1 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:20,320 Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster movies and psychoanalyze them. 2 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,359 My name is Bernie Brownfield and I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by 3 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,679 Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We 4 00:00:27,719 --> 00:00:31,600 are all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists, who practice out of 5 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,759 Chicago. Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast is purely 6 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:40,200 for entertainment purposes and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture in all forms. 7 00:00:40,359 --> 00:00:43,600 Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists, we aren't 8 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,000 your therapist. If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find a 9 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:52,079 local mental health provider. Buckle up, everybody, because we are going into 10 00:00:52,119 --> 00:00:55,479 a dream, and then into another dream, and then into another dream, 11 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,479 and then into another dream. Because we're finally talking about a much requested movie, 12 00:01:00,039 --> 00:01:04,799 Ristopher Nolan's Inception, y'all, So everybody get excited, Yes, get 13 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:11,120 excited. And we also have a guest with us today who specializes in some 14 00:01:11,159 --> 00:01:12,760 of the concepts will be talking about. I mean, hopefully all of our 15 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:18,280 guests specialize some of the things we were talking about but this feels especially nice 16 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:19,879 to have someone here, so I will throw to him. Go ahead and 17 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:25,680 introduce yourself. Hello, everybody, My name's doctor Isaac Tights. I'm the 18 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:33,560 president of All Mind Health and All Sleep Health Clinical Psychological Services Corporation in California. 19 00:01:34,079 --> 00:01:38,560 I specialize in helping patients get better sleep, and for those that do, 20 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:44,840 we can also work on and utilize their dreams for their benefit to improve 21 00:01:44,879 --> 00:01:49,319 with anxiety, ADHD, trauma, and whatever else ails them. I present 22 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:56,799 at comic cons talking about the science and psychology of different topics, including the 23 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,120 Sandman series, which is a very dreamy one that connected to this one here. 24 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:06,040 Fun fact, when Inception came out, I was actually doing my honors 25 00:02:06,079 --> 00:02:10,599 thesis back at Cornell on lucid dreaming, so I managed to get twice as 26 00:02:10,599 --> 00:02:19,319 many participants as I intended. Makes sense, Yeah, So let me try 27 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,840 to explain Inception briefly for anyone who's listening who for whatever reason, hasn't seen 28 00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:29,360 it. Basically, we're joining Leonardo DiCaprio as plays Dom Who. It's basically 29 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:30,680 a heist movie, if you want to think about like that. So he 30 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:35,199 is the head of a heist in which they go into people's dreams and they 31 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,039 steal from them in their dreams. So it's obviously a science fiction movie, 32 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,680 so there's gonna be some topics of them that we're going to try to make 33 00:02:42,759 --> 00:02:46,319 some sense of as much as you can within a science fiction movie. So 34 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,080 we're gonna be talking about dreaming and consciousness, kind of like the fact versus 35 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,680 fiction. I'm also gonna be talking a lot about that main character, Leonard 36 00:02:53,680 --> 00:03:00,840 DiCaprio dom and his deceased wife mall that name, and the trauma, grief 37 00:03:00,879 --> 00:03:05,039 and shame. You know, we've been really on a rip about trauma, 38 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,800 grief and shame in this show lately, so apologies, we didn't realize that 39 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:14,879 every movie we picked recently, somebody is dealing with the death of somebody very 40 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:20,759 close to them because some kind of traumatic way. Yes, it's almost like 41 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,360 that can be the impetus for so many great stories. Yeah, it really 42 00:03:24,439 --> 00:03:30,840 is, though. The theme of this season like every Disney movie ever or 43 00:03:30,879 --> 00:03:35,120 the origin of the best comic book here that's ever been. M h, 44 00:03:35,879 --> 00:03:42,639 spider Man, you almost got me there, all right, Batman, you 45 00:03:42,719 --> 00:03:46,479 can't conjure it first, Okay, you can't conjure it first. Oh I 46 00:03:46,759 --> 00:03:51,039 forgot. See my new game is to get you guys to say it before 47 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,599 me. So you just fell into a trauma. There is a villain of 48 00:03:55,599 --> 00:04:02,479 Spider Man on occasion. That's true. That's true. So let's talk about 49 00:04:02,479 --> 00:04:08,319 this movie. This movie was definitely something that took over the imagination and the 50 00:04:08,319 --> 00:04:12,039 discussion point of the nation when it came out. I remember this one being 51 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,759 one that people left the theater talking about. And it's not common that we 52 00:04:15,759 --> 00:04:19,720 get to see movies with people going like my mind just broke, but this 53 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:24,759 one didn't. Why do you guys think this one broke people's brains so profoundly 54 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:29,959 that they actually left the theater going what well? I think I mean, 55 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,519 just from I know this is kind of final thoughts territory, but just from 56 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,959 I think the look of it, it felt like it happened at a perfect 57 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,959 time, this movie where you hadn't really there's no Doctor Strange yet like Marvel 58 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,040 was still kind of kicking up in a big way. And so this movie 59 00:04:45,199 --> 00:04:48,079 visually was just so different than a lot of things that we had seen. 60 00:04:48,639 --> 00:04:53,360 And I think there's so going back to Moore, may I think where you're 61 00:04:53,399 --> 00:04:59,639 asking Ben is dreaming is still something that is really mysterious to us. It's 62 00:04:59,639 --> 00:05:04,160 one of the things we can't control really, And this idea that you could 63 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,480 I mean lucid dreaming, Sure you can, definitely. I don't know a 64 00:05:08,519 --> 00:05:10,639 lot about this stuff, so you can score me as much as you'd like. 65 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:15,120 Isaac will Is, I think just this idea that you can go into 66 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,920 your dreams, into a space where we're very vulnerable. And also it's a 67 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,720 good ass heist movie. Like I think that's also part of why. But 68 00:05:21,759 --> 00:05:27,800 I think this idea that someone could go into your mind in this way, 69 00:05:27,959 --> 00:05:32,319 I think just wigs people out. And I certainly think so Isaac and Hannah, 70 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,160 what about you? What do you guys think? Why did this movie 71 00:05:34,199 --> 00:05:41,600 capture people's imagination and attention so hard? And up? Hannah's cats are interfering? 72 00:05:42,319 --> 00:05:46,000 Yeah, sorry, something other than us? God, that's not allowed. 73 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,160 Well, and she had like a mini stroke a couple of weeks ago, 74 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:59,360 so she's a little weird. So anyway, perhaps ye way to bring 75 00:05:59,399 --> 00:06:05,360 it into me maybe just waiting for that opportunity. But what definitely can capture 76 00:06:05,399 --> 00:06:10,360 people's attention. In addition to these kind of clever names, and we're going 77 00:06:10,439 --> 00:06:13,759 to hear a whole lot about how clever these names are in a little bit, 78 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,519 but definitely the element of dreaming, which is so important, so integral. 79 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:23,720 Everybody experiences this. This is one thing that unites all humans is that 80 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,399 we know what a dream is. We've experienced it. We may not remember 81 00:06:27,439 --> 00:06:30,240 it so much because we're working so late and we're barely getting any sleep, 82 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:35,279 but that's a different issue altogether. And our dream worlds feel so fantastical to 83 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:43,240 be able to see it represented a pretty solid way on screen. Granted, 84 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,879 I don't know if any of your dreams or nightmares have that bomb sound effects 85 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,399 so often, but that also captures people's attention too. I imagine, well, 86 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,920 Hannah listens to enough Hans Zimmer that I wouldn't be shocked if her dreams 87 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:00,319 said have that sound in them. Yeah, that's definitely true, only a 88 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,360 true thing. You know what's really funny is, I didn't see this movie 89 00:07:04,759 --> 00:07:11,759 when everybody saw this movie. I saw this movie maybe like five years ago 90 00:07:12,519 --> 00:07:15,360 roughly or something like that. Like, it's not a movie that I saw 91 00:07:15,439 --> 00:07:20,040 when it was really popular. So, but I would imagine just the idea 92 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:26,199 of having something that talks so specifically about dreams in that way, and everybody's 93 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,959 so interested in dreams in such a general way that I feel like, of 94 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:35,000 course people were talking about it because it's not something that it's something that like 95 00:07:35,079 --> 00:07:40,000 people might ask you a question about if you're a therapist, because I get 96 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:46,920 that question all the time, what about this dream I had? But also 97 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:50,399 it just seems like people are so interested in They're just interested in talking about 98 00:07:50,439 --> 00:07:54,040 it, and I think it's fun to talk about in some ways too. 99 00:07:54,399 --> 00:07:59,279 But Hannah brings up an interesting point, which is, well, I'm reminded 100 00:07:59,319 --> 00:08:01,920 of the fact that you guys remember when you were little and you would see 101 00:08:01,959 --> 00:08:05,360 a movie and afterwards you'd be like, I want to be just like that 102 00:08:05,439 --> 00:08:09,439 character, Like I'm gonna do this thing like that character. Here everybody gets 103 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,519 a little bit of that again, like you get to kind of connect with 104 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,360 that little channel, be like I could maybe do that in my dreams tonight. 105 00:08:16,639 --> 00:08:20,879 Maybe like I could literally do the thing and that for all the crazy 106 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,079 stunts that happened, like, oh yeah, I shouldn't probably practice this at 107 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,920 home. I'm not a trained professional, but in your dreams, you could, 108 00:08:28,079 --> 00:08:31,399 you know, run around on the walls and the ceilings in some weird 109 00:08:31,519 --> 00:08:37,600 zero G situation if you might, Well, I'm really interested because I don't 110 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,559 know a lot about this at all as because it's not my area of expertise. 111 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:48,039 But I'm really interested in kind of what stands out in this movie as 112 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:54,279 being like total BS in terms of dreaming and consciousness, and then what are 113 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,879 things that as like this field of expertise or even I know that then you 114 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,240 also have gotten more into this stuff with like hypnosis and NBR and that kind 115 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,679 of thing, like what FLAGS is like more realistic than you thought? And 116 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,000 then what FLAGS is like total BS? When I was watching this movie, 117 00:09:09,039 --> 00:09:13,279 all I could think was is Freud would just eat this movie up or be 118 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:18,840 totally enraged by this movie one or the other. That's kind of the extent 119 00:09:18,919 --> 00:09:24,159 of the actual dreaming consciousness part, because that's just not a wheelhouse psychologically or 120 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:31,919 therapeutically that I've delved into as a therapist. Yeah. Nine, I haven't 121 00:09:31,919 --> 00:09:35,360 seen a single mother in this movie, but the one that killed herself sounds 122 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,399 right like that would be his perspective probably. I think that he would probably 123 00:09:39,519 --> 00:09:48,360 say that nobody wanted to Schwang. They wanted was a spinkle. Anyway, 124 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:50,840 I had to be sorry. I had to make her friend's reference from my 125 00:09:50,879 --> 00:09:52,600 wife. If she listens and I didn't do that, she would be mad 126 00:09:52,639 --> 00:09:58,919 at me. So it had to The joeyous Freud reference had to come through. 127 00:09:58,519 --> 00:10:03,639 But I think, you know, starting to look at this, Isaac, 128 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,559 this is definitely your area of expertise. Tell us what what kind of 129 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:11,480 truth and what kind of nonsense did you see in this dream and within a 130 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:16,559 dream within a dream heist movie. So I'll start actually with the viral marketing 131 00:10:16,879 --> 00:10:22,000 that they put out about a year or so beforehand. Like I mentioned, 132 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,879 I was working on my honest thesis at the time, and so I was 133 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:31,399 researching different dream researchers and just trying to kind of, you know, see 134 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,840 who's doing what. And I saw a YouTube video of a few of the 135 00:10:37,159 --> 00:10:41,600 various members of the International Association for the Study of Dreams, of which now 136 00:10:41,639 --> 00:10:45,480 I'm a member, and I'm okay. I hear them talking about, you 137 00:10:45,519 --> 00:10:48,360 know, lucid dreaming. How cool. Yeah, I want to study that, 138 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:52,960 and then another character would appear on the screen. They didn't give a 139 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,039 name, they didn't put a title card to that person, but she started 140 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:01,000 to talk about how, you know, we've been doing experiment mens with soldiers 141 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,759 and getting them to enter into a shared dream, and they're actually able to 142 00:11:03,799 --> 00:11:07,480 communicate and engage with each other. And I almost lost it, and I 143 00:11:07,519 --> 00:11:09,639 was like, what this is real? And I went to the comments section 144 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,279 because just to be sure, and everyone's like, don't get too excited. 145 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,159 This is viral marting, marketing for a new movie coming out. It's like, 146 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,840 oh man, but it sounds like a cool movie. So the element 147 00:11:22,159 --> 00:11:28,840 of being able to affect your dream, to be able to intentionally create some 148 00:11:28,159 --> 00:11:31,679 change or to kind of bring about some change in your dream, that's true. 149 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,360 The aspect of lucid dreaming that we just mentioned before is your ability to 150 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,320 be aware of yourself while you're in the dream and know that it's a dream 151 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,200 and stage dreaming. Some people get too excited about it and then the adrenaline 152 00:11:45,279 --> 00:11:46,679 kicks in and then they wake up, so they can't really have fun. 153 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:54,639 But to be able to maybe morph the setting of your dream, or to 154 00:11:54,679 --> 00:12:00,320 teleport or to sun characters in your own dream, sure, that's been well 155 00:12:00,399 --> 00:12:05,720 researched and validated by a lot of studies, some of which include my own, 156 00:12:05,759 --> 00:12:13,159 So there's definitely something there. Whereas the ability to empirically enter into somebody 157 00:12:13,159 --> 00:12:18,960 else's dream, transmit information, and then how the other person know this without 158 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:26,240 any other communication. We haven't been able to validate that just yet, but 159 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,840 that's science. You can't prove anything, or you can't disprove anything. You 160 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:33,440 can only prove it. So far, that's where we're at. I've had 161 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,440 personal experiences where I believe I've been able to communicate some information with a friend 162 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:39,519 of mine. But then again, if you're friends, you know each other 163 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,960 well enough, you kind of get the vibes of each other. You eventually 164 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:45,960 you would be like, well, what would my friend think of in the 165 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:50,240 situation, and maybe you'll dream of it. So that's one aspect that gets 166 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:56,559 more on the science fiction side of things. In addition, this concept of 167 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:01,960 dreams within of dreams in the field are called nested dreams, kind of like 168 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:07,000 a Russian nested doll, the old the old field you or you know. 169 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:11,240 Colloquially, we used to call them like false awakenings, but we don't want 170 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:16,840 to kind of disqualify what awareness or awakening you may have in your mentality, 171 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,840 so we call them nested dreams. Those happen you guys have probably had or 172 00:13:20,919 --> 00:13:26,240 remember them where you wake up and you think that you're in your in your 173 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,039 bedroom and you go when you start your day, and then something happens you 174 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:33,600 wake them again. It's annowledged. Yeah, it could be, or you 175 00:13:33,639 --> 00:13:37,840 can or you can see it as like, uh, you know a take 176 00:13:37,919 --> 00:13:41,559 two, or you know a second chance. You missed something, you forgot 177 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:46,080 something. Oh cool, I didn't actually embarrass myself in front of the class 178 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,799 while presenting on something without my pants on. I actually get to remember to 179 00:13:50,799 --> 00:13:54,159 put on pants today. Good job. Yeah. I mean, there's no 180 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,759 better feeling than waking up from a dream in which something horrific is happening to 181 00:13:58,919 --> 00:14:03,200 realize that it's happening. I mean, your body still needs a chance of 182 00:14:03,279 --> 00:14:07,559 time to like chill out, and you have to keep reassuring it that it's 183 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,399 not going on. But I know what you mean, Like it's an opportunity 184 00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:15,679 to reframe your thinking of it, because say, I think it's a It's 185 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:20,639 really important to highlight what you said about the body because if you've been listening 186 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:22,440 to this show, you know, or you know one of my clients who 187 00:14:22,519 --> 00:14:28,039 might listen in, you know that I'm gonna hyper focus on understanding the relationship 188 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:33,279 that your brain lives in your body, that the mind brain connection and the 189 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:39,240 division between those is much less significant than sixteenth century philosophers would have us argue, 190 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,000 because the brain is an organ that is in your body, literally wired 191 00:14:43,039 --> 00:14:48,279 in to your entire body through the nervous system. So recognizing that even if 192 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,879 you've had a dream, that it is vitally important to calm your body down. 193 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,159 I am talking from experience because I've done this, had a dream where 194 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,399 I thought something was happening that was add and then woke up and literally needed 195 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,919 to actually calm my physical body down in my awake form because I was still 196 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:11,919 not convinced that the bad was not happening. And that was because my nervous 197 00:15:11,919 --> 00:15:16,759 system was going bananas, because my adrenaline, as Isaac mentioned, was firing. 198 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,080 And it's really important that we have kindness for ourselves, for particularly people 199 00:15:20,159 --> 00:15:26,200 suffered trauma that deal with nightmares, that you recognize the importance that calming your 200 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:33,399 body back down and can regrounding to the reality you're in are separate, but 201 00:15:33,559 --> 00:15:37,799 the processes it must be done at the same time. I wanted to say 202 00:15:37,879 --> 00:15:39,600 separate but simultaneous, but that doesn't even make sense. So I can't say 203 00:15:39,639 --> 00:15:43,039 it out loud, but like my brain wouldn't let me say it, But 204 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:48,320 the concurrent processes you must do, all right, You got to do both. 205 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,559 You gotta calm your body down and you gotta ground to reality. Similarly, 206 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:58,799 how we can tell what reality we're in, waking reality versus dreaming reality 207 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:06,200 can be done by a very mindful check of your space. In fact, 208 00:16:06,639 --> 00:16:14,399 lucid dreaming is positively correlated with mindfulness. So there are such checks that we 209 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,799 can use to tell whether we're awake or whether we're dreaming. Things that we've 210 00:16:18,799 --> 00:16:22,559 empirically had people go into dreams and test and then you know, signal or 211 00:16:22,799 --> 00:16:27,120 communicate upon waking. So some of them actually do involve the body, like 212 00:16:27,279 --> 00:16:32,279 our hands in dreams, they tend to be very malleable. We might have 213 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,480 extra fingers, They may be blurred. They may be very malleable. You 214 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,639 can stretch them like rubber for any one piece. Fans out there might recognize 215 00:16:40,679 --> 00:16:45,840 that one, but in essence they're so you know, outside in our periphery 216 00:16:45,879 --> 00:16:52,320 they appear to be very blurred anyways, but you always have your hands on 217 00:16:52,399 --> 00:16:57,159 you can always test that in what you know is still called reality checks state 218 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:03,599 checks by your check which reality are in, but you do real reality dream 219 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:08,079 there's all out there too. If I saw a Britney's smile, I'm gonna 220 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:11,359 have to tell you that when you started talking about fingers being malleable, I 221 00:17:11,559 --> 00:17:15,079 just saw Britney's brain. I saw right into it directly, and we had 222 00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:21,559 a shared dream right now where I saw Britney's mind go into beetlejuice. No, 223 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,519 I was saying about one piece, because one piece reference not to poop 224 00:17:23,519 --> 00:17:33,559 on your fingers, saying no bullshit. Well no. What also why I 225 00:17:33,599 --> 00:17:37,240 was smiling is because I had a close friend and roommate who used to lucid 226 00:17:37,319 --> 00:17:41,400 dream and she used to have like scary dream like so she did some research 227 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,559 into it to try to help herself, and she realized how she what could 228 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,920 help her kind of start to get out of it is that she noticed that 229 00:17:51,039 --> 00:17:55,079 her blinds, she had up and down blinds like slanted, and that when 230 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,640 the dreams, it would be horizontal. And so once she noticed that, 231 00:17:57,759 --> 00:18:02,720 it would start kind of kicking off a thought process in her brain that this 232 00:18:02,759 --> 00:18:06,200 isn't real, and then it would allow her. And then she learned that 233 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:11,160 if she threw her arm up, like tried to throw her arm up in 234 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,000 her dream. It would wake her up. It would like jostle her awake 235 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,680 because she used to have and they used to always be about not about me. 236 00:18:18,799 --> 00:18:21,400 But she would also describe these dreams and I'd be like, I sound 237 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,279 like like I'm just crawling into your room in the middle of the night and 238 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:30,440 like staring at you like so she would have really unsettling dreams and sorry, 239 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,440 and she learned how that trick that you were saying to kind of help her 240 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,920 to bring her out of it. Yeah, she noticed what are her dream 241 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,640 signs? And each individual will have their own unique dream signs. That's why 242 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,480 if you do want to lucid dream or just get to know your own brain 243 00:18:45,519 --> 00:18:49,880 better, journaling your dreams regularly and then you can see, Okay, what's 244 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:56,359 a common thread, what's a common dream like element that keeps on coming up? 245 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,640 For her, it was the blinds that people might see a big red 246 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:04,319 dog. So whenever you know they see any of these common themes in waking 247 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,119 life, they can start to do a check. So every time you know, 248 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,319 they hear about Clifford, they do a reality check. Okay, Nope, 249 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:17,000 in waking reality, and eventually it becomes a habit and you may catch 250 00:19:17,039 --> 00:19:19,599 yourself in the dream. But like Ben was saying, you gotta calm yourself 251 00:19:19,599 --> 00:19:23,359 down because it's still you in that dream if you get too excited, just 252 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,640 like most things in life, we get too excited and we go we ruin 253 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:33,440 it for ourselves. So you're saying that the shared dream concept in the movie, 254 00:19:33,799 --> 00:19:40,000 you said you haven't proven it yet. I definitely, and the field 255 00:19:40,079 --> 00:19:44,880 has not like empirically proven it just yet. Gotcha well? And also because 256 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,279 in the movie they make it seem like they have to rely on I can't 257 00:19:48,319 --> 00:19:52,519 remember what chemicals I hear them say if they named anything specifically, but I 258 00:19:52,559 --> 00:19:56,359 know there's a heavy reliance in the movie on chemicals to get you into this 259 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,759 heavily sedated place, but also into that sort of shared dreaming space like you 260 00:20:00,839 --> 00:20:06,839 kind of got to pick whose brain everyone kind of fell into, if you 261 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,559 will. Yeah, it looks like that was what that machine is for that 262 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:15,279 the one dreamer got plugged in and then the other ones. And I don't 263 00:20:15,559 --> 00:20:18,519 I don't think they named chemicals either. I think the chemist that they talked 264 00:20:18,559 --> 00:20:25,119 to I was noticing that specifically did not name chemicals, but talked about making 265 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:32,519 sure whatever he formulated did not affect the inner ear so that they could still 266 00:20:32,599 --> 00:20:36,079 use the kick. Maybe they did talk about chemicals and I missed it because 267 00:20:36,079 --> 00:20:40,519 I'm really no, they didn't. I paid attention today. Yeah, And 268 00:20:40,559 --> 00:20:44,000 I think Christopher Nolan did a good job in writing a sci fi movie, 269 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,920 which is that you don't give too much information. You've just enough information and 270 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,839 exposition so that it makes sense, but you don't get so caught up in 271 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:56,480 the reasoning behind it that everyone gets bored or starts picking it apart. Like 272 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,559 I think that's where Tenant got a little nutso is like it got too in 273 00:21:00,599 --> 00:21:04,440 the weeds with a lot of things. But I think Inception did a good 274 00:21:04,519 --> 00:21:07,279 job of being like, well, you need these chemicals. There's a chemist. 275 00:21:07,319 --> 00:21:12,279 Just trust that and let's keep the story moving. Yeah. The movie 276 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:19,000 that this actually was inspired by called Peprick. It was an animated Japanese animated 277 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:25,799 film that Nolan had actually made mention it'd seen before it was inspired to make. 278 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:30,079 Inceception, based off of has a similar concept of characters entering into others 279 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:38,039 dreams, and the protagonist, you know, she was working on this DreamCatcher 280 00:21:40,279 --> 00:21:44,920 device, but it was some you know, futuristic tech that you put on, 281 00:21:45,079 --> 00:21:48,119 you know, around your ear, and allowed a therapist to enter into 282 00:21:48,599 --> 00:21:53,839 a patient's dream or individuals to share dreams. So this is kind of the 283 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:59,160 unobtainium. This is the mcguffin that they can use to kind of explain this 284 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:04,119 component without any chemical explanation, because they knew that everyone would There'll be one 285 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,359 scientist in the audience calling out, Nope, that's wrong, that's mail. 286 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:15,720 Diracetyson would be on Twitter talking about why didn't make sense? Sure, those 287 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,079 guys are the worst. I watched National Treasure with some guy and he's like 288 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,039 telling us the whole movie about one shot in the movie that ruined it for 289 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,039 me. We're like, dude, we know this is nonsense, Like like 290 00:22:26,079 --> 00:22:30,400 it's Nicolas Cage being Indiana Jones in America. Okay, we know, and 291 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,319 I agree. I think it was important that we didn't get into the weeds 292 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,119 with chemicals because then the you know, geeks of the world like us right 293 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:44,519 now would be sitting here and doing this talking about it. But so we 294 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,079 kind of covered that. The premise of the movie is is a little bit, 295 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:52,400 a little bit wonky, but it's really fun to consider. I'll go 296 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,279 ahead, yeah, because it is a dream based movie, and like in 297 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:02,279 dreams, we suspend our disbelief. We allow ourselves to go with whatever the 298 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,119 narrative of the dream is telling us and be like I have to build a 299 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,400 go cart with my old landlord, okay, And so we get to follow 300 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,039 that dreamy state into the movie and we don't need to question it so much. 301 00:23:12,519 --> 00:23:17,920 Most dream narratives is just a tool to tell a story anyway. So 302 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:19,799 we get to follow this when we don't need to challenge it so much, 303 00:23:22,279 --> 00:23:26,000 right, which I think is an important part. And I'm going to just 304 00:23:26,079 --> 00:23:29,039 share my bias here and make some people really mad and other people really happy. 305 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,799 Is I think that's what makes Star Wars more fun and more successful than 306 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:38,640 Star Trek is. How dare you see already? Did it? You know? 307 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,920 I'm right? Once made billions of dollars, once made millions. There's 308 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:48,759 a reason, but that suspension of disbelief of well, let's just kind of 309 00:23:48,799 --> 00:23:52,640 skip over some of the deep science and go right into the What makes this 310 00:23:52,880 --> 00:24:00,519 interesting is a powerful tool to use with dreams and also when you're or doing 311 00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:06,920 anything like hypnosis that works with people's layers of consciousness, because at some point, 312 00:24:07,319 --> 00:24:11,640 relying on metaphor to let the brain fill in the gaps becomes important that 313 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:17,240 I'm not telling you all of the answers. I'm creating a scenario and letting 314 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,559 your brain be curious about it so that it fills in things by itself. 315 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:27,400 That was some of the things that that Dom said to Tom Hardy's character that 316 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:32,160 I thought was fascinating. Or maybe it was Tom, maybe that was him 317 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,720 and Elliott Page, I can't remember, but talking about not making things no, 318 00:24:36,799 --> 00:24:41,240 it's about the bridge. Don't use things that are too real, right, 319 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,599 don't use actual memories, but use things that are shades of this or 320 00:24:45,319 --> 00:24:48,880 inspired by, but not actually from it, because then it gets too real 321 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,160 and it can ground it to something. And I think that that's really important, 322 00:24:53,559 --> 00:24:56,599 and I imagine that's important with the dreamwork you guys do, is making 323 00:24:56,599 --> 00:25:00,599 sure too like, don't make it too real, because then the suspension of 324 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,960 disbelief that we need in dreams and to do any kind of subconscious work doesn't 325 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:10,000 happen. Definitely, what you were mentioning about allowing some kind of wiggle room 326 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:14,720 for the client to the patient to fill in the gaps. That's exactly how 327 00:25:14,839 --> 00:25:18,599 modern dream work utilizes it. It's more humanistic approach. Let them be their 328 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:25,240 experts. And I know for me, I am not. I don't do 329 00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:29,279 a lot of work with sleep. I'm not big into dream or sleep work. 330 00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:33,039 But I do talk to clients and create space for them to talk about 331 00:25:33,079 --> 00:25:36,839 their dreams and what the recurrent themes may be. And I don't do that 332 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,519 kind of work simply because I just don't know. I'd be operating outside of 333 00:25:40,559 --> 00:25:44,200 my realm of expertise. Is why I'm really glad we have Isaacon for this 334 00:25:44,319 --> 00:25:48,079 because it is his expertise, and this is great. Is what I do 335 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,400 understand is working with people's layers of consciousness, which this movie sort of borrowed 336 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:57,039 from then put into dreams. Even in hypnosis states, you can measure people's 337 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:02,160 brain waves, and you need to understand that when you get two different layers 338 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:03,480 of brainwave. And I'm going to have to pull up a chart because this 339 00:26:03,519 --> 00:26:07,440 is a little also beyond the training we get as counselors. But when people 340 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,880 are in gamma waves, their brain waves are operating, I'm making finger signs 341 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,359 like you guys can see what I'm doing The brainwaves are really active visual me 342 00:26:15,839 --> 00:26:21,680 if people on Patreon maybe, but the gamma waves are when we're in problem 343 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,720 solving. The brain waves are operating in a high frequency pattern when we're awake 344 00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:33,720 with an active mind. That's beta waves when we're relaxed and reflective. Alpha. 345 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,839 Theta is drowsiness and deltas when you get dreams and sleeping, and hypnosis 346 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:45,599 wants to increase theta waves and delta waves to try to engage people at a 347 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:52,720 lower level of consciousness where they're more suggestive and reflective. That's something that's really 348 00:26:52,799 --> 00:26:57,160 important that you can get the body in a measurable way, an approvable way 349 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:03,960 to be an a state where the mind is more willing and to be flexible 350 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,839 and calm because the body is safe. The body is grounded in safety, 351 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,799 The body is grounded in calmness, and by creating that environment drawing attention to 352 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:18,680 it, the mind can be more flexible and creative and allow for problem solving 353 00:27:18,079 --> 00:27:22,599 that can't exist when it's grounded to a real problem. When you're trying to 354 00:27:22,599 --> 00:27:26,440 solve something, if there was a tiger in your house, you are not 355 00:27:26,559 --> 00:27:32,359 going to be so interested or even not even possible for you to wonder, 356 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,680 is it possible to go into a shared dream within a dream within a dream 357 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,200 within a dream, And what would it be like if I went into my 358 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,440 friend's dream and got into their head. Would we be able to solve world 359 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,359 puzzles together? No, you're going to be worried about I'm a tiger in 360 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,160 your house about to eat you, because your brain's going to be like danger, 361 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:55,559 danger, danger, danger. And when you do any kind of work 362 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,880 with a client who has anxiety or has a history of trauma, which through 363 00:28:00,599 --> 00:28:03,160 my lens, everyone has trauma, but not everyone has PTSD. We've all 364 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:08,480 had small to traumas, things that disturb us. You have to get the 365 00:28:08,559 --> 00:28:12,759 bodied back to a state where it can be calm again, so that you 366 00:28:12,839 --> 00:28:18,759 can help someone reach a state of consciousness where they're able, not willing, 367 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:27,200 physically able to be suggestible to interpret the information through a different lens. If 368 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:33,519 you're activating the part of them that was in danger with the memory, their 369 00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:40,599 body is in danger. And the things I reject about doing cognitive their cognitive 370 00:28:40,599 --> 00:28:45,119 behavioral therapy with trauma patients directly is that it relies on this idea well help 371 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:51,640 them tell them to think about it differently and they'll be fine. So I 372 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:59,200 actually utilize cognitive behavioral therapy and I approach the trauma work with more of a 373 00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:07,440 may maybe a polyvagal neural approach that actually can coincide with yours, in essence 374 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:14,480 allowing them to activate the cognitions that are connected not to those fears, the 375 00:29:14,519 --> 00:29:21,920 emotions and memories. Two of the main components of dreams. The pyramidal cells 376 00:29:22,279 --> 00:29:25,559 the hippocampus are in charge of kind of person, place and context, and 377 00:29:25,599 --> 00:29:30,640 we have the amygdala activated and engaging with memory consolidation there. So when we 378 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:37,160 have a traumatic experience capital or lowercase, those neurons between the fear and the 379 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,839 memory are fused very strong, they're very fine tuned, and unfortunately that's where 380 00:29:41,839 --> 00:29:45,440 we get our flashbacks. That's why we have are reoccurring dreams and nightmares of 381 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,359 the event. So the approach that I'll use, at least initially, is 382 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:55,519 to cultivate their ability to connect to memories of safety, to get them to 383 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,960 intentionally go to that memory, to feel it somatically, to kind of remember 384 00:30:00,119 --> 00:30:03,480 or all of the site, sounds, touch, tastes, etc. So 385 00:30:03,519 --> 00:30:07,519 that they can feel safe again and cultivate that from the past, the recent, 386 00:30:07,559 --> 00:30:11,839 past, present, the future, so they're eventually able to essentially grow 387 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,119 their brain in this new direction that they'd like to do, and we might 388 00:30:15,279 --> 00:30:22,279 see similar changes happening in the dream space. There are some dream based interventions 389 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:29,599 to change or to add in novel experiences to the dreamed experience of those neurons 390 00:30:29,599 --> 00:30:33,720 firing. And when we can bring in the more bizarre elements of dreaming, 391 00:30:33,799 --> 00:30:41,279 it gets to move away from the traumatic reproduction of that traumatic event. So 392 00:30:41,519 --> 00:30:45,079 because we can get dreams to be more bizarre and getting more elements, we 393 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:51,119 get too broaden and build. That's the parasympathetic nervous system as opposed to that 394 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,480 fight or flight or freeze response we get when we are re or traumatized. 395 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,839 And I love that you mentioned the blending of the techniques because it's not the 396 00:31:00,519 --> 00:31:03,519 It's not that CBT is an invalid approach. CBT is validated over and over 397 00:31:03,559 --> 00:31:07,799 again. It works. But where it doesn't work, where it falls short, 398 00:31:08,119 --> 00:31:14,319 is when the part of the brain that can't activate and doesn't have those 399 00:31:14,359 --> 00:31:18,799 resources. Right when that sympathetic nervous state is our nervous system is active, 400 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:26,480 people aren't calm enough to engage the things they've been taught, and the memory 401 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:32,720 they're activating that you're saying is physically stored in their neurons does not have those 402 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:37,920 resources at that time, and therefore that information is irrelevant until they're calm again. 403 00:31:38,599 --> 00:31:45,799 And that's what I think is so important that people miss. I think 404 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,960 I was ten years into my career before I finally took trainings that concratised that 405 00:31:51,039 --> 00:31:56,160 for me, and I'm EMDR certified. So that's where you know, MDR 406 00:31:56,279 --> 00:31:59,839 pulls heavily from poly Bagel's. They don't even know shy away from that. 407 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:06,200 They incorporate that idea that we need to keep in mind. Like I said 408 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,880 earlier, that the brain and the body are all wired into each other, 409 00:32:09,319 --> 00:32:15,759 and how memories are stored matters, where they're stored matters. We can't just 410 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,480 tell someone to change the way that they're thinking when their body is telling them 411 00:32:19,519 --> 00:32:22,559 they're in danger. Doesn't Are you trying to say that the body keeps the 412 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:29,400 score or something? I might be saying that the body keeps the score. 413 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,480 God, I wonder too, I have. I've just been listening, and 414 00:32:35,039 --> 00:32:37,799 I wonder and just listening to what you guys are sharing, and what I 415 00:32:37,839 --> 00:32:40,000 know about clients I see who have trauma and then it comes out in their 416 00:32:40,079 --> 00:32:44,799 dreams or even with myself because I have anxiety, and how my anxiety will 417 00:32:44,799 --> 00:32:50,480 so stereotypically manifest in my dreams. And so my only thought about this, 418 00:32:50,559 --> 00:32:52,279 and this is what I would say if I was Christopher Nolan, just to 419 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,359 I don't know, be lazy is well, one of the chemicals that they 420 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,039 get injected with must take care of this part of it. But I don't 421 00:33:00,119 --> 00:33:06,160 know how all of these people in this movie, you know, aren't when 422 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,359 they're in each other's subconscious, within each other's dream state, how they're not. 423 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,720 They're so activated. Obviously they're fighting for their lives, like in these 424 00:33:14,799 --> 00:33:19,880 dreams within dreams. That's it, doesn't It does seem kind of outlandish that 425 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:27,960 there wouldn't be more going on within their dream states besides just dom and mal 426 00:33:28,279 --> 00:33:32,960 right and these subconscious sort of like armies or fighters that are coming towards them, 427 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,640 Like you would think that there would be more manifestations of their I guess 428 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:42,400 neurosis if you want to call it that, or they're undealt with feelings, 429 00:33:42,519 --> 00:33:45,000 or even just you would think in one of the dreams. In the dreams, 430 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:51,319 there'd be manifestations of the anxiety they're having in the upper dream, like 431 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,119 in the what I would call the business hotel dream, that there wouldn't be 432 00:33:55,119 --> 00:34:00,480 stuff coming up in the snow dream because of that. And my assumption would 433 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,119 be if I was christophal and I would just say, what one of those 434 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,920 chemicals shooting into their brains is, I don't know, lexapro or something, 435 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,039 and it's or out of van or something. That's like keeping their anxiety low 436 00:34:09,119 --> 00:34:15,119 so they can be so centered and grounded while their body and brain is doing 437 00:34:15,119 --> 00:34:21,039 a million other things that are so stressful simultaneously. Like it makes me curious 438 00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:24,719 if these henchmen are heist. You know, people in this movie have to 439 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:32,800 do their own like meditative, grounding process based work between heist just so that 440 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,480 heis don't go awry, like the elements that they feel like they have to 441 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:42,599 you have to control in this space that to me almost feels like the most 442 00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:47,280 unrealistic part of this movie is how that could things not be like the most 443 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:52,079 that something goes awry if I would even say that, and they could they 444 00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:57,079 catch it right away? Is in the business hotel dream layer of the dream, 445 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,960 Robert's actual godfather shows up that they were going to imitate, and then 446 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,239 they kind of use that to their advantage. But you think there would be 447 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,840 more stuff going on like that that they wouldn't be able to predict for. 448 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,199 And I'm assuming I'm just going to give it up to this, this bunch 449 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:15,199 of disbelief, because this is obviously reality, an alternate reality where this is 450 00:35:15,199 --> 00:35:19,800 so well known that businessmen like Robert are being trained on how to deal with 451 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,199 it, Like there's already security businesses to deal with these things, and probably 452 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:28,639 mercenaries and all that stuff too. But I think that's the part that, 453 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:34,599 Yeah, I find really interesting that only Dom, only Dom is the one 454 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:43,079 having trouble keeping control over a part of his psyche that's manifesting and sabotaging these 455 00:35:43,159 --> 00:35:47,840 dream states. I agree. I love your framing of that question because I 456 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:54,880 think that ties into what Isaac was talking about earlier about how you can't stay 457 00:35:54,880 --> 00:36:00,440 in a dream state and can't lose a dream once your journaline start firing, 458 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:06,000 right, and that you're just not gonna stay in a sleep state. It's 459 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,800 not gonna happen because your body's gonna wake you up. At some point, 460 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:15,199 your body's gonna say you're in danger, wake up and design that way right. 461 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:20,400 It's almost like if there was a tiger, your body gonna wake you 462 00:36:20,519 --> 00:36:24,440 up. Yeah, we have a problem here, But I think it's more 463 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:30,360 personal, right that that would be a That's a really important question because there 464 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:35,679 is no way all of these characters have not had lives, and you know 465 00:36:35,679 --> 00:36:37,320 it's fright to say mothers right, like, and I would also say you 466 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:42,840 don't get into that line of business crime without problem. I would assume a 467 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:47,719 significant background of stuff going on in your life that you would be I don't 468 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:52,079 know. It makes me curious if there's like a psych work up that you 469 00:36:52,159 --> 00:36:55,400 have to clear to be part of these teams of like to do these highs, 470 00:36:55,639 --> 00:37:00,360 which I guess they don't because they recruit Elliott Page's character just because that 471 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:07,480 character is the brightest kid in glass. Unless unless all of these characters are 472 00:37:07,559 --> 00:37:13,480 elements from the level above all of that, we don't get to see whether 473 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:19,079 they're not that top falls at the end where Don was dreaming all of these 474 00:37:19,119 --> 00:37:23,440 scenes, whether there's all one big metaphor of his you know, very extreme 475 00:37:23,519 --> 00:37:30,000 dream that he had after a really powerful therapy session. Well, this is 476 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,440 going to lead into a whole other conversation. We're going to take a break 477 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,920 here and we'll be right back, all right, so you can we'll definitely 478 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:43,360 keep weaving in like dreaming consciousness fact for suspiction into this. But I think 479 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,440 you're bringing up the kind of the next portion of this, which is that 480 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:52,039 there is the argument that this whole movie is a dream, perhaps that Dom 481 00:37:52,079 --> 00:37:58,800 is happening right, and and I it makes sense to me because he is 482 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,840 the central figure, because it's only his manifestation that is fucking shit up right. 483 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:09,519 And also a note that I wrote is how perfect that he's given the 484 00:38:09,599 --> 00:38:16,559 opportunity to reframe inception, to reframe the awful thing he did to his wife, 485 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:22,079 to reframe it in a positive way where he not only is like the 486 00:38:22,119 --> 00:38:27,840 hero and doing something exceptional, but he is going to be cleared of all 487 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,800 wrongdoing. He's going to see his children again, He's going to be safe. 488 00:38:31,119 --> 00:38:35,679 I think it's what you've Ben would have called recent episodes a corrective experience. 489 00:38:36,079 --> 00:38:39,239 He gets to now use something he did that had led to a horrible, 490 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:44,559 horrific, traumatic outcome that he's been sitting with all that guilt and shame 491 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,519 and now he's this perfect opportunity to use it in a way that will solve 492 00:38:49,559 --> 00:38:52,480 everything. So I did touch on that and I was like, oh, 493 00:38:52,639 --> 00:38:55,360 that does feel like I mean, I could just be like the narrative of 494 00:38:55,400 --> 00:39:00,280 the story, right, the hero's story, And it feels like a perfect 495 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:07,320 sort of like reframing experience to reconceptualize something like a piece of huge guilt that 496 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,679 you're holding inside of you. Yeah, I mean and exactly. And I 497 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,559 think that's a huge point to make that. There's so many things that open 498 00:39:15,679 --> 00:39:20,760 up that question, right, it is of all these characters, like taking 499 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:25,679 a look at Tom Hardy's character Eames, right, that dude is operating at 500 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:35,320 legit special forces level like single man incursion tactics, and you don't learn that 501 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:42,320 stuff without some serious bad coming your way. You know, like you're gonna 502 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,559 have to put yourself through really really difficult training and do really difficult things that 503 00:39:45,599 --> 00:39:51,480 will have consequences on you. Not saying you know that you these people are 504 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,199 bad people, but saying that they train in hard ways for hard realities that 505 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:58,920 most of us can sleep through the night and pretend don't exist. Because there 506 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:04,119 are people who do them and to do those kinds of things. The argument 507 00:40:04,199 --> 00:40:09,119 that his subconscious would have its own version of Malls showing up to haunt him. 508 00:40:09,159 --> 00:40:14,280 I've done way too much work with people that have killed people to believe 509 00:40:14,639 --> 00:40:21,079 for one ounce of a second would not be there so that it's only Doms 510 00:40:21,679 --> 00:40:24,719 memories that get corrected, that it's only Doms memories that show up and interfere. 511 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:31,079 I think the argument exists that the top never would fall, well, 512 00:40:31,119 --> 00:40:37,000 that this will similarly, oh, go ahead. Similarly speaking, I work 513 00:40:37,079 --> 00:40:43,920 with a lot of vets and service members and their PTSD also comes with a 514 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,800 large amount of nightmares and for however much training that they do, again, 515 00:40:47,079 --> 00:40:52,679 there's not a lot in the realm of mental fortitude and health and security, 516 00:40:52,800 --> 00:41:00,000 especially against these traumatic experiences. Whether they've committed that anything, whether they've witness 517 00:41:00,199 --> 00:41:02,239 anything, we even just heard about anything. Trauma can come at you, 518 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:08,000 you know, even by word of mouth, and they're so severely affected by 519 00:41:08,039 --> 00:41:14,039 it. So once again we have to suspend disbelief that such individuals would not 520 00:41:14,119 --> 00:41:19,960 be haunted by their actions in the past, if they are actually real people 521 00:41:20,039 --> 00:41:25,480 and not just conglomerations of Dom's mind right which you know, the operating theory 522 00:41:25,559 --> 00:41:30,280 seems to be all of us kind of are on that team. It's just 523 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,119 fun to think that it's all well, I was kind of more watching this 524 00:41:34,199 --> 00:41:37,239 and me and Hannah watched it tous who were talking about this, because Hannah, 525 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,639 you kept noting every time, well, he spend the top this time, 526 00:41:39,679 --> 00:41:45,159 and the top did fall, so you kept like clocking. But I 527 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:51,199 do think where this movie feels really interesting to me psychologically is if you do, 528 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,079 which is regardless of it's his dream the whole time or whatever, what 529 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:59,199 is true in the movie is that Mall is him right. It's a manifestation 530 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,679 of him talking at him right, coming at him, if you will, 531 00:42:02,159 --> 00:42:07,639 and if you really hold that in your mind, the whole movie psychologically for 532 00:42:07,679 --> 00:42:10,519 me is a therapist that all lined up, like the fact that during one 533 00:42:10,559 --> 00:42:14,760 of their first interactions in the movie, it might have been where they're Insito's 534 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,760 mind at the beginning and she shows up, he says, She says to 535 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:22,440 him, do the children miss me? Which is such a brutal question, 536 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:27,199 and he says, oh God, I can't imagine. And that to me 537 00:42:28,119 --> 00:42:30,960 now that I know the whole story, because they've seen it a few times, 538 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:35,840 I'm like, woof, that does feel like something a client you're subconscious 539 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,159 would haunt on you, like those would be the kind of questions that you 540 00:42:38,159 --> 00:42:45,519 would torture yourself about. And this idea of mal Mail walking around as this 541 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:53,480 punishing self sabotaging, toxic, hateful creature in his life does make a lot 542 00:42:53,519 --> 00:42:58,119 of sense to me as a therapist who has worked with so many people who 543 00:42:58,159 --> 00:43:01,280 have gone through something where they feel like not only a trauma, but a 544 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,880 trauma that feels like it was my fault. Because I think that's the important 545 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,559 things. We've talked about a lot of trauma on the show lately, a 546 00:43:08,599 --> 00:43:14,360 lot of trauma through grief and loss and bereavement, and I think what's important 547 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,159 to keep in mind that this one is this what's different for this character is 548 00:43:17,199 --> 00:43:22,519 that he believes that he is the one who did this to her, that 549 00:43:22,679 --> 00:43:30,239 he caused her death. It's interesting that you bring up specifically bereavement because that 550 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:36,800 was actually my dissertation topic for grad school. I did a dissertation on the 551 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:43,119 cultural differences in bereavement dreams, and so I looked at how do different groups 552 00:43:43,159 --> 00:43:46,840 of individuals dream of the deceased? Does this change by ethnicity, religion, 553 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:52,760 or gender, and the more conclusive evidence was that it's mainly just by gender 554 00:43:54,199 --> 00:43:59,960 the most. Most women tend to dream of the deceased either being high, 555 00:44:00,079 --> 00:44:02,920 being healthy and radiant, kind of doing well, or being separated and kind 556 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:07,840 of separating or kind of saying goodbye, things like that. As in waking 557 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:15,159 life, the grief process can be very socially straining for most women, and 558 00:44:15,199 --> 00:44:17,960 they either feel the loss is very strong or they need a lot of social 559 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:24,360 connection. Whereas men, most men tend to dream of the deceased essentially doing 560 00:44:25,119 --> 00:44:29,360 kind of the mundane things that they always used to do together. So if 561 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,599 they used to kind of sit and chat at the breakfast table, that's what 562 00:44:31,639 --> 00:44:35,960 they'll probably see them doing. If they used to go on walks, and 563 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,039 they'll probably continue to go on walks with them. So if that's true, 564 00:44:39,679 --> 00:44:47,599 that means that maybe Dom's either relationship with Mal either has always been or he's 565 00:44:47,679 --> 00:44:54,480 at least perceiving it as reprimanding, unless it is so traumatic, so excessive 566 00:44:54,599 --> 00:45:00,920 that it is shifting and changing, and this is that traumatic elements that his 567 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:05,599 brain is showing him can little comb Yeah, it's like this whole, this 568 00:45:05,639 --> 00:45:13,639 whole movie creates a lot of metaphora parts or allegory perhaps, but looking at 569 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:20,519 how all of these could be parts of Dom and that Maul represents that chamber 570 00:45:20,599 --> 00:45:24,519 because she never says one single positive thing to him. No, not ever. 571 00:45:24,639 --> 00:45:30,519 And and Arthur, the character of Arthur, he does say to Ariane 572 00:45:30,519 --> 00:45:32,840 like Mao was lovely in real life. So I think that is the clue 573 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:37,440 to us as the audience that this version of Mau is not the version of 574 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:42,360 Mao that existed in the real world, or at least not until maybe they 575 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:46,800 fell into limbo together and she came back with him, right. And some 576 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:51,480 of the work that I don't even wrote about this in my and a Stranger 577 00:45:51,519 --> 00:45:58,440 Things psychology book, I wrote a chapter in with understanding the role of shame 578 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:05,679 in recovery from trauma and grief in bereavement even is that when people believe that 579 00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:14,920 they contributed, they have responsibility or the loss, healing becomes blocked because shame 580 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:21,880 deactivates the arousal state that's needed to emote enough to grief. And we see 581 00:46:22,119 --> 00:46:30,119 Mall every time there is some completion of this task that domas created for himself, 582 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:35,559 Mall shows up and blocks it and I see that with clients and session 583 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,400 over and over again, where they get so close to reaching that point they 584 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:43,960 can release, they can have that cathartic release of emotion that they need in 585 00:46:44,039 --> 00:46:47,280 order to grieve that they go, no, but it's my fault. Boom, 586 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:51,280 but I did it. There's something I did something about it my fault, 587 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:55,039 or I can't recover. Bam, the shame shuts it right down, 588 00:46:55,079 --> 00:47:00,519 and the healing loop starts all over again. Yeah, I mean, Arianna 589 00:47:00,599 --> 00:47:04,599 says it. Arianne says it towards the end of the movie. She says, 590 00:47:04,599 --> 00:47:07,880 You're gonna have to forgive yourself, you know, because that character is 591 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,559 a good job of kind of getting right to it. I mean, it'd 592 00:47:10,599 --> 00:47:15,039 also be interested in your guys's thoughts about the levels of the dreams when he's 593 00:47:15,079 --> 00:47:20,039 that elevator kind of metaphor the use in the movie where Ariana goes through them. 594 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,360 But that character quickly picks up on the fact that, like, your 595 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,599 shame is like eating you up, and not only is it eating you up, 596 00:47:27,639 --> 00:47:30,119 it's going to eat all of us up with you, because we are 597 00:47:30,159 --> 00:47:34,679 now part of your shame spiral. And and I think what you're saying, 598 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,400 Benice so true. And when I work with clients and the shame, it 599 00:47:38,519 --> 00:47:43,400 keeps blocking us time and time again. You Know, the question I stimes 600 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:50,840 ask them is why does it feel so important to keep punishing yourself? Like, 601 00:47:51,199 --> 00:47:52,760 like, what do you think you're genuinely gonna this is a real I 602 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:57,159 mean I have to ask myself this question sometimes too, which is like what 603 00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:01,239 function does it continue to serve? Like why does it feel so necessary to 604 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,000 hold on like this? What do I feel like I'm gonna lose if I 605 00:48:05,199 --> 00:48:08,679 actually forgive myself? What's the worry on the other side of forgiving myself that 606 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:13,239 I'm gonna You're gonna do something or You're gonna say something, You're gonna be 607 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:17,159 someone if you don't keep you know, punishing yourself. And I have to 608 00:48:17,199 --> 00:48:27,159 always acknowledge that we live in a culture that also very much not rewards shame, 609 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,559 but it has this belief that shame has a lot of mirror right like 610 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,199 discipline and no pain, no gain, Like we do live in a culture 611 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,679 that does really I mean you could probably I don't blame it on puritanical culture. 612 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:44,000 This idea that shame keeps ups in line, shame keeps us good boys 613 00:48:44,039 --> 00:48:46,920 and girls, and so what I do also have to acknowledge sometimes. What 614 00:48:47,039 --> 00:48:52,440 I have to acknowledge sometimes with clients is is there a real fear or worry 615 00:48:52,519 --> 00:49:00,239 or anxiety that if I don't keep punishing myself that I'm gonna start doing bad 616 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:01,719 things. I mean, it's but it's that like simplistic kind of the thought 617 00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,199 process. I don't even know if they could name what the bad things are 618 00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:10,119 if you really got there. Not always. Sometimes I work with and it's 619 00:49:10,159 --> 00:49:14,480 more just like this hovering hypothetical for some people of like, well, I'm 620 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,599 a bad person, which is what shame tells us, and so if I 621 00:49:17,679 --> 00:49:22,000 let go then or if I forgive myself, then I'm opening up a door 622 00:49:22,159 --> 00:49:27,960 because I don't trust myself that I'm gonna just be a good like I'm gonna 623 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,280 be a moral, ethical person, which is also the big not to get 624 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,960 on a soapbox. But I think the big argument that you see with people 625 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,679 when people talk about do we need a religion or not to stay in line, 626 00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:39,760 I think it also people who think that you don't need religion will say 627 00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:44,000 the same thing, which is that do not think that you can still make 628 00:49:44,039 --> 00:49:50,400 ethical, moral decisions without this worry that you're going to get punished by something 629 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,559 bigger than us if you don't behave. And it goes back to this idea, 630 00:49:53,639 --> 00:50:00,320 can you like trust yourself, forgive yourself after a horrible situation in which 631 00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:05,400 maybe you do have some fault in it, maybe not, maybe you do, 632 00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:08,000 you know, and then how do we move forward to that? And 633 00:50:08,599 --> 00:50:14,800 there's there's an approach that combines this part's work that we're talking about here. 634 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:21,320 Part of it could be pun intended, part of it could be engaging with 635 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:27,000 your different dream characters as different parts of you. It's called get Stalt dream 636 00:50:27,039 --> 00:50:31,639 psychology, kind of acknowledging that this is all you're You're projecting these different characters 637 00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:37,360 into your dream uh you know there your mirror neurons that normally are receptive in 638 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,760 waking life are projective in the dreaming world. So you project elements of you 639 00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:44,760 into your dream characters. You can interact with them, ask them questions, 640 00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:49,559 engage with them just in my in my experience, asking them what's it like 641 00:50:49,639 --> 00:50:51,679 to be my dream character? And then they just kind of give up, 642 00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,239 the give up the game and they I don't know, but in waking life. 643 00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:59,880 In addition, we can also do internal family systems. There, you're 644 00:51:00,199 --> 00:51:04,039 an approach where we get if shamey's coming up so much, and you know 645 00:51:04,079 --> 00:51:07,320 it served us as a child, It kept us kind of okay, Well, 646 00:51:07,519 --> 00:51:09,960 I don't want the group to dislike me, so you know, feel 647 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:14,760 shame when I say something awkward or wear the wrong socks, and so it 648 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:19,480 keeps us in line. Sure, but most things can be helpful to a 649 00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:24,440 degree, and when they become unnecessary or maladaptive, we need to analyze them. 650 00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:28,000 So I'll work with a patient and ask them, all right, can 651 00:51:28,039 --> 00:51:31,840 you connect with your shame? What service does it provide for the whole and 652 00:51:32,599 --> 00:51:37,719 can we maybe even ask that part what it would rather do or if it 653 00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:42,360 let you take over from there, I let you kind of keep the system 654 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,280 in order. And some amazing work happens when the patient finally acknowledges you know 655 00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:51,559 what, Yeah, I was feeling ashamed. It kept me from doing the 656 00:51:51,639 --> 00:51:54,920 bad thing again. But now I think I know not to do the bad 657 00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:59,679 thing again, and I can start to move forward from that. And then 658 00:51:59,679 --> 00:52:04,679 they get to girl again. So Hannah, I'm gonna tap you. I'm 659 00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:08,199 gonna do that. The tag in here because Isaac said the magic word, 660 00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:13,840 right, like we probably would pretty much almost have a bingo for those listening. 661 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,400 We've we've talked about Batman, We've talked about trauma, we've talked about 662 00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:22,880 grief, and we've talked about Star Wars. One of the other themes that 663 00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:28,960 we've talked about, because definitely both Hannah and I talked about parts a lot, 664 00:52:30,199 --> 00:52:34,679 is how might Dom have manifested Maul and some of these other characters as 665 00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,000 parts. Do you think, Hannah, because I know this is definitely an 666 00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,679 area of interest to yours, is dealing with parts work. Yeah. Absolutely. 667 00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:46,039 How I feel like I feel like, as I'm listening to all of 668 00:52:46,119 --> 00:52:52,760 you talk about it being the whole deal is this is his dream and this 669 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:58,440 is his experience. That makes a lot more sense to me in terms of 670 00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:01,280 in terms of just how I think about the movie in general. So I 671 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:09,519 really feel like his clearly his shame part is mal I feel like his. 672 00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:15,519 I feel like his. I don't. I don't even know if this based 673 00:53:15,519 --> 00:53:17,599 on all the different things you all were talking about, I don't even know 674 00:53:17,639 --> 00:53:24,039 if this works. But his subconscious being Aaron Adney or however the fuck you 675 00:53:24,079 --> 00:53:32,440 say her name or their name in the movie the Greek or Greek listeners Hannah. 676 00:53:32,679 --> 00:53:37,320 Either way that that is kind of the part that's like, are you 677 00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:40,679 sure about this? Like is this really like this? It's also the part 678 00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:45,280 that is showing him very clearly No, this is what the problem is. 679 00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:51,320 You need to forgive yourself. You need to walk away from the situation because 680 00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,880 this is dangerous. Like you continuing to engage with the shame part of yourself 681 00:53:55,760 --> 00:54:00,480 is not You're not growing from this. Nothing is changing, which is kind 682 00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:02,559 of what all of you were saying. So I really feel like the shame 683 00:54:02,639 --> 00:54:12,360 part is mal I feel like his maybe introspection part is is Elliott Page's character. 684 00:54:13,679 --> 00:54:20,800 I feel like, I don't know if I feel like I can identify 685 00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:25,920 any other parts. I mean, it certainly could be Tom Hardy, could 686 00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:31,800 be his fight part number one, that could be a part of that experience 687 00:54:34,639 --> 00:54:39,280 Mogadishu to find him, you know, like, yeah, that's his operator 688 00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:45,559 for sure. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, and so and I feel like 689 00:54:46,679 --> 00:54:51,840 and I feel like in some ways then Joseph Gordon Levitt's character, I feel 690 00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,679 like I don't know anybody's name Arthur early actors Arthur. I feel like, 691 00:54:55,840 --> 00:55:01,840 yeah, I feel like Arthur his part is kind of he might be the 692 00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:10,440 protector, but a kind of like a protector that's given up and one way 693 00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:14,840 or another, like he seems to be able to push to come to him 694 00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,360 and say are you sure that? Are you sure you have a handle on 695 00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:21,199 this? Are you sure that you're able to do this? Are you sure 696 00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:24,639 that you're able to do you have this under control? Kind of checks in 697 00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:28,360 with him. So yeah, So I don't know what part I think that 698 00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,199 Joseph Gordon Levitt is. Maybe well, I want to jump off of that 699 00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:36,679 in what's interesting now that we're kind of thinking of it, this hypothetical is 700 00:55:37,679 --> 00:55:42,360 Arthur. Joseph Gordon Levitt's character seems to be very, very type. I 701 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:46,119 guess I would to like that very and he makes a big mistake that makes 702 00:55:46,119 --> 00:55:52,400 the whole mission really in danger. Right, So it also I guess you 703 00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:57,280 could kind of argue, like is this movie a representation of dom kind of 704 00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,440 finally saying like it's not working anymore, Like the way that I've been trying 705 00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:05,840 to do it is not working anymore. I can't plan for everything, I 706 00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:10,800 can't be ahead of everything. You know, that rigidity that we all can 707 00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:15,440 fall into when we're trying to pretend like we can have a lot of control 708 00:56:16,159 --> 00:56:21,480 over the world around us. And so that does seem to be a moment 709 00:56:21,519 --> 00:56:25,880 in the movie where Arthur's character is really out of character that it's really shocking, 710 00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,840 and of course Dom reacts and kind he screams in his face, and 711 00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:35,639 he's also like where we can't change though, like we still have to push 712 00:56:35,639 --> 00:56:38,280 forward, push forward, push forward. Which that's also something I think that's 713 00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:44,920 real, really realistic, right, is that until shit gets really, really, 714 00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:50,079 really bad, we can struggle to swerve, we can get very locked 715 00:56:50,079 --> 00:56:52,519 in till no, we have to complete the mission. We gotta do the 716 00:56:52,559 --> 00:56:54,400 way we've always done it. We can't move, we can't move, even 717 00:56:54,440 --> 00:57:00,239 though we are in like dire straits, we'll fall into limbo, even though 718 00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:04,119 I've pissed off everybody on the team. Because I think something Dom also does 719 00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:08,159 is keep a lot of secrets, keeps a lot of secrets. He's very 720 00:57:08,159 --> 00:57:12,199 secretive with his team. He does not tell them things if he doesn't want 721 00:57:12,199 --> 00:57:15,000 them to know. It's very like rules for THEE but not for me, 722 00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:17,760 which they even name out right in the movie, like you'll know if they 723 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:22,719 say I think like they say verbatim, you'll notice that Dom tells you to 724 00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:24,000 do a lot of things, not to do a lot of things that he'll 725 00:57:24,039 --> 00:57:31,440 then then do. Yeah, And I think that says a lot about the 726 00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:36,679 theory that we're in Dom's head the whole movie, because we keep secrets from 727 00:57:36,719 --> 00:57:42,960 ourselves. Because I think how also this movie resolves is him, I guess, 728 00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:45,920 reconcile if we're thinking about like parts, like he reconciles with that Elliott 729 00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:52,719 Page part of you know, kind of finally saying out loud to someone what 730 00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:57,519 he did the part that he played. Because my because the feeling that I 731 00:57:57,519 --> 00:58:00,119 got, unless I really missed something, which I wouldn't be shocked, is 732 00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:07,280 that he's never really told anybody anybody maybe Arthur, but I feel like no 733 00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:13,599 one that he put an idea in his wife's mind that led to her I 734 00:58:13,599 --> 00:58:17,559 guess you could argue psychosis that led to her suicide, right if you wanted 735 00:58:17,559 --> 00:58:22,800 to want to think of it in those terms. And it's in the end 736 00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:27,320 of the movie how he can finally move on and like resolve things, is 737 00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,440 he finally admits that out loud, kind of like the big exhale of the 738 00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:37,159 movie. This is what I did, and he doesn't nothing. I'm going 739 00:58:37,239 --> 00:58:39,079 to say it like this, but nothing bad happens. Like he says the 740 00:58:39,119 --> 00:58:46,519 big horrible thing out loud and the world doesn't explode. You know, I 741 00:58:46,599 --> 00:58:52,760 know, right right when you admit to these things that you've held in yourself 742 00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,559 for so long and you think are so terribly bad, that your shame system 743 00:58:55,559 --> 00:59:00,679 has kind of wrapped up and hold itself away and made you think you'd have 744 00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:02,960 to think this way. Whether it's in zion, whether it's depression, whether 745 00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:07,760 it's trauma. But if we can finally get to just check in with somebody 746 00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:09,079 and say, hey, listen, my brain's been telling me this thang a 747 00:59:09,119 --> 00:59:13,760 whole bunch. I'm just gonna say it out loud, and the other person 748 00:59:14,119 --> 00:59:19,000 is a you know, qualified therapist of some sort can tell you, yeah, 749 00:59:19,119 --> 00:59:22,599 it do be that way it sounds, doesn't it? Yeah, it 750 00:59:22,599 --> 00:59:24,840 does. Then you get to move on, right, But we don't like 751 00:59:25,079 --> 00:59:30,320 immediately send you to an execution chamber of like, ooh, you said that 752 00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:34,960 thing you gotta checket to fit for you. I mean, any tips for 753 00:59:35,079 --> 00:59:39,760 any therapiace and training out there listening when your client tells you something really hardcore 754 00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:46,480 like that. You have to practice making your face very stoic and calm and 755 00:59:46,599 --> 00:59:52,519 compassionate. Do not make a goofy big face are Yike's face, which is 756 00:59:52,519 --> 00:59:59,840 what Isaac just kind of made. Leonardo DiCaprio just kind of squint face. 757 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:04,679 Am really looking hard? Right? Yeah? Especially that. So there's something 758 01:00:04,719 --> 01:00:07,599 I wanted to follow up on this because Brittany, you're talking about great stuff, 759 01:00:07,599 --> 01:00:09,920 and Isaac and he know you guys have both talked about great stuff. 760 01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:14,559 So I'm going to do the thing that I do sometimes kind of conquertize this 761 01:00:14,599 --> 01:00:20,119 back into some of the theoretical language to help tie it in. Is Isaac, 762 01:00:20,159 --> 01:00:25,920 you brought up IFS, which is internal family systems, and I don't 763 01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:30,760 use his language a lot, but I'm going to today because it's simpler. 764 01:00:30,159 --> 01:00:34,960 I like structural dissociation. I like Genina Fisher's way of talking about things a 765 01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:37,760 little bit more because it's a little more expansive. But the way that Dick 766 01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:43,400 Schwartz did it, who's the creator of Internal family Systems, the way he 767 01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:47,320 wrote these things was a simpler, direct language. And his focus is getting 768 01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:52,599 the self part back online. That's his focus. Some other people focus on 769 01:00:52,719 --> 01:00:58,199 some different stuff in addition to that and build upon that work. But the 770 01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:01,199 language that he uses in the base levels, right, is that within our 771 01:01:01,239 --> 01:01:07,239 internal family system, we have managers, firefighters, and exiles. So when 772 01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:13,159 Hannah and Brittany are kind of like naming out these parts and Isaac using the 773 01:01:13,239 --> 01:01:16,079 language and explaining this too, you guys have to I'm hoping that our audience 774 01:01:16,119 --> 01:01:22,039 right now is starting to see these characters for what they are. In Isaac, 775 01:01:22,119 --> 01:01:24,760 your term of like maybe this is a really powerful therapy session is where 776 01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:28,079 my brain is at with this. It's not just a dream, it's a 777 01:01:28,079 --> 01:01:37,519 really powerful therapy session. Is the managers are Arthur and also we see I 778 01:01:37,639 --> 01:01:43,159 forgot his father in law, Michael Kine, whatever his character's names. If 779 01:01:43,159 --> 01:01:45,400 we do learn his name, it's very fleeting. It is very fleeting. 780 01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:52,920 Alfred, we'll see, I'm here for this. He definitely was daddy Butler 781 01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:58,280 here. But we see the managers, right, the managers who try to 782 01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:00,960 keep stuff. And I don't know if it's in or Brittany who said, 783 01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:04,599 like the Arthur is like a manager's kind of like given up. It's kind 784 01:02:04,599 --> 01:02:06,639 of like I'm gonna run this stuff, but like I'm not going to try 785 01:02:06,639 --> 01:02:08,960 to control you. Al must just like war out, like I can't keep 786 01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:15,079 operating at this level, dude, right. And then the fire the firefighters 787 01:02:15,119 --> 01:02:22,760 we see like Eames. Eames is a firefighter and he looks so good in 788 01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:28,000 this movie. Surprised you guys, don't like he's like very cleaned up. 789 01:02:28,039 --> 01:02:31,599 He's not all trimed up, and he like of a little work, don't. 790 01:02:31,719 --> 01:02:37,599 The way that Christopher Nolans Nolan will hide his face in movies is hate 791 01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:42,119 is hater is hater behavior, and I you know, I'm glad an inception 792 01:02:42,159 --> 01:02:44,880 he does not do that. Yeah, let's him be the beautiful man that 793 01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:52,119 he is anyway. So you see Eames as a firefighter. The the chemist 794 01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:54,639 is kind of sort of a blend of firefighter and manager kind of because he's 795 01:02:54,719 --> 01:02:59,639 kind of taking on a couple of different roles. And then the exiles. 796 01:03:00,159 --> 01:03:04,360 Ariadne is an exile. When looking at it, as you know, and 797 01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:06,599 Isaac, when you dropped if on it, I'm like, already been thinking 798 01:03:06,639 --> 01:03:09,239 this way, but then it conquetizes for me. So the way they're described 799 01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:15,119 is vulnerable usually young parts that hold trauma, fear, and shame that are 800 01:03:15,159 --> 01:03:20,280 shut away to keep them safe, but also to stop them from overwhelming the 801 01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:25,559 system. So here's why the interaction of parts makes sense for me watching this 802 01:03:25,599 --> 01:03:30,719 story and the share of factoid about this movie that I learned this weekend watching 803 01:03:30,719 --> 01:03:36,440 it is the manager part of the father in law of Alfred Daddy Butler in 804 01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:45,039 Brittany and Hannah's language was introducing Dom the self to a younger, better version 805 01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:50,920 of him. Remember he tells him, I've got someone better. He is 806 01:03:51,639 --> 01:03:55,280 interacting with an idealized version of himself that can do all of the things he 807 01:03:55,320 --> 01:04:00,559 can do and is operating a memory. That bridge memory concretized it. For 808 01:04:00,599 --> 01:04:02,559 me, this is exactly where my brand went when I watch at this time, 809 01:04:02,559 --> 01:04:06,079 I went, like, son of a bitch, that character is him? 810 01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:13,159 Is that memory using that bridge? That then Mall shows up on ties 811 01:04:13,239 --> 01:04:17,760 all this theory together because yes, she walks over that bridge every day to 812 01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:23,800 school to go to what I'm assuming his Oxford. But watching the way Mall 813 01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:26,679 shows up and the whole world starts to break when that bridge is using, 814 01:04:26,719 --> 01:04:30,639 Dom realizes where he is, is the part starting to interact and talk with 815 01:04:30,679 --> 01:04:36,320 each other. But watching how Dom interacts with the exiled part of himself that 816 01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:41,400 he still believes is good enough and has the skills to get him out of 817 01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:45,639 this, but stays isolated from the self by the shame. Is exactly what 818 01:04:45,679 --> 01:04:51,239 we see illustrated in that that the shame comes in and disrupts the connection of 819 01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:57,519 self and exiled part that is protected because that is where his hopes and dreams 820 01:04:57,519 --> 01:05:00,480 lie. And as the same problem we run into with clients where they are 821 01:05:00,559 --> 01:05:05,800 given the opportunity to connect to what EMDR would call a resource memory, and 822 01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:12,079 you get them almost activated enough that they feel enough hope that they can overcome 823 01:05:12,119 --> 01:05:16,280 again and feel engaged, but shame shows its face again and destroys it. 824 01:05:17,719 --> 01:05:19,599 I don't know if this is the fact to it you're going to say, 825 01:05:19,639 --> 01:05:24,159 Ben, but it's something I had mentioned before Star recording, is that that 826 01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:29,599 character's name is Greek for creator of dreams Ariadne. That's why that name, 827 01:05:29,639 --> 01:05:32,400 I think is kind of anachronistic sounding, which is why it's not rolling off 828 01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:36,840 the tongue. So if they are, if that character is a creation of 829 01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:42,920 dom it makes sense then why they would have this pretentious ass name with this 830 01:05:43,519 --> 01:05:46,760 pretentious ass meaning and which good to speak. Christopher Nolan no offense to him. 831 01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:51,400 And also I'm sure Dom's done a ton of research doing the work that 832 01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:57,280 he does, and would know things like Ariadne is the name of the creator 833 01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:02,760 of dreams within Greek mythology, and so too, would your subconscious know that 834 01:06:03,079 --> 01:06:10,039 and then likely name apart that from a bit of learning that was meaningful to 835 01:06:10,079 --> 01:06:14,320 you at some point in time, and would name a part we crack the 836 01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:23,159 movie podcast over. It only took ten years, but we figured you out. 837 01:06:23,159 --> 01:06:28,920 Bro. So the fact what I wanted to drop that I learned from 838 01:06:29,039 --> 01:06:35,119 The Lovely Amazon X ray was that when Christopher Nolan was writing this movie, 839 01:06:35,719 --> 01:06:44,000 he was writing it from parts that he understood and wrote each character as if 840 01:06:44,039 --> 01:06:49,199 they were a part of the creative process of writing a movie. So Sito 841 01:06:49,599 --> 01:06:55,840 was a producer, Eames was the actor, Ariadne I think was the writer, 842 01:06:56,559 --> 01:07:01,639 that I think Don was the director, and then maybe Arthur was the 843 01:07:01,639 --> 01:07:05,559 EP or something. Well, it makes sense he's writing a heist within the 844 01:07:05,639 --> 01:07:13,719 roles that of the group work. Then he understands. Yeah, So I 845 01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:15,800 feel like that's that's a good breaking point for me. But if you guys 846 01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:19,360 have other things you want to follow upon that idea with I am all yours. 847 01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:25,599 One thing that comes to mind is who is the target? So originally 848 01:07:26,039 --> 01:07:30,920 in the conceit of this dream, it's Robert, This this young businessman trying 849 01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:35,920 to get his daddy's love. Write another exile. But if he is a 850 01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:43,559 part of Dom, part of him that is feeling without you know, appreciation, 851 01:07:43,639 --> 01:07:47,400 without affection, without well, I really love. I mean for somebody 852 01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:53,400 that blames himself for his wife's death, where his wife's suicide as if it's 853 01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:57,519 his awful Yeah, it's going to be really hard for him to accept any 854 01:07:57,559 --> 01:08:00,760 love. In fact, that's one of the symptoms of PTSD, is an 855 01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:06,960 inability to feel loving feelings or happy feelings. So this may be his effort 856 01:08:08,039 --> 01:08:13,280 to help himself acknowledge his inner child and engage with the fact that he is 857 01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:16,760 a human being and worthy of some sort of love, and perhaps even why 858 01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:21,680 he chooses to stick around with the kiddos whether or not the top falls. 859 01:08:23,319 --> 01:08:26,359 I'm going to take that. I'm a room with it because that has inspired 860 01:08:26,399 --> 01:08:30,079 me too. Because also I think what's really interesting about the robber and his 861 01:08:30,119 --> 01:08:36,399 father's storyline is that connecting it with Dom is that right now he is arguably 862 01:08:36,399 --> 01:08:41,920 failing his children right, like he is not handling their mother's death well. 863 01:08:42,399 --> 01:08:45,319 And one of the few things they talk about within the Robert and his father 864 01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:50,159 relationship is how poorly Robert's father supported him through the death of his mother, 865 01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:56,479 and so part of it too, I wonder as a bit of a reconciliation 866 01:08:56,520 --> 01:09:00,880 resolution factor for dom of you know, even down the road, you can 867 01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:05,279 forgive your father and find a place where you still feel loved and connected to 868 01:09:05,359 --> 01:09:11,920 him even when he's really fucked shut up, including how to support you emotionally 869 01:09:12,399 --> 01:09:15,960 through a horrific time of your life. One thing I wanted to say, 870 01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:19,680 and then I'll throw it to the break, is that what I love about 871 01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:24,680 the actual inception Heist is that it does boil down to something that I think 872 01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:29,960 is really true, which is that because I'm a child therapist, that's my 873 01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:34,840 background, is that, yeah, is that everything I feel? I believe 874 01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:38,520 there's a kid in us forever? Right. We could argue that's the part 875 01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:43,279 stuff too, And so what I love about this movie is it does make 876 01:09:43,359 --> 01:09:46,039 that case, which is that regardless of all the esteem and the money and 877 01:09:46,079 --> 01:09:50,479 the prestige and the business and the ego and dad, that this Robert person 878 01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:55,000 has that you could definitely dial into. Em says right away, it doesn't 879 01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:57,680 matter. You have to go down to the simplest thing, which is his 880 01:09:57,760 --> 01:10:00,479 relationship with his father. Because I think when I talk with clients, so 881 01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:04,199 much can be boiled down to and not in that stereotypical way where people get 882 01:10:04,239 --> 01:10:06,760 all up their butts when they're like, oh, you're going to therapy because 883 01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:11,319 it's your parents fault, But it is this idea that, like so much 884 01:10:11,359 --> 01:10:14,960 of what we learn and so much of what is imprinted upon us happens when 885 01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:17,159 we're young, when we're figuring out the world, and so how can it 886 01:10:17,279 --> 01:10:19,880 not dial back to that, not in a way where it's anyone's fault, 887 01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:24,000 but just it's like cause and effect, right, And so I love that 888 01:10:24,039 --> 01:10:28,920 this movie, realistically, I believe goes back to that idea of you know 889 01:10:29,239 --> 01:10:32,520 it is the most common denominator is do you feel love? Do you feel 890 01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:35,760 love from your parent? No matter how old we get. I wrote my 891 01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:42,960 notes, we're always children that penwell being in the same you know of like 892 01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:46,479 we always want even if our parents suck, even if they're non existent, 893 01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:49,680 even if they're whatever. Because I've worked with I've worked with a lot of 894 01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:54,800 like foster kids, adopted kids, adults that have a lot of different experiences, 895 01:10:54,920 --> 01:11:00,800 there's always a part of us that hold longing for them to be validated 896 01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:01,960 by them, even if they suck, even like I said, even if 897 01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:05,399 they've been a black hole of nothing for you, and so part of it. 898 01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:11,279 So the fact that they connect to that. In this movie I found 899 01:11:11,319 --> 01:11:15,640 to be very realistic about the psychology of us as human beings. And I 900 01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:18,640 think if you were to incept someone and for it to really stick, it 901 01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:23,239 would have to connect to that because that is one of the most powerful elements 902 01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:30,199 and all of our core beings is our relationship with our parents. So I'll 903 01:11:30,199 --> 01:11:34,159 throw it to a break there we'll be right back. So getting back from 904 01:11:34,199 --> 01:11:36,279 that idea, Ben, I know one thing you wanted to make sure we 905 01:11:36,359 --> 01:11:42,119 touched upon is the concept of implanting an idea. Since you are trained in 906 01:11:42,199 --> 01:11:45,279 hypnosis. We talked about this if you really want to get more about this 907 01:11:45,319 --> 01:11:48,119 in our get Out episode from a few years back. We obviously talked about 908 01:11:48,159 --> 01:11:51,840 hypnosis and depths because that's a big part of that movie. So if you 909 01:11:51,880 --> 01:11:57,239 want more, I would suggest you listen an episode. But Ben I'm sure 910 01:11:57,279 --> 01:12:02,239 you want to do a little just PSA about implanting an idea for anyone who's 911 01:12:02,279 --> 01:12:05,960 nervous that they're going to get incepted and you're going to tell them that the 912 01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:11,640 world's not real and it's going to drive them insane. Yes, I'll make 913 01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:13,960 them believe they're a chicken, you know, one of those embarrassing ones. 914 01:12:14,119 --> 01:12:16,960 It's almost always that one. I don't know that it's it's so pervasive. 915 01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:20,640 I don't know why. I mean, I do know why, and it's 916 01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:30,359 why people who are trained in clinical hypnosis and choose to be members of the 917 01:12:30,399 --> 01:12:35,520 American Society for Clinical Hypnosis, in their joining of that society and accepting of 918 01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:42,640 the training, etc. Certifications, must agree not to do show hypnosis because 919 01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:47,439 of how harmful that is. And what people don't understand about show hypnosis is 920 01:12:47,479 --> 01:12:51,079 that people who would get up and act a little goofy and silly in front 921 01:12:51,119 --> 01:12:55,279 of a group of people would probably do it if they were a little inebriated. 922 01:12:55,760 --> 01:12:59,880 So it's more permission, like, it's more correlation, not causation kind 923 01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:04,119 of stuff. It's correlation, it's encouragement. It's engagement of parts that might 924 01:13:04,159 --> 01:13:09,960 allow them to be a little childish and silly. And some people have that 925 01:13:10,239 --> 01:13:12,359 right on their sleeve, and you know they would do it. Like, 926 01:13:12,359 --> 01:13:15,600 if you know me, you know there's a one thousand percent chance that I 927 01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:20,800 would participate in a hypnosis show and let whatever ridiculous nonsense happen go within and 928 01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:25,239 make it fun. There are other people who would be like, that's a 929 01:13:25,279 --> 01:13:28,279 secret, hidden part of them they might like to let out, but wouldn't 930 01:13:28,279 --> 01:13:33,800 tell anybody about. However, the people who would die immediately of shame by 931 01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:40,600 having their insides melted out like hot lava. If I shan't be hypnotized, 932 01:13:41,439 --> 01:13:48,000 I shan't because you are that person. I am imagining you immolating from the 933 01:13:48,039 --> 01:13:53,359 inside out in shame. If someone made you afraid of a rubber fishing lure 934 01:13:53,399 --> 01:13:55,960 and told you it was the scariestmunster. If I remember in a situation where 935 01:13:55,960 --> 01:14:00,199 I'm in a magic show, we're already in an ultra reality of my life. 936 01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:08,119 But but no, like as far as can a therapist implant an idea 937 01:14:08,199 --> 01:14:14,000 into your mind, can they implant a reality? No? Right, we 938 01:14:14,079 --> 01:14:17,880 can't put something into your head. We can't incept an idea. However, 939 01:14:18,319 --> 01:14:24,760 what's important to remember is that when doing any kind of work with the subconscious, 940 01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:31,840 you do want to avoid creating an opportunity. Was that suggestion kind of 941 01:14:32,279 --> 01:14:39,720 telling the other person what their experience means or what they are thinking, right, 942 01:14:40,239 --> 01:14:44,159 You want to avoid doing that because well, you can't implant an idea, 943 01:14:44,279 --> 01:14:48,600 you can affect how they might view something in the idea of like false 944 01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:55,960 memories, where there has been studies and why hypnosis in many cases in courtrooms 945 01:14:56,039 --> 01:15:01,479 is not allowed is because like if someone's trying to say that they remember being 946 01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:06,960 abused, for example, like if this memory was produced solely under hypnosis, 947 01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:12,479 it would not be admissible, and it's a psychologist cannot insect, but a 948 01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:16,880 lawyer can. Ah, Right, see how that works. One more reason 949 01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:26,760 to avoid lawyers sincetimes. Right, But remembering it's absolutely not okay for us 950 01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:31,840 to when someone is in a vulnerable state, interpret something for them and assign 951 01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:38,119 meaning to it. It's important for us to encourage growth of their own understanding 952 01:15:38,159 --> 01:15:42,520 so that they can confront things that are difficult and while not completely hidden away 953 01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:45,279 from them, may be blocked, and help them understand meaning of it on 954 01:15:45,359 --> 01:15:50,000 their own without us telling them. This means that happened to you. You're 955 01:15:50,079 --> 01:15:56,600 having this bad dream because somebody touched you inappropriately. You're having this bad dream 956 01:15:56,640 --> 01:15:59,359 because this bad thing happened to you. We have to avoid doing that. 957 01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:03,760 And when someone trusts you as a provider to use hypnosis, it's very important 958 01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:09,279 that you use suggestions. Maybe you'd like to uncover a deeper layer of this 959 01:16:09,399 --> 01:16:13,600 memory without saying, maybe you'd like to remember the time that somebody did something 960 01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:17,479 wrong to you. I think that's closer, But like those two things are 961 01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:20,359 okay, Well, what you don't want to say is maybe you'd like to 962 01:16:20,399 --> 01:16:25,239 remember the time your uncle did something he wasn't supposed to to you. If 963 01:16:25,279 --> 01:16:30,159 the client has not mentioned that, you don't want to incorporate ideas into their 964 01:16:30,199 --> 01:16:33,319 head because false memories are real. So why you can't incept clients having false 965 01:16:33,399 --> 01:16:36,880 memories and then parts locking into it is, ah, look, an avenue 966 01:16:38,039 --> 01:16:43,840 for me to defend my vulnerable psyche parts. Let's lock into that. That 967 01:16:44,319 --> 01:16:47,520 can't happen. Doesn't make it real and doesn't mean the person will fully believe 968 01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:50,439 it, but people will attach to an idea of oh, that's it. 969 01:16:50,680 --> 01:16:59,079 That's why the miscuse of the authority position as the one with the knowledge. 970 01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:03,720 If my hypnotist is telling me this, maybe maybe they're onto something. Maybe 971 01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:08,079 they know something that I don't know. Maybe they are unlocking because they didn't 972 01:17:08,159 --> 01:17:12,239 study that. The patient, the client didn't study this, so they do 973 01:17:12,720 --> 01:17:16,359 depend on those of us who are guiding and supporting them, whether it's hypnosis 974 01:17:16,399 --> 01:17:20,119 and dream analysis or even just therapy and of itself. We need to be 975 01:17:20,439 --> 01:17:26,520 humanistic about it and let the patient kind of be their own expert, and 976 01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:30,560 we just act as the guide and get them to ask themselves these questions. 977 01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:33,880 Yeah, thank you. I feel like I made a topic that's clear as 978 01:17:33,920 --> 01:17:38,359 moud already merk here, So I don't feel like I did the best job 979 01:17:38,399 --> 01:17:41,760 explaining that. I mean, I think what you're saying, which I think 980 01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:45,920 is true even outside of hypnosis, which I think is also what you're hitting 981 01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:49,319 on, Isaac, is that therapists we're not supposed to be they say bad 982 01:17:49,359 --> 01:17:55,680 therapist gives advice like therapists aren't supposed to be super directive in that way unless 983 01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:59,319 you're doing like even like CBT work, Like you can give homework, but 984 01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:01,520 that's not like you're not telling people who they are and what they're what's wrong 985 01:18:01,520 --> 01:18:05,319 with them, like dad, YadA YadA. Because also, especially when someone 986 01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:12,079 is engaging in therapy, they're at different levels of vulnerability. And so there 987 01:18:12,119 --> 01:18:14,960 are certain clients and certain people I've worked with where I have to be very 988 01:18:15,079 --> 01:18:19,760 careful about, like every reflection that comes out of my mouth, because I 989 01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:23,920 know there's a possibility, because of whatever state of mind they're in, that 990 01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:27,000 they're going to take that thought and run with it. You know, Oh, 991 01:18:27,079 --> 01:18:30,439 maybe something did happen when I was young, or maybe my dad did 992 01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:32,680 do that, or maybe that, and I have to be like, oh, 993 01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:36,239 like you know, like you were saying, is like they're the expert 994 01:18:36,279 --> 01:18:41,840 of their own lives, like you. I be very wary of any therapist 995 01:18:41,920 --> 01:18:45,960 who makes a lot of like leaping connections, especially when they're new to you, 996 01:18:46,960 --> 01:18:53,039 because people I have worked with people where I can definitely tell they've taken 997 01:18:53,119 --> 01:18:57,960 something that an old therapist or a life coach or maybe something they read and 998 01:18:58,159 --> 01:19:01,680 like ran with it and have really let it like it didn't scept them in 999 01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:06,840 the way, and it formed a whole beast of ideas off of that one 1000 01:19:06,960 --> 01:19:12,279 idea and sometimes even like formed the way that someone thinks about themselves. And 1001 01:19:12,359 --> 01:19:17,000 then my job can ironically be to get to the bottom of that and dispel 1002 01:19:17,079 --> 01:19:21,359 it as needed as needed, and you know kind of say like, well, 1003 01:19:21,439 --> 01:19:25,720 what did that idea give to you? More like with the idea of 1004 01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:30,399 like implanting an idea, like what was so not seductive is the wrong word, 1005 01:19:30,479 --> 01:19:39,880 but what was soguing, intriguing, interesting, relieving, powerful? Why 1006 01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:45,479 did that feel good in some capacity to find that idea and to run with 1007 01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:47,119 that idea? And then I would probably wouldn't say run with it, but 1008 01:19:47,800 --> 01:19:55,640 you know, why did that feel so empowering or whatever or whatever I'm can 1009 01:19:55,800 --> 01:19:59,520 insert of vigilian adjectives here, but I think that can be interesting. But 1010 01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:03,920 there are in populations of people that I work with who they are more vulnerable 1011 01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:10,479 to suggestion, even just being in a therapy session with me. So I 1012 01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:13,159 hear what you're saying, Ben, because with the hypnosis part too, like 1013 01:20:13,319 --> 01:20:16,479 you just have to be careful about the influence you have, but not necessarily 1014 01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:21,640 that you're going to make someone think something totally an original thought that they wouldn't 1015 01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:27,680 have had themselves, right, you can't. The idea of the defenses the 1016 01:20:28,439 --> 01:20:31,680 way that they were depicted in the movie is really important, because someone who 1017 01:20:31,800 --> 01:20:38,920 doesn't want to think something, doesn't believe something will not your brain will not 1018 01:20:39,119 --> 01:20:41,960 let you believe things that are not true. Yeah, I mean, I 1019 01:20:42,039 --> 01:20:44,680 wish that was different in therapy, if I could get my clients to believe 1020 01:20:44,720 --> 01:20:47,039 some of the stuff I'm trying to get them to believe about themselves. Fuck. 1021 01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:53,199 Yeah, So you're making a good point. Yeah, I mean I 1022 01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:58,319 wish I could get people to believe things. But two, but it's if 1023 01:20:58,319 --> 01:21:00,279 I can't get them to believe things are true, how the hell can I 1024 01:21:00,319 --> 01:21:04,960 get them believe things that aren't true. Makes it very similar to how the 1025 01:21:05,720 --> 01:21:13,399 modern dream analysis approaches where in you know, old Freudan times, if you 1026 01:21:13,479 --> 01:21:15,800 would tell you exactly, oh, you're dreaming of going up and down the 1027 01:21:15,880 --> 01:21:19,000 stairs, up and down, up and down, obvious if you all know 1028 01:21:19,079 --> 01:21:24,439 what this means. But nowadays stairs can mean different things to different people, 1029 01:21:25,279 --> 01:21:29,840 as well as you know, floods or even teeth falling out. So dream 1030 01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:35,079 diaries or dream dictionaries more specifically, you know, they're very eurocentric, They're 1031 01:21:35,159 --> 01:21:40,640 very focused on just the population that you know made those initial associations. But 1032 01:21:41,359 --> 01:21:45,720 you're the expert of your dreams. You're the expert of your life. You've 1033 01:21:45,319 --> 01:21:49,319 been with you more of your life than we therapists have for you know, 1034 01:21:49,439 --> 01:21:55,000 just a few hours over a couple of weeks. So modern dream analysis for 1035 01:21:55,079 --> 01:21:59,159 anyone who's curious or interested in it, or even dream work or dream therapies, 1036 01:21:59,760 --> 01:22:03,119 it goes about in the same way that then was mentioning that we would 1037 01:22:03,319 --> 01:22:09,359 just be there to help you. Ask yourself these main questions, what does 1038 01:22:09,439 --> 01:22:14,199 this mean to you? What are your associations with this imagery or this character 1039 01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:18,600 or this emotion and reaction and pattern that you seem to be going through in 1040 01:22:18,640 --> 01:22:23,000 their dream? And where do you see that in waking life? More likely 1041 01:22:23,079 --> 01:22:29,159 than not, the dreamer probably has a better idea than any idea that you 1042 01:22:29,239 --> 01:22:34,159 know someone can concoct from their own associations. Its completely independent. Just the 1043 01:22:34,239 --> 01:22:38,159 same way that we can't enter their dream, we can't read anyone's mind, 1044 01:22:38,560 --> 01:22:44,399 even though we have psyche in our job description. Correct, And where that 1045 01:22:44,680 --> 01:22:48,600 line is that we're trying to explain to this is this is several hours of 1046 01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:55,239 graduate school and ethics training that we're trying to impart and cram into a short 1047 01:22:55,319 --> 01:23:00,439 segment on a podcast to help understand what is one of the more important concepts 1048 01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:05,279 of being a responsible provider and Asac said, respecting the power we have as 1049 01:23:05,319 --> 01:23:11,359 the role of an expert is that it's important that we don't take away the 1050 01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:18,079 autonomy of the experiences clients have had to assign meaning to them from our reference 1051 01:23:18,159 --> 01:23:25,039 point, because it might be completely invalid to the meaning clients have assigned to 1052 01:23:25,119 --> 01:23:29,600 things, and letting them be the expert and use their own lexicon and own 1053 01:23:29,680 --> 01:23:33,920 definitions of things. A cigar maybe just a cigar to some people, but 1054 01:23:34,039 --> 01:23:41,000 to other people maybe something else, and that could be nefarious or could be 1055 01:23:41,920 --> 01:23:45,920 completely benign. But the beholder gets to be the keeper of that information and 1056 01:23:46,840 --> 01:23:51,359 the utilizer of it. I think it's really important to recognize we have a 1057 01:23:51,439 --> 01:23:58,880 responsibility and why it's important to work with people that have ethics training that they 1058 01:23:58,920 --> 01:24:03,399 don't give advice, that they help pave a pathway where it's safe for clients 1059 01:24:03,479 --> 01:24:14,119 to explore thoughts and meanings of experiences from different angles while managing their effective responses, 1060 01:24:14,800 --> 01:24:19,920 but not be keepers of the information because and keepers of the healing that 1061 01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:25,119 we're empowering our clients to heal through their own means and reconnecting them to it, 1062 01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:30,000 not providing them with access to them that they have to keep paying us 1063 01:24:30,039 --> 01:24:35,079 for. That's actually fucked up. If anybody's have a therapist that you're starting 1064 01:24:35,119 --> 01:24:39,880 to recognize hers starting to hear, Wait a minute, this is sounding suspiciously 1065 01:24:40,039 --> 01:24:45,199 like X therapist here or that therapists there. You are always more than well 1066 01:24:45,239 --> 01:24:51,479 welcome to shop around. Yeah, definitely, it's like dating. Just swipe 1067 01:24:51,479 --> 01:24:55,520 around. If you don't like it. You can also tell your therapist listen, 1068 01:24:55,520 --> 01:24:57,359 I don't like that A, B, and C is happening? Can 1069 01:24:57,399 --> 01:24:59,880 you do it X, Y, and Z style? And if they can 1070 01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:02,560 at a good ethical therapist would probably say, you know what, you might 1071 01:25:02,720 --> 01:25:05,800 better have better luck with this other therapist stuff here. And if they're like, 1072 01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:08,680 no, no, no, no, it's very important that you do 1073 01:25:08,760 --> 01:25:11,039 it my way and only my way and there's no other ways, Well, 1074 01:25:11,079 --> 01:25:15,880 that sounds feels kind of culty, and maybe it's best to just say goodbye. 1075 01:25:15,000 --> 01:25:18,159 Well, within reason, obviously, make sure you can carry yourself and 1076 01:25:18,319 --> 01:25:23,600 have the next therapist ready to go before you go. A therapist list for 1077 01:25:23,720 --> 01:25:28,600 a bit if you absolutely need it. Yeah, well said yet Hannah, 1078 01:25:28,720 --> 01:25:31,039 go ahead, Hannah, Well, I was just thinking about what are the 1079 01:25:31,159 --> 01:25:35,520 things that I say to clients to help give them some autonomy in general, 1080 01:25:35,640 --> 01:25:39,000 And one of the thoughts that came to my mind is I always say to 1081 01:25:39,119 --> 01:25:44,279 them, I can be wrong. So if I if this doesn't sound right, 1082 01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:46,239 or if there's something about the way that I reflect it back to you, 1083 01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:49,680 always let me know, because it's not going to hurt my feelings. 1084 01:25:50,119 --> 01:25:55,079 It's not gonna I need to know. If it doesn't match for you, 1085 01:25:55,239 --> 01:25:58,840 then it doesn't match. And that's okay because there's a billion different ways to 1086 01:25:58,920 --> 01:26:02,000 feel and a billion different kinds of thoughts that we can have about it. 1087 01:26:02,840 --> 01:26:06,640 So I feel like I was just really thinking about what do I do to 1088 01:26:06,760 --> 01:26:11,079 help clients besides let them know too that they have a choice that like, 1089 01:26:11,439 --> 01:26:14,159 if we have some sessions and they don't feel like it's a good fit, 1090 01:26:14,279 --> 01:26:17,159 that that's always going to be okay with me. That I know that I 1091 01:26:17,399 --> 01:26:24,319 know because I have been really lucky and have gotten really good therapists every time 1092 01:26:24,359 --> 01:26:27,920 I've had to. But I know that that doesn't always happen. I know 1093 01:26:28,079 --> 01:26:32,840 that actually most of the time that doesn't happen based on just based on people 1094 01:26:32,920 --> 01:26:38,079 that I've worked with. But I mean, it's what I was thinking about, 1095 01:26:38,199 --> 01:26:43,760 if this empowers people listening. I fired a therapist myself like this year. 1096 01:26:44,319 --> 01:26:45,279 And I'm not saying this to shame the therapist. I'm not going to 1097 01:26:45,319 --> 01:26:48,279 say her name or anything, but because it's like we weren't and she didn't 1098 01:26:48,279 --> 01:26:51,760 really necessarily do anything wrong wrong, It's just we weren't clicking. It became 1099 01:26:51,840 --> 01:26:57,560 more and more clear that her viewpoint on some things were just in direct opposition 1100 01:26:57,760 --> 01:27:01,560 to kind of pities I have and things that I need. And I didn't 1101 01:27:01,560 --> 01:27:08,960 want to do the emotional labor to clear that up for her. And you 1102 01:27:09,079 --> 01:27:11,439 can decide as a client if you want to do that or not, you 1103 01:27:11,520 --> 01:27:13,680 know, And I didn't want to do that on top of the other work 1104 01:27:13,720 --> 01:27:16,800 I needed to do, and so I very peacefully just part of the ways. 1105 01:27:16,800 --> 01:27:18,880 But you can do that, and it's you know, I did I 1106 01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:23,800 feel anxious doing it? Oh a thousand percent? Did I read the message 1107 01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:28,680 I sent her about twenty eight thousand times? Yeah before I sent it, 1108 01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:33,479 Yeah, And nothing that that happened. But any who, any one thing 1109 01:27:33,520 --> 01:27:40,079 else you want to say about inception before we go into treatment and final thoughts, 1110 01:27:40,600 --> 01:27:43,479 I think just the last thing I want to say on it is because 1111 01:27:43,520 --> 01:27:45,800 I think I've got, you know, clarified in my head now, is 1112 01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:53,600 that it is very possible to implant ideas in people's mind. It is not 1113 01:27:53,920 --> 01:27:59,760 possible to implant things that people do not want, are not willing to accept 1114 01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:06,600 and consider, and are not true. People will inherently activate their defenses to 1115 01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:11,840 rejectings that aren't true that they know at their core. And that's especially true 1116 01:28:12,479 --> 01:28:16,760 when we're trying to I see this with young career therapists when they try to 1117 01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:21,960 absolve people of faults in a situation that they feel guilty about that they know 1118 01:28:23,279 --> 01:28:27,279 our facts. And I think that's an important angle that we haven't talked about 1119 01:28:27,319 --> 01:28:30,399 on the show enough, is that you can't absolve people of faults they know 1120 01:28:30,520 --> 01:28:36,720 they have, and it works both ways. You can't tell them things that 1121 01:28:36,720 --> 01:28:43,479 aren't true and infect an idea in their head that their father loved them and 1122 01:28:43,640 --> 01:28:45,840 wanted them to break up their company when that is most certainly not true. 1123 01:28:45,880 --> 01:28:49,119 Their father wanted them to be a spitting image of them. And you can't 1124 01:28:49,399 --> 01:28:55,600 tell them they don't have fault when they did, But you can adjust the 1125 01:28:55,840 --> 01:28:59,960 way that they think about that thought Okay, maybe my father would have wanted 1126 01:29:00,039 --> 01:29:02,359 at this, but is this what I want? And do I need to 1127 01:29:03,399 --> 01:29:06,479 adhere to the world my father wanted? Or I'm I allowed to see my 1128 01:29:06,560 --> 01:29:10,840 own world and operate in the way that I see fit and in the same 1129 01:29:10,880 --> 01:29:15,680 way of do I have fault? And even though I had some degree of 1130 01:29:15,760 --> 01:29:21,319 fault in the loss of X, Y or Z, person's life, job, 1131 01:29:21,399 --> 01:29:25,840 etc. Am I the sole cause of that? Are there are other 1132 01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:30,159 factors that contribute? And is it appropriate for me to have as much guilt 1133 01:29:30,199 --> 01:29:31,720 as I'm holding. You don't try to take the guilt away, but it 1134 01:29:31,880 --> 01:29:38,239 is possible to add to the perspective. So a trained in NIGHTSNSE therapist is 1135 01:29:38,279 --> 01:29:42,880 going to be able to navigate those barriers where we often get friends to say 1136 01:29:42,960 --> 01:29:44,720 like, well, that's just not your fault. You just got to let 1137 01:29:44,760 --> 01:29:48,319 that go, and you go like super duper, I'm all better now. 1138 01:29:48,920 --> 01:29:51,640 It worked for everybody, right, all yeah, Isaac is blowing it off 1139 01:29:51,680 --> 01:29:56,760 his hands like all gone, that it works so well for all of us, 1140 01:29:56,840 --> 01:30:00,479 Like we'll just forget about it. Thank you scared me. You can't 1141 01:30:00,520 --> 01:30:03,079 want nothing that I had fought of that, like, just stop thinking about 1142 01:30:03,119 --> 01:30:09,760 it my god, So you know it is inception and it's core real, 1143 01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:14,600 I think no. But it responsibly managing the influence you have in the ability 1144 01:30:14,680 --> 01:30:18,920 to implant ideas which are infectious. I think that is that's something to be 1145 01:30:19,000 --> 01:30:21,960 mindful of. So the yes and the no, all right, So we 1146 01:30:23,039 --> 01:30:27,359 will take another break here and be right back. So with the treatment portion, 1147 01:30:27,399 --> 01:30:30,680 we've kind of touched upon a lot of treatment in this discussion. Does 1148 01:30:30,760 --> 01:30:35,199 anyone have any specific characters and anyone can jump on this that they would like 1149 01:30:35,359 --> 01:30:40,800 to do a specific approach with in their office. And the only thing I 1150 01:30:40,840 --> 01:30:45,079 would add as a someone who's on a lot of family work and child therapy 1151 01:30:45,319 --> 01:30:49,720 is I didn't like it when Dom was calling his kids home and you can 1152 01:30:49,840 --> 01:30:54,319 hear that their grandmother. Who I get it, it's Mall's mother. She's 1153 01:30:54,359 --> 01:30:57,560 probably gonna have her. She has her own trauma that she is or is 1154 01:30:57,600 --> 01:31:02,840 not dealing with. Is like telling these kids things that are really bad that 1155 01:31:03,000 --> 01:31:08,159 one kids don't need to know, and that two that I mean, it's 1156 01:31:08,199 --> 01:31:13,399 just her not dealing anyway. So I just thought it would be interesting. 1157 01:31:13,479 --> 01:31:15,720 Let's say if it is real I know we've been positing, is if this 1158 01:31:15,840 --> 01:31:17,800 is all Dom's internal world. But if it is real, he now is 1159 01:31:17,840 --> 01:31:23,399 back at home. He's back with the grandparents, which are his deceased wife's 1160 01:31:23,479 --> 01:31:27,600 parents. Specifically, they have been doing a lot of the primary caretaking of 1161 01:31:27,680 --> 01:31:31,359 his children. I don't know what now the parenting situation is going to look 1162 01:31:31,399 --> 01:31:35,279 like, because he strikes me as someone no offense who might need a decent 1163 01:31:35,279 --> 01:31:40,239 amount of support, especially if he keeps doing this kind of work. You 1164 01:31:40,319 --> 01:31:43,279 know, my hope is that post he's made it sound like this is his 1165 01:31:43,359 --> 01:31:45,960 one last job. Who knows that maybe he settles down and maybe he starts 1166 01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:49,359 teaching architecture. I don't know, but I'm making a whole fan fiction in 1167 01:31:49,399 --> 01:31:54,960 my head right now. But you know, my assumption is going to be 1168 01:31:55,079 --> 01:31:58,079 like the grandparents and him are going to have to be doing some version of 1169 01:31:58,159 --> 01:32:01,439 co parenting, probably for the us of these kids' lives, and so family 1170 01:32:01,520 --> 01:32:05,720 therapy can be used to do that sort of blended therapy work, which is 1171 01:32:06,319 --> 01:32:12,359 one I could see me as their therapist, just even just helping with the 1172 01:32:12,439 --> 01:32:15,520 logistics of co parenting without the kids involved, fish because the kids are so 1173 01:32:15,680 --> 01:32:17,880 young. Just like, what does co parenting look like now? That you 1174 01:32:18,039 --> 01:32:21,520 as the grandparents are taking on more of a parental role. And also you 1175 01:32:21,640 --> 01:32:26,800 maybe did a lot of the soul parenting for a good chunk while don was 1176 01:32:27,800 --> 01:32:32,319 you know, fleeing extradition, and you know, and then how do you 1177 01:32:32,800 --> 01:32:41,600 civilly co parent knowing that you're all who harboring your own initial feelings about your 1178 01:32:41,680 --> 01:32:46,960 grief, about the modality of the grief, about the fact of like did 1179 01:32:47,039 --> 01:32:51,319 their sudden law play a part? And what part did he play in her 1180 01:32:51,399 --> 01:32:56,920 death? And so I think that I just want to highlight that that is 1181 01:32:56,960 --> 01:33:01,159 an opportunity to do family therapy, not necessarily to work on the relationship between 1182 01:33:01,239 --> 01:33:04,600 them and the more of like way we think of family therapy, but more 1183 01:33:04,640 --> 01:33:11,000 about like how do we co parent in a way that helps the children? 1184 01:33:11,640 --> 01:33:14,760 And so if I were to work with them, maybe how I'd get buy 1185 01:33:14,880 --> 01:33:17,319 in from the mother in law, who I feel like has a lot of 1186 01:33:17,399 --> 01:33:24,000 thoughts going on understandably, so is can we prioritize the kids giving them a 1187 01:33:24,039 --> 01:33:27,680 stable household, and can we put some of our own personal feelings on a 1188 01:33:27,760 --> 01:33:32,880 shelf in these moments when we're trying to make the kids have a calm living 1189 01:33:32,960 --> 01:33:39,000 situation. So that's my only additional RANDO treatment idea I had, because it's 1190 01:33:39,039 --> 01:33:43,319 hard to think about treatment in this idea where what is every lost so much 1191 01:33:43,399 --> 01:33:47,479 is hypothetical. Yeah, I totally agree, and I think it's okay. 1192 01:33:47,560 --> 01:33:51,079 I think I'm gonna go next, just because I very much thought about that 1193 01:33:53,319 --> 01:33:57,920 very similar thing of like doing like almost like reintegration therapy with him and his 1194 01:33:58,119 --> 01:34:02,640 kids. Is what I was thinking about about, how based on how young 1195 01:34:02,760 --> 01:34:06,600 they are, based on but I even was thinking about them as I was 1196 01:34:08,680 --> 01:34:11,159 considering it. I was even thinking about what it would be like when they're 1197 01:34:11,199 --> 01:34:17,000 teenagers and they have and they start figuring out what actually happened and maybe putting 1198 01:34:17,079 --> 01:34:26,479 some pieces together and have the brain capacity to understand the nuances of the experience 1199 01:34:26,600 --> 01:34:31,800 that they've been either told about or whatever they actually experienced, and what things 1200 01:34:31,840 --> 01:34:38,199 look like for them. So that made me think of of of working with 1201 01:34:38,359 --> 01:34:43,640 them as a family and kind of really again helping them manage their grief, 1202 01:34:45,079 --> 01:34:49,800 because when everything changes in a kid's life like that, the chances that those 1203 01:34:49,880 --> 01:34:55,399 kids have properly grieved is probably pretty slim for a couple of different reasons. 1204 01:34:55,479 --> 01:35:00,239 One their ages in terms of how they can conceptualize death. Like I think 1205 01:35:00,359 --> 01:35:04,399 the little the boys seems to be younger. James seems to be younger. 1206 01:35:04,800 --> 01:35:10,720 Yeah, like really little, and so he wouldn't have the capacity to understand 1207 01:35:10,960 --> 01:35:15,760 things at that time. So it would be it would be a lot different 1208 01:35:15,760 --> 01:35:23,079 when they're when they're teenagers and have more a better sense, a better sense 1209 01:35:23,159 --> 01:35:26,039 of those things. And I think that's honestly, I think that's when he 1210 01:35:26,079 --> 01:35:32,119 would have a really hard time with them and really have and really and and 1211 01:35:32,199 --> 01:35:35,840 again. And it would depend on the work that like Brittany did with the 1212 01:35:35,920 --> 01:35:41,359 grandparents, because that has a big that has a big part in in how 1213 01:35:41,439 --> 01:35:45,079 they would maybe see their dad, the narrative of their mom and their dad 1214 01:35:45,239 --> 01:35:50,159 for sure. Yeah, absolutely so so yeah, I can't remember I was 1215 01:35:50,159 --> 01:35:55,359 going to say anything else. May I jump in here and if you think 1216 01:35:55,399 --> 01:36:00,960 of anything you can. Yeah. So I'm gonna lend a bit of both 1217 01:36:00,279 --> 01:36:06,560 the parent child therapy as well as some individual and more dream based work, 1218 01:36:08,119 --> 01:36:11,920 which are kind of my main specialties. I also work with kids, but 1219 01:36:12,159 --> 01:36:16,319 in the context of parent child interaction therapy or pc I, because at this 1220 01:36:16,479 --> 01:36:21,920 time the kids very much need some attention, needs some one on one time 1221 01:36:23,119 --> 01:36:28,119 with their dad with the remaining you know, direct parent, and in doing 1222 01:36:28,239 --> 01:36:32,199 so can get a sense of safety, a sense of security and stability in 1223 01:36:32,720 --> 01:36:38,079 what understandably is a very chaotic time in a kid's life. So I would 1224 01:36:38,119 --> 01:36:43,479 work with Dom and his kids in order for essentially for Dom to join the 1225 01:36:43,680 --> 01:36:46,800 kids in their play, in their dream world, but in waking life, 1226 01:36:47,239 --> 01:36:54,800 and follow their direction and promote the kind of behavior that you would like to 1227 01:36:54,880 --> 01:37:00,720 see, sharing and communicating, you know, even emotion control, some things 1228 01:37:00,800 --> 01:37:04,520 that definitely, you know, Dom and many of the other adult characters in 1229 01:37:04,640 --> 01:37:10,520 this movie could benefit from. And at the same time, I would love 1230 01:37:10,640 --> 01:37:15,720 to work with Dom in perhaps some imagery rehearsal therapy where we would take maybe 1231 01:37:15,760 --> 01:37:20,399 if this was one of his major dreams that he was having, or the 1232 01:37:20,560 --> 01:37:26,000 dreams of Mau that he recurrently has over and over again, always goes the 1233 01:37:26,039 --> 01:37:29,600 same way, and it always terrifies him so much he has to run away 1234 01:37:29,720 --> 01:37:33,680 and hide this part away. This is something that not maybe not I would 1235 01:37:33,720 --> 01:37:39,159 incept in him because I can't, But I would work with him and essentially 1236 01:37:39,319 --> 01:37:44,960 rescript what this dream would be, just like most recurring nightmares or even post 1237 01:37:45,039 --> 01:37:49,159 traumatic nightmares starting from that same neutral beginning, but then instead of going in 1238 01:37:49,239 --> 01:37:55,520 the negative direction, he chooses and rewrites it in either a positive or at 1239 01:37:55,600 --> 01:37:59,760 least a neutral direction, and then rehearses and rehearses and rehearses, so that 1240 01:38:00,760 --> 01:38:04,640 perhaps the dream starts to change, and whatever that waking life pattern is also 1241 01:38:04,720 --> 01:38:11,199 can start to change. I think that's phenomenal insight, and I love that 1242 01:38:11,239 --> 01:38:14,720 you guys are looking at the family members. I'm gonna pick up the trend 1243 01:38:14,800 --> 01:38:17,319 here. I'm going to talk about the character we haven't talked about much with 1244 01:38:17,479 --> 01:38:24,880 the another usual brilliant performance. There's two that stick out in my mind, 1245 01:38:25,000 --> 01:38:34,119 being Sito, who would almost certainly need therapy. But also I think the 1246 01:38:34,199 --> 01:38:39,199 biggest opportunity to make change would be it doesn't seem like it happened at all, 1247 01:38:39,960 --> 01:38:44,319 would be getting mall therapy after they come up, because I mean, 1248 01:38:44,600 --> 01:38:47,920 I had some questions about like the whole plot, like plant of her death, 1249 01:38:48,079 --> 01:38:53,159 like getting cleared by three psychiatrists, like enough to get in the weeds 1250 01:38:53,199 --> 01:38:56,000 in that, but I don't know how that would fly. But anyway, 1251 01:38:56,119 --> 01:39:01,640 go ahead on you know people who I mean, it does echo the realism 1252 01:39:01,680 --> 01:39:04,680 that people who want to commit suicide are going to do it, and there 1253 01:39:04,800 --> 01:39:10,359 is absolutely nothing even qualified professionals can do to stop it because they will not 1254 01:39:10,439 --> 01:39:15,239 tell us the truth, and they can construct a narrative and constructive part that 1255 01:39:15,359 --> 01:39:18,279 can tell us whatever truth they needed to and to make their plan happen. 1256 01:39:18,399 --> 01:39:27,800 I have experienced that and had seen it was completely deceived that someone was in 1257 01:39:27,920 --> 01:39:33,800 that place and then they were unfortunately didn't issue any clear mental bills of health 1258 01:39:33,880 --> 01:39:38,800 or anything. But I think getting Malls in therapy would have been helpful and 1259 01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:44,479 helping, like having someone meet her where she's at if she were willing, 1260 01:39:44,479 --> 01:39:47,279 because if she was really where she has presented to have been, I don't 1261 01:39:47,319 --> 01:39:51,960 know that therapy would have been any good, to be completely honest, because 1262 01:39:53,000 --> 01:39:55,960 she was quite clearly decided what she was going to do, that her world 1263 01:39:56,039 --> 01:39:59,359 was not real and that this is the choice she was going to make. 1264 01:39:59,399 --> 01:40:02,520 And thing I want to say, dude, try to illustrate some of the 1265 01:40:02,600 --> 01:40:06,359 harsh realism of dealing with when people are truly suicidal, is that Lanka just 1266 01:40:06,399 --> 01:40:11,640 said there's nothing, there is nothing anyone can do, which means it's no 1267 01:40:11,840 --> 01:40:16,000 one's fault, it's something that happened. It's terrible, it's heartbreaking, it's 1268 01:40:16,079 --> 01:40:21,319 hard, and it's tragic, but understanding that it is no one's fault, 1269 01:40:21,880 --> 01:40:27,359 that it is something someone decided to do. A part of them got hopeless 1270 01:40:27,399 --> 01:40:30,399 and believed that there was no other way out, Like I know. It's 1271 01:40:30,439 --> 01:40:33,319 something I've asked on this show before. It's something I'll talk to clients about. 1272 01:40:33,399 --> 01:40:36,640 Is understanding that there is a part of you that already knows what you 1273 01:40:36,680 --> 01:40:40,279 would do if you were trapped on one hundredth floor of a burning building, 1274 01:40:40,800 --> 01:40:45,319 whether you would jump or burn when those become your only choices, there is 1275 01:40:45,399 --> 01:40:47,279 a part of you that already knows what you would do. I'm going to 1276 01:40:47,359 --> 01:40:51,920 burn trying to run down the stairs, or I'm calling and I'm jumping because 1277 01:40:51,960 --> 01:40:55,560 I'm not going to burn. There's a part of you that already knows. 1278 01:40:55,600 --> 01:41:00,039 Inside of you, biologically, we are preprogrammed with something that tells us when 1279 01:41:00,079 --> 01:41:03,680 the game has been called and a choice must be made to get ourselves out 1280 01:41:03,720 --> 01:41:09,439 of pain. And Mam made hers, But if treatment could have been handed 1281 01:41:09,520 --> 01:41:12,800 to her to help her and meet her where she's at, that she doesn't 1282 01:41:12,800 --> 01:41:15,880 have to explain this whole experience that she had that is unexplainable. I think 1283 01:41:15,960 --> 01:41:20,199 there is a very powerful story for a therapist to pick up on there. 1284 01:41:20,239 --> 01:41:27,319 That clients we encounter will have stories that to them feel so beyond belief, 1285 01:41:27,840 --> 01:41:31,640 so unique, and maybe that no one can understand them, that no one 1286 01:41:31,680 --> 01:41:35,199 can hold the space for their story, that they one will believe them or 1287 01:41:35,359 --> 01:41:42,439 understand the gravity of it. But that's not a real thing. Therapists who 1288 01:41:42,520 --> 01:41:46,760 are skilled and a good fit for a client. Now you can, like 1289 01:41:46,800 --> 01:41:50,399 guys excited, shop around find a therapist that resonates with you. Because I 1290 01:41:50,439 --> 01:41:56,000 already young person approached me at the Khan talking about this very issue, which 1291 01:41:56,039 --> 01:41:59,520 might be why it's on you know me in Brittany's brain today is asking about 1292 01:41:59,560 --> 01:42:02,920 how you go about switching therapists, because that's important finding someone who is a 1293 01:42:02,960 --> 01:42:08,199 good fit. But a good therapist for you won't make you explain your situation, 1294 01:42:08,319 --> 01:42:10,720 but we'll let you be the expert of it and own the story. 1295 01:42:11,119 --> 01:42:14,159 And I don't think Maul got that, and I wish that she would have. 1296 01:42:14,239 --> 01:42:17,000 So having someone have that humanistic space where she gets to be the expert, 1297 01:42:17,199 --> 01:42:20,319 she can tell her story in a way that she doesn't have to explain 1298 01:42:20,399 --> 01:42:26,199 every detail or have someone go evaluate whether she's psychotic, but just let her 1299 01:42:26,239 --> 01:42:29,720 be the expert and tell her story. And that someone connects to her pain, 1300 01:42:30,800 --> 01:42:34,680 her terror, her confusion and validates it and lets her emote it safely 1301 01:42:35,239 --> 01:42:41,279 would be hugely beneficial for her. All Right, our final break here, 1302 01:42:41,319 --> 01:42:45,520 and then weave back for final thoughts. All right, so this is just 1303 01:42:45,600 --> 01:42:47,720 the portion where we talk about are I always want to think my thought is 1304 01:42:47,720 --> 01:42:53,920 always our secular views on the movie, but our non therapy views on the 1305 01:42:53,960 --> 01:42:58,039 movie. Would I love this movie. Christopher Nolan very rarely makes a movie 1306 01:42:58,119 --> 01:43:01,720 that I'm not into. I just saw Oppenheimer with Hannah recently we did Barbenheimer 1307 01:43:02,720 --> 01:43:09,279 and it was beautiful. I've never been so stressed out while watching two people 1308 01:43:10,000 --> 01:43:15,560 in a boring meeting room talk at each other. So I definitely will, 1309 01:43:15,560 --> 01:43:17,079 of course, I own this movie. I'll probably watch it and many more 1310 01:43:17,159 --> 01:43:23,279 times. It's the Nolan aesthetic, executive businessman aesthetic. You know. I 1311 01:43:23,359 --> 01:43:28,159 always think fun in his movies. It's like his own niche. I love 1312 01:43:28,199 --> 01:43:30,000 the music. I love a heist movie as well, and this movie, 1313 01:43:30,039 --> 01:43:33,239 if nothing else, I think is a good heist movie, which is why 1314 01:43:33,359 --> 01:43:38,079 I will keep coming back. I love a montage we're getting the gang together 1315 01:43:38,600 --> 01:43:42,039 and we're figuring out what's going on when you exposition dump on me, which 1316 01:43:42,039 --> 01:43:45,600 I also know as part of are on this character's role is to be the 1317 01:43:45,720 --> 01:43:49,000 exposition dumper, or like to have exposition be dumped through them. But no, 1318 01:43:49,119 --> 01:43:53,439 I love this movie. I'll keep watching it a bajillion times if nothing 1319 01:43:53,479 --> 01:43:57,279 else, for how beautiful Tom Hardy and Killing Murphy are in it. God 1320 01:43:57,319 --> 01:44:00,439 bless that they're real friends in real life and they just keep cranking out material 1321 01:44:00,560 --> 01:44:04,439 together. But that's my thoughts on that, Isaac, if you want to 1322 01:44:04,479 --> 01:44:12,439 go sure, I mean I love the movie obviously as well, specifically because 1323 01:44:12,479 --> 01:44:15,079 it is a dream movie. I love movies that have the dreaming elements. 1324 01:44:15,319 --> 01:44:18,359 I love this movie. I love Pepperrika, I love Doctors Strange. That's 1325 01:44:18,399 --> 01:44:24,640 why I dress up at like him at all the San Diego La comic cons 1326 01:44:24,680 --> 01:44:29,439 and Wonder cons. You'll see me. They're doing presentations on exactly these concepts 1327 01:44:29,520 --> 01:44:34,199 because they are great narrative tools for helping us discuss these kind of inner worlds 1328 01:44:34,239 --> 01:44:40,560 that we have. And it's always great to see Ken whatnot. Bay just 1329 01:44:40,760 --> 01:44:44,199 you know, do his thing and do a great job. And Elliott Yeah, 1330 01:44:44,439 --> 01:44:47,199 and Elliott Page did a fantastic job. And it works really well because 1331 01:44:47,239 --> 01:44:53,159 you have these amazing actors and these stunning visual effects that complement their stunning work. 1332 01:44:53,279 --> 01:44:57,319 So it's always great. It's just you know, let them cook. 1333 01:44:58,880 --> 01:45:01,159 Hannah. Yeah, I like this movie. It's fun to watch. I 1334 01:45:01,279 --> 01:45:08,279 feel like I see something different every time I watch it, And yeah, 1335 01:45:08,520 --> 01:45:11,720 I think that's pretty much it. Like I love a Christopher Nolan movie. 1336 01:45:11,840 --> 01:45:15,800 I think he's I think it's always kind of what Britney said, like, 1337 01:45:15,880 --> 01:45:18,960 it's always just interesting to see what comes out of his head and how he 1338 01:45:19,119 --> 01:45:24,039 puts it out. And I think this movie is so visually beautiful to watch 1339 01:45:24,680 --> 01:45:29,279 in general. So yeah, so I definitely feel like I'll watch this movie 1340 01:45:29,359 --> 01:45:32,439 more. I agree with all of you. I love this film. It 1341 01:45:32,560 --> 01:45:36,279 was instantly one of my favorites when it came out. I forget how much 1342 01:45:36,319 --> 01:45:40,399 I love it every time I watch it, and the more I watch it 1343 01:45:40,520 --> 01:45:45,800 as a therapist, the more I see and understand it and look at it 1344 01:45:45,520 --> 01:45:55,760 with eyes of kum like curiosity and also appreciation for the level of understanding Christopher 1345 01:45:55,800 --> 01:46:03,279 Nolan and his writing team and his visual effects and cinematographers have for understanding the 1346 01:46:03,399 --> 01:46:10,880 human condition at a deep psychological level that they can represent incredibly complex topics like 1347 01:46:11,439 --> 01:46:18,560 ifs visually and through dialogue. And then higher actors who have such chemistry and 1348 01:46:18,960 --> 01:46:27,319 ability to communicate these very specific ideas in very specific ways that I think I've 1349 01:46:27,359 --> 01:46:31,920 only seen him capture and I love watching every one of these and need to 1350 01:46:31,960 --> 01:46:36,399 get caught up because small child tends to prevent you from seeing things like Oppenheimer 1351 01:46:36,439 --> 01:46:39,720 when you want to go out, like, let's watch a movie about it. 1352 01:46:44,640 --> 01:46:47,840 I need to see. I wasn't really like repen Hard for Oppenheimer. 1353 01:46:48,079 --> 01:46:50,239 I was seeing it as proud of in barden Beheimer, and I was like, 1354 01:46:50,800 --> 01:46:55,720 WHOA, all right? Well one on that note, Isaac, if 1355 01:46:55,760 --> 01:47:00,600 you just want to let everyone know again where they can find you, you 1356 01:47:00,760 --> 01:47:04,560 can definitely find me on all the socials at All Mine Health or All Mind 1357 01:47:04,600 --> 01:47:12,960 Health one if somehow someone's already gotten that first one man. And you can 1358 01:47:13,039 --> 01:47:17,319 also go to my website online health dot com. If you're in California and 1359 01:47:17,520 --> 01:47:21,159 are in need of therapy, you can go there in particular and seek out 1360 01:47:21,880 --> 01:47:28,560 sessions. We're gonna be having new therapists on board soon, so other than 1361 01:47:28,640 --> 01:47:33,520 that, I'll see you at the cons at hopefully knock on wood La Comic 1362 01:47:33,560 --> 01:47:39,399 Con coming up, but of course to be determined. All right, well, 1363 01:47:39,560 --> 01:47:44,399 as always, you can find us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok 1364 01:47:44,439 --> 01:47:49,960 at Poprint Psychology, Twitter, slash x at Popcorn, Underscore psych for right 1365 01:47:50,039 --> 01:47:55,279 Now, Popprint Psychology at gmail dot com if you would like to email us 1366 01:47:55,279 --> 01:47:59,039 if you have any messages or requests for us. We also have a t 1367 01:47:59,239 --> 01:48:02,600 public and Patreon if anyone is interested in supporting us in any way, you 1368 01:48:02,640 --> 01:48:06,479 can get merch and you can also just get oh we have like privileges. 1369 01:48:06,520 --> 01:48:10,600 If you get fifty dollars or more and Patreon, you can pick the movie 1370 01:48:10,800 --> 01:48:13,880 that we talk about in an episode, so that's pretty cool in my opinion. 1371 01:48:14,800 --> 01:48:17,279 As always, you know, stay awake everybody, because we're coming for 1372 01:48:17,359 --> 01:48:18,199 you in your dreams