I'm not saying he's gonna be a top twenty
five player of all time if he never gets in, but he's really ridiculously
good and famer I don't know. I would lean towards yes. But I
also just don't know, like if I if I have the recency bias there,
I'm actually going to try and look and see what not the perfect example
of fifty four point eight percent on Basketball References probability calculator, That's what I
was gonna That's what I feel like. It's too high. I think I
think it depends on how he recovers from this latest knee injury. If he
if he fizzles for the next couple of years and doesn't do anything notable,
I don't think he gets in. If he returns to that level, I
think I think he'll be one of those those litmus test cases where he's like
right on the cusp his career similarity scores, though if you look at them,
like there are some interesting players in there, but those are based purely
on wind shares, right, Yeah, but still just throwing it out there.
Yeah, yeah, I would probably. I think fifty is probably fair,
but you're right, it a lot might depend on how he recovers some
injury, and then that's going to even just make the But if even more
because he's clear. If if injuries aren't a huge factor of his career,
because basically every player gets injured unless they're DeAndre Jordan, apparently, he's then
a he probably is close to a consensus Hall Famer, right, Like,
if we're not talking about injuries messing up parts of his career, and also
if we don't have to talk about like complete playoff collapse during in that Lob
City era. I mean, it's shocking that that group of players never made
it to the Western Conference finals. And I think it was more a into
Chris Paul, who checks in at number one for US for US because the
lack of playoff success is such a big part of his legacy. But I
never really felt like it was because he underperformed. No, I mean,
there was definitely the untimely injuries and also twenty fifteen going up three to one
in the semifinals and then losing to the the Rocket, letting Josh Smith just
annihilate you in the fourth quarter of Game six. That's not been in the
Memphis collapse too. Yeah, they had some collapses, and that's probably why
his legacy, if at all, is just a little bit controversial, because
it's so tough to pin this. That entire era of Clippers basketball, it
was spectacular, but they like never making it out of the second round for
a team that was that good. I know, only two teams make it
out of the second round in each conference per year, but they were so
good you would you would have expected them, given the time, the amount
of time they were together, to have been one of those two teams at
least once, right. I mean, if we circle back to the trivia
question from the very beginning, and those those teams with the five most wins
over the last decade, all of them won a title or made it to
the conference finals except for the Clippers. Yeah, that's absolutely they are one
of the most fascinating teams. I would love to watch a thirty for thirty
on that Clippers era of basketball. I feel like that's probably thrown around a
little bit too haphazardly at this point in time, but I would love to
see something like that on them. And the other last thing maybe cover with
Griffins and if we're looking for points that maybe just aren't I won't say covered
enough, and maybe that wouldn't be immediately talked about. So he resigns and
we can the whole way that he resigned and the Clippers setting up the Clipper
for life. There is you know, an issue of morality there. Granted
this is a business. What they received for him in trade really helped position
them for where they are now. I mean, you got Tobias Harris,
who you were then able to turn into assets, some of which are still
with the Clippers like Landry Shammitt now, but you also got a first round
pick that you were able to help turn into shake gil Just Alexander at the
draft and then shake gild Just Alexander was a big part of the reason you
were able to get Paul George Like that's you know, his contract has now
viewed as onerous as it as it should be with the Detroit Pistons, but
he's a big part of what the Clippers are right now, not just because
he put them in the map by being an it guy, but because of
what they got back for him in trade. And then the last thing I'll
say is I really just appreciate his deadpan humor. If you've watched any of
his stand up sets and even when he's been doing interviews, I could just
appreciate that, And I it makes me wonder if that's why maybe Chris Paul
and him didn't necessarily get along, because Chris Paul seems like a very super
serious guy behind the scenes, at least you know, before his age thirty
four thirty thirty three seasons. Still, I appreciate the type of humor that
Blake Griffin conveys. Like that, that deadpan I feel like that's really hard
to perfect and he's done it well. That he has number one, very
very divisive pick here Chris Paul. Obviously, there is no doubt. I
don't think that you could really make a realistic argument for not having him number
one, even though one fan ballot didn't have him appear at all, which
was interesting. But yeah, I mean, is there any doubt? No,
there's none. I kind of wish he would have spent one more season
with the Hornets this decade because there would have been, then a real chance
of him landing up on four teams is top ten. Yeah, and maybe
maybe. I'm sure fans will even stop him in for what he did in
twenty ten twenty eleven, But Chris Paul is one of the best players of
all time. He might be I'd probably still go Magic Johnson, but he's
got to be, and maybe even Steph Curry at this point, but he's
one of the three best point guards of all time. To me, do
you disagree we might have actually already had this conversation. I don't disagree with
that. That's exactly where I have him so luke warm take Do you have
any honorable mentions that you'd like to take us through. Yeah, let's do
it. I don't think we need to spend much more time on Paul since
we're probably already on the longer end here, right we're closing it on an
hour, and so I would hope that these singular team ones can at least
stay under sixteen minutes. We're testing his shock. So people who got votes
outside the top ten from the fans. We had Matt Barnes at eleven,
d Nilo Gallinari at twelve to Bias Harris at thirteen. Again, like we
felt like there was a clear cut top thirteen. Below that was Austin Rivers
at fourteen, Eric Bledsoe at fifteen, Eric Gordon at sixteen, Paul Pierced
at seventeen, and then there was another drop off to Chris Cayman at eighteen
and Baron Davis at nineteen, Mo Williams at twenty, Craig Smith at twenty
one, tied with Shay gil Just Alexander. Then we had a tie at
twenty third between Jamario Moon Jerome Robinson, twenty fifth was Darren Collison, and
a tie for twenty sixth between Koran Butler, Jamichael Green and the one and
only Boban Marianovitch. I knew Boban was going to make a list in some
form. He had to get some love. I'm surprised he actually just wasn't
in the top fifteen. To be honest with you, Yeah, I mean
it almost felt cruel to separate him from Tobias Harris that much. Right,
Look, I can't believe they're not together anymore. My heart still hasn't fully
recovered from I know. I don't want to think about that. Yeah,
let's not we need to end this podcast now before we both cry. As
always, please remember to follow Adam on Twitter at Romo zero nine if you'd
like to participate in these exercises. The Los Angeles Lakers are on deck and
we will be sending out the former. Adam will post taste and at mba
underscore math you can. You can find it there. Please rate, review,
subscribe to us on iTunes or whatever else you get your podcasts. Until
next time, we leave you with the shout out to the one the only
Clippers living legend, Bryce Johnson, Sugar Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran, Marvelous,
Marvin Hagler, and Thomas Hearns. Legends whose four way rivalry define one
of the greatest errors in boxing history. Relive their decade of dominance in the
new Showtime Sports documentary The Kings, a four parts series premiering Sunday, June
sixth, only on Showtime