Unraveling Misinformation. In this segment, we'll discuss the impact of misinformation on society.
At first glance, this may just be an article geared towards psychology or
the politics of information. But taking a closer look, could there be a
greater message. Jason Friedman is here to break it down. Jason So.
In a recent study, economist John Lists along with his colleagues, they conducted
a real world experiment to see whether simple, low cost nudges can be effective
in helping consumers to reject misinformation. The economists conducted their field experiment in the
run up to the twenty twenty two presidential campaign or presidential election in Columbia.
Like the US, they're extremely extremely polarized. To figure out effective ways to
lower the demand for misinformation, the economists recruited over two thousand Columbians to gauge
whether these nudges get participants to be more critical of misinformation. Each group has
shown a series of headlines some fakes, I'm real. Those who saw videos
of opposing size getting along, We're thirty percent less likely to believe misinformformation.
The researchers also found that the personality test had little or no effect on their
propensity to believe or reject fake news. The economists also found that participants who
both took the tests and watched the video became so skeptical that they were about
thirty percent less likely to view true headlines as reliable. So in a world
of AI and deep fakes, one can't be too skeptical, can they?
Well? I think they can be. They should be right because the misinformation,
the control of information is an age old center of gravity. It pulls
it, It has so much of an impact on the things around it.
Everything is pulled towards information because it is the precursor to so many things that
happened. So, Jason, reading this article, what was the most striking
You laid out quite a few statistics there, but what was the most striking
piece of information you walked away with? Why? I really like the last
point that was brought up about how when they were given a chance to kind
of look at themselves and see how they process information on top of the videos
they were shown, they realize that, holy shit, there is so much
misinformation being put out and I mean so much in comparison to truth, right,
verifiable truth, that they're like, even if this is true, I
don't fucking believe it. And the idea of being too skeptical to me is
interesting because I'm more than happy to reject or to not reject all hypothesis,
right, I'm happy to accept it, right, It's I'm happy to be
like, Okay, this isn't the case. I would much rather come from
that angle as opposed to automatically accepting something than having to prove myself wrong.
It seems so ass backwards, but we're conditioned, especially in a society,
I mean shit, growing up here in South here in Texas, downstream from
Lakewood Church, you're conditioned to accept first and to accept the thor and except
first, and then you have to get whittled down. You know, critical
thinking isn't really valued in the in these communities. And we can see time
and time again and study after study of study that those people who have a
propensity to believe fake news tend to also be more fundamentalist, tend to have
a propensity to reject science, to reject observable facts of the universe in exchange
for theology. I think that that I think that that statistic, that less
statistic thirty percent less likely to believe misinformation is pretty striking, And Kelly,
I wanted to ask you, what does it say that so many people realized
that they couldn't trust the things that they were being told after this study.
Well, I think what it says is a lot of people haven't been thinking
for themselves before that that they were starting, they start actually realized how to
do that. And I think that's what was the most important part of the
studying myself. Not to disagree with you again, Jason, was not the
amount of people that got to that point, but how did they get to
that point? And it seems like having a being exposed to good, congrational,
non aggressive, non confrontational discussion with somebody representing both sides got more people
there than any other process. And I think that was really really important,
and it's something that I've been trying to stress a lot. You know,
this is the way we need to deal with theis more. I think we
want to be non confrontational. We want to show them that we can be
people too, we can even be the better person. And that's really really
important, I think to come across and it's not just with the person that
you're dealing with, but it's very important to the people who are watching that.
That's who this study was done with, people who are watching that conversation.
So yeah, I think that that's really important. I thought that was
really interesting. In the most important part of it, You know, that
study is here toward people that were not even involved, because now the second
and third order effects of that is that we're all sitting here talking about it,
and other people are going to come into knowing about this article, knowing
about this study that took place, and understand, even if they're watching us
with some criticism in mind, understand that there are people out there that are
having some conversations that are being challenged, even if they think just like they
do. So I think that was striking to me. And you know,
I also want to say that information control, I said this earlier, dates
back to nearly all cultures and achieving victory, right Sun Zou Sun Sue said,
impact your enemy's control of information and this and don't allow your enemy to
control your information. We still abide by those principles in combat and preparing for
conflict today, but I think that in the media and in the political arena
especially, it's almost like a battleground because the control of information and the influence
of information. Uh is so disingenuous, but it's meant to knock the other
person out of the competition. I just wanted to see what what your thoughts
were on that after after your analysis, Jason, does that compute with you?
No, no one does compute with me. And I think what Kelly,
what you're talking about, and what Kelly was saying about people being able
to have amicable, amicable discussions being really important. You know, we were
talking before we know, before we filmed, and I had mentioned to you
all about having a lot of my close friends are religious, you know,
and I really and then also all of us discussing how much we like to
argue with each other, my friends, and then all all you know,
all three of us, and then you know, the producers and everybody.
Kelly loves argue with me. Kelly and I argue a lot, actually,
and uh, it's like a lot actually on a CD and talking just between
each other. I know, I am a fucking dick, and I'm proud
of it. That's cool, man, you know, I can and I
can live with that. But at the same time, if I'm wrong,
I'm like I was wrong about that. What I like about especially like like
the buddies I trained with, you know, I mentioned them a lot.
They're all different religions and like a good mix actually, and and different cultures
from different places in the world. And we're all close friends and beat the
shit out of each other. But like we argue about pretty important shit.
We talk about his social justice, we talk about religion, talk about Christian
nationalism, talk about atheism, talk about all that stuff openly. That's all
those things they tell you not to talk about that exactly, you know,
And I have I think I might have a kink for like having religious friends.
I don't know. I love it because I like being my open self
about everything I'm into and what I'm not into and blah blah blah. But
also being like, hey, bro, you don't judge me. I don't
judge you is you're cool with me, and I can trust you around my
kid. You're not going to like harm my kid or steal my shit.
We're probably in a good place right now, right Are you a good sparring
partner? Can I trust you? There? Cool? Now? I respect
you more than almost anybody. Let's just work from there and see what happens.
And I think there's where you see more commonalities and allies, and maybe
by people observing that. Sorry, it's a roundabout way of getting to this.
People observing that can see, Hey, that fucking weird tattooed guy with
the shirt with pentagrams and my Muslim coach are really close friends. Like oh,
maybe, like I can be cool with people that are different than me.
I don't know, you know what I mean. And it's it's I
think it's a really cool thing. I didn't even really think about it that
way. So, yeah, Kelly, you made a good point, man.
Yeah, And Kelly, do you think that after realizing that they can't
trust what they're being told, that some of these people might actually also realize,
holy shit, I'm a victim of my own tribe. Yeah, oh
yeah, totally, totally. I didn't. That's what I went through most.
I think a lot of people who become atheists, that that convert to
atheism go through that process like holy crap, and these people have just been
deluding me my whole life. And yeah, I was victimized, and that
that's the birth of the angry atheist. Right. That's right, right,
that is right, yep, I was, and that is what I mean
made me the angry atheist, the realizations that I had about the information I
was receiving. Jason, I want, I want to harken back to something
that you said because I think this is important. So I've done jiu jitsu
in combat sports as well, and the lack of information in those scenarios is
also quite special because just hear me out on this, I might not know
anything about anyone that I train with, but I still know them. I
know them in a way that I don't know anybody else. I don't know
my own mother, I don't know my wife, my best friend in the
same way that I do when I'm fighting somebody, you know what I mean.
And it's such a special relationship and to have that without the outside noise
is something that's unique to those situations. I just wanted to see if you
can expand on that. Oh dude, I man, I look so for
Okay, So okay, anybody who does combat of sports knows that you're only
not hurting whenever you're fighting, right, you know, So everybody knows that.
So I look so look forward to sparring. We have sparring Tuesday,
Wednesday, Thursday where we're doing ca drills and small gloves and you know,
really just laying into each other. Man, I look so forward to that.
You know, got my buddy who's an Orthodox chew. Got my other
buddy who's a Christian, My other buddy who is Islamic. My other buddy
is into this, you know, one of my buddy. You know.
We got a black dude, we got a we got a Russian dude,
we got a Hispanic dude. We got me you know, tattooed u Jewish
guy. Right. I mean it's a cool mix of people. And I
fucking look so forward to that, and I cherish those times, you know.
And then we sit there and we beat the shit out of each other,
and that's kind of like the foreplay to like, hey, let's have
a cool conversation afterwards, right, and then you hit you like and like
you said, that connection do you have with these dudes, Like it's it's
it's it's intimate, you know, and you because you're sitting there, you're
working on something that's so important to you. That's like the thing that like
anybody who fights in this kind of especially jiu jitsu, and you obsess over
it all day long, all day I think you make a good point about
that being the foreplay, because you really, when you eliminate the static,
you eliminate that information, right, you're actually building credibility. Right, we
get a lot and it doesn't have to be combat sports, right, it
could be could be pretty much anything. Kelly. You're a geologist, right,
and you you're you're smart in the ways of science. You've got to
come across some people that you're only talking science, right, You're only talking
yeah, yeah, you're only talking the things that matter in that moment.
And then you probably find that once you've established a human connection, you know,
you could open it up to other things and find this person is not
so bad. I don't know what what's your experience been like in that arena?
Yeah, my best friend up here in Michigan. That's how we met
each other, was talking rocks and then I mean we unfortunately he's gone now,
but yeah, that's how I met him and talking one thing, we're
both geologists, and then the next thing, I know, you know,
we know each other for ten years and became brothers. It was awesome.
Yeah, And you know, going back to the martial arts thing, I
did a little bit myself and it was in our school on Saturdays. It
was wasn't required, but it was kind of traditional that when we were done
for the day, we'd all go out to day together. You know,
we'd beat each other up for an hour and a half and then go then
go share a meal. So yeah, of course, absolutely so So Kelly,
I want to ask you, though we've we've done several segments tonight,
and in a couple of them you referenced history, and you know, we've
talked about the roots of Christianity and things like that. How does information now
the way it's used differ, in your opinion, from the way it used
to be used, Because in my opinion, I think a lack of information
in the in the Middle Ages and in the early Church years was the way
that people were controlled. But now there's so much information that people are almost
manipulating it because they can't control its absence. So what are you not almost
they are manipula manipulating it, right, That's that's the that's the thing.
And I'm not sure when that change happened. I'm pretty sure it happened within
my lifetime, though I just didn't notice it happened because it wasn't like a
switch that turned down. It was just a slow thing where we started where
information started to be taking over by large corporations for the most part, so
we were only getting filtered things, the things that they wanted us to know.
Now the rest of it was out there. That was one of the
great things about the Internet is that that information that that was being suppressed was
out there. Unfortunately, there was a bunch of other information that, oh,
they don't want you to know this, so you think it's something that's
suppressed, but it's all bullshit too, a bunch of pseudoscience, a bunch
of pseudohistory, pseudo archaeology, and that became a problem. And you know,
on the very first time I was ever on an ACA show, I
said, the Internet needs to be peer reviewed, and I stand by that
today. So yeah, well we are the peer review, aren't we.
Right now we are reviewing the accuracy of some of that stuff, and so
were the people in the study. And I really want to hearken or I
say, I use that word already, but you know, stay focused on
this idea of victimization, because there are people that look to information and look
to the Internet for reassurance of their beliefs, but what they get is such
a hyper version of that. For example, nowadays, in the political climate,
you might see a presidential candidate riding on a shark with a very Schwarzenegger
like body, holding a machine gun and an American flag, you know what
I mean, and people are like, yeah, people are like, man,
this is this is what I stand for. Right, But it's like,
no, no, you don't go look at the other picture of your
so or quote unquote candidate right, who is very solemn praying. The guy's
got six fingers. I mean, you need to know, you need to
know when you're being fed bullshit, right, And I think you know,
having these conversations does that so yeah, Jason, I just want to kind
of go back to you, same question for you. Do you see a
difference in how informations use now versus the way we understood it maybe in earlier
years. I mean yes or no. I mean if you look at any
established empire with people who have some form of access information, I mean there's
the dissemination of information is highly monitored and controlled. You know, see this
whenever Christian controlled countries and shit like that. So we don't need to go
into a history lesson. I think right now it's still a lack of information.
I think we're still have a where in an information desert, not because
the information isn't there, but you've just got such an influx of so much
fucking trash and just so much other quote information because I think when we're saying
information, we're talking about things that support like good shit, right I mean,
that's probably how we could define it. When we're talking about information.
Right now, we're like cool shit that's factual and real and beneficial and interesting
and verifiable, like you know, some good shit. But there's a lot
of info. There's a lot of just fucking just noise just smashing into your
fucking eye holes and ear holes and sense holes all day. So it's I
think what happens is you still have an information deficit because you can only really
take in so much until you're just like, ah, my brain's tied.
But then you put on noise and chatter that repeats and repeats and repeats and
repeats. Think about the songs that are popular. You just repeat and repeat
and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat, repeat and repeat, you know.
So that's what we're stuck in. So I think it is a lack
of information, just in a different way, Kelly. And one of the
problems when you get all that information and you're filtering out just some of it
because that's all you can absorb. Yes, you're you're absorbing the stuff that
you want to hear. Yeah, and that's a big problem too, so
that you're not doing any critical thinking. You're just like, oh, this
says something that's right along with what I believe, so that must be true.
Well, yeah, then you're training your like kind of default mode network
to constantly like settle into that cycle and settle into it. And if you're
not challenging it, shit doesn't fucking start firing try to grab new shit.
So that's a big problem, and I agree with you. I think that
that's what was interesting about this study is that the people that realized that they
probably don't trust what they're being told, it only came. It only came
after they were forced to face that, right, Yeah, So I think
that was pretty significant. What you know, over the years, we've heard
this thing about the human uh, the human attention span shortening. How do
you guys think that that factors into our ability to absorb information? Good or
bad or or whatever the case may be. I I don't know if the
human attention span is shortening. I think it's I don't know if any studies
to Jason, I know you're the mind guide, you know of any that
have done in that area. But I think it's a perception. You know,
like people had less to do one hundred years ago. They didn't have
a phone in their hand, they didn't have computers, they didn't have the
ability to go to the theater, they didn't have the ability to hop in
their car and go visit somebody, so they would sit right, I mean
that's what you think longer. Yeah, right, So it's not that it's
not that the attention span has has gotten shorter. It's just that we have
more things to give our attention to. Right. So, when I was
going through uh like group psychology and adult psychology, we taught one of my
favorite things talk about is critical thinking and reasoning and concrete operations like black and
white thinking. And one of the biggest criticisms of I guess just the Western
American structure of education and thinking and social expectations and information is that we are
not required to think critically. We don't have to it's so what they're seeing
is a very cool well well that and well, and it's more than that.
It's it's not it's not culturally expected. So what they're seeing, bear
with me, is that critical thinking and reasoning and the ability to do that.
And I guess like the post formal where dialectics and pragmatism and gray areas
and reasoning and understanding how to work with the world and not just black,
white, good, bad, stinky not stinky you know, I mean,
well not even stinky smell. You know. It has to be expected by
your social circle, by your social environment, by yours. There needs to
be a pressure that causes you to do it. So critical thinking is a
thing that you have to do. In order to do it, you have
to train it. And if it's not expected by your society, which is
again you asked, is there anything behind this? If it's not expected by
your society, then that pressure isn't going to be there. And if you're
in places and situations to where you don't have to search out resources and access
to information and you don't have to rely on cunning, you can it only
makes sense that that would correlate with what they're talking about So that's where my
mind goes when I think about that. Yeah, that's a great point,
Kelly. You have anything to add on to that, you know. I
probably the best thing that I can say right now is, Tomember, remember
that the best way to convince somebody is to have a non confrontational conversation.
I might disagree. Well, that's that's what that study just showed those Yeah
fuck you. Well no, I only said that because you got me.
No. Well, I think sorry, I think confrontational is is healthy,
but it's confrontational with the non aggressive. How about with that with the for
resolution? Okay, intent matters, Intent matters in the Yeah, sorry,
I just wanted to It's okay, it's okay. I thank you, guys.
I just I want to, you know, put an experience that I
had. You know. I I met with an old college professor a few
years ago and we talked about how, you know, the course of teaching
is changing, and he said, you know, and I got my degree
in history, and he goes, you know, I don't. I don't
really expect people to remember dates or or or names anymore because they have it
in their phone. Now I'm teaching them more of how to find it and
how to think critically about it. And I think that that is a huge
transition. And so you know, for this segment, I want I want
our viewers to take away the fact that we talked about the way that information
can be used, the way it can be weaponized, the way that we
rely on it, and the importance of breaking it down because this study of
this article shows that even in your most preconceived notions, your strongest convictions,
there's still room to challenge those things.