WEBVTT 1 00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:42.280 Welcome to UFO LinkedIn Craigier with your host Alejandrol Lujan. I can't do it. 2 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:44.880 I was trying to beat box. There's this guy on YouTube. I 3 00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:48.679 saw beat boxing and it was really cool. So I tried to do it 4 00:00:48.679 --> 00:00:54.240 and I failed miserably, and I apologize for attempting. Hello. This is 5 00:00:54.399 --> 00:01:00.520 Alejandro Rojas and I am the host of a little show called UFO. And 6 00:01:00.600 --> 00:01:07.200 what we do here is we talked about uphosos unidentified flying objects, a term 7 00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:12.799 actually coined by the Air Force for what they had been seeing, which was 8 00:01:14.200 --> 00:01:18.040 in the forties and in World War two and afterwards and in the fifties, 9 00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:23.560 which were strange aircraft, these flying things that were cruising at very quick speeds 10 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:30.519 and exhibiting technology and capabilities that nothing man made had. And they continued to 11 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:34.840 have these sightings to this day. And I think that's pretty extraordinary. And 12 00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:40.879 the military actually concluded in some of their conclusions and facts, there were many 13 00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:47.519 papers. In one of their first investigations had a paper that concluded that and 14 00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:51.680 this was Project signed, that these UFOs were of an extraterrestrial nature. Well, 15 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:56.760 actually they put up several they posited several theories that being one of them 16 00:01:56.799 --> 00:02:01.640 that they are possibly extraterrestrial. The I think it was Vandenberg actually who said, 17 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:05.680 Hey, what's this. You can't prove this, this is ridiculous, 18 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:08.680 take it out and rewrite the report, and so they rewrote it. But 19 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:17.759 my point being that when skeptics talk about the idea of UFOs possibly being of 20 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:23.479 extraterrestrial origin, it was the Air Force that first came up with this whole 21 00:02:23.479 --> 00:02:28.479 thing with Project sign. You can read a book by Rupelt, who was 22 00:02:28.759 --> 00:02:31.560 one of the first people in charge, and he kind of highlights or chronicles 23 00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:37.159 this whole event. So it's out there people. I'm sorry, that's the 24 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:39.039 way it is. Now, are they you up? Are they extraterrestrial in 25 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:45.080 nature? I don't know. I really don't. I think it's possible. 26 00:02:45.159 --> 00:02:51.000 I mean, it's high technology flying around, but there could be something we 27 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:55.479 can't even imagine that could be creating all of this. So why am I 28 00:02:55.560 --> 00:03:00.479 giving you all of this whole little background spiel. I don't know, possimbly 29 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:06.319 because some skeptics. I saw this little debate and it was on Huffington Post 30 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:08.080 Live and I just wanted to say, you know, they say, you 31 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:13.400 guys jump to this extraterrestrial thing. It's not us, guys who started jumping 32 00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:17.639 to this conclusion. It was the Air Force positing this possibility, such as 33 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:22.000 what we do? Who knows what's going on? You don't know, so 34 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:25.960 how can you say? Also, I'm thinking militarily And I want to thank 35 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:30.520 you, say thank you to mac maloney because he has this radio show called 36 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:34.520 Military x Files and he had me on last week and that was a lot 37 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:42.120 of fun. And mc maloney is a gentleman who wrote a book about UFOs 38 00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:45.479 in wartime, so really great book, and we've had him on the show. 39 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:47.599 He's a cool dude. And I guess he's writing another book, a 40 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:51.400 follow up. This book was so successful, he's writing a follow up. 41 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:57.199 So you're probably not listening because you're watching the presidential debate right Actually, I'm 42 00:03:57.199 --> 00:04:01.159 sure you're watching football. But it's only a minority of people who listened to 43 00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:05.360 the show live. Anyways, It's a fraction because over the next twenty four 44 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:09.199 hours, there'll be thousands of you have listened to the show. Becauld you 45 00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:13.639 mostly podcast it and listen to it at night or on your way to work. 46 00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:15.560 And I can see why you'd listened it. My night because I'm so 47 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:20.959 dreamy, right, But so that's really cool. Why don't I tell you? 48 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:26.879 Why don't I do my job and tell you about our guests this evening? 49 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:31.639 Huh? And this is really exciting. It's exciting for me because even 50 00:04:31.639 --> 00:04:36.600 though he's a buddy and I see him around quite a bit, I'm always 51 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:44.759 excited about it. And that is Senior Nick Pope. Nick Pope was actually 52 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:48.040 for a few years. He worked many years for the Ministry of Defense, 53 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:53.079 and we've had him on the show before. In fact, he told us 54 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:59.279 about how he denied he could not tell us. He said, I asked 55 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:01.360 him, did you have a brief the Queen on UFOs. I'm sorry, 56 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:08.040 but the Official Secretsy Act prohibots me from answering that question. That was my 57 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:11.439 impersonation. It was something similar, But I thought that was a lot of 58 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:13.079 fun. I even said, so, well, that's kind of a fun 59 00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:15.639 answer, and he said, yeah, you can get with that from what 60 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:19.680 you want. But the point being that the Queen certainly was interested in the 61 00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:23.720 paranormal, and he did confirm that. But that's been in news stories, 62 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:27.879 but so have many of the other royals out in the UK. But for 63 00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:31.680 the Ministry of Defense. What Nick eventually did in the nineties. For a 64 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:35.720 few years he was in charge of the UFO desk where they would look at 65 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:41.360 UFO files, and in fact, he admits he debunked them and tried to 66 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:46.680 spin the stories to make them seem silly, and he's apologized for that. 67 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:49.199 Actually, talse Biegel in a story he wrote for the Huffington Post, and 68 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:53.120 so that was very nice of him. But since then, what he said 69 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:58.000 is that he thought they were a load of rubbish. I don't know if 70 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:01.279 you used that term, but many people when the UK often do they love 71 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:06.920 that rubbish thing. And he said, well, he found that they weren't 72 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:11.959 a load of rubbish at all. In fact, he felt that there was 73 00:06:12.040 --> 00:06:15.600 something to the phenomena and it does pose a threat to national security when you 74 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:26.279 have these unknown flying objects cruising around and seemingly under intelligent control, demonstrating capabilities 75 00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:30.879 that we do not yet possess. So that's cool. I think that is 76 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:33.600 really cool. Some people are like, oh, man, he's working for 77 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:38.879 the government, Dude, what are you talking about. So okay, let 78 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:44.480 me get this story. So this guy he's working for the government, is 79 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:50.560 out saying that UFOs are worthy of scientific study, that we should take this 80 00:06:50.720 --> 00:07:00.720 phenomena seriously. But he's working for the government, you know what. People, 81 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:02.680 that's what we're all trying to do. That's Michels to show, to 82 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:06.120 demonstrate to the public this is something worth taking seriously. And if this guy 83 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:10.199 wants to come out and say that, I am very happy for that. 84 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:15.160 He is an extremely intelligent gentleman, and perhaps that is why they think that 85 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:20.079 he is, you know, up to no good. Not every intelligent person 86 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:25.560 is up to no good. I'm not up to no good. Sure, 87 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:30.519 maybe I'm not that incredibly intelligent, but I know other intelligent people who are 88 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:33.240 not up to no good, So you can't you know. I think we 89 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:38.480 get this idea of the wildly coyote super genius and we think, oh, 90 00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:43.279 man, they're smart guys. They're like that coyote on Roadrunner. They're all 91 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:46.160 trying to pull the wool over our eyes. Man. But no, some 92 00:07:46.199 --> 00:07:49.240 smart people actually have a good heart and they're doing get some good stuff out 93 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:53.240 there, and Nick Pope is one of them. In fact, he is 94 00:07:53.360 --> 00:08:01.519 also a journalist and he often consults or at least right about defense and defense 95 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:05.439 issues, and that's in particular is what we're talking about today because there is 96 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:11.240 an incredible story out there, an amazing story that I've been following and I've 97 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:13.360 been talking to you all about. And this is a story of a young 98 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:18.439 man named Gary McKinnon. I'll give you a little background, so we cover 99 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:22.839 some of this in our interview. I actually interviewed Nick just yesterday, day 100 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:28.279 before yesterday, so this is a pre recorded interview like they all are. 101 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:35.679 Actually mostly, but Gary McKinnon in the nineties started hacking. He then saw 102 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:41.480 the Stephen Greer disclosure project, where Steven Greer bought a bunch of very credible 103 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:46.639 witnesses to the Washington Press Club and they all said, I know UFOs were 104 00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:48.600 real because I was in the Molder and I saw them. They didn't all 105 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:52.799 say that. Some of them said, I worked for the FAA and we 106 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:56.320 tracked them on radar, and then the government came and took my paperwork and 107 00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:58.240 told me to shut up about it. One of the guys said something like 108 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:01.840 that. But they all these stories. They are very credible people. And 109 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:05.200 actually I saw this too and I was amazed, and that got me into 110 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:11.039 this. But Gary McKinnon did decided not to have a podcast like I decided, 111 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:16.320 he decided to learn how to hack. So he learned how to hack. 112 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:20.960 He wasn't the most skilled hacker really, because he just went into these 113 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:26.440 computers that had their login, login and password passwords, kind of like liv 114 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:30.840 Nielsen on Naked Gun where he goes in he breaks into the computers using that. 115 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:33.360 Well, surprisingly enough, there were people who didn't set their passwords, 116 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:37.399 and maybe not too surprising because you probably have coworkers who don't set their passwords. 117 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:43.519 You may not set your passwords and you're breaking your company's security rules, 118 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:48.720 and for shame on you for doing that. But then Gary McKinnon got into 119 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:52.600 these computers at Johnson Space Center. He got into one computer because he was 120 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:56.440 one of the Disclosure Project witnesses said they had UFO photos there, and he 121 00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:00.919 says he found a photo that looked like a UFO, but he didn't download 122 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:05.879 it because some guy saw him on his computer and kicked him off. So 123 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:15.720 later on he saw a roster that said non human people on this roster, 124 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:20.679 and so that was very curious to him. And then he got busted and 125 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:26.879 he said because he was stoned and drunk to that. Unfortunately, he couldn't 126 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:33.080 remember the details of what he found. But also he had this awful idea 127 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:37.279 of trying to sell the US government, Hey man, you better give me 128 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:39.000 let me off, or I'll tell all your secrets. And they said, 129 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:41.919 well, you don't really have any secrets, so we're busting you, buddy. 130 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:46.840 Sorry, And so they threw the book at him, and UK people 131 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:50.960 got mad and they got really upset, and this went all the way to 132 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:54.159 the top, up to and this is ten years ago. He got busted, 133 00:10:54.200 --> 00:10:58.639 by the way up to David Cameron, the Prime Minister Obama. Last 134 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:03.000 year we are talking about this, and Obama's kind of like, look, 135 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:05.679 man, this is a headache. Just do whatever the heck you want. 136 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:11.080 So they did, and just this week, you know, the UK government 137 00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:13.320 said, okay, we're going to keep him here. Then we're not sending 138 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:16.080 to him America. We know your prisons are crazy because we know people are 139 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:20.960 doing stuff and then making people drop soap and all this crazy stuff, and 140 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:22.279 we're not going to subject one of our little guys to that. Now, 141 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:26.759 this is an extremely simplified version. We're going to get into more details with 142 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:31.399 Nick, but I wanted to give you some background. So Gary McKinnon now 143 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:35.039 is going to stay home. There's a possibility, because this has been going 144 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:37.360 on ten years, he may get time served and he may go out, 145 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:41.279 go off scott free. Some of you will be like, this son of 146 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:46.159 gun hacked into American computers. They should throw them down forever. And you 147 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:50.720 may be upset about what's going on here and that you're right. But some 148 00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:54.600 of you may be like, well, they should send to Gary home because 149 00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:58.960 he's a good little lad, and you're happy about these results. So that's 150 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:03.360 why it's so debatable and why it's such an interesting case that this UFO hacker, 151 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:07.799 this case should go up to the very top echelons of powers. The 152 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:13.720 most powerful men in the world were deciding what to do with this UFO hacker. 153 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:16.960 So who better to talk to than Nick Bo? So this is great. 154 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:22.840 I don't know who better to talk to, and I'm so happy that 155 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:26.159 he was willing to talk to me about it. However, before we do 156 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:56.759 that, we do something here called UFO News. Welcome to UFO Thinking UFO 157 00:12:56.919 --> 00:13:01.919 News. So let's take a look at some of the headlines in the news. 158 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:07.159 And this is a really cool story by US News and World Report. 159 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:11.120 Now this actually was part of a special issue that came out some months ago, 160 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:18.480 and it was about various astrobiology and some of the exciting things happening in 161 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:24.159 the world of space and space technology. And they decided to give Leslie Kane, 162 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:31.000 my good friend and super genius were Good a call and say, hey, 163 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:35.159 you wrote this cool book UFOs on the record with all of these credible 164 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:39.879 people, why don't you tell us about UFOs. And so they did a 165 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:45.039 story called UFO Sightings Posed Danger to Aviation And they even had this on this 166 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:50.519 special issue as one of the headlines on the front page along with the NASA 167 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:54.039 stuff and everything, and the story was very serious. They took the issue 168 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:58.399 very serious. They didn't make fun of it, no tongue in cheek. 169 00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:03.360 It was an extraordins very important event, just like Leslie King's book getting to 170 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:11.159 be a New York Times bestseller. So her book is inspiring some people to 171 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:16.960 open their eyes. Nick Pope is actually someone who's helped with this book, 172 00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:20.080 but we've been a part of it. So yeah, So they do this 173 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:26.360 story, and they've posted this story from the special issue just this week on 174 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:31.919 the US News and World Report website and the whole thing. So it's like 175 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:37.159 five pages and it's a great story. It's really cool. They talk to 176 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:43.399 Leslie Kane and many of the authors from her book contributors. So I just 177 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:46.440 you know, how cool I thought it was cool. If you're a listener 178 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:48.159 to the show, you remember I was going off about how cool they had 179 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:54.200 the special issue, how cool that was. So you can imagine my excitement, 180 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:58.159 and I can only imagine your excitement. You're probably jumping up and down 181 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:03.080 in glee, and you know what, I can't blame you, because this 182 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:07.519 is really cool. So remember you can go to UFO News ufodailynews dot com 183 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:13.000 and go to the UFO news Feed to read about these stories I'm talking to 184 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:15.879 you about, or if you just look at UFO Daily News on Twitter. 185 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:24.960 I actually retweet them on paranormal rptr that Twitter site too. Here's another one, 186 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:35.240 and this is kind of neat. And this is a gentleman who is 187 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:39.919 an ad hoc professor at the University of Missouri who's just really into UFOs and 188 00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:46.519 talking about UFOs. And this was in a newspaper, the Columbia Daily Tribune, 189 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:50.559 comes out of Columbia, Missouri. So I just kind of talk about 190 00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:52.919 him and what he thinks and stuff like that, and about why he thinks 191 00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:58.679 that this is an important subject. He talks about the French Cometa Report, 192 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:04.720 which was a report done by the French government on essentially, you know why 193 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:10.399 the French take UFOs seriously. So it's another good, credible, you know, 194 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:17.879 serious story without some tongue in cheek in it. They also there's also 195 00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:23.320 a few stories out there about this conference that some more good friends of mine 196 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:26.759 are. I just have a lot of friends in this field because I really 197 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:29.519 like a lot of the people in this field are cool, nice people, 198 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:33.440 and two of those being Nie Torres and Ruben uriar Day, and they wrote 199 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:37.080 a book on the Mexico Roswell. They've written some other books. We had 200 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:42.840 them on recently talking about one of those books. But in San Antonio at 201 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:48.600 the Presidio, they're having a little conference and hopefully that's oh, I guess 202 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:52.919 it was. They already had it, so I think I hope it went 203 00:16:52.960 --> 00:17:03.639 well. And there's a story in the AO online all about that. Our 204 00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:07.319 good buddy Lee Spiegel, you know, he's at it again, that little 205 00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:11.519 character, son of a gun. He's always writing some stories about UFOs, 206 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:17.200 at least one a week for the Huffington Post. He's on staff there and 207 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:22.519 a story he wrote this week is about a UFO that hovered for hours above 208 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:29.039 a family home in Scotland. And there's a video. So you know, 209 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:33.079 of course, there's hundreds of reports that come in a month to move on 210 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:37.319 the mutual UFO network. So what's a big deal on another siding, Well, 211 00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:41.599 this one comes with a video and it's kind of an interesting video. 212 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:48.039 There's some lights that look to be in a circular orientation there and they're kind 213 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:55.559 of moving. So it's just the witnesses, I guess seemed credible along with 214 00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:59.559 their video make this to be a very interesting case. And so mister Spiegel 215 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:03.720 wrote about that not as interesting personally, maybe you think it is, and 216 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:07.279 maybe it is. I could be missing something. If I am, you 217 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:11.039 know, let me know, tweet me or something. But this story is 218 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:19.599 from the sun UFO floating in the clouds over Cumbria, and essentially this is 219 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:22.799 in the UK. It's just it is kind of strange. I won't say 220 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:29.920 that because it's this circular, these clouds that it looks like a contrail from 221 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:32.799 a plane, but it's in a it looks like in a perfect circle, 222 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:37.160 kind of a ring of clouds, which is somewhat strange. And finally, 223 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:40.720 you know, I only got a full story, a few stories because we 224 00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:52.799 want to get into the interview. But the last story is about an alien 225 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:59.200 planet at Alpha Centauri, the closest ever found to Earth. And this is 226 00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:04.279 a exciting especially to space nerds. And I'm a space nerd. I'm gonna 227 00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:12.359 gonna admit that it's even called here on MSNBAC. An extraordinary discovery has roughly 228 00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:18.880 our mats and may harbor other alien worlds as well. Alpha Centauri is really 229 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:26.599 exciting because it is so close. If I were to jump into my spacecraft 230 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:33.079 and cruise to a solar system, my first stop would be Alpha Centauri because 231 00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:38.079 it's just so dang close. It's just right around the corner. In fact, 232 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:45.240 all I would have to do is juice up my rev up my spaceship 233 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:48.000 up to light speed, and it would only take me four point three years. 234 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:52.160 That actually is close. You're like, come on, dude, four 235 00:19:52.200 --> 00:20:00.559 point three light years away, which is actually three point six million miles away. 236 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:06.920 Dude, that is far. I cannot drive my Camaro four point three 237 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:08.079 light years. Await, you're right, you can't. In fact, we 238 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:14.079 can't even get close to that distance in our space shuttles or anything. But 239 00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:19.400 when we do get sophisticated enough to travel to the closest solar system, that 240 00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:25.359 will be Alpha Centauri, and it looks like it's going to be a goal 241 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:30.039 that we're going to want to achieve because they have planets there, one in 242 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:36.039 particular that was found that is about the same size as Earth. It has 243 00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:40.519 the same mass, and although it's very hot there, people are thinking that 244 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:45.759 perhaps at Hartbur's life because it's in that what they call Goldilocks zone where life 245 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:52.000 may be exciting hi if and on the next solar system, there's life there 246 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:59.599 that gets all these NASA people all hot and heavy. So everybody's really excited 247 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:02.839 about that. So there's the news, a lot of fun, a lot 248 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:06.759 of good stories. As usual, there's always news on the UFO front in 249 00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:10.079 the mainstream media. All of these stories, I'm telling you, this is 250 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:12.799 mainstream media. People say, oh, the media ignores this stuff, not 251 00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:18.119 completely. These are all mainstream media stories. So it's really cool. And 252 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:26.519 then I did have some an editorial, some social commentary here on this presidential 253 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:32.160 debate day. I gotta go see what's going on in that debate who's winning? 254 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:40.240 Come on, somebody answer me anyway? Is that? You know, 255 00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:45.519 be nice is all I'm saying. Here's what I'm saying. These people sometimes 256 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:49.000 and you know what, I'm gonna admit, I even block somebody on my 257 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:53.799 Facebook, you know me when I'm on this show. I am trying to 258 00:21:53.839 --> 00:22:00.160 be constructive. And have you ever heard me say anything bad about anybody or 259 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:04.119 ever make fun of anybody's opinion? No, ever accuse anybody of being a 260 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:10.599 bonehead or a man in black or any of this stuff. No, how 261 00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:15.359 is that productive? It's not very productive. And so I really don't like 262 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:19.440 people being mean. I'm not into mean people. And so on my Facebook 263 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:26.039 even recently, maybe you're you like the show, and but you just had 264 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:30.440 some mean things to say about somebody, especially some of these people who are 265 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:34.799 really my friends. I'm not even kidding these Some of these people are really 266 00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:40.039 my friends, are people I really like, and you know they're They're important 267 00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:45.240 to me. I totally appreciate opinions and people having different opinions, but you 268 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:51.680 don't got to be mean, you know. So, So that's what I'm 269 00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:53.599 saying. I mean, there's these there are a lot of people out there 270 00:22:53.640 --> 00:23:00.400 working really hard, and they're working hard to try to get you in information 271 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:03.599 and try to do research to get out information. And you know what I've 272 00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:08.880 seen in this field many times, and these people I know wouldn't want me 273 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:14.000 to share who they are, but there are people in this field who have 274 00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:17.759 been luminaries, very important people in this field that have done a lot of 275 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:22.319 great research, and they've left the field because of all the negativity. Now, 276 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:26.359 I know most of my listeners are very cool dudes. They're like nice 277 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:34.480 people, very very intelligent, kind and just wonderful people. I know my 278 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:40.799 listeners are probably the most wonderful people this planet has to offer the universe. 279 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:45.200 And I thank you for that. So this doesn't apply to many of you, 280 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:49.039 and maybe you feel similarly. I guess it's just that, you know, 281 00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:52.839 maybe you can help me support this whole thing and telling people, hey, 282 00:23:53.599 --> 00:24:00.240 you don't got to be calling people fricking fracking, you know, coming 283 00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:04.960 down hard on people, let them have their space. And there are so 284 00:24:06.119 --> 00:24:11.960 many people that have left this field because of this just huge negativity and people 285 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:17.359 being mean to them and accusing them of this and that when all they're trying 286 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:22.920 to do is get out information and have their own opinion and to help race 287 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:29.400 this field into a level of credibility that it has not attained yet, which 288 00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:33.279 is exactly my goal as well. You know, you can talk stuff about 289 00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:37.160 me sometimes people do big deal, well, I carry you now, I 290 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:41.680 got thick skin. But it even gets to me sometimes, and I got 291 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:45.519 to tell you, sometimes it can be a demotivator where I'm like, why 292 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:48.240 do I even do this? Man? These guys are so there's so many 293 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:52.279 mean people that are It's just like, why do I subject myself to these 294 00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:57.319 people just attacking and accusing? You know, so you can probably feel see 295 00:24:57.319 --> 00:25:02.920 how people feel that way. So this is just my hope that because you 296 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:07.599 guys are special and important, but if you could help me to convince other 297 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:11.440 people to be cool. All right, thanks guys, You're all right. 298 00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:15.079 So let's get to another cool person, another one of my buddies, and 299 00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:23.079 this is Nick Pope and just a terribly interesting interview about mister Gary McKinnon. 300 00:25:25.400 --> 00:25:30.599 I am very excited to have Nick Pope with me to talk about the Gary 301 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:34.160 McKinnon case. I've been following this case over the years, as I'm sure 302 00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:37.920 you have, and in the stories, you know, you're kind of mister 303 00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:45.079 UK for UFOs, and typically the major media out there turned to you regarding 304 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:49.200 UFOs, but maybe because this has been kind of an international relations story and 305 00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:52.759 a government story on your end, the politics and everything in the UK, 306 00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:59.279 I haven't seen you turn to very much in the Gary McKinnon issue, so 307 00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:00.960 I'm really excited. I wanted to talk to you about it because it certainly 308 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:08.319 has ramifications that go much further beyond the UFO topic. Yes, indeed, 309 00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:15.079 I'm happy to discuss this topic with you, but I have you say quite 310 00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:21.039 correctly that you haven't really seen me out there commenting on this case. And 311 00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:26.440 that's been quite a deliberate decision on my part, and it's a decision that 312 00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:33.160 I've taken because very much in the UK, where legal proceedings are still ongoing, 313 00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:40.640 any comments that anyone makes are potentially going to be prejudicial to a trial. 314 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:45.279 And I thought that, particularly with my unique position of having investigated UFOs 315 00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:52.960 for the British government but also commentating in the media on more general defense and 316 00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:56.880 intelligence issues, I felt there was a danger that I would be dragged into 317 00:26:56.920 --> 00:27:02.319 this in a way that would be helpful to none of the parties. Involved. 318 00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:07.400 Now as we'll come on to say, I'm sure technically speaking, legal 319 00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:11.079 proceedings are not yet over, but let's come on to that later. Okay, 320 00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:17.200 Great, Now, I guess we'll start off with kind of the meat 321 00:27:17.240 --> 00:27:22.680 and potatoes of the hacking and the UFO portion, which really, I mean, 322 00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:25.200 of course, there are a lot of conspiracy theories out there, and 323 00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:29.599 maybe we'll touch upon some of those. Really, he didn't find much, 324 00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:33.440 let alone anything regarding any proof, so it seems this is why it's not 325 00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:42.000 really taken as very serious, it seems by either government as something well even 326 00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:48.519 a major hacking event, because it was just kind of a as in their 327 00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:53.039 view, a silly thing, and he really didn't come across anything damning in 328 00:27:53.079 --> 00:28:00.640 relations to anyone. Well, I think the hacking in itself was taken extremely 329 00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:04.160 seriously, and I think this is why this issue has dragged on for ten 330 00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:11.039 years. What I don't think has been taken particularly seriously by the US government, 331 00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:17.799 the UK government, or indeed by many of the serious media commentators is 332 00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:21.240 the UFO angle. And I think the reason for that is that the evidence, 333 00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:29.160 quite frankly, is very poor. Essentially, Gary McKinnon says that he 334 00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:37.920 went looking for UFO related information on various US military networks and indeed on NASA's 335 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:42.400 computer network. He claims that as well as UFOs, he was hunting for 336 00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:48.440 information which he claims was connected, perhaps with the UFO issue, particularly in 337 00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:55.519 terms of technologies exotic technologies such as anti gravity free energy, which some people 338 00:28:55.559 --> 00:29:02.720 believe are associated, perhaps even back engineered from UFO. But frankly, his 339 00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:08.039 claims are fairly sparse and they fall into I think a couple of categories. 340 00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:15.400 Firstly, he states that he saw at least one spectacular image taken in space 341 00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:22.559 of a large cigar shaped object, which we presume is some sort of NASA 342 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:29.799 issue. And secondly, he states that he found evidence of what I think 343 00:29:29.799 --> 00:29:33.319 people in the UFO community would call the secret space program. Essentially, he 344 00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:41.359 claims that he found a list of apparently military personnel and the phrase non terrestrial 345 00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:49.000 officers was used, alongside the phrase fleet to fleet transfers and a number of 346 00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:56.799 ship names, but ships which didn't correlate to United States Navy ships, which 347 00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:03.680 obviously usually have the pref uss. Now, he states that what he saw 348 00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:11.519 was USSS and the implications that some sort of space fleet, and he, 349 00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:15.880 when pressed for the details. He's quite sketchy on this. He says he 350 00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:19.920 can't recall much. He actually says as the reason that he was smoking quite 351 00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:25.799 a lot of dope at the time. His quote not mine. He does, 352 00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:33.039 I believe, recall two ship names, the uss S le May and 353 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:38.359 USSS hill in Cutter, Well, Curtis LeMay and Hilly in Carter of course, 354 00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:48.240 first chief of the CIA, very prominent personalities in the UFO conspiracy world. 355 00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:55.880 Curtis LeMay, his whole run in with Senator Barry Goldwater over what recovered 356 00:30:55.880 --> 00:31:00.559 technology UFO technology. We might have hill in Carter of course MG twelve, 357 00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:06.119 if there was a secret space program, and if this is something that was 358 00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:11.200 born out of MJ twelve, you could imagine that chips might very well be 359 00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:15.160 called the le May or the hilln Cotter. So it's in that sense the 360 00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:19.640 story I suppose makes sense. But where I say this is extremely weak in 361 00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:26.119 evidential terms, is that for somebody who is clearly quite a sophisticated computer hacker, 362 00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:33.960 he didn't have any screen grabs of any of this, and there are 363 00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:38.000 no printouts of any of this. So, frankly, in relation to the 364 00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:41.799 UFO side of this, whole story. All we have is his word, 365 00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:48.960 and I guess the point I was trying to get at was in this. 366 00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:53.920 I think because of the somewhat as seen of an innocent and maybe even by 367 00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:59.599 some silly nature of what he was seeking, he has gotten a lot of 368 00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:04.319 support from the public, and you know, he's been able to struggle and 369 00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:08.400 eventually win his case to stay in the UK. Whereas if he was trying 370 00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:15.920 to find information for to relate to enemies of the state, he probably I 371 00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:20.759 would I don't think he would have this public support, nor would and I'll 372 00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:23.240 get your opinion. Would it be in question whether or not he would be 373 00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:29.519 extra edit or not. I agree totally with that. I think there are 374 00:32:29.559 --> 00:32:32.759 two issues here. The first is the legal one, which I'll cover in 375 00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:38.480 a minute. The second one is the presentational issue. And you're absolutely right, 376 00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:45.279 Gary McKinnon had huge support right across the range. This is an issue 377 00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:50.319 that galvanized people, I think on the left and on the right. It 378 00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:53.920 was certainly seen quite rightly as a human rights issue, and the whole thing 379 00:32:54.319 --> 00:33:00.680 was really, i think, perceived as a David versus Gila struggle. Here 380 00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:07.960 was the might of the United States government on one side and on the other 381 00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:15.400 side this hapless young man with Asperger's syndrome again, which will come on to 382 00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:21.920 in a minute, because that's another dimension to this whole case. And the 383 00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:24.640 phrases that you heard quite a lot would be, as I say, David 384 00:33:24.680 --> 00:33:30.400 versus Goliath, sledge hammer to crack a nut, picking the wrong fight, 385 00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:37.759 etc. Etc. And I think that shows how this case was viewed in 386 00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:42.920 the UK. And yes, there is an absolute difference between, for example, 387 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:50.119 someone like Gary McKinnon and somebody who you might the United States government might 388 00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:55.799 want to extradite on grounds of terrorism. Now let's let's do the law first, 389 00:33:55.920 --> 00:34:00.279 because I think that's that's fairly fundamental and underpin all of this. The 390 00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:05.759 alleged offenses took place in two thousand and one, two thousand and two, 391 00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:13.760 and he was fairly quickly tracked down and arrested. This was not someone hugely 392 00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:20.039 interested in causing damage and towering his tracks. And of course famously he left 393 00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:27.400 the message your security is crap quote unquote for the network administrators to find and 394 00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:31.239 indeed, when he was questioned by the police, he admitted virtually straight away 395 00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:39.400 that it was him. So that's one thing. Now, since between his 396 00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:45.599 arrest and the present day. The important piece of legislation the United Kingdom government 397 00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:51.280 brought in is called the Extradition Act two thousand and three, and that has 398 00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:57.360 arguably changed the position somewhat. But this was an act really designed to make 399 00:34:57.519 --> 00:35:02.719 extradition between the U K and the US easier in a post nine to eleven 400 00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:08.880 environment. But of course this was a piece of law that was very much 401 00:35:08.920 --> 00:35:15.960 designed with terror suspects in mind. It's part of the War on Terror. 402 00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:22.559 It was aimed at speeding up the judicial process. It really wasn't aimed at 403 00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:25.119 someone like Gary McKinnon. And I think whether you start when you start trying 404 00:35:25.159 --> 00:35:31.719 to use anti terrorist legislation, and when you start using phrases as it was 405 00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:37.599 alleged a prosecutor, a US prosecutor used to Gary McKinnon, such as you'll 406 00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:45.679 be going to Guantanamo Bay and you'll be going to fry, it's extremely unhelpful 407 00:35:45.159 --> 00:35:55.159 and it's counterproductive. If anything is least likely to make US Brits sympathize with 408 00:35:55.639 --> 00:36:00.360 the US government on this, it's that kind of heavy handed treatment. But 409 00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:09.159 yeah, so it was completely going after somebody using very heavyweight tactics and legislation, 410 00:36:09.400 --> 00:36:14.159 when in fact, I think the consensus was here that a light flap 411 00:36:14.199 --> 00:36:19.719 on the wrist would have been the best cause of action. Now there's also, 412 00:36:20.599 --> 00:36:22.480 you know, in what you're talking about going to Guantanamo and all of 413 00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:27.800 this. I've made some assumptions about the perceptions that people in the UK have 414 00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:31.480 about the US and US prisons, and maybe that's because I do watch some 415 00:36:31.639 --> 00:36:36.480 UK television and they love to kind of poke fun at Americans at times, 416 00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:42.159 and also at times, you know, at least make fun about as being 417 00:36:42.199 --> 00:36:45.519 maybe a little more barbaric or less civilized. I mean, is there a 418 00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:52.159 feeling that US prisons are much scarier places than a UK prison? Yes, 419 00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:57.199 there is, and I think it's a misperception. I won't deny that. 420 00:36:57.639 --> 00:37:04.719 When you talk about US prisons, the view is clearly of some maximum security 421 00:37:04.760 --> 00:37:13.000 institution. It's very much Occasionally you see documentaries called things like America's Toughest Prison, 422 00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:16.480 and deliberately, of course, it picks the extreme end of the spectrum. 423 00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:22.280 And I don't for a moment suppose that the US government would have put 424 00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:27.280 Gary McKinnon into a high security institution, or they would have taken him to 425 00:37:27.320 --> 00:37:31.920 Guantanamo Bay. But yes, people do think in a very stereotypical way about 426 00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:40.679 American justice and the criminal justice system, the prison system. Again, perhaps 427 00:37:40.760 --> 00:37:49.360 we'll discuss the US UK relationship more generally in a moment, but I think 428 00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:54.960 you would perhaps form in your mind an image of poor old Gary McKinnon in 429 00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:05.599 chattels and lead iron and an orange jumpsuit shut after Guantanamo Bay ahead a water 430 00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:07.760 boarding section. Now, of course, that's, you know, the ex 431 00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:12.599 three end of the scale. I don't suppose it would happen. I don't 432 00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:16.079 suppose most people in the UK who really think about it seriously thought that that 433 00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:22.000 would happen to Gary McKinnon. But some probably did. And let's not beat 434 00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:25.599 around the bush on this again, going back to the law, when he 435 00:38:25.719 --> 00:38:34.800 was indicted by the federal grand jury in Virginia on seven separate counts I believe 436 00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:38.920 of computer related crimes, each count carried a theoretical maximum of ten years in 437 00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:45.480 prison. So again it is arguably the extreme end of the spectrum. But 438 00:38:45.960 --> 00:38:51.599 it is a matter of indisputable fact that he was facing a theoretical maximum of 439 00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:57.039 seventy years in prison, right, And I want to get more into that 440 00:38:57.159 --> 00:39:00.960 night. Let me sorry, let me just want over. Yeah, I 441 00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:06.800 just wanted to pick up one other point I mentioned earlier the Extradition Act of 442 00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:12.400 two thousand and three. There is a perception in the UK that this is 443 00:39:12.440 --> 00:39:17.679 a piece of legislation that is unfairly weighted towards the US. In other words, 444 00:39:17.719 --> 00:39:25.880 although it's supposed to speed up the criminal justice system and ensure that there 445 00:39:25.960 --> 00:39:34.559 is relatively quick extradition of people both ways, the perception is that really it's 446 00:39:34.599 --> 00:39:39.400 to facilitate extradition from the UK to the US, and that it won't really 447 00:39:39.480 --> 00:39:47.679 work that well the other way around. And what I think really rankles with 448 00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:52.880 people who have looked into this in some detail is it's one of these catch 449 00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:59.840 all pieces of legislation because the US is not required to provide any contestable em 450 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:05.000 sudence under this, you can simply invoke the Act and then ask that someone 451 00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:10.480 is extradited. And indeed, it's important that I clarify. Had Gary McKinnon 452 00:40:10.599 --> 00:40:15.920 been arrested after the Extradition Act two thousand and three had been brought into force 453 00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:22.159 instead of before, we probably wouldn't have been having this discussion because of the 454 00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:27.440 lack of a requirement to provide contestable evidence, he would have probably have been 455 00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:35.119 put on a plane and sent over fairly shop. I want to get more 456 00:40:35.239 --> 00:40:38.079 into the politics because I think that's really the most interesting part. In a 457 00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:42.639 couple of minutes before real we do that just to kind of wrap up the 458 00:40:42.760 --> 00:40:47.239 UFO aspect, and I share the same view as you as there's really not 459 00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:51.320 much there is for the reasons that you mentioned. He really didn't grab any 460 00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:54.440 screenshots or anything like that. But I know there are a lot of questions 461 00:40:54.480 --> 00:41:00.760 out there from listeners, and I guess a couple of questions from me to 462 00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:07.000 you would be, what do you feel do you feel that Gary McKinnon really 463 00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:15.000 did see what he says he saw a picture of a UFO from Johnson Space 464 00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:17.760 Center and then this roster. Do you think he actually did see those things 465 00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:23.840 that it's possible those exist. I suspect that in relation to the image, 466 00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:29.360 he saw an image, but he probably and we've seen, in fact, 467 00:41:29.599 --> 00:41:35.320 subsequent to this whole process, we've seen, for example, a number of 468 00:41:35.320 --> 00:41:39.599 people put in Freedom of Information Act requests, for example, to NASA, 469 00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:45.760 asking for copies of all documents relating to the Gary McKinnon case. What they've 470 00:41:45.800 --> 00:41:51.280 found is that basically NASA employees who are curious about this have just been searching 471 00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:54.960 the Internet for material. And I suspect that if Gary McKinnon found pictures of 472 00:41:55.079 --> 00:42:01.039 UFOs, he probably found things that people were surfing for and perhaps downloading in 473 00:42:01.119 --> 00:42:08.119 their free time. And I know full well that many people in NASA are 474 00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:13.519 interested in the UFOSU, just as people in the DoD and the British NOD 475 00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:17.719 are interested in the UFOSU. And it wouldn't surprise me if people are surfing 476 00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:24.199 in their lun channels and downloading all sorts of UFO material from conspiracy theory sites, 477 00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:29.639 from more general UFO site and I suspect that what Gary McKinnon saw was 478 00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:35.199 something related to that. So the irony of this is that Gary McKinnon may 479 00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:40.199 simply have studied across something from the UFO community that ended up on a NASA 480 00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:45.400 or a US military website. But I don't believe that he's seen anything hugely 481 00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:52.199 groundbreaking in relation to UFOs, and I think there are all sorts of reasons 482 00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:59.960 for that that pertained to the way in which genuinely top secret code word material 483 00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:09.639 is supply is stored and the encryption protocols that apply the firewalls, the fact 484 00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:16.000 that such materials on discrete systems protected from the Internet and separate from it. 485 00:43:16.440 --> 00:43:22.559 I don't say that people don't make mistakes in security classification. Of course they 486 00:43:22.639 --> 00:43:25.800 do, and I mean, indeed, arguably the whole reason Gary McKinnon was 487 00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:31.519 able to hack at all was because people had stupidly set their passwords to default 488 00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:37.119 possessions. But generally speaking, if there was some super secret as you would 489 00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:43.519 have to say that a secret space programmer, an absolute smoking gun in relation 490 00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:50.079 to UFOs was this would be on a very close hold, right, And 491 00:43:50.199 --> 00:43:53.079 yeah, exactly for those reasons that you mentioned. I think what you're saying 492 00:43:53.119 --> 00:44:00.000 makes a lot of sense, because even some of the computer magazines out there 493 00:44:00.440 --> 00:44:04.880 had written about how really it was somewhat low level stuff he had to have 494 00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:07.159 been looking at, because, as you said, he was getting into computers 495 00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:13.880 where people had left their password as password. Kind of comically, I remember 496 00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:17.639 a Smoking Gun movie where Leslie Nielsen, you know, got into a computer 497 00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:22.960 by using login for login and password for password. And yeah, as a 498 00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:27.679 script, yeah, there's a script or program that searches for a number of 499 00:44:27.719 --> 00:44:35.480 default password like password and like log in and like popular first names that someone 500 00:44:35.559 --> 00:44:38.400 might choose the name of their spouse, for example. And I think there's 501 00:44:38.440 --> 00:44:45.920 a script that runs through thousands of common terms and when it gets a hit, 502 00:44:46.199 --> 00:44:50.440 it highlights that system. And as so far as i'm aware, that's 503 00:44:50.440 --> 00:44:54.920 what Gary McKinnon was using, what do you like not that's not the sort 504 00:44:54.920 --> 00:45:01.000 of computer system on which if there was genuine free sample MJ twelve documents they 505 00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:07.280 be held. And I speak, I speak as somebody who has handled top 506 00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:12.599 secret code word material for the UK government, and my goodness, I can 507 00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:17.320 tell you the rules for the storage of that material, both on an IT 508 00:45:17.719 --> 00:45:23.519 system and in hard copy are very very tight, and quite rightly. So 509 00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:28.440 I mean, let's just take a step back, and I think it's important 510 00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:35.239 to remind ourselves what the definition of top secret material is and its material, 511 00:45:35.320 --> 00:45:42.440 the release of which would potentially cause catastrophic damage to the national interest, including 512 00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:45.239 loss of life. So I mean, we don't take that security of that 513 00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:50.760 sort of material likely. And like you said, rightfully, so I think 514 00:45:50.800 --> 00:45:54.159 a lot of people don't realize, I mean, not all secrecy is evil. 515 00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:58.639 Unfortunately, A lot of people think that whereas it's just that the opposite 516 00:45:58.719 --> 00:46:02.599 is typically the case where it's protecting people's lives. People can really get hurt 517 00:46:04.119 --> 00:46:07.880 people who are out there trying to do good, the do girders who are 518 00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:14.119 trying to burst the bag. As essentially, yes, most secrecy. I 519 00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:16.880 think you raise a very good point, which in the UFO community and the 520 00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:23.239 conspiracy theory community, the alternative belief community is not widely appreciated, but reasons 521 00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:30.480 for keeping secrets are almost invariably good ones. And for example, you don't 522 00:46:30.519 --> 00:46:40.679 want technical information about how to build a small yield nuclear device suitcase bomb out 523 00:46:40.679 --> 00:46:49.039 there for people to access. You don't want, for example, CIA files 524 00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:55.880 identifying who agents are who are passing information covertly to the US government. I 525 00:46:55.880 --> 00:47:01.280 mean, if that sort of information is close, those people will literally be 526 00:47:01.360 --> 00:47:09.280 tortured and executed. Now we've seen many times in history. Now what do 527 00:47:09.320 --> 00:47:14.639 you make of this roster? And actually, and I was curious where you 528 00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:19.159 got the ship names because I had heard people talking about these alleged ship names. 529 00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:22.360 But when I looked in all of the interviews, I couldn't find a 530 00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:28.880 direct quote from McKinnon using the LeMay and Hillencrotter names. So where did he 531 00:47:29.079 --> 00:47:31.360 mention that because most of the interviews he says he doesn't remember because he was 532 00:47:31.719 --> 00:47:37.280 drunken stones like you had mentioned. But yeah, where did those names come 533 00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:40.400 from or when did he say that? And what do you make of that 534 00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:45.719 whole claim. I can't recall the details of that. It may be that 535 00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:51.679 it was in an interview with Timothy Good, who I know spoke to him. 536 00:47:52.199 --> 00:47:54.960 It may also be that it was in an interview with John Ronson, 537 00:47:55.199 --> 00:48:00.239 the investigative journalist and author who I know as well, was somebody who interviewed 538 00:48:00.920 --> 00:48:06.400 Gary McKinnon in depth. So I apologize I don't have that information to hand. 539 00:48:06.440 --> 00:48:12.840 I think it was John Ronson or Timothy Good. But as I say, 540 00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:20.519 if there was a secret space program and we had ships that had I 541 00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:30.079 suppose names from the history of the secret UFO project, if you believe that, 542 00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:37.920 then LeMay and Hillencotter are likely names. But whether that was genuinely what 543 00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:43.760 McKinnon saw, whether he was perhaps prompted, you know, do you think 544 00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:46.480 the names could have been I mean, maybe maybe someone simply ran through the 545 00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:52.400 names of alleged MJ twelve members, for example, and that would be where 546 00:48:52.440 --> 00:48:58.440 Hill and Cutter's name turned up, but I think there's there's a lot of 547 00:48:58.440 --> 00:49:01.599 information out there. The other people who I think interviewed him in quite debt 548 00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:08.559 quite some depth with Computer Weekly, So that's another possibility. Now. I 549 00:49:09.119 --> 00:49:13.360 think it may be Timothy Good because I did see all those older sources, 550 00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:16.079 but not so much on Timothy Good. Uh. And I read a lot 551 00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:20.960 of the Computer Weekly stuff, but I did want to ask because getting into 552 00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:25.000 I guess to talk about the big conspiracies out there and uh, and there's 553 00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:29.800 a lot of people talking about this stuff. I didn't quite understand their point. 554 00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:34.199 I don't know that I completely do right now, but this idea A 555 00:49:34.199 --> 00:49:38.000 lot of them have this idea that Gary McKinnon the US is being sneaky and 556 00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:44.400 they don't want McKinnon to go to trial because there's this perception that if he 557 00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:49.679 goes to trial and the U, well they're on the both sides, that 558 00:49:49.800 --> 00:49:52.119 if he goes to trial, then all of this these secrets are going to 559 00:49:52.199 --> 00:49:59.880 be mucked up and then the government secrets are going to be out. No, 560 00:50:00.519 --> 00:50:06.119 I don't really believe that. I think that's if people are expressing that 561 00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:09.800 view, I think slightly they have it the wrong way round. Firstly, 562 00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:19.159 unless he's been very cunning and keeping this up his sleeve as a negotiating ploy, 563 00:50:19.239 --> 00:50:24.519 a bargaining chip or something like that. I think his statement is almost 564 00:50:24.599 --> 00:50:30.519 certainly true. He probably can't recall much more than what he's told to people 565 00:50:30.760 --> 00:50:37.440 like Timothy Good and John Ronson and Computer Weekly and various other journalists that he's 566 00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:40.559 spoken to, So I'm not sure that he's got some ace up his sleeve 567 00:50:40.639 --> 00:50:45.239 which is an absolute get out of jail free card. If he had, 568 00:50:45.519 --> 00:50:50.840 I very much doubt this whole saga would have been going on for ten years. 569 00:50:51.679 --> 00:50:55.000 I mean, I suspect that if it did ever come to court, 570 00:50:55.280 --> 00:50:58.719 and it still might, by the way, but in the UK, and 571 00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:01.639 I've come on too that in the moment, But I suspect if it did 572 00:51:01.719 --> 00:51:06.679 ever come to court and he was asked for the specifics, he wouldn't be 573 00:51:06.719 --> 00:51:09.800 able to reveal much more than he's already said. And indeed, the ten 574 00:51:09.880 --> 00:51:16.239 years that have elapsed would have probably fault his memory somewhat as opposed to his 575 00:51:16.280 --> 00:51:22.880 original interviews on there. So I don't think that it was true that the 576 00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:29.480 US government didn't want this to come to court, and everything that's been going 577 00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:35.679 on I mean, let's not forget the US government has spent probably around about 578 00:51:35.679 --> 00:51:44.320 a million dollars of tax payers money on legal advice on taking this forward and 579 00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:50.079 trying to actually get him to the UK. And I don't know if the 580 00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:54.079 letter has yet arrived, but I understand that the formal complaint from US Attorney 581 00:51:54.159 --> 00:52:00.679 General Eric Holder is either has been sent or is certainly on its way, 582 00:52:00.119 --> 00:52:07.480 and and that this is a cause of considerable bad feeling between the US and 583 00:52:07.480 --> 00:52:13.000 the UK government, coming after, of course, the release of the lockerby 584 00:52:13.039 --> 00:52:21.280 bomber Albograhi. There is a sense in I think certain parts of the US 585 00:52:21.480 --> 00:52:25.639 administration that the British have gone soft on on the war on terror. Now 586 00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:31.280 that absolutely not wrecked. I mean, these were these were legal decisions taken 587 00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:38.920 on the facts in front of of of the the judges and the politicians at 588 00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:45.079 the time. And to clarify, by the way, this is the block 589 00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:52.440 on Gary mckinn's extradition is something which perhaps a lot of US commentators don't fully 590 00:52:52.559 --> 00:53:00.880 understand. The decision was taken by our Home Secretary. Now that's Theresa May. 591 00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:06.760 She's a politician, she sits in the British Cabinet. It's one of 592 00:53:06.760 --> 00:53:15.400 those rare occasions where a politician has legal or quasillegal powers and in fact she 593 00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:22.679 would no longer have those powers under the Extradition Act of two thousand and three 594 00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:27.400 which I mentioned before. But this case, as I'm sure you know, 595 00:53:28.239 --> 00:53:32.320 went all the way up the UK criminal justice system, then it went to 596 00:53:32.360 --> 00:53:37.519 the European Court on Human Rights, then it went for judicial review, and 597 00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:44.480 ultimately it was the Home Secretary who stepped in and blocked extradition on the basis 598 00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:49.920 and again perhaps going back to the reason for this, which we haven't really 599 00:53:49.960 --> 00:53:57.679 discussed yet, the combination this is a medical and psychiatric diagnosis. The combination 600 00:53:57.880 --> 00:54:07.079 of his Asperger's syndrome and depression clinically diagnosed was adjudged to make him a suicide 601 00:54:07.159 --> 00:54:14.199 risk. So when to raise a May. Theresa May took her decision last 602 00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:22.440 week. She said there was essentially a suicide risk, which she accepted the 603 00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:28.239 advice in front of her, and she stated that extradition would be incompatible therefore 604 00:54:28.400 --> 00:54:32.960 with his human rights right. And this is a good segue what we're talking 605 00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:37.280 about, I think, moving from the UFO arena into all of this, 606 00:54:37.480 --> 00:54:42.840 because like you talked about, and you can let me know whether you agree 607 00:54:42.920 --> 00:54:51.199 or Philain being accurate in this representation is that he did actually already throw his 608 00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:53.280 ace in the hawk, because in two thousand and two when they busted him, 609 00:54:53.519 --> 00:54:58.400 they said, okay, we'll let you plead to a three to four 610 00:54:58.480 --> 00:55:04.840 year sentence, and he stupidly and he even criticizes himself, I was a 611 00:55:04.840 --> 00:55:09.920 bonehead. This information about this roster and this picture was his ace in the 612 00:55:09.960 --> 00:55:14.039 hole. So I mean, if he had more of an ace in the 613 00:55:14.079 --> 00:55:16.440 hole, he already would have thrown it down. So he tried to bluff 614 00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:20.360 out the US to government. He said, okay, if you give me 615 00:55:20.400 --> 00:55:24.400 this, don't ease up this sentence, then I'm going to release this information. 616 00:55:24.880 --> 00:55:29.360 Of course, the US knew he didn't have anything, so they said, 617 00:55:29.440 --> 00:55:30.480 fine, we already gave you a deal. Now we're going to throw 618 00:55:30.519 --> 00:55:37.119 the book at you. And then they came at him really hard, overly 619 00:55:37.239 --> 00:55:40.440 harsh. You kind of touched upon this earlier in that they said, you 620 00:55:40.440 --> 00:55:44.119 know, they're going to give him this seventy year sentence. They started using 621 00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:49.360 this rhetoric about the biggest hack of all time, and they really came at 622 00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:53.320 him hard, which seems to have played against the US because it then, 623 00:55:53.920 --> 00:56:00.280 you know, created this David and Goliath atmosphere where a lot of people and 624 00:56:00.360 --> 00:56:05.800 luckily, to the tireless work of it his mother, a lot of people 625 00:56:05.800 --> 00:56:10.519 began to come to Gary McKinnon's aid even prior to the discovery of his sickness. 626 00:56:13.400 --> 00:56:17.400 Yes, I think that's that's right. Taking a step back, Gary 627 00:56:17.440 --> 00:56:24.400 McKinnon has Asperger's syndrome, which which is essentially an autistic spectrum disorder. It's 628 00:56:24.480 --> 00:56:30.239 it's somebody who's autistic, but at the very high functioning end of it. 629 00:56:30.760 --> 00:56:38.800 One of the symptoms, as it were, of people with Asperger's syndrome is 630 00:56:38.840 --> 00:56:45.760 that they are very obsessive. They also tend to be very processed orientated, 631 00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:49.159 which is why they're very good. You find a lot of them as working 632 00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:55.119 as network administrators, as indeed Gary McKinnon work. You actually do find a 633 00:56:55.119 --> 00:57:01.320 lot of them obsessed with the UFO phenomenon, which is a separate, separate 634 00:57:01.360 --> 00:57:06.079 debate. But one of the other things about people with Aspergers is that they 635 00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:09.840 tend they tend not to lie or dissemble. They tend to be very straightforward 636 00:57:10.199 --> 00:57:16.280 and uncomplicated when it comes two things, so you don't see them lying or 637 00:57:16.320 --> 00:57:22.360 constructing some elaborate defense or excuse for something, which is why when this was 638 00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:27.039 put to him right at the beginning, he put his hand up to it 639 00:57:27.039 --> 00:57:30.360 straight away and said, yes, it was me. I did that. 640 00:57:30.440 --> 00:57:34.119 I don't say that people with Asperger's syndrome can never tell a lie, but 641 00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:39.039 they tend not to, and they tend to be fairly straightforward. He believed, 642 00:57:39.119 --> 00:57:43.800 going back to your question, he believed he had an ace in the 643 00:57:43.840 --> 00:57:47.440 hole with this roster. But I don't think he did, and I think 644 00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:52.679 it's clear that the US government didn't think he did. I think the US 645 00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:57.079 government did misplay their hand on this, As you say, they started off 646 00:57:57.480 --> 00:58:01.480 with effectively a plea bard and said, look, if you co operate, 647 00:58:02.239 --> 00:58:07.639 you'd perhaps be looking at three to four years. But then they didn't follow 648 00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:13.280 through with any promise on this. There was no guarantee. And again, 649 00:58:13.360 --> 00:58:17.599 people with Asperger syndrome take a very literal view of things, and he would 650 00:58:17.679 --> 00:58:23.000 probably have said on that always, my guarantee is that a promise, and 651 00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:25.159 it's that well, no, it's not a promise, but it will go 652 00:58:25.239 --> 00:58:30.639 well for you with the judge and in those circumstances, he and perhaps his 653 00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:34.800 legal team weren't prepared to play ball. And that, as you say, 654 00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:42.920 is when we got these unhelpful references to frying from various from a prosecutor, 655 00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:49.800 references to potential seventy years now. Of course that would have been the maximum, 656 00:58:49.800 --> 00:58:53.360 and I very much doubt any judge would have given that. But you 657 00:58:53.400 --> 00:58:57.199 know, by that point, by that time, the damage is done, 658 00:58:57.440 --> 00:59:04.000 and as you say, the perception exists in people's mind thigh that the US 659 00:59:04.079 --> 00:59:08.199 government are going to throw the book at him, and worse than that, 660 00:59:08.239 --> 00:59:15.599 the perception. And again this is as somebody who now lives in the US, 661 00:59:15.679 --> 00:59:20.360 and obviously I am British and I worked for the British government. I 662 00:59:20.440 --> 00:59:23.440 know full well the mindset of the people involved. The perception, and I 663 00:59:23.480 --> 00:59:29.920 think it was a correct one, is that effectively the US government was severely 664 00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:36.199 embarrassed by having been and this is a phrase I've heard, I think in 665 00:59:36.280 --> 00:59:39.760 some media reports of this, and I think it spot on court napping post 666 00:59:39.760 --> 00:59:47.320 seven at post nine to eleven. And the feeling is that effectively Gary McKinnon 667 00:59:49.199 --> 00:59:59.119 was taking the wrap for the security mistakes of it. Security specialists and network 668 00:59:59.199 --> 01:00:06.920 managers who who frankly should have known better on issues like them having the passwords 669 01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:15.119 set to the default position. And again the feeling is that what the US 670 01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:20.079 government, if they were smart, should have done, would have been to 671 01:00:20.119 --> 01:00:24.000 say, look, we'll give you a guarantee of non prosecution or whatever, 672 01:00:24.079 --> 01:00:30.360 but if we seriously think you're really quite skilled at this, come in have 673 01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:34.920 a look at our security systems and see if you can tighten them up. 674 01:00:35.519 --> 01:00:39.159 And there's no secret, I think, though I won't go into too many 675 01:00:39.159 --> 01:00:47.920 details, there's no secret in the fact that many security agencies all around the 676 01:00:47.960 --> 01:00:53.480 world do actively go out into the hacking community and try and bring these people 677 01:00:53.519 --> 01:00:58.079 over, as it were, from the sort of black hat to the white 678 01:00:58.079 --> 01:01:02.400 hat side. In fact, the article and Computer Weekly, the longer one 679 01:01:02.719 --> 01:01:07.159 that came out on this story where they talked about how the government was really 680 01:01:07.199 --> 01:01:13.159 overblowing the extent of the hack, made that very suggestion, and it made 681 01:01:13.159 --> 01:01:17.960 that point also that they often will, especially in situations similar to this one 682 01:01:19.000 --> 01:01:24.639 where no major damage has been done, in lists the help of someone like 683 01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:29.199 McKinnon to say, Okay, how did you do it? And you know, 684 01:01:29.599 --> 01:01:32.239 let's fill up these holes, let's fix these problems so it doesn't happen 685 01:01:32.280 --> 01:01:38.079 again. Yes, I think one very important point to make in all of 686 01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:45.199 this, which I think does go some considerable way to explain the US government's 687 01:01:45.239 --> 01:01:52.400 position on this, is the deterrent effect of this. Clearly, there are 688 01:01:52.440 --> 01:01:59.159 a lot of people out there who would love to get into various military and 689 01:01:59.559 --> 01:02:04.559 MASSA computers, not least for the sorts of reasons that Gary McKinnon set out, 690 01:02:05.039 --> 01:02:09.239 And if there wasn't a case like this, I suspect a lot more 691 01:02:09.280 --> 01:02:15.800 people would be doing it. But nowadays, I do believe that the fact 692 01:02:15.800 --> 01:02:19.280 that this has gone on for ten years, the fact that with the change 693 01:02:19.280 --> 01:02:23.480 in the law, it's not now guaranteed that a Home secretary would be able 694 01:02:23.519 --> 01:02:29.800 to put a stay on extradition, I suspect that, yes, the US 695 01:02:29.920 --> 01:02:38.760 government's pursuit of Gary McKinnon is heavy handed and looks extremely unfair, But I 696 01:02:38.800 --> 01:02:45.880 suspect that it was motivated in part by a desire to send a very strong 697 01:02:45.960 --> 01:02:51.480 message to people that if you had we will come after you, we will 698 01:02:51.599 --> 01:02:54.159 likely get you, and you will be facing some very severe prison time. 699 01:02:54.199 --> 01:03:00.480 And I have no doubt that that actually has worked and has been a Terran, 700 01:03:00.679 --> 01:03:07.679 so in that to that extent, I think the American government handling of 701 01:03:07.719 --> 01:03:12.440 this has been understandable and indeed successful. Now that's about the best I can 702 01:03:12.519 --> 01:03:20.039 say in relation to this case. But there clearly you can see the reasoning 703 01:03:21.039 --> 01:03:23.880 right, and perhaps what's going on now could be some posturing. I want 704 01:03:23.880 --> 01:03:30.159 to get your idea on this because of the evolution of the kind of the 705 01:03:30.199 --> 01:03:35.320 relationship that's happened here. And I guess, just to preface this, I 706 01:03:35.320 --> 01:03:40.119 think what's incredible is watching this case that at first was kind of most interesting, 707 01:03:40.280 --> 01:03:45.360 well at least very interesting to the UFO field when he got busted way 708 01:03:45.400 --> 01:03:49.840 back when. But to see the growth of this case has been extraordinary. 709 01:03:49.960 --> 01:03:52.920 From it, you know, his mom with all of her public battles, 710 01:03:53.320 --> 01:04:00.119 and then you have these entertainers starting to get involved, and Gary McKinnon losing 711 01:04:00.159 --> 01:04:04.320 most of his court battles until two thousand and eight, he gets diagnosed with 712 01:04:04.400 --> 01:04:11.960 Aspergers and then begins to get more sympathy from the government as the public is 713 01:04:12.000 --> 01:04:15.920 growing and growing in their support of him, and now all of a sudden, 714 01:04:15.480 --> 01:04:21.000 David Cameron and Obama are discussing this case in their meetings. It's like, 715 01:04:21.159 --> 01:04:24.679 holy moly, it got to the top of the top, and it's 716 01:04:24.679 --> 01:04:30.199 an international affairs dilemma. And of course, and he's even in the Wiki 717 01:04:30.320 --> 01:04:33.320 leagues, whereas talking with you know, Hillary Greek Clinton bring briefed on this 718 01:04:33.480 --> 01:04:39.760 issue. So it's all over the place. And at first it seemed like 719 01:04:39.800 --> 01:04:44.440 the UK or the US was being very stern, and the tide seemed to 720 01:04:44.559 --> 01:04:47.159 turn when Obama went out there and he said, you know, we have 721 01:04:47.239 --> 01:04:50.440 great ties where we don't want to hurt our relationships, and I'm sure we're 722 01:04:50.440 --> 01:04:54.800 going to work this out. It was almost and a lot of people commented 723 01:04:54.840 --> 01:04:58.519 on the feeling like Obama was saying, if you guys decide to keep him 724 01:04:58.519 --> 01:05:00.400 here, it's okay. We're not going to make that big of a deal 725 01:05:00.440 --> 01:05:05.480 out of it. But now that the decision has come down, and you 726 01:05:05.480 --> 01:05:10.079 know, as you mentioned earlier, this letter is supposed to be mailed at 727 01:05:10.119 --> 01:05:15.599 any moment now from Eric Holder, where they're very upset. Supposedly Eric Holder 728 01:05:15.719 --> 01:05:20.400 is not even returning Teresa May's phone calls, and they're making it sound like 729 01:05:20.519 --> 01:05:25.440 the US, or at least Eric Holder, is really upset about this. 730 01:05:27.599 --> 01:05:32.400 Yes, I think that as ever, there is a huge difference between what's 731 01:05:32.440 --> 01:05:39.360 going on in public and what's going on in private. I suspect that when 732 01:05:39.440 --> 01:05:45.280 Teresa May made her decision, given the level to which this was escalated, 733 01:05:45.679 --> 01:05:50.559 I suspect she briefed the Prime Minister on that decision. I would not be 734 01:05:50.599 --> 01:05:57.199 surprised if David Cameron had picked up the phone to President Obama and said this 735 01:05:57.360 --> 01:06:01.039 is the decision. It's going to be made, made public and later to 736 01:06:01.119 --> 01:06:04.079 today, and he and his deputy Prime minister. I mean it was even 737 01:06:04.119 --> 01:06:08.880 a little bit of part of their campaign coming into office that they were going 738 01:06:08.920 --> 01:06:13.519 to do what they could for mckinn in correct. Yes, indeed, and 739 01:06:13.679 --> 01:06:18.360 I think again for any politician this this is the debate, and this is 740 01:06:18.400 --> 01:06:24.960 the way it's played out in the US media people I think in pardon me, 741 01:06:25.000 --> 01:06:30.400 and the UK media, in the k media generally, and I think 742 01:06:30.400 --> 01:06:36.760 this reflects public opinion. There has been huge support for this decision. I 743 01:06:36.800 --> 01:06:42.719 think the people that have spoken out against it have said it was a slightly 744 01:06:42.840 --> 01:06:48.159 cynical decision by Teresa May and that she and perhaps the government more generally put 745 01:06:48.280 --> 01:06:56.719 popularity over justice. Now I don't actually accept that. I think that the 746 01:06:57.039 --> 01:07:01.199 decision in front of her did it was a quasi legal one, As I 747 01:07:01.239 --> 01:07:08.880 say, the Home Secretary has quasi legal powers in this particular instance, and 748 01:07:09.199 --> 01:07:14.320 the evidence in front of her was that there was a genuine suicide risk there 749 01:07:14.360 --> 01:07:19.679 and I think therefore her decision was taken in good faith. I'm sure it 750 01:07:19.760 --> 01:07:24.519 was not lost on her that it would be a popular decision. But going 751 01:07:24.559 --> 01:07:30.199 back to the US government, clearly, given the fact that the US government 752 01:07:30.280 --> 01:07:42.880 has pursued this guy relentlessly for Freudian slip there, relentlessly. Yeah, given 753 01:07:42.920 --> 01:07:50.559 that the US government has relentlessly pursued Gary McKinnon for ten years, this decision 754 01:07:51.480 --> 01:07:59.599 cannot simply be taken without some form of comeback, and a very strongly worded 755 01:07:59.679 --> 01:08:04.400 letter is doubtless on its way. I too have seen the reports about Eric 756 01:08:04.440 --> 01:08:13.639 Holden not taking Theresa Made's phone calls. There was an anonymous US Administration official 757 01:08:14.440 --> 01:08:20.960 who used the phrase totally screwed quote unquote in relation to this decision. And 758 01:08:21.359 --> 01:08:27.840 clearly the US government has to be seen to be challenging this and to saying 759 01:08:27.880 --> 01:08:34.680 that it's a bad thing and who knows it it is something which I mean 760 01:08:34.760 --> 01:08:38.960 the timing, of course, in a sense, could not be more unfortunate 761 01:08:39.119 --> 01:08:46.760 for Barack Obama and the president in the third and final debate, which I 762 01:08:46.800 --> 01:08:51.119 obviously understand is the foreign policy debate, this whole this question. I mean, 763 01:08:51.119 --> 01:08:56.479 obviously it's going to be dominated by Libya, but this question might come 764 01:08:56.560 --> 01:09:00.520 up, and it might be something that Mitt Romney uses to perhaps portray the 765 01:09:00.600 --> 01:09:09.039 US government the presidency of Obama as toothless, even though of course it wasn't 766 01:09:09.159 --> 01:09:13.520 really his decision to take. So the timing is unfortunate. I mean, 767 01:09:13.640 --> 01:09:20.840 just literally days before the foreign policy debate and then the election. It's yeah, 768 01:09:21.119 --> 01:09:27.079 it could have been better behind the scene, behind the scenes, I 769 01:09:27.119 --> 01:09:32.800 suspect I suspect they knew or suspected this decision was coming. I suspect frankly, 770 01:09:34.760 --> 01:09:40.399 had he been extradited to the US, this would have gone on, 771 01:09:41.079 --> 01:09:45.119 who knows for another ten years, and frankly, again been an issue that 772 01:09:45.239 --> 01:09:48.920 neither the US or the UK government would have wanted. So, yes, 773 01:09:49.439 --> 01:09:56.319 Eric Holder has to send his letter, and yes everyone has to play hurt 774 01:09:56.399 --> 01:10:03.000 and offended and upset, But I very much doubt that really anyone was surprised 775 01:10:03.079 --> 01:10:09.039 by this. I suspect that secretly both the US and the UK government are 776 01:10:09.119 --> 01:10:13.720 kind of glad that this issue is now going to fade away. And I 777 01:10:13.760 --> 01:10:19.520 would be absolutely astonished if this had any tangible effect on the special relationship between 778 01:10:19.560 --> 01:10:25.760 the US and the UK, and critically, of course, on the mutual 779 01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:31.000 security and counter terrorism work that our two countries do so well together. And 780 01:10:31.319 --> 01:10:36.399 let's not forget, you know, before before anyone in America tries to characterize 781 01:10:36.680 --> 01:10:43.319 the UK as are soft on terror or anything, the UK has stood with 782 01:10:43.680 --> 01:10:49.319 America since nine to eleven, and indeed many British citizens were killed in the 783 01:10:49.359 --> 01:10:54.640 nine to eleven terror attacks. Let's not forget, but the UK has stood 784 01:10:54.960 --> 01:11:00.760 shouldered to shoulder with the US in Iraqi, in Afghanistan, in the conflicts 785 01:11:00.760 --> 01:11:06.520 all around the world, and men and women with British armed forces have fought 786 01:11:06.560 --> 01:11:13.199 and and been injured and been killed in the same war on terror in which 787 01:11:13.239 --> 01:11:16.399 American men and women are engaged. So the idea that we're not in this 788 01:11:16.720 --> 01:11:23.720 with America and that somehow we've gone soft is absolutely ludicrous and totally at odds 789 01:11:23.880 --> 01:11:30.039 with the fact. I mean, at every level across the British government, 790 01:11:30.720 --> 01:11:38.560 defense, security intelligence, we work closely with the us. We share information 791 01:11:38.720 --> 01:11:42.680 where we're able to, we cooperate where we can, We work together to 792 01:11:43.039 --> 01:11:46.359 try and bring down the bad guys. But you know, Gary McKinnon was 793 01:11:46.399 --> 01:11:50.039 not one of the bad guys, right, And I mean I don't think 794 01:11:50.039 --> 01:11:55.119 people realize and correct me if I'm wrong. Really, the UK typically is 795 01:11:55.119 --> 01:11:58.920 in greater danger due to terrorism than we are, just by the fact that 796 01:11:58.960 --> 01:12:01.680 you're closer to the Middle I mean, you're closer to be within range of 797 01:12:02.000 --> 01:12:09.079 any missile attacks by let's say Iran or even further that there are. You 798 01:12:09.079 --> 01:12:11.159 know, we of course had nine to eleven, which was a big, 799 01:12:12.960 --> 01:12:19.600 large project, but you often or occasionally will have smaller bombings and terrorist activities 800 01:12:19.640 --> 01:12:24.399 happen out there in the UK that often I've noticed don't make it to the 801 01:12:24.439 --> 01:12:30.720 news over here. Yeah, we had the seven seven bombings, of course 802 01:12:30.760 --> 01:12:36.880 on the London underground, in which over fifty people were killed quite horrifically, 803 01:12:36.960 --> 01:12:42.479 and this was of course from young people who had lived in Britain. These 804 01:12:42.760 --> 01:12:48.239 weren't even Al Taida terrorists or sympathizers seeking entry into the UK. These were 805 01:12:48.239 --> 01:12:56.039 people already living here. And again without going into details for obvious reasons, 806 01:12:56.119 --> 01:13:04.199 but security agencies and police agencies in the UK have stated that a number of 807 01:13:04.439 --> 01:13:12.439 terror plots in the UK from al Qaeda and al Qaeda associated groups have been 808 01:13:12.560 --> 01:13:19.640 foiled due to the good work of British intelligence agencies, some of which would 809 01:13:19.640 --> 01:13:26.479 have caused mass murder on an unimaginable scale. And these are quotes from senior 810 01:13:26.520 --> 01:13:34.840 police officers and intelligence personnel. So we are very much in the crosshairs of 811 01:13:34.920 --> 01:13:43.319 groups like al Qaeda. We are fully engaged in the war on terror on 812 01:13:43.560 --> 01:13:48.560 almost every level. And if anyone is seeking to say that we are soft 813 01:13:48.600 --> 01:13:54.399 on this issue, or that the special relationship with the US has suffered because 814 01:13:54.439 --> 01:14:00.039 of the Gary McKinnon case, well maybe there's an angry letter that kind of 815 01:14:00.079 --> 01:14:03.680 has to be sent from Eric Holder. But you know, behind the scenes, 816 01:14:04.079 --> 01:14:10.880 I am confident and I certainly hopeful. But I'm confident too that cooperation 817 01:14:11.560 --> 01:14:17.680 on counter terrorism issues is going to be as strong as it has ever been, 818 01:14:17.720 --> 01:14:21.720 and quite rightly so. It's interesting you must mentioned, because I hadn't 819 01:14:21.720 --> 01:14:27.000 thought of that of this issue, and that would be extraordinary also possibly coming 820 01:14:27.079 --> 01:14:30.199 up in the debates. But I'm also looking at one of the quotes Obama 821 01:14:30.239 --> 01:14:33.840 had in that press conference with David Cameron when they spoke on this issue. 822 01:14:34.159 --> 01:14:38.239 And it is a bit prophetic because I think this is what happened. I 823 01:14:38.239 --> 01:14:41.039 mean, he said, I trust that this will get resolved in a way 824 01:14:41.079 --> 01:14:45.119 that underscores the seriousness of the issue, but also underscores the fact that we 825 01:14:45.279 --> 01:14:48.640 work together, we could if we work together, we can find an appropriate 826 01:14:48.680 --> 01:14:55.520 solution. And I think that the although it might be rhetoric or prosturing Eric 827 01:14:55.560 --> 01:15:00.600 Holder's letter and now this oh we're mad at you guys, kind of the 828 01:15:00.800 --> 01:15:05.640 underscoring the seriousness of the issue. So the issues resolved, we're just underscoring 829 01:15:05.640 --> 01:15:10.520 that it's a big deal and and hackers can't get away with anything. But 830 01:15:11.119 --> 01:15:15.159 finally, yeah, the issue is going to be resolved. Yes. And 831 01:15:15.399 --> 01:15:19.800 one other point that's that's often forgotten in all this. This is not the 832 01:15:19.960 --> 01:15:25.920 end of the process. It is now up to the what's happened, of 833 01:15:25.960 --> 01:15:30.960 course, with with the Teresa May decision is that extradition has been blocked. 834 01:15:31.199 --> 01:15:38.640 The question now arises, should should he be prosecuted in the United Kingdom? 835 01:15:38.960 --> 01:15:44.880 Now, what what happens there is that the police file, this is my 836 01:15:44.960 --> 01:15:51.800 understanding, will now go to the Prosecution Agency, the Clown Prosecution Service, 837 01:15:51.840 --> 01:15:58.359 and perhaps the Director of Public Prosecutions, and two tests will be applied. 838 01:15:58.680 --> 01:16:03.680 Firstly, is there a reason full possibility of conviction, which frankly just means 839 01:16:03.760 --> 01:16:10.159 is there a fifty to fifty or better chance that we get a prosecutors we 840 01:16:10.319 --> 01:16:14.600 get a verdict. And secondly, and perhaps more controversially, is it in 841 01:16:14.640 --> 01:16:20.439 the public interest? Well, I suspect that people will will say it's probably 842 01:16:20.479 --> 01:16:25.039 not in the public interest, and this has dragged on for ten years, 843 01:16:25.279 --> 01:16:29.840 and the uncertainty and stress over that is punishment enough. But that, of 844 01:16:29.880 --> 01:16:34.359 course is not my decision to take. That's going to be the prosecutors. 845 01:16:34.560 --> 01:16:39.840 And it may well believe that this goes on and on. But you know, 846 01:16:40.039 --> 01:16:45.239 in all of this, one phrase that I haven't mentioned, which is 847 01:16:45.279 --> 01:16:50.960 an age old phrase in discussing any legal question, is the classic quote, 848 01:16:51.439 --> 01:17:00.800 the origin of which is somewhat disputed. But justice delayed is justice denied right 849 01:17:00.119 --> 01:17:03.439 and right? And then that is truly tragic in this case, then in 850 01:17:03.520 --> 01:17:10.800 others I agree with that. Yeah, So I think I suspect the feeling 851 01:17:10.960 --> 01:17:15.359 is that this has gone on for long enough, and yes, a message 852 01:17:15.399 --> 01:17:20.319 has been sent that the US government views hacking very seriously. We all know 853 01:17:20.439 --> 01:17:26.439 that now. But I think the time for pursuing a hapless young man with 854 01:17:26.520 --> 01:17:34.800 Aspurge's syndrome for another ten years has finished. I hope this matter will will 855 01:17:34.800 --> 01:17:40.279 now be put to rest, right And I guess, just to wrap up, 856 01:17:41.279 --> 01:17:44.119 I mean, I don't foresee, and I don't know if you do. 857 01:17:45.039 --> 01:17:48.159 I mean, Gary McKinnon has been able to speak to the public this 858 01:17:48.439 --> 01:17:54.439 entire time, so I don't see any other revelations coming as far as you 859 01:17:54.520 --> 01:17:59.560 have always No, I don't either. I suspect that his speaking to the 860 01:17:59.800 --> 01:18:05.479 mere when legal proceedings were ongoing was unwise, and I suspect his legal team 861 01:18:05.760 --> 01:18:10.680 told him not to, But inevitably, when people have got to him again, 862 01:18:11.119 --> 01:18:14.760 it's perhaps a symptom of the Asperger syndrome. When he's been asked a 863 01:18:14.840 --> 01:18:20.439 question, he's tended to answer it. But no, I very much doubt 864 01:18:20.880 --> 01:18:28.439 that we're now going to find some great UFO related revelation. In a sense, 865 01:18:29.159 --> 01:18:31.840 the whole UFO issue was a bit of a side show. That was 866 01:18:32.079 --> 01:18:41.479 what he was looking for the real issue was the criminal offense, the computer 867 01:18:41.560 --> 01:18:46.399 related crimes, and then the legal question and the human rights question about where 868 01:18:46.439 --> 01:18:51.319 he should be tried and what the sorts of punishments for that sort of offense 869 01:18:51.359 --> 01:18:56.079 should be. Right now. Surprisingly, and this will be the last question. 870 01:18:56.159 --> 01:19:00.680 Surprisingly, there are a lot of at least it was to me. 871 01:19:00.720 --> 01:19:04.079 I didn't realize this, but there are a lot of emotional opinions, even 872 01:19:04.119 --> 01:19:08.479 on this side about this case. And I know I'll take a little bity 873 01:19:08.520 --> 01:19:12.399 heat for this, but I feel that you know, justice has been served. 874 01:19:12.439 --> 01:19:16.000 I think one of the articles in a Telegraph written by Jenny McCartney, 875 01:19:16.000 --> 01:19:19.720 I think she makes a good point that the British citizens, you know, 876 01:19:19.920 --> 01:19:24.640 we are living in democracies, they felt that this was unjust for him to 877 01:19:24.680 --> 01:19:27.880 be sent to the US and that he should stay. And it's a good 878 01:19:27.920 --> 01:19:32.199 thing then that the politicians followed their people's will and they're keeping him there. 879 01:19:32.600 --> 01:19:35.479 I think that makes sense. Do you feel that way? And are there 880 01:19:35.520 --> 01:19:44.600 any negative ramifications towards the Are there any defense issues that are raised are problematic 881 01:19:44.640 --> 01:19:48.840 because of this? No, I don't think so. I think the change 882 01:19:48.840 --> 01:19:57.399 in the law and the obvious deterrent effect that the ten year pursuit of Gary 883 01:19:57.439 --> 01:20:03.000 McKinnon will have speaks for itself. But I think you're right. I think 884 01:20:03.039 --> 01:20:10.439 one of the key concepts of justice and the criminal justice system in any free 885 01:20:10.479 --> 01:20:15.680 society, any democracy, is that there should be a degree of proportionality. 886 01:20:15.119 --> 01:20:19.600 You know, it's a phrase that one often hears, the punishment should fit 887 01:20:19.680 --> 01:20:27.760 the crime. And I think the damage and we haven't discussed this, but 888 01:20:27.960 --> 01:20:32.359 the actual damage to US computer systems was put, I believe at about seven 889 01:20:32.399 --> 01:20:42.159 hundred thousand dollars. But the damage to the US national interest I think was 890 01:20:42.199 --> 01:20:45.199 really If anything, this just served us a little bit of a wake up 891 01:20:45.279 --> 01:20:49.560 call in terms of it security. And indeed, many of the articles that 892 01:20:49.600 --> 01:20:53.800 I've seen said, well, Gary McKinnon should be thanked for that. But 893 01:20:53.920 --> 01:20:58.000 yes, there's a feeling, there's a feeling that the pursuit of Gary McKinnon 894 01:20:58.079 --> 01:21:03.840 was disproportional, and I think overall that, certainly the consensus in the UK 895 01:21:04.359 --> 01:21:11.960 is that the decision not to extradite was correct. Being pursued for ten years 896 01:21:12.039 --> 01:21:17.640 through the criminal justice system is I suspect something that pretty much everyone would would 897 01:21:17.640 --> 01:21:23.560 find one heck of an ordeal. So arguably he has already been punished enough, 898 01:21:24.119 --> 01:21:28.880 right and especially for someone in his case with Aspergers, which seems to 899 01:21:28.920 --> 01:21:32.359 be genuine. I mean, I don't think if you look at his interviews 900 01:21:32.399 --> 01:21:38.119 and how he reacts, and just like the items you've mentioned, he clearly 901 01:21:38.239 --> 01:21:43.600 shows symptoms of Aspergers, which makes this even more terrifying for him, and 902 01:21:43.640 --> 01:21:51.560 makes it a danger for severe depression and possibly even suicidal tendencies for people with 903 01:21:51.600 --> 01:22:00.119 that illness. If this was a young altaider sympathizer searching the Internet for details 904 01:22:00.159 --> 01:22:06.920 of how to make bombs and trying to reach out to other people to form 905 01:22:08.560 --> 01:22:15.399 plots against the US government, and of course we saw just recently another one 906 01:22:15.439 --> 01:22:20.920 of these cases with someone arrested in a sting operation who had apparently been certainly 907 01:22:20.960 --> 01:22:25.039 willing, if not able, to plant a bomb. You know, if 908 01:22:25.079 --> 01:22:31.239 this was some person who was trying to hack into US computers to you know, 909 01:22:31.439 --> 01:22:38.239 cause dams to open or power stations to blow up or something like that, 910 01:22:38.319 --> 01:22:42.439 of course it's a very different affair. But here was someone who was 911 01:22:42.479 --> 01:22:47.880 simply interested in UFOs and rightly or wrongly thought that he might find some interesting 912 01:22:47.920 --> 01:22:51.720 information about them, and you know, he's not a terrorist. And frankly, 913 01:22:51.840 --> 01:22:57.520 I think it's time now to draw a line under this whole case. 914 01:22:58.680 --> 01:23:00.840 All right, well, thank you so much for taking the time out. 915 01:23:00.920 --> 01:23:05.239 This has been I just wonderful because I can't think of it. I've been 916 01:23:05.239 --> 01:23:10.199 following this case. I'm very into the politics and everything in the relation international 917 01:23:10.239 --> 01:23:13.920 relations, so I can't think of anybody better to talk to about this. 918 01:23:14.119 --> 01:23:16.359 So thank you so much for joining me. It's certainly been a treat for 919 01:23:16.439 --> 01:23:19.920 me. Okay, well, it's good to talk about this issue. I 920 01:23:19.920 --> 01:23:24.399 think it raises a number of interesting and important points and it's good to have 921 01:23:24.439 --> 01:23:28.079 a chance to talk them through. All right, thank you very much. 922 01:23:28.680 --> 01:23:35.119 Okay, all of that what absolute traitful me. I'll tell you. I 923 01:23:35.239 --> 01:23:40.920 sound Australian. Thank you so much for mister Nick Pope. I mean, 924 01:23:40.960 --> 01:23:44.920 how cool is that? You know what. I'm a newshound and I watched 925 01:23:45.000 --> 01:23:48.199 the news and all the stuff going on, and maybe I shouldn't, bet 926 01:23:48.239 --> 01:23:51.720 I do, and I always have been in a bit of a newshand in 927 01:23:51.800 --> 01:23:55.520 fact, you know that what got me into this because I saw the Disclosure 928 01:23:55.560 --> 01:23:59.399 Project and I'm like, come on, why aren't you guys covering this stuff? 929 01:23:59.439 --> 01:24:03.840 You on the guns? So that spurned me to get more into mediad 930 01:24:03.960 --> 01:24:09.840 to luckily, not attack. So I'm not in the same position as mister 931 01:24:09.920 --> 01:24:15.960 McKinnon, but I'll tell you to me because I listened to MPR, you 932 01:24:16.000 --> 01:24:19.840 know, in my car throughout the day I'm watching the shows. I don't 933 01:24:19.840 --> 01:24:27.199 think there's anybody better to talk on this subcheck than mister Nick Pope. So 934 01:24:27.279 --> 01:24:32.119 I think he's incredibly insightful, and this was certainly a bunch of fun for 935 01:24:32.239 --> 01:24:38.199 me to talk to him about this case that's just been extraordinary. Like I 936 01:24:38.239 --> 01:24:41.079 said, it just blows my mind that, you know, we saw this 937 01:24:41.199 --> 01:24:45.960 happen, this guy getting in trouble for hacking looking for UFO stuff, and 938 01:24:45.000 --> 01:24:49.640 then it blows into this incredible deal like it's bigger and bigger and bigger till 939 01:24:49.640 --> 01:24:55.399 it gets as big as it can get. Practically, it's just too bad 940 01:24:55.520 --> 01:25:00.880 he didn't grab any screen captures or or of any of this stuff, because, 941 01:25:01.800 --> 01:25:05.000 as Nick Pope said, you know, I think what I found interesting 942 01:25:05.079 --> 01:25:12.520 is he did not say, you know, definitively, oh that that log 943 01:25:12.640 --> 01:25:17.079 must be a bunch of bunks, the non terrestrials. So if that's true, 944 01:25:17.279 --> 01:25:21.680 what in the heck? Could that be very mysterious? And hopefully we 945 01:25:21.840 --> 01:25:32.199 find out one day So to any of you non terrestrial officers or navymen listening 946 01:25:32.239 --> 01:25:36.399 to the show, welcome, Send me an email and let me know what 947 01:25:36.439 --> 01:25:40.319 you're all about. Maybe you can come on the show. That'd be wonderful. 948 01:25:40.960 --> 01:25:45.239 We'd love to have you. And for all of you terrestrial listeners, 949 01:25:45.680 --> 01:25:50.319 thank you for tuning in as well as usual. It's been a great pleasure 950 01:25:51.119 --> 01:25:58.640 and I will talk to you all next week. Moochachas emuchachos. Until then, 951 01:26:00.239 --> 01:26:03.880 you with some music from my good buddy and the guys at you first 952 01:26:04.039 --> 01:28:12.880 minute and here we got distas