This is pod Popular podcast for the People, the Great Love Debate. It's
the Great Love Debate, the Great Love Debate. It's a great loved bab
Hi again everyone, It's Brian Howie. Welcome to the Great Love Debate,
the world's number one dating and relationship podcast since twenty fifteen. I am here
in the very fine studios of Pod Populi, podcast for the People. I
am back at the one in Scottsdale, Arizona. It is very very early.
It's a very early desert morning in the gloaming as they say, so
you get me, get just me today. Uh. And I know one
of the the fundamental tenets of podcasting, which which I do subscribe to and
I preach to people whose podcasts I help produce, is to always keep your
content evergreen. Meaning if you're listening to this, if you're listening to this
within you know, four minutes of an episode dropping, which some of you
are, or four years after it drops, the content of what I'm talking
about still has to have relevancy. So I'm gonna bend the rules on that
at TAD because I'm gonna reference something that happened within a few days of me
recording this. But it triggered something that I think has a bigger purpose in
conversation and meeting, and I think you're gonna find relevancy in it no matter
when you are listening. So the means do justify the ends, or the
ends do justify the means one of the two. So a few days ago,
as of this moment, this morning, Sandra Day O'Connor died. So
those of you who don't know who she was, she was the first female
Supreme Court justice back in the eighties because Reagan imported her. So it's back
then, and that is always an accomplishment that will be ever green. She
will have that in her oh bit and in her bio forever. And she
served in that position for about twenty five years, and that position is normally
a lifetime commitment, but she left after two and a half decades to spend
more time with and to care for her husband of more than forty years,
the love of her life, because he was suffering from Alzheimer's. And this
is one of the first circumstances where we started to have a conversation in this
country about about Alzheimer's back then. It's a very public thing. She stepped
down from a Supreme Court justice to care for this husband. So you might
think, as you're listening, is this a health episode? This is a
podcast about love and relationships. I think you'll see the relevancy here, so
stick with me. So, after a few years of trying to care for
her husband, it became beyond her capacity, and Justice O'Connor's husband, he
was aered into a facility to get full time professional care, and she kept
visiting him just about every day. But it got to the point where his
Alzheimer's he no longer recognized her, but she kept visiting him even after that,
to the point where she went to the facility and one day she noticed
that he was spending a great time with and was apparently completely smitten with another
woman, which has got to be one of the strangest feelings and complicated bunch
of emotions. Ever, he doesn't recognize her, but she's gonna he's with
her. She couldn't be mad at him, I guess you know, she
could be frustrated with the fact that he could he could still feel and express
emotion, just not to her. And I guess you know she apparently she
could be happy that he that he loved that her loved one, the love
of her life, felt this happiness and peace even if it was with someone
who wasn't her after all these years, his last days, months or whatever,
where him feeling some bond with somebody who wasn't her. And the whole
story is I was reading it, and it was and it was sort of
made public by, of all people, Patty Davis, who is Ronald Reagan's
daughter, and she had heard it from Senator Dee O'Connor's son. They felt
this kinship over Alzheimer's because Ronald Reagan had a tune whatever. And the son
revealed that this is what his mother was going through, that she goes into
the facility and she sees that her husband is having a relationship with another woman.
And I, you know, when I when I read it, I
was like, I had probably the same reaction as Justice O'Connor did, namely,
what the fuck? And then I thought about, which is why we're
here this morning, What is our obligation? What does it mean to love
forever and quote unquote unconditionally, and how do we deal with life and matrimonial
curveballs? And sadly, Justice O'Connor, a few days ago died of Alzheimer's,
and her husband ultimately did die of it too, possibly in the arms
of another woman, and obviously the president who appointed her, Ronald Reagan,
he famously suffered from it as well. It's such a devastating thing that a
lot of you guys have had a parent or loved one suffer from Alzheimer's,
dementia, all of these things where the mind goes, possibly before the heart
can go, And it is about as frustrating and confusing and heartbreaking condition as
you could possibly imagine. So I want to think about that, and the
obligation and the partnership. So I pulled up the wording, the exact wording
of excuse me of the I guess the most traditional of vows, the wedding
vows, the one that to this day, probably two thirds of marriages begin
with, I take you to be my husband wife, to having to hold
from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for
poor, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish till death
do us part. And that's some serious shit, if you think about it.
That's a serious oath, especially the death part. There's no wiggle room
for we're going to be gather for eternity or afterlife or reincarnation. In that
sentence, that is that is our end of the road. And I've obviously
never said those words until just now because I've never been married. But I
do believe in the fundamental premise of them, even though I don't necessarily believe
in quote unquote unconditional love. There are always conditions. And when you say
these words, sure, they're basically saying we're going to stick together through the
tough times. That's what they're saying. But how tough, career, job
loss, addiction, infidelity, emotional instability, all of it, All of
it has its qualifiers. So that's what I want to get into. I
want to take a bit of a dive on all of this, but I
got to take a quick break, and I hope you stay with me for
better or for worse, for richer, for poor, And if I don't
hear from our sponsors, we will definitely be poorer. So we will be
back right after this, and we are back now. Me I've been somebody
who has always believed that you as much as possible, you've got to stick
through your partner's shit as long as four things happen. I think four things
have to happen for you to stand by or stick with your partner when something
comes up. I think they have to own their shit. I think they
have to demonstrate that they are working on their shit. I think they have
to be seriously remorseful about the situation that led to their shit, and that
they understand the effect that their shit has had on the relationship. And I
think that those four things can get you through a whole lot of stuff and
at least find the both of you at a place where you can see some
light or some possibility to get through it to continue. Because if this person
did or didn't do something simply because they no longer cared about you, or
they're completely indifferent about the effect on you, or they never really cared about
it, I think at least two of those conditions won't apply. They probably
won't work on it, and they probably won't own it, and they don't
really give a shit how it affects you. So let me circle back to
the Sanderdale O'Connor situation for a second. Was her husband consciously or subconsciously always
craving attention and affection from another woman and once the part of his brain that
could could reason with or suppress that stopped functioning. Was he suddenly liberated to
seek love somewhere else? I don't know. I don't know if she thought
about that. She's a very smart woman, the Supreme Court justice, I
mean, and I hope she didn't have to spend time thinking about that or
overthinking it, because the why of it all and the when did this start
or how did this happen? That will kill you. So back to the
vows for a second. If two thirds of the people getting married are saying
these words and the other third of you, I've been to some of your
weddings and heard some of your original vows, and all I have to say
is, yikes, you guys are some of you are not great at the
vows. Stick to the script, stick to those I think. But anyway,
if two thirds of the people are saying the traditional words, what percentage
of them have thought about what they really mean and are truly prepared to go
the distance, no matter what better or worse. I hope lots. I
mean, I hope lots mean because I'm sort of romantic that way, and
I do believe in one guy and one girl, if it's right, forever
and beyond caveat is always if it's right. But I think that should be
the goal of both of you when you say it, we are taking this
leap, and it is into decades together and a life together, and a
life together that's going to be filled with at best twist and turns. And
you're probably like, but you've never been married, Brian Howie, doesn't mean
I don't believe it and still aspire to it. You've heard me on this
podcast many times talk about when people get divorced, and I always ask them,
not when did you know the marriage was over? I asked them,
when did you know it wasn't going to last forever? And I'm always astounded
by how many, especially women, give the answer when he proposed or before
we got married. And so if that's the case, clearly the richer and
the poor thing wasn't gonna be a deal breaker. You know, richer one
of you will probably leave poor. You almost assuredly gonna leave sickness and in
health, you know. I think people do understand that should be a fundamental
part of your commitment to each other. If one gets ill or God forbid,
incapacitated. Don't those vows create kind of this oral oath of I'm not
leaving you no matter what, and I'm gonna visit you at that care facility,
even if you're holding hands with another woman, because you don't really know
what you're doing, and you can say to me, ah, that's easy
for you to say, you know till you've faced it. Yeah, all
of us, damn right, You're probably right. None of us can really
know how we're gonna act in a situation where when confronted with the reality of,
oh, this is it. You know, I personally have stuck with
a whole lot of relationships with partners who are, no doubt struggling with some
things, all sorts of things emotionally and physically. And I do think that's
the obligation of being a partner, whether it's your actual spouse or not.
It says I've got you and we've got this together. I think that's the
very best part of a relationship is being able to say that and feel that.
I don't think there's anything more romantic than that, and I don't think
there's anything more bonding than getting through the storm together. But all sorts of
things can change all sorts of things. So when you're saying those words on
the altar or wherever you're having your ceremony, you got to think, are
they just words rooted in tradition or are you really giving some thought and commitment
to the meaning and some meaning to the commitment. I mean, you got
two hundred friends and families at the ceremony, you know, waiting to get
to the bar and the reception. So I suppose listing off a bunch of
well, unless this happens, you know, qualifiers, It isn't really a
solid recipe for a fun wedding or probably a lasting marriage. But is there
any thought given in the moment of what you are prepared to deal with?
Everyone can do the honeymoon and the house hunting and the gift receiving and the
pro creating and all the fun stuff, But not everyone can deal with the
emotional breakdowns and the problem children and the midlife crisis and the meddling in laws,
and the gambling addiction and the and the hot nanny and the handsome tennis
coach and the job loss and I don't know, insecurity, impotence, infidelity,
anything else that might come up, and there's obviously a million examples of
oh my god, fuck that obviously I would be out, And there was
also the obvious of course I would take care of them or stick with them
through this and that, you know, But a circumstance like what happened with
the O'Connors, she did continue to visit. Would you would you be like,
this doesn't make me feel right, but I'm going to be there for
him till the end, no matter what, because I don't know what they're
going through and I just have to be there, because that's the commitment I
made every time you visited. Would you beat yourself up trying to find explanations
or would you be selfless enough in the moments to be like, it doesn't
matter what it means for me. I care about what this means for him
and to him, and I'm gonna be there for him. To think about
things like what if I stop visiting and then this part of the brain does
remember me and wonders where I've been all this time? And who is this
new woman holding his hand? What if the brain clicks back on I don't
know. The diseases is an unpredictable thing, or is it like Helen Hunt
and Tom Hanks and Castaway she thought he was dead in in order to heal,
she had to move on, I think too quickly, but as quickly
as possible. So when does self preservation kick in over any sort of matrimonial
obligation. These are tough questions, and I think every circumstance an example does
have some nuance, and the answers aren't always easy to come by. So
I guess I'm just curious as to about how much thought, if you've gotten
married or gotten divorced or in a relationship, have you given to it,
And how much thought is even healthy to give, because you could you could
drive yourself nuts think about every single scenario and you probably wouldn't even come close
to thinking of ninety percent of them. I personally think if you love them
and they love you, you are together pretty much no matter what, even
the hard part. But I guess the details are in your different definition of
pretty much. Life's hard and love is one of the hardest aspects of that
hard life because there's no straight path and there are no assured outcomes. But
I think there can be a happily ever after, which is the you know,
leads into the misnomer of the hopeless romantic. The hopeless romantics are the
ones who are absolutely riddled with hope. And I think if you're in and
you hope for the best and try to navigate the worst, I think that's
it, which really isn't a bad way to end your vows. I love
you, you love me. Let's hope for the best and try to navigate
the worst. May you kiss the bride. Let's get to it. Try
that on for size, at least as a philosophy. You engage with age
couples out there, and there are a lot of you, because a lot
of you email us and tell us you you got engaged after meeting one of
our great love debate shows. You are welcome very much. Have just have
that conversation with your partner to be. Don't list all the well I think
I'd be okay with this, but not if you do that. It's not
about the details. It's about the philosophy and the understanding of where you are
as a couple and where you want to be till death to you part.
We're going to give it all and we're going to try the fuck out of
this marriage for as long as we can. And with everything we have.
And if you're like, well, no, I'm going to give it about
eighty percent, because this I think is my starter marriage and in my thirties,
I'm gonna get it right. Please don't go through with it. That's
my advice to you. I think you have to be prepared to go hard,
go all out, leave everything on the table, gas in the tank,
whatever metaphor you want to use, and hope for the absolute best.
The old baseball saying lots of people can hit the fastball, it's dealing with
the curveball. That's where the talent lies. That's where the payoff is.
And together, I think you're gonna have to try and handle the curves.
And you got to recognize that going in. Every couple can do the easy
part, can you do the hard parts. And if at the end of
the day your best wasn't good enough, oh well your best was good enough,
maybe not for the marriage, but for you. And you could say
the vows mattered and I met them. The death was of the relationship and
thus you parted the end, but you gave it a full go. So
I'm not saying you need to put all your chips on the table. And
give all the love and get nothing back. And I'm not saying you need
to give love to somebody who's clearly gone or clearly not worthy of it from
you, or they're just absent from any aspect of reality. They're just they're
not on the same page and they never will be. And that can change
two days or twenty years into a relationship. It can change. What I'm
saying is to find some initial sincerity and some real intent into what this commitment
means to the marriage and to each other, for better or worse, to
have and to hold, to love and to cherish. Because I think that's
worth saying, and if it's worth saying, I think it's worth having.
So I've made a commitment to you, Great Love listeners, and with that
we have lasted way, way longer than statistically most marriage. As we are
entering our eleventh season of our live tour schedule, we have been all over
the world. We are kicking off our eleventh season with our tenth anniversary show,
so we close out ten years kick off the eleventh year. I think
it's February sixth, something like that again, Evergreen check the calendar. Great
Lovedebate dot Com. It is at the Boca black Box Center for the Arts
in bulk Raton, Florida. Tickets are are on sale at Great Lovedebate dot
com or Boca Blackbox dot com. Every week I'm like, let's the exact
date. I should probably look it up. I'm asking you to look it
up. I'll look it up. Go to Great Love Debate at gmail dot
com. Send us your thoughts on this or anything else. Please like,
share, follow, and review this podcast eleven ten. Whatever you want to
say. Years in your reviews still mean a lot in the podcasting ecosystem,
because so death to us part As always at the Great Love Debate, we
never stop making love. See you next time the Great Love Debate. It's
the Great Love Debate. Degreet Love Debate. It's a Great Love Debate.