WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.839 --> 00:00:53.000 The the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 2 00:01:07.239 --> 00:01:45.599 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 3 00:01:46.640 --> 00:03:07.759 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 4 00:03:09.000 --> 00:04:32.480 the the the the the the dout they they all right. Welcome, How 5 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:41.839 you guys doing, as you know, I turned sweet sixteen today, so 6 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:49.279 happy birthday to me. I got to pick a pretty pink Maserati and a 7 00:04:49.319 --> 00:04:57.160 Bugatti. They're both pink. My zillionaire parents bought me both of those, 8 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:03.160 so I got a Bogot you now go Bugatti. So I'm top g aka 9 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:11.920 top J And I was acting like a brat because it was my MTV sweet 10 00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:17.879 sixteen shout out to me and party later at my place. Also, it's 11 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:27.079 open for him tonight. I will be doing a fun stream with my buddy 12 00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:32.199 who had just transitioned Tristana over on my channel, which is this channel. 13 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:44.079 Tonight, we will be covering the classic libertarian paradigm film Wall Street by aller 14 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:47.720 Stone. Absolutely, Alexander, would you like to come into the debate, 15 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:50.680 So all the haters in the chat, it's open for him tonight. That 16 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:56.959 means that you get to come in debate so random, dudes, is your 17 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:03.079 liar loyal? Come in, bring your debate. There is the link you 18 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:14.480 can call in via X aka Twitter aka drama aka high school Drama app. 19 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:19.240 Because everybody's just involved in a bunch of drama on X. It's like it's 20 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:23.879 like high school. It's the new high school. Jamie said that. I 21 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:30.600 said, you're right, welcome to Internet. So but yeah, we always 22 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:38.839 invite the haters. It's weird because you would think, you would think haters 23 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:41.759 would just come in here and like easily shut it down, you know what 24 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:47.680 I mean, because it's always so obvious in their mind, how evil I 25 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:54.199 am or whatever, And yet when we invite them to come debate, it's 26 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:59.839 just spurging out a lot of the time. Why are you asking if you 27 00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:02.399 can come up? Brother? Link is right there? Well do I call 28 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:08.160 in? The link is in the chat, dude, it's in the show 29 00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:16.600 to description. I need my poscription for y'all condition, which is to be 30 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:19.319 a slow boy. But hey, it's okay. We're here to help you 31 00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:24.759 become fast boys on this channel. Move you out of that short bus living 32 00:07:24.839 --> 00:07:29.839 that you're in that puts you on the fast track to being a fast boy 33 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:34.800 and the way that you do that is to call in via the link. 34 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:40.959 So Athanasius, if you don't call in, if you just or Alexander what 35 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:45.000 was his name, Alexander? If you don't call in and you just span 36 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:47.800 the chat, you just get booted. So it just wastes yours and ours 37 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:54.879 times is un you dude, We already got seven people lined up. We 38 00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:58.480 just started, and yes I'm a little late, but like I said, 39 00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:01.399 we will be over on my channel, which is this channel tonight with Tristana 40 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:11.959 covering all over Stones Classic Wow, Screet Wall Street Street, screet Street like 41 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:18.879 the Yin Yang twins, Wow Street with scriffles. There's a lot of scribbles 42 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:24.639 on Wall Street. How y'all doing the night? It's a beautiful balmy Monday 43 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:31.279 where it's eight degrees outside. Bomb It's a balmy eight degrees with ice everywhere. 44 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:37.120 Wolverine says he just subscribe, even though he'd been listening for a long 45 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:39.879 time. Well, there you go. That's what we want to hear. 46 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:46.679 People are fussing you're late, bro, I'm always late. You know why? 47 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:50.919 Because time is an illusion. Time don't exist except in your mind. 48 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:58.840 I means clocks are a conspiracy of the of the temporal industrial complex to trap 49 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:05.919 you, and then for the idiots. I believe I'm being serious. That's 50 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:07.480 just a joke. Shout out to our friends, by the way, I 51 00:09:07.559 --> 00:09:11.679 keep forgetting to plug them because they've been so cool. They featured me in 52 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:16.399 their magazine. It's like an edgier Mad magazine. It's called Flip City, 53 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:22.840 and shout out to Flip City. They do some really awesome Mad magazine style, 54 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:26.919 but edgier stuff. So if you grew up with Mad magazine and you 55 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:33.360 want to relive that vibe, but in a more adult, serious, sophisticated 56 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:39.840 way. I don't mean adult like. I don't mean adult like a shop 57 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:45.320 you go in in a trench coat in nineteen eighty five with Peewee Herman. 58 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:54.480 I'm talking about adult as in a grown up person, a sophisticate, sophisticated 59 00:09:54.559 --> 00:10:00.639 man, an sophisticated lady, of which we have about three percent of my 60 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:05.320 audience is ladies. Shout out to the three percent. Shout out to the 61 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:11.519 point one percent. You are gonna have to have an occupy Wall Street to 62 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:16.960 come against them. One percent of ladies that watch this channel, it's open 63 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:20.399 for him. As you know, the way this works, we open it 64 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:26.279 up and you gotta make an argument. So I know that's tough for a 65 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:28.639 lot of people. They have a hard time with that. They think an 66 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:33.159 argument is arguing. No, an argument is not arguing. An argument is 67 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:39.279 a thesis, a proof. Right. If it's a thesis, you've got 68 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:43.840 supporting evidences. Perhaps, If it's an argument, perhaps it is. It 69 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:48.960 is itself a proof of something. It doesn't matter how bad you think I 70 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:54.600 am, how evil of a person you think I am. By the way, 71 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:56.840 it's weird how meanness is a subjective thing. Right, you can't measure 72 00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:03.360 meanness? Right? What's the this algorithm? Oh he's mean? What is 73 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:07.120 that? Jokes? What planet are you on, dude? Jokes are mean? 74 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:11.440 No, as you guys, hopefully everyone has figured out calling me mean 75 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:16.440 is just an excuse to not engage and not deal with actual argumentation. But 76 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:20.720 that's okay because most people just can't handle that, and we understand that. 77 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:24.840 So we got a lot of we got a lot of slow boys, a 78 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:30.639 lot of carbohydrate boys out there. Get their feelings hurt. They can't handle 79 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:35.120 it. But the other thing that we noticed from the last time we're about 80 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:39.080 to open it up, I mean, I've known this for a long time. 81 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:46.559 But you know, if you saw the so called exchange with I thought 82 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:48.200 he was a gnostic. I didn't really know anything about this dude, right, 83 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:52.480 So people were like, why did you hop into this debate stream and 84 00:11:52.600 --> 00:11:56.000 debate that was so mean of you? Well, first of all, I 85 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.600 saw like five minutes of this, and I was like, well, they're 86 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:05.080 debating, this sounds fun. Let me hop on. And all I do 87 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:11.679 is ask questions. And these guys immediately retreated to the slimy tactic, which 88 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:16.279 they all do. Why are you being mean, dude? Why are you 89 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:18.600 being mean? Man? Well, I don't even know you, dude. 90 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:24.320 I mean, these are people whose channels are literally dedicated to attacking everything that 91 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:28.320 we believe, which doesn't bother me. I'm not afraid of these dudes are 92 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:37.080 scared of their suit abilities. But if you're gonna launch years of attacks and 93 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:43.559 you fold within one minute of a few simple questions, pretty much everybody can 94 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:50.039 see that your tactic of calling me mean, it just doesn't work. Dude. 95 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:52.679 People have been figuring out, wait a minute, this is just something 96 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:56.519 that people fall back on. And you look at the five hundred and seventy 97 00:12:56.519 --> 00:13:01.720 comments. I mean, almost everybody sees through it, right, Like n 98 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:05.639 are like, all right, this is just bull crap, dude. Everybody 99 00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:07.799 can tell that. I mean, the dude literally says, I have no 100 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:13.679 idea what the law of identity even is. Yeah, this is exactly right. 101 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:18.759 It's the meme of crying out as they strike you. And it's not 102 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:22.519 just what these people do. This is actually pretty common. We notice it 103 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:26.840 with a lot of people, and I think, as Elon pointed out today, 104 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:33.799 if you can't take jokes or being satirized or people looking at your positions, 105 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:41.919 that actually just signifies weakness. And you'll notice it almost everybody's retort in 106 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:48.440 the last couple of years, especially since people have basically decided that they will 107 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:50.759 they won't debate. It's like Sam Shamun is one of these people that no 108 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:56.559 one will debate anymore because they know that, you know, nobody's no Muslim 109 00:13:56.600 --> 00:14:00.600 is going to win that debate. And it's kind of the same type of 110 00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:03.600 thing going on here where the only people that want to debate at this point 111 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:09.159 with me are like the really extremely low tier people with like a thousand subscribers 112 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:13.639 who are completely diluted and think that they're like a celebs or something like that. 113 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:16.200 They that all they do is talk about how they want a debate, 114 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:18.559 and then I won't debate them. It's like that, Why am I going 115 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:22.240 to debate a dude with like five hundred subs? Right? There was a 116 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:28.399 dude this week trying to say dyers already agreed to a debate, and now 117 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:31.360 he's backing up. I never even heard of you until two days ago. 118 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:35.320 I didn't agree to a debate. How am I going to agree to a 119 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:37.399 debate when we've never interacted. I don't even know who you are. But 120 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:41.720 this is the kind of nonsense that happens all the time. And I already 121 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:46.960 have a debate with Jake the Muslim metaphysician lined up in a month. I'm 122 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:52.840 not going to start randomly just taking every debate that pops up. Now. 123 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:58.600 These debates are not real debates. And I don't mean that as an insult. 124 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:03.320 Took people to hop on. It's just that pretty much nobody hops on 125 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:07.360 except kind of you know, people who have questions. Every now and then 126 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:13.960 we get like a hot headed, feisty, feral person or a wine mom 127 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:20.080 trying to rap or do her slam poetry literally, But most of the time 128 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:22.399 it's just people asking questions, which is fun. You don't have to come 129 00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:24.879 in with a hot debate topic. I don't care. You could do whatever 130 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:28.080 you want. Just please make an argument. It's just so old and tiresome 131 00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:33.600 when people will cop on with the same old Why ten years ago, did 132 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:37.039 you make a joke about smoking weed on the internet? Oh? You got 133 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:39.600 me? Wow, you know I'm exposed. You got me a good one. 134 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:43.919 And it's like, obviously a joke, and they act like it's not 135 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:48.320 a joke. It's it's ridiculous. But to the topics today. Remember you 136 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:52.240 have to keep it to the topics. If you call in asking me about 137 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:58.559 bb Net and Yahoo, and if you call in asking about Joe Biden and 138 00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:04.080 don Trump, like, that's not the topics today. It's atheism, Catholicism, 139 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:11.240 Protestanism, Islam and more. I just did a giant multiple Epstein's analysis. 140 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:15.639 Who won't talk about stuff? Who won't talk about well been talking about 141 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:22.840 stuff before you or even on the internet. Dummies, we won't talk both. 142 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:29.360 You mean, I don't immediately talk about stuff that destroys channels. Duh, 143 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:36.840 Like, what's the point of that there's no point in it. Everybody 144 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:45.519 knows that YouTube is a heavily uh censored soft platform to where you can vary, 145 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:51.440 you can only talk about you know, limited scopes of things, so 146 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:56.639 there's not there's no advantage to like trying to forcibly talk about accept that. 147 00:16:56.679 --> 00:16:59.159 People I think do that to try to shut your channels down, right, 148 00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:02.519 they troll you hop on whatever. Look, there's rock Fin, there's all 149 00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:07.079 these other platforms where you can have more controversial topics and subject matter covered, 150 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:14.519 so that again today's topics are simply atheism, Catholicism, protestanism, Islam. 151 00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:18.359 If you have an objection as a Jewish person, you can hop on here 152 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:21.839 then, I mean, there hasn't been one. So it's like we've opened 153 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:25.119 this up. How long have we been doing this open for him? Like 154 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:30.359 on Twitter? Ever since Twitter Space has existed basically years, and people are 155 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:34.880 always like, he won't do this, he won't, he won't debate, 156 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:38.640 so and so any of those people could hop on here unless they acted like 157 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:42.759 complete loans and I block them, which is very likely because I do have 158 00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:49.279 famously and I'm very proud of it. Three thousand plus people blocked, and 159 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:56.079 that's because three thousand plus people are idiotic, And a lot of those people, 160 00:17:56.119 --> 00:18:00.039 by the way, over the years have not a lot, maybe I 161 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:06.200 don't know, a handful have reached out and said, hey, would you 162 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:07.839 unblock me? I was an idiot three years ago. I didn't know what 163 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:11.680 I was talking about. Yeah, yeah, And so a lot of those 164 00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:18.000 people end up coming around to our perspective. But a lot of times it 165 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:22.000 takes, right, it takes. It takes a while, dude, what 166 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:26.039 are you talking about? Obviously, right, we're going to be within the 167 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:30.559 terms of service because there's no there's no point in those topics. But like 168 00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:33.759 that's all anybody wants to talk about when the topic is not that. The 169 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:40.160 topic is atheism, Romanicantholicism, Papasy, church history, protestantsm Calvinism, Islam, 170 00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:45.200 tag precell philosophy of pistemology, skepticism, relativism, materialism, universal is 171 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:52.599 logos, logi ethics, any of those topics you may call in. Now, 172 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:56.279 let's open it up, as you know the way it works. You 173 00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:59.680 can even have the floor if you want to talk for an extended period of 174 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:02.440 time. By the way, who else even does this? Does anybody else 175 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:06.640 even do this? Or they open it up to anybody to make arguments. 176 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:12.720 No, hardly anybody does that because they're scared. They don't want to get 177 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:18.160 a challenged, they're afraid of getting whatever. All right, So that dang, 178 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:22.599 we already got like eleven people in here. We got a philosophy. 179 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:25.960 Man, Let's see Epicurus. Let's see what Epicurus wants to talk about. 180 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.279 Gotta unmute, guys, you gotta mute. When you cop on a space 181 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:40.519 that automatically mutes, you just unmute yourself. All right, Hey, what's 182 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:45.640 up? What's up? I'm into a picurean philosophy here to represent an atheist 183 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:51.000 position. Okay, what's on your mind? What do you uh? What 184 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:56.920 led you into that position? Just seeing the world with genocide and sexual assaults 185 00:19:56.920 --> 00:20:06.039 and poverty and child starvation and the vast majority of god gods that are described 186 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:10.160 there. That God is perfect. So an all perfect, all moral God 187 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:15.680 created the universe full of love, genocide, sexual assault, starvation, childhood 188 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:22.440 cancer. So my argument is premise one, a perfect God would never create 189 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:27.160 evil. Premise too, there is evil in the world. Conclusion, there 190 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:32.720 is no perfect God. Yeah, So basically just the old the Odyssey problema 191 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:37.680 you argument, right, Yeah, So have you looked at any replies to 192 00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:42.319 this, because I mean this is kind of standard atheist stuff. Yeah. 193 00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:51.279 The main reply is God needs a world with free will because God doesn't need 194 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:55.359 anything. So no, I don't think God has any needs. So yeah, 195 00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:59.680 right, So do you believe that there is evil and the world? 196 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:06.759 Oh yeah, terrific suffering and tragedy. Okay, what what is the benchmark 197 00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:15.559 for what's evil versus good? That which causes humans great suffering? That's what 198 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:21.880 evil is in any agency that intentionally creates that suffering. So we got several 199 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:25.160 assertions, right, so you got about three assertions there. How do you 200 00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:37.839 know epistemically that that's what evil is? Because humans and even animals and other 201 00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:44.720 species like chimpanzees, when we create, we commit certain actions that do harm 202 00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:49.880 to others. We instinctually know this is okay, So your answer, so 203 00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:55.559 your answer for an epistemic criteria is that because humans and animals know this, 204 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:59.960 you don't see a problem with that. No, it's an it's an observe 205 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:03.759 from nature, right, So number one, that would be the naturalist fallacy, 206 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:07.440 the idea that just because something is observed, it's therefore natural. Or 207 00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:14.680 quote unnatural. You know that's a fallacy, right, okay, Oh okay, 208 00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:17.759 so number one, that's fallacy number two. The fact that you observe 209 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:22.880 something doesn't mean that it's universally the case, does it. It could be 210 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:26.519 it could not be. Oh okay, so then theism could be the case. 211 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:30.640 So it's not an argument if it could be otherwise. Okay, all 212 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:36.559 right, good job, bro, nice one. You just giving it to 213 00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:38.640 you. I'm not gonna argue like you. You're not going to argue because 214 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:44.559 none of that constituted an argument exactly. Moving on, Ricky, what's up? 215 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:52.039 Ricky? You? What's up? Rick Slick? Rick what's up? 216 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:59.960 Yeah? I'm just uh. I will only watch the opening statements of that 217 00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:07.160 debate on Lofton's channel, And you know, it's kind of funny to see 218 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:14.759 the guy that Lofton picks to debate on, like on this kind of space. 219 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:17.960 I want to see what your thoughts are on that, and and the 220 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:22.839 guy still won shout out to yeah, so so lot Lofton's tactic is to 221 00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:29.839 bring on an inquirer to debate, uh pop normy apologist from TikTok and uh, 222 00:23:29.960 --> 00:23:32.559 I haven't watched it. I've watched a few clips of it, but 223 00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:36.839 the consensus seems to be that even the inquirers can now pretty much mop the 224 00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:37.960 floor. But I mean, what do you expect from Lofton? I mean, 225 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:44.119 the guy's a total snake. Yeah, I mean, the truth will 226 00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:48.960 always win. And and that's what you're saying about, uh, slow boys 227 00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:53.799 turning into into fast boys. I can see like how a lot of people, 228 00:23:55.599 --> 00:24:00.319 uh, just by inquiring and wanting to know the truth, they automatically 229 00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:04.640 become less slow. So you've been a great help in that, by the 230 00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:07.559 way, and thank you. Yeah. I think that you know, over 231 00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:12.559 time, people might be tempted with Catholicism. I was at one time when 232 00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:17.359 I was a low information voter, and then when you experience it, you 233 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:19.559 know that world inside and out. When you get a taste of it, 234 00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:23.880 a lot of the honeymoon, a lot of the sales pitch car salesman stuff 235 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:29.759 wears off. And so really the only audience that Lofton could actually draw is 236 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:33.759 the low tier Catholic answers style audience. But if you watch Kyle's recent video 237 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:40.000 rebutting Catholic answers, I mean, it's it's actually pretty astounding how low tier. 238 00:24:40.119 --> 00:24:44.000 The Catholic answer stuff is even people like Scott han like when they reply 239 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:48.240 to Orthodoxy, it's literally just the same meme level stuff that you see just 240 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:52.759 like spammed on on on Twitter. It's like they don't they don't go into 241 00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:56.519 any of the texts, they don't go into any of the books. Every 242 00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:00.920 now and then people like Ebarrow, we'll talk about different you know, apologetic 243 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:03.400 books, church history books, works, whatever, But I mean, it 244 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:08.200 really is just the sort of like you know, quote mining spamming approach. 245 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:12.920 Once people see through that quote mind spam approach, like there's nothing left in 246 00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:18.599 the papacy is completely bankrupt and people are figuring it out. It's becoming like 247 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:23.839 public to even the normy world that the papacy doesn't do all the stuff that 248 00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:27.799 it's supposed to do, and so they're basically just short circuiting. So the 249 00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:33.559 reality is they're they're having meltdowns, they're short circuiting, and this low tier 250 00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:41.079 stuff is only gonna work to convert the most low tier person who hopefully eventually 251 00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:45.400 will see through this. Because when I read through the I read through the 252 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:48.279 comments of some of Lofton's recent stuff, I mean, these people have no 253 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:52.440 idea about anything. So as they start to figure stuff out, they realize, 254 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:57.440 hey, wait a minute, like this is this is car salesman pitch 255 00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:02.240 that I was sold a lemon, right, I mean, Brian Holdsworth just 256 00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:06.119 made a video saying I didn't sign up for this. Yeah, that's exactly 257 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:10.000 what we've been telling you, bro, that the papacy is not what you 258 00:26:10.039 --> 00:26:12.440 think. It's a car sales pitch. And then when you actually get your 259 00:26:12.519 --> 00:26:15.720 lemon and you drive it home and it falls apart, you're like, what 260 00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:25.440 is this? Yeah? Yeah, and yeah that's something. When I reverted 261 00:26:25.559 --> 00:26:27.759 to Catholicism, I was like, you know, I'll just submit to the 262 00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:33.880 pope, I guess. And that's really kind of the mentality. And you 263 00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:37.359 know, I've been telling my parents, you know, I'm from Puerto Rico, 264 00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:44.039 so it's the ethnic cultural religion, and they got me to talk to 265 00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:49.359 the priests or the parish that they go to, and he used pretty much 266 00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:55.880 fallacious argument about how you know, this is like the religion you were baptized 267 00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:02.160 and raised in and this is where God has put you in and yeah, 268 00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:07.359 it's just overall very little tire and not convincing at all. The bad thing 269 00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:12.880 is that there's barely any Orthodox churches where I'm from. So yeah, yeah, 270 00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:23.079 it's it's definitely it's been a journey and uh yeah yeah, well stay 271 00:27:23.079 --> 00:27:27.000 strong. Orthodoxy is going to grow. I know it's difficult. I had 272 00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:30.880 a long period where I was not near churches as well, so understand what 273 00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:33.559 this like. But stay strong. I think Orthodoxy going to continue to grow 274 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:37.680 as rom implodes. And I would add to a lot of people, this 275 00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:44.279 is something that Father Moses, buddy of mine, has been stressing. UBI 276 00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:48.160 has stressed this. It is good to begin to look into Orthodoxy, but 277 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:55.680 do not quote or do not convert to Orthodoxy because you want something politically based 278 00:27:55.680 --> 00:28:00.519 and trad because that's not what the Orthodox Church is. It's not a political 279 00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:07.920 movement that you attach your social media to to become a baz trad right wing 280 00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.599 political pundit, like, that's not what it is. And if you think 281 00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:14.839 that it's going to be that, you're going to be disappointed like this dude 282 00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:18.319 was disappointed with the papacy, right, So you have to understand that when 283 00:28:18.359 --> 00:28:26.160 you leave trad world, it's going to take you years to be reoriented to 284 00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:30.960 the Orthodox way of doing living and thinking. It's very different. It's very 285 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:34.599 difficult in a different way, and it takes time to get used to that. 286 00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:44.799 So just be prepared for that. And people who are tradcats looking at 287 00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:51.119 Orthodoxy it's a great thing. But I'm just advising people to take your time. 288 00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:56.720 Do not jump in, do not immediately run to the Orthodox Church and 289 00:28:56.920 --> 00:29:00.920 expect that it's going to be totally free. It's got its own problems. 290 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:06.200 It's got unique sets of problems that are different from the tragcat world. I'm 291 00:29:06.200 --> 00:29:10.279 not saying it's not better. I don't. I've never regretted leaving tragcat world, 292 00:29:10.359 --> 00:29:15.400 not once since leaving it ever, period. Never even had an inkling 293 00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:18.920 of thinking of going back to that, not in a million years. But 294 00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:25.000 if I was talking to me back in the day in my twenties, I 295 00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:32.440 would definitely say, like, slow down, relax, don't rush. I 296 00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:33.519 know that's odd because people think, oh, I got a rush into this, 297 00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:36.680 or I'm gonna be damned in the next two days if I don't arguet 298 00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:37.279 and rush, but I don't get into the worth of our church, I'm 299 00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.240 damned. Just take your time. No, you're not damned if you're not 300 00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:44.000 in the Orthodox Church. Within two days. Okay, we don't believe that 301 00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:48.519 you're gonna It's gonna take time to lose a lot of that Latin legalistic, 302 00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:56.079 black and white mechanical attitude and that has to go. So that's first, 303 00:29:56.319 --> 00:30:00.880 and it's gonna take time for that to happen. Remember, the model here 304 00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:07.519 is like a hospital where you need to be healed, or like rehab. 305 00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:12.400 Actually, I think that's the best model that Father Deacon Ananias has, which 306 00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:17.880 is that think about this like rehab. And you're like, what, I 307 00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:21.000 don't need rehab. I'm righteous, No, you do need rehab. We 308 00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:26.119 all do. That's the point. Now, the papacy itself is corrupt, 309 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:32.599 traditional Catholic. You're welcome to call in and let's go. Let's go to 310 00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:34.680 Vatican one and let's go to the documents. I've got my Denzinger right here, 311 00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:40.880 buddy, So you want to call in tradcat, let's go to Denzinger 312 00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:45.160 and let's see. By the way, I still have not had any papal 313 00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:48.880 proponent. None of you guys will take me up on the offer to debate 314 00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:55.799 the geopolitics of the papacy, because I will go into Tome after Tome after 315 00:30:55.880 --> 00:31:02.720 Tome, of geopolitical writing from even tradcats explaining to you how your papacy was 316 00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:10.319 co opted by the intelligence agencies in the Western power structure. So I will 317 00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:12.759 debate you on the theological front and on the geopolitical front. And by the 318 00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:17.759 way, no Roman Kelly will dare debate me on that, none of them. 319 00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:22.480 I begged for professors to come debate this topic because I can show you 320 00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:30.599 when and where the CIA co opted your papacy, which means that the promise 321 00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:33.200 of Peter doesn't apply to your papacy unless you think the promise of Peter also 322 00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:40.640 applied to the CIA. Should I extend that to Alan Dulles and Bill Donovan? 323 00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:44.920 Were they also guided by the charism of Peter when they co opted You're 324 00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:49.960 ridiculous. First c you don't know anything, you tradcat in the chat, 325 00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:53.319 I tell you right now, you don't know anything about this, and none 326 00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:57.440 nor do any of you except one of your great trad cats, David Wemoff, 327 00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:00.720 who wrote a giant eight inn page book on this topic. He knows 328 00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:07.359 all about it. And yet when he goes on y'all's podcasts like Timothy Flanders, 329 00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:10.519 right, he's based and cool, but if I talk about the same 330 00:32:10.599 --> 00:32:19.400 thing, he's evil conspiracy tous t for hell? Has Trent Horn talk to 331 00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:25.400 me, bro, We've already done a debate that he lost famously. Do 332 00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:30.480 you mean about this? Yes? Of course he declined this. Trent Horn 333 00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:34.039 is not gonna debate. Do you apologie, Trent Horn is that's total normy, 334 00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.480 dude. Trent Horn doesn't think that there's any push for world government. 335 00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:42.920 He doesn't even know what the world economic for him is. Of course he's 336 00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:46.799 not going to debate this. Are you kidding? Do these people? Yeah? 337 00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:54.559 Exactly? Langley is the first Sea Yeah exactly. Trent says that if 338 00:32:54.599 --> 00:32:58.880 you talk about the world like gomy for him and whatnot, that's jack chick 339 00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:00.920 level. Yeah, okay, so I guess it doesn't exist. So Trent 340 00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:08.880 Horne thinks that it's so low tier and yeah, exactly Tim Gordon. So 341 00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:13.640 wait a minute, does that mean that Trent thinks Tim Gordon is Jack chick? 342 00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:19.880 Because if Tim Gordon talks about the same stuff I talk about and that 343 00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:22.000 makes me jack chick, then that means that Tim Gordon is also a jack 344 00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:25.640 chick lovel according to Trent. But you see, look, dude, you're 345 00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:32.119 dealing with people who have no clue about any of this stuff. And the 346 00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:37.400 reason that I get so feisty about this is just that they have pulled the 347 00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:45.319 most beta woos level passive aggressive shit over the years, right like, oh, 348 00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:52.240 he's mean. The reason their excuse is that I'm mean. Look at 349 00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:55.039 the tradcat no offense, folks. I can't call in. I have to 350 00:33:55.079 --> 00:34:00.480 go eat dinner. I'd have to figure out how to call in. Yeah, 351 00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:04.359 that's what That's always what you guys do. Not I don't have any 352 00:34:04.359 --> 00:34:10.679 respect for traycats. I'm sorry. I except for Babylon Bros. And Tim 353 00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:15.159 Gordon that's the only traycats I respect. And David Wemmoff. Jordan, what's 354 00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:22.000 up Jordan? Michael Jordan, No or twenty three Michael Jordan, Hey Jay, 355 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:25.039 what's going on? Just fussing? What's up with you? Oh? 356 00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:29.239 I wanted to know. First of all, I think what you and Jamie 357 00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:34.159 do your wife is great, so thank you for everything that you both do. 358 00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:40.960 Thank you. I wanted to know where this and this might not be 359 00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:46.400 in the purview of this discussion, but I wanted to know where Martin Luther 360 00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:57.800 and Orthodoxy overlap and if they do. I mean, yeah, there's going 361 00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:02.639 to be some areas where Orthodoxy is closer to Protestantism than Roman Catholicism, but 362 00:35:04.360 --> 00:35:08.000 there's going to be areas where it's not. So we're not going to overlap 363 00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:16.480 on anything related to solar scriptura or solo feeda or justification, but we will 364 00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:22.320 overlap on areas where he would critique the papacy. We would agree with that. 365 00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:24.079 I mean, father, just father decided. Trentam wrote a whole book 366 00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:30.760 on where Orthodoxy agrees and disagrees with both Protestantism in the papacy. It's called 367 00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:32.719 Rock and Sand. But so, I mean, there's a whole book on 368 00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:37.159 that very topic. But just in short, we would agree with him on 369 00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:42.400 the critiques of the papacy that I did the churches decentralize that kind of stuff, 370 00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:47.760 critiquing purgatory, critiquing the merits of the saints, indulgences, all of 371 00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:53.880 that is foreign to the to the first millennium of the church. But do 372 00:35:54.239 --> 00:36:00.599 you have reverence for Martin Luther himself? Not as like the Lutheran Church. 373 00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:06.320 We all know that that's a crazy no, like co opted No. Martin 374 00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:08.599 Luther said all kinds of No, he said all kinds of crazy heterodox things, 375 00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:12.599 like if you read the Bondage of the Will, that book's mannichean. 376 00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:17.719 Yeah, okay, I'll have to check that book out. But I mean, 377 00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:20.639 you didn't know that. I'm not being mean, but you didn't know 378 00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:24.280 Martin Luther wrote a book called Bondage of the Will. No, I'm like, 379 00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:30.519 I'll just confess. I'm I'm like hereditary involved with Lutheranism, Like, 380 00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:36.360 okay, father, and yeah, great, got your father. Yeah, 381 00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:38.000 yeah, I'm not trying. Yeah, I got you. I thought you 382 00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:40.599 were debating. That's fine, I understand you're just asking a question. Yeah, 383 00:36:40.599 --> 00:36:45.079 I would uh, I would say if you look at Luther's book Bonde 384 00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:50.280 of the Will, I mean, he's pretty much distancing himself from anything that 385 00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:53.320 we would call classical Christology. So for us as Orthodox, the way that 386 00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:58.800 we're going to settle the grace versus free will, predestination versus free will, 387 00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:01.199 it's going to be the paradigm of Christology, which is settled at the first 388 00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:07.199 six slash seven councils. So even the Seventh Council in iconography is based on 389 00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:12.360 Christology. So we have two wills, two natures, two energies in Christ, 390 00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:15.280 which really settles for us the whole issue of predestination and free will, 391 00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:20.880 because Christ's incarnation is the whole model of how we're saved. That's the paradigmic 392 00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:24.280 materiology, not justification by faith alone. It's Christology that we begin with, 393 00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:32.000 and I would say look into that as the separation point between us and both 394 00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:39.320 Calvinists and others. So there's a good book, say Soul Alexander, The 395 00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:45.840 Christological Controversy is a good book on that. Sean, what's up, Shawn? 396 00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:57.559 Hey? Yeah, okay, Oh, So I have a question that 397 00:37:57.639 --> 00:38:01.280 the soteriology of the Orthodox Church versus the Catholic of Prouston Church. I don't 398 00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:07.280 know the soil position of the because I just came out of into Orthodoxy. 399 00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:14.039 I'm just a bit confused about the reality of the Orthodox Church. What's confusing? 400 00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:19.239 So, like, is it similar to Romanptholicism or is it is a 401 00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:23.239 different in Roman? I think the paradigm again is Christology. So the way 402 00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:27.920 that Christ deifies the human nature that he assumed is the model by which we 403 00:38:28.039 --> 00:38:34.280 participate in his uncreated energies. So the Eucharist that we partake of is the 404 00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:38.119 process of deification is the mystical union. So that's how we're deified, that's 405 00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:44.440 what we participate in. So really the model for uh Materiology and Orthodoxy is 406 00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:47.239 the essence centery distinction. We are becoming and participating in God, not in 407 00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:52.480 essence, but via his uncreated energies. So I would say read something like 408 00:38:52.559 --> 00:39:00.280 the dialogue between uh Acandinos and Palomas called the Dialogue with a Barleymite, about 409 00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:04.239 an eighty page thing, but that would give you a good grounding in what 410 00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:08.480 our whole paradigm is all about. So it's very different from rob Becantholicism. 411 00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:13.280 I mean, they believe in a union or whatever, but what they say 412 00:39:13.480 --> 00:39:15.880 they participate in is a created accident in the soul. We don't believe in 413 00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:21.880 created grace. We believe in uncreated grace. All right, appreciate you, 414 00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:27.679 Yeah, yeah. I also have a ton of classic talks and lectures on 415 00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:30.159 that you can go. We lectured through the entirety of John Damascus's on the 416 00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:34.840 Orthodox faith like five years ago. You could go watch those lectures that would 417 00:39:34.840 --> 00:39:43.719 show you that as well. Maximos, what's up, Maximos, Hey We're 418 00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:50.000 going Hey, can you hear me? Is there somebody in the chat that 419 00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:54.239 go ahead, I can here you go ahead. Oh oh yeah, that 420 00:39:54.360 --> 00:40:00.239 was just a quick question. So, uh, I kind of have I 421 00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:02.400 kind of know the answer, but I just kind of want to hear your 422 00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:06.159 take on it. I'm pretty sure you've answered this question in the past. 423 00:40:06.199 --> 00:40:10.239 But so, say like you're arguing with an atheist, which their paradigm doesn't 424 00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:15.239 have a justification to account for why we shouldn't eat meat, et cetera. 425 00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:22.960 But let's just say they take like a Platonic or a what's this other guy, 426 00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:29.440 a Pythagoron or Pythagoras. They take that position to try to justify why, 427 00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:37.320 you know, we shouldn't eat animals or et cetera, because the reincarnation 428 00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:39.960 could possibly be a you know, a relative or a human being, and 429 00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:45.079 therefore you shouldn't eat animals or something like that. So what would be like 430 00:40:45.159 --> 00:40:49.559 a good way to Rebut if they were to take this position, I think 431 00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:53.159 the easiest way to go about that is to just think about the classic problems 432 00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:59.280 for Platonism. I mean, the classic problems of Platonism are there's no clear 433 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:02.280 way to know or relate the realm of the ideas to the here and the 434 00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:07.920 now. So if that falls apart, right because of the vast dissimilarity between 435 00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:10.639 the realm of the forms or the realm of numbers and geometry and the world 436 00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:15.440 of flux that we inhabit, then the rest of the whole system falls apart. 437 00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:19.280 I mean, you could also ask them for epistemic justification for how they 438 00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:24.239 know that eating an animal is eating a relative. So but again they're not 439 00:41:24.280 --> 00:41:30.199 going to have any answers to that. But Platonism and Pythagoreanism are mystical systems 440 00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:34.320 at root. So even though Plato did talk about justify true belief, when 441 00:41:34.360 --> 00:41:39.440 it comes down to the basic metaphysical presuppositions of Platonism or Neoplatonism or Pythagoreanism, 442 00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:45.840 they're really going to be pretty arbitrary. So they'll say stuff like, well, 443 00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:50.239 we just know all reality emanates from the one. It's like, okay, 444 00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:52.719 so how do you know that? What does that mean? Like? 445 00:41:52.119 --> 00:41:55.559 What is the one? You know? How do you know all reality emanates 446 00:41:55.559 --> 00:42:01.639 from? It'll be a very mystical kind of sort of arbitrary position. So 447 00:42:02.719 --> 00:42:06.280 that would then if you go for that, I mean, then all of 448 00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:10.280 the ethical claims that it's wrong to do this or whatever would also fall apart. 449 00:42:10.519 --> 00:42:14.159 So and Anther's we need to know. Like a lot of times playtons 450 00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:17.079 will say stuff like, well, numbers and geometry and forms, they just 451 00:42:17.199 --> 00:42:22.559 are just are what I mean, you can't just that's not an argument that 452 00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:24.280 well, it just is just all That's what Matt del Honey said, right 453 00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:30.440 position. Yeah, it reminds me like that one Pagan you you debate. 454 00:42:30.440 --> 00:42:32.800 I don't if you remember, like till years ago. He's like, nor 455 00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:37.400 he remember that. Yeah, Australian or New Zealand, try just get the 456 00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:40.320 justification for his platonism, right, he was just trying to. It's like, 457 00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:43.840 well, he just wanted you to grant him the system. And then 458 00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:46.960 he's like, well, let's just dialogue about it. But uh, the 459 00:42:47.320 --> 00:42:53.199 second quick question, So I was watching one of your interviews with the caller. 460 00:42:53.239 --> 00:42:58.599 I think it's it was his theme. You guys were talking about the 461 00:42:58.719 --> 00:43:04.320 logi and the local way. I don't remember the same thing, but yeah, 462 00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:08.559 sorry the logo or sorry the the logi. Sorry, well anyways, 463 00:43:08.599 --> 00:43:13.079 but I don't remember the guy's name. He was this scholar guy you had, 464 00:43:13.239 --> 00:43:16.119 and you guys talked about the specific subject. But one of the things 465 00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:22.480 that I guess you guys kind of differed on was on the the energies, 466 00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:27.159 for example. I think he said somewhere along the lines that obviously there's a 467 00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:32.880 distinction between the essence and the energies. But like, how would you how 468 00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:36.159 would you like? What would you say if, for example, in order 469 00:43:36.199 --> 00:43:44.840 for those energies to be actualized, they they require a they're required to be 470 00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:49.639 part of the essence, Like you can't have energies without the essence, and 471 00:43:49.719 --> 00:43:52.599 you can't have an energy without an essence. Would would that be correct to 472 00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:59.800 say? Yeah? The Combineosians say that every energy signifies some nature from which 473 00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:04.840 the energy proceeds. So I mean the action, the action of building a 474 00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:07.920 house is an action proper to human nature, and it proceeds from my human 475 00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:13.719 nature. So the same analogy, according to Covedotions, applies to God. 476 00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:17.440 God creating the world is an action proper to the divine nature, to Divinity, 477 00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:23.199 and it's not reducible to or synonymous with the divine essence. So right, 478 00:44:23.480 --> 00:44:25.920 right, But so what do you say that it's in a sense, 479 00:44:25.960 --> 00:44:30.199 it's part of it, but not identical to it. Wou would that be 480 00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:34.360 correct? I mean it proceeds Like when I build a house, the energy 481 00:44:34.400 --> 00:44:37.440 that I use to build a house proceeds from me. But it's not. 482 00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:42.719 I'm not My human nature is not building a house. Okay, okay, 483 00:44:42.800 --> 00:44:45.239 yeah that that fears it up. I was just kind of it was just 484 00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:50.400 the distinction between I guess, like, well, there's different what you may 485 00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:53.800 be asking is about different types of energies. So not every energy is the 486 00:44:53.840 --> 00:44:57.480 same type of thing. Right. God has, for example, knowledge of 487 00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:01.800 all the worlds that he didn't choose to create, So there's a divine idea 488 00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:07.599 or a low gie for everything in every possible world. And yet God didn't 489 00:45:07.639 --> 00:45:12.840 actualize every possible world, which is why you can't say that his ideas are 490 00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:15.800 identical to his essence, because if his essence is necessary, then every idea 491 00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:20.639 of every possible world is also necessary, and therefore every possible world is also 492 00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:24.320 actual. So it's not. I mean, it may sound abstract or something, 493 00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:29.960 but it's actually pretty kind of obvious. Like if I have ideas of 494 00:45:30.760 --> 00:45:36.840 houses that have twenty bedrooms, three bedrooms, ten bedrooms, a movie theater, 495 00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:40.599 and I build a house with one bedroom and no movie theater, right, 496 00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:45.760 Like I just chose to actualize that idea, even though I have all 497 00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:50.400 these other ideas. Okay, so that's why Maximus calls them thought wills, 498 00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:57.280 because God doesn't will to actualize every potential or every thought or every idea that 499 00:45:57.320 --> 00:46:02.719 he has. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, the logi is not 500 00:46:02.840 --> 00:46:08.159 the actualized The logi is just what is a divine idea? And that could 501 00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:12.639 be all kinds of things, right, I mean, what is a You 502 00:46:12.679 --> 00:46:15.760 know, God's knowledge is infinite. Besil says, the works of God are 503 00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:21.000 infinite. Right, So we don't know everything that God knows or does. 504 00:46:21.840 --> 00:46:27.440 So what we do know is that what he's revealed to us and what he's 505 00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:30.840 also revealed to us that he didn't create every possible world. Right, we 506 00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:36.639 all we know about is this world. So that means then that not every 507 00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:42.320 idea that God has is actualized. Actualize just means that it comes to be 508 00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:47.960 on the basis of whatever his predeterminations or his his willing is. So the 509 00:46:49.039 --> 00:46:54.199 will element that's brought in distinguishes it from Platonism because in Platonism there is something 510 00:46:54.320 --> 00:46:59.360 similar to divine ideas. The forms are basically the same thing, but there's 511 00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:01.599 no notion of God being a personal being that wills to this, to do 512 00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:07.280 this versus that. So you understand the intomism or in Augustinianism, because they 513 00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:14.039 don't put person first. They have a platonic conception and then they try to 514 00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:16.599 tack on the idea of a personal God later. But you have to start 515 00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:21.960 with the person of God. God is the personal he father, right, 516 00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:27.320 and that's the basis also for what we mean by divine conceptualism or God creating 517 00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:31.360 on the basis of ideas. So does that make sense or as it's getting 518 00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:37.280 too abstract? Oh yeah, you're making sense. Yeah, because I thought 519 00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:39.760 about that as well, like the whole plate, the rambled ideas having a 520 00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:45.559 similarity but obviously not being exactly the same. So in Platonism, there's no 521 00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:51.440 In Platonism, there's no idea that the one chooses which things to actualize in 522 00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:58.519 terms of the emanations. It's just whatever is emanates from the one. So 523 00:47:58.599 --> 00:48:02.119 there's no idea of a person volitional choice in the one. So this actually 524 00:48:02.119 --> 00:48:07.679 becomes a big problem for Platonism because reality is fundamentally not personal. It's impersonal. 525 00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:13.400 It's just a sort of spitting out of whatever is. So if the 526 00:48:13.519 --> 00:48:19.320 first principle is not personal, then we don't have a basis for reality at 527 00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:25.840 a ultimate level, being purposeful, purposive, teleological, and having a tilose. 528 00:48:27.079 --> 00:48:30.800 You see, that's why Platonism is a flight from the here and the 529 00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:37.400 now to the one. It's an ahistorical antihistorical position. Platonism. It deemphasizes 530 00:48:37.519 --> 00:48:45.840 and rejects history, time flux, change for a supposed return to the one. 531 00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:50.599 But all of this again just evolves into mysticism and irrationality because there's no 532 00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:53.679 reason for any of it, even the split of the one into the diet, 533 00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:58.760 it's just irrational, makes no sense. Why was there ever a schism 534 00:48:58.840 --> 00:49:04.519 from the monad to begin with? And so Platonism result resorts to mythology for 535 00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:12.719 this. Yeah, that makes that makes perfect sense. Yeah, good question. 536 00:49:12.840 --> 00:49:14.639 So, uh so we got a bunch of people, Thank you, 537 00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:16.880 Maximos. Who is Austin? I don't understand. Okay, here's Austin. 538 00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:22.039 I see now, I see them now. So people thought I'm trying to 539 00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:23.800 run from these people. I just now saw. I'm trying to figure out 540 00:49:23.840 --> 00:49:28.559 who this person is. And then somebody said, you're trying to run from 541 00:49:29.480 --> 00:49:31.760 suitor. No, I see Sotera. So I'll go to Austin and then 542 00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:35.719 I'll go to Sodor. So there's like literally like sixteen people in here. 543 00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:43.920 I'm trying to run from people. Hello, yes, sir, what's up? 544 00:49:45.280 --> 00:49:50.960 So, yeah, I'm a Protestant. So I just wanted to ask 545 00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:58.760 some questions about Orthodoxy basically in church authority. Okay, So basically the Jews, 546 00:49:58.880 --> 00:50:04.280 right, they had they have an oral tradition and they have like succession 547 00:50:04.360 --> 00:50:10.480 from Moses to the time of Jesus, and Jesus appeals to the scripture and 548 00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:15.159 says, you know, the Pharisees is something in front of Moses. They 549 00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:20.440 have authority, but you know, don't listen to them when they tell you 550 00:50:20.599 --> 00:50:23.360 that I'm not the Messiah. And so like he kind of rechecked their oral 551 00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:30.880 tradition and went back to the scripture. So why did God establish Pharisees who 552 00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:36.920 are like not infallible, but then after Christ he established an infallible church? 553 00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:39.639 Like why did he go from not infallible to infallible? Right, So, 554 00:50:40.559 --> 00:50:45.519 first of all, it's conflating two different things. The situation of the Church 555 00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:50.880 post Pentecost is not identical to the situation of Israel pre Pentecost. So the 556 00:50:51.039 --> 00:50:55.719 importance of Pentecost is always lost on Protestants because Protestants kind of default want to 557 00:50:55.840 --> 00:51:01.239 take the church back to a pre Pentecost reincarnation Old Testament type of setting. 558 00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:07.840 But beyond that, it's also a fault. It doesn't work because the way 559 00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:13.320 that the Church, or the the way that Israel functioned still had recognized public 560 00:51:13.400 --> 00:51:17.239 authorities. So it's not true that Jesus completely rejected the Pharisecra. He rejected 561 00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:22.360 the traditions that contradicted the Word of God. He also affirmed Phariseic tradition in 562 00:51:22.400 --> 00:51:25.599 the very passage you mentioned, because Matthew twenty three, when it talks about 563 00:51:25.599 --> 00:51:30.320 the seat of Moses, it doesn't say that that oh here in Exodus. 564 00:51:30.360 --> 00:51:34.039 No, it just says the Pharisee sit in the seat of Moses. That's 565 00:51:34.079 --> 00:51:37.880 a tradition that there is a lineage from Moses through the synagogue system of Ezra 566 00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:43.559 to have this kind of authority. And in the Old Testament system they had 567 00:51:44.119 --> 00:51:47.880 authority and they could make judgments that were binding on the local community at a 568 00:51:47.960 --> 00:51:52.880 local level. So whether it's the Levites or whether it's the Pharisee system post 569 00:51:52.960 --> 00:51:59.400 Ezra, they did have authority. So the idea that is common in a 570 00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:04.519 lot of pro groups is that it's either it's either fallible and I don't care 571 00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:07.280 about it, or it's infallible and it's binding. And the Orthodox Church is 572 00:52:07.360 --> 00:52:10.079 not that way, Like, we don't have just a two tiered thing of 573 00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:15.320 either it's either infallible or it's fallible. Like everybody's bound to their local bishop, 574 00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:20.159 but the local bishop isn't infallible. So a Protestant could probably agree with 575 00:52:20.280 --> 00:52:22.519 us on that perspective. That, okay, so you have, you know, 576 00:52:22.639 --> 00:52:25.360 recognize local authorities and whatnot. Where we begin to differ is when we 577 00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:30.119 get into the specifics of things like could the Church bind somebody's conscience to a 578 00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:34.679 decision? And if you look at Anicia or all the way up to the 579 00:52:34.760 --> 00:52:38.039 Seventh Council, there's a consistent pattern of the Church and the councils binding people 580 00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:46.000 too a decision that's normative and authoritative for the entire church. So for example, 581 00:52:46.039 --> 00:52:50.920 if you agree with Arius or if you agree with Thestorius, then you 582 00:52:51.159 --> 00:52:54.519 are excommunicated from the church. There's no notion of the freedom of conscience, 583 00:52:54.639 --> 00:53:00.960 which Protestant reformers later adopted. So that's a question of normative thing that's different 584 00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:05.920 from individual existential certitude about what's right or what's wrong. So I could agree 585 00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:10.199 with the idea that in the Old Testament, could an individual believer hearing the 586 00:53:10.280 --> 00:53:15.679 prophecies of Isaiah when Isaiah's prophesying and teaching. If I'm walking around Israel and 587 00:53:15.719 --> 00:53:17.440 I hear Isaiah and I listen to him, can the Holy Spirit work on 588 00:53:17.480 --> 00:53:22.880 my heart to convince me of Isaiah's message? And can I know with certitude? 589 00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:25.920 Absolutely? But that's not where we disagree with a Protestant when it comes 590 00:53:25.960 --> 00:53:30.920 to authority and infallibility. Where we disagree is on the means that the Holy 591 00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:37.239 Spirit uses to provide that knowledge and that certitude. So where I disagree is 592 00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:39.920 that you and I might let me put this a way. You and I 593 00:53:40.039 --> 00:53:45.239 might agree that the Holy Spirit is what convinces an individual of a position or 594 00:53:45.920 --> 00:53:47.199 say, the deedy of Christ. You read the scriptures, I read the 595 00:53:47.199 --> 00:53:52.159 scriptures. We both come to the conclusion that Jesus is divine because there's so 596 00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:57.199 many passages that teach it, and ultimately we would say that it's the Holy 597 00:53:57.280 --> 00:54:00.559 Spirit that guided us in that. It's a different question though, when we 598 00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:05.719 ask, but how do we know which books authoritatively make up the canon of 599 00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:10.960 scripture? And that's a post Apostolic tradition based decision of what you think are 600 00:54:12.039 --> 00:54:15.079 fallible men, and we're just saying that, Well, it makes more sense 601 00:54:15.159 --> 00:54:19.920 to say that not everybody posts to Apostolic period is fallible. There are some 602 00:54:20.159 --> 00:54:24.280 cases where they're actually infallible and they're binding on people's conscience. So it's a 603 00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:29.519 question of is their normative authority? Did Jesus set up any body of people 604 00:54:29.519 --> 00:54:32.679 who have the ability to bind people's conscience. That's really where the rubber meets 605 00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:39.920 the road between Protestants and Orthodox and Roman Catholics. Okay, so yeah, 606 00:54:40.119 --> 00:54:44.559 I can, I can agree with some of that. But so you mentioned 607 00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:49.559 the canon and let me have to rely on the canon. Yeah, but 608 00:54:50.559 --> 00:54:54.760 the Old Testament. During Jesus' time, Jesus relied on the Pharisees to give 609 00:54:54.840 --> 00:54:59.920 him his canon. Like when Jesus was reaching the Bible in the Senegal, 610 00:55:00.119 --> 00:55:04.639 he was reading the canon which the Pharisees had given him, And you would 611 00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:07.679 agree that the No, we don't. We don't even agree with that that, 612 00:55:07.239 --> 00:55:12.960 I mean, no, the Apostles following Jesus did not agree to the 613 00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:19.960 Palestinian Jewish canon, right, So you would say that, you would say 614 00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:24.199 the Jews during the time of Jesus, then they weren't the scripture they were 615 00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:28.760 reading was in a complete because they didn't have like Maccabees and stuff like that, 616 00:55:28.920 --> 00:55:32.119 so they didn't have like a well hold on again, So Jesus and 617 00:55:32.440 --> 00:55:37.440 the New Testament in dozens of places, both the New Testament writers, they 618 00:55:37.480 --> 00:55:45.440 all cite the deuterocanonical texts. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah. So it's entirely possible that 619 00:55:45.559 --> 00:55:49.679 Jesus did accept the testimony of Maccabees. And one way that we know that 620 00:55:49.800 --> 00:55:57.400 he did is that his church accepted the Book of Maccabees. Right, So 621 00:55:57.800 --> 00:56:00.119 you know, do you think Jesus set up a church in history or not? 622 00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:07.480 Yeah? Yeah, I think Jesus set up a church. But the 623 00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:12.960 thing is, I wouldn't say that he set up like an infallible institution because 624 00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:15.400 I mean, like you have the Coptics, you have the Eastern Well, 625 00:56:15.440 --> 00:56:19.760 that's a that's a fallacy. That's a fallacy. So you're arguing that because 626 00:56:19.880 --> 00:56:23.119 people have split or that there's divisions that there wasn't an infallible church. That's 627 00:56:23.119 --> 00:56:29.960 a fallacy, No, not not not that the schisms make one church is 628 00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:35.039 not infallible. But it's more that like, how do you like know which 629 00:56:35.199 --> 00:56:37.960 like, for example, you've just go through a bush of intellectually you have 630 00:56:37.039 --> 00:56:40.679 to read through thousands of years of history to find out which one's the fake 631 00:56:40.800 --> 00:56:45.320 church and which one's the real church. And well, hold on, wait 632 00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:46.800 a minute, now, now you're going back. Now you're going back to 633 00:56:47.119 --> 00:56:52.079 a different topic, which is existential certitude. So that's a different question because 634 00:56:53.280 --> 00:56:57.920 nobody escapes that problem, the fact that you're a Protestant, that isn't you 635 00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:00.079 don't escape that epistemic dilemma by saying, well, about I'm a Protestant. 636 00:57:00.159 --> 00:57:04.519 So it's not an issue for me because you already said that Jesus did set 637 00:57:04.559 --> 00:57:07.280 up a church. And so if I start asking you about the nature of 638 00:57:07.360 --> 00:57:09.239 that church post apostles, what does it look like? What is it? 639 00:57:09.400 --> 00:57:12.719 What do you think the church looks like in the first, second to third 640 00:57:12.800 --> 00:57:19.159 century? So the church in the early times where you can read about it 641 00:57:19.159 --> 00:57:22.000 in the epistles, you can read about it from the church fathers, right, 642 00:57:22.079 --> 00:57:27.039 And how have you read those some of them? Yeah, okay, 643 00:57:27.119 --> 00:57:30.639 So how does a Cyprian iren as justin Martyr Clement, How do they describe 644 00:57:30.639 --> 00:57:37.519 the church? What aspect do you mean? What aspects you mean? Do 645 00:57:37.599 --> 00:57:40.519 they describe as infallible? Any of the features? Are there? Bishops? 646 00:57:40.719 --> 00:57:45.239 Is there a Eucharist? Is that there? Yeah? Yeah? Is there? 647 00:57:45.280 --> 00:57:52.760 Baptismal regeneration there not? Not necessarily not in the epistles in the Church 648 00:57:52.880 --> 00:57:55.159 Fathers some of them, Yeah, would believe in that. Wait a minute, 649 00:57:55.239 --> 00:58:00.199 so again wait, not in Paul's epistles. So what's the why sing 650 00:58:00.280 --> 00:58:07.280 the Labor of regeneration and Titus three? So yeah, that's just about baptism 651 00:58:07.719 --> 00:58:14.079 removing sin, I think. Yeah, that's called baptismal regeneration. Yeah. 652 00:58:14.199 --> 00:58:16.760 Oh so okay, uh, for you're referring to like baptism, Like, 653 00:58:17.519 --> 00:58:21.679 let's come on, let's let's let's look. How do you how do you 654 00:58:22.280 --> 00:58:24.960 have access to the correct canon of Scripture as a Protestant without the church, 655 00:58:28.599 --> 00:58:34.360 so like for a Protestant for you, yeah so need so old Testament canon 656 00:58:35.079 --> 00:58:39.719 is the Hebrew canon? So so so Jews that reject Christ, in your 657 00:58:39.800 --> 00:58:45.079 view, determine the canon for the Church, not the church well before Christ. 658 00:58:45.559 --> 00:58:51.239 Yeah, because they had authority. So again, so notice proving the 659 00:58:51.360 --> 00:58:53.320 very thing I said at the beginning of the discussion that Protestantism wants to take 660 00:58:53.360 --> 00:58:58.480 us back to a pre Pentecost church where the church doesn't have authority, there's 661 00:58:58.519 --> 00:59:01.440 no Holy Spirit given to the church. So you guys basically have no use 662 00:59:01.519 --> 00:59:06.679 for Pentecost because Jesus said that he would be with Jesus said he would be 663 00:59:06.760 --> 00:59:08.599 with Jesus said he would be with the Church to the end of the world 664 00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:14.400 when he's talking about the comforter coming at Pentecost and that he would lead in 665 00:59:14.440 --> 00:59:17.000 God the Church into all truths. It's a visible college of apostles that he 666 00:59:17.079 --> 00:59:21.360 gives that promise to. You then said, but the church is not a 667 00:59:21.480 --> 00:59:24.599 visible institution. So where did the church apostatize in your view in the first 668 00:59:24.639 --> 00:59:30.039 few centuries. Okay, well, there's a few things to impact that. 669 00:59:30.159 --> 00:59:35.239 First of all, you said, the Pharisees, like the Jewish any authority. 670 00:59:35.760 --> 00:59:37.840 I would disagree with that. I say they have authority. I'd say 671 00:59:37.840 --> 00:59:42.599 they have no similar authority to the Church that is today. So again, 672 00:59:42.719 --> 00:59:45.840 so you're a judaize, You're a Judaizer. So you're a Judaizer. That's 673 00:59:46.000 --> 00:59:50.719 the admission here, right. What? No, So the Church today has 674 00:59:50.760 --> 00:59:54.440 the same level of authority as the Why would the Church take the canon from 675 00:59:54.480 --> 01:00:00.599 Palestinian Jews when the Church and the apostles themselves use the do Eral canon and 676 01:00:00.679 --> 01:00:08.239 cite the duoconical books. Whoa I mean cited? I'm pretty sure does Enoch 677 01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:13.719 gets cited to at one point. I'm aware of that. I did. 678 01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:17.039 I didn't argue that it's canonical merely because it's cited. I argue that the 679 01:00:17.199 --> 01:00:23.000 Church includes it in the canon as as the Church decides the canon. And 680 01:00:23.119 --> 01:00:27.719 you're saying, I don't accept what the Church fathers decided, I'm going to 681 01:00:27.800 --> 01:00:31.880 go with the anti christ Jewish canon. Yeah, but you need to make 682 01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:36.480 the distinction between the Jews before Christ and the Jews now that's your distinction. 683 01:00:36.840 --> 01:00:42.920 That's your made up distinction, because the Jews before because where where is the 684 01:00:43.000 --> 01:00:45.719 Old Testament canon that you're talking about. You're arguing that Jesus used the Palestinian 685 01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:51.039 canon. You don't have any proof of that. Well, we have we 686 01:00:51.159 --> 01:00:54.800 know what the like from Jewish tradition. We know like what the main Bible 687 01:00:54.880 --> 01:00:59.199 so Jewish. So you don't write you go to right, where do you 688 01:00:59.239 --> 01:01:01.440 think Jewish? Yeah, but you don't understand that Jewish tradition is not from 689 01:01:02.079 --> 01:01:07.079 pre Jesus era. The Jewish tradition that you're referring to is a post christ 690 01:01:07.280 --> 01:01:12.800 era, first second third century so called Judaism that is actually based on a 691 01:01:12.840 --> 01:01:16.400 bunch of rabbinical traditions. So you're not actually accessing the Old Testament Judaism like 692 01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:22.639 you think by deferring to the decision that post christ Jews made about the canon. 693 01:01:24.519 --> 01:01:29.920 Yeah, they made the decisions off to us, but they still can 694 01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:31.920 trace the tragedy. No, they can't. So your religion is right, 695 01:01:31.960 --> 01:01:36.280 So you're a Judaizer. Your religion is not based on Christianity the first second, 696 01:01:36.320 --> 01:01:38.480 third century. It's based on the Judaism of the first second third century. 697 01:01:38.840 --> 01:01:45.719 Right, This is why you're a heretic. It is you just admitted 698 01:01:45.760 --> 01:01:49.840 that. You just said the first second and third century Jews can trace their 699 01:01:49.920 --> 01:01:53.199 traditions which I follow to prior to Christ. That's what you said. Yeah, 700 01:01:53.280 --> 01:02:00.400 because so you don't follow Christianity, you fall you're a Judaizer because because 701 01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:05.559 you don't follow the because you don't follow the Church's decision on the canon, 702 01:02:05.840 --> 01:02:09.880 which includes the duc If I'm a Jew living in Palestine right pre Christ. 703 01:02:10.360 --> 01:02:14.320 You're telling me that none of this you're not even answering that you're not. 704 01:02:14.440 --> 01:02:17.000 That doesn't answer the point. I'm just going back to your point that they 705 01:02:17.039 --> 01:02:21.039 have no authority. So I'm saying, if I'm a Jew living in Palestine 706 01:02:21.079 --> 01:02:22.679 pre Christ, none of this is even answering. This is not answering. 707 01:02:24.079 --> 01:02:29.400 You just told me. You just told me that you follow the decision of 708 01:02:29.440 --> 01:02:31.880 first, second, third century anti Christ Jews who fought against the Church in 709 01:02:31.920 --> 01:02:35.880 the first, second or third century. You go with their canon because they 710 01:02:36.039 --> 01:02:38.280 claim to be able to trace it to prior to Christ times. So you 711 01:02:38.400 --> 01:02:44.119 just admitted you're a judaizer, Right, you have to define Okay, how 712 01:02:44.119 --> 01:02:47.159 do you define judaizer? Uh huh? Right, what you just described, 713 01:02:47.199 --> 01:02:54.400 That's that's how your the definition is. Yeah, so let's get our canon 714 01:02:54.519 --> 01:02:59.400 from anti Christ first second century, first second, third introduced, which now 715 01:02:59.440 --> 01:03:04.400 he's saying he doesn't actually referred to judyizers. Everybody knows that's where judaizer comes 716 01:03:04.400 --> 01:03:15.159 from. Lex, what's up, Lex, what's up? What's on your 717 01:03:15.199 --> 01:03:22.599 mind? So? This isn't necessarily my position, but it's a trinitarian question. 718 01:03:23.800 --> 01:03:31.599 So the position is basically that that Jesus is the son of God and 719 01:03:31.760 --> 01:03:37.079 not necessarily God, and like Trinitarians, they call him like God the son. 720 01:03:38.480 --> 01:03:45.000 Okay, what about what's what's the problem? Are you eating? Bro, 721 01:03:45.400 --> 01:03:49.440 I'm going to eat on the stream grossing me out? And he dropped 722 01:03:49.559 --> 01:04:08.440 exactly. Okay. So next up was Soter unmute hello more speaking to Jader. 723 01:04:08.760 --> 01:04:12.880 Okay, so he's a troll. So you guys spent with this dumb 724 01:04:13.079 --> 01:04:23.719 this Your dumb voice is not even funny? Is that like it? Why 725 01:04:23.760 --> 01:04:27.920 do you even think it's not even funny? Dude? It's dumb. I'm 726 01:04:28.119 --> 01:04:31.000 call it to take on your low tear sort of objections to efeuism. I'm 727 01:04:31.000 --> 01:04:39.840 at your voice isn't even funny, dude, just stupid. It's like ten 728 01:04:39.920 --> 01:04:43.199 year olds. Yeah, so this is what you guys were begging for. 729 01:04:43.400 --> 01:04:49.119 So for the last thirty minutes you wanted that guy to call in it's dumb. 730 01:04:49.280 --> 01:04:56.119 All right. Let's see, I'm looking for like actual objectors here with 731 01:04:56.320 --> 01:05:00.280 actual arguments. Look, Ortho, guys, come on, Like, I 732 01:05:00.360 --> 01:05:02.880 know a lot of Orthodox guys want to call in and ask her. It's 733 01:05:02.920 --> 01:05:05.639 not really I mean, I don't mind you guys being here, but it's 734 01:05:05.719 --> 01:05:09.480 like, whenever I open it up for this stuff, it's like a million 735 01:05:09.639 --> 01:05:13.039 Orthodox people pile in, which is fine. It's just like, but the 736 01:05:13.199 --> 01:05:17.559 topics are atheism Catholicism, and then everybody wants to ask their Orthodox questions. 737 01:05:18.639 --> 01:05:25.239 Uh, let's see, I'm trying to pick the profile. The ones with 738 01:05:25.360 --> 01:05:29.119 no PfP are always the wildest ones. Let's choose Daniel Lotus. This sounds 739 01:05:29.159 --> 01:05:33.360 wild. I mean, if you're gonna call in, at least have a 740 01:05:33.440 --> 01:05:44.440 funny voice. That wasn't even funny. It was just dumb, right my, 741 01:05:46.199 --> 01:05:54.679 can you hear me? Okay? A couple of questions. So I'm 742 01:05:54.679 --> 01:06:00.639 a Roman Catholic looking into some of the things. Is about the essence, 743 01:06:00.880 --> 01:06:08.159 energies, distinction, and honestly, I read Palamas just finished that a couple 744 01:06:08.199 --> 01:06:12.440 of weeks ago. Finish what that was pretty I read the triads. Oh, 745 01:06:12.679 --> 01:06:15.679 nice, good job he makes. I mean, he makes a pretty 746 01:06:15.719 --> 01:06:19.559 good point. So but I have some questions on that, and then later 747 01:06:19.679 --> 01:06:28.400 on maybe we can talk about ecclesiology. Okay, okay, So if we 748 01:06:28.519 --> 01:06:31.519 know God through the energies, then how do we know? And you would 749 01:06:31.559 --> 01:06:36.000 say that there is a feliu in the energies because all energies come from the 750 01:06:36.079 --> 01:06:40.239 Father, through the Son and in the spirit. Right, it's called the 751 01:06:40.400 --> 01:06:46.920 energetic procession. So it would be like a type of like phe Yeah, 752 01:06:47.039 --> 01:06:50.159 because the word just means from the Son, and we all believe that the 753 01:06:50.199 --> 01:06:57.079 Holy Spirit proceeds through the Son or from the Son in the movement of the 754 01:06:57.199 --> 01:07:00.199 energies and in the movement of the person. So the Father generates and the 755 01:07:00.320 --> 01:07:04.679 Sun inspirates the spirit through the Son. But that doesn't make the sun a 756 01:07:04.840 --> 01:07:10.480 cause of the spirit's existence or hypostasis. Yeah, that would be that would 757 01:07:10.519 --> 01:07:16.679 be like a metaphysical thing of begetting or spiration is different than what's happening in 758 01:07:16.800 --> 01:07:21.719 the actions of the of God, right, right, So the movement of 759 01:07:21.800 --> 01:07:27.480 the energies is distinct from the persons, but the movement is concurrent with the 760 01:07:27.559 --> 01:07:30.800 persons because every action is a personal action, so every action is triadic. 761 01:07:30.880 --> 01:07:34.400 So if God loves, the love moves from the Father through the Son and 762 01:07:34.480 --> 01:07:39.159 in the spirit. So there's this that that movement is the same as the 763 01:07:39.280 --> 01:07:43.719 movement of the persons and this is all coming out of the Cappadocians. Yeah, 764 01:07:43.719 --> 01:07:48.000 I gotta maybe read some of the Cappadocs. And then so in the 765 01:07:48.199 --> 01:07:53.000 essence, what is the relationship between the son and the Spirit. They're just 766 01:07:53.199 --> 01:07:57.920 one thing. And then do they love? Is the love of the triad 767 01:07:58.639 --> 01:08:02.400 energetic? Yes, God's love is one of the many energies that he has 768 01:08:02.599 --> 01:08:06.079 that he shares amongst the persons. The Father loves the son, so this 769 01:08:06.239 --> 01:08:11.920 is the way Jesus describes it in the High Priestly Prayer and John. But 770 01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:15.960 the relationship to the essence is that the Father communicates everything that the son has 771 01:08:16.079 --> 01:08:19.439 to the son and biver and also by extension, to the Holy Spirit. 772 01:08:19.880 --> 01:08:25.960 So the Father communicates all the energy's power, existence and essence that he has 773 01:08:26.680 --> 01:08:30.880 to the son and to the Spirit. That's actually the Nicene definition. The 774 01:08:31.039 --> 01:08:36.479 generation of the son is from the Father's essence. So it's a personal essential 775 01:08:36.600 --> 01:08:45.239 generation that communicates everything that the Father has to the sons. Gregory says, 776 01:08:45.359 --> 01:08:50.960 accept the father's hypostasis, so the Father gives everything to the son except Father 777 01:08:53.039 --> 01:08:56.960 such that they're kind substantial. Absolutely. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, 778 01:08:58.239 --> 01:09:03.560 Yeah, And then okay, and so then the essence is like what it 779 01:09:03.800 --> 01:09:08.760 is? Correct, essence answers the question of what a thing is. Person 780 01:09:08.880 --> 01:09:13.760 answers the question of who. Yeah, and then so the energies are how 781 01:09:13.880 --> 01:09:17.479 we know the person's how we know the Yeah. So letter two thirty four, 782 01:09:17.600 --> 01:09:21.880 Basil says what God's essence says we know not but what he is. 783 01:09:23.760 --> 01:09:27.119 The energies come down to us to give us a personal revelation of God. 784 01:09:27.159 --> 01:09:31.680 Correct. Yeah, Yeah, I think a lot of the Yeah, it's 785 01:09:31.720 --> 01:09:35.479 like I saw something of like a Catholic saying that, you know, puts 786 01:09:35.479 --> 01:09:39.640 the best argument against Basil two thirty four. It's like, are we like 787 01:09:39.840 --> 01:09:45.159 making arguments against the exactly? Yeah. The Catholic approach is, let's reinterpret 788 01:09:45.199 --> 01:09:48.640 that to be not a real distinction. And yet Basil himself says that the 789 01:09:48.680 --> 01:09:54.199 distinction between essence and energy is as real and the same as a distinction between 790 01:09:54.239 --> 01:10:00.600 father and son. So Romancolics are argument against their own trinitarian the loss because 791 01:10:00.640 --> 01:10:03.640 Roalanchalics just simply don't read them, and they're not even aware that constantinople one 792 01:10:03.800 --> 01:10:09.520 is where the trinity comes from, which is Cappadocian theology. Yeah, and 793 01:10:09.600 --> 01:10:12.920 so then they would have a more Augustinian Yeah, they just yeah, exactly 794 01:10:13.119 --> 01:10:19.439 correct Aristotelian, which first takes the the Aristotle God of actors purists right, 795 01:10:19.600 --> 01:10:24.600 and then tries to throw in the triad. No. I think it's more 796 01:10:24.680 --> 01:10:31.199 so neoplatonism because the definition of divine simplicity that Augustine and Origin uses from plotonis 797 01:10:31.239 --> 01:10:36.039 they both use the same definition, and so that's what causes the modal collapse 798 01:10:36.119 --> 01:10:41.880 ads problems, and then all the struggling that for example, Augustine has in 799 01:10:41.960 --> 01:10:45.399 confessions with how God could be in time, or how God could do different 800 01:10:45.439 --> 01:10:47.640 actions, how God could rest in Genesis one on the seventh day, all 801 01:10:47.680 --> 01:10:51.800 of those things Augustin himself says he struggles with because his definition of simplicity is 802 01:10:53.119 --> 01:10:59.800 the metaphysics of Plotinus. So that same problem is throughout Latin theology and tranitarian 803 01:10:59.800 --> 01:11:04.920 they all the way up into Aquinas, who also adopts a lot of Neoplatonism. 804 01:11:05.880 --> 01:11:10.079 The Ariscitilianism isn't the central issue. I mean it could be. It 805 01:11:10.159 --> 01:11:14.840 really just depends on which person, which theologian is fleshing this out. There's 806 01:11:14.960 --> 01:11:18.439 multiple things going on. An absolutely designed, simple God, right, he 807 01:11:18.520 --> 01:11:24.880 didn't believe that God had potency. Well, it's yeah, it's a different 808 01:11:24.960 --> 01:11:30.279 account of what is meant by simplicity. So Aristotle and Plato have similarities when 809 01:11:30.319 --> 01:11:33.520 it comes to the monad. If you read Bradshaw's book Aristotle, East and 810 01:11:33.560 --> 01:11:41.680 West, the first three chapters discusses similarities and divergences. For example, Aristotle 811 01:11:41.720 --> 01:11:45.479 seems to think that there are ideas in the first mover as well, which 812 01:11:45.560 --> 01:11:50.239 sounds platonic. So it really just depends on how precise we want to get. 813 01:11:50.359 --> 01:11:56.399 But there are places where Aquinas, for example, is pretty clear in 814 01:11:56.560 --> 01:12:01.520 describing divine simplicity as pure suality with no potentiality at all. So there's no 815 01:12:01.720 --> 01:12:06.359 mixed potentiality. Uh, it's not. It's it's just pure act. That's 816 01:12:06.439 --> 01:12:12.119 it. And so would the would the energies we have some type of potency? 817 01:12:12.239 --> 01:12:17.319 I right, So the the the answer of if you read it's it's 818 01:12:17.359 --> 01:12:23.680 a difference between first and second act. So if you read this book Essence 819 01:12:23.720 --> 01:12:27.239 and Energies, being and naming in God and Saint Gregor Palamas, it's the 820 01:12:27.479 --> 01:12:30.920 it's the difference between first and second act. And that's actually from the Cappadocians 821 01:12:30.239 --> 01:12:34.239 so when the Cappadocians are that again, so I can write that there that's 822 01:12:34.319 --> 01:12:40.520 the difference between first and second Act from Aristonta, the book, the book 823 01:12:42.439 --> 01:12:47.840 Essence and Energies, Being and Naming in God and Gregor Palamas by tekon Pino. 824 01:12:49.279 --> 01:12:55.399 Okay, So there are times when, for example, John Damascus says 825 01:12:55.600 --> 01:13:00.279 God is pure act and Maximus says this in the first five pages of the 826 01:13:00.319 --> 01:13:04.560 two inner chapters, but Roman Calviox sees that and they quote it out of 827 01:13:04.600 --> 01:13:10.760 context, as if the discussion is a reductionist move to define the essence of 828 01:13:10.800 --> 01:13:14.159 God is pure act if you read, if you read the first five pages 829 01:13:14.560 --> 01:13:17.279 of the two interred chapters, Maximus says, there's two different ways that we 830 01:13:17.359 --> 01:13:20.800 speak of God. We speak of God in himself and we speak of God 831 01:13:20.840 --> 01:13:25.199 in relation to and in contrast to creatures. He says, when we call 832 01:13:25.279 --> 01:13:28.279 God, when we call God first act, we are not saying that his 833 01:13:28.439 --> 01:13:30.159 essence are excuse me, when we call God pure act, we are not 834 01:13:30.359 --> 01:13:34.119 defining his essence as pure actuality, he says. We are saying, in 835 01:13:34.279 --> 01:13:40.960 contrast to creatures, God is not acted upon, not composed, not changing, 836 01:13:41.039 --> 01:13:45.479 et cetera. So there's a distinction in the way that we use pure 837 01:13:45.520 --> 01:13:47.680 act of God, and the same thing in John Damasca is on the Orthodox 838 01:13:47.720 --> 01:13:56.279 faith. Every Orthodox person knows that you cannot collapse God's essence into act or 839 01:13:56.279 --> 01:13:59.520 excuse me, God's action is into essence, right, That would be the 840 01:13:59.640 --> 01:14:03.319 denial of everything. Paul must argues, Yeah, but you have people out 841 01:14:03.319 --> 01:14:06.760 there, by the way, in the Orthodox so called world who also pushed 842 01:14:06.840 --> 01:14:11.560 this because they either don't know what they're talking about our or they're openly pushing 843 01:14:11.640 --> 01:14:14.800 for a humanist reagnion with Rome and they want to get rid of the idea 844 01:14:14.800 --> 01:14:16.199 of the S and center. You stinction, so kind of like fed, 845 01:14:17.520 --> 01:14:21.880 I think some of these people are fed. Yeah, yeah, okay, 846 01:14:23.800 --> 01:14:27.800 so yeah, I mean I think I've kind of gone through a lot of 847 01:14:27.880 --> 01:14:30.640 this stuff, watched a lot of your stuff, and I mean I was 848 01:14:30.720 --> 01:14:33.159 going at it originally from a Catholic Like when I first I first saw the 849 01:14:34.319 --> 01:14:40.399 you and Trent Horn talking. Yeah, maybe maybe it wasn't that, but 850 01:14:40.479 --> 01:14:44.840 at some point where you said like God, Like the first time I heard 851 01:14:44.840 --> 01:14:47.000 about the energies, I was like, that's like retarding, because there can't 852 01:14:47.039 --> 01:14:50.680 be some other thing, you know, in God. Besides, like just 853 01:14:50.800 --> 01:14:57.119 a like, it seemed to contradict God's oneness. Like the more you realize, 854 01:14:58.560 --> 01:15:05.479 like the God of the Christians in the first millennium is not the Aristotle 855 01:15:05.760 --> 01:15:12.000 right, pure Aristotle's God, to make this very simple, cannot be incarnate. 856 01:15:13.600 --> 01:15:15.520 Yeah, there's no such thing as a second hype of stasis in pure 857 01:15:15.600 --> 01:15:18.840 act that could come into time and space. And every one of the Roman 858 01:15:18.880 --> 01:15:25.119 Catholics who argues their position philosophically and metaphysically will tell you that this thing that 859 01:15:25.199 --> 01:15:28.319 they're describing isn't in time and space, cannot be in time and space. 860 01:15:28.520 --> 01:15:30.760 Oh, good job, you just canceled out the incarnation. Good job. 861 01:15:31.159 --> 01:15:34.960 And then they then they try to tack on this other contradictory system of incarnation 862 01:15:35.439 --> 01:15:41.319 down the road, as if their metaphysics can be totally different from their Christology. 863 01:15:41.319 --> 01:15:45.399 It's just stupid, and it's not the way that the councils define the 864 01:15:45.479 --> 01:15:49.560 triad and Christology. So the real way to understand the essence entergy sinction, 865 01:15:49.720 --> 01:15:53.760 which nobody ever listens to me when I've been saying this for like six years, 866 01:15:54.039 --> 01:15:58.199 is Christology. Rea John Damascus, Book three. The majority of the 867 01:15:58.279 --> 01:16:02.760 Usen's inergy sinction discussion is not about the trinity. It's in Christology. And 868 01:16:02.880 --> 01:16:06.920 if you take all of the essenceentitgy distinction denials of Roman Catholics and apply it 869 01:16:08.000 --> 01:16:12.079 to Christology, you see how whack and stupid their system actually is. And 870 01:16:12.159 --> 01:16:15.239 they don't even realize because none of them actually go and read John Damascus that 871 01:16:15.399 --> 01:16:19.239 the entirety of book three fifteen on is all essence synergy distinction discussion. And 872 01:16:19.359 --> 01:16:24.439 if you deny this, your whole Christology collapses and it's whack. But they 873 01:16:24.479 --> 01:16:27.039 don't care. They don't They don't even listen to anything from the first thousand 874 01:16:27.079 --> 01:16:30.720 years anyway. So yeah, and then it's like Thomas Thomas has a thing, 875 01:16:30.079 --> 01:16:33.520 you know, against John of Damascus, and then he cites mimon eighties. 876 01:16:33.640 --> 01:16:38.520 Yeah, his response to why there's no essence sentergy distinction in Dave Veritate 877 01:16:38.680 --> 01:16:42.600 is because mimon Id says anything that's simple cannot have distinctions. Yeah, that 878 01:16:42.600 --> 01:16:47.119 would also deny the trinity, dummy, Yeah, exactly right. So I 879 01:16:47.119 --> 01:16:49.279 would also say, uh, you know, there's a lot on this. 880 01:16:50.279 --> 01:16:57.319 David Bradshaw's recent book Divine Energies and Divine Action has been published, And this 881 01:16:57.479 --> 01:17:00.880 is really all the essays that we are constantly sharing with people, all the 882 01:17:00.960 --> 01:17:03.000 PDFs that are hard to find, they've all been collected in the one book. 883 01:17:03.079 --> 01:17:06.239 So I definitely recommend getting that book because it's a landmark on this. 884 01:17:08.000 --> 01:17:11.159 So again all of these, by the way, even easier way to see 885 01:17:11.199 --> 01:17:15.680 this is again the Eucharist. What did we just see with what's his face? 886 01:17:15.920 --> 01:17:16.880 The other day? AJ? By the way, I didn't realize AJ 887 01:17:17.840 --> 01:17:20.960 is a football dude. He's like a famous football bro. Did y'all know 888 01:17:21.079 --> 01:17:27.840 that AJ who was on here right here at this AJ bro, Tim's buddy, 889 01:17:30.239 --> 01:17:33.720 Aj' is like some superstar, was like a college football superstar bro. 890 01:17:34.439 --> 01:17:39.520 So anyway, I apologize. I wasn't meaning to be rude or dismissive. 891 01:17:39.560 --> 01:17:43.840 I didn't actually know that AJ was like a college football star guy. But 892 01:17:44.039 --> 01:17:45.319 anyway, he has a really fascinating story. If you go watch all like 893 01:17:45.399 --> 01:17:51.159 the ESPN clips of of his his family. He and his brother were both 894 01:17:51.199 --> 01:17:55.159 going to play football and then something happened, I think to his brother health 895 01:17:55.199 --> 01:17:59.079 wise. So it's a really fascinating story. And I didn't even realize that 896 01:17:59.159 --> 01:18:05.479 that's who that got was. So but in that discussion with aj we got 897 01:18:05.560 --> 01:18:11.159 to this point on the real presence, right, and that the the point 898 01:18:11.479 --> 01:18:14.960 is that the real presence is really like one of the best ways to see 899 01:18:15.479 --> 01:18:19.520 the essence energy distinction, because no Roman Catholic thinks that you're eating the essence 900 01:18:19.560 --> 01:18:24.439 of God. And really they but they all want they all want to say, 901 01:18:24.560 --> 01:18:29.119 well, the real presence must mean uh, you know, participating in 902 01:18:29.199 --> 01:18:31.319 divinity, body, blood, soul and divinity. Right, that's the thing 903 01:18:31.359 --> 01:18:34.199 they always say, yeah, exactly, So what's the divinity there if it's 904 01:18:34.239 --> 01:18:38.680 not the essence of God? Well, Ludwig, God tells us that it's 905 01:18:38.720 --> 01:18:46.000 a created accident apparently. Yeah, but you understand that. Newsflash, it's 906 01:18:46.119 --> 01:18:51.079 already been defined for you guys. It's called Ephesus. It's Saint Cyril, 907 01:18:53.000 --> 01:18:55.520 and he says, you do not partake of the essence of God and the 908 01:18:55.560 --> 01:19:01.119 Eucharist, partake of the uncreated energies and immortality. And this is in the 909 01:19:01.199 --> 01:19:05.119 first and second letter to six Census. So if you go read the first 910 01:19:05.119 --> 01:19:09.560 and second letters to six Census, which are online, but nobody ever knows. 911 01:19:09.640 --> 01:19:11.560 They're just lazy. They don't go read this stuff. They don't care 912 01:19:13.199 --> 01:19:16.279 it tells you that it's not the essence of God, it's not a creature. 913 01:19:17.319 --> 01:19:21.640 A creature can't make us participate in divine life. That's Arianism. If 914 01:19:21.720 --> 01:19:27.359 Christ is just another creature and he just gives us another creation, as Paulomas 915 01:19:27.399 --> 01:19:31.000 says to Barlem, then we're all just arians. There's nothing we're essentially wrong 916 01:19:31.039 --> 01:19:38.239 with what Area said. I don't need another created status. I need uncreated 917 01:19:38.319 --> 01:19:45.319 life and immortality. Yes, by the way, doctor Bradshaw is super cool 918 01:19:45.359 --> 01:19:48.319 if you meet him in person. I got to head then. We had 919 01:19:48.359 --> 01:19:51.199 a couple of meals when we were at a conference. We had a breakfast 920 01:19:51.239 --> 01:19:55.399 together, and I might have even I don't remember if I sat with him 921 01:19:55.399 --> 01:20:00.039 at a dinner or something maybe, but I have had some good conversations with 922 01:20:02.319 --> 01:20:08.079 with him. I mean in person, like he's cool in persons. What 923 01:20:08.119 --> 01:20:15.560 I'm trying to say anyway, But I've shared this like a million times and 924 01:20:15.680 --> 01:20:17.840 it gets old because people just don't even just I don't know if it doesn't 925 01:20:17.880 --> 01:20:20.600 register or what. Let me see if I can find this tweet, let's 926 01:20:20.600 --> 01:20:36.239 say, Cyril Eucharist. I probably won't be able to find this from No, 927 01:20:36.319 --> 01:20:45.399 I'm not gonna be able to find it right now anyway, must see 928 01:20:45.640 --> 01:20:50.359 flap says one dollar, and says I expect the SMP to peek at five 929 01:20:50.600 --> 01:20:59.000 five one hundred before bitcoin at h When it hits around eighty, then the 930 01:20:59.479 --> 01:21:03.720 FED will it cautioning a recession. They're planning on a twenty twenty four de 931 01:21:03.920 --> 01:21:11.720 risking. I'm envisioning a twenty twenty five bull market. However, how could 932 01:21:11.760 --> 01:21:15.119 cyberpolygon impact banking and crypto? Yeah, I mean those are all really you 933 01:21:15.159 --> 01:21:18.920 know, difficult questions. It seems like a cyber polygon if it happened, 934 01:21:18.960 --> 01:21:24.000 it would be to like to justify. Oh, now we need to go 935 01:21:24.039 --> 01:21:26.680 over to fed coin. Now we need to shut down all this stuff. 936 01:21:26.800 --> 01:21:30.279 Right, but again, who knows? Bmax nineteen sixty six ten bucks, 937 01:21:30.319 --> 01:21:33.079 Thank you so much, the real Eric Obara three dollars. I'm guessing that 938 01:21:33.199 --> 01:21:38.319 this might not be the real Eric Barro. Jay Dyer is the man who 939 01:21:38.560 --> 01:21:43.399 lacks all nuance and perspective. He's a big baby and he can't handle any 940 01:21:43.640 --> 01:21:47.039 invective. Now wait a minute, Eric, I'm the one that always makes 941 01:21:47.159 --> 01:21:51.399 jokes, and you're the one that said that people on the internet were being 942 01:21:51.479 --> 01:21:57.920 mean to you. Quote making internet cartoon strips of you. So again not 943 01:21:58.039 --> 01:22:02.159 even knowing what a meme is. Eric Obarrow got his feelings hurt twenty eighteen 944 01:22:02.199 --> 01:22:08.960 because people made memes about him, which he called quote internet cartoon strips, 945 01:22:11.520 --> 01:22:15.600 Jay, you can't handle this and the petite pink pajamas of silk that you 946 01:22:15.760 --> 01:22:26.199 wear. You slip on those. Yes, you jealously watch Taylor Marshall suck 947 01:22:26.399 --> 01:22:30.000 Tristana's and gorged milkers. That was a wild super chat. I have to 948 01:22:30.039 --> 01:22:33.680 admit the real Ericabarrow one dollar. You constantly go against the pope, and 949 01:22:33.720 --> 01:22:42.279 you forget the trauma at the time that he dropped the soap Unable to withstand 950 01:22:42.399 --> 01:22:46.960 carbohydrate Lofton's Katana swings, you were forced to shriek back and poorly sing. 951 01:22:47.880 --> 01:22:53.239 Correct, that's what it's called cringe core. Eric ac drops forty bucks. 952 01:22:53.239 --> 01:22:55.399 Thank you so much. Ac. Why do you need to know the law 953 01:22:55.399 --> 01:22:59.479 of identity to tell people about ultimate reality and worldviews? Exactly right. So, 954 01:22:59.560 --> 01:23:04.760 going back to the quote debate, I wouldn't call the debate with Derek 955 01:23:05.640 --> 01:23:13.680 myth Vision. Derek Mythvision, guys, there's two hundred thousand plus people that 956 01:23:13.920 --> 01:23:24.840 follow a channel called Derek myth vision and the channel is devoted to exposing Christianity, 957 01:23:26.560 --> 01:23:30.479 and within two minutes of asking questions about his epistemic criteria, he had 958 01:23:30.600 --> 01:23:39.319 a fit. So you guys can go watch that amusing the interaction where they 959 01:23:39.359 --> 01:23:43.600 said I was a mean man just simply for asking what the basis to believe 960 01:23:43.640 --> 01:23:46.399 in their epistemic criteria was volunteer three dollars and seventy two cents. Jay, 961 01:23:46.399 --> 01:23:49.439 what are your thoughts about Dugan? I've done many podcasts on Dugan, I've 962 01:23:49.439 --> 01:23:54.800 covered it many many times. I just started reading forth political theory. I 963 01:23:55.039 --> 01:23:58.760 disagree with the Gnostic chapter in the background or in the back, the very 964 01:23:58.840 --> 01:24:03.079 last chapter sam sua ten dollars. Can God be timeless and changing? No? 965 01:24:03.199 --> 01:24:09.119 God does not undergo change, but he is able to do different things. 966 01:24:09.159 --> 01:24:13.079 And the reason we believe that is because we accept it on the basis 967 01:24:13.079 --> 01:24:16.479 of divine revelation. So, for example, we see the manifestation of his 968 01:24:17.199 --> 01:24:23.239 Theophanes doing different things, coming and going in time and space right, So 969 01:24:23.359 --> 01:24:26.680 the cloud and the sea, the fire right, all these theophanies that we 970 01:24:26.720 --> 01:24:31.199 see throughout the Old Testament, they're described as really divinity, and we're told 971 01:24:31.199 --> 01:24:35.760 that God does different things in time and space. So in some way, 972 01:24:36.680 --> 01:24:43.840 because God is above the antinomis some theologians say of stasis and change, time 973 01:24:43.920 --> 01:24:46.720 and eternity, God can appear to do things that don't make sense to us 974 01:24:46.960 --> 01:24:53.319 according to our vantage point. So although we don't think that God undergoes change, 975 01:24:54.399 --> 01:24:59.760 there is, for example, God's condescension to engage in reciprocity with human 976 01:24:59.800 --> 01:25:02.840 beings, and doctor Bradshaw covers this in one of his great essays. So 977 01:25:02.960 --> 01:25:06.079 does that mean that God undergoes change because he wills to answer our prayers? 978 01:25:06.800 --> 01:25:12.720 Does he undergo change because he engaged in the in kenosis? Well, he 979 01:25:12.960 --> 01:25:16.079 chose not to exercise all of his attributes or powers when he became an infant, 980 01:25:16.479 --> 01:25:21.399 when he entered into the canotic state, So does that mean he underwent 981 01:25:21.520 --> 01:25:26.039 change. Well, if a strict act is purest definition of God is at 982 01:25:26.119 --> 01:25:29.119 work, then yes, he had to do something. If he does something 983 01:25:29.159 --> 01:25:32.279 different than he underwent change, because that's no longer pure act, that's doing 984 01:25:32.359 --> 01:25:38.319 a different act. Pure act is one perpetual, eternal act. To do 985 01:25:38.439 --> 01:25:42.720 something different is a different act. Okay, it's not rocket science, it's 986 01:25:42.880 --> 01:25:47.359 just what you guys yourselves defined as Okay, and Aja was totally incorrect when 987 01:25:47.359 --> 01:25:53.199 he said there's sub acts beneath pure act and totally not true. Not Atonism, 988 01:25:54.000 --> 01:25:57.520 not in scholastic philosophy. Okay, that's more like what we say, 989 01:26:00.399 --> 01:26:05.079 how can God prevent a murder but also allow one? I don't understand that 990 01:26:05.199 --> 01:26:10.560 question. So God can create a world where beings are secondary causes and have 991 01:26:10.680 --> 01:26:15.840 the ability to affect their own causal actions. So it sounds I mean, 992 01:26:15.880 --> 01:26:17.119 I don't know what your position is, Sam, but it sounds like a 993 01:26:17.199 --> 01:26:23.239 kind of a predestinarian Calvinist position where God has to be the direct cause of 994 01:26:23.319 --> 01:26:28.880 every event. So we think that God could create a world where beings themselves 995 01:26:28.920 --> 01:26:31.520 are what we call secondary causes. So God is the first cause. He's 996 01:26:31.560 --> 01:26:35.159 the creator of the universe. He sustains it, he preserves it, He 997 01:26:35.560 --> 01:26:41.079 is there present in an energetic way in the universe. Contrary to what Muslims 998 01:26:41.079 --> 01:26:44.119 say, Muslims don't believe God is present in time and space. And this 999 01:26:44.279 --> 01:26:46.199 is also, by the way, why Muslims don't believe in incarnation. So 1000 01:26:46.479 --> 01:26:50.119 notice Roman Catholics, when you do your metaphysics, you argue the same thing 1001 01:26:50.159 --> 01:26:56.159 that Muslims are you right, God is absolutely simple, pure act blah blah 1002 01:26:56.199 --> 01:26:59.199 blah blah blah. I'm saying, they argue, in this kind of way. 1003 01:26:59.359 --> 01:27:01.840 God is perfect, all the Muslims say. And if he's perfect, 1004 01:27:01.920 --> 01:27:04.800 he can't change or do something different, or undergo change or enter into time 1005 01:27:04.840 --> 01:27:11.399 and space because now he's no longer perfect because he's entered into the domain of 1006 01:27:11.600 --> 01:27:15.039 flux and change. Muslims argue, Roman Catholics, did you hear me? 1007 01:27:16.000 --> 01:27:19.000 So Muslims are more consistent than you, because then you turn around and say 1008 01:27:19.079 --> 01:27:24.600 with us that the second hypostasis entered into time and space and walks around and 1009 01:27:24.680 --> 01:27:31.039 does things while you have the same metaphysics of a Muslim that an absolutely simple, 1010 01:27:31.119 --> 01:27:33.720 pure act thing can't be in time and space. I mean, how 1011 01:27:33.760 --> 01:27:39.119 do you guys not see this? I mean literally? In Phaser's chapter on 1012 01:27:39.319 --> 01:27:44.319 the Neoplatonic argument for classical theism, he says, the one cannot be in 1013 01:27:44.399 --> 01:27:47.000 time and space, then how are you a Christian? And by the way, 1014 01:27:47.239 --> 01:27:49.560 in that very book, Phaser goes on to argue that it's time to 1015 01:27:49.640 --> 01:27:54.840 give up the idea of creation x Nelo in Apologetics Exactly so, now you 1016 01:27:55.000 --> 01:28:01.720 go back, You're going to Greek philosophy, not Christianity. What use is 1017 01:28:01.800 --> 01:28:10.239 all of these five quote classical theist proofs If they're proving demonic heretical positions, 1018 01:28:10.279 --> 01:28:14.159 it's so stupid. I'm not saying that Phaser is stupid. He's not. 1019 01:28:14.319 --> 01:28:17.600 He's very smart. He's smarter than me and knows these philosophy is better. 1020 01:28:18.159 --> 01:28:27.359 But you can be smart and be wrong. All right. I forgot that 1021 01:28:27.439 --> 01:28:30.520 we're doing open the form here. So we got a bunch of people, 1022 01:28:30.880 --> 01:28:38.399 uh, stacked up trying to find like the most Let's see who's going to 1023 01:28:38.439 --> 01:28:42.479 be sassy. Here we go. We've got some sassy names. Garfield, 1024 01:28:43.199 --> 01:28:45.560 Garfield, what's up? Garfield? Now? Look, if you if you 1025 01:28:45.600 --> 01:28:53.479 don't talk about the topics, it's immediate boot. Hello, Yeah, what's 1026 01:28:53.520 --> 01:28:59.600 up? Hi Jay? Just quick one. So when we talk about christ 1027 01:29:00.520 --> 01:29:05.520 divinity, when he manifest in time and space, we are we saying that 1028 01:29:06.239 --> 01:29:15.399 the energies of prison in his body. Yes, so that's epicist. So 1029 01:29:15.560 --> 01:29:19.840 the human flesh is what is infused with energies? Would you say? Yes, 1030 01:29:19.920 --> 01:29:24.960 that's the definition of the Six Council, that the humanity of Christ is 1031 01:29:25.199 --> 01:29:30.159 fully deified via the uncreated energies, which John Damascus says are communicated to his 1032 01:29:30.319 --> 01:29:35.640 humanity. So it's the divine hypostasis of the Son in a personal, energetic 1033 01:29:35.760 --> 01:29:42.680 way, walking around and doing things and deifying and whatnot. Right, Okay, 1034 01:29:43.079 --> 01:29:45.359 guys from the clip, right, So it's not the Father, it's 1035 01:29:45.359 --> 01:29:47.399 not the Holy Spirit, it's not the divine Essence that's incarnate. It's the 1036 01:29:47.520 --> 01:29:56.000 second person of the Godhead incarnate and the essence communicates to the energies. Well, 1037 01:29:56.520 --> 01:30:00.439 it's not the essence doing, because persons do. Persons have essence, 1038 01:30:00.720 --> 01:30:04.319 right, Persons act, not essence. Essence doesn't act. Persons act. 1039 01:30:04.680 --> 01:30:09.279 So the Father acts to send the Son. The Son acts in time and 1040 01:30:09.359 --> 01:30:13.800 space to be incarnate and to then send us the Spirit for example. So 1041 01:30:14.159 --> 01:30:16.479 it's every action is triadic, but each person in the trinity has a unique 1042 01:30:16.560 --> 01:30:21.399 role in that one act. So the action of incarnation, for example, 1043 01:30:21.520 --> 01:30:26.600 that's from the Father, the Son takes on the human nature and then sends 1044 01:30:26.640 --> 01:30:29.399 the Holy Spirit. So does that make sense? Like the mission of the 1045 01:30:29.520 --> 01:30:31.880 Son is a triadic thing, but each person is unique in that in that 1046 01:30:32.680 --> 01:30:40.239 incarnation. Yeah, No, I'm just struggling to try to relate the relationship 1047 01:30:40.239 --> 01:30:44.640 between the nature and the energies. Right. So nature is what we say 1048 01:30:44.920 --> 01:30:47.760 in hypostatic That just means that it exists in the mode of the person that 1049 01:30:47.880 --> 01:30:51.760 has the nature. So I'm the person Jay, You're the person Bob. 1050 01:30:53.199 --> 01:30:56.479 We both share a common nature. You have human nature. I have human 1051 01:30:56.560 --> 01:31:00.319 nature. But what makes it unique is that I have human nature in the 1052 01:31:00.439 --> 01:31:03.960 unique mode of the person J that has that nature, and J is not 1053 01:31:04.359 --> 01:31:11.079 reducible to or isomorphically identical to human nature. Right, It's a both and 1054 01:31:11.359 --> 01:31:14.359 so it's you share the same nature, body, mind, soul, will, 1055 01:31:14.560 --> 01:31:16.560 but you have it in a unique way as Bob. I have it 1056 01:31:16.640 --> 01:31:20.479 in a unique way as J. That's the nature person distinction. I'm the 1057 01:31:20.560 --> 01:31:27.680 person Jay, the hypostasis, Jay that has the nature of Adam's nature. 1058 01:31:27.760 --> 01:31:30.640 You have Adam's nature, but you have it in a unique mode as that 1059 01:31:30.800 --> 01:31:32.880 person. The only difference between us and the trinity, Well, there's many 1060 01:31:32.880 --> 01:31:36.600 differences, but one difference is that the trinity are not distinct beings. They 1061 01:31:36.640 --> 01:31:43.039 are one being in nature. They interpenetrate and dwell in one another. But 1062 01:31:43.119 --> 01:31:46.199 there are three distinct type of stasies that have that single nature So the Father 1063 01:31:46.439 --> 01:31:50.079 uniquely has the divine nature as the person of the Father. The son uniquely 1064 01:31:50.159 --> 01:31:54.319 has the divine nature as the person of the son. The spirit uniquely has 1065 01:31:54.359 --> 01:31:57.039 the divine nature as the person's spirit. So all of that is again just 1066 01:31:57.319 --> 01:32:05.000 that fancy word in hypostatized just means exists in the mode of So Christ's divine 1067 01:32:05.079 --> 01:32:12.239 nature is present in his person. Correct. Yes, that isn't identical to 1068 01:32:12.319 --> 01:32:17.600 the essence. No, it's the same thing. But Christ doesn't become incarnate 1069 01:32:17.720 --> 01:32:21.880 to show us or reveal us the divinity directly. The only thing that we 1070 01:32:23.079 --> 01:32:28.079 know or experience of God is the personal energies that he uses and reveals. 1071 01:32:28.279 --> 01:32:30.800 So that's why if you read letter two thirty four at Basil, Basil says 1072 01:32:31.479 --> 01:32:34.000 what the essence of God is, we do not know, but the energies 1073 01:32:34.039 --> 01:32:36.680 come down to us, and the same thing would apply to the incarnation. 1074 01:32:36.840 --> 01:32:41.560 The energies are present in Christ revealing the divinity to us. This is why 1075 01:32:41.680 --> 01:32:48.680 on Mount Sinai it's the Logos who's there present, interacting with Moses right in 1076 01:32:48.760 --> 01:32:51.119 a personal face to face a way, as Paul says, And the second 1077 01:32:51.119 --> 01:32:57.119 manthing is three and in John five to nine, it's Moses interacting with the 1078 01:32:57.920 --> 01:33:00.359 you know, burning bush and the angel will lord there and eating with him. 1079 01:33:00.840 --> 01:33:04.840 But it's not the divine essence. There's still an aspect to God which 1080 01:33:04.960 --> 01:33:10.239 is never revealed, never shown to us. And we see that, for 1081 01:33:10.319 --> 01:33:13.399 example in John and Isaiah's six, where it says, you know, the 1082 01:33:14.159 --> 01:33:18.640 seraphim have to cover their eyes, right because creaturely beings never see or comprehend 1083 01:33:18.720 --> 01:33:25.880 the divine essence. And that's because God is forever both transcendent and imminent. 1084 01:33:26.199 --> 01:33:30.560 So we don't fall on either side of this dialectic like Muslims do to say 1085 01:33:30.600 --> 01:33:33.000 that God is only transcendent, right, Muslims say God is never eminent, 1086 01:33:33.039 --> 01:33:36.359 even though they contradict because they think that the Koran is an eternal Koran in 1087 01:33:36.439 --> 01:33:41.640 time and space, which is a contradiction. But still God is not just 1088 01:33:41.760 --> 01:33:45.760 transcendent or beyond or whatever. He's also imminent. So how do we know 1089 01:33:45.960 --> 01:33:48.800 or what's the way that we would describe him as imminent? Well, the 1090 01:33:48.880 --> 01:33:54.079 New Testament, following the Old Testament itself, uses a description of the inner 1091 01:33:54.159 --> 01:33:58.760 gaea, So energies is not something invented by Palamos. It's from Paul and 1092 01:33:58.840 --> 01:34:02.880 it's from the subtuagen the inner gaia of God are his operations, powers, 1093 01:34:03.199 --> 01:34:13.800 attributes that he reveals to us and and energies. They're not synonymous, which 1094 01:34:13.840 --> 01:34:17.000 is actions are they like the Greek the Greek term they're actually sort of have 1095 01:34:17.079 --> 01:34:26.479 a have like a metaphysical existence to some extent. Well it Energies can describe 1096 01:34:26.560 --> 01:34:30.439 different things, even in God. So for example, God's omnipotence is an 1097 01:34:30.560 --> 01:34:36.079 energy. God's actions are called energies or operations in Basils. So most of 1098 01:34:36.079 --> 01:34:40.960 the time when when Basil Acabadocians use the term like and when Basil uses it 1099 01:34:41.119 --> 01:34:46.159 in against eunomias, it's typically operations. So whatever, when for example, 1100 01:34:46.319 --> 01:34:51.279 uh, Christ walking on water, that would be an operation proper to his 1101 01:34:51.399 --> 01:34:58.840 divine power, right, But it's not. But there's different actions or operations 1102 01:34:58.880 --> 01:35:01.800 that God does, such as as creating a world. So creating a world 1103 01:35:01.920 --> 01:35:05.159 is a divine action, is proper to God's divinity to create a world, 1104 01:35:05.880 --> 01:35:09.760 but it's not the same thing as walking on water. They're clearly obviously two 1105 01:35:09.800 --> 01:35:14.199 different actions. So does that help? But then that we speak of the 1106 01:35:14.239 --> 01:35:17.680 logi or the divine ideas, those are also a type of energy. According 1107 01:35:17.720 --> 01:35:23.720 to Palomos, Yes, yeah, I mean yeah, I've got some thinking 1108 01:35:23.800 --> 01:35:28.079 to do, but thanks, Yeah, absolutely great questions. Appreciate those. 1109 01:35:32.000 --> 01:35:34.520 Yeah, I would say again, you know, go go if you want 1110 01:35:34.560 --> 01:35:39.039 to watch the lecture that we did, lecturing through the Totality of on the 1111 01:35:39.119 --> 01:35:44.479 Orthodox Faith by John Damascus. You know, there's extensive energy discussions in those 1112 01:35:44.560 --> 01:35:51.640 talks. So I will have a show here in a little bit with with 1113 01:35:51.800 --> 01:35:55.119 Tristan, So I might have to get off quick. I'm going to try 1114 01:35:55.159 --> 01:35:59.319 to pick some good ones here. But I want to remind everybody too that 1115 01:35:59.439 --> 01:36:01.159 the show spawned is Chalk dot com. Head on over to Chalk dot com. 1116 01:36:01.279 --> 01:36:04.720 Use promo go Ja fifty to get fifty percent off the tongkat Alie. 1117 01:36:04.880 --> 01:36:10.159 That's my favorite testosterone boosting supplement they have over there. 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Senna, 1127 01:36:46.520 --> 01:37:02.239 what's up? Senna? Cinnebun? What's up? Oh? Hi? I 1128 01:37:02.359 --> 01:37:10.760 had a question. Actually, I was wondering because a lot of Christians seem 1129 01:37:10.960 --> 01:37:17.680 to have rules about how to go about courting. But is there anything specifically 1130 01:37:17.760 --> 01:37:27.920 in the Bible that that basically sets out these rules that they do or is 1131 01:37:28.000 --> 01:37:35.239 it just attributed to things that they think align with their values. That's a 1132 01:37:35.279 --> 01:37:38.560 good question. I mean, I think in the you know, if you 1133 01:37:38.640 --> 01:37:42.920 really like proverbs, there's kind of like loose ideas of what courtship would be. 1134 01:37:43.199 --> 01:37:45.920 And and you know that's the ancient medieval world. A lot of marriages 1135 01:37:45.960 --> 01:37:51.439 were arranged back then. So I think that as you know, Western society 1136 01:37:51.479 --> 01:37:59.800 and civilization progressed past the period of romantic love the medieval courtly tradition, that 1137 01:38:00.119 --> 01:38:06.479 really change things out of the normativity of arranged marriages into marriages based on you 1138 01:38:06.560 --> 01:38:11.920 know, decision which should be there. I think I don't want to be 1139 01:38:11.960 --> 01:38:15.760 in an arranged marriage for sure. So but I mean there's not really like 1140 01:38:15.960 --> 01:38:23.039 explicit quote biblical arguments about courtship. I think it's just more of a more 1141 01:38:23.079 --> 01:38:26.159 of a traditional thing. I mean, it does seem to work better for 1142 01:38:27.960 --> 01:38:33.439 families in for people who are looking for marriage and family, courtship seems to 1143 01:38:33.520 --> 01:38:39.600 produce better fruits. But sometimes people get really crazy and legalistic with this, 1144 01:38:39.880 --> 01:38:44.319 and a lot of so called Christian heterodox circles where they try to enforce like 1145 01:38:44.960 --> 01:38:51.359 eighteen hundreds era, like you know, puritanical courtship, and it just leads 1146 01:38:51.399 --> 01:38:59.479 to nonsense because the expectations are so high and people can in ardy and time 1147 01:38:59.600 --> 01:39:02.960 can't match up to these crazy expert expectations, and it's just it just a 1148 01:39:03.039 --> 01:39:06.039 lot of deluded people out there in this whole domain. So I don't have 1149 01:39:06.119 --> 01:39:10.039 any answers. I'm sorry, why complex, He's been waiting for a long 1150 01:39:10.119 --> 01:39:15.920 time, what's up? I mean a lot of Calvinists do this courtship stuff 1151 01:39:15.920 --> 01:39:20.439 and it ends up being a big disaster. I've seen years of people having 1152 01:39:20.560 --> 01:39:27.079 disasters through Calvinists courtship stuff. So trad cats do it, I mean, 1153 01:39:27.279 --> 01:39:30.640 or some orthodox do it, and it can work. It's just that sometimes 1154 01:39:30.680 --> 01:39:36.960 it turns into this like almost like cult like thing where people get crazy with 1155 01:39:38.039 --> 01:39:41.359 it. So I don't know what the answer is why complex having a hard 1156 01:39:41.399 --> 01:39:45.239 time connecting guys. Remember we will be with Tristan here on my channel in 1157 01:39:45.279 --> 01:39:57.079 a little bit. A lot of people in here. I'm trying to pick 1158 01:39:58.399 --> 01:40:09.159 looking at different bios to see who who has like the most ugh, the 1159 01:40:09.279 --> 01:40:21.199 most likely interesting. I am a tennis ball. Now looks like it's kind 1160 01:40:21.199 --> 01:40:30.920 of just all trolls, So I don't know. Matthew Rooker, Matthew, 1161 01:40:30.960 --> 01:40:45.560 what's up? Matthew choose wisely. Zachary sends a dollar and says, I'm 1162 01:40:45.600 --> 01:40:48.439 Orthodox. Can you pray for me? I have a ls of the daughter 1163 01:40:48.520 --> 01:40:51.880 who's too Yeah, sorry to hear that, Zachary, or pray for what's 1164 01:40:51.960 --> 01:41:01.600 up? Matt Are you there? Yeah? I'm here? Yeah? What's 1165 01:41:01.680 --> 01:41:09.000 up? Can you hear me? Yes, sir, I'm just uh listening 1166 01:41:09.039 --> 01:41:16.159 to you for what he listened to you from all and I'm currently uh and 1167 01:41:18.880 --> 01:41:23.119 you're cutting out. Dude, I can't hear anything, so try maybe maybe 1168 01:41:23.199 --> 01:41:25.960 next time try to call back in. It's all it's cutting out. I 1169 01:41:25.960 --> 01:41:29.399 can't hear anything you're saying. I heard you say you listened, and that 1170 01:41:29.560 --> 01:41:36.840 was it. Somebody is saying Jack dangelis one dollar? What do you think 1171 01:41:36.840 --> 01:41:40.439 of Theodore's show bought? Would you invite him on the show? I mean, 1172 01:41:40.479 --> 01:41:43.479 I think he's like a one Peter five guy. I haven't I haven't 1173 01:41:43.520 --> 01:41:46.039 really paid attention. I'm not being rude. I just don't follow a lot 1174 01:41:46.079 --> 01:41:50.399 of the trackcat world. So when I have him on the show, maybe 1175 01:41:50.479 --> 01:41:54.880 I'm mean to see questioning room Patty ten Dollars. Jay's me and he keeps 1176 01:41:54.920 --> 01:41:59.960 asking me reasons for why I should believe his system. That's me exactly, 1177 01:42:00.640 --> 01:42:04.720 and Petty says he's joking. Keep up good work, Jonathan Miller ten dollars 1178 01:42:04.800 --> 01:42:09.880 go back on Tucker Carlson call me okay. I appreciate that, Jonathan Alula 1179 01:42:10.000 --> 01:42:12.840 ten dollars. I want to donate support. Don't have anything to say, 1180 01:42:12.960 --> 01:42:15.920 but you're my favorite philosopher. Well thanks, man, I appreciate that. 1181 01:42:16.000 --> 01:42:24.640 That's very kind of you. Let's see here, I'm trying to find somebody 1182 01:42:24.680 --> 01:42:30.640 who might be Maxfield, but so Tristan and are going to be covering Oliver 1183 01:42:30.720 --> 01:42:40.279 Stones. Wow Street, Wow Street here in a little bit. Hello, 1184 01:42:40.600 --> 01:42:51.199 Yes, sir, Hey Jay, I've been enjoying a lot of your talks 1185 01:42:51.239 --> 01:43:01.159 on the metaphysics behind Orthodox christian I was just wondering with regards to presuppositions, 1186 01:43:02.399 --> 01:43:09.319 there's to be one you're cutting out, dude. I'm sorry, I can't 1187 01:43:09.600 --> 01:43:16.760 understand anything. I can't understand anything, man. Sorry, Let's see, 1188 01:43:17.520 --> 01:43:21.159 I keep picking the worst, dude, not you as a person, not 1189 01:43:21.279 --> 01:43:27.199 you as a person, worst quality of connection. That's all I mean. 1190 01:43:27.439 --> 01:43:32.640 Do not get your feelings hurt. I'm not calling you bad. So it's 1191 01:43:32.680 --> 01:43:38.960 against all Ortho bros. Which I'm not dissing you, guys. I'm just 1192 01:43:39.000 --> 01:43:47.760 trying to find looking for uh contrarians who So it's like if you want Atheism, 1193 01:43:47.840 --> 01:43:53.159 Catholicism, Protestanism and all the Ortho bros call which is funny. Not 1194 01:43:53.239 --> 01:43:58.119 dissing you guys. I'm just saying Jack, let's see what Jack's got on 1195 01:43:58.239 --> 01:44:16.760 his mind. What's up Jack? Hello? Yes, sir, So, 1196 01:44:17.520 --> 01:44:24.720 I was kind of I kind of want to come Orthodox, but I don't 1197 01:44:24.760 --> 01:44:30.880 really understand about like contraception and divorce and I think I have a different view. 1198 01:44:32.239 --> 01:44:35.840 Yeah, I would just say Ubi Petris has a documentary on it from 1199 01:44:35.840 --> 01:44:40.000 the Orthodox perspective, and also an interview with doctor David Bradshaw. So I 1200 01:44:40.000 --> 01:44:44.159 would say to go watch those because they deal with the whole thing very in 1201 01:44:44.520 --> 01:44:48.319 very in depth way. Okay, thank you to watch that. Yeah, 1202 01:44:48.399 --> 01:44:55.039 Ubi Patris's channel, and there's a documentary that he made and a interview with 1203 01:44:55.159 --> 01:45:11.199 doctor Bradshaw on that very question. Fish no, Nicholas fish fish left hell, 1204 01:45:11.640 --> 01:45:15.000 Yes, sir, was everybody calling from a dang taint from a from 1205 01:45:15.079 --> 01:45:20.680 a toilet? What's going on? Calling from a Are you in the cockpit? 1206 01:45:20.800 --> 01:45:27.119 Bro? I'm in my car right now. Can you hear me clearly? 1207 01:45:27.239 --> 01:45:29.560 Or I can't hear you. I'm just jogging. Go ahead, all 1208 01:45:29.640 --> 01:45:33.760 right, all right? Cool. I just had a question about the Trinity 1209 01:45:34.279 --> 01:45:40.000 and in regards to like the essence of God and the persons. So when 1210 01:45:40.039 --> 01:45:45.079 I like think about the Trinity, obviously it's like in a way inconceivable for 1211 01:45:45.199 --> 01:45:49.199 us to like it, hasn't it. But when like when you talk about 1212 01:45:49.239 --> 01:45:54.840 the essence of God and you say the Father shares Uh has the nature of 1213 01:45:54.920 --> 01:45:57.079 God, and so does the Son have the nature of God, and the 1214 01:45:57.159 --> 01:46:01.439 Holy Spirit is the nature of God. This since that they share, is 1215 01:46:01.520 --> 01:46:05.399 this like you know, not in the sense of like time, but like 1216 01:46:05.600 --> 01:46:11.840 prior to the persons, or is this something that is like, No, 1217 01:46:12.000 --> 01:46:16.199 there's no temporal there's no temporal priority in God. Okay, because when I 1218 01:46:16.239 --> 01:46:18.479 think of that, I'm like, okay, So they all share of the 1219 01:46:18.520 --> 01:46:23.199 same essence. So could you say that's high that the essence is higher than 1220 01:46:23.239 --> 01:46:27.199 any of the one person's or would it be equal with the person? There's 1221 01:46:27.239 --> 01:46:31.079 no higher or lower in God. It's just it's just I mean, it's 1222 01:46:31.159 --> 01:46:36.880 not any different than the analogy to I mean, do I have human nature 1223 01:46:38.039 --> 01:46:41.520 more than I'm jay? I mean no, it's like the nature exists in 1224 01:46:41.600 --> 01:46:45.039 the mode of the person that has the nature. So no, nature is 1225 01:46:46.000 --> 01:46:49.119 just what God is. And since we don't know what God is, we 1226 01:46:49.279 --> 01:46:55.640 just simply give it that apathetic statement or status of that God's essence or nature 1227 01:46:55.720 --> 01:46:59.119 is unknowable. We know that he has the nature because He's revealed it to 1228 01:46:59.279 --> 01:47:01.399 us, but what is is we do not know, So we can we 1229 01:47:01.479 --> 01:47:05.000 can only like like you said, we can only know God by his person 1230 01:47:05.520 --> 01:47:09.680 in a personal way. Right, just in the same way that when you 1231 01:47:09.840 --> 01:47:13.840 say you know me, it's because you've had a direct personal interaction with me, 1232 01:47:14.680 --> 01:47:16.359 Right, But I can't like look into your soul and see like what 1233 01:47:16.520 --> 01:47:20.479 exactly you're comprised. Right. So like to a lot of people think that, 1234 01:47:23.159 --> 01:47:26.199 you know, it's like a definitional thing, like a science project. 1235 01:47:26.359 --> 01:47:29.560 Like let's put God in a microscope and we'll define what his essence is. 1236 01:47:29.720 --> 01:47:31.960 And now we don't know what God is, but we know that he is. 1237 01:47:32.119 --> 01:47:38.640 That's basil, okay. And so in relation to that, one of 1238 01:47:38.720 --> 01:47:42.880 the things that I like look at a lot in terms of like I guess 1239 01:47:42.920 --> 01:47:46.800 you could say, like creation and how it reflects God is like let's say 1240 01:47:48.479 --> 01:47:56.039 Fibonacci or the Mandel broad set and like fractals or sacred geometry and nature. 1241 01:47:56.359 --> 01:48:00.920 Yeah, and in what way would you say that related to God? As 1242 01:48:00.439 --> 01:48:04.319 it is a unise Like these things are like universal patterns in the created world. 1243 01:48:04.840 --> 01:48:09.439 Yeah, they show us the they show us the mind and the divine 1244 01:48:09.479 --> 01:48:14.199 ideas behind the created order. Okay, So like you would say, like 1245 01:48:14.600 --> 01:48:16.840 it is right to say, like these things are kind of like a fingerprint 1246 01:48:16.960 --> 01:48:21.800 of or the reflection of like God's mind absolutely, Okay, all right, 1247 01:48:21.840 --> 01:48:27.800 beautiful because I was just confused on how to relate and obviously with fractals and 1248 01:48:28.720 --> 01:48:32.159 fibonacci those are those are like mathematical sequences and patterns. But in terms of 1249 01:48:32.399 --> 01:48:36.880 things like sacred geometry, is that something that we really dive into as uh, 1250 01:48:38.479 --> 01:48:42.720 you know, as Christians or is that something that you would like not 1251 01:48:42.960 --> 01:48:45.000 really look too far into. No, I think there is truth to that. 1252 01:48:45.159 --> 01:48:47.279 I mean, if you uh, you know, for many years have 1253 01:48:47.359 --> 01:48:53.920 talked about that book Quadraga. The first uh several pages of that Quadraga book 1254 01:48:53.920 --> 01:48:58.920 are about what's called sacred geometry, and really that's just pointing out the patterns 1255 01:48:58.960 --> 01:49:03.880 and the principles between different disciplines like music or mathematics and geometry, and you 1256 01:49:03.960 --> 01:49:09.000 know, they're all based on the same principles, which shows the same mind 1257 01:49:09.119 --> 01:49:14.199 or ordering behind all of them. Would you say that that is something that 1258 01:49:14.279 --> 01:49:19.439 would be under the label of like natural revelation or like natural like theology like 1259 01:49:19.479 --> 01:49:21.920 the Roman Catholics we say, or something like that, or is that like 1260 01:49:21.960 --> 01:49:28.239 a natural revelation because like obviously, like when I see like like sacred geometry 1261 01:49:28.359 --> 01:49:30.640 or I see fractals, in nature or any of these things. To me, 1262 01:49:30.720 --> 01:49:38.000 it's like, okay, can you you could possibly reason from that that, 1263 01:49:38.119 --> 01:49:42.640 Okay, this is obviously a pattern that is reflecting something greater, especially 1264 01:49:43.720 --> 01:49:46.479 with its universality. Right, So could you say that's possibly a way that 1265 01:49:46.600 --> 01:49:51.439 in nature we could reason too, or at least come to like an understanding 1266 01:49:51.520 --> 01:49:58.279 of the Creator. Or is that not correct to say? No? I 1267 01:49:58.359 --> 01:50:03.479 think that Paul says is one that everything testifies to the mind of the One 1268 01:50:03.560 --> 01:50:10.520 True God and his created order. Right. But that's not the same thing 1269 01:50:10.600 --> 01:50:14.159 as like natural theology, where they say, like, okay, no, 1270 01:50:15.880 --> 01:50:19.600 by itself you can reason back to the Trinity or something. No natural theology. 1271 01:50:19.680 --> 01:50:24.199 When they read Romans Won, they think that it's actually talking about doing 1272 01:50:24.479 --> 01:50:28.039 syllogistic reasoning, and that like Pagans would sit there and if they thought hard 1273 01:50:28.119 --> 01:50:30.439 enough, they would come up to the same reasoning principles that aristol had and 1274 01:50:30.520 --> 01:50:33.800 they would reason back to a first cause. And nothing in Romans one is 1275 01:50:33.840 --> 01:50:40.279 about doing a syllogistic reasoning Aristotilian first cause. It's just merely saying that deep 1276 01:50:40.359 --> 01:50:43.840 down in everyone's heart there's an intuitive sense by all of the beauty and the 1277 01:50:43.920 --> 01:50:45.800 majesty around them, that there is a creator, there is a one true 1278 01:50:45.840 --> 01:50:48.479 God, and they know it deep down, and that one true God in 1279 01:50:48.600 --> 01:50:51.479 some way is even known, as Paul says, as the logos, the 1280 01:50:51.520 --> 01:50:55.560 whole the logos is near, the Word is near you even in your hearts, 1281 01:50:55.640 --> 01:51:00.279 Paul says to unbelievers. So so that's the actual nation. Thank you 1282 01:51:00.399 --> 01:51:03.960 for that, though, I gotta go appreciate that we had the show tonight 1283 01:51:04.039 --> 01:51:08.880 with Tristan Sam Sulix says, if God's acts change, I didn't say that 1284 01:51:08.960 --> 01:51:12.760 God's acts themselves change. I said that God is able to do different things. 1285 01:51:13.439 --> 01:51:17.119 And the answer in orthodox theology from the Cappadocians and from Palamas and from 1286 01:51:17.199 --> 01:51:24.159 the Bible is that God does different things. God's essence does not undergo change. 1287 01:51:24.640 --> 01:51:28.199 Yet God does different things, and that's because of kenosis. So everything 1288 01:51:28.239 --> 01:51:30.800 that you're saying, Sam, just apply it to the second person incarnate. 1289 01:51:31.319 --> 01:51:35.560 I didn't say that it's a created thing incarnate. I'm not talking about his 1290 01:51:35.720 --> 01:51:40.720 human nature, talking about the second person, who's an uncreated person in time 1291 01:51:40.800 --> 01:51:45.560 and space doing different things. So the answer is not a bifurcated either or 1292 01:51:45.760 --> 01:51:49.760 between either God is created or uncreated, or his actions are created, uncreated, 1293 01:51:49.840 --> 01:51:55.359 or changing or unchanging. The answer is that God transcends the antinomies, 1294 01:51:55.439 --> 01:51:59.039 as many Orthodox theologians say, so he is able to do different things. 1295 01:51:59.159 --> 01:52:03.039 I mean, this is literally the terminology of Staniloe in Orthodox dogmatics. So 1296 01:52:04.520 --> 01:52:09.720 if God creates a world, walks on water, and then destroys that world, 1297 01:52:09.840 --> 01:52:14.920 those are not the same acts. Okay, God walking in time and 1298 01:52:15.000 --> 01:52:23.319 space to change the wine at Cana and to heal the blind, those are 1299 01:52:24.000 --> 01:52:30.720 divine powers in time and space, and they're different actions. That does not 1300 01:52:30.920 --> 01:52:39.119 mean that they're created actions. They're uncreated actions synergizing with His created human nature. 1301 01:52:39.920 --> 01:52:44.560 But they're not created actions any more than that Theophanes are created Theophanes. 1302 01:52:45.039 --> 01:52:48.960 You understand that that Theophanes are called God. The Bernie bush is a Theophanic 1303 01:52:49.039 --> 01:52:56.600 manifestation. The Bernie bush is not still burning, and the fact that God 1304 01:52:56.840 --> 01:53:01.000 is no longer in the burning bush does not make God a changing God. 1305 01:53:02.239 --> 01:53:10.720 So the answer is that God is above both being and becoming stasis and change. 1306 01:53:11.640 --> 01:53:15.840 Do you understand that? This is the very answer Maximus gives to the 1307 01:53:15.960 --> 01:53:19.520 originist challenge. So you're trying to pit things back to the Originist dialectic of 1308 01:53:19.560 --> 01:53:27.680 either ors, and the answer that Maximus gives to originism is that God is 1309 01:53:27.680 --> 01:53:33.840 above both statis and change, so everybody's always trying to choose