WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.200 --> 00:00:19.559 Thank you for listening to Pictures Media Radio. Welcome to Policy and Rights, 2 00:00:21.160 --> 00:01:03.280 the show about governor policy and human rights. Welcome back everyone. Many of 3 00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:07.840 us have seen The Burial by now. It is a legal drama directed by 4 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:15.599 Maggie Betts, written and co written by Maggie Betts and Doug Wright. And 5 00:01:15.959 --> 00:01:23.879 it is a legal drama based on the lawyer Willie E. Gary as he 6 00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:34.519 defended or at least represented Jeremiah Joseph O'Keefe in a lawsuit against the Loewen Group, 7 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:45.920 a funeral company that, as shown in the in the movie, was 8 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:53.439 less than ethical. It starred, of course Timy Lee Jones and Jamie Fox 9 00:01:53.480 --> 00:02:05.840 Fox who played Gary uh the outstanding lawyer who who won the case for Jeremiah 10 00:02:05.519 --> 00:02:14.280 o'keeith, who was played by Tommy Lee Jones. And it was a pretty 11 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:19.319 good movie. I found it very entertaining and I thought and I also found 12 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:25.159 it inspirational for those who want to stand up for their rights and stand up 13 00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:32.879 against some of the corporate greed that may be happening in our world, and 14 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:39.159 and also on the human rights. And it represented a lot of what it 15 00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:50.800 means to actually have civil rights and racial equality in our society. So it 16 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:53.800 was. It was a really good film, and I, like I said, 17 00:02:53.879 --> 00:03:02.080 I enjoyed it. But I had the occasion to have someone introduce me 18 00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:12.719 to Jeff O'Keefe, the son of Jeremiah. As we know, Jeremiah has 19 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:21.599 since passed on and the O'Keefe family has been in Biloxi, Mississippi for over 20 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:27.520 one hundred and sixty years at this point, so I thought it was a 21 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:36.879 great opportunity to find out some of the background behind the burial. And of 22 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:44.520 course, like any other Hollywood movie, there are some liberties, some story 23 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:50.639 writing things to make sure that we drive the point home about who the hero 24 00:03:50.919 --> 00:04:00.000 is versus who the villain is. So I also had the opportunity to ask 25 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:06.159 Jeff about some of that background, and well, why don't we listen to 26 00:04:06.199 --> 00:04:15.040 that conversation now as we have it right here, to hear Jeff's opinions on 27 00:04:15.160 --> 00:04:23.839 what he thought of the movie and some background about what actually happened, because 28 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:28.720 this is a lawsuit, and lawsuits just don't happen over a matter of a 29 00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:36.800 couple months. They take years of evidence generation, background checks, all sorts 30 00:04:36.839 --> 00:04:43.600 of stuff. That well, it makes for a boring movie if you include 31 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:46.360 all that stuff, and it makes it more exciting if you only focus on 32 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:56.079 Hey, they're in court and they banter back and forth, right, so 33 00:04:56.199 --> 00:05:00.360 why don't we listen to what Jeff had to say in h my conversation with 34 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:11.439 him. He's a really nice and and community driven man and willing to talk 35 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:18.040 about his father's achievements. The primary thing you want to talk about a little 36 00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:20.839 bit of a movie and so forth, is that, right? Yeah, 37 00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:26.360 I want and I wanted to take a different, different angle on on the 38 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:33.959 movie with something that was brought up over the idea of a big thing in 39 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:38.680 North America now is corporate greed, you know, where the corporations are just 40 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:43.240 trying to take more than their fair share. And it was something that was 41 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:53.040 brought up in a movie that the whole trouble became when they wanted to wait 42 00:05:53.079 --> 00:05:58.240 your dad out and until he went bankrupt and then and then just take take 43 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:04.399 over the business right by it from from bankruptcy. So yeah, well it 44 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:14.279 was a very complex situation all the way and really just a sequence of events 45 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:19.879 that were uncanny the way it all just you know, I guess, unfold 46 00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:25.560 folded. But yeah, it's it's it's a round. A long story, 47 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:32.000 but but one thing was prevalent was that low And seemed to be fixated on 48 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:39.639 acquiring funeral homes, you know, And so the conflict that we had with 49 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:45.480 uh, you know, the loew And group, we were trying to resolve, 50 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:55.600 but the primary methodology of resolution that they were insisting upon was buying some 51 00:06:55.720 --> 00:07:00.120 of our summer all of our funeral homes as a resolution. And of course 52 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:06.879 initially none of those were for sale, and so that's where some of those 53 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:16.040 discrepancies, you know, arose. And then as the situation progressed, there 54 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:20.240 was a secondary point in time then, I mean, I meaning even after 55 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:26.439 the lawsuit was filed, you know, because it didn't appear as though they 56 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:33.000 were going to honor my father's original agreement to produce insurance into his companies and 57 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:38.959 which he had a contract for the funeral homes that they purchased to do that. 58 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:44.920 So he had no choice but to you know, file a dispute about 59 00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:50.399 that. But later in the sequence of time, there was an effort to 60 00:07:50.519 --> 00:08:01.639 settle that matter, and we did engage in a settlement agreement that involved transitioning 61 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:07.600 three of our funeral homes that were off the Coast three, uh, you 62 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:13.079 know, with part of the settlement agreement, and and it also involved an 63 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:22.240 insurance company transaction. But then that that settlement agreement also was unrealized, and 64 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:31.160 basically they were stalling on settling that and and there was an issue going on 65 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:37.000 with the insurance department at that time, and so they were kind of under 66 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:45.799 the impression that something ominous may happen to our company and then they could swoop 67 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:50.120 in and pick up the pieces. And so, you know that that element 68 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:58.720 of the movie was correct. I mean, it wasn't necessarily a financial detriment 69 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:05.960 as it was really a misunderstanding between the insurance department and uh and our you 70 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:15.799 know, our situ our position, right, So so they weren't going to 71 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:18.919 actually honor the part of the agreement that said that they would buy the insurance 72 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:26.240 back from your father's company. Yeah, well, let me explain that. 73 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:33.320 You know, my father, you know, he acquired little insurance companies all 74 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:37.879 throughout the state. And and then also there were a lot of little burial 75 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:45.600 insurance companies in the southeast quadrant of the United States, and those were formed 76 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:50.159 back in the depression days, and so there were limited, you know limits 77 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:56.720 that somebody could write three hundred or five hundred dollars. But as inflation increased, 78 00:09:56.840 --> 00:10:01.559 there was a need to have a lord policy, you know, one 79 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:05.720 thousand dollars or five thousand. But to do that you had to form a 80 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:09.600 legal reserve company, and there was only one in the state of Mississippi at 81 00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:16.879 the time, and you had to put up maybe one hundred thousand dollars as 82 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:22.279 a s grow to guarantee the payment of those claims. And so my father 83 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:26.559 and mother formed a company to do just that, and then they went around 84 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:31.840 to these other funeral homes that had these limits and said, look, when 85 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:33.759 you hit that, you know, you write your insurance. But then when 86 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:37.519 you need that next level policy, you know, write it with us if 87 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:41.120 you will, you know. And so at one point my dad had about 88 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:48.159 one hundred different funeral homes producing into his company and throughout the state, both 89 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:54.879 black and white. And so the company grew, and I said, see, 90 00:10:56.120 --> 00:11:00.480 eventually it owned a string of mortgage companies and a string of finance news, 91 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:07.759 etc. And so he was operating that into the business. And so 92 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:13.600 with one of those companies that he acquired was in with the largest singular funeral 93 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:20.600 home in Mississippi was writing Ferguson, and so he had an agreement that when 94 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:26.200 he bought their insurance company, that they would continue to produce policies into his 95 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:31.840 company as part of the purchase price. And so they had a contract for 96 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:37.000 that to happen, and that had been ratified like two times, you know, 97 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:41.399 in other words, that it might have been a ten year contract, 98 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:45.840 and then it was renewed for another ten years, and then he was in 99 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:52.799 his third quadrant of renewals when the family decided to sell the funeral home. 100 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:58.200 And of course we were in competition with another local funeral home down here on 101 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:05.120 the coast that Loewens whooped in and bought, and they became a regional one 102 00:12:05.159 --> 00:12:09.919 of one of those regional partners, and so they basically took Loewen's chuck book 103 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:18.440 to run around and buy other funeral homes to grow their acquisition base. And 104 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:22.519 so one of the funeral homes he bought was the one in Jackson that we 105 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:26.320 had the agreement with, and because we were competitors on the coast, I 106 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:35.360 think he kind of carried that attitude into that arrangement in Jackson and walked in 107 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:37.960 one day and said, well, we're not producing into that company anymore. 108 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:46.679 It was really the regional part that breached that contract. And so so that's 109 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:52.240 what started the disagreement legally. And and of course my dad flew to Canada, 110 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:56.399 sat down with Ready on his bode and you know, encouraged him to 111 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:00.240 honor the agreement. And he says, well, you know, the way 112 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:03.120 we can honor it is you sell us some of your funeral homes, or 113 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:05.720 you sell us your funeral homes, and we'll work it out, you know. 114 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:07.799 And and that's why my day said, well, you know, they're 115 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:13.799 just not for sale. And so that's where the dispute arose. And uh. 116 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:18.000 And then of course, uh, as I mentioned, time went on 117 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:24.840 and we were about to go to trial, and then there was an effort 118 00:13:24.919 --> 00:13:28.360 to settle the arrangement, you know, settle you know, in other words, 119 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:33.120 reach a settlement agreement, which we did and uh, but then that 120 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:37.480 wasn't honored either, and so that's when the damages even got more serious and 121 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:43.120 so forth. So the loan group just had the history, is it. 122 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:46.720 The loan group just decided to day, he's a little guy, I'm not 123 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:50.960 going to pay him or I'm not going to run my age, yeah, 124 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:56.519 you know, and and uh, and my understanding is that you know, 125 00:13:56.639 --> 00:14:01.120 the competitor on the on the coast that they do, you know, that 126 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:07.799 became a regional partner. He learned of the settlement agreement, which involved selling 127 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:13.559 their insurance company to US, in addition to rolling a bunch of pre arranged 128 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:18.799 trust funeral funds into that into the tune at ten or fifteen million, and 129 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:24.759 so he flew to Canada with his dad and he was kind of like, 130 00:14:24.440 --> 00:14:28.919 no, no, you're not making no deal with my competitor, you know. 131 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:33.360 And so Llewen was kind of in a situation where he was either going 132 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:37.720 to get sued by US or get sued by his own regional partner, you 133 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:43.519 know, theoretically and possibly, And so I think he just chose not to 134 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:50.399 you know, dishonor the arrangement he had with one of his own regional partners 135 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:58.519 over you know, settling with US. And so that's where he didn't settle 136 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:05.759 and uh and kind of acquiesced to the demands of his his regional partner. 137 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:13.000 And so uh, I think that was part of what also happened in the 138 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:20.039 whole deal as it turned out. And and there was evidence that backed that 139 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:26.480 up as we got into the trial and and discovery was was brought forth and 140 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:35.360 whatnot. Yeah. Yeah, so there there was a paper trail and it 141 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:41.919 led the substantiated Yeah what what I just communicated? Yeah, there was there 142 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:46.080 was a note and uh, you know, and there there was communication from 143 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:52.279 the gentleman that we met with how to reach a settlement agreement that you know, 144 00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:58.000 if if ore competitor learned of that, then in all likelihood they would 145 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:03.879 torpedo. And that's kind of what is happening on it. You know. 146 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:07.720 So did you get to see the movie? Yeah? I saw the movie, 147 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:15.399 and it sounds like they took some of the cliff notes way out of 148 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:21.960 some of the evidence gathering in things that you just described. Yeah, yeah, 149 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:25.559 a little better. Yeah, yeah, I mean they you know, 150 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:30.399 they took a lot of liberties and making the movie. But it was a 151 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:34.879 very complex situation to add best, you know. I mean, there were 152 00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:41.960 a lot of moving parts that led to where this thing went. But you 153 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:45.000 know, they essentially you know, and it's kind of like when we were 154 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:49.639 meeting down in New Orleans while the filming was going on, and I was 155 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:55.720 talking with the executive from Amazon, and I was telling him. I said, 156 00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:00.399 you're doing this movie, and you're doing it from the point of the 157 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:04.960 conflict to the end of the verdict. I said, but you know, 158 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:07.960 what you really had here was a mini series. I mean, this thing 159 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:14.640 went on four and a half years before it went to trial. And then 160 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:19.119 I said, the ramifications after trial, whereas the riveting is the trial itself. 161 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:23.880 And so you know, but I mean, in fairness to them, 162 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:30.480 you know, they had to take a very complex matter and try to cliff 163 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:37.839 noted down into you know, a deliverable, understandable sequence. And so with 164 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:44.720 that, you know, there was some liberties taken. And I think I 165 00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:52.079 might have mentioned to you earlier possibly, but we the family had created a 166 00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:59.400 website called the Burial dot org and it's the burial dot org without a dash 167 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:03.319 between the and burial. It's just one word, the burial dot org. 168 00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:11.480 And if you go to that, there's a lot of actual documentation in and 169 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:17.279 around the time of the trial. There's many stories that were written about it 170 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:23.160 that are very very accurate. There's a few video clips that talked to and 171 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:30.000 reaccounted what happened in the case, and so there's a lot of very very 172 00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:37.759 interesting information in the top right hand corners of the toolbar that leads you to 173 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:47.119 a just a plethora of information and there's even a fact versus fiction section in 174 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:52.440 there that the family put together for the inquiring mind. Yeah, one of 175 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:57.599 the other questions I had it was in the movie because I know that when 176 00:18:57.720 --> 00:19:04.240 business ventures go go sideways sometimes that it also causes stress in the family. 177 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:11.799 Were you guys all united together with that or was there any real stress between 178 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:17.960 maybe your mom and dad or the rest of the family over what was going 179 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:25.079 on. No, No, we were all united in that. You know, 180 00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:33.720 my father by and Lord of course he was a fourth generation funeral director 181 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:38.319 that you know, the business was established well, we pegged the date at 182 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:44.000 the conclusion of the Civil War, even though our family owned land prior to 183 00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:51.319 the Civil War and was working the land. They and Edward o'keeffeen enlisted in 184 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:55.519 the Live Oak Rifles Infantry of the Civil War, but he returned home to 185 00:19:55.559 --> 00:20:00.599 work the land following the Civil War, and thus, you know, uh, 186 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:06.160 that's where the origins of the business began. He was basically a glorified 187 00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:11.319 taxi driver. He had horses and wagons and he would people used to travel 188 00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:15.880 to the town because there were these natural artesian wells that the water flowed up 189 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:19.559 out of the ground and they were said to be of a healing nature. 190 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:26.400 And so people would travel who were sick by stage coach or train ocean springs, 191 00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:30.160 and he would meet him at the train depot or the stage coach and 192 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:34.160 bring him out to the hotel and out to the springs and back and you 193 00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:37.880 know, with the hopes of being healed and and of course if some of 194 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:45.079 them weren't healed and passed, why then oftentimes we were called to carry you 195 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:48.119 know, take put them on the wagon and carry him out to the cemetery. 196 00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:49.839 And that's kind of how we got into it, you know, in 197 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:53.880 the beginnings. But uh, but my father, you know, he was 198 00:20:55.000 --> 00:21:00.559 a fourth generation. But as far as the the insurance side of the business, 199 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:03.880 we were much like all of the funeral homes. We just had our 200 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:08.680 own little burial insurance. And my father was the one who you know, 201 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:15.640 conceived the idea of forming a legal reserve company and serving funeral homes statewide, 202 00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:22.160 and so he built all of that. And so when he went into this 203 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:27.319 dispute, you know, there was a number of you know, family members 204 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:32.400 that worked in the life insurance company. Some worked in the funeral home. 205 00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:38.440 I had already acquired the funeral home operation from my dad at that point prior 206 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:45.519 to the conflict, so I owned the funeral homes at that time, and 207 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:49.640 my father and I were working in tandem together, and I was a plaintiff 208 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:55.960 end the trial with him. During the conflict, I spent my thirty ninth 209 00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:00.200 birthday on the witness stand for two days, you know, the day of 210 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:03.920 and the day after, and and so you know, was there the whole 211 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:11.119 way. But there was never any dissension or you know, uh, you 212 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:18.440 know, non unification about you know, the facts were on our side. 213 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:22.480 I mean, we knew we had a contract that simply wasn't being honored. 214 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:26.759 And uh, of course, you know, the reality is when you go 215 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:30.440 to trial, particularly with a jury, I mean, you don't know how 216 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.119 that thing's going to go. You know, you never know. I mean, 217 00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:37.759 it's it's anybody's game once you get in there with you know, a 218 00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:41.480 live jury. And so we were, you know, certainly up against that, 219 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:45.920 and uh what we believed that you know, we had a solid position 220 00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:52.839 and that the facts were on our side. Yeah. The thing I want 221 00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:57.519 to make make this clear how important is or what does it? What does 222 00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:04.480 the insurance actually you do? Does it guarantee the payment after a person passes 223 00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:08.160 that it helps the family pay for the funeral? Is that what that does? 224 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:17.200 Yes, exactly, It's basically you pay a small premium and then of 225 00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:22.000 course if death occurs, then when and if it does, why the insurance 226 00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:30.759 money pays for helps pay for the funeral. And so there's been variations of 227 00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:37.799 the type of coverage over the years. Initially, there were small policies written 228 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:42.680 that just had a small fixed base value, like three hundred five hundred dollars, 229 00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:47.319 and that was the max you could write in one company, and so 230 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:52.279 they'd form another company and they'd write three or four policies to that limit. 231 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:56.960 And then when that limit, you know, was succeeded by inflation, then 232 00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:02.920 they would form an ordinary life policy. It'd be like a thousand dollars. 233 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:07.559 It was not tied to being having to be paid to the funeral home, 234 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:14.599 but it was coverage for funerals. And then later evolved the pre arranged policy 235 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:19.480 itself, which was actually tied to the funeral that had dividend growth and kind 236 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:25.039 of kept up with inflation. So there's been different products over the years, 237 00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:32.039 but basically it's all in an effort to soften the financial blow of anybody having 238 00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:36.839 to bury a loved one. So it's kind kind of a it is kind 239 00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:41.720 of like a life insurance policy, but it is. Yes, it is 240 00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:48.480 just designed to pay for the funeral. Yeah, it's it's yeah, yeah, 241 00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:51.519 that's the easiest way to look at it. It's like a life policy 242 00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:56.400 designed to pay for the funeral. Okay, that makes sense, And I 243 00:24:56.440 --> 00:25:00.079 can see how they can be kind of kind of lucrative, you know that 244 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:04.559 for your family to get into, and probably necessary for your family to get 245 00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:15.839 into to help make sure because hey, sometimes funerals get expensive. With with 246 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:22.359 that being said, there was in the movie it says something about it sounded 247 00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:30.599 like a beaten switch sort of thing where they would sell a lower end product 248 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:36.200 for for a much larger markup depending on where where the person was when they 249 00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:42.920 where their families were in in uh in Mississippi or or yeah, you know, 250 00:25:44.119 --> 00:25:49.640 I think I think what they were trying to get to was that that 251 00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:56.319 families were being put upon and and this really you know, I don't think 252 00:25:56.599 --> 00:26:03.920 the movie told it succinctly like it was told to the jury, which was 253 00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:08.079 one of the things that kind of incensed the jury was the fact that, 254 00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:15.720 you know, like Loewen went into one town and there were three independent funeral 255 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:21.440 homes in that town by different names, and then they quietly bought all three 256 00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:26.720 of those and then they systematically raised the prices on all of them. And 257 00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:30.000 so if somebody wasn't happy, you know, you know, went to the 258 00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:33.839 other funeral home, they were still going to lower, you know, and 259 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:38.119 so they were you know, they would keep the existing names of the businesses, 260 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:42.079 so nobody knew that Lowen owned them, but they you know, but 261 00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:48.119 lowing and they raised all those prices. If they were in another town where 262 00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:52.400 they had a lower funeral home and a real competitor that they didn't own, 263 00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:59.519 then they kept the prices lower there. So they were selectively taking advantage of 264 00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:03.440 people where they could, where they had captive markets. And and that's what 265 00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:11.480 that's what we you know, proved as one of the anti trust issues in 266 00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:15.880 our case. And that was what really and since the jury was that they 267 00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:22.240 were selectively taking advantage of people, and uh and so I think the movie 268 00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:27.240 was trying to project that when they had the people on the stand and they 269 00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:32.920 were talking about being taken advantage of and that sort of thing, but it 270 00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:37.200 didn't really kind of drive it home like that explanation I just gave you. 271 00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:45.079 Yeah, that's that's a better explanation in that it sounds like they're trying to 272 00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:51.799 form a monopoly. Well, well they did in some towns, you know, 273 00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:56.680 and and whatnot. And in fact that the truth is that Loewen had 274 00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:03.400 already been cited for anti trust issue or too before they ever got to Mississippi. 275 00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:10.880 So this wasn't something new and uh and and it may have been something 276 00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:17.039 that our legal team that ferreted out as a potential, uh, you know, 277 00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:22.119 soft spot for whether they were conducting business. Yeah, I could see 278 00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:27.359 how maybe a judgment or somebody would want to I want to add that to 279 00:28:27.400 --> 00:28:33.960 two if the evidence like that would add to the punitive damages. Because if 280 00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:37.960 you if you were cited in say I'm just making this up out of my 281 00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:42.200 head. If you if you're being cited in Mississippi for anti trust issues, 282 00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:48.000 but you were cited in say, Alabama for the same ana trust issues, 283 00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:53.160 it's gonna it's gonna kind of weigh against you in the new in the new 284 00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:57.440 trial, isn't it. Yeah, no, yeah, it would, it 285 00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:03.400 would, And so yeah, I mean so those were some of the things. 286 00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:07.960 And then there were other liberties taken. For example, the uh uh 287 00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:14.240 you know, there wasn't a black female that was on the lead council for 288 00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:18.000 the Loewen group. You know, she was simply invented by the uh, 289 00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:25.400 the director, Maggie Betts. You know, she's a black female director, 290 00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:32.359 and she wanted to inject a strong black female presence in this movie, you 291 00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:37.440 know. And and of course Jerreny Smaller did a beautiful job with that, 292 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.000 and uh, you know, did a fine job. But that's just one 293 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:47.799 of the things that you know, they used as a liberty too. And 294 00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:52.880 and you know the part where they put one of our attorneys, Michael Alread, 295 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:59.920 on the stand and basically ferreted out that his dad was a KKK member 296 00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:06.039 and all that my grandfather, uh our our attorney, Michael Redd, which 297 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:08.519 was there, really was a Michael Redd and he was never even put on 298 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:14.960 the witness stand. So all of that was just made up and uh and 299 00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:19.079 and so the whole part about part of our legal team being unhappy and going 300 00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:22.559 back to Florida and all of that. None of that happened. I mean, 301 00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:27.079 our our legal team was unified the whole way. Those were just things 302 00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:33.519 that you know, were added to the script, you know, to hythen 303 00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:40.079 uh some of uh, you know, the storyline and so forth. Yeah, 304 00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:48.000 the bas Hollywood formula exactly. Yeah. Yeah, so so anyway, 305 00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:52.640 Uh, but you know it seems to you know, the movie retained the 306 00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:56.480 number one spot in the nation for Amazon Prime for near a month, you 307 00:30:56.559 --> 00:31:02.680 know, and uh uh and then you know, still hung at number two 308 00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:06.119 and number three, and was number one in a lot of foreign countries. 309 00:31:06.599 --> 00:31:10.279 Yeah, when it was released, and so it's been well received. You 310 00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:15.440 know, we're hopeful that you know that the production team and all and actors 311 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:19.680 may you know, get some award nominations for the movie and so forth. 312 00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:26.359 Yeah, that's that's always always fun. At the end of the film, 313 00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:37.119 there was some video footage of your your family's business. So has it helped 314 00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:41.759 helped you guys? Any with a little fame in the town Biloxie. Well, 315 00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:47.440 Biloxi is not exactly a small area, is it. Uh No, 316 00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:51.519 it's it's it's more of uh, you know, it's a coastal city. 317 00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:56.839 We're along the Gulf Mississippi Gulf Coast. We're in three different cities, and 318 00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:05.359 so we're you know, actually four or more of cities along the coast. 319 00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:10.920 So but it is kind of more it's not a big population base like New 320 00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:16.200 Orleans or Mobile, Alabama, you know, some of these larger cities. 321 00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:22.359 You know, it's it's more rural in nature. But at any rate, 322 00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:25.799 yeah, well, I mean, obviously, you know, we've been in 323 00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:31.160 business. You know, twenty and twenty five will be our one hundred and 324 00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:37.359 sixtieth year, So we've been in business a long long time along the coast. 325 00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:46.000 Each generation of o'keefes has been involved either militarily, politically or civically since 326 00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:52.000 you know, the Civil War and so so our name is you know, 327 00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:58.640 it been synonymous with the Gulf Coast in one of those fashions for near one 328 00:32:58.680 --> 00:33:01.400 hundred and sixty years now. So obviously a lot of you know, we're 329 00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:10.519 fairly fairly well known. And my father was a legislator for a while and 330 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:21.400 uh and then also let me see he was he was in the state legislature 331 00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:23.640 in Jackson, Missus. He was a two time mayor of the city of 332 00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:30.279 Biloxi. And so my great uncle was the mayor of the city of Biloxi, 333 00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:36.319 and he was the Adjutant General of the Mississippi National Guard. And uh 334 00:33:36.599 --> 00:33:43.599 and so with those political posts over the years. A great grandfather of mine 335 00:33:43.759 --> 00:33:49.400 was an alderman in Ocean Springs, So you know, the name's been around 336 00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:53.119 for a long So when the movie came out, and uh and of course, 337 00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:57.559 you know, at the time of the trial, if you if you 338 00:33:57.640 --> 00:34:01.279 look at that site that I indicated to you, I mean it drew national 339 00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:08.360 Yeah, it drew national attention at that time. I mean Time magazine had 340 00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:14.000 an article on it. There was an article in the New Yorker. Yeah, 341 00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:19.960 I mean there there was quite a bit of high profile exposure about that. 342 00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:23.079 At the time. I believe it might have been the second largest verdict 343 00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:29.239 in the nation, and it was certainly the largest verdict in Mississippi. So 344 00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:35.599 uh So when the movie came out, a lot of people, actually, 345 00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:37.800 you know, I've heard from a number of people they didn't even know it 346 00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:43.719 pertained to the family. They just saw it advertised with Jamie Fox and Tommy 347 00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:45.760 Lee Jones and thought they had watched it, and then they were bowled over 348 00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:51.519 when they realized what it was about. And uh and so we've heard from 349 00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:54.280 a number of people in that regard, you know, but uh, but 350 00:34:54.440 --> 00:35:00.400 yeah, I mean it's definitely you know, an interesting Uh. I've had 351 00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:07.599 a number of calls for you know, interviews about the movie from different groups 352 00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:12.519 and uh and there's still a few more yet to come, but uh and 353 00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:15.679 some you know within the industry, and so uh so, yeah, it's 354 00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:21.280 kind of, you know, been interesting to go back into all of that 355 00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:25.079 twenty seven years after it happened. You know, Yeah, well, how 356 00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:31.639 were you were you satisfied with the job that Amazon did overall in their production 357 00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:37.960 team? Yeah, I mean we're you know, it's not the story we 358 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:45.320 would have told. You know, in fact, they had some other fought 359 00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:51.760 or written into the story that we absolutely objected to, and they graciously at 360 00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:54.880 least remove a couple of points from it, you know. So, uh, 361 00:35:55.239 --> 00:36:00.480 they were kind of tray and my father to be more fun finantially downtrodden 362 00:36:00.519 --> 00:36:06.840 and this and that to height and I think the intensity of the verdict, 363 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:13.280 but you know, it just you know, wasn't necessarily that wasn't the case. 364 00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:17.440 And uh and you know they projected in the movie when he was on 365 00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:23.039 cross examination that his license had been suspended, and that never happened. I 366 00:36:23.079 --> 00:36:28.519 mean, that was all made up. Well you know, uh, I 367 00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:31.880 mean I don't think you probably know my father, but he was a World 368 00:36:31.960 --> 00:36:38.880 War Two fighter ace pilot, uh with the Marines, and he was an 369 00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:43.880 honorable man, yes, and and then and they were kind of you know, 370 00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:49.679 rejecting him to be having his license suspended and this and that he was 371 00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:53.840 an honorable businessman and so that wasn't setting well, you know, with with 372 00:36:53.960 --> 00:37:00.480 me personally. And uh, I don't know if you're aware, but shortly 373 00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:06.920 after the trial, my father sold the rights to the movie. Both he 374 00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:13.719 and Willie Gary, the attorney, signed rights with Bobby Shreiver And that's John 375 00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:19.480 F. Kennedy's nephew, John F. Kennedy. His sister Eunice, that's 376 00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:24.079 her son. And he bought the rights to the movie in nineteen ninety six, 377 00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:30.239 right after the settlement of the trial in nineteen ninety five, and so 378 00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:36.000 he had the rights at that time. And I think my father thought that 379 00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:42.119 they would largely track the accurate article that was written by Jonathan Horror in The 380 00:37:42.199 --> 00:37:51.679 New Yorker, but they hired Doug Wright, who is a politziprized writer screenplaywriter, 381 00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:55.400 and so he took kind of a different take, you know, and 382 00:37:55.639 --> 00:38:01.320 he's the one that injected a lot of that subjectivity into it for the story 383 00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:07.000 height and awareness and storyline and so forth. And so when you know, 384 00:38:07.159 --> 00:38:14.079 we didn't get we weren't privy to the script until I was driving to New 385 00:38:14.199 --> 00:38:17.840 Orleans for them for the film, and so I'm literally reading it on the 386 00:38:17.880 --> 00:38:22.719 way over there, and I'm reading about you know, they had this point 387 00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:29.679 in there where they're attacking a license suspension notice on the funeral, which that's 388 00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:34.760 never happened. I'm operating a business here in South Mississippi, and I mean, 389 00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:43.840 my business license has never been suspended. And so so anyway, I'm 390 00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:47.000 in the lobby of the hotel and Bobby Shreiver's there, you know, and 391 00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:52.280 he comes up to, Man, what would you dad think about this movie? 392 00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:55.480 Wouldn't he be excited about this movie being made twenty seven years after? 393 00:38:55.559 --> 00:38:59.679 And I said, well, I'll tell you the truth. I think he'd 394 00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:02.199 want to whip Doug Writ's ass for writing that script the way he wrote it, 395 00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:04.960 you know, And he's, oh, come on, man, it's 396 00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:07.679 just a movie. It's just a movie, you know, And I said 397 00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:09.159 no, no, I said, he'd want to whip his ass. I 398 00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:13.000 said, you know, he wouldn't be going for that, you know, 399 00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:15.360 And oh, come on, man, you know, and so anyway, 400 00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:22.440 but but you know, basically, and I've voiced my concerns to the executive 401 00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:25.639 producer for Amazon and he said, look, Jeff, he said, just 402 00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:29.920 give us a chance, Just give us a chance to you know, we're 403 00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:32.079 going to work. Just your dad's going to come off being loved in this 404 00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:37.599 movie and get you know, be a good guy and all that. He 405 00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:39.280 said, just give us a chance, you know. And so when we 406 00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:44.000 saw the first cut, you know, they had that one thing I mentioned 407 00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:46.960 about the you know, license suspension being tacked on the funeral home, and 408 00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:55.119 then they had him saving Tommy Lee Jones saying that he had taken insurance company 409 00:39:55.159 --> 00:40:01.159 reserves and invested him in the savings and loan went bad. Well, you 410 00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:05.599 know, for those that are in the business that they know, that's an 411 00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:10.159 illegal act. And so here they got my dad, who's an honorable businessman, 412 00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:15.920 doing an illegal act and having the license suspended. And so I said, 413 00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:21.000 you know, we just can't agree to you know, having those you 414 00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:24.280 know, if you take those two things out, you know, then then 415 00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:28.440 you know, we feel like, I mean, that's you know, we'd 416 00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:32.440 like to change more. But I mean they're far up the line on the 417 00:40:32.440 --> 00:40:36.800 they were already filming, you know, they they had the actors, they're 418 00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:39.719 paying them, and they're not going to back up and rewrite the whole move, 419 00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:44.559 you know. So so you know, we knew that, you know, 420 00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:49.719 there was not going to be any opportunity to fully tell the story we 421 00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:52.880 would have told, you know. But uh so, at the end of 422 00:40:52.960 --> 00:40:58.320 the day, I mean, it appears that the movie you know, has 423 00:40:58.400 --> 00:41:04.840 done well and has been well received, and we've received frankly, nothing but 424 00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:08.960 compliments, even in spite of what was left in there, you know. 425 00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:14.719 So uh so overall, we're we're pleased at the end of the day, 426 00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:16.920 you know, I mean, there, you know, we certainly had some 427 00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:23.000 concerns going in, but I did communicate to Scott Fondus with Amazon that he 428 00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:29.679 kept his word, and he and and listen, hats off to Doug Wright 429 00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:36.119 as well, because, even in spite of the little harsh at teas that 430 00:41:36.440 --> 00:41:42.480 he had integrated early on, the movie seems to be very, very popular 431 00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:46.159 and so you know, he's he's still got the touch apparently, you know, 432 00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:52.719 with his writing savviness. So so anyway, uh yeah, I think 433 00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:59.440 overall we're we're pretty pleased with it. Great. All right, Well that's 434 00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:05.920 about all the questions I had for you on today. I want to thank 435 00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:09.400 you for joining us, and I want to thank everybody else for listening. 436 00:42:12.039 --> 00:42:15.679 Jeff, it's been a pleasure meeting you. It's my pleasure to meet you, 437 00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:22.000 Michael, and you know, we we'd be interested to get a little 438 00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:28.840 more feedback. You know, you're home based in Canada there if if you 439 00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:34.119 hear or see, you know, any particular things up in that neighborhood concerning 440 00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:39.039 the movie, please let us know about it. I sure will. Thanks 441 00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:46.079 again, Jeff R. Okay, So, as as we thought that, 442 00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:52.440 yeah, there were some liberties taken, and the o'key family did sign off 443 00:42:52.440 --> 00:43:00.320 on some so that this story could actually get out there, and we did 444 00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:10.239 discover that the O'Keefe family has been a staple in the Biloxi community since the 445 00:43:10.519 --> 00:43:22.000 American Civil War and continues to serve the people around them faithfully and diligently. 446 00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:27.800 So I do want to thank Jeff O'Keefe for appearing with us. It was 447 00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:31.760 a real pleasure to meet him and to speak with him. And I want 448 00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:37.880 to thank another friend of mine who actually made the introduction, Tom Crean, 449 00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:46.280 who is a funeral director and part of the Kearney's funeral home system here close 450 00:43:46.360 --> 00:44:35.159 to my home. 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