You're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio Network, the best in paranormal talk radio
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the Paranormal UK Radio Network. The instruments here are going crazy. I think
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Paranormal UK Radio Network, the UK's biggest paranormal network, and this is Paranormal
Dimensions with David Young. Hello and welcome to the show. I hope everyone's
he enjoyed the summer. I know it's too hot for some and not hot
enough for others here in the UK. It's just about the same as normal,
really, I have to say. Anyway, talking of summer, we
have an a normally that normally happens most of you in the summer, and
that's crop circles. And this brings beyond to my guest for this particular show.
His name is Gary King and he's a crop circle expert. He's been
on many shows and finally you've managed to get him on this show. We've
been waiting quite a while to do this, so I'm certainly looking forward to
it. So, without any further ado, i'd like to introduce mister Gary
King. Oh, Gary, Welcome to the show. A real pleasure to
be here, David. I've been waiting to come on your show and talk
to you for quite some time. We've been friends on Facebook for a number
of years, and I see that we've got a lot of ideas and views
in common, so I thought this would always be an interesting chat. Yeah,
we certainly have, but I know we've passed a few words better forwards.
Occasionally you're about different things. It's not really about crop circles, which
is what I hope to be talking a lot about on this particular show.
Because I know you're I could ask you use an expert. In fact,
you're the King, do you. Yeah. It's always a bit weird when
people say those things, but yeah, yeah, thank you. I mean
I've spent I suppose time served is the thing I've done. I've done a
fair bit of time around the crop circles, so I can say that,
yeah, I mean, it's something that's fascinated me, and I'm sure a
lot of people out there, and I'll just said, to your fear And
it's funny enough. As long as I've been doing this show, crop circles
haven't really cropped up, cropped up, cropped up that much on this particular
show. Sorry for a pun, I was also an unintended pun that was
but it hasn't sort of come up very much on this show, and it's
something that's sort of quite fascinated me. As I said, over the years,
I think one of the I think one of the earliest books I've ever
riddled it was The Circle Makers by Andrew Collins. I mean, I think
it goes back probably better Circular Evidence, Circular Evidence. I think there is
his first book, Circular Evidence. Yeah, yeah, because I know,
I think Andrew has kind of drifted away from I know, I know it's
still interesting him, I know, but he's gone on to more of the
ancient aliens type of stuff now. Um. Yeah, I think he was
one of the first person of people that I got sort of interested me in
the Corop's circle phenomenal accredited with bringing a lot of people into them, bringing
attention to it for sure. Yeah, I mean, we've got The funny
thing is we've got Andrew Collins and we've got college Andrews and Andrews, yeah,
which people do get confused about it sometimes. Are you talking about Colin
Andrews or Andrew Collins. I'm talking about Andrew Collins, Andrew Collins, right,
okay, but I'm also sort of about colored Andrews. Colin Andres wrote
the book Circular Evidence. But Andrew Collins, Yeah, he was involved for
a while and he's yeah, as you say, he's more now on sort
of. He runs tours with Hugh Newman to go back. Yeah, yeah,
those sorts of places. Yeah. I was in South Africa with a
pair of them back in twenty and fourteen. After Wow, yeah, yeah,
fantastic. You know, we had a great time. Went to Adams
Calendar and we went to we were Michael Tellinger and we went to went across
the boarder into the Zimbabway to see the so called giants footprint and wow,
it was a great confidence. Brian Forrester was there, John Martineau, you
know, really good, good vibe, really good. We stayed up late
till four in the morning, drinking single Morton talking and right. So you
would be a very good condition the next day that no, not really pretty
good. Well you're funny enough that Andrew Collins, you put Philly in me.
Yeah, there is about self twenty minutes away from me. Yeah,
so he's part of the South end Ufo paranormal group I'll go to as well.
Something that show up occasionally when he stop Brazil and ancient aliens and stuff
like that. Andrew is not calling and yeah, I know you are.
Yeah, that's a mean sly Gary. I mean, I mean, I've
got my beliefs in this, but there's a there's a lot. I think
there's a lot of controversy about cup circles, but a lot of people think
that they're all fake. I mean I don't think for one minute they're all
fake, but I do think that some of them are fake. Yeah,
I mean that's fair fair to say, isn't it. I think it's I
think it's silly to say that you think that they're all genuine and that people
haven't copied a kind of idea or gone out and how to go themselves or
try to trick people. I mean, there's been several several good examples along
the years where you can see people go out them. They've been well documented.
The competition that went on many years ago was well watched and publicized.
It of about ten hours with various groups making crop circles back in the about
ninety one ninety two something like that. And then obviously since then there's been
other examples where they've been made for television, they've been made for ancient aliens,
they've been made as sort of firm TV advertising campaigns. But they've hired
you know, the regular sort of guys who John Lundberg and Rob Irvin and
Matthew Williams and other people who've put themselves forward as circle makers, and they've
gone out and made things which which we can see, and then we can
cat we can compare those and on what those those demonstrations of shown us how
they do it, what working conditions they have worked under, etc. To
other examples of crop circles which which we know of appeared in just four or
five hours of darkness in midsummer, And we can compare the quality of the
lay of the crop and how damage to be. We can compare the size
of it compared to how long it takes a group of people to make another
one. We can we can add the difficulties of doing it in the dark
compared to doing it in daylight on a flat piece of ground compared. Yes,
something that always gets to me. You know, somebody's are so complicated,
and I can't imagine that people will make these so complicated patterns in the
dark. You know. Well, yeah, that's that's you know, that's
the thing. See, I like to consider myself to be quite a grounded
person. My dad was a bricklayer, and one of the things that attracted
me to Michael Glickman's work was that he was an architect and he understood about
building things and making things and designing and making things. You know, he's
an expert. He taught at university about it. He worked with Charles Eames,
the famous designer, So you know, you had you had a man
there who would say very grounded things like, look, you know, if
you do a building project, they never ever come in on time, and
they always go over budget. And yet we see thousands and thousands of examples
where people have allegedly gone into a field at in darkness and I'm under and
after about four or five hours have completely cleared the field, left no trace
whatsoever. And not made a mistake and brought the whole project that can be
hundreds of meters in in scale, and they brought it to fruition. And
he said to do that over and over and over again and and not not
make a mistake and not go over time or budget was in his view impossible.
And so I like those kind of grounded explanations, you know, they
make sense to me. Yeah, I mean also also I think to lectually
produce some of these very complicated ones. You can imagine being out and they've
got really bright lights and order to be able to see what they're doing overder
to shoot him anyway. Yeah, there's examples you can go on. If
you go on YouTube, you can watch a video of twelve students from the
University of Oregon, I think it was, who made a crop circle for
the Mozilla Firefox, and it's well documented. They took lots of photos.
They never made a crop circle before, so they had to work on what
everybody else did with boards and rope and think, right, okay, how
do we design this, how do we quadrant office circle? And how do
we work in day, night and nighttime? And you can watch the whole
thing and they had an aeroplane that flew over periodically and sort of come landed
and showed them the cameras so that they could see where they need to add
a bit or take a bit away or whatever. They had guys on ladders,
they worked all through the daylight. When nighttime came, they had torches
on their heads and radios that you could hear blasting that was, and forwards
to give instructions, and so you can see the whole process. That's fair
enough. And then there was another one recently with Ashe Beer, the Japanese
beer company. They spent a million bucks, million dollar campaign, well publicized,
hired a piece of land in Australia or New Zealand, lank got forty
professionals ground surveyors and land workers and drone operators and all these sorts of people,
and they worked for seven days from sunrise to sunset to make the replica
of the Ashaber label. And they didn't lay the crop down with boards and
rope. They cut it out with tractors and cutters and bushcutters. And they
use forty eight cans of spray paint. And these are professionals. And so
when you compare that too, you know, as I've said, the many
examples that we've seen that we know have shown up in the darkness of night
in about five hours, you have to ask yourself the question, how did
they do that? And whenever we've asked these people who go and make them
for public demonstrations to do a demonstration under the same conditions at darkness without being
detected with lights in the distance and so on, they never do. Yeah,
because also they're quite a well away from a lot of main roads and
things. Usually you don't like what often some times they are, yeah,
but quite often they're not. You know, the farm roads that you know
that run through at barns and various other places you know, there's there's usually
and there's usually you know, roads that are near enough that you would see
lights flashing around in the distance if in the middle of a field. You
know, these these areas are really really dark at night. They don't have
street lighting. The only street light the only lights you'll see it from car
headlights driving down lanes. And so if any one does switch a light on
torches or multiple people and you you were driving through that area at night,
you would see them. Yeah, sure, no problem. And of course
when you when you start out on a project like that, you really you're
committed to finishing it or you caught sort of just seeing all quit the farmers
covered all want to run away because that's right. Yeah, no one,
none of them ever have been caught by a farmer in mid Midia. I
mean, you know, there's been some there have been some questionable things where
some people have allegedly, you know, walked out of field where a crop
circle has appeared, and a farmer's happens to have caught them with a board
and they've got the smoking gun evidence. Oh he must have made because he's
got a board and he was just coming out of that field kind of deal.
It doesn't really prove you know that we you know, in order to
do that, we need to see video of or photosoraphicers and making it,
which which we don't often see. So um so that makes it, that
makes it more difficult. Yeah, yeah, I mean, can they actually
those very complicated bunds you know, you know the one I'll talk to.
Yeah, the really complicated on was can they really do that sort of thing
with boards and bits of rope and stop measures and got else. Michael used
to give some wonderful examples. Right, Like, so for let me let
me take I'll take two examples. Right. So if you if you're going
to make let's say you go on a flat piece of ground and you decide
that you're going to make ten circles that are ten feet wide in a straight
line. Um, and in between each circle there be about four or five
heads of wheat separating them, so you can see a clear separation of the
circles with a little bit of standing wheat. Right, You're gonna do it
a straight line to go. Okay, so we're gonna have a radius of
five feet each, right, So okay, let's the sticker steak in the
ground. Let's measure out five foot Let's make a circle. So now in
order to get to your next center, you need to go ten feet plus
a few inches for your center. Mark, mark out your center, and
then five foot radius and you make another circle. Right, So you do
that ten times, and you've got a line of circles that are ten feet
wide. You've got a little gap in between them. Okay, straightforward.
If you want to do that on undulating ground, on ground that isn't completely
flat, which most ground is it? Really? Which which most isn't ninety
I'd say over ninety percent of crop circles do not appear on flat ground.
Then you've got a little bit more of a challenge because you've got to compensate
for the topography, because when you look at a picture of a crop circle,
it looks like it's on the two dimensional postcard, but it actually isn't.
And so what's happened is that they're not really crop circles, they're crop
ovals, so that they look circular from the air to compensate for this topography
of the ground. So that makes it more difficult. Okay, so let's
add another level of complexity. On the eighth of August two thousand and eight,
as a result of something that happened to me on two thousand and seven,
seven seventy seven, there was a mass night watch that was organized on
the eighth of August two thousand and eight by me, and about two hundred
people turned up. We went to Napile, and we went to Milk Hill,
and some people went to Barbee cass and we staked out various fields to
do a night watch, and film crews were there and various other people were
there and at first light under Milk Hill, there was a huge formation of
an eighth, okay, and it was two big circles of circles, and
those circles are of varying sizes. So so the eight, like the circles
of the eight, the figure of an eight, were made up of individual
circles that all had gaps in between them, and those circles went from say
ten feet in diameter to sixty feet in diameter, and they progressed as they
went around. Okay, So in order to do that on flat ground,
you've got to find the center of the circle of circles, right, and
then you've got an arc out a line that goes that finds what the center
of the first circle is going to be. Let's say that's the one that's
ten feet diameter, and then you've got to stamp out that, and then
then you've got to work out the arc of degree to go out around the
next circle so that you can get to the center of the next circle.
It's really difficult to do is about a diagram, but the level of complexity
to just do that on a flat piece of ground will be a nightmare.
But this wasn't on a flat piece of ground it. It was on its
weird, undulating piece of ground and there it was everybody. There were two
hundred people there the night before and there was nothing in the field and at
first light just after four there. It was never appeared on any newspapers.
You search for it on YouTube, you're not going to find it. I've
got footage of it. I've got photographs of It's one of my favorite photographs.
I took them up in the helicops and took a photographs. Right,
it's amazing. Yeah, it sounds it. I'll go to SAT look up
some information you've got if you've got any photos Pactually, you can send them
to me. Sure, yeah, sure yeah, I'll put them on the
peril with the mensions plage so people can see what you're talking about. Yeah,
Michael Glickman did a blog about that, what we were talking about.
If you go to his website which is still running since he died, Michael
Glickman on Crop Circles. There is a blog on there which explains what I
was trying to explain there without diagrams, and it has diagrams. Can really
visually see what what that would take to make that formation you were going to
hazard to have a go at it yourself. Sort you didn't explain it quite
well, y'a could see what you were talking about. You mentioned you mentioned
Matthew Williams earlier on actually met him a couple of years ago because when he
came when I did a Colonel Holt conference in the Woodbridge, he was actually
coming. He actually helped me look with technical stuff. He's very very good
and I didn't actually realize that he was the men who I think he's one
been one of the only ones that have been um put in a courtroom over
the cups circles he has. Yeah, there there's a story to that which
is controversial, controversial, but not very many people know about the story.
Well, what happened was at the time there was there was there has obviously
been lots of feuds between researchers and circle makers. It's weird, it's been
this strange feud um, but there we are. We can talk about that
in length. And so at the time Matthew Williams was going around and claiming
or claiming that he knew people. He was sort of a spokesperson, he
said for various crop circle makers that wanted to remain anonymous, and but they
confided in him that oh yeah, they gave him the nod that we made
this one or whatever. And then sometimes he would own up and say,
you know, I made this one. I confessed it's me, And so
he confessed it is this sevenfold crop circle that came up. And Michael Glickman
had always said, oh, it's really difficult to make sevenfold crop circles.
If you divide a circle by seven, it's not a whole number of proportion
is fifty one point five once. It's actually quite difficult to divide a circle
in seven. So so Michael said, if sevenfold one appeared and anybody claims
it, you know they're lying. So of course Matthew Williams claimed it and
said, yeah, I'll make that. So matt Michael Glickman as a result
that went to the farmer and and harangued the farmer quite a lot, right,
and said, look, this guy's owned up to it, you've got
to prosecute him. And the farmer was like, oh god, you know,
but Michael sort of forced it quite a lot. So in the end,
you know, the farmer made a report, so the police were dutif
you've lanned down to to to investigate, because I suppose they put it down
as criminal damage or so, yeah, it's criminal damage. So so so
so as a result of the farmer ringing the police, the police went round
Matthew's house. He had a board with a rope. The rope attached to
it leaned against the door as they went in and they said, we've gotten
We were investigating a report that you made a crop circle. He put his
hands and said, yeah, I did, a governor, it was me
As as the story is, really there's no proof, like in terms of
him and his mates they're photographing him doing it, or no other corroborating evidence.
It's basically confession only. Yeah, because he's got I think is it
a black malt or something he's got on YouTube or I'm not sure if it
still runs anyway, but he does all these sorts of unusual paranormal stuff where
he goes to investigating different areas where you're not supposed to go and stuff like
that. That's well, all I can say is he helped me out an
awful lot for that conference and and I'm very very great will go for too.
So Matthew, if you're listening with your doubt think be well, I
haven't seen him, to be honest, I haven't been like two out in
the fields very much over the last year. I was living in Mexico for
a couple of years, and um, I live in Bristol. Now I
don't live. I don't live. It's a bit a bit different than it
makes you come on Bristol. Yeah, there is a bit of a massive
difference. Just so you're around in the sun Brea. Yeah, that's it.
Yeah, that's it. Yeah, people can see it from starshing and
Maria. You put up quite an argument for faking um cup circles, but
obviously you believe that a lot of them are real as well. I do,
Yes, I do, now do you please? They are aliens.
I always try and like, you know, say that I believe to be
the truthfully, and that is that I don't know and nobody knows. Um.
I believe there's historical evidence from some of the literature I've read, but
mostly by a man called Jeffrey Kreipol, who's who's written several books. He's
sort of he's an academic who studied sort of mysticism and away mysticisms. Paranormal
things have happened to people. Over the years, he's written some really good
books and he makes the case that you know, which isn't a new argument,
but it's it's one where it says, there is a let's say,
um um, a completely pliable intelligence, right that can manifest itself to us
in a way that you know, we we can we can relate to.
So back in the day, it would be fairies. And because people believe
there were fairies down the garden in Mexico, tuper carbre. You know,
this thing could manifest itself, is tuper carbure, and you know, mutulate
cattle and do other sorts of stuff. And then and then, you know,
technological things have been in our world for quite a while, over one
hundred odd years. It's Vic's or in sort of you know, sentence on
the road down to cite more scientific things and so and so science and aliens
and those sorts of things being in vogue and obviously now being admitted by the
US government fine around so that they're no longer the stigma that's long been attached
to even talking about these things is slowly falling off. It's still there,
but with official kind of acknowledgement those things are happening, So it's easier now
to say, well, yeah, i'll put my I'll put my flag post
in the alien thing, because look, you know, the government is saying
over there that they really exist, but we don't know, and I don't
know. And to be honest, I've always said, if if you,
if you had if you woke up in the morning, you went downstairs and
there was this mysterious sort of note put through your door and it had this
symbol on it and picked out for what the hell is that? And you
walked out in your street and all your neighbors came out and said, we've
got one of these things and you say, oh, I've got one of
them as well. Ye know, what is it? I don't know.
We'll put it for our door. I don't know. Let's put some cameras
up and let's see if we can catch the bugger. So so you do
that for forty years, and over forty years you can't catch anybody doing it.
There's a few people say, yeah, they won't kind of prove it.
And you you know, you've got cameras up, and you've got people
out watching, you've got set in the other and these crimes are being committed
in the same place every year forty years, no one can catch him.
And then and then eventually someone says, you know, rather than trying to
find out who the postman is, why don't we try and figure out what
all these symbols mean, because obviously the postman wants to remain anonymous. Really
if you think it's aliens or God, actually you know what I mean.
So so so then I started payment paying more attention to what the geometry was
about, what the symbols were about, or what, you know, what
the context of it could be about, Like with regards to Wiltshire and farming.
Why Wiltshire, why is it? Why are they're close to Stoning?
And what's the connection there and so on? And so that's when the world
open up to me. Then that that there was so much more depth to
this subject as soon as you peel back that layer of who's making them?
Yeah, um yeah, I can guess that would that would? I mean,
I'm trying, you know, I'm just trying to picture a street with
everyone getting bits of paper with designs on them, and but I can see
what you where you're getting at. I mean, to be honest, A
lot of those designs as well. Do you think that they're they're kind of
the same designs that we as we often see on things like ancient aliens,
a lot of the planes of NASCAR and stuff like that. Somehow, Yeah,
I mean, I've I've kind of like I codified the crop circles sub
several years back into sort of roughly five categories. There's there's the geometry,
obviously predominantly geometry geometrical formations, but then next to that is religious and philosophical
symbols. So we've seen multiple account multiple instances of a crosses like Christ's cross,
we've seen We've seen the Jewish Minora, the Tree of Life. We've
seen the Yin Yang, the wings of Horrors. We've seen a bunch of
stuff which you know, points to symbols that man has created, and they're
symbols that we've created in relation to trying to fathom out the mysteries of cosmology
or the universe or the meaning of life or stuff like that. You know,
religion, is there a creator, the symbols that we've made about that.
The third categories sort of animals and insects. We've had lots of snails
or birds and ants and spiders and butterflies and moths and dragonflies and various things
like that. Right, they're very clear they're insects and birds and fish.
So so that that category then the fourth categories astronomical symbols. So we've had,
like, you know, in two thousand and twelve, we had a
formation in Avery Trust Low Avery manner where all the rings of where the planets
were going to be in relation to each other were marked out in a field
on the twenty first of December two thousand and twelve. So it was like
showing us a reminded us that that date, you know that everybody had prophesized,
meant something in relation to where the planets are going to be in relation
to each other. There's been snapshots of where planets were in relation to each
other on Earth on a particular day. I think it was the twenty six
June ninety six or something like that, where it was a crop circle that
was then, and so Professor Nick Cholestrom commented that someone would have to have
quite a lot of knowledge about you know, Perry Helian and various other with
astronomy to have been able to do that. So that's the astronomical fourth category
and the fifth categories abstract, there were just these kind of crescents that are
connected to lines and dots and um. And then and then in addition to
those sort of five broad categories, there are and there was more of these
in the early days where you have, you know, something that looks like
five circles in the field, like to one circle in the middle that's slightly
bigger like twenty foot radius or diameter. And then and then there were four
satellite circles they're equal distant from that central circle that maybe are ten foot in
diameter or five foot in diameter on the outside of them, like five spots
on a dice. And then when you when you sort of like study those
and that was studied by some really clever people back in the day, John
Martineau and Michael Glipman, John Michelle, they found hidden fivefold and eightfold geometry
within that. And so there's plenty of diagrams that people can see. And
when you and when you studied that, you realize that that those those forms
that are hidden with in those crop circles that are given you this this hidden
fivefold geometry eight folgeometry. For example, is also hidden within nature. So
you find that most flowers a fivefold and then that the central circle where the
pollen is is of a certain ratio to the circumference of where the ends of
the leaves or petals would be. And you you know, you cut into
an apple and you see this perfect pentagram with the five seeds and is everywhere,
you know, and so and so the crop circles have been sort of
showing us what's hidden in nature because they've been hiding them inside crop circles.
That's been really interesting, Yeah, because I mean also, I mean they've
been seen over hundreds of years as well, the crop circles as I as
I understand it, and also in every country in the world. Also,
yeah, there's certainly reports that go back to at least sixteen hundred with your
famous and the now famous copper plate engraving of the mowing devil. But there,
you know, I did. I wrote sixteen episodes of crop Circles,
a series of sixteen episodes for GUY and TV in Spanish when I was in
Mexico, and one of them was on the history and I took a lot
of information from Terry Wilson's book on the history of crop circles that was really
good that you can get on Amazon is really inexpensive and he's done some great
work. But there's a cave painting in Australia that goes back forty thousand years
that really does seem to have a crop circle depicted them on it. So
who knows. I mean, seventy five percent of cave paintings that go back
forty five thousand years, they're all seventy five percent of them contain circles,
squares, spirals, triangles. They're geometrical in nature, so it seems to
have been something that human beings have been preoccupied with geometry for quite some time.
Yeah, certainly, I'll tell you what cross one. When you were
talking about the people that do the fake ones, Yeah, we've got I've
got off to a subject a little bit of But they t want to prove
that there are a radius or they trying to disprove it, you know,
in your opinion, I mean I was asked, I was asked this question.
I did a podcast recently for some port Portuguese researchers. I did a
conference in Brazil last November and mount with his UFO researcher there called I've forgotten
his name. Sorry at the moment he has gone out of my mind and
he are inviting me onto his podcast. So I went on there and one
of the one of the posts asked me about the report that various people who
make crop circles have reported that they have paranormal experiences when they're doing it.
This is well documented of people saying this. They say that they sometimes get
mysteriously a cloud or come over and cover them up and hide them in a
field when people are on the hill so that they can't see them. They
say that they get possessed with kind of the inspiration and the desire I popping
in their head from some other intelligence that then drives them out into the field
and compulsively makes them doing it, sometimes eleven o'clock at night and they just
get dragged dragged down there. They say that they get possessed with super super
normal abilities that can make them work very fast, because I mean, you
know, if you're walking around and you're lifting, you're on one leg essentially
right. And often crop circles appear in the pouring rain and the fields you
know they're on clay, especially in barns. So when you walk into those
crop circles within within a couple of steps, you know your feet are sort
of wigh in two pounds five poundshoots, So yeah, you really have Yeah.
So so so if you know, if you're doing it under those conditions,
and as I say, the fields undulating, you're going up and down
hills to make the stamp out miss crop, you know, essentially you're on
one leg. So you know, if I was a butcher, i'd be
I'd be certainly going after the left leg of these guys. You'd go around
doing these things for five or six hours and stomping down crop and moving forward
on leg all the time. Yeah. But so so you go, Okay,
then, so these guys that you know, they're having paranormal experiences and
they're getting possessed by other intelligences, possibly ailing intelligences to give them the inspiration
or to give them the power to go out and make them right. So
then so then if that's the case, if I go on there and say,
oh, I was sitting on a hill with my girlfriend and this other
guy who met We've had a bunch of cameras aimed at this field, and
when we got there, when he got there at eleven o'clock at night,
there was nothing in the field. And then about three o'clock in the morning,
we just saw a flash of light and we didn't really know what it
was. And then we looked through the camp lens of the camera and there
was this thousand foot crop circle in front of us with one hundred and fifty
circles in it. Right, and it's still dark and we haven't seen any
torches, and we haven't heard anybody because we've been there all night, and
the cameras been aimed at the field today really light sensitive cameras haven't picked up
any lights in the field or whatever. So so we say, oh,
something paranormal at Well, then then these same guys who claim they make attack
us or a tack me right and say that I'm a fraud and I had
it made Andy go like, well, hang on them, and that's a
bit We're why can't I have a paranormal experience. It doesn't involve it be
possessing you to go out and make it. Yeah, what if the aliens
or is have to work through you? Can't they just flash a light and
they got the you know, the magic railway, So you'd think they would
say, yeah, well, less stuff, weird stuffs happened to us when
we've been out making them. God, they can do all sorts, whoever
it is who's doing that, but they don't. They really viciously and have
done for years of a campaign of attacking us and saying that they only go
out and do it to reveal to these other people that we're just fraudsters making
money on books and this and the other. But I've never written them.
I've never written a book in twenty five years or maybe all too. So
that confuses me, to be honest with you, David, that they sink
to play on. I don't know what their motivation is. When Michael used
to ask them years ago, they used to say, I can't work exactly.
They quite know it's for the It was for the for the hell of
it, just to just to just to fool people, just to deceive people.
They've got a thrill out of it. Yeah, because that doesn't make
sense to me to go to go through all that work just to say,
yeah, just to prove one way or the other that to that they're existing,
but of course you've actually manufactured their existence. Yeah, you're going out
to prove that they don't exist because you manufactured the fact that they don't exist.
It don't make It's too much old work for me to get my head
rails. It is too much of hard work. And and and you know
when you when as I say, when you and the weird thing is is
that is that since the campaign of oh it's all man made, you can
all go back to what happened with Doug and Dave back in the early nineties.
It's amazing how much that campaign it's stuck in people's minds because when you
bring up the subjects of crops it to people. Now they still got ourselves
two old guys, isn't it. Yeah, they died long to logoes.
It's amazing. And you notice from what you know in other media things,
you know, people's heads getting planted with you know, if you take two
doses of the vaccine, let's say, let's be controversial, then then this
is going to happen. Then they go, well, it's not. You
know, it will stop your dying, but they won't really happen. And
see you say that, and so if you question that, then someone says
you can't question that. Or you know, if you bring up something about
Ukraine or whatever, and go, well, you know, we'll be in
there and you can't question anything. Can you question anything? Yes? So
when I questioned that you know that these guys are making these crops, they
go, well, look, you know when we see people making them,
let's had a lot longer. And when we go inside them, all the
crops smashed up and damage. But I've been in loads of others and there's
no damage. And and they go, you can't question that, you know,
if you say so, it's weird. I mean also, were sort
of about those two guys. I mean they got around the world quite often,
you know, because they're all over the world, not just in look
Whoopshire or whatever. Are they you know? Well they were, they were
enough I suppose to sort of. Yeah. I mean they were questioned and
when they were questioned by people, you know that people that have been around
for a few years when they questioned and quickly realized that these two old guys
didn't really know what they were talking about. I mean, there was a
there was a meeting once with Julian Richardson. I wasn't president, Michael and
several others were, and I know that he was questioned about you know,
pie are squared and things that you would need to know if you create to
ask me. Yeah, you know, it was the same for me when
I first got into this. You know, maths everyone, that's another reason
people run away from cross and it was like, oh, no, good
of maths. But luckily it's not that difficult. You know, as long
as you can count to about thirteen, you can really understand all the things
that going on with the Crossows. Is quite interesting that on that simplistic,
basic basis. But anyway, so yeah, some of these people, when
when held up to scrutiny, they really weren't able to describe or answer some
of the questions as to how they pulled it off. You know, yeah,
you're very interesting. Their motives I just don't quite understand at all.
But there was a recent a podcast he was He's a YouTube show. I
posted it actually on my page. It's m CIA and crop circle cover Ups
or something it's called. It's got about about two and a half million views.
This guy pulled up ancient in old footage with Colin Andrews Days and all
the rest of it and went through this story and some of it's you know,
some of it's questionable for sure, but there's a lot of truth to
some of the stuff as well of of what he puts out. So it's
well worth people watching it and send you a link to it if you want
to put it, absolutely, because I'll put it on the on the page.
Yeah, definitely. That's something that I think has happening as well.
I think that there are powers above, you know, wherever you' all the
feet above is actually don't want the truth coming out, so they actually cover
it up. They cover up the real ones with fake buns. Yeah,
yeah, I mean this is this has been my view. I mean I
was lucky when I got into the crop circles. I was really there was
a bunch of things that were happening to me at the time in life changes
and stuff. And I met this guy who sort of brought me to the
concert, who was an American and and he was very controversial guy, you
know back in the back in America right through the Vietnam War and political and
stuff like this, and he knew a lot about how how you know,
the dark side of government work really with secret services and cover ups about various
things and false propaganda campaigns and psyops and various other things, things that really
weren't in my world at that time. And when he used to talk to
him and be about me in the early days, I was like, this
is all this is like a movie, you know. And then gradually as
you as you you know, spend the years and get to where we are
now, where a lot more people are realizing that the news that they watch
is really manufactured high no corporate interests, and the government really don't hold a
power anymore, and that corporate power and its agenda rules, and and and
then it makes a lot more sense then to keep things that would all distract
us away from, you know, the status quo that we're all in really,
which is on the rat race, and and not looking at bigger questions
as to you know, what is the what is the real purpose of human
life? And what are we supposed to be just making the stuff to sell
each other stuff so that we can borrow more money and buy more things.
You know. That's right. I think that's becoming more and more obvious as
well with the kids, with all the I mean, we used to hear
Donald Trump talking about fake news, but it's actually very right, isn't it.
Because a lot of his fake, A lot of the news I think
we get on the news is fake anyway. Well, yeah, I mean
there's so many examples. Also distract your way from something else. Yeah,
exactly. I mean, you know, I studied the news and have done
for a very long time, and watch trends and tune into people that are
leaving the mainstream now more and more because they just can't deal with being corporate
sort of script readers. Anyway. Yeah, basically pull you. So it's
in the line exactly. I mean Tucker Carlson's interview recently with Russell Brand,
and I find Russell Brand can be a bit testing, you know, with
with something you know, rather than rather than as I've always tried to do,
not talk about the person. It's about what they're saying. And listening
to what Tucker Carlson has said about how he was treated at Fox and how
Fox operates and how you know he was talking about January six, wasn't in
how and there were more agents in the crowd of the protesting people, and
that the shaman guy. You know, there's CCTV that the shaman guy was
being let in by the cops. They were trysolutely I mean, obviously plenty
of that for they would just be letting there. We've got they were being
guided. They're the corridors. So I'm working in I'm working in a news
studio in Mexico City, right for a famous journalist who used to be the
anchor man for sixty minutes in Mexico. Right for the biggest TV company in
Mexico, covers one hundred and thirty million people, TBS Techer. Right,
sorry, Televisa, we worked for them, but you know he was for
telling TBS Techer. So this was all going on when I lived in Mexico,
right, And as soon as that thing happened, I said to him,
there's something fish a year this is this is not right. There's no
police response, you know that. I said, this needs looking into,
and he immediately this season journalist jumped on me as this conspiracy theorist without a
share of evidence, just you know, this knee jet reaction, which I
was so shocked by. And then not within forty eight hours, as things
started to underrave a little, he begrudgingly said, yeah, I think you
might be might be right there. It's strange, isn't it. Yeah,
I mean there was there was a lot of things that weren't right about all
that, and then they've tried to sort of basically I think that the criminals
are running the running the show. You know. Basically, No, we
can't really get its gains to too much politics on this show. That's not
what it's about. But but it is in terms of that, you see,
my journey began with if it's see if if the crop circles are being
covered up, and that's the sort of subject that set us off here,
then that means there is there are agencies that that that through propaganda or are
useful used to running propaganda campaigns, which you know exist in you know the
psyops that was running Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland people were the most watched people
ever even if they brought an extra pint in milk, they was questioned,
right, you know, and that's that's the British Secret Service. So so
you know, we're not we're not unaccustomed to and nor the Americans going into
other countries and running propaganda campaigns through NGOs and overthrowing leaders that aren't favorable to
them and these sorts of things. So running propaganda campaigns for their own agendas,
whether their corporate government or both is something that these people are experts set.
So when once you open that can of worms with the crop circles and
possibly UFOs, then it opens up with every everything else, doesn't it.
Yeah? Absolutely, Well have you have you seen any UFOs of your own?
Yeah? Once, me and my son. It was in the early
days. Actually there's world have been nineteen ninety eight or nine, nineteen ninety
nine. I think we were a very small festival, a rainbow festival in
a beltein in chapter Mellet and my son would have been Godly would have been
ten then. And we walked across this field as in daylight, and both
of our both of us had our heads turned as if something made us look
up in the sky, and we saw this sort of orange light that beamed
out. I saw this black dot that's sort of against the blue sky that
projected out this orange light and then seemed to ride it away, and we
both me and my son looked at each other and went okay, walked on.
And then as it got dark that evening, we were standing at sort
of a tent there as a friend of mine, mark Beer as well,
and three of us watched this huge light not very high above the trees that
were in front of us, pulsating bright light go past us slowly, and
we were just all transfixed on it, and we watched it go past us
from right to left, and as it started to go towards the left side
of us, we all three of us turned our heads over sort of almost
one hundred and eighty degrees in the other direction, and from the distance saw
this other white light shooting forward an incredible rate into and so it was off
to the left right, so it was coming from the left behind us,
and it was going off straight across off into the distance. So that as
we turned our heads back towards the right and caught the other one that we've
just seen pulsating, that thing then took off and met the other one in
the sky and crossed at an enormous speed, like unbelievably. Yeah, and
so I'll never forget my friend Mark going I believe now, Well, don't
see it. You don't sort of just become actually, you don't just be
a believer. You become a knower, don't you. Yeah. We world
changes then, and it's and it's about them whether or not you can go,
you know, you go off and tell somebody, and then you know,
you get that knee jet reaction of oh you're what drugs are you know?
Well we're all there. Yeah, yeah, you know. So that's
that's that old chestnut. And then and if you can, if you can
go no, I don't care what you say, and I don't need to
prove it to you. I saw it, and I'm happy to accept that
there's something up there that I don't know what it was. It was a
bright light. It went so fast that it is no way it was one
of ours. Um. I don't know if there's an alien involved in it.
I don't know. If it was just a big bunch of light that
means something else. I don't know, but there Yeah, well I'm going
down to the interdimensional route as well with some of these things as well.
I think a little bit is interdimensional. Um. I mean, I can't
prove it any think it's just just a theory it so you know that's and
it's not just my theory. No. But that's one of the great things,
isn't it. I Mean, when when you get to a point it's
like it's like this, right when when people say to me, you know,
talk about man made and and you say, yeah, yeah, they
know it's man made ones, of course, but there's also some ones that,
you know, we think that it would be very difficult, and there's
some real questions around to the quality of the lae and you know why,
witnesses at the time or whatever. And so let's lay out the seven thousand
plus photographs of crop circles on our hypothetical table in front of us, and
let's agree together which ones we think are clearly manmade and push those over to
the left, and let's look at the rest of them and say, Okay,
what once are we not sure about? Could be this could be that
you go right, let's put them in a minute. And these ones then
that we're left with, we're really sure that there's an absolute bloody mystery with
them. And it doesn't matter if that's ten percent or twenty percent or thirty
percent right, it doesn't matter if they exist. And we agree that they
exist, and we say, okay, we don't need to talk about the
man made ones anymore. We don't need to talk about the ones that we've
got sort of doubts about anymore. Let's talk about and speculate on what all
that's about and what could be making it. And once you do that,
and you say, you know, we can we can come up with into
ideas of interdimensionality, and we can come up with all these different things.
And it's there. Used to be a caffee. I don't know if you
know this right. There was a caffee that was opposite Oxford University in the
early days, like sixteen hundreds, I can't in the name of it now's
famous. And all these people that are academics that were studying all these different
disciplines would go in this cafe and they all have all these crazy ideas.
And because there was this hotspots of all these ideas flying around and all these
theories, good ideas popped out, ones that change the world and so and
so, you know, when we speculate about about the possibilities of life,
about the possibilities of the world we live in, about what could be there
that someone else doesn't want us to believe might be there, we can come
up with things that we've never dreamed that we have come up with in collaboration
with other people who are also spitballing the ideas. Yeah, I mean,
actually that we're in my mind going to think that we're the other, we're
the only living human beings or whatever, or this planet, and there's nothing
else out there is to me, it's just ridiculous anyway. You know that
is ridiculous. But I tell you what else is ridiculous, right, it's
ridiculous. It's like when I first heard the example of the chances of us
here now, David having this conversation, right, of human life that could
that could be here, and it's got the intelligence and the ability to be
able to ask questions about life. That's the difference with human beings, isn't
it. We've got language and we can use these words to ask questions about
ourselves and reality and meaning of life. Right. When you go, right,
what's the chances of that happening? And you hear examples like you need
a monkey to sit down at a typewriter and knock out the work for Shakespeare
by accident, or you need to put a bomb in a scrap metal yard
and blow it up, and when you clear away all the dust and the
rubble of bowing seven four seven, throwing itself together, and you're just getting
it pressed the button and fly off. When you look at the odds of
that then that we're here having this conversation the biological life because like the Big
Bang, all the parameters for like the speed of light and the weak nuclear
force and a strong nuclear force, and all these things which which are constants
in the universe as far as we know them. It's like it's like having
an amplifier with thirty two dials on it. Right, They've got all these
little microadjustments, and all of those little dials were perfectly tuned at the point
of the Big Bang thirteen and a half billion years ago, so that biological
life can exist here today. When you when physicists began to realize this back
in the nineteen seventies, that that that like that all the parameters for life
to exist are so finely tuned that it's that it's impossible as putting a bomb
in the scrap yard. Then you have to say, yeah, we're not
the only ones, but we are bloody special. Absolutely. Also, you
mentioned the Big Bang. There are arguments now that you know against the Big
Bang even, isn't there I mean when you think about the Big Bang,
I mean what was before the Big Bang? Yeah, I mean, you
know, it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't answer lots upon where do the energy
come from? How do you make something out of nothing? You know,
we've still got this huge paradox of a problem. But even though it's that,
it's it's a it's a properly flawed model when you actually look at you
know, the constants that we have got, for example, and the way
that the planets are set up to you know, like we're the third rock
from the Sun and we're just just far enough away that you know, the
Moon just happens to be exactly the right size and exactly right distance to cover
up the Sun that's you know, so much further away in a perfect eclipse,
and all of the ratios and proportions of the planets and the way they
work around, and so that biological life can exist in the parameters for that,
that's incredible. That's that's miraculous in itself, and so you can you
can model that. Then back to this theoretical Big Bang, because we know
that the elements that exist of carbon and oxygen are actually how they formed in
clusters of stars as big explosions and suns go super and over, and we
know that's happening out there in space so you can model all that and say,
well, you know, the chances of life exist in then as best
as we know it in this flawed Big Bang theory are incredible. Yeah,
I mean, it's got to be civilizations that are probably a million years more
advanced than we are, you know, so there's no reason why they couldn't
be flying all around the universe and visiting us see things. I mean,
they used to say the problem is the Fermi paradox and that you know,
if there are all these these propensities for life, then why aren't there UFOs
flying around everywhere? Well, recent news seems to be telling us that this.
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of the evidence shows that
they've got some sort of cloakey mechanisms because from a lot of what I hear,
what I hear they're all all around the sort of time. You know,
whether that's true or because I haven't actually seen the physical disappeared and all
that myself, although I have seen UFOs years ago. Um, you know,
it seems that they can move so fast and they look like they disappear,
and some people do actually catch things, don't know, you look accidentally
sometimes And I think that's what happens, they get caught accidentally. But like
you say, like the the US, unless there's there's there's another piece of
false information coming out. But the US government seems to think that there are
UFOs that are now um being being admitted to basically, and but the media
still jokes about it, even though the governments are admitting to it. Yeah,
it's a funny. It's a funny. It's a funny whole world of
disclosure, isn't it. I mean, Nick Pope said years ago, I
was at a conference in Mexico City and two thousand and ten, it wasn't
like that. Nick Pope was one of the speakers, and we were chatting
in the bar afterwards, and and and I remember him saying, you know,
saying, like, you know, his disclosure coming, And he said
yeah, And he said this in TV interviews are he said, yeah,
it's not the big disclosure with a capital D be with it, you know,
a low yeah, very slow, cruel cruel. Yeah. I've actually
settled a bowl with Nicko, had the same conversation. You know, he's
going to drinking chat. Yeah, that's it's funny. After a couple of
Yearsny, years and years, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was.
It was funny because I was sitting outside. I basically spent the whole week
sitting outside very vun Danny and that's right, Eric and Nick Pope and myself
and Mike Burrow. Well yeah, well that was the same company I was
it, well, Mike Barrow, but Vandan and Nick Pope were at the
same conference. Yea and so and the and Eric Vandannic and hitting off.
So I just sat outside of him and he was arguing with a couple of
mine archaeologists. It was very funny anyway, Yeah, so Nick Pope,
Nick Pope said that, and so you know, I watched, like,
do you know Chrissy Newton. She runs she runs a podcast on the debrief.
She's she's um, she runs a PR agency in Toronto, and she's
been very active on sort of UFO stuff, no sales, familiar, well
don't actually know to what she So when this David Gross thing cain't got released,
didn't released, he disappeared in the Yeah, so this is where this
is where things are starting to get a bit weird in it because you've got
you've got this all these counter narratives going on, You've got you've got Stephen
Greer who says, you know, the government are about to put a false
flag operation onto us and say that we're being invaded by alien, right,
but it's really their tech that they've back engineered from all these down craft.
And then you've got like Bobblazar that came out years before saying, you know,
I've worked in their fish one floats of people not believing him. He
passes a live detective test, nobody believes and nobody believes him, and then
all of a sudden, a lot of the things he said over the years
a sort of starts coming out, like element one on five or um and
so and so. Now this David Gros comes forward and and it gets really
it's like, for example, right, they let me give you an example,
Right, I watched the podcast and it's announced, Right, why did
they Why did they release this well changing information through for for a podcast called
The Debrief that's got a couple of hundred thousand subscribers. Right, it's a
good podcast, but you know it's not these are Washington Post journalists. Yeah,
it's not earth shattering sort of figure. I mean, if you've got
a guy who's coming out from the government and saying, look, I know,
we've got alien bodies, we've got down craft, we've got this at
the other and he's Washington Post journalists who've worked on the release of the pens
Cone papers back in all of a sudden, Leslie King and that and say
what's it. Ralph Blumenthal will say, um, oh, you know,
we're going to release this massive piece of information through Chrissy Newton on the debrief.
Right, Okay, So I watch it and Chrissy announces it as this
highly classified information that this man's come forward with and he's going to testify to
Congress. Um. So then the interview proceeds and they say, you know,
she Chrissy asks why why they're releasing this information now, and they say,
well, they had to to protect him because since he filled out the
whistleblower forms, you know, he's he's been attacked and he's been threatened,
and you know he's in danger. And every good journalist knows that the best
way to protect the sources to get the information out there as quickly as possible.
This is what both Leslie Keene and J. H. Blom was saying
an interview, right, So, okay, right, So so you had
to get this info out, and now he's going to go to Congress and
he's going to tell them star behind closed doors. But okay, it's told
you know, Rosque Coulthard, all this information about what he's what he knows,
he's seen, and so of what you know, he knows people who've
seen it, and this on the other. So then so then the next
question is you know, so so well what about this information? Isn't he
going to get into trouble you know now because he's released this information and it's
highly classified. And Ralph bloom And said goes, well, no, no,
he's you know, everything he's released is unclassified. M m's classified.
Sego hanging a minute, I thought it was classified, and he's given us
this big revelation and he's going, no, no, no, he's classified.
So only well, why was he in danger? Then? Why was
he being threatened? Yeah? Yeah, Well it doesn't make sense, does
it? And it doesn't make sense to me, and and and my mind
works like that, I go, well, wait, how can you say
that? You know? Yeah? I mean also it makes you think,
I mean, we mentioned things about fake news a little while ago. Is
it trying to distract you away from something else, because we'll know that Biden
and he's um, yeah, presidency is in a lot of trouble with different
things, and you and certain things haven't come out on the mainstream media.
Well, so that you and I probably know about Well yeah, I think
I think you know largely mainstream you know is calling it mainstream media is changing,
isn't it? I mean Tucker Carlson's viewing figures. Oh, have you
seen the data? I mean, like you know CNN. I mean,
I mean, just as an example, right, I watched I watched a
video clip yesterday. You know, this new film that that Mel Gibson's brought
out, a Search for Freedom with Jim see that right, So so seeing
any attacking it right as woke and and and and Q and non conspiracy numbers
and all of this right people on qu and seeing and attacking it right,
And you go, right, what and so and so you look at their
viewing figures and they've got like three hundred and seventy nine to five hundred thousand
people on a Friday night. M you look at Fox News one point four
is one point seven million they can best get on, you know. And
then Tucker Carlson launches his show on Twitter and gets eighty two millions. Yeah,
it tells you something, doesn't it. Well. Yeah, and so
Joe Rogan, you know, like CNN truck to attacking for taking horse medication.
I've met him, which is this Nobel Prize winning amazing drug that's helped
so many people in Africa and stuff which they wouldn't let people have so they
didn't want people to cost pennies. And anybody said that, oh, you're
being a conspiracy fist, while they would quickly behind closed doors trying to create
another version of it with a dislightly different moleocle that they that's the same reason
they with true Hodge, the chloroquin should have been available for many yor for
what twenty yards years to treat malaria. All of a sudden that they're with
trew it's saying how dangerous it was, and in actual facts it had been
proven to work. Yeah. And then you got the doctor that's this famous
guy, and the other guy that puts the white coat on with a bow
tie. What's his name, Hortez. Oh you've got Fouchi. Fouchi's the
band that so bouches. Yeah, well Fouchi was sort of like Hortez is
guru, wouldn't he? Hortez would come on sitting in, you know,
and he was a tag. When Trump was in power, he was attacking
the vaccine, saying, oh no, there's no proven of being they're dangerous.
I can't be having all that. And then as soon as Biden got
in, he said, oh yeah, you've got you know, you've got
to have the vaccine. It's um, it's going to be great. And
there's this wonderful parody that someone's done on YouTube that shows him saying two vaccines
and you're clear, you're sorted. Then he goes three four five bilateral one
and you know, it's madness. And yeah, I mean, I've got
to say, I'm sory's for anyone out there that sort of had the vaccines
and things or you probably have been mentioned this before the show. Don't really
like to get too deeply into it, but I think you're probably all realizing
now that you were probably lied to um, you know the fact that it
wasn't doing what it was supposed to be doing anyway, and apparently it's just
doing it's doing other things as well as some people GB News Neil Oliver on
gb News day before yesterday, they had a GP on there and they had
Andrew Brigg and the MP that's you know been yeah, you know, yeah,
and and and they reported that it's now come out that the forty four
thousand people that they were supposed to attested the vaccine or and got a different
vaccine and the one that was actually rolled out so that it wasn't actually tested.
Yeah. Well that's important stuff, isn't it. That shouldn't be absolutely
yeah, I mean there's also I've heard that there were placebos which nobody were
told about either. Yeah. Really and when you when you think about it,
if there were placebos which nobody was talking was was told about, they're
supposed to be a deadly virus stone around. So if you were told you
we're going to get a vaccine that was going to help you or save your
life and give it a placebo, that's full, isn't it is? Of
course it is the whole things for it. And it seems to me that
you know, with the with the party gate revelations, that these people knew
something we didn't. Of course, if you they knew, it wasn't dangerous,
Yeah, exactly, it was. I mean i think you and I
know it was just another It was a it was a bad flu, but
the same as the same as we've always said. Different. I think.
No, I do think that there was a virus. I'm not saying it
wasn't. It did obviously did take out vulnerable people. You should have been
protected. Um, yeah, it's it's the whole thing. Really. I
think I think the only good thing that's come out of it, which is
you know, even really difficult to say, is that I think it's woke
people up. Yeah. I don't like to use that phrase because you know,
I think I think it's deeper than that. But it had to make
people are war aware that the people that are putting themselves forward as people that
are there to help us aren't actually there to do that much. Yeah.
Well, as far as oh no, never, I mean, I know,
we say there was one, but it would never have been proven to
being isolated. Well, I'm not sure about that. I know that they're
you know, they've found they found different strains of it, and it seemed
from day one it seemed crazy to me to be blaming a fish market when
there happened to be laboratory hundred meters down the road that happened to be testing
this virus exactly. Yeah, I'd like you say, I do know that
they were playing around with viruses and stuff. Yeah, and I think the
CIA, we're involved in it, and fair to you, of course,
and I think Obama was involved as well. It seems to me that there
were some very definitely some nefarious people. I mean, this is this is
the sort of stuff that you know governments do in secret, isn't it.
I Mean I've often said, you know, all right, we can we
can say we live in a democracy and there's certain things that need to be
kept secret from us. But as soon as practicable, those those secrets,
because these people work for us in government allegedly, they should be telling what
they are. And when they don't, when you get like Biden sealing the
JFKA papers for another sixty five years, what could possibly all the people involved
are dead? What could possibly be in those papers now ye're using invisible ink
in those days, that sort of technology. What could possibly be that we
can't know but you sealed it. So it's not a democracy if you've got
thousands and thousands of secrets now and they're supposed to work for us all they
I think they prove they don't. Actually they would. They work for themselves.
They've been worked for the corporations for a long time. Yeah, I've
got I've gotta put something. Oh, I don't be a big going off
the off the trailer a little bit here, but I've got did you ever
come across any flat earth us in your line up business? Well? I
had a friend who was trying to you know, he was he was shocked
by the you know, the whole thesis of it, and he used to
keep trying to engage me in what these people were saying, right, um,
and you know you get sucked in, don't you. So I got
sucked in slightly in thinking like, well, you know, how cannot be
possible for these reasons and those reasons. And I know that pilots, the
way they fly, and the you know, snipers have to they have to
you know, adjust their sights if they're shooting over fifteen hundred meters for the
curvature of the earth and and so so you know, I just refused to
engage because I thought this is going to take my mental energy in a direction
I don't really want to send it. I don't really so so I used
to try and resist it and have done as much as possible because there's so
many other things I could be thinking about really rather than that. No,
it's just because I think, well, the crop circles and you were talking
about the layer of the landlord. I'll just bunder if you ever do come
across people that's might you know one of these things. The other thing that's
interesting about being a researcher in sort of paranormal let's say field for years is
that, you know, you you get exposed to all kinds of different theories
about all these sorts of things, don't you, And you've got to try
and um, keep your feet on the ground. Yeah. Well, the
funny thing is sort of again they are so convinced by it as well,
there is there is convinced by as much as we're convinced that the world is
globular, you know, I know. Yeah, it's um, it just
goes to show you, doesn't it. That that that but you know,
it's very difficult to be certain about anything. One thing that Michael, one
thing that Michael used to say was that the only reason people go to war
with each other is because they're certain about something, and if and if you
suspend certainty and say, well, I think it's probably likely that that might
be like that, but I'm not one hundred people say that, then then
you've got somewhere to have a chatter, a cup of tea in a cheese
roll. But if you have sense certain the knives come out. Yeah,
yeah, because I mean they say things like we can't prove that the wolves
round, because I mean, obviously we can't. I can't actually sit there
and say to you that I can prove that the europe is an I know,
I know, I know. I mean, you know, it's like
the moon landing, isn't it. And I know Mary Bennett and and and
Percy really well, and well you know, I've met them several times,
and I've read the book and I've looked at and you go like this is
nuts and happened. And then the more you read it and the more you
go, actually, you know this is there's something in this and it's I
don't know, it's we have a propensity, don't we as human beings?
But there is a there is a flaw I think in you know, you
know Uval Noah Hararian that sapiens. He says that our greatest strength is our
ability to tell stories. Yeah, this is what brought us an advantage over
Neanderthal and all the other sort of species of hominids that were around, in
that we communicated through language and could tell stories to the other person and bring
them into a collective where we all work together because we have a shared story
like religion. Um. And then in the power of working together, we
became really strong. And so cooperatives seem to have been the way that we
sort of advanced as early human beings. And I think a lot of the
monuments that we see going back to the Wiltshire and Stone Hinge and Avebury and
Silbury Hill and west End brown stuff bringing stones to the Purselles, and a
cooperation that seems to have gone on between people along the British Isles and other
countries, other countries around the world. It seems to show that that that
that's a really big thing that gave us a strength. But it's also our
achilles heel because because we can deceive each other with stories, believe them,
and when we really believe them, they become just as powerful like a placebo
as the truth. Yeah. Absolutely, And also you mentioned about the model.
If there's a lot of connections all over the world for that as well,
a lot of very similar ones, which is a that's a sort of
a conundrum in itself. It really is, isn't it. I mean,
I mean, there's some great films out there now. But the builders that
there were some French French researchers, engineers and archaeologists who've done a bit.
It's called the builders of ancient Monuments. They've they've done some excellent, excellent
work when going around the world and and and and looking at all these monuments
and showing God how they're how they're related to each other with proportions and ratios
like the Golden Section and the Fibonaci sequence and pie around the world, and
they're connected to each other over vast distances. You know, it gets it
gets more and more mind boggling, really when you look into these ancient civilizations
and I think going back to the cropsher who was the reasons that you know,
Wiltshire is the hub as you said earlier, they are they are our
worldwide phenomenon. But the County of Wiltshire, the Veil of Pewsy, this
this area, the souls be playing is the most prominent hub for the crop
circle phenomenon. And and then when you look into the context, and that's
where farming first began, you know, it's where the magna carta was drawn
up on a sort of a plane. There's so much of our history as
human being is changing from hunter gatherers to farmers to husbandry and animal husbandry in
that area and building from there. And you know, the ancient monuments that
existed prior to that, and that and that seemed to have involved this cooperation
that all incorporate this same geometry that we've found in crop circles. For example,
Stone Hinge contains hidden squaring squared circle, just like we've found in lots
of other crop circles. That seems windedness of certain things that these ancient people
really took seriously in some kind of belief system or philosophy. That because the
one thing about I want to bring this up right. One thing about geometry,
and that Plato said was that geometry is number made visible. It's number
in space. When you see a triangle, you're really seeing them, that
the number three, you're seeing it visually rather than just a symbol that represents
it. You actually see what threeness is about. It encloses a space with
three lines like squares four and so on. So you're looking at number in
space like music is number in time, number in space. And and if
you, for example, if you draw a triangle and then it doesn't matter
what size, and you draw a circle inside that triangle that touches all three
the three lines, and it's perfectly inscribed in the center. And then you
draw a circle on the outside of that triangle that touches all the three points.
Then that circle on the inside will be exactly half the size of the
circle on the outside two to one ratio, okay. And Plato called that
an ever truth. He said that we can anchor the pursuit of truth in
our philosophy and our philosophical musings. Here. We can anchor ourselves in truth
in reality here, because that circle that's two to one ratio with another circle
will always be true. It's always been true, and it's true now.
And so they use geometry as a part of their philosophical attempts to understand human
nature and reality as an anchor for what we find in material reality, like
the geometry of nature, like Fibonaci curves and ramswans and so on and so
so when I when I first discovered that, I realized that, you know,
it's not just geometry, it's not just mathematics. There's there's a lot
more to this geometry stuff that goes into philosophy and cosmology. And it seems
that the people that built Stonehenge and av Brey and all these things in our
ancestors knew that. And we're being reminded of it right next to them with
these crop circles. This this mystery of the modern times is mixing and reminding
us with the mystery of our ancestors. And there they're what they worked to
do in the old times. Sure. Yeah, And when you start looking
at lay lines and things that's lying up all over the world, it's so
crazy. It's like it's like the cham Chinese acupuntry system, isn't it you
know, tell us it doesn't exist, but it's been around for eight thousand
years. Yeah, yeah, it's mad. Well, it's not mad.
This is just I think it's a parcel we're never going to work out.
Just you know, I know a lot of people are working on these things,
but they don't really come up with any answers, do they It's true,
It's true. I mean there's there's lots of there's. What the crop
circles seem to do is I mean they raise topics that then once you start
investigating those topics, you find yourself going down a rabbit hole. Yeah.
That then leads you back to this central topic, which is, um,
what is the role of humanity? Yeah? What is it all about?
Yeah? Where all we? Who are we? Yeah? Yeah, I
mean I mean when? And the square, the symbol of the squared circle
you see, is the symbol like the Vitruvian man that da Vinci did.
It's it's the symbol of heaven and Earth. A square is the rational thing
that represents Earth for his fourness, like the four directions card on points and
so one's fourness is. There's lots of reasons why four is the symbol for
Earth. And the circle like the circle of the heavens, watching the planets
go around as in a circle in the sky. Circle was always the symbol
for heaven and so unite in a square and circle, making them the same
size. I was saying, the same had the same area was always a
symbol. Going back into antiquity of uniting heaven and Earth, and this theme
has run through the crop circles for forty years, this notion of hiding these
solutions to square in a circle and the concept of heaven and Earth. I
watched Joe Rogan talking to that sad guru bloke I'm not sure about, but
I watched him talking to him about heaven and Earth the other day, and
this sadgu said, one of the problems with the modern society is that is
that the notion of heaven, that if it is possible, has just gone
from people's minds. It's like this fantasy place like Father Christmas at once we
were told, you know, you'll go if you're a good boy. But
he says, what if this is heaven? And we're just making a mess
out of him. I think it's I think it's the other place yourself.
Yeah, well that's what Joe Rogan said back to him. He said,
what if it's hell? And and you know, we can see that it
could be heaven, but we're in hell really because it's always like like a
carrot dangling in front of us that we can never get to because someone comes
up and bugs it up. Yeah. So I can be true, can't
they? Yeah? Absolutely, I mean we could actually go to a lot
of the holographic universe. But I does think we've got time for all that
that's got married as well, isn't it. Yeah? Absolutely, yeah,
when when you start, I mean, there was something I couldn't get my
head around a little while a little while back. But I read David nix
late this book and it's it's absolutely brilliant. It lays it all out for
you. It may actually it makes sense, you know, it's um,
I'll really recommend it. So you want that doesn't sort of understand anything about
the holographic universe, because it does actually makes a lot of sense. And
then it does make lots of sense. I mean, you know, when
you look at a part, you're looking at the whole. And that's a
game in crop circles because when you look at fract tools, that's exactly what
a fractor is. Yes, exactly, it's a part that is actually the
whole. And when you get when you get your head around that, there's
nothing solid yea, And yeah, it takes you. It's all sorts of
areas where UFOs and other sorts of paranormal all sort of blend together. It
does. But then you come back to, for example, the let's say,
the preachings of Daoism, the philosophy of Taoism, and what they will
tell you is that is that is the enlightenment comes from constantly refocusing on the
body. So we've got this meat, you know, pile of meat that
we that we occupy, our consciousness occupies that we that we walk around in.
But but by bringing our awareness back inside the body and not off in
the imaginary realms, they say that we we you know, we then get
into contact with the whole because we are part of it, right, And
that makes some sense. And then you see they say, like, oh,
the reason that people you know take a chemical for this or want to
get out of their heads is because coming back in the body is a painful
place. There's too much pain inside with memories or regrets or guilt or so
we want to get out of our body. We want to get out of
our minds. We want and so that's why bad food and bad health and
addictions and all these other things are in the modern society because we can't we
can't get back in eybody. So we've got this kind of duality of it.
That's the point. Is this outside reality that could be this massive thing
of interdimensionality, but all of that could exist inside our body as well,
and probably does if these microcosomat cousin holographic theories are right. Yeah, Therefore,
to get in touch with all of that which is out there, which
is so big we can't even fathom it, you just have to get in
touch with ourselves and so make gazing and getting back to that when they said
back in the sixties has got some merrit And also it's not just mean I
must say, it's not just David like with these series now. It's been
the theory that's been around other scientists for quite a while, and I think
David like sort of has gone on on with you know, that research and
sort of agrees with it. Basically, that's where it comes down. I
remember reading it back in that I can't remember who it was, but when
when I first read it, I think it might have been like Watson's SuperNature
or something like that, one of those books that said it, and I
was like, oh, wow, that makes sense. Yeah. There's a
book, The Holographic Universe by Michael Michael Talbot is one of the I think
is the the pioneer book in that area. Yeah, I say things get
look like you say, down the rabbit hole, down a rabbit hole exactly.
That's it. That's it. It's been fantastic every on the show.
Gary. Do you do you actually go to any conferences and things or yeah,
I'm speaking at Glastonby Symposium on the twenty Oh, yes I know you
are. Yeah, I'll Unfortunately I don't think I can get to that.
Unfortunate because Marie Maria Weekly's theories well doesn't. I'm not sure she's there this
year. She I know, she speaks at megalith She spoke at megalithan Mania.
You know, Hugh, I'm going to that in November. She'll be
there. Oh that one in PUSI yeah, oh yeah, that's what he's
doing, because he used to do that one in November in London. But
I was around Hugh's. Hugh's just done a voice over from me for a
documentary. She really all right, very very interesting to be the voice.
So so yeah, i'll tell you what your pressure could actually might one enough
to get him on the show. I don't know if he have told him
when he was a very busy man. But he's actually difficult to tie down.
And I know there's there's quite a few people though that he's Yeah,
he's all over the place. Fair play to him, he is, you
know what he's built over there. I've known you quite a long time over
twenty years, liken't you know. We're good friends and fair places with him.
What he's built with megalith and mania and taking people to Yes, it's
incredible, you know, and he's done a really good job. Yeah.
JJ's probably nice as well. She's very Yeah, they actually went when they
actually came to visit me. When when during the pandemic they came to visit
me in Mexico City. Oh yeah, because they wanted to get away from
the UK. Yeah, so I know Hugh came and stayed in Mexico for
about six months, and he came to Mexico City and hung out with me
for a while, and then he went down south to Merida somewhere and stayed
down there. Oh, noice anyway, Oh ess put anyway, will be
we'll be there in November. But so you'll be at that conference there.
Have you got a website or do you think that people know? I just
all I do is run the Facebook page for anybody's it's a group called against
the Grain. It's the Grain. Yeah, and I got a YouTube channel
called against the Grain as well. I published sort of light little things I
made over the years. There's stuff on there of drowning footage of crop circles,
there's interviews, there's excerpts from documentaries I've done. I've done a load
of stuff over the years. I've done you'll know you. So that's all
out there history channel, with various other bits and pieces. Well will I
mean, I will put so, I'll find some links and things to put
on the parallel that mensions page and hopefully you'll get a few real visisters coming
your way. Brilliant, all right, lovely, I'll send you those.
Yeah, the photograph of the crop circle, the eight crop circle, wasn't
it? And yeah, yeah, anything anything you think might be interesting,
I'll put it all on the page. You know. As I say,
Gary's been great talking to you at last. I've all this time too.
You can do it again, and hopefully i'll bump into you at some point
somehow. We lovely, I'll be lovely, yeah, all right, really
great to speak to you. David, thank you all right, Gary,
thank you very much and farewell to you. Good night, all right,
take care of yourself. Tears Barry, bye bye we are That was Gary
King. Thank you, Gary, excellent, really enjoyed that I came.
My next guest. There's somebody else who's coming back to the show. He
was on the show not too long ago talking about King, Arthur and Merlin.
And his name's Mark Oi. As I said, he was on the
show a little while ago, but he's back now on the seventh of August,
Monday, the seventh of August, and we're going to be talking about
everything alien. That's one to look forward to. That's Mark Oli. That's
Monday, seventh of August. Now on the theme of aliens. If you
remember the alien Autopsy from many years ago, and the man who produced it
was a good friend of mine named Spirius Malaris, who's been on a show
several times before. But he's having back again on the fourth of September.
But before that visit, you might like to visit Spirosy's website, which is
www dot alien dot gifts, and he's got all sorts of things alien related
and particularly alien autopsy related. I've just ordered a T shirt which some looking
forward to getting. So you can look forward to also having Spiros back on
the show on Monday, the fourth of September, unless things change, of
course, but that's the plan. So until the next time obviously, as
always, if you'd like to get in touch with me at any time,
maybe you've got some questions for Spirous, but he's get in touch. My
email address is David Young two q N at yahoo dot co dot uk.
That's David Young two q N at Yahoo dot co dot uk. So until
the next show, seventh of August with Mark Ali. I shall leave you
now and we'll look forward to speaking to you next time. Take care of
yourselves, bye bye this time. Paranormal Dimensions is as bright and powerful as
our celestial star us up and although it's expending thousands of pounds of energy every
minute of the day, have no here, There's plenty left. Paranormal Dimensions
is fortnightly on Mondays on the Paranormal UK Radio Network.