Hey, they're friends. Remember when spiritual but not religious was all the rage.
Well it's back like that nineties fashion you hope would stay in the past.
A recent gallup Paul says that thirty three percent of Americans identify this way,
and it's got me rethinking my skepticism. Turns out politics plays a role.
Republicans are more religious, Democrats lean more spiritual, and independence are somewhere
in between. So is this label just about political vibes or is there something
deeper going on? Maybe it's time to give the spiritual but not religious crew
a second look. The story is from Deseret News via Yahoo, published on
September twenty sixth, twenty twenty twenty three. And before I pass it off
to Kelly here, I have a limerick here that's going to explain to us.
It's going to put to rest. What does spiritual but religious mean?
I asked this of chat GPT. I said, give me a lyric about
what it means to be spiritual but not religious, And he says, a
spirit that's free, not confined, no doctrines or creeds intertwined, and seeking
truth on their own in silence. They've grown spiritual not religious. They find
they're away, Kelly, that was awesome. I'm still not sure what people
mean when they say they're spiritual. I ask a lot of people who used
the word. Most of them can't explain it either. It just seems to
be a buzzword for something tangible that most people don't really seem to understand.
What are the good definitions? I've heard, though, was being cognizant of
the connectedness of all people and the world that we live in, And if
that's what it means, that's a pretty good definition. But I'm not sure
that we can agree what the idea of interconnectedness is, so it becomes a
little nebulous on that end too. But I think it's a good working definition
to begin with and explore through conversations with people claiming to be spiritual. It
does seem to be a way station along the road to atheism, though.
I've noticed that as the amount of nuns, the people not affiliated with any
religion in the United States seems to grow, the amount of spiritual people seems
to grow as well. And I'm not so sure that that's people diving into
atheism or agnosticism. I think a lot of that is people who are tired
of churches organized churches. They still believe in God, they still believe in
Jesus, but they're really just sick of organized church. So they don't go
on Sunday, they don't practice their religion, but they'll still pray to Jesus
when something bad happens to them. And I think that's where a lot of
these people who are saying they're spiritual are at inside their head, at least
within my own experience. I don't have any research to back this up or
anything. It's obviously just my own experience, but that seems to be where
most people are at. I still believe in God, I still believe in
Jesus. I still pray when I need to, but I don't need to
go to any church. So Cynthia, what is your what's been your experience
with this? Well, you know, when I first accepted the title and
nomenclature is HEYTHEUS, I ran across a joke that said that black people who
say that they are spiritual are really atheists, but they don't want their mother
to know. You know, guys, I struggled with this whole thing about
spiritualism versus religiosity, and especially being an extra Christian that was in a holiness
church that came out of a of Zuza Pentecostal background that liked to actually utilize
terminology like it's about relationship not religion. I think that some of us ex
fundis have heard at a time or two, and I remember even being on
like you know, call in shows like Talking than a couple of times and
even truth wanted where that came up, and I would ask, Okay,
so I can point and say that I have a relationship with my mother and
I can give you her name, I can tell you where she lives,
and if you want, I can actually show that she exists. So I
have a tangible right, right, that's a tangible relationship that can be observed
and that you know, people will be able to say that, hey,
guess what, this actual relate, this relation ship actually exists. And I
believe Cynthia when she says that she has a relationship with her mother, because
she produced the person and she's a relationship with Now going back to this whole
thing about spirituality, and uh, Kelly, could you please repeat the definition
that you found. That's sure spirituality, thank you. Sure it is being
cognizant of the connectedness of all people in the world we live in. Okay,
So that just to me, if I were to hear that definition,
that just means that I'm conscious that other people exist, and I have a
potential, I have potential relationships with people who happen to exist, you know,
they're the whole spirit lost. It seems a bit vague, right,
Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's lost in that. So even if I
listen to that particular definition, I'm like, okay, so where's the spirituality?
Right? Is that not just being in a world with other people?
Yeah? Yeah, Like how is that not just being like, you know,
I'm in relationship with Infidel and Scott and Kelly because we happen to all
be members of the the atheist community of Austin, and we all happen to
be participants of the nonprofits. And I think it's more about having an interconnectedness
with everybody though, even the people that we don't know or have an actual
physical connection to, do you know what I mean? Well, okay,
but here's the thing. When we say that, you know, what what
can be considered physical or intangible? I mean, like I struggle with that
too, only because if we were to say that, like I'm conscious of
other people existence. I'm conscious that are other people in the world, and
I be able to have relationship with them, and I am aware of their
exist since even though I may not know them personally. But the thing about
it is is that there are physical means to actually connect us to others.
There are cell phones, there is the Internet, there is email, There
is getting on a flight and flying to a different country and learning and meeting
other people. And I know that there are other people who may even exist
outside of this particular realm. It is because there's already been things that demonstrated
that people exist. But again, where is the spirituality? And I think
that another issue that I have specifically with this whole terminology is because Kelly,
this is the first time that I'm hearing that definition is on our panel.
That's the first time when you are talking to as Cynthia Man. Jeez man,
there's a whole world out there, Cynthia, you just got to go
out there and talk to these spiritual people. That's my problem. That's the
problem. That's the problem. I'm not aware, but you know, but
regardless of that, guys, you know, in all seriousness, like when
you are talking to people who happen to have this nomenclature or identity of spiritual,
and you ask him what does that mean. You are going to get
different responses. Some may come with you with the Kelly's definition. One person
told me spirituality is breath. I said, well, can't you just say
breath? You know? I mean, like, I remember when I was
a thinner person of more flexibility, and I practiced yoga, and they would
talk about breath and it was prana and and I guess like that was like
Hindu for spirit and and I guess like there's like some connectivity with other religions,
including like Christianity do a jail Christian things about you know, the breath
of lifel blah. The word spirit has its root that means breath. Mm
hmm yeah, okay, respiration right, respiration has spirit right embedded right in
it. So I mean that's high schools. That's not too much of a
stretch, sure. And I mean, like, and if you want to
equivocate, you know that I am spiritual, So I believe in breathing.
I'm fine with that, man. But the problem is is that you have
other loaded ideologies when it comes to saying that you are spiritual, and it
normally has to do with being a person that believes and even maybe practicing something
that has to do with, you know, it's the supernatural, which we
can't even say with full confidence exists because we don't have any type of method
to prove the supernatural exist. But I want to know what Infidel says exist.
This is for you. Meet you, meet you, I want to
know that what exists, this is for you, Cynthia, Well, you
know, thank you. When I was a believer, I'd admit that I
was dismissive of that whole spiritual's concept. So I'm probably the wrong person to
ask on what all of that means, because I felt it was a rather
tepid position that intended to exist between two viewpoints. Now, one thing that
Cynthia you did mention was, you know, coming out as an as an
atheist and realizing that, you know, that's an adjustment. I know for
me, I I spent a while telling myself I was agnostic, not really
understanding that that really isn't a middle road between atheists and theists. But I
feel that's somewhat what we get with oftentimes with people who call themselves spiritual.
You know, they they want to say, okay, they want to tell
the religious people that, you know, I'm spiritual, so you know,
I'm not one of those atheists. I'm not one of those people. I'm
close to what you are without really committing to anything. And of course with
secular people, it's well, you know, I'm I'm spiritual, but I'm
not really like those religious people. Those you know, those people who you
know are out of their minds or whatever you think about them. I've got
my own version of feel good WU. But as dismissive as I am towards
them, they do point out one thing very clearly. Christianity is dying.
What we're seeing is both Christianity and Islam in the throes of their own demise.
You know, I was mentioned earlier about the nuns. You know,
people have been leaving organized religion for decades. Every metric shows it. The
church membership, the nuns, and Christianity is running scared. And the truth
is they should be. You know, just bronze age myths just don't have
the same relevance today, and people are looking for something to fill that void.
They feel that maybe in their life and this spiritual catch off phrase has
become an open slate for whatever sounds good at the moment, and that's what
scares me. You know, most of them are coming out of Christianity.
You know, the pump's already primed to accept bad beliefs without serious examination.
And my concern is is that as they learn to grow out of these spiritual
beliefs, you know, they're just going to replace these with something just as
bad and unhealthy for not only them, but for us as a society.
That's what I know. Now I'm glad, Yeah, now I am glad
to see people casting off the chains of religion. But one set of bad
ideas down, one more to go, you know. And this is one
thing that I think. It's a reminder of why it's so important what we
do. You know, it's helping people understand that you don't need to replace
religion with something else. It's all a lie. Just just put it to
bed, just like you did religion, Cynthia. You mentioned being from a
Nazeusa Street Pentecostal background. Man, you rung a bell there, because you
know I'm from UPCI United Pentecostal Church and you know, so it was the
same concept and getting out of those things and deconstructing from that. You know,
it's it's a loss of community. It's a loss of so many things
that you were so familiar with and so comfortable with. And I get why
people do it. I just don't think they have good reasons for it.
But that's why, as I said, I think it's important that we encourage
people to explore those to ask those questions, as more than one of us
has mentioned, of asking what does it mean to be spiritual? To put
those ideas in front of them so they can self reflect. It's not a
matter of confrontation. It's a matter of them thinking, do I really have
a good reason for feeling the way I do? Do I really have a
good reason to believe what I do? You know? But the truth is,
for me, it's kind of a situation. And I admit I'm a
little bit of an extremist time to time. I know that may come as
a shock to all of you. I'm glad you're all sitting down, But
for me, it's pick a side. Either you believe made up shit or
you don't. And with that, Scott, what do you have to add?
I will add, well, first of all, I would like to
add I'm calling bullshit and not on what you were saying. I agree with
what you were just talking about, but I'll come back to the bullshit what
you You and Cynthia too, we're both talking about how or Cynthia, you
mentioned that some you know, some people are accusing of these people maybe accusing
is not the right word, but accusing them of being really atheists, but
they're just not, you know, don't want to admit it. And then
Infidel you were talking about people that have the flip side, right, the
people it's it's uh, people that are religious that are distancing themselves from religion.
And we saw this, this idea in in the segment earlier this week
when we were talking about Christian organization wanting to petition TBN to not broadcast my
cuckabee because he's you know, talking about bullets and ship, right, and
so so we have so the idea that they're uh, here, we're seeing
this fracturing of of this block. And so it's me, I just need
for you to say one more time, bullets and ship, bullets and ship.
But yeah, so anyway, so there's this distancing, there's this arm's
length, uh, saying, you know, yes, we're Christians too,
but we're pushing you know, there's there's some distancing going on. So now
back to the bullshit here, And I want to illustrate my thought here on
this whole here. Here's how I can sum up my perspective on the spiritual
but not religious crew. And so I'm I'm gonna recite a few lines from
the movie Mystery Men. And this is a scene where the Shoveler and mister
Furious are talking about another superhero, Captain Amazing, and why they just can't
get as much press as Captain Amazing is getting. So the shoveler says,
well, if we had a billionaire like Lance Hunt is our benefactor, and
the mister Furious interrupt says, that's because Lance Hunt is Captain Amazing, and
the Shovel's like, no, don't start that again. Lance Hunt wears glasses.
Captain Amazing doesn't wear glasses, and mister Furious is like, yeah,
because he just takes him off when he changes. And so that's what's happening
here. We're seeing, Yeah, we're onto you, Okay, just because
you take the glasses off of religion doesn't mean that it's not Lance Hunt still
standing there in front of us, right, it's still the same stuff,
and it's not I appreciate I and sorry I'm getting a little worked up here.
I appreciate the distancing. I appreciate that you recognize that religion does harm
and that you don't want to be associated with that kind of thinking, that
you don't want to be associated with that kind of acting, You don't want
to be associated with that kind of philosophy and ideology. And I think that's
good. But I'll give you another analogy here. I prefer Russian Roulette players
that survive over Russian Roulette players that don't survive. Now, of course it's
better and it's great when if people survive that ordeal or as opposed to not
surviving it. But that's not the problem, right, You're not addressing the
problem. The problem is the game, right. The problem is the actual
action of doing the Russian Roulette, and neither of those positions affect it.
And so if it's not, Yes, there are things that come out of
religion that are harmful. Subjugation of women, the mistreatment of children, sexual
mistreatment of children, fraud, all kinds of things, and so we know
that that happens, but just saying, well, I'm still you know,
I still want to believe in something bigger than my you know, I still
want to think that there's a power out there. I'm just not one of
them. Well, you know that's the issue. It's the irrational beliefs that
are the problem. They're the source, right. The other things are are
horrible, but they're symptoms. There are symptoms of this virus, and the
virus is the irrational beliefs. And so if you that's just my opinion obviously,
And so I think the spiritual but not religious crowd is just putting a
band aid on this cancer and it's not going to it's not going to heal
it. It might stop your bleeding, it might stop you know, the
you know pain or whatever, but it's not going to fix the problem.
And I think that until we can, and I'm happy that we're moving in
that direction. You know, this isn't all a bad thing. But what
I'm saying is that until we address that root cause, the source, right,
until we admit to ourselves that damn it, Lance Hunt is captain amazing.
Okay, they're the same thing. You got to treat them the same
way, and I've been hogging the mic enough, Kelly, why don't you
tell me what's on your mind here? First off, kudos to you for
bringing up Mystery Men, because it is hands down my favorite, my very
favorite superhero movie. A Kelly when Yeah, but you're absolutely right, it
does. This is more. It's still a symptom of bad thinking. A
lot of these people who are spiritual, they're not giving up this irrational belief
in super in the supernatural. A lot of them still believe in ghosts,
a lot of them still believe in alien abductions, a lot of them still
believe in kryptids. This is it's not the end of bad thinking. And
I think that we need to maybe show these people that it's okay to give
up these irrational beliefs. You don't have to pretend that you're still spiritual.
It's okay to be an atheist. It's okay to not believe in spirits,
it's okay to not believe in ghosts, it's okay to be a rational thinking
person. I think that's very, very important that we set an example to
people for that and to let people know that they could join us. So
I mean, I don't have much else to add than that. So Cynthia,
you want to take it, sure, I'll take it and run it
on home. So one of the things that this particular article also highlighted,
because it was really about this Gallup hole that talked about in June of twenty
I'm sorry, July of twenty twenty three, it basically revealed that the landscape
of the United States is changing. Nearly half Americans forty seven percent identify as
religious, while thirty three percent consider themselves spiritual not religious, and only two
percent claim both. And also the data has shifted over the years, as
the proportion of Americans identifying as religious has declined by seven percentage points since nineteen
ninety nine. And we will include the gallupole for all of you guys who
happen to be curious that it also shows how those particular numbers will show up
when it comes to how you identify in politics and and how you may even
like you know, utilize that in other groups that you know are important to
you when it comes to the idea. But I think that one of the
things that this particular article actually revealed that the findings in the Gallup Pole suggests
that while religioniosity is on the decline in the United States, the majority of
Americans still maintain some form of religious or spiritual connection. And the rise of
spirituality and the increase in those identifying as neither religious nor spiritual indicate ongoing shifts
in the country's religious landscape. So it's going along with the trends that we
actually seen and reported on this show. And Scott, I think that you
said that you I feel because I feel the spirit feelings. Yeah. I
just wanted to add one little bit at the end here. You said that
the poll was showing that the landscape was changing in America, and I think
that I think that this is a change for the better, right, I
think this is what we're seeing here is our country maturing and and it reminded.
And I know that this is a I know this is the nonprofits.
But I want to share my favorite Bible verse. And my favorite Bible verse
is from First Corinthians thirteen eleven. You might know the what I'm talking about.
Yes, Oh, we got to say, everybody in your Bible,
go to right follow along if you like. It's when I was a child,
I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, and I
thought, as a child became a man, I put away childish things.
And so when I see this kind of thing happening here, Yes, we're
putting away childish things. Oh I shay, shay, I know that's right.
And you know, just just to piggyback on what you just said,
Scott, because that, really, you know, spoke to my spirit.
I will say it again. I've said it before and I'm going to say
it again that with more knowledge of our environment and our universe, the need
to use religion as an explanation will come to not and to me, this
indication of spiritual is more of a wanting to have one's cake and eat it
too. And I'm not going to balk at one if they want to claim
spiritual. But through more inquiry and more use of the Socratic method, my
favorite spiritual becomes, in my opinion, more inconsequential. But what's not inconsequential,
dear viewer, listener, It's more for the nonprofits. So click here