WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.960 Now one of your pudding. I got a string going on here, something 2 00:00:03.960 --> 00:00:07.919 just cause my dog. Something killed your dog, my dog. We're flying 3 00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:10.160 through the or over the tree. I don't know how it did it, 4 00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:15.960 Okay, Damn, I'm really confused. All I saw was my dog coming 5 00:00:15.960 --> 00:00:18.239 over the fence and he was dead. And once you hit the ground like, 6 00:00:18.399 --> 00:00:20.879 I didn't see any cars. All I saw was my dog coming over 7 00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:41.320 the fence. Sat what are you putting? We got some wonder or something 8 00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:52.039 crawling around out here? Did you see what it was? Or was it 9 00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:54.799 was? Standing enough? I'm out here looking through the window now and I 10 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:59.079 don't see anything. I don't want to go outside, Jesus, quice you 11 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:06.439 bick Hello, get somebody out here. Quent on out there. I thought 12 00:01:06.439 --> 00:01:10.159 of a bit of about text forty nine. I don't know easy out there. 13 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:12.200 Yeah, I'm walking right. Hey. I want to welcome o guest 14 00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:15.280 to the show. It is doctor Chirou from Oregon. Welcome to the show. 15 00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:18.719 Thanks thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. I am 16 00:01:18.760 --> 00:01:21.439 glad to have you on the show. Let's get into this bigfoot thing. 17 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:25.719 I know you're not here to necessarily talk about experiences. Why don't you lay 18 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:29.040 the foundation. You are a pH d. You are a doctor. Let's 19 00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:32.359 talk a little bit about your history, your background, your education, and 20 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:36.079 then let's get into the sasquatch subject. Sure, yeah, no problems. 21 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:38.079 I grew up here in southern Oregon. My dad was a hunting and fishing 22 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:42.120 guide. Spent my youth in the woods and along the rivers. Grew up 23 00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:46.760 in Brogue River on the river. I love being out in the woods, 24 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:53.200 have been a longtime fan of the sasquatch mythology and the stories. Then went 25 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:57.680 off to school and unlike anyone that I grew up with, decided I was 26 00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:00.200 going to study primates in the wild. I decided that when I was eight 27 00:02:00.280 --> 00:02:06.640 years old, and so just continued on and ended up doing my PhD in 28 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:12.039 evolutionary anthropology. My field work was on the development of behavior and wild male 29 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:17.080 chimpanzees. I've also studied baboons, gibbons, and lemurs, a few other 30 00:02:17.719 --> 00:02:23.879 species here and there, as well as studying grizzly bears, gray wolves, 31 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:28.520 and human behavior. Doing a lot of human evolutionary studies, so studying the 32 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:32.840 fossil record. When you're an evolutionary anthropologist, you have to be a Swiss 33 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:37.400 Army knife in a lot of different areas. Have to know enough genetics to 34 00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:39.319 get you by, you have to understand the fossil record. You have to 35 00:02:39.759 --> 00:02:46.120 my case, no behavioral ecology, which includes understanding animal behavior and human behavior. 36 00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:50.400 So there's a lot of different hats that you wear. Yeah, I've 37 00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:53.400 been interested being a kid from Oregon, just a guy from Oregon that I've 38 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:58.759 always been like, man'd be so cool sasquatch was out there. But I 39 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:01.439 put a scientific lens on it. It just leads you in directions where a 40 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:05.719 lot of it doesn't hold up. But I'm always like, my thing is 41 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:07.520 in biology. You should never say never. Hey, you should never say 42 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:09.599 never. You should never say always, because as soon as you do, 43 00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:14.280 somebody's going to pull up a seal camp off the floor of the ocean and 44 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:19.159 off Madagascar, and your whole idea is just shot. So we always need 45 00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:22.919 to be open to new evidence. We always need to be open to two 46 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:25.240 ideas. And I try and keep that perspective. And I've been a fan 47 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:30.120 of your podcast for a while. I listened to it when I'm getting my 48 00:03:30.199 --> 00:03:32.280 kid ready for school in the morning, and it's a nice kind of way 49 00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:37.639 to wake up to something that isn't too pressing, isn't waking up to the 50 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:40.280 BBC or something like that. So I appreciate that, and I like your 51 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:43.919 approach, and that's why I reached out and said, hey, let's have 52 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:46.960 a conversation. I think it'll be fun. I am so glad you did. 53 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:49.919 I did pick up and write down a couple of words that you said 54 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:53.680 in the beginning of this, because I famously don't get into the weeds when 55 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:55.439 I have people on the show, no matter what the topic is. I 56 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:59.080 like to be fresh and I like to hear it for the first time. 57 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:02.240 So I didn't do a lot of preparation for this conversation, admittedly, and 58 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:06.280 I wrote down mythology and stories those kind of stuck out to me when you 59 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:11.680 were talking about bigfoot. I always approached this very scientifically, or at least 60 00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:15.160 I think so I try to employ the scientific method, critical thinking, Ockham's 61 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:18.399 Raiser, all of those things when it comes to bigfoot. I've straddled that 62 00:04:18.519 --> 00:04:25.240 line for so long with just admitting I've gotten so much shit lately with people 63 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:29.439 read it. We talk about the bunghole of social media on our other podcast 64 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:31.480 about Reddit and going down the rabbit hole. Some of the people over there, 65 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:33.560 Hey, I don't listen to this guy because he doesn't even know if 66 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:39.800 Bigfoot's real. My thing has always been I don't think I need to be 67 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:44.000 directly in a camp of sure. Some people who listen to the show want 68 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:46.279 me to be all in on Bigfoot, and they want me to say it's 69 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:50.560 real. I'm about ninety eight percent there, just because of my own experiences 70 00:04:50.600 --> 00:04:56.800 and talking to so many people who have had so many different experiences that really 71 00:04:56.839 --> 00:05:00.839 can't be explained. I'm almost there, but we just address this. Wayne 72 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:03.800 and I talked about it on that Bigfoot podcast this past week. At least 73 00:05:03.800 --> 00:05:10.120 for me, intelligent people form theories. We form hypotheses based on what we 74 00:05:10.279 --> 00:05:13.399 know now, the information we have, what we grew up with, the 75 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:16.279 stories that we've been told, the conversations we've had, and as new things 76 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:20.079 come in, we have to adjust. I've done this in so many aspects 77 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:25.639 of Bigfoot, whether it be people in Bigfoot, whether it be evidence in 78 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:30.000 Bigfoot, or whether it just be stories anecdotal accounts of these things. I 79 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:33.480 have at least always tried to adjust my theory and adjust the way I feel 80 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:38.639 about these things based on the information I have. This new information comes in, 81 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:42.199 I've adjusted. I used to think that Patterson Gimlin film was a hoax. 82 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:46.600 I'm about ninety nine percent sure that's probably a real sasquatch there, But 83 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:48.839 it took a long time for me to get there. It took a couple 84 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:54.439 of years. Frankly, I'm still there with the subject in general, still 85 00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:57.199 not one hundred percent because I haven't seen one of these things. I think 86 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:00.800 it's very important to approach it from that standpoint. I've always done that, 87 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:04.480 and most people who listen to the show, I think they're glad that I 88 00:06:04.519 --> 00:06:08.480 do that, because I don't drink the Bigfoot kool aid. I call people 89 00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:12.279 out if I think something's BS. If I don't agree with something, I'm 90 00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:15.040 gonna say it. Just given your history, your background, your education, 91 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:20.360 obviously you're generally interested in the subject. Let's just go down that rabbit hole 92 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:25.000 for a second. From your lens as a scientist and what you know and 93 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:30.160 what you studied about primate behavior. Just give us your elevator pitch on what 94 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:33.399 you think in general about sasquatch one way or the other, pro or con 95 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:38.240 sure, Yeah, and let me just say really quickly before I do that 96 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:42.879 that one of the things that got me into your podcast was I really appreciated 97 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:47.480 your perspective on the Todd's Standing videos when they came out. I appreciated that 98 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:50.800 you called it like you saw it, Like you said you didn't drink the 99 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:55.040 kool aid, but you weren't. Also, I'm going to dismiss this out 100 00:06:55.120 --> 00:06:58.240 right. I'm gonna call it like I see it where I think it's BS, 101 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:00.040 I'm gonna say so, but I think that is possible. I'm gonna 102 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:02.839 say so. And I've listened to some of your stuff about going up and 103 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:05.279 spending some time with them. I'd love to hear more of that at some 104 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:10.160 point. But yeah, from my perspectives, for me, whenever you're thinking 105 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:14.879 about any kind of population living in an area, the first thing that you 106 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:19.079 got to think about is the ecology, and you got to think about can 107 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:27.360 the ecology support that population. Now we all know that based on what folks 108 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:31.639 use as their evidence, people in the Sasquatch world say absolutely it could support 109 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:35.839 a large ape. And to be clear, if Sasquatch exists, from my 110 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:40.480 perspective, I don't go into any of the portals or anything like that. 111 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:44.759 It is a biological entity if it exists. But that's also my perspective on 112 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:47.720 pretty much everything. So that's where I start. There's a couple of things 113 00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:54.560 that immediately when you hear the current narrative around sasquatch that stand out. The 114 00:07:54.600 --> 00:08:00.600 first is a lot of people characterize them as some sort of op level carnivore, 115 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:05.240 something along those lines. It's really difficult for a carnivore to get as 116 00:08:05.319 --> 00:08:13.879 big as sasquatch are reported to be really difficult. That requires some really high 117 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:18.120 hunting success of really large animals. People will say bears are that big. 118 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:22.279 Yeah, grizzly bears are carnivores, but they're carnivores that scavenge a hell of 119 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:26.279 a lot and they eat a lot of things that are berries, fungus, 120 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:31.279 all sorts of things that a carnivore, an obligate carnivore like a big cat, 121 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:35.679 isn't going to eat those. So bears are omnivores. And that's one 122 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:39.240 thing where I push back. And actually, when I was talking to Cliff 123 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:43.919 Barrickman about this, I was saying, for me, it's far more believable 124 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:50.759 knowing primate evolution. Knowing the ecology of what carnivores require, it's far more 125 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:58.399 believable that if sasquatch exists, it's something that has adapted to eating really low 126 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:05.000 quality foods. And part of that is the descriptions of people give when they 127 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:07.720 say that they saw them, they saw their teeth. They don't see any 128 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:13.200 canines, they don't see any shearing, any carnid teeth. They see big 129 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:16.039 flat teeth. Those are teeth that are made to be basically a primate version 130 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:20.799 of a cow, right chewing up low quality foods, fibrous foods. So 131 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.600 that's the first thing, is thinking of the ecology. And along those lines, 132 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:30.240 I don't understand why a lot of the sort of sasquatch researchers and I 133 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:33.840 put that in finger quotes, because I don't know how much controlled research is 134 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:37.399 going on or how much it's just armchair stuff. And that's all fine. 135 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:41.279 I'm good with that. I love citizens science and everything else, but we 136 00:09:41.320 --> 00:09:48.120 probably shouldn't confuse that with decades spent researching a subject. It's really interesting that 137 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:52.240 people tend to talk about although they have to have shelter. I don't understand 138 00:09:52.240 --> 00:10:01.200 that concept because most primates don't use shelters. I've been in monsoon qualit environments 139 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:05.039 with chimpanzees where all they do is duck their heads and just sit there and 140 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:11.240 wait it out. I've also seen them walk into empty crevices at the base 141 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:13.320 of a tree, a hole at the base of a tree, back into 142 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:16.240 it like it's a little phone booth, and just waited out. And so 143 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:22.279 sometimes yeah, oranguet ansel sometimes use leaves to cover their heads during a heavy 144 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:26.240 rainstorm, but most of the time they just put their heads down, cross 145 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:31.120 their arms and waited out. So again, doesn't mean that would be what 146 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:37.679 sasquatch has to do. What we know big apes do isn't something like making 147 00:10:37.799 --> 00:10:43.080 tree structures and things like that and making homes for themselves. So that's the 148 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:50.039 other part, thinking about things like the temperature gradients. Most primates can't survive 149 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:54.759 at places where sasquatches are said to be seen. So again the ecology comes 150 00:10:54.799 --> 00:10:58.879 back, and that all leads me to one of the biggest things. And 151 00:10:58.200 --> 00:11:01.840 actually Meldrum and I talked about this, and Jeff and I have known each 152 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:05.320 other for years. We have cross pathsic conferences. I have a ton of 153 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:11.080 respect for Jeff and we talked about the niche that sasquatches would fill. All 154 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:16.480 too often people are describing black bears, and my thing is, you don't 155 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:20.639 see two really large mammals filling the same niche in the same environment. Like 156 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:24.399 people say, oh, if black bears can live there, then sasquatch can 157 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:28.159 live there. Sure, but they're already bears there. And even if one 158 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:31.480 is nocturnal and one is diurnal. Again, the amount of food that you 159 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:37.000 need to support those kind of body masses you'd have to be in really tiny 160 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:41.399 numbers. So probabilities are always in my mind that way of the ecology. 161 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:46.360 Then there are some biological components that I think of things like structurally, for 162 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:50.559 a biped regardless of what kind of foot structure and everything else. When people 163 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:56.120 start talking about nine and a half but tall bipeds, there's a reason why 164 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:58.840 the tallest people in the world live to be forty years old that are really 165 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:03.840 age, their bodies just break down. And that kind of vertical structure is 166 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:11.559 really difficult to establish for anything that is on two legs. Again, we're 167 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:16.000 talking biology, so it doesn't mean it can't happen, it's just the probability 168 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:18.799 of it's really low. And then the final thing I'd say, and this 169 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:22.960 is where the mythology comes in, is if you listen to how a lot 170 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:26.080 of people describe sasquatch. When they do like a full description, they sound 171 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:31.480 like superheroes. This was the biggest, strongest, fastest thing I've ever seen. 172 00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:37.039 Nothing could hurt it. It moved faster than a cheetah. It was 173 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:39.559 stronger than a gorilla. So you were hanging out with the incredible Hulk. 174 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:46.399 Biology usually doesn't work that way. You usually don't maximize all of these features. 175 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:52.240 You aren't going to run seventy miles an hour if you weigh one thousand 176 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:56.000 pounds. Typically, if you're an a NFL fan and you watch the combine 177 00:12:56.399 --> 00:13:01.639 and watch the college players coming out, there were some three hundred pounders that 178 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:05.440 went four five six four six forties, and that's fast, a lot faster 179 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:09.799 than I could ever run. But they weren't running a four to two forty 180 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:13.240 like the wide receivers were. And that's just within our species. That's not 181 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:18.639 even talking about different species and their abilities. So that's the part where I 182 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:24.000 get into there's a lot of mythologizing where I would believe it much more if 183 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:26.960 they talked about they were fast and a short burst, and then they're just 184 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:31.559 there. But these reports where man it ran across that hillside or up that 185 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:35.200 hillside at a speed that a human could never do. Again, I go 186 00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:41.399 back to where's the energy coming from. So there's a lot of biological improbabilities 187 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:48.399 that make it really hard to imagine this species actually existing in North America. 188 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:52.720 We've talked about this recently, Wayne and I over on that Bigfoot podcast. 189 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:56.039 We're talking about Robert Wadlow. I think he was something like eight foot eleven. 190 00:13:56.200 --> 00:14:01.360 He had a size thirty seven double D foot, which I think his 191 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:05.879 foot measured out a little over eighteen inches. Because you always hear that I 192 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:09.440 use the word always. If you're saying always or never, you're probably lying 193 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:11.159 and the truth is always in the middle. So I try not to do 194 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:18.200 that. But typically it's very common to hear of fifteen to seventeen inch tracks 195 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:22.080 when people find footprints, for example living the Sasquatch, and we were talking 196 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:26.240 about a particular story. I think somebody was on the show, I don't 197 00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:30.240 remember who it was. Somebody was talking about having a twenty or twenty two 198 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:35.000 inch footprint and how somebody immediately, and I think he actually said it might 199 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:39.600 have been Jeff or somebody who was speaking on behalf of Jeff or knowing what 200 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:43.440 Jeff knew. That was just too large. There was no way that something 201 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:46.799 could have a foot that big. And we were talking about Robert Wadlow, 202 00:14:46.919 --> 00:14:52.519 because this is a man, right although he was certainly an extreme for our 203 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:56.519 species, had an eighteen plus inch foot. So I was like, Okay, 204 00:14:56.519 --> 00:15:01.200 if we're talking sasquatch, it's not out of the realm a possibility for 205 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:03.639 the foot to be that big. I too, agree with you on a 206 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:07.799 lot of things that you were talking about. I started with the size, 207 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:11.320 and this is where I have changed my theory. I've changed my working hypothesis 208 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:16.480 about these creatures. I think a lot of times when people start talking, 209 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:18.279 and it happened to me recently. I think somebody told me on an interview 210 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:24.200 recently that somebody described a sasquatch that was possibly ten to twelve feet tall, 211 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:28.639 according to this witness. I just shake my head there, because I don't 212 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:33.559 even play a PhD on television, and I don't get into anthropology and people's 213 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:37.519 make up, the body, the skeleton, any of those things. But 214 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:41.279 I know that it's difficult. If you saw Robert Wadlow as an example, 215 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:45.519 towards the end of his life and even in his early years, he's walking 216 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:48.799 with a cane, he's having very difficult joint issues, the weight of his 217 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:54.080 body pressing down on those joints. It's just not built to do that. 218 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:58.240 I have adjusted my hypothesis on these things to think that if they exist and 219 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:02.799 people are seeing what they say they're seeing, because I certainly want to get 220 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:06.399 into some of the anecdotal reports and go down that rabbit hole, but if 221 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:11.200 people are seeing what they're describing as a large bipedal ape, I don't think 222 00:16:11.240 --> 00:16:17.399 they're nine feet tall. I think when you get into those situations where you're 223 00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:21.759 heightened, the adrenalines pumping, you get in a bar fight with a guy 224 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:25.120 who's five toot six, You tell the story next week to your friends. 225 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:27.080 The guy was six seven, right, you took him out with a pool 226 00:16:27.159 --> 00:16:32.200 que he was six foot seven, three hundred pounds and actuality. The guy 227 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:36.919 was probably closer pushing five to seven above twenty five. It just happens that 228 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:40.679 way. It's the fishing story, right, you go out and catch it's 229 00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:45.080 just gonna say, you catch a huge five six pound bass, and it's 230 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:51.879 probably really closer to three it's probably more like eight inches, but it becomes 231 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:56.679 eighteen inches when you get home. It's that human nature. And I don't 232 00:16:56.679 --> 00:17:00.120 think it's people trying to be deceptive. I don't think they're trying to lie, 233 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:03.480 they're not trying to embellish. It's just what happens to you physiologically when 234 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:07.960 you get in those situations. Holy shit, something scared me to death. 235 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:11.799 That thing was nine feet tall and that had to weigh nine hundred pounds. 236 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:15.400 Is it possible that it could have been six and a half feet and maybe 237 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:19.079 two hundred and twenty pounds. I'm just saying, so I believe that is 238 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:25.160 a possibility. Let's get into the footprints. Let's get into the morphology of 239 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:27.119 the foot Let's talk a little bit about that. Because you mentioned doctor Jeff 240 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:33.359 Meldrum. That is his speciality, as they say, really, I had 241 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:37.640 a conversation with Jeff probably two years ago, maybe over two years ago now, 242 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:44.119 and he's single handedly almost had me convinced that the Patterson Genlin film was 243 00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:48.839 real back then, just based on his analysis of the footprints and the cast 244 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:52.920 from that day, Let's talk a little bit about that, because that's something 245 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:56.599 that I mean, frankly, it's really what we go to when it comes 246 00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:00.240 to bigfoot these days as proof of existence. If you're talking to somebody, 247 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:04.240 it comes back to the footprints, because people are finding footprints. I have 248 00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:08.720 found footprints on our land here, I've cast things that I can't explain. 249 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:11.880 How do you deal with that as a scientist? How do you have a 250 00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:15.720 conversation with somebody like Jeff and say, look, I think you're wrong here, 251 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:18.799 dude, I don't think this is an upright bipedal eight that's making these 252 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:22.559 footprints. What is your take on this? Because when you get into those 253 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:25.640 conversations, and he's not the only one, when you get into breaking those 254 00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:29.319 things down, and he is very good at breaking down that morphology and showing 255 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:32.640 you exactly what he's seeing. What are we looking at here? Are those 256 00:18:32.680 --> 00:18:36.240 fakes? In your mind? Are people out there making these things and they're 257 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:38.680 fooling somebody like Jeff? What is your opinion on just the footprints alone? 258 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:45.000 Yeah, so really quickly before we get into that. The lesson I love 259 00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:48.000 to use when we're talking about the size, because I agree with you about 260 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.279 the body size estimates. The lesson I love to use is because the fishing 261 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:56.240 story is great. But talk to any hunter who hunts big game. When 262 00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:00.640 they see a buck that's the biggest buck they've ever seen, they take that 263 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:04.039 buck. They're sure that buck weighed four hundred pounds. They take it to 264 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:08.440 the butcher and it dresses out at one hundred and ten pounds after skin and 265 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:12.839 everything's been moved away, which means probably weighed about two hundred pounds. They 266 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:18.240 doubled its size just based on and I agree with you, it's your adrenaline 267 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:25.039 kicks in it and your ability to rationally judge things gets altered. I think 268 00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:27.960 your background was in law enforcement, right, you saw this all the time 269 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:33.039 eyewitnesses. It's part of the reason why eyewitnesses are not good witnesses, because 270 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:40.000 there are adrenaline starts to kick in and they don't see things factually as they 271 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:42.200 are. And I don't blame folks at all. I agree with you. 272 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:45.880 I don't think they're trying to embellish. I think that's what's happening in their 273 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:51.920 brain. So moving on to foot morphology first, I don't argue with Jeff 274 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:59.559 is an immaculately trained an atom and morphologist. I know the folks that he 275 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:03.480 trained under. He has some of the best schooling in the world when it 276 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:08.400 comes to anatomy of morphology. He understands the foot in a way that I 277 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:14.799 would never want to because I'm not into the morphology the foot like that, 278 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:18.240 and I don't think i'd ever be able to. He really knows his stuff, 279 00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:22.079 so when Jeff is sure, and he and I haven't had a lot 280 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:26.319 of conversations on this, only a couple. I saw him this last summer 281 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:30.559 here in Oregon. There's the Glide Sasquatch Festival that I went to for the 282 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:34.880 first time, cool little community gathering. Jeff was there. He had given 283 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:38.759 a lecture the night before, and I saw him at his booth and we 284 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:41.000 talked for a little bit, but of course, you know how it is 285 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:44.839 when you're at a booth, you don't get to have real conversations with folks. 286 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:48.160 We've exchanged a few emails. I've been grateful to him for indulging me 287 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:52.200 that way. I would say this, I don't think the majority of cases 288 00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:57.720 are people intentionally trying to hoax people. I think that there are a lot 289 00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:07.440 of times that you probably have a situation where you have someone sees a print 290 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:11.079 in the ground, is sure that's what it is, then goes in and 291 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:15.480 happens to carve out what it is so they can get a good casting. 292 00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:21.359 Then they pour the cast. We'll say this, I don't think I can 293 00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:29.240 make a sufficient argument that Jeff's hypothesis on the structure of a sasquatch foot is 294 00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:33.359 wrong. I don't think that I can pull out the data that would refute 295 00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:38.960 that hypothesis. I think it's a really interesting hypothesis of having that mid tarsal 296 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:45.480 break and having that absorption that way, being a different style of bipedalism than 297 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:49.960 what we see in humans and human relatives and direct ancestors. But I don't 298 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:53.480 think that I could say, oh, no, here's why that is wrong. 299 00:21:53.960 --> 00:22:00.559 And so for me that remains an unanswered thing, something that I haven't 300 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:06.960 seen enough direct evidence of. I know the hundreds of casts that Jeff has, 301 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:10.319 I know the hundreds of casts that Cliff has, know that we can 302 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:15.079 separate all of those that we know that's doing a really good job of cataloging 303 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:18.599 things. Now. I think maybe in another five to ten years we might 304 00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:22.279 be in a place where you've really been able to track down that you're not 305 00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:26.680 getting duplicates from folks, that you're not getting those sort of things. I 306 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:33.400 do think that things like the cripplefoot example are really interesting examples because there are 307 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:37.880 growths and anomalies that look like they're in that track that again, you'd have 308 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:41.079 to be an expert to be able to do that, I think, so 309 00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:45.119 those are ones that you know honestly. I think this is part of the 310 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:49.480 reason why I stay openly skeptical is that I think there are a lot of 311 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:52.759 people out there who are like yourself. You've found stuff. I have no 312 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:56.640 reason to think, Oh, Brian's just trying to pull one over. He's 313 00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:00.160 trying to promote something. You don't seem that way, and I'll have no 314 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:04.680 reason to think that was the case. So I think that people are again, 315 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:08.000 they think they're experiencing what their mind is telling them. It is. 316 00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:12.119 I don't know that the facts match up with that. Their own personal truth 317 00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:15.480 might be that, but the facts might not match up. And really quickly 318 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:21.359 on the size of the feet, yeah, there have been these anomalous human 319 00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:26.119 beings that are eight plus feet tall and have these gigantic feet at the time 320 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:27.799 when they existed, there were two billion people on the planet. There are 321 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:32.119 four billion people on the planet. It's a numbers game. When you get 322 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:34.640 to that kind of variation and you get to the far ends of the Bell 323 00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:40.119 curve, you're not going to have an eight foot eleven human being in a 324 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:45.039 population of ten thousand, and if you do, they're probably not going to 325 00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:48.119 survive. This is why when you look at let's use mountain gorillas as an 326 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:52.319 example, there are a few thousand mountain gorillas left in the world. Thankfully, 327 00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:57.079 the numbers have been continually ticking up for several years now. You don't 328 00:23:57.079 --> 00:24:02.359 have a lot of variation in body size. When someone says a male gorilla 329 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:07.000 weighs four hundred and fifty pounds, they all come in pretty close to that 330 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:11.160 if they're a full grown, healthy, adult male gorilla. Whereas you look 331 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:15.640 at eight billion people on the planet, you got Shack and the rest of 332 00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:18.799 us. And I think that's something that we need to always keep in mind 333 00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:23.079 when we're talking about a biological population, is that the numbers game is really 334 00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:30.240 important. Variation is going to be just naturally increased the greater the numbers, 335 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:34.200 So it's hard to use humans as an example I agree with you that twenty 336 00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:38.960 two inches isn't out of the realm of possibility. If sasquatches exist for their 337 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:44.079 foot size, for a big male that would be on that far end of 338 00:24:44.119 --> 00:24:48.960 the tail, that would be a really rare individual, doesn't mean it can't 339 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:52.599 exist. It just means that the likelihood of it. I think that's why 340 00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:56.359 maybe somebody like I don't want to speak for him ever, but I think 341 00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:00.799 maybe that's why somebody like Jeff would say, old Tardo, imagine a foot 342 00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:06.279 that big, because he's thinking and probabilities of a population, and he's thinking, 343 00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:11.000 Yeah, the likelihood that you're going to get that crazy giant anomaly, 344 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:15.799 this person from Washington State is just going to find it. Those numbers get 345 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:21.720 really minuscule. I think I'd start buying lottery tickets. I think you might 346 00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:25.680 be right. I'm all about the totality of the circumstances when it comes to 347 00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:29.400 anything, but particularly with bigfoot. Let's move in and talk a little bit 348 00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:34.000 about vocalizations, because this is the other thing that I have experienced that I 349 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:38.720 frankly can't explain. I've heard some of the weirdest shit I've ever heard here 350 00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:44.839 in North Carolina and now up in BC, Canada. I have my feelings 351 00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:48.960 and theories about the Sierra sounds, some of the things that people have put 352 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:52.640 out there. But there is the ohio how. I think everybody who's into 353 00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:56.400 bigfoot has probably heard Matt Moneymaker's ohio how from I think ninety two or whenever 354 00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:02.559 he recorded it. I've heard almost the exact same thing fifty yards from my 355 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:07.079 house here in North Carolina at eleven o'clock at night, except sounded like there 356 00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:11.119 was a weird bark on the end of it. I've heard a lot of 357 00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:15.000 things I can't explain that. I've never said it was bigfoot. I never 358 00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:17.599 will say it was bigfoot because I didn't see it. Let's talk a little 359 00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:22.079 bit about some of the vocalizations that people are hearing, whether they're recorded or 360 00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:26.440 not. David Ellis at the Olympic Project has come out with a lot of 361 00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:30.000 audio and a lot of different people that have had things. Julie Rinch comes 362 00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:33.160 to mind here in the Uari National Forest. I had heard David on a 363 00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:36.240 couple of years ago. There was a gentleman I just interviewed. I was 364 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:40.640 working on his audio today before I hopped on with you, who has recorded 365 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:44.119 some really weird stuff out in his area on the reservation he lives on, 366 00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:48.839 and David has analyzed it and he can't find a known animal for this sounds. 367 00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:51.319 That's the other thing. And I've got some theories i want to throw 368 00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:52.319 out here in just a minute. I want to talk a little bit about 369 00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:56.160 monkeys and apes and chimps and some of the other things that we've talked about 370 00:26:56.200 --> 00:27:02.160 on the show recently. Has there been anything you've heard just because of your 371 00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:06.440 interest to this that has peaued your interest, maybe like the Ohiohio or the 372 00:27:06.519 --> 00:27:10.839 Sierra sounds or anything like that you find extremely odd, like maybe some of 373 00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:15.440 the footprints that may sway you one way or the other towards going if there 374 00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:18.000 was something that was going to convince me, maybe that was it. And 375 00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:22.680 stay tuned for more Sasquatch out to see. We'll be right back after these 376 00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:30.319 messages. Yeah, I find it sounds really interesting because sometimes you hear people 377 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:33.640 talking about the whoops, and quite honestly, when I've heard the recordings of 378 00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:38.200 those, that sounds like somebody recorded a gibbon in a sanctuary somewhere. I 379 00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:41.920 wonder sometimes, again, I've never heard any of these things firsthand. I 380 00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:45.200 only get the recordings off the Internet or listening to a show or something, 381 00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:52.400 and I wonder sometimes if people have not recorded things and messed around with things. 382 00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:56.400 Because I've also heard a wookie that was created using a couple of different 383 00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:02.279 classic sounds and combining things. I'm just saying that sound engineers can do a 384 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:06.359 time. I'm not throwing shade at anybody for what they're claiming. I'm just 385 00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:08.839 saying that can happen, and that wouldn't surprise me with something like sounds, 386 00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:15.160 because let's say people are in the woods they hear something. When we were 387 00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:22.440 just talking about people with what they see not being accurately reflected, sounds are 388 00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:27.440 a whole different level. Human hearing is not particularly amazing for an animal. 389 00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:33.079 We don't rely on it super heavily, and even folks who have trained themselves 390 00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:37.119 to rely on it super heavily, it's not something that's instinctive for us. 391 00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:41.559 Talk about being up for interpretation. Now, I don't doubt that you may 392 00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:44.799 have heard something that sounded just like the Ohio sounds. When I heard the 393 00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:48.359 Ohio sounds, I went interesting. I lived in Ohio for seven years. 394 00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:52.119 I spent a lot of time in the woods there. I've heard the wind 395 00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:56.279 howling in a very similar way lots of times. I think there's a lot 396 00:28:56.279 --> 00:29:00.880 of times when folks are out in the woods, they're so ns are heightened, 397 00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:03.559 they're hearing something. Here's another thing. I wouldn't say that the Ohio 398 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:08.039 howl is necessarily the wind. But one of the things that we had in 399 00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:11.400 Ohio that I didn't know about until I moved back there and I studied dog 400 00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:18.319 behavior for years, is that they actually have wolf coyote hybrids there, so 401 00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:22.119 they're not just a typical coyote with that high pitched yip. They get a 402 00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:26.880 little bit of a howl into their calls, so you'll hear them. I 403 00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:30.640 wouldn't be surprised when you hear a bark at the end of something. You're 404 00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:34.640 probably talking a canid to some kind. I think that most of the sounds 405 00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:40.200 that people hear, and again haven't experienced myself. I'm totally open to having 406 00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:42.519 that experience. I hope I do at some point. I think most of 407 00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:49.359 the time they're misidentifying an animal that they're hearing, maybe for the first time. 408 00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:55.599 I love these kind of comparing catalogs to I couldn't find any animal, 409 00:29:55.720 --> 00:30:00.079 any known animal that sound matched to all. Right. To really do that, 410 00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:03.200 you're going to have to control for every variable, and those animals have 411 00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:06.920 to be in the exact same environment, and you're never going to get that 412 00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:11.440 in a wild situation. The wind's always going to be slightly different, the 413 00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:15.640 substrate around you, the trees, the rocks that it can bounce off of, 414 00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:18.480 everything's going to be slightly different. And all of that impact sound waves 415 00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:23.880 so drastically that it's hard to use those as a reliable That is a piece 416 00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:30.039 of evidence. Now, that's not to say that people who have studied for 417 00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:36.519 years or who have lived around them for years can't sit there and tell you. 418 00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:40.960 I can sit there and probably ninety nine percent of the time accurately tell 419 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:44.000 you if it's a coyote calling. I can tell you if it's a wolf 420 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:47.200 calling, because I studied wolves for a little while, and we have wolves 421 00:30:47.319 --> 00:30:49.519 that are out in the areas that I hike and hunt in. I can 422 00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:52.640 tell you when it's a cougar. Some of the bigfoot calls that I've heard 423 00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:57.039 that people claim are a woman screaming. You've just never heard of cougar before. 424 00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:00.519 That's The other thing I love too, is a lot of these witnesses 425 00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:04.039 are man. I grew up in the woods. I've heard every kind of 426 00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:08.279 animal. I know what every kind of animal sounds like. Okay, maybe 427 00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:11.680 I'm not saying I can do it all the time. I've been in the 428 00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:17.200 woods my entire life. Too. There's a certainty and almost a level of 429 00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:21.799 arrogance that comes in. I think for some of the folks who are identifying 430 00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:26.519 calls where they say, oh, that's a squatch for sure. Unless it's 431 00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:30.319 sitting there breathing its nasty breath on your face while it's making that call, 432 00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:36.640 you don't know if it's a squatch for sure. I've heard deer makes sounds 433 00:31:36.920 --> 00:31:41.759 that I never knew that they could make. Then you get into individual variation. 434 00:31:41.960 --> 00:31:45.000 I'll tell you a quick little story about sounds. So chimpanzees have all 435 00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:49.960 sorts of different calls they do for different situations. One of the classic calls 436 00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:53.799 is to do a panthood or a long call. That's the one where they 437 00:31:55.279 --> 00:32:00.359 and they build up to a big call. We had a male chimpanzee site 438 00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:04.920 there I did most of my research at named Pincer. You could identify him 439 00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:08.839 from a half a mile away because his call went and at the end he 440 00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:13.599 went, and no other chimp did that. So it was really easy when 441 00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:16.400 he would make his call when he'd be like three hundred yards away coming into 442 00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:21.400 a fruit tree, El Pincer's on his way. One of my field assistants 443 00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:25.759 I worked with had a really great ear. He could identify over thirty five 444 00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:30.440 males based on their calls, and we would play the game. We'd be 445 00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:35.279 sitting at a fruit tree where there's some chimps already, and the males all 446 00:32:35.319 --> 00:32:37.680 come in in a call as they come in, basically announcing their arrival, 447 00:32:38.279 --> 00:32:44.599 and he would say, oh, dexter, bru bec Basie, and he 448 00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:47.680 would just be calling them. If you noticed, those were three jazz musician 449 00:32:47.799 --> 00:32:51.960 names. My professor was a big jazz fan. Sure enough, he was 450 00:32:52.119 --> 00:32:54.799 never wrong. I got to the point before I left where I could get 451 00:32:54.920 --> 00:33:00.680 thirty two of the males just by their calls. So individual variation in the 452 00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:05.720 calling, right, you can have a species typical call, but then you 453 00:33:05.799 --> 00:33:09.519 put in all the variation around it, and that again, if you've been 454 00:33:09.559 --> 00:33:14.720 exposed to this call twice in your life, three times in your life, 455 00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:22.240 for this certainty of absolutely that was really Again, I leave the door open. 456 00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:25.440 I would love to be in a situation where I heard something that was 457 00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:31.880 absolutely created by an animal and absolutely I couldn't identify that is probably this animal. 458 00:33:32.519 --> 00:33:37.039 I would love that, But I've never been in that situation, and 459 00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:40.799 the recorded calls that I've heard there's either so much wind noise with them everything 460 00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:44.559 else that I go. I don't know where the true sound is there. 461 00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:49.160 I don't know that I trust for myself. I would love to be shown 462 00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:53.839 this. I don't know that the sound engineers pulling it out, putting it 463 00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:57.759 through, and I don't know this stuff, and that's not my area, 464 00:33:57.920 --> 00:34:01.559 the technology around it. But if you have stuff where you say, absolutely, 465 00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:05.119 Hogan, check this out, I would love to hear it, because 466 00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:09.000 I have yet to hear something where I go that also could possibly be or 467 00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:13.920 I can't say that also could possibly beat this animal. It's far more common 468 00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:16.920 in North America than a sasquatch would be if they're around. You've listened to 469 00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:20.760 the show long enough to know where I sit on this. But again, 470 00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:22.519 I go back to the totality of the circumstances. It happened to me in 471 00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:25.280 Radium. I was convinced I was going to be hoaxed. When I went 472 00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:30.639 up there, I had to clear my brain and get ready to possibly have 473 00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:35.199 some experiences and try to stay open minded about it, because I was going 474 00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:37.239 into a situation with Todd and I just thought he was going to hoax me. 475 00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:42.559 But once I got there and I saw the area, we hiked enough 476 00:34:42.599 --> 00:34:45.519 to know we were eighteen miles deep in the woods. There was nobody else 477 00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:49.719 there, and I knew where Todd was. At least a couple of these 478 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:52.519 times when we had these experiences, One of them was in the middle of 479 00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:57.440 the day where I heard a couple of whoops, then what sounded like wood 480 00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:02.960 knocks that responded to me doing a call of my own pretty quick succession there. 481 00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:08.320 That same night we had more whoops. While we're around the campfire, 482 00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:12.840 we had things being thrown at us. Couldn't figure out if it was small 483 00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:16.639 rocks or possibly little pine cones. I don't know what throws pine cones or 484 00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:21.760 rocks in the woods. This wasn't the same night, but a different night 485 00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:25.840 we were having things thrown at us. We heard and I recorded what sounds 486 00:35:25.960 --> 00:35:31.320 like samurai chap into the woods. I can't explain that man. I heard 487 00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:35.559 that with my own ears, and three other people heard it. Todd was 488 00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:37.639 talking, of course, one of the things he does the most. He's 489 00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:42.760 the best at I heard that recording he was talking over, but I heard 490 00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:45.639 it clearly. Ash heard it, and I think Kyle I didn't hear it. 491 00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:51.119 I heard that in real time, and I got chills because it sounded 492 00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:53.679 like I was listening to something off of the Sierra Sounds, which I find 493 00:35:53.719 --> 00:35:58.960 weird because I have some issues with the Sierra Sounds I always have. It's 494 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:01.360 just the total of the circumstances for me. Again, I didn't see a 495 00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:07.079 sasquatch. I can't definitively say anything was Sasquatch related. All I can say 496 00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:12.599 is all of those experiences and the culmination of those things coming together. I 497 00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:17.480 left there feeling that I had possibly heard a sasquatch and or possibly even live 498 00:36:17.559 --> 00:36:21.679 interacted. I hate to say that because that's such a toddism. I can 499 00:36:21.719 --> 00:36:23.000 take you out and show you a Sasquatch. Are you going to live interact 500 00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:27.000 with one? But I feel like that's what happened. Can I ask you 501 00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:30.519 a question about the radium experience? Absolutely? Okay, So It's really two 502 00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:35.480 questions, and I may have misunderstood this when I was listening to you describe 503 00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:37.599 it on your podcast. Well, you were just saying you guys were up 504 00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:42.840 there totally alone, except you're talking about that guy who was doing the solo 505 00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:46.000 and was in camp when you first went up there. Do you know where 506 00:36:46.039 --> 00:36:50.360 he was the whole time he was at the top of Radium Mountain when that 507 00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:53.679 happened, supposedly, I know it was because he filmed while he was up 508 00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:57.599 there. He filmed the entire time he was up there at a GoPro it's 509 00:36:57.639 --> 00:37:00.639 time stamped video. I didn't know that ye and I don't have a dog 510 00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:05.840 in that fight. But I will say this about Jason. We took him 511 00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:09.239 a good ways up to where he was going. We drove him miles and 512 00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:15.400 then he went another thirty eight hundred feet in elevation up the mountain. And 513 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:17.159 I've seen im post videos from being up there, so I know he was 514 00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:21.159 there and I know it wasn't him in the woods doing what we were hearing. 515 00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:22.960 The other thing that stood out for me was when I was listening to 516 00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:27.760 the recording, I think it's interesting how and this may just be I don't 517 00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:31.960 know Todd at all. This may just be Todd Standing's personality. But when 518 00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:37.400 you guys heard the samurai chatter and you're recording when I was listened to it, 519 00:37:37.639 --> 00:37:39.599 and you guys said, did you hear that? And Todd stops for 520 00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:44.480 a second, he goes those whoops, and you guys corrected him and said, 521 00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:47.239 no, it wasn't whoops. It sounded like samurai chatter. Oh yeah, 522 00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:52.599 yeah, and he quickly went over it again. This is my skeptical 523 00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:54.440 brain man. But when I heard that, I was like, he was 524 00:37:54.519 --> 00:38:00.159 expecting something else. He was expecting to be able to confirm you heard whoops, 525 00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:06.679 and it wasn't what he expected. And that, to me is interesting 526 00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:10.440 because I spent a lot of time around Carnival Barkers. I've watched people selling 527 00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:15.320 snake oil a lot of times. I have great respect for your ability to 528 00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:19.039 see through the bs and I wasn't there, And I don't doubt your experiences 529 00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:22.280 at all. That's a guy who's got a real dog in a fight of 530 00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:25.920 proving to people and having someone like you who has that experience where you can 531 00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:30.559 come back and say, hey, it's stuff I can't explain. So that 532 00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:35.159 for me as an outsider just leads to more skepticism, where I say, 533 00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:40.800 what is someone like Todd willing to do to make sure that an experience happens 534 00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:44.119 for someone? And I'm right there with you, and I tell you, 535 00:38:44.239 --> 00:38:45.960 I don't even recall that. I'm gonna have to go back and listen to 536 00:38:45.960 --> 00:38:50.159 the audio because all I remember him saying is no, I didn't hear that 537 00:38:50.679 --> 00:38:52.760 because he was freaking talking. I'll have to go back and listen to that. 538 00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:57.280 If that's the case, then that's something I need to take a look 539 00:38:57.320 --> 00:39:00.039 at, because here's what's happened recently with him. Everybody's probably rolling their eyes 540 00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:04.360 as they listened to this about Todd. It's happened to me recently. I 541 00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:07.840 have admitted openly that I was so euphoric about just being there. It's a 542 00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:12.800 beautiful place. I was there for seven days. I got away from work 543 00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:15.400 completely cut off. Sounds awesome to some people, it sounds like torture to 544 00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:20.159 me. It's like heaven, being that far into the woods and not having 545 00:39:20.239 --> 00:39:23.360 a cell phone, things dinging and going off, and those responsibilities. So 546 00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:28.760 I think I was really euphoric about that. I tried to separate those experiences 547 00:39:28.840 --> 00:39:30.360 from Todd, because Todd didn't really have a whole lot to do with my 548 00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:35.800 experiences there because outside of the time we spent, my experiences were what they 549 00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:37.960 were with nature and all the other things that were going on. But I've 550 00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:42.880 seen it recently and I called him out recently about a video he posted over 551 00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:45.960 on his YouTube channel where he was clearly leading this lady that he was out 552 00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:50.360 with. It was something he had filmed for wild TV or something, and 553 00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:54.199 he's clearly leading her. He's correcting her when she doesn't say what's fitting his 554 00:39:54.320 --> 00:39:58.320 narrative. And I called him out on it and he got pissed off. 555 00:39:58.360 --> 00:40:01.960 And let's just say, when I anymore ran this is what I really appreciate, 556 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:05.719 man, I seriously do. Honestly. It makes me a fan of 557 00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:08.880 yours. Not that you and he had your issue. It's that you called 558 00:40:08.920 --> 00:40:14.400 him out, that you said whoa, because that's exactly my thing. You 559 00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:17.960 want to truly let people have their radium experience, pick them out there and 560 00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:22.960 make sure that they're trained up to hang out for five days on their own, 561 00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:27.079 and leave them alone, don't be there guiding them. Very good point. 562 00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:30.079 And to that point, when I said that, I didn't just call 563 00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:31.480 him out for it, I said on the show. When Wayne and I 564 00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:35.400 talked about it over on that Bigfoot podcast, I said, look, I 565 00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:38.360 was probably guilty of overlooking a lot of that with Todd because he tried the 566 00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:42.239 same thing with me, and it sounds like we have it on recording of 567 00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:44.840 him doing it around the fire. I just was oblivious to it. I 568 00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:46.840 wasn't really listening to him because I knew he didn't hear it because he was 569 00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:50.840 talking. I was talking to the other people that I thought might have heard 570 00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:53.480 it. But he does that a lot. He tries to lead people in 571 00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:57.599 the direction of his narrative, and I'm just not picking up what he's putting 572 00:40:57.639 --> 00:41:00.400 down. I don't pick that up from anybody. If anybody says anything definitive 573 00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:05.039 like you said, oh, that's definitely a sasquatch, I'm usually turning you 574 00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:07.840 off, and I'll have a conversation with you, but I'm not listening very 575 00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:10.760 hard because I think you're full of shit, because you don't know anything definitively 576 00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:15.519 about these things unless you're living with them. I don't think anybody's doing that. 577 00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:17.239 I don't know. I saw something on online about a woman who's been 578 00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:21.880 living with one for a few years. I'm having Janis Carter flashbacks. Man, 579 00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:24.400 you're killing I want to shift gears a little bit here and talk about 580 00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:28.920 something that we've been talking about over on that Bigfoot podcast. If you guys 581 00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:30.760 don't listen to that show, and I know y'all don't because I see the 582 00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:35.559 downloads every week, you should go check out that Bigfoot podcast. Wayne and 583 00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:38.559 I have been talking about this crazy story that came up. Something happened. 584 00:41:38.679 --> 00:41:45.559 We got an email months ago about sasquatch swimming. Because there are stories I 585 00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:50.760 think I've documented a couple myself from people who have talked about sasquatch swimming. 586 00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:52.639 It comes up, can they get to certain areas? Can they be in 587 00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:58.239 places like Australia? Can they be in places like the UK? And specifically 588 00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:01.039 can they get to some of these islands that people have experiences That means they 589 00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:04.400 got to swim. If they're not building boats, they got to get there 590 00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:07.280 somehow, they got to be swimming. Let's talk a little bit about this. 591 00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:09.679 We just did a show last week. We have a newsletter, the 592 00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:13.559 Bigfoot Weekly Newsletter. If you guys haven't signed up for that, you can 593 00:42:13.599 --> 00:42:15.159 do that on the website. It's free. All you got to just put 594 00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:20.000 in your email address and we put these out every Sunday, and I wrote 595 00:42:20.039 --> 00:42:23.239 one about an interesting story. I thought it was interesting about these wild animals, 596 00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:28.920 these wild monkeys. I think it's macaque, possibly lemurs, some other 597 00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:32.440 type of monkey that's living an Ocala, Florida, of all places. And 598 00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:36.880 that came up because one of the first videos that I found about these monkeys 599 00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:39.760 in the Silver Creek area, I think near Ocala, was all these monkeys. 600 00:42:39.880 --> 00:42:44.199 They're jumping out of trees from twenty feet up and they're swimming everywhere. 601 00:42:44.480 --> 00:42:47.480 Everybody's seen monkeys swim, right. We had this lady send us an email 602 00:42:47.559 --> 00:42:51.840 talking about chimps. She said she used to work at a zoo and they 603 00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:55.679 had an enclosure where they separated these chimps with water features because they can't swim. 604 00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:59.719 Let me get it directly. You're the expert on this that Wayne and 605 00:42:59.800 --> 00:43:02.079 I we're hoping we'd have two weeks ago. So let's talk a little bit 606 00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:07.639 about swimming and apes. Is it a thing where monkeys can swim and apes 607 00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:10.039 can't because they're too danse is it the muscle? What say you on the 608 00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:15.960 swimming thing. Okay, it's not necessarily Monkeys can swim, apes can't. 609 00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:22.679 Apes typically avoid deep water of any kind. Like make chest up they typically 610 00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:28.960 avoid. For years, people reported that they did have too low of body 611 00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:32.760 fat ratio to be able to swim. They don't stay afloat is a thing. 612 00:43:34.280 --> 00:43:37.719 Doesn't mean that they couldn't put in a lot of effort and swim. 613 00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:42.000 It just means that their body doesn't float like most humans do. I've always 614 00:43:42.039 --> 00:43:45.440 laughed at that because I don't float. I'm a pretty dense individual, probably 615 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:50.719 in multiple ways. I sink readily. So that was the thinking for a 616 00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:55.559 long time. Then they found orangutans regularly going into the water and waiting in 617 00:43:55.679 --> 00:44:01.039 relatively deep water, sometimes actually crossing where their feet aren't touching, sometimes having 618 00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:05.880 to swim. And rings have really short legs relative to body size, so 619 00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:07.719 they're not going to stand up and be out of the water in much of 620 00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:12.360 anything. And so people like we, yeah, but orangutans, they've lived 621 00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:15.880 in Southeast Asia where it's incredibly swampy, so they've had to adapt to this. 622 00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:22.719 A couple of years ago, someone got some really nice video of bonobos, 623 00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:29.079 So our other closest living relatives same distance from US as chimpanzees standing up 624 00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:35.960 waiting in almost Chess, Taiwan, and then gorillas wading through deep water using 625 00:44:36.039 --> 00:44:39.360 a stick actually not as like a cane, but more I think probably probing, 626 00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:45.079 because if you think of it, especially all of those apes, there 627 00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:47.519 are crocodiles in almost every place where they live. There's a good reason to 628 00:44:47.559 --> 00:44:52.239 go into deep water. You can't see the bottom in almost any of these 629 00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:54.559 waterways, but there's a good reason to avoid it. Not only that, 630 00:44:54.639 --> 00:44:59.519 but you're also vulnerable for everything else because you can't move through it very fast, 631 00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:02.920 so it's more an avoidance. I think chimpanzees typically will not go into 632 00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:08.159 water. I've watched them go fifty one hundred meters to get to a log 633 00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:13.639 to cross over a creek that they probably could walk through up to their stomachs 634 00:45:13.639 --> 00:45:16.639 when they're knuckle walking. But again, avoiding any kind of deep water is 635 00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:22.519 probably a smart move, So that's that case. There are some monkeys Proboscis 636 00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:25.039 monkeys were some of the first ones that they found that really good swimmers. 637 00:45:25.079 --> 00:45:30.800 They'll actually jump in and they'll actually swim around. There's some caque species the 638 00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:36.119 crab eating macaque that will dive and get crabs, submerge itself. The ones 639 00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:40.599 in Florida, there's probably a macque population because they probably escaped from some sort 640 00:45:40.599 --> 00:45:45.199 of captive situation, probably a testing facility. I know that there's a vervet 641 00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:52.119 population that's an African monkey, the relatively small monkey that's in Florida, and 642 00:45:52.199 --> 00:45:54.920 are really adaptable vervets between verbts and the caqus you're looking at. If there 643 00:45:55.000 --> 00:46:00.360 is a coyote of the primate world, a verbetcaq or baboon, So it 644 00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:04.639 wouldn't surprise me that they're going in and wading through water, sometimes swimming. 645 00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:09.239 But no, it's not that biologically monkeys can swim. Apes can't. They 646 00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:15.239 all have relatively low body fat densities compared to us, so most of them 647 00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:17.400 are not going to be really great swimmers, not going to be able to 648 00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:22.440 float, which most people don't realize. That's what kind of allows us to 649 00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:28.559 be pretty good swimmers for a terrestrial biped because a lot of the effort is 650 00:46:28.639 --> 00:46:31.639 taken off, we can stay afloat. That way doesn't mean that the aquatic 651 00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:37.920 gape hypothesis has any validity. It doesn't, but it's a byproduct of us 652 00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:40.440 having that body fat. So yeah, that's probably the case. But for 653 00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:45.320 the most part, apes do not like to swim, but they will cross 654 00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:49.480 waterways when they can. What is it would be Island I think, where 655 00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:53.599 there's been a lot of sasquatch reportings, and you'd have to cross the waterway 656 00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:58.400 unless you're ride in the ferry with an awfully big trench coat on, you'd 657 00:46:58.400 --> 00:47:01.159 have to cross the waterways to get If they exist, if they're anywhere near 658 00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:07.159 the body size a gimbo, it's hard to imagine. The way they're described, 659 00:47:07.239 --> 00:47:09.719 they've got almost no body fat at all other than patty. Other than 660 00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:14.480 females. When people describe them, they talk about, oh yeah, breasts, 661 00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:19.199 which I think is really interesting because humans are the only primates that regularly 662 00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:23.400 have breasts all the time that are prominent, So that I thought was a 663 00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:30.000 really interesting component. But yeah, the males especially are described as can I 664 00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:32.400 get on that workout program? I don't know, they're pretty impressive thinking of 665 00:47:32.440 --> 00:47:37.800 them as again, this is where I go back to them being described almost 666 00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:40.119 like superheroes. Oh and they swim like a dolphin. But there's got to 667 00:47:40.159 --> 00:47:45.599 be something they can't other than drive a car. There's got to be something 668 00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:47.400 else that they can't do, right, not according to Igor Berts. If 669 00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:51.079 they can drive cars, I'll have to send you the pictures of that. 670 00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:53.920 I don't think we're going to get into any kind of consensus about Bigfoot. 671 00:47:53.960 --> 00:47:57.760 Do you did hear it, folks, Hogan said, sasquatch can swim? 672 00:47:57.840 --> 00:48:00.599 No, I'm just kidding. This was definitely not the conversation I thought I 673 00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:04.960 was gonna have today, but I have definitely enjoyed it. We probably need 674 00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:07.519 to get you back again. I think we could definitely go down some more 675 00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:13.480 rabbit holes here we didn't even get into. If Sasquatch exists, and we 676 00:48:13.519 --> 00:48:17.559 can get you down maybe the hypothetical rabbit hole about what some of the possible 677 00:48:17.599 --> 00:48:21.559 candidates might be. I think that might be a great conversation to have at 678 00:48:21.559 --> 00:48:24.760 some point in time. So if you're willing, we're definitely willing to have 679 00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:27.920 you back on the show. I'd love to have you back at some point. 680 00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:30.519 Oh yeah, no, I'd love to have a part too. I 681 00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:32.880 think we should definitely, Brian, it'd be great. I definitely think we 682 00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:36.760 should set that up. But in the meantime, I've had a blast talking 683 00:48:36.760 --> 00:48:38.679 to you. I really appreciate you coming on the show. Yeah, thank 684 00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:42.480 you. I've enjoyed it too. I looked forward to the second part. 685 00:48:43.840 --> 00:49:07.199 They say, you don't have a goal, but you can't stay science steps 686 00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:25.320 step, trying this chart, that chart, everything calling right, pry back 687 00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:42.360 joy from me, joy staying right, you call it right away. Still 688 00:49:43.079 --> 00:50:45.320 still st assssst not not not not dot abouts stssts things used these things