WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:04.000 And like today, if you were a business that is excepting a payment in 2 00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:07.919 a volatile asset, it's a ton of work because it's like, what are 3 00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:11.560 you My favorite problem with this is like how do you handle refunds? So 4 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:16.160 like I buy I buy a thousand dollars laptop at bitcoint and then four weeks 5 00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:20.239 later I return it. Do I get back bitcoint And it's like, was 6 00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:24.640 that business then forced to hold bitcoin this full time and take that exposure on 7 00:00:24.679 --> 00:00:28.399 their balance sheet? Like or are they paying you know, high fees to 8 00:00:28.440 --> 00:00:33.320 hedg you against it? It's like you've just created Like I believe that crypto 9 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:37.799 has the opportunity to actually simplify a ton for businesses, Like that's why they 10 00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:43.320 shouldn't they should be excepting payment in crypto, But forcing them to then take 11 00:00:43.359 --> 00:00:47.039 on a bunch of additional complexity to do it kind of defeats the purpose. 12 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:57.840 This content is brought to you by bitco, which is one of the top 13 00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:03.679 crypto custodians in the crypto industry. Bitco works with many big companies and brands 14 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:08.239 such as Pantera Capital, Bitstamp, and bitcoin Ira. Nike also selected Bitco 15 00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:14.799 to power its wallets for its NFTs and bitco has many great services such as 16 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:19.760 hot wallets, custodial wallets, self managed cold wallets, and NFT wallets. 17 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:26.319 Many institutions trust bitco with its top level security and incredible services such as being 18 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:30.719 able to deploy your capital while it's in custody, which includes lending, borrowing, 19 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:34.079 trading, staking, DeFi access and more. If you'd like to learn 20 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:38.599 more about bitco, please visit bitgo dot com link in the description. Welcome 21 00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:42.159 to the Thinking Crypto Podcasts. You're home for cryptocurrency news and interviews. With 22 00:01:42.280 --> 00:01:46.879 me. Today is Ben Mills, who is the CEO and co founder of 23 00:01:47.000 --> 00:01:49.760 Meso. Ben, great to have you on the podcast. Great to be 24 00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:53.640 here, Thanks for having me, Tony so Ben, I'm excited to learn 25 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:57.480 about Miso and talk about all the great things you're doing that. I definitely 26 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:00.920 want to learn about your background because you spend some time at Venmo and Salona 27 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:05.280 Labs. So tell us where you're from and your professional journey. Yeah, 28 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:08.240 sounds great. I've been building in fintech and payments for most of my career. 29 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:12.599 I started out at a company called Braintree, which is like a B 30 00:02:12.639 --> 00:02:15.280 to B payments company similar to Stripe, and then I went on to lead 31 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:21.599 product at Venmo. Honestly, I didn't expect to get into payments. Like 32 00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:25.199 the when I remember when I was interviewing at Braintree and brain Tree at the 33 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:30.159 time was like, you know, an early stage, pre funded startup and 34 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:34.560 basically like an apartment in Chicago. I remember asking them, I'm like, 35 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:38.280 so, like what's left to build? Like you have like credit card processing, 36 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:40.719 Like isn't that it? And it's like little did I know how much 37 00:02:40.840 --> 00:02:46.599 more you could go into payments? But I'm I'm an engineer, like by 38 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:50.000 the like background, like that's where I started from. And what I love 39 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:55.319 about fintech and payments is it's like this perfect intersection of like technology and engineering, 40 00:02:55.719 --> 00:03:00.439 design and UX and business. It's just fascinating to me. But Venmo 41 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:06.479 really is where I fell in love with like consumer financial products. Like the 42 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:09.840 other thing I really like about payments is like you can really directly impact people's 43 00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:15.479 lives, Like helping people with their money is like crucial. It also means 44 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:17.919 you can when you screw up, it can be very very bad. But 45 00:03:19.479 --> 00:03:23.439 there's just was nothing like being able to do that directly with consumers through Venmo 46 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:27.280 and a big, big part of my time at Venmo is trying to figure 47 00:03:27.319 --> 00:03:30.240 out, like how do we turn this into a business. P to B 48 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:35.599 payments has a bunch of properties that are super exciting, but it costs a 49 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:38.159 lot of money to run, and so like Venmo was basically burning money offering 50 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:43.159 their existing products, and like the thing that really started to click it is 51 00:03:43.159 --> 00:03:46.280 when we started to offer things like a debit card or banking like products. 52 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:52.479 But through that journey, I came kind of like like face to face with 53 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:58.280 tradify, like the banking system, the legacy payment systems, and it just 54 00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:01.199 became clear to me that there really isn't like a future here, Like what 55 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:04.840 we're really all doing is like putting lipstick on a pig, and like maybe 56 00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:08.960 we can temporarily be better, but like we're going to get dragged down to 57 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:14.599 the mean, which is like the banking banks of today. So it kind 58 00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:18.199 of made me a bit jaded on fintech overall, and so I totally went 59 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:23.480 into something different for a while, worked in education technology, and then after 60 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:26.680 we sold that startup, was trying to figure out what to do and my 61 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:30.120 now co founder was like, you have to take another look at crypto and 62 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:33.199 blockchain, and that pulled down the rabbit hole and that's where we are today. 63 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:39.040 Wow. And how did you end up at Solona Labs. Yeah, 64 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:43.639 I in like twenty twenties when I was like, Okay, I want to 65 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:48.120 go full time crypto. I was very kind of convinced of the overall like 66 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:53.439 vision of a blockchain and crypto, but I still felt like there was like 67 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:57.920 a ton of like open space of like how is this all going to develop? 68 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:01.199 And so I really wanted to join something that was more like a foundation's 69 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:04.120 or a labs would let me get that kind of like ten thousands of a 70 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:10.079 view. And it just ended up working out perfect because Solana Labs at the 71 00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:14.240 time was trying to make a big push into merchant based payments with Salana pay, 72 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:16.560 and so I joined up with that team and helped them kind of like 73 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:20.680 get that off the ground and get a bunch of experiments going there. Now, 74 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:24.240 I have a follow up question about what you mentioned at your time at 75 00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:28.279 Venmo. If I heard you correctly, do you say that peer to peer 76 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:32.360 payments when Venmo is actually not profitable for the company. Yeah, I mean 77 00:05:32.439 --> 00:05:38.000 P to P payments general, Like one of the big things that Venmo did, 78 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:41.839 is it it pushed all p topps to be free, which just makes 79 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:46.120 sense. It's like it's really odd that users would have to pay money to 80 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:48.680 move their own money, Like that just doesn't make any sense. But on 81 00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:55.480 the back end of that, like Venmo is still processing debit card payments, 82 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:59.920 making bank transfers, all of those things in curve fees and costs that they're 83 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:02.680 not passing on to douce or they're just absorbing. And so like ven we'll 84 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:08.199 makes you know, some amount of revenue off interest of the funds will help 85 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:10.759 on the platform. You know, over the last couple of years, that's 86 00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:14.519 actually become very meaningful, but like who knows what happens with that long term. 87 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:17.240 And then they make some amount of money getting fees from like value ed 88 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:21.240 services, Like if you want to instantly move money out of Venom back into 89 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:26.920 your bank, you're you're paying a small fy on that. But like neither 90 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:31.680 of those things come close to covering the full cost of the payments involving P 91 00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:38.360 two P do you believe? And I know we're gonna talk about Messo, 92 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:44.079 but obviously I'm just very fascinated with PayPal and Vedmon what they're doing, especially 93 00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:47.600 with the introduction of their stable coin p y u s D. Do you 94 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:53.600 think introduction of that stable coin and using it for settlement and all these things 95 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:58.759 would help them to be more profitable where absolutely? Yeah, absolutely, I 96 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:01.439 mean like that's to me, like in some ways I look at a lot 97 00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:06.399 of fintech as just like band aids over like the root problem, where the 98 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:12.600 root problem is just like money does not move instantly, and like there and 99 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:15.360 like, because it doesn't move instantly, if you want it to feel instant, 100 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:18.759 you just start layering on like counter party, at the counterparty, at 101 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:24.120 the counterparty, and so in a world where things are all moving on chain, 102 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:27.600 you don't have that fee anymore. So that like, yes, you 103 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:31.480 can absolutely do that. Yeah. I guess that's one of the big killer 104 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:36.160 apps of crypto, right, stable coins and instant settlement. Everything is instance 105 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:42.439 instantaneous and verifiable versus like you were saying, the band aid on these different 106 00:07:42.439 --> 00:07:46.079 things trying to duct tape at different things behind the scenes, and obviously the 107 00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:50.279 consumer doesn't know what's happening, but the businesses have to go through all these 108 00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:56.000 processes and all these extra layers of work. Absolutely, yeah, I mean, 109 00:07:56.040 --> 00:08:01.560 it's just the whatever you can do to kind of like minimizer dependencies is 110 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:03.639 a good thing. It just is going to make the like the product and 111 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:07.319 the experience faster and more consistent cheaper. So yeah, I think that's huge, 112 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:13.240 And I just generally think PayPal is smart to lean into crypto, Like 113 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:18.920 I think that I generally expect that if blockchain really does kind of break through 114 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:22.720 to the next level of adoption, there's this big open question of like what 115 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:26.480 happens to the fintech landscape, because I do think like a lot of the 116 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:31.440 existing market structure of fintech is based on the foundation of like money movement is 117 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:37.679 not instant and like and is highly controlled and not open, and so like 118 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:41.840 in a world where that changes, the kind of stack of what you need 119 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:46.240 to like build finance products, et cetera is just going to change. And 120 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:50.919 so I think that you know, teams like a Visa, PayPal now recently 121 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:54.279 Stripe leaning in I think makes a lot of sense because it's like it gives 122 00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:58.519 those teams the opportunity to kind of figure out how to navigate that as it 123 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:05.159 happens. I guess that's part of the macro battle that we're seeing with the 124 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:09.120 incumbents, the banking folks who are getting disrupted, who have controlled the payment 125 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:11.879 gateways and all these high fees and whether it be crossboarder payments or what it. 126 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:16.320 Maybe you know, Crypto is a disruptor of that, a big threat 127 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:20.080 to their business model. But that's the nature of disruptive tech. So I 128 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:22.879 guess that's part of why we're seeing a lot of the battle from the trat 129 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:28.360 FI as well. Absolutely, but I mean it is like I when I 130 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:31.600 was I spent time with Visa as part of Salona early on, and it 131 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:35.480 was one of the first big surprises for me when I was kind of on 132 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:41.120 the inside of the industry was how optimistic and open they were. Like I 133 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:46.799 was expecting that, like best case, like a lot of the big incumbents 134 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:50.519 would just be like ambivalent, like we were like yeah, I don't care 135 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:54.039 either way. But I also expected a lot of them to be hostile. 136 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:58.919 But I've honestly found the opposite, Like there's definitely another side to that, 137 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:01.600 and like this gets a little bit more into Mezzo, but I think if 138 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:07.480 you want to actually build like interceptions between crypto and and FIAT, that is 139 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:11.559 becoming increasingly harder and like that. You know, some of that is the 140 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:16.559 fallout from last cycle with FTX and Terra, and then some of it is 141 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:20.559 frankly fallout of just bank as a service in general. It's like what, 142 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:22.879 you know, Like what I think a lot of people in crypto probably don't 143 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:28.399 see is like during that period last year that a lot of us interpreted as 144 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:33.519 like choke point and like the government coming after crypto was actually the government coming 145 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:37.000 after a lot of fintech overall, because like you know, the low indust 146 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:41.600 rate environment created a bunch of like neo banks and like different type of crypto 147 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:45.919 apps that in some ways kind of mirror what we saw on the inside with 148 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:48.399 like Seafi, like Celsius, et cetera. It's just like that was happening 149 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:52.799 in tradi Fi two and a lot of those companies either like went out of 150 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:56.320 business, laws us or funds just generally did things that were were not above 151 00:10:56.360 --> 00:11:01.480 board. And as a result of that, a lot of the underlying infrastructure 152 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:03.279 that has been built over the least couple of years to enable these kind of 153 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:07.279 like new financial products is coming into questions. It's just like, hey, 154 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:11.960 wait a second, you're you're trying to say that you're you're going to act 155 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:16.759 as kind of like a layer between banks and these these tech teams, and 156 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:20.440 that like you'll be able to, you know, uphold the same compliance and 157 00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:24.399 risk insecurity standards. But like that's not proving to be true, and so 158 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:28.120 like what should we do about that now? And so that that to build 159 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:31.759 in the intersection of fintech in payments, it's definitely getting a lot harder. 160 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:35.960 But generally, I think from a consumer perspective, it feels like more and 161 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:43.000 more we're seeing institutional adoption. Yeah, I certainly. I think everybody thinks 162 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:46.080 of Jamie Diamond when they think about someone who's a critic and kind of hates 163 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:50.639 what's happening. But to your point, I've seen Visa, I've seen some 164 00:11:50.679 --> 00:11:54.000 of these different companies start to embrace it. And it makes sense, right 165 00:11:54.000 --> 00:12:01.519 because adapt or to it or die right disruptions here, So talk about MESO 166 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:07.360 and tell us about the history the services, why you decided to start this 167 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:13.080 company. Yeah, I think we've seen pretty consistently that every time there's a 168 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:20.000 massive like platform disruption, you know, let's say like the Internet and mobile 169 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:24.440 is the two most recent examples, it creates an opportunity for like one or 170 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:28.360 a few platforms to really win when it comes to payments, and so, 171 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:33.279 like I think you could argue that like PayPal and Lisa really want at the 172 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:37.840 internet, and then like with with mobile, you have Apple, Google, 173 00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:43.799 Stripe, a few others that are really growing and dominated. But the way 174 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:48.000 we look at it on the inside is it's how do you figure out the 175 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:50.960 right abstraction of like the legacy payment system to this new paradigm, Like that's 176 00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:56.600 really the job to do, and like whoever figures out that right abstraction, 177 00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:00.240 like the way to make it flexible for this kind of like next generation into 178 00:13:00.279 --> 00:13:03.360 platforms, like they are most likely the winner. And so when we looked 179 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:07.919 at the space, like when I when I was working at Salona Labs, 180 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:11.919 like one of the things we spent some time thinking through is like should we 181 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:16.440 build the consumer product? Should we build a walllet? Like the the idea 182 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:22.120 of like commerce or like you know, e commerce, like in person commerce 183 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:26.279 via crypto rails is super obvious, But the problem is it's like a chicken 184 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:31.039 and egg problem, Like to get a business to adopt a new payment method, 185 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:35.399 there needs to be consumers already using that and like to get consumers to 186 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:39.399 use it, there needs to be places for them to buy with it, 187 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:43.799 so you need to figure out how to crack that in some way. Generally, 188 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:46.600 I think it's gonna we're going to have a better strit at cracking the 189 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:50.320 consumer side, which led us to starting to explore this stuff and as we 190 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:54.519 dug in to being like, okay, well, what infrastructure exists if we 191 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:56.120 want the user to be able to, you know, do what they do 192 00:13:56.159 --> 00:14:01.600 if they're using Venmo or cash app or coinbase where they can just connect a 193 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:05.519 card or a bank account and then like over the course of using that app, 194 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:07.039 they can just instantly move money in and out. How can we do 195 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:11.240 that too? And we were surprised that, like there just wasn't an answer. 196 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:16.720 Like the closest thing were the like on and off ramp providers, But 197 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:20.679 in many ways like that, they're building a product that feels like Web one 198 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:24.960 point zero, where like we're the payments worked pre strip in Braintree was like 199 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:28.279 you redirected the user to some page. They get to this checkout page, 200 00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:31.200 the enter their credit cor information, they get redirected back to like where they 201 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:35.120 were, and they like go on with their day. There's a reason that 202 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:39.120 didn't stick around. It's just because it's it's a submar experience. It like 203 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:45.399 it it just adds a bunch of friction for not a good benefit. So 204 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:48.679 yeah, that I think that was like the the initial insight that led to 205 00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:54.440 meso was, hey, if you you know, if you're building a wall 206 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:58.039 at a decentralized app, really any kind of crypto app, you need to 207 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:01.399 have the same level of kind of conducted with Fiat that web two companies have, 208 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:07.039 but you like you also need to do that in a way that's like 209 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:13.080 even more abstracted because it's the core challenge of like FIAT on an off rampion 210 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:18.720 or just moving money between crypto and fiat generally is it is classified as money 211 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:22.000 transmission. So like Stripe, Braintree, you know, all these companies have 212 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:26.759 solved payments, is you know generally what people think, but in reality they 213 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:31.799 solved e commerce. And so like that's why you'll see, you know, 214 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:35.480 there's some awesome experiences involving using like a credit card to buy an NFT. 215 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:41.279 Like one of the reasons those experiences are possible is because that is classified as 216 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:43.720 e commerce, not money transmission, and so like, when you're doing money 217 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:50.159 transmission, there's a bunch of work that has to go into compliance, risk, 218 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:54.360 et cetera. And asking teams to take that on when they are like 219 00:15:54.399 --> 00:16:00.960 a small, scrappy crypto team just makes no sense. And so at a 220 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:03.360 lot of our vision is is like, how do we actually abstract this stuff 221 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:07.840 while still giving those devs the same level of control that they have they were 222 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:14.279 using something like a stripe. So let's do like a mock scenario here for 223 00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:17.440 the folks who are listening, because this is very much behind the scenes, 224 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:22.960 right. And so let's say I'm an app developer. Let's say my app 225 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:27.320 I don't know allows you to mint NFTs or something like that, right, 226 00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:34.720 and I can use messo to connect to different banks. So let's say JP 227 00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:38.080 Morgan Chase, Bank of America, whatever it is, so users can fund 228 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:41.679 their wallet. Is that kind of just of it? Yeah, Like, 229 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:45.840 let me give you a more concrete example. So there's a team on Salana 230 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:52.200 called Movement that they've built this fantastic app that makes like buying and selling meme 231 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:56.080 coins basically as easy as robin Hood. And it's like it's a beautiful, 232 00:16:56.159 --> 00:17:00.320 like progressive web app it's just like great US And what they're doing behind the 233 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:07.079 scenes is they're using you know, like an improved wallet infrastructure to kind of 234 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:11.160 build create walts for users that are still self custodial but have you know, 235 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:17.319 more traditional off factors like email or social log in, and then through meso 236 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:21.799 integrating with Meso, the user can also then link their bank via their debit 237 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:25.359 card and so like once they do that, you can just be using movement, 238 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:29.480 you know, see a mean plumbing you like instantly like load your wallet 239 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:32.839 with however much USCC you need and then just go buy that meaning plane and 240 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:37.440 it all just works seamlessly. Now you mentioned USDC, so is it is 241 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:41.400 the cash converted to the u SEC stable cooin. It's not like a fiat 242 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:49.400 too cryptodirectly, there's that conversions. This is another price where where we were 243 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:52.519 really kind of going a different direction from what we've seen with like on and 244 00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:57.400 off French generally, is we really have no interest in being in exchange. 245 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:02.799 Like what we want to excel and what I already think we are the best 246 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:06.599 at is like getting funds on chain as fast and as cheaply as possible. 247 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:11.200 We would love eventually to be stable point only because in our mind, like 248 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:15.400 that is literally like the purest thing we're trying to do is just get funds 249 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:19.119 on chain, like it's going to be in fiat. So let's translated as 250 00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:23.759 simply as we can. The reality is like we're just not there yet in 251 00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:29.000 terms of like gas abstraction and other things. So our policy is we support 252 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:33.079 whatever token is used to pay for gas and a stable point like per network, 253 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:37.400 and then a lot of what we've built is designed to your point to 254 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:41.039 be in the background. So if you want to give users that experience of 255 00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:45.279 you know, I want to go for my bank account to buy some very 256 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:48.920 specific token, you can easily achieve that it's a developer because you can prompt 257 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:52.440 the user to on ramp. And then one of the other properties about meso 258 00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:59.240 that's pretty unique compared to others is we are incredibly fast. Like almost every 259 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:03.160 ramp or when you withdraw funds from an exchange, it's like a multi minute 260 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:10.200 process at best. Not much much slower are our process of on ramping. 261 00:19:10.599 --> 00:19:15.519 We're adding like the most minimal amount of overhead over like however long it takes 262 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.119 for the blockchain to just process a transaction, and so like you know, 263 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:23.799 it went fast. L two's like Arbitram and optimism. Like Arbitram. We 264 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:29.720 had someone on ramp in six seconds recently, which means like they clicked by 265 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:33.759 and six seconds later the funds were confirmed in a block explorer in their wallet 266 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:37.839 and they can do things with and so like when we're that fast, like 267 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:41.960 just swak with the decks if you want a simple token, and like it's 268 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:47.440 it's better for everyone. Yeah, that's great. And speed is certainly a 269 00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:49.759 big driver for adoption for consumers. No one wants slow stuff. They don't 270 00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:55.599 want high fees, right it sure as crypto early crypto adopters may not care, 271 00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:57.160 you know, with gas fees and so forth, but the average consumer 272 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:02.720 in the next billion pieceople, they want things that are fast, less friction 273 00:20:02.839 --> 00:20:07.519 and so forth. You mentioned arbitrum and optimism are there, you know, 274 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:10.519 are you guys kind of agnostic? You know, what which block pritains do 275 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:15.079 you support and all that? Yeah, I think that generally, like right 276 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:19.319 now we support Ethereum, arbitrim, optimism, Polygon, and Solana, but 277 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:25.440 are generally we're building to be chain at goostic and what we're what we're working 278 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:29.480 on right now is a number of upbridges that will allow us to basically bridge 279 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:34.400 to any chain, which I think will be be great because I mean, 280 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:38.240 it's it's been really interesting to watch the debate over the last couple of months 281 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:41.799 between you know, like modular versus integrated and all that. But like, 282 00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:48.440 no matter what you believe, there's going to be a lot more chains that 283 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:52.119 launch, and there's a lot of really exciting ecosystems that we're looking at, 284 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:56.160 like bear Chain, monad movement, Like there's just so much out there, 285 00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:59.519 and we want to be we want to be set up where the moment a 286 00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:03.559 chain like bearra goes live, we can be live day one. Like. 287 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:07.480 That's another problem that we've seen with new ecosystems is like on ramp and exchange, 288 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:14.559 like centralized exchange adoption lags significantly, which just like effectively like completely cuts 289 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:18.880 off your ability to even attempt to grow into kind of new users. So 290 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:25.000 tell us about the type of institutions you're working with, because obviously developers can 291 00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:29.119 use this, I guess any type of app, wallet, service, exchanges. 292 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:33.480 Tell us a bit about that. Yeah, I think we've seen Our 293 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:37.480 thesis initially was there was going to be kind of like two big groups of 294 00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:45.319 users like wallets and DAPs and like specifically within depths, we were looking at 295 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:52.200 like decentralized exchanges, perfe exchanges, et cetera. What as we've you know, 296 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:55.200 developed and started to work with a number of teams, we've kind of 297 00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:59.880 refined our thinking, which is like really we think we like on an offerensis 298 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:03.759 most sense when like when you are a wallet. But what's been really interesting 299 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:10.519 is like what is a wallet has become started to get very like very diverse, 300 00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:15.519 so like telegram bots are wallets, like more and more we're seeing you 301 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:21.000 know, like interesting apps like like perfet exchanges and others where there's like a 302 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:23.839 concept of been a wallet or account that's like unique to that app, and 303 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:30.759 so situations like that that's where like we shine Like we've been exploring a few 304 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:33.920 like we've been talking with a few different perpet changes about how they all have 305 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:37.079 you know, the concept of like a deposit account, like we can onorect 306 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:41.480 directly into that and don't even have to go through the user's wallet. So 307 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:45.920 it really can open up some really clean and beautiful ux when we have that 308 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:49.880 like direct connection with the user's wallet. So so yeah, right, now, 309 00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:53.119 like I think wallets, and then the other thing we're seeing is, 310 00:22:55.519 --> 00:22:57.799 you know, a booming set of like what we're just generally playing like crypto 311 00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:03.440 apps, where like these are not exactly like the apps, these are like 312 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:06.640 apps that are powered by crypto. So like a great example of this, 313 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:10.000 who we're not working with right now, but what we really love them is 314 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:15.400 sling Sling dot Money. It's like a it's a fantastic global P two P 315 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:18.599 app and you go to their website and like you can't see anything about crypto 316 00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:22.359 and that's because like they're doing everything in the background, and we're we're working 317 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:26.000 with the number of teams that are doing something similar and we're just a great 318 00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:30.920 solution for it because it's like you don't want the user to understand, you 319 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:34.119 know, all the complexity of networks and blockchains and all this stuff, and 320 00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:37.559 like we can abstract all that and give the user, you know that like 321 00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:42.759 web two venmo cash app experience for sure. And I'm assuming because you're a 322 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:47.720 platform, you're available globally, like any any developer from any country maybe can 323 00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:52.759 participate. Any developer from me in country absolutely where Yeah, we work with 324 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:55.839 teams from all over the world. On the user side, right now, 325 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:59.920 we only support us, which is like a you know, a big departure 326 00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:04.200 from the way Crypto normally operates. Our thought process around that is we, 327 00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:10.920 you know, we want to offer the best experience possible, like obviously for 328 00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:14.319 the end user, but also for the developer and the apps building on us, 329 00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:17.599 and we think the only way to do that is actually to take it 330 00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:22.079 slow, going international and like, rather than rush to try to get everywhere 331 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:26.799 and dilute the experience, what's what's build a great experience and expand over time. 332 00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:30.559 And then the other thing that that we we've found in research is, 333 00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:36.640 you know, there's obviously a lack of on ramp infrastructure, especially in emerging 334 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:40.160 markets, but a lot of those markets, the issue is not that there 335 00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:45.079 isn't on ramp, it's that users don't want to use like local institutions period. 336 00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:48.839 And if if that is the persona of the user, frankly, nothing 337 00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:49.799 we're going to be able to do is going to help them. So, 338 00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:55.319 like, our our belief is like you should be thinking about on and off 339 00:24:55.400 --> 00:25:00.039 rant from the perspective of established markets, which like the reality is like there's 340 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:03.400 a huge amount of user growth in emerging markets. But when we went talk 341 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:08.119 about like users that are actually doing high volume, those are more often than 342 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:12.359 not coming from established markets. So it's like that's where we shine. If 343 00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:18.559 you're going after emerging markets, you really should be leaning into how can I 344 00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:22.599 make it easier to do P to P based or OTC based on an off 345 00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:27.079 ramping, because like that is the way those users want to work. And 346 00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:30.200 I think the other thing too, in those emerging markets, many of them 347 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:33.519 want it seems to be a growing trend. They want US dollars or a 348 00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:40.000 US stable stable coin. They don't necessarily want their own fiat currency. I'm 349 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:42.880 hearing that more and more. It's so that's why there's been more demand for 350 00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:48.599 US back stable coins. Yeah, no, that we've definitely seen that absolutely. 351 00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:53.680 Now, you guys did get a nine point five million dollars seed round. 352 00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:56.920 Can you tell us about that and who participated? Yeah, so that 353 00:25:57.400 --> 00:26:02.880 was led by Rivet and Slant Ventures. We announced that recently, but we 354 00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:08.200 actually closed that round in uh like Lake Q one twenty two. And one 355 00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:12.240 of the things that we we just didn't want to do is like we don't 356 00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:15.160 want to, you know, make a bunch of noise publicly about what we're 357 00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:18.480 doing until it's real. And so the big reason for waiting on that is 358 00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:22.039 we wanted to talk about it when we had a product and we had something, 359 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.319 and you know, when we when we raised money, we were just 360 00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:29.920 getting started, so we kept it pretty pretty quiet. But yeah, it 361 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:33.519 was great. I mean I think that like so like Rivid especially, we've 362 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:38.480 loved working with because almost like eighty to ninety percent of what we're building is 363 00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:45.119 fintech, not crypto, and like one interesting thing that we've we've observed is 364 00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:48.400 there's a ton of people that come from the finance world in crypto, but 365 00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:53.160 there's a surprising lack of like payments and fintech experience. Like the reality is 366 00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:57.400 like those worlds of like you know, people involved in like finance and headphones 367 00:26:57.400 --> 00:27:02.000 and things like that like have very little to do with people that are involved 368 00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:04.839 in you know, like PayPal, stripe, like et cetera. And so 369 00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:11.319 Rivit is one of those unique investors who has like a very strong perspective on 370 00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:17.200 both sides, Like they they have been deeply invested in fintech, like I 371 00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:22.160 actually think probably before even Frutto, but at the same time they're one of 372 00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:25.319 the you know, one of the you know, original investors in coinbase, 373 00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:30.640 they've been investing in bitcoinsince twenty thirteen. Like they're they're they're deeply rooted in 374 00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:33.200 the space. So it's like that that perfect blend. Yeah, for sure, 375 00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:37.480 that's awesome. What do you guys have on your roadmap for twenty twenty 376 00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:41.400 four? Yeah, I hinted on a few things, but like the big 377 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:48.680 the big one that is, uh, like, how do we get more 378 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:52.279 into like the journey of a crypto user. So, and what I mean 379 00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:59.400 by that is like how do we position meso almost more as like a backup 380 00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:03.240 option to your crypto balance. So like what I would much rather do is 381 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:07.799 have users be prompted to on our off ramp when they're like making a deck 382 00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:12.799 swap or depositing into a protocol or buying an NFT and so that to do 383 00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:17.319 that, well, we need to follow through on the work. We're doing 384 00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:21.319 it on speed, where like the active on ramping is just a few seconds, 385 00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:25.640 so it doesn't add any like latency or confusion to the users experience, 386 00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:29.519 and they from their perspective then they're just like, hey, I just you 387 00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:32.440 know, I didn't have to think about the fact that I didn't have balance 388 00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:36.640 in my crypto while I'm just using apps. So I think that that's a 389 00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:40.680 big focus for us. And then I think the other other big one is 390 00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:45.640 is bridging and like kind of crosschain compatibility, Like we're we're spending a lot 391 00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:48.440 of time on that right now and hope to see that kind of probably later 392 00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:55.160 this quarter early next quarter. And then the final one is international. So 393 00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:59.519 like I said, like we're taking a conservative approach to it, but we 394 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:07.079 still are looking to expand almost certainly into like Europe and parts of Asia later 395 00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:11.799 this quarter into Q three. That's exciting. I want to get your perspective 396 00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:17.119 on the future of payments as relates to stable coins. We kind of touched 397 00:29:17.160 --> 00:29:21.480 on it earlier as we were talking about Venmo and PayPal, but I'm curious 398 00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:26.480 as to your thoughts. Let's say timeline horizon next five to eight years or 399 00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:32.119 so, do you see it mainly being stable coins, Because obviously the ethos 400 00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:36.559 of bitcoin and why started, you know, was to be an alternative currency. 401 00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:40.640 It's kind of merged more into a or more and more into a store 402 00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:45.160 of value. There are folks building like a layer two lightning network to help 403 00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:48.960 improve transactions, but I still see people going more to USDC or tether and 404 00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:53.519 p y USD and then here Ripple's going to launch their own stable coin. 405 00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:56.440 So there's gonna be a lot of players in the stable coin market, and 406 00:29:56.480 --> 00:30:03.119 it seems like people want that US back stable coin. Is that, you 407 00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:06.559 know, do you see it that way or do you see other payment options 408 00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:12.359 in the future. I'd say almost certainly that it's how it will play out, 409 00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:18.839 Like I think there is it. There's definitely something interesting in this idea 410 00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:22.359 of like flat coins, but like to me, that's just like a very 411 00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.640 like almost an implementation detail. I think like more often than not, users 412 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:32.480 are going to want to like transact and like use in their daily life something 413 00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:36.960 that is not volatile, and like right now that's the US dollar. And 414 00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:45.200 I also just think that the best way to like transition humanity to like a 415 00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:48.920 new paradigm is like giving them some way to kind of like think about it 416 00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:53.359 from their old perspective and like the you know, a silly example of this 417 00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:59.079 is like the original design of the iPhone, you know, used very skewomorphic 418 00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:03.440 design patterns where you know, it feels like you're literally like turning the page 419 00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:04.319 in a book and stuff like that, and like now we don't have any 420 00:31:04.359 --> 00:31:08.880 of that, But I think that was like a masterful strategy by Apple because 421 00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:12.079 it's like people didn't really get touch screens yet and so like this was a 422 00:31:12.119 --> 00:31:15.960 great way to kind of introduce them to it. And so where this goes, 423 00:31:17.079 --> 00:31:19.559 you know, over a very long time horison, we'll see. But 424 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:25.200 the idea of starting where people are today, which is like they understand us 425 00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:27.799 dollars, it's just like just a great way to minimize confusion. It's like, 426 00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:33.839 you know, there's so much of like of knowledge and context and like 427 00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:37.119 elements of this new system that we're building that you have to kind of wrap 428 00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:41.319 your head around as a user. It would be great if we can kind 429 00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:44.319 of minimize that to being like you don't need to worry about these like different 430 00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:48.759 forms of money or tokens or things like that. Just start with the ideas 431 00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:53.359 of like self custody blockchains, like like digital assets, period and not let 432 00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:59.200 users kind of graduate into that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes 433 00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:01.519 sense. And you know, as you're saying that, I'm thinking of there's 434 00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:07.279 a lot of merchants and businesses that accept bitcoin and different all points you know, 435 00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:14.640 ethereum or whatever it may be. But maybe the answer is an instant 436 00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:17.720 conversion to a US back stable coin, whether it be USDC, and then, 437 00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:22.279 like you're saying, users are more comfortable with that, they may hold 438 00:32:22.279 --> 00:32:28.359 some bitcoin, but to transact fast and to not have to I don't know, 439 00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:31.519 worry about all types of conversions and what it may be with ethereum, 440 00:32:31.559 --> 00:32:37.000 bitcoin disasset. It all just goes to us DC and then it's just easy. 441 00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:42.720 Oh here especially you know, it's when we think about this from the 442 00:32:42.759 --> 00:32:46.039 long term perspective, I think a lot of us are hoping that like assets 443 00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:52.559 like the soul BTC like stabilize the point where you maybe could envision it as 444 00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:58.319 commerce. But like, regardless, like that is far far away. And 445 00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:01.599 like today, if you were business that is accepting a payment in a volatile 446 00:33:01.640 --> 00:33:06.759 asset, it's a ton of work because it's like what are you My favorite 447 00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:08.880 problem with this is like how do you handle refunds? So it's like I 448 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:14.079 buy, I buy a thousand dollars laptop at bitcoin, and then four weeks 449 00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:16.920 later I return it, do I get back bitcoin? And it's like, 450 00:33:17.079 --> 00:33:21.920 was that business then forced to hold bitcoin? This whole time and take that 451 00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:24.880 exposure on their balance sheet, like or are they paying you know, high 452 00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:30.599 fees to hedge against it. It's like you just created Like I believe that 453 00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:35.680 crypto has the opportunity to actually simplify a ton for businesses, Like that's why 454 00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:39.839 they shouldn't they should be accepting a payment in crypto, But forcing them to 455 00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:44.599 then take on a bunch of additional complexity to do it kind of defeats the 456 00:33:44.599 --> 00:33:47.519 purpose. So that's why I definitely agree that, Like I think, at 457 00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:52.960 least for right now, stable coins are by far the most obvious solution. 458 00:33:52.119 --> 00:33:57.960 Like I know Charas who's the head of payments for for Slana, Like he 459 00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:00.200 that was exactly his insight, which was my too, is like when I 460 00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:02.799 saw stable ons, like oh yeah, obviously, like this is how we 461 00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:07.480 do it, Like if we want to get adoption, like this is this 462 00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:09.199 is the like tip of the spear in the beach, edd is to focus 463 00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:14.800 on this. And like, without fail, every conversation we had with you 464 00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:19.360 know, big businesses and retailers, once they like rocked stable climbs, they're 465 00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:21.559 like, oh, okay, that's awesome. That makes so much more sense 466 00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:24.719 now, like we get it and it helps a lot that you have companies 467 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:29.519 like Circle US company vary by the books where they're like okay, cool, 468 00:34:29.559 --> 00:34:31.599 Like I can just open a Circle account and I know where my money is 469 00:34:31.639 --> 00:34:35.679 and I know how this all works. Like it's great. Yeah, and 470 00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:39.079 especially like they're doing a great job of having interoperability. They're putting u SEC 471 00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:44.400 on many chains, so that's just going to help boost adoption and just cast 472 00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:49.880 a wider net. So yeah, I think that that's the way and hopefully 473 00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:54.039 you know these different merchant services and so birth can do that where instant cotaneous 474 00:34:54.079 --> 00:35:00.360 conversion to USDC and then it makes it easy for everybody to transact and to 475 00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:06.639 account and to keep track of everything. Absolutely. Now there was a question 476 00:35:07.719 --> 00:35:12.079 and it escaped me. I was thinking about it earlier, but it'll come 477 00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:16.079 back to me anyway. What are your thoughts on the bitcoin ETFs and how 478 00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:20.480 the performance as being in Hong Kong launched there a big one and etherorems bot 479 00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:23.199 ETFs this week, and you know, what do you think about the future 480 00:35:23.239 --> 00:35:28.159 outlook of at least for this cycle. I mean, I think it is 481 00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:34.199 it is clear like validation, like institutional acceptance of the asset class and I 482 00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:37.079 think that's that's huge, Like in I think it's one of the part things. 483 00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:39.440 I think there's a lot of stuff that like once you're on the inside 484 00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:43.800 of crypt you forget about because you're just like in it so deep every day. 485 00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:50.719 But one like really core assumption is like our blockchain is legitimate at all, 486 00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:53.800 Like does it's like this idea of like decentralized money, Like does that 487 00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:58.760 even make sense? And like that in many ways is like the first hurdle 488 00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:01.559 that users have to get over. And like when you see black rock, 489 00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:06.559 you know, big institutions and now Strike then o k Pal, etcetera, 490 00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:08.559 all saying oh, yes, this is super legitimate and we're leaning in, 491 00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:13.239 like you get over that urdle. So I think from that perspective, it's 492 00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:15.519 great in terms of like what it's going to do, you know, to 493 00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:19.880 the market, to the prices all that that I spend just less time on. 494 00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:22.559 Like I mean, I think it's it is, it's it's it's pretty 495 00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:28.079 clearly done well for us, and I hope it continues. But generally, 496 00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:34.039 like we're still I think we're all looking for what's going to take us out 497 00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:39.159 of this like speculative period and into something more concretely valuable like and and and 498 00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:44.920 that's where like you know, things like stable points, empowering developers building new 499 00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:49.119 apps, and like just accelerating the kind of experimentation like those are the things 500 00:36:49.159 --> 00:36:52.679 I get most excited about for sure. And on that note, you know, 501 00:36:52.719 --> 00:37:00.960 we're still waiting for the United States to pass clear crypto legislation balance regulations. 502 00:37:00.039 --> 00:37:04.800 Of course, we don't want anything draconian. We want to protect consumers 503 00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:10.159 when we want to allow innovation to flourish. But there's a lot of regulatory 504 00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:14.800 battles happening with the SEC and much more. What are your thoughts on that 505 00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:22.000 and do you think we might see Congress act by twenty twenty five. I've 506 00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:27.880 I've like I can't say what what's going to happen, like I wish I 507 00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:30.079 could, but it just feels like so much of it that it is up 508 00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:35.039 in the air until we see what happens with the election. But the in 509 00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:38.800 terms of what I'm hoping for is like I would love to see the SEC 510 00:37:38.920 --> 00:37:45.280 stop just like attacking crypto outright as an industry like it. It just one 511 00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:47.639 feels like we're just throwing the baby out of the backwater, Like I just 512 00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:52.360 don't. I just genuinely don't get it. Like, we had a smaller 513 00:37:52.360 --> 00:37:58.320 group of US with rivet at the opportunity to spend some time with one of 514 00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:02.840 the Federal Reserve governors who chairs the Payment Committee, and I was like blown 515 00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:07.480 away. We spent two hours with him, and it's like he deeply understands 516 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:10.960 the value and the importance of crypto blockchain stable coins, both to just like 517 00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:15.360 the world and people, but also to the US and the government and monetary 518 00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:21.519 policy. And so to me, like, actually, the US has this 519 00:38:21.639 --> 00:38:25.440 huge opportunity to like re cement itself as the like the reserve currency for the 520 00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:30.719 world for the next generation, and like instead they're fighting it, which is 521 00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:34.880 is like very bizarre to me. And then the other thing I just also 522 00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:39.599 worry about is the you know, the Internet grew up in a period where 523 00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:45.119 I think people still were not fully sold on this idea that like people's digital 524 00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:49.199 life was going to matter like this. It still was like a toy, 525 00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:53.159 and like who knows, Now everyone gets how important digital is, and we're 526 00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:58.960 seeing like an increasing amount of regulation just across the board, Like AI is 527 00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:02.360 the best example of this of like a blunch of regulation really quickly, and 528 00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:07.039 like I don't I can't speculate on what's going on with AI, it's way 529 00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:13.199 outside my area of expertise. But generally I worry about like regulation just slowing 530 00:39:13.239 --> 00:39:17.599 down innovation, Like tech is just too flexible, where like it becomes this 531 00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:22.599 really dangerous thing where you regulate it and all you do is you cement the 532 00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:24.719 big players because they know how to navigate and get around it, and like 533 00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:29.440 you leave the small startups basically just cut out of the market. So I 534 00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:34.480 worry a lot about that, And then I think the other thing I also 535 00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:39.199 worry about this is like tangentially related to crypto is just financial crime and consumer 536 00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:45.400 protection laws, Like I think the spirit of the CFPB and like the laws 537 00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:52.440 and regulations around that are incredibly important. Like there's it's it's tragic the stuff 538 00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:59.199 that companies were doing pre the CFPB, CFPB being the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, 539 00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:06.400 but trying to take trying to create like general regulation that applies to like 540 00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:12.159 every financial product is effectively impossible at this point. And so like recently over 541 00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:16.119 the last five years, we saw this with prepaid cards, so like you 542 00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:20.480 know, you might your audience went not spend a lot of time thinking about 543 00:40:20.519 --> 00:40:23.840 that. But prepaid cards are how a lot of Americans who don't have a 544 00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:30.280 lot of money access the financial system, and there they generally are like almost 545 00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:34.320 predatory with like fees and all that. So it's like a great problem for 546 00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:37.400 the government to crack down on. But the fall out of that was classifying 547 00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:42.440 basically every digital wallet as a prepaid card. And it was like it pushed 548 00:40:42.639 --> 00:40:45.440 PayPal, venot cash advents vision work, like we have to do a bunch 549 00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:50.079 of unnatural things that we know don't actually protect our users. It just makes 550 00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:52.760 their life harder, and like why are we doing this? Why are you 551 00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:54.800 classifying this way? And so it was great to see I forget exactly when 552 00:40:54.840 --> 00:40:59.239 it was the last couple of weeks PayPal actually did win a case against the 553 00:40:59.239 --> 00:41:02.000 CFPB to be like you can't, you should not classify this way, and 554 00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:07.320 so like that's awesome, but like that's PayPal one of like the heavyweights pushing 555 00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:10.920 for that. When that comes to Crypto, it's like, frankly, Crypto 556 00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:15.519 has bigger problems with the SEC. They can't fight this battle on multiple fronts. 557 00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:19.559 So that's something I worry a lot about. And then financial crime, 558 00:41:19.639 --> 00:41:22.920 I mean I think I think most of us in crypto have heard about just 559 00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:28.599 and heard our just very skeptical and worried about KYC, you know, privacy 560 00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:31.000 and all that, and that's something we think a lot about it, Mezzo. 561 00:41:31.079 --> 00:41:35.559 I mean, it's we're in this really top position where if we want 562 00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:39.320 to participate, we need to do things like KYIC data collection, et cetera. 563 00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:43.199 And so what we're trying to do is it's like, how do we 564 00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:47.679 do it in a way that's clear and transparent and right by the user so 565 00:41:47.719 --> 00:41:52.760 that we can all participate, but then push the industry and regulators in a 566 00:41:52.840 --> 00:41:57.679 direction that I think is better because it's like the thing I you know, 567 00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:00.079 there're a certain politician likes to say that like, you know, crypto doesn't 568 00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:04.880 like to follow the rules, And in my mind, like the beauty of 569 00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:07.400 crypto is actually a lot of the rules become irrelevant. It's not that we 570 00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:09.960 don't want to follow them, it's like we shouldn't have to follow them, 571 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:15.000 and that's actually better for everyone. It's like the like KYC in many ways 572 00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:21.039 is what created like identity theft, Like if you didn't have those regulations, 573 00:42:21.079 --> 00:42:25.280 like we wouldn't have this huge problem that is actually destroying people's lives on a 574 00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:30.920 big scale. And I'm not going to speculate on like what's the like ROI 575 00:42:31.119 --> 00:42:35.239 is KYC really worth it? But I think there is a real argument to 576 00:42:35.239 --> 00:42:38.360 make that it's just not like it doesn't protect us enough and it actually hurts 577 00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:44.159 average people a lot more than it helps them. Great insights, man, 578 00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:46.159 I appreciate that. So I got some wrap up questions here for you. 579 00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:50.760 First, if you could create your own metaverse of what would the theme be? 580 00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:57.840 Oh honestly, I like one of my favorite things Metallica was recently put 581 00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:00.079 out is like, you know, keep the theory in cyber and it's like 582 00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:05.039 to like, that's a half part person. My answer like cyberpunk, like 583 00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:08.800 that, you know, like kind of bleeding after the Internet is what I 584 00:43:08.840 --> 00:43:13.360 love, like a DJing culture all that. It's just like it's just it's 585 00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:16.840 such a fun part about crypto and I'd definitely lean into that for sure. 586 00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:24.079 Rapid fire questions. First, is out favorite food? This is boring, 587 00:43:24.159 --> 00:43:31.920 but pizza. I love pizza. Favorite musician or bad M. I doubt 588 00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:37.639 anyone will know this, but I I love like lo fi electronics, So 589 00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:47.159 zero seven nice favorite movie m I have a bunch of young kids, so 590 00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:52.719 I watch a lot of kid movies. So basically like any studio ghibli movie 591 00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:55.159 is like my favorite because it's something that like I can actually enjoy and they 592 00:43:55.159 --> 00:44:10.599 can enjoy. So out of that probably I'll say and favorite book, Oh 593 00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:15.480 I have. There's a bunch of books I really like. One that I 594 00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:20.079 was actually talking about recently with some people is The Doom, like the video 595 00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:24.480 game biography. It's like phenomenal, like such an interesting book to get the 596 00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:28.480 insight into, like Carmac can help him and his super thinking about things at 597 00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:31.519 the time. Oh, I have to check that out because I I'll send 598 00:44:31.559 --> 00:44:35.079 you the link. I want to figure out exactly what the name of the 599 00:44:35.079 --> 00:44:38.280 book is because I've forgotten. Yeah, that sounds fascinating actually, And you 600 00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:42.079 know, when you're not working at messou, what are you doing for fun? 601 00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:46.280 Spending a lot of time my kids. I have three young kids that 602 00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:51.960 a little bit of photography and some other stuff on the side. But yeah, 603 00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:55.159 between kids and an early stage startup, do not have a lot more 604 00:44:55.199 --> 00:45:00.320 time beyond that. Ben pleasure chatting with you. I love with you guys 605 00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:02.639 for doing a messo and I love to have you back on as things progressed, 606 00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:05.920 but thank you so much for joining me. Yeah, thanks for the 607 00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:08.559 time. It's great to be here.