Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. As I said a
while ago, we're not doing these every week. We're gonna kind of bring
them out about every two weeks. But this week we've got a really great
episode because the Last of Us is finished up. Turns out that some interesting
ethical choices were made by the end of the season, and we have a
lot to talk about. And so we're back with myself, Aaron McGowan and
Danielle Written in the Star Wars all that morning after commercial break, we have
no controller. Welcome back. This is Matthew, your host. Then pronounced,
I'll let my two guests introduce themselves. Aaron, Hi. Yeah,
I'm Aaron McGowan, also known as Lady Tano, creates on Instagram and TikTok.
I'm usually on the Star Wars podcast with Matthew talking about the Bad Batch,
but I am here for I mean a little bit. I have to
dip out in about a half hour, and I'm sure you guys will keep
talking, but I wanted to have a little input about the Last of Us.
I think we might go past a half hours. There was one or
two things to bring up, but yeah, I'm really glad you can join
us for at least that part. Danielle, what about your tell? Yeah,
I'm Danielle at written in the Star Wars on TikTok and Danny s three
nine four on Twitter. And I'm so excited because the last of us is
you know, just my jam. I love it. Yeah, I'm so
glad I have both you on to talk about it. There's so much we're
gonna get into. And I first want to say, we're gonna have massive
spoilers for both the game and the show. And I just want to start
the by congratulating Danielle, you especially, but also all the people who've played
the game and been commenting on it, because I admit there were some things
about like something Joel's gonna do something big at the end of the season,
but that and and and and a couple and a couple of people commenting,
uh, you know, I don't always agree with Joel's choices, and Danielle
you said that a bunch I kept being like, well, what choices has
he really made? That? Oh oh um. But for the most part,
the people who have played the whole game, really I follow a bunch
of you, and I wasn't spoiled, and I was completely taken aback by
the end. And I do want to start by saying that and and uses
leading I kind of say, for you, as someone who knew the game,
had played the game many many times, and had strong emotional connections to
it, what was it like watching the show along with a bunch of people
on social media and your friends who hadn't played it before and who are experiencing
it for the first time. It's so hard because I, you know,
I'm when I'm doing my analysis of the things, I try not to let
the fact that I know things that are going to happen color my analysis of
it, because ultimately, the show does show things that the game doesn't,
and the game shows things that the show doesn't, And I want my analysis
to always be something that is based purely off of the medium that I'm judging
right then, And so it's hard not to not to say anything, and
it's hard to, you know, just not include that in things. But
I'm so excited that there were so many people who weren't spoiled, because I
wanted to know what people's ideas were about it based purely on the show and
not off of the discourse that has happened from the games that have been influenced
a lot by Part two, which of course I'm not going to talk about,
but just you know, people's new ideas and people's new approaches to it
and what they thought of it. So that was a lot of fun to
experience. And Aaron, you have not played the game, right, No,
I'm not. I got a seven minute rundown by one of my high
school boyfriends, but that's about all I know, and that was before the
second game came out, So I know nothing about the second game. Yeah,
neither do I. I have downloaded it, and I'm making puppy dog
guys at my partner to ask her to play it while I watch, because
I trust you, Danielle. Personally, I don't trust Twitter to not spoil
it over the next two years. But there's so much to get into about
this show, and I just want to let's just start though at the end,
because obviously it's a huge thing. And I literally looked at my partner
when it finished, who had also been very good about not spoiling it because
she's played the game and went we spent this whole time watching a villain origin
story. How did that happen? And the idea of whether Joel or is
a villain is a whole different topic that we'll get into, and I'm not
saying he necessarily is, but like, Aron, what was that like for
you to get to that moment at the end and be like it's so different
than any expectation I might have had or you might have seen it coming.
I don't know. No. I was really confused because a few days before
I had googled, like, oh, is there going to be a season
two? Because I didn't know there was a second game? And then it
was like, yeah, like there's going to be a season two, and
like, here's explaining why Bella Ramsey is not going to be recast even though
it's a five year jump, And I was like, thank god, I
would have really not wanted to watch it if it wasn't Bella Ramsey. Yeah,
and then it made some comment about her character in the second game that
really led me to believe that Joel was going to die in that last episode.
Like I I clearly read it wrong. You know, I stopped reading
immediately. So they may have explained or expanded on that later, but I
just stopped reading immediately. And closed the tab. But yeah, I thought
Joel was a goner. So when he went on his rampage through the hospital,
I was like, he's gonna get shot. And then when it was
like he was holding Ellie and Marlene was like had a gun on him,
I was like, he's gonna get shot. And then Marlene got shot and
I was like this, I did not see you coming hang on. Yeah,
it really hit very hard. And one of the things I think that
I love so much about it. We'll get it into Joel's character because I
think that's that enter Danielle. It's so important for you. But just the
way that this show overall went against every expectation that I think might have been
set up for it so well, especially because I think You See is very
different than the game. I started out thinking that one of the episodes I
was going to do at the end of the show was something with Professor Matthew
of Howe, who's been on many times about this sort of like the genre
of Vampire verse zombie and why there's like a generational shift. I would say
that I ended this show thinking this isn't really a zombie show. This is
a humanity dealing with a horrible apocalypse where the apocalypse happens to be zombies,
and we'll give you a couple of fun scenes of them fighting zombies. But
like, this could be nuclear war that they're all coming out of. This
could be and they're all sick because of radio Like this could have been.
And so yeah, I was just so in love with the idea that instead
of just doing a zombie movie where everything was gonna be about how to fight
the zombies a TV show, it really wound up being just about humans in
a horrible situation and all the horrible choices they have to make. Yeah,
yeah, that's part of you know, is so enrapturing about the story itself
and the game. It's not just a good game. It's not just a
good show. It's a good story. And if you have a good story,
you can tell it in any medium as long as you respect what is
what that medium is best at, you know, And I think that that's
just what makes it so easy for people to connect with too, because you
know, yeah, there's there's these infected who we don't have in our real
life, but that's not the main part of the story. The main part
of the story is relationships. In humanity and love and cycles of vengeance and
violence that we experience already, And so if we experience that already in our
lives, how does that get amplified in a post apocalyptic world? And that
is what the story is about, and I hope that that's what everyone who
watched it, who maybe didn't play the game gets from it. That there's
not supposed to be really any heroes or villains. There's it's just humans trying
to deal with this shit hand that they've been dal, and you know,
that's the beauty and the tragedy of it. Yeah, I agree. It's
like, I guess I wasn't that shocked with Joel's decision because he is not
a hero. You know, he's been made out as primarily a father and
someone who's like willing to fight. You know, we learned that him and
Tommy used to murder people at the start of this whole apocalypse just to get
by, just to get supplies, just to you know, whatever it was.
And it's like, well, that's not inexcusable. And Tommy, you
know, makes that point about Joel says, oh, we did bad things,
and Tommy said, those were people and we murdered them. Yeah,
yeah, And I really liked that moment, and so especially with the whole
like Sarah and Ellie parallel just like the way I understood it. I could
be wrong, but basically Marlene was like, yeah, we're gonna kill Ellie,
but it's probably going to save the world, And so Joel being like,
absolutely not, I will kill all of you to save her made complete
sense to me because he's not a hero. He's not someone who set out
to save the world. He's someone who's set out to get a truck battery,
like that was his goal. He never really cared about that. He
even said to Ellie at the start of this episode, you know, we
can just go back to Tommy's. We can live it out. You know
it'll be okay, Like this may or may not work. And she's the
one who's kind of, yeah, we came this far, like we have
to see well, especially because and I want to be clear, I'm starting
out talking about how empathetic I am and his decision. That's a very different
conversation between do we agree with his conversation, his decisions, and I think
be talking about all of that, but just further on the empathy of it.
I rewatched most of the show last night and this morning, and my
god, is there's so much foreshadowing if you know what's happening. That's a
whole of thing we'll talk about. But one of the things that really came
through for me, now that I kind of knew where the story was going
to go, was that he does not want to get attached to her.
He fights it so hard, and it's Bill leaving that note for him that
that kind of opens him up. It's the whole thing about like will be
him or Tommy who takes her to the university, which I don't understand why
it wasn't both, But that's a whole other story entirely. But there's all
these ways which he fights so hard not to get attached to her, and
then he finally does, and he lets his wall down and it all comes
in, and then now they're asking to take it away from him, like
it. I don't love what he did, but I feel like every single
thing that could have been set up to make him do that, to put
him in a position where that the only thing that would feel in character for
him to do was done, it was so well, Like I don't think
he could have done anything else, and I would have been like, oh,
yeah, that's in character for Joel. H Yeah, absolutely, And
I think what's so coming from someone who has played the games a lot,
and as much as I love Joel, Ellie is my first priority when it
comes to how I feel about these games. And I feel that way because
of a lot of reasons. There's a lot of really bad culture and the
Last of Us fandom where Ellie gets sidelined, a lot, her feelings get
sidelined, her emotions, her desires, everything because people want Joel to be
right. They want Joel to always be right because they see themselves in Joel.
And that's fine. But so anyway, I'm digressing, but I am
in Ellie. Ellie is my first priority always, and so it's been interesting
to me to see that the main conversation and the main thing that people are
bringing up is whether or not Joel was right to do what he did at
the hospital, because I think that's actually a kind of easy answer, or
easy question to answer, because yeah, we would all do that. I
think we all have people that we would prioritize above anything else in this world,
and that's just part of being human. And I think it's easy to
look at that and say, yeah, I totally understand, I totally get
why you would kill all these people so that you could save this little girl.
But what about What I always have always been most interested in is what
comes after that, which is his lie to Ellie and what that means for
their relationship, what that means to Ellie. Because I've said this before,
but Joel's purpose is Ellie right now. She is his world. Joel is
not Ellie's purpose. Ellie's purpose was her immunity and her ability to try and
save people when she couldn't save them before. And she has to watch them
die knowing that she can't die from the same things they can. And what
happens when you lie to this person about that, about how their purpose has
ended and they know it too. Ellie knows at the end that Joel is
lying to her. She might not know exactly what he's lying about, but
she does know. And so I'm always I've just been really intrigued that people
talk a lot about the choice of the hospital, which is fine. I
think it's meant to make you uncomfortable, it's meant to make you question things,
but far less discourse I think has been happening around what happens after,
which is, in my opinion, far more important of a discussion. I
think it is because it colors so much of what he does, especially because
and I there's a lot of discourse online about toxic love and what that can
look like. And I think it's very easy to set that up as a
binary, and I don't want to do that at all. I think there
is selfishness in all love, and you can say toxicity plays in sometimes it,
as he does, but it's not a binary. Yeah, But I
do think that there's a distinction between loving someone because of who they are in
your life and wanting to keep that versus loving someone in a way that wants
them to find their purpose, even if it takes them away from you,
you know, And like this is you know, every parent does through this
in terms of like, you know, wanting their child to find their their
best life or even it means living, taking them away or I should say
every parents or they does not always work out that well. Forget every parent,
you know, but you know what I mean, same thing with like
best friends, a romantic part. You know, sometimes you can say that
like you know, the thing that my partner wants or my friend wants isn't
what would be best for my relationship with them, But I have to understand
what that's what they wants. And for me, so much of what that
is saying is Joel knows that if he tells her the truth, he will
lose her. She won't die, but he knows her well enough to know
that she will be so mad that she didn't get to choose. And again
the foreshadowing as I went back and watched, there's the scene where he's waiting
with the horses and they're deciding if it would be him or Tommy who takes
her. And he doesn't say no, I'm going to take her. He
says, I think Tommy would be best, but I quote, you deserve
a choice, And that line hits so hard for me, knowing that later
he's going to not only deny the choice, but lie to her because he
knows that she did deserve the choice, and she'll be so mad that she
didn't get it. Here's the thing with Joel. I love him, I
love him so much and I will defend him, but I will also criticize
him. And the thing with him is that he will allow choices, or
he's most most likely to allow Ellie a choice when he knows that her choice
is going to align with what he wants. And that's what we saw in
episode six when he gives her the choice. He knows Ellie's going to choose
him over Tommy. He knows, and so he gives her this choice knowing
that she's going to choose him, But a part of him is like,
if she doesn't, then I'll accept that. But if he had any doubt
that she wouldn't, would he have allowed her to make that choice? Do
you know what I mean? And so I think we're seeing the opposite of
that at the end of the s at the end of the season, because
he doesn't know what she would do, or rather he knows how she would
react, but he's terrified of what she'll do. And because of that,
I think that is what is keeping him from being like, here's what I
did. Now, what do you want to do? After the things I've
done? What do you want to do? Because he doesn't know what she
would choose, and he probably thinks that it wouldn't be him, and even
just that he would see it in those terms that it would be because for
her, I think it would be choosing do I sacrifice myself? But he
would see it as would she give up on me? Yeah, in order
to sacrifice herself to do all these things. Yeah. What I will say
speaking about like choices and them being taken away from Ellie is we could have
avoided this mess if Marlene had given her the choice and not put her under
and said we didn't tell her, she won't feel a thing, but we're
going to kill her. You couldn't like if you believe, and then to
turn around and say to Joel, you know she'd want to do the thing.
Well, Marlene, if you knew that, you would have told her
yes. So so this is where one of the things that I wish they
had included. And I think they tried to um in the show with the
very beginning and showing Marlene's relationship with Anna and Um and and when she when
she's having the conversation with Joel and they take Joel away, Marlene's crying.
There's there's a tear, and I think that she does care about Ellie.
And in my Temple of Geek, not podcast, Temple of Geek article that
I wrote about this finale, I focus this on purpose and how the only
thing these people have in this post apocalyptic world is their purpose. What they've
decided their purposes, that's all they have to live for. And um Joel's
purpose, as I've said, is Ellie right now. He didn't have a
purpose for a long time and then Ellie came into his life and he has
that purpose. Marlene's purpose is the Fireflies and is the hope for a reinstated
civilization, the hope for a cure for humanity. That is what she has
focused her purpose on. And the difference between these two is that Joel's purpose
is a person, Marlene's purpose is an idea, and both of them will
do whatever it takes and sacrifice whoever it takes to reach that purpose. And
I do think that the Fireflies not allowing Ellie a choice was the very first
mistake that was made here, and it's absolutely horrible. And but one thing
that's in the game that I'm hoping they maybe go back and add in for
season two is that Marlene struggles with this choice more than anything because when she
since Ellie with Joel, she doesn't know that Ellie's going to have to die
in order for them to have a chance or a chance at the cure,
and she doesn't know any of this, and it's not until they run the
tests that the doctor decides all of this, and Marlene struggles with it and
she feels absolutely horrible about it. There's these recordings in the game at the
end of part one where you hear her talking to Anna. She's talking to
Anna into this recording and she is absolutely devastated at the choice that she's making
and she is failing. She says, I failed you, Anna, I
failed you. You asked me to save your daughter, and I'm failing you.
But I have to do this because there's no other way to save humanity.
And so it's like, I can see Marlene's perspective in wanting to save
humanity. There's nothing wrong with that, and there's nothing wrong with Joel wanting
to save Ellie. Where they both make the mistake is them not allowing Ellie
choice. So we're stuck in this cycle of the Fireflies are the ones to
instigate not allowing Ellie the choice. Joel has a horrific but understandable reaction to
that, and then he turns around and does the exact same thing. To
Ellie. He has the opportunity to set it right and to say this is
what was going to happen. This is why I couldn't let them do it.
You deserve a choice. And if he was thinking you deserve a choice,
then why didn't he ask her afterwards? It's because of all the horrible
things he did. So it's this vicious cycle you have here that one thing
affects another affects another affects another, and who is more responsible at this point,
who is more to blame? And I don't think there are easy answers
to this, and everyone's going to have a different answer to it. And
that's the beauty of it to me. The beauty of the story is that
it's not easy to answer these questions. Yeah, it is so well done,
and it says so much about how much how much the perspective that we
have from the storyteller changes these things. Like I made the joke about this
being a villain origin story, and to be clear, I didn't mean that.
I think it's because Joel is objectively a villain. I think it's because
if you're telling this story from someone else's perspective, then you know, if
the story is that we could have had a cure to fix humanity, but
this guy, Joel, stole what we need for the cure, and so
your mission is to go get him, like and the hero does that but
eventually asked to realize that actually the guy had a very good reason for doing
what he did, or like, there's so many ways that a lot more
modern stuff, especially in DC and Marvel, we're getting more and more of
these deeply relatable, deeply understandable villains. Sometimes where it's you totally agree with
the villains end goal, you just disagree with his means, or often his
could be any but often it's his and that I think could apply to Joel,
Or it's just that that this person's the villain because we don't know their
context, we don't know their story, and like it was just so wonderfully
set up. I think such a great commentary on this thing of because yet
with the one exception of the pastor, I feel like every single character in
this show I can understand that from their point of view, they see themselves
as the hero. You know, and some of them I think are easier
to relate to. Some are harder, But like even Kathleen, I think
it's her name, the leader of the Fireflies in Kansas City. Like,
I get where she's coming from, even not the pastor himself. I think
clearly there's like a lot of bad applications where he's going with Elliott. But
like everyone else in his church, they sent people out to try and get
food. One of their people was killed. They have to do what they
have to do, you know. So yeah, I just it's it is
just so powerful to me how they're really playing on this idea of who's a
hero who is a villain, and that from one person's point of view,
that who is a hero who is a villain is entirely based on who's the
person telling their story. Yeah, everyone's a villain and someone else's story.
Yeah, and this just takes that to the extreme very much. So,
yeah, very much. So. So let's talk specifically about Joel first and
his choices, and before you get to use choices. One of the things
that I rewatching it also made so clear to me is that I was thinking
about the mistakes Marlene made, and I thought, definitely she makes a mistake
in allowing Joel, not allowing Ellie to make a choice. But also I
felt like Marlene, how could you be so stupid as to think you could
tell Joel all this and he wouldn't react exactly as he does. But then
when I went back and rewatched episode one where he's like, Okay, this
is Cargo, this is not a person. I'll just transport her, I
realized that detail is brilliant because it again shows just how much he's changed and
Marlene hasn't seen any of that. Yeah. Yeah, I think she didn't
expect him to get as attached as he did because the only jewel she's ever
known is the Joel post Sarah, And when it comes to that, I
think she I think he was probably the one person she thought would do this
and be done with it by the end, and she didn't account for the
fact that because he was the father, this was going to be very difficult
for him, and that was definitely another mistake for her. But yeah,
it's it's just so complicated because like I talk about this and I don't.
My favorite thing about this is that it exists in a gray area, and
it exists in something that, you know, a world that we don't understand
because it doesn't follow the same rules that we have. And that's my favorite
part about it, and I love exploring that. But it's just so interesting
to see every everyone one want to pick a side, and I feel like
the Last of Us asks you, like to question that, why do you
have to pick a side? Why do you have to say that this person
is acting better than this person? And ask you to question that, like
why, why why do you do that? Why do we inherently do that
as humans? And I just love that kind of philosophical you know, force
that they have on there. It's just like, this is going to make
you uncomfortable, and we want it to be We want you to not be
in your comfort zone. When you talk about this show, Yeah, I
think it's such a good way of putting it. I think it's why it
is both perfect and terrible for this show specifically, because this is all about
exploring the ethical choices that heroes and villains and all them make. And I
think there is so much to explore. But the whole point like that,
if we were to come down and be like, Okay, in the objective
analysis, this character is right, this character is wrong, this is the
ethical character, this is the unethical character. We've completely missed the point of
the of the whole show and the game and the ms of the game as
well. Yeah, it's and it's it's just it's just interesting. I like
seeing the way people engage with it differently. Um I try not to get
to because I can get very analytical about it, and I know that that's
not everyone's thing. And I was just like, that's just that's just how
I am with this show. Like I was talking to my boyfriend about it
and I was said, normally, you have a scene like Joel going through
the hospital or Joel in interrogating and torturing those men in any other thing,
I'd be like, yeah, get them, get them. But I've experienced
this story so much and I've viewed it from so many different angles that I'm
like, I just can't. I can't do that anymore. I have to
have a deeper look into it. I have to be thinking about it differently,
and so it's nice to see other people view it differently and remind me
that that's how I was when I first played the game. That's what my
reaction was, and it's changed every single time I've played it. Every single
time i'll watch it, probably I find new perspective and I find something else
to it, And I think that's what makes it such a good story that
you can do that you can play it so many times, watch it so
many times, and get something new from it every single time. Yeah,
I'm thinking, Okay, I'm horrible with video games. I'm gonna be honest.
I actually, over the weekend got lunch with the same boyfriend, well
ex boyfriend, who first introduced me to this game, and he also we
were playing Arkham Asylum together before we broke up, and it's been four years,
haven't seen him since. And we're sitting there chatting and he's like,
I can promise you, like I will bet money that you never finished Arkham
Asylum, and I was like, yeah, you're one hundred percent right,
Like, if I don't have another person there with me, I'm not going
to do it because if I'm just sitting there by myself, I'm not very
good at video games. So I'm going to get really frustrated when I can't
solve all the little puzzles. And so it's just like, I really want
to get into this game, and I think I'm going to have to give
video games another try, just to see because as you've said, Daniel,
there's so many little details that are different in the game versus the show that
don't necessarily make one better than the other, but it just changes it.
Yeah, So I'd love to like actually see that and understand it the way
you do. You don't get that other perspective. Yeah, And I definitely
share that attitude with you about about the about playing games and really about watching
things in general. And I think this is I'm so glad you've also found
your way to the world of podcasting, because the joke Offen is that a
podcaster is a person who says, what's the point in having a thought if
I can't share it with someone? But yeah, yeah, the discussions about
it are so good because the things you said and yell it raises all these
questions for ourselves about you know, what is love? What you know,
what is the degree you would go to for love? Because one thing that
really struck me and the moment where I started to feel incredibly uncomfortable and started
to really be like I think I get now what is off about Joel's relationship
with Ellie is the scene where he's talking about how much Ellie and Sarah would
like each other because one of the things I thought was important was how much
in his head she is not Sarah. She is not going to be like
Sarah. They are so different. And maybe they would have liked each other.
I don't know if they would have, and maybe they would have,
you never know. They certainly have Joel in common, but the degree to
which he seemed to be forcing that and she was clearly comfortable and he was
kind of going on with it. What did you all think of that scene?
Because to me, it really read as this is him getting to the
point where he's no longer fully seeing Ellie as her. He's slotting her into
the hole that's been left in his life since Sarah was killed. And that's
an overgeneralization, to be sure, but kind of here's what you all saw
in that. Yeah, I was watching it and I was like, Okay,
this is kind of interesting, like weird way to go right after this,
but like, I mean, yeah, I guess it makes sense.
He's feeling better, he's feeling like he's secured the safety of his new daughter,
figure he's probably going to be thinking about his original daughter, his blood
daughter, so I guess like it makes sense for him to bring it up.
But yeah, Ellie was kind of clearly like, yeah, it doesn't
really. He was like not to say you're not girly, and she's like,
I'm not. You know that you can just say that, like we're
so different. And then when it just ended like that, I was just
like, oh, Like it was like a little like punch in the stomach,
Like I thought we were going to get a little more resolution, a
little more of this, but it really just ended on him lying to her
face. And it puts this horrible feeling deep in your stomach of how that's
going to come back in season two. Because Ellie is strong willed, she's
independent, and she doesn't like people making choices for her. Yeah, and
I think she's I mean, as David the Cannibal pointed out, she has
a little bit of a violent heart. She kind of wants vengeance. Like
I don't believe that makes her a bad person or anything negative like that,
but she is the type to get revenge and want revenge, and so this
she could pull a full one eighty on Joel. I don't want to see
that, but I think that might be how the second season goes because something
so important being kept from her and being lied to about it by the person
she trusts the most, Like, Yeah, I don't want to see the
second season be like Joel versus Elie or like Ellie trying to hunt Joel or
anything like that, but it wouldn't shock me either. Yeah, yeah,
I that whole scene. I'm glad you brought it up, Matthew, because
it is so interesting. In the show, they dig a bit more they
have they make Joel talk about Sarah a bit more in the show than in
the game. He still does in that same way, but they add to
it, and I think that was a brilliant choice because it really does show
that Ellie is not on the same level as him with this. And I
was thinking last night, and I tweeted about this about how Joel has the
experience of a father. It is very natural for him to have a child
that he's supposed to protect and put her in the slot of daughter. And
I don't think that means he views her the same as Sarah, but I
think he does view her as a daughter, and that's natural to him and
it makes sense. And therefore, because she's his daughter, he has a
right to certain things about her. He has a right to know what's best
for her. He has a right to make choices in her best interests.
He truly believes that, I think. And Ellie, meanwhile, has never
been someone's child except for when she was a few minutes old, and she
doesn't remember that, she has no recollection of that, And she has had
to spend her entire life up to this point making choices for herself, putting
herself for not putting herself first, but you know, deciding what is best
for her, And all of a sudden along comes this guy who she wants
and likes that he protects her. But protecting allowing someone to protect you isn't
the same as agreeing that they can have they can have a say and what
your best interests are. And I think this is where a lot of people
times don't see what's happening here. That they want Joel and Ellie to be
father daughter so badly, and they can be, but not in the same
type of way that a father daughter who have had this long history together would
be. Because Sarah would accept that Joel is this way. She knows because
she lived that, but Ellie hasn't. That's not her experience. And so
when people say that even if she was given the choice because of her age
or because of the traumatic experiences she's been through, that that choice wouldn't be
a good one, or it wouldn't be consensual because she's it's being affected by
all these things. I don't like that because it discounts her experiences. It
discounts the fact that she has been through so much even before Joel entered her
life. So who is Joel to be the best person to decide for her?
Yeah? I love the way you put that, And I've been thinking
about this ever since you tweeted that because it's such a good point, because
let's take you know, imagine all other things are normal in any other context.
If a father said my child wanted to die to further a cause they
believed in at page fourteen, and I forbid them from doing so, I
think, like I am very much on the side of let kids decide.
Even there though I'm probably coming down on the side of the parent being like,
yeah, you're not going to allow yourself a kid to end their life
in that way for a reason they believe in. But as you said,
all the situate, the fact that it is literally all of humanity against this
one life somebody. I'm not saying that that's an easy equation, but just
you know, that's a part of it that Ellie's been through all of this,
that Ellie has this guilt about you know, the people who die.
She is survivor's guilt quite literally. Um, yeah, it's that. I
think this is you get why his perspective is, of course, I'm not
going to let my child end their life. But he can't see all of
that because I think this is the point where he's no longer seeing her for
her. He wants, he wants her to be Ellie. I think in
some ways that's the hardest part is that I think one of the things that
bonds them is they both have their survivor's guilt. Yeah, you know that's
part of why he I think, want I agree with you before that he
wants he knows she'll choose him over Tommy. But I think part of why
he needs that is because he feels that if he chooses it and he fails,
then it's all his fault, and then she chooses it, it's someone
absolves him of that. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, kind
of going back to what you were saying, Danielle about like the whole father
daughter dynamic. I think it's really true and interesting that it's like, yeah,
Joel had a daughter and lost it. Therefore he has a hole in
his life he's not looking to fill, but he's kind of been forced to
fill until he did accept it, you know. But Ellie didn't have a
father. She doesn't need a slot to fill or a hole to fill because
she's never had that type of energy or relationship in her life. And so
I think it's really true what you're saying about, like it's starting to feel
forced, and it's starting to feel more for Joel than it is for Ellie
because she just needs him as like a strong figure of friends, someone she
can trust, someone who can protect her. But she doesn't need him necessarily
to be parenting her or to be telling her how to make decisions and choices,
because she's been doing that her whole life. Yeah, I think for
her, her feeling over him possibly leaving her when he wants to send her
with Tommy and her feeling that Riley has left her is very, very similar,
and that's helpful because it shows that for her, he's not in this
fundament. You know, it's not that Riley's best friend crush, and crush
is almost way too young bad a word, it's not you know what I
mean, the young love, best friend, etc. And He's parents that
these are two people who are both very important to me, and both of
them for a time at least, I thought we're going to abandon me.
Yeah, yeah, I think that. It's just it's just so interesting the
way Ellie views the people in her life and the way she views being alone.
And I saw someone on TikTok make a really good point about how when
she says okay, there's so many levels to that okay. I view it
as being like herving like a acceptance, but not in a good way.
It's accepting that he's lying to her about something and that he probably did something
horrible, and that their relationship isn't going to be the same after this.
And she's gonna go with him anyway, because one, she does love him.
She does, I don't think that that is like in question. She
does love him. But two, she doesn't want to be alone. Her
biggest fear is being alone. And if she pushes Joel to tell her the
truth anymore after this and he does, what is she going to do?
She's going to go off on her own and her worst fear be realized.
Is she gonna stop talking to him? And you know, it's just it's
like all of that, like accepting that he isn't the person she thought he
was anymore. Yeah, one more thing in the foreshadowing that again I missed
the first time, but going back to the episode, after they've been to
the university and he's been stabbed, he's telling her go take care of yourself,
and she almost does, but then stops, in part because remembers Riley,
and she decides like and she knows she is the possibly the key to
saving this and that she's putting herself in danger. And in the I hadn't
watched any of the after credits type stuff because I don't want to get spoiled,
but I watched it this time, and Neo the writer said about that
moment, the person she loves most in this world is Joel, and she'll
do anything she can to save him. And I think that's part of why
it's not for her an easy decision of he's lying to me, therefore I
leave him. Yeah. I think I think she is going to be angry
that he's lying when she finds out. She's gonna be angry that he took
the choice away from her, But I think she also can understand that idea
of I will do anything to save you, because I think that's where she
was too. Yeah, it's like similar situations. Just the Joel's choice,
you know, is obviously more detrimental to society. It's a bigger choice.
Like for Ellie it was do I stay here and possibly die with him or
do I run back to Tommy, And she chose, you know, to
save him because that's what was important to her, and Joel just the same
thing, just want to save her because that's what's important to him. But
he had to kill like twenty people to do it, Yeah, and take
this possible cure away from the world. So yeah, it's like I can
see how it's similar, so that he can draw the connection to almost make
an excuse or make himself feel better, but it's also different enough that of
course Ellie's going to be furious. Yeah. With that, I do have
to get going. I really really wish I could stay here and talk with
you guys, but I will wait patiently till the episode comes out, and
I will listen to the rest of it. We'll just quickly for those who
are hearing you and they don't hear you on Star Wars, they want to
know more about you, give us just the twenty seconds where to find you.
Okay. I do cosplay on the side. That is my contribution to
the world. I am under the tag Lady Tonnell Create. It's on Instagram
and TikTok. TikTok. I do a lot of like the building of and
some like thoughts about bad Batch and just random things like that. Instagram also
some building of but I also post more like events and things like that that
I've done. Um but yeah, Also, my TikTok has like over one
hundred followers more than my Instagram. So if you guys want to show me
some love on Instagram, I would appreciate it. I actually have two of
my favorite German cos players following me on there. They both have like thirty
thousand followers, and I was like so blessed to be here. So if
they like me, hopefully you guys would like me on Instagram too. With
that, I will go of course by Danielle. So in the conversation we
were just having, I think is a great segue. Could you talk about
how in some ways, like defending Joel's choice to save her is kind of
easy, and I want to look from the other side because I think I'm
a little bit of a morley An apologist, right, And there's all of
this literature and I think very good reason that talks about the idea that like
choosing to sacrifice one person for the greater good of all is a very dangerous
road to go down. And another person why I follow on Twitter, I
forget who it is the moment I'll try and retweet their tweet. In connection
to this, pointed out that in The Song of Ice and Fire, both
the TV shows and the books, there's this great scene where Status they're talking
about like how they think they can sacrifice this boy to save the kingdom,
and he says, you know, what is the life of one bastard boy
against an entire kingdom? And Davos replies everything, Yeah, And that's in
a situation in part because I think we have good reason to know that it
won't work. But I think like that general attitude of you always save the
individual holds so much merit, but I feel like it again pushing against expectations.
If I don't have the emotional connection to Ellie that I do having watched
the whole show. I hate the idea that you have to kill this child
without them knowing it. And I could understand if those people were like,
that was a horrible choice we had to make. It wasn't the right it
wasn't a good choice, it wasn't the ethical choice, but it might have
been the necessary choice. I hope to God I can never be in that
position so that I can stand in my nice eyory tower and judge them.
But I feel like I can really understand why they made that decision and not
entirely but somewhat defended. Yeah, Like I said, this is why viewing
all of this from the perspective of everyone having a purpose is so important in
my opinion, because no one's purpose except for David the Cannibals, is inherently
wrong. You know. I guess maybe even David's purpose and inherently wrong.
He makes it wrong by the choices that he goes about trying to fulfill it.
But like I said, there's nothing wrong with wanting to save the world.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to end horror for everybody. And if that's
your purpose, if that's what gets you through. Then I can completely understand
that. And that is it for Marlene. And I hate when people say
that she's this villain and she's this you know, evil person who took away
Ellie's choice, because if you view it from her perspective, Ellie is the
last thing that she has of her best friend. Her and Anna knew each
other their entire lives, and I think people lessen just how seriously Marlene took
Anna asking her to save Ellie, because people will say, oh, she
just dropped her off with Fedra. Fedra was the safest place for Ellie to
be because Marlene can't leave the Firefly, She can't leave her purpose for Ellie,
and maybe someone else would, but that's not who Marlene is, and
I don't think that makes her a horrible person, but she and she also
can't take care of Ellie while she's in the Fireflies because Ellie would have to
become a part of the Fireflies, and we know that Riley asked Marlene if
Ellie could join her and Marlene said no. And I think in the game
it's made a little bit more clear that it's because Marlene doesn't want to risk
Ellie's life. She would have to put Ellie in life or death situations and
she doesn't want to do that. And a mistake I think I think they
made in the show was not putting in the way it is in the game
that Marlene and Ellie know each other before what happens with Riley. They've met
each other. Ellie knows that Marlene knew her mother. She knows that she
got the letter and the knife from Marlene and all these things, So they
have a relationship before that, and I think that would have been beneficial to
put in the show, yeah, because it adds another layer there that Marlene
has been looking over Ellie her entire life. And I also wonder is the
reason Marlene stayed in the Boston QZ so she could keep an eye on Ellie
because we see that the fireflies move constantly, that they were going to send
Riley off to a different QUZ. And why why has Marlene stayed for fourteen
years in this Boston QZ when it's not really done anything to help them?
But what's the denominator there? Ellie's there? And I think that's also true.
Sorry, oh no, it's okay. I just was saying and then
the minute that Ellie's no longer, there is Marlene traveling with her, wanting
to, you know, get her somewhere else. And so I think that
people really lessen marlene stake in Ellie's life. I think it's also true.
And going back again in the first episode, they do make a bunch of
references to it. You know, there's a line where Allie says, you
know, oh, you're gonna leave me with a bunch of terrorists talking about
the fireflies, and Marlene says, was Riley a terrorist? And of course
we don't know what that means if you haven't played the game, and I
would be watching, I'm like, oh, I see that. And there
are a couple other of those moments, and I think also I remember being
surprised that Marlene was still alive, and I went back something again, I
noticing the rewatch is at one point, like Ellie and I'm sorry, Joel
and Tess are debating if they're going to take Ellie again, And the line
that I think establishes her character so well, Marlene says, can you hurry
up? I'm bleeding out over here because she's been shot, And I think,
not only are we supposed to be a bit surprised that Marlene lived.
I think part of the implication there is that Marlene is convinced she's going to
die at this wound, and that that's part of because that the only reason
she would that go of a yeah, yeah. And I think that it
also says a lot that Marlene didn't shoot her as soon as she found her
and saw that she was bit. Some people might think, oh, she's
making the connections that she knows that Anna was bit before Ellie was born,
before she cut the umbilical cord, she knows that maybe this is a cure,
or maybe this is something we haven't seen before. But I think it
was probably I killed my best friend. I can't kill her daughter too.
And the irony of that is is that then she was forced to make the
choice to do it, and you can't help. But wonder of like if
Marlene had refused the fireflies and the doctor, what would have happened? Would
they have killed her? And then no one would have told Jill, and
no one would have done any of these things. And so I think a
lot of hate is put on Marlene unfairly. She's just a human trying to
again, fight for her purpose and do the best she can. So what
you just said also led me to a whole other connection, which, as
I said, at first, I thought Marlene should wait until the procedure is
over and then just tell Joel I'm so sorry she died during the procedure.
It was tragic. And I think though, that you just pointed out one
other, very good reason why she does it. I think she really needs
him to also acknowledge that. I think she needs him to acknowledge he made
she made them rejoice, or that she needs someone else to know. Yeah,
because I think you're right. I think she is wrestling with us.
I think some part of her, like if it was random kid, I
think she's a decent person that she wouldn't be like yes laughter, or an
eight year old there, or a fourteen year old whatever. But I think
it would be so much easier for her if it wasn't the kid who was
her connection to her best friend, and the kid should promise to protect Yeah.
Yeah, because she didn't have to tell Joel you're right. And I
think that gets left out a lot because I don't talk about that a lot
either in my discourse. But yeah, she didn't have to tell him then
and there, but she does, and so I have to think clearly.
There's when I analyze the media, I'm like, Okay, if this is
happening and I'm wondering about it, then I'm going to assume that the creators
did it with a purpose and they want it to mean something. So what
does that mean here? And yeah, that is who's the other only other
person in the world who would understand what she's feeling. She sees that that's
Joel. She knows the risk in telling him, but she tells him anyway.
And just like she says when he's like, you don't understand, she's
no, I do. Actually I was there when she was born. I
killed her mother, and I shouldn't say that, but I promised her that
I would save her daughter. And I'm the only person right now who actually
does understand what this means. And that's why I always say, and when
I discuss Marlene is that she didn't care about Ellie less than Joel. She
cared about her differently, but that doesn't mean that she cared about her less.
Yeah, I think it's so you good way to put it, and
you know, in essence what the show is creating as a trolley problem,
and I think, like all trolley problems, it is always possible to nitpick
it, you know, because I think we could say, why didn't she
just like the minute she saw Joel was upset, say oh well, let's
just let's let's pause, wake her up, see if she agrees, or
why didn't Joel did hold the gun at her and say you have to wake
her up right now, you know? Instead? And I think that as
a philosopher, yeah, that sounds very pretending. As someone who's studied philosophy
and ethics and likes to use those veins to look at these shows, I
think we can always do that. We can always find a loophole that would
prevent the difficult ethical choice. And I love the show doesn't do that.
I love because it would have been possible for him to rescue her. Like
to some extent, it is always possible to say, we're not going to
do this without her choosing, but we're going to let her choose, and
then if she chooses it, I'll be okay with it. But it is
two things that close that forever. One he kills the doctor and maybe other
doctors know this, but we don't know, and too, he doesn't give
her a choice. Yeah, you know, and like a lot of other
shows would do that as a way to sidestep the difficult issue. And I
just love us so much that it just takes us to that issue. And
I don't I feel like anyone who could just clearly say Joel was right or
Marlene was right, or any if you can come away with this with any
kind of easy ethical perspective, I think you haven't really understood the show,
yes, exactly. And I know I get so into this, and this
is why I really I made a TikTok a long time ago when they first
announced the show, and I was like, this is going to be my
joker. Y'all don't understand, because this is how I am with the and
it truly has become that because I hate when people polarize these decisions because that's
fundamentally against what the show asks you to do. And I know this sounds
ridiculous saying this, but every time I see that, I'm just like,
it feels disrespectful to the show, because disrespectful to the story, because it's
not It doesn't want you to just view Joel as a hero. It wants
you to view Joel as a hero and then have that ripped from you,
because that's what happens to Ellie. And it wants you to grapple with what
you're willing to allow these characters to do and still love them. How you
balance your love for them with the ugly parts of their humanity. And that's
real life. And I think people are resistant to that because they go into
a fictional story and they want to see something that's not real life, something
that's easily that's an easy binary. Characters are easily grouped into these boxes where
they do what we expect them to do, and they don't disappoint us.
Someone who aren't supposed to disappoint us don't disappoint us the ones that are due,
and at least we know what to expect. But that's not what The
Last of Us is. It is a reflection of humanity told in a different
world, a post apocalyptic world. And I love that so much about it,
And I think it's just people don't want to be uncomfortable when they discuss
this. But the best way to engage with his story is to make yourself
uncomfortable. Here's someone talking about it from a perspective that you didn't originally agree
with. And when you feel that discomfort, push past it and hear what
that person is saying, because it makes it so much more of a fruitful
discourse than just saying Joel was absolutely right. I'm not going to listen to
anyone who says anything bad about him, you know. I mean, I
think it is not to go into another show that you and I have discussed
at length, but I think there's a real connection there to Andre and the
problems people who often have with the Endoor, because and Or is another show
that says, okay, yeah, Star Wars started pretty clearly with rebels good,
empire bad. But what if, like a decent person with a terrible
family situation gets wrapped up in the empire and makes terrible choices? And what
if people make horrible choices like to me, um to me, like Luthan
and Marlene would get along real well, you know, Luther would actually be
like Marlene, of course you kill the kid's hesitating, and like you know,
and I think the problem that we've often had that you and I have
both had with the Andor wasn't the time where it took what we thought was
a much more morally complex character and made them a lot more like No,
this character is just good, even though some of the choices they made.
And I think, to me, it's not coincidential that we're getting both of
these stories about the same time, and Mandalorian as well, which is you
know, not I think, not to the extent that and Or is,
but in a similar way. It's come of playing with some of these questions.
And it's just, yeah, I think you're right. I think to
me, I think binary good and bad thinking is helpful escapism sometimes but goes
in some really bad ways some directions, and I think we need our stories
that say, okay, we grew up on that, but let's ask some
questions. Let's actually ask, you know, where are we right to decide
entirely with one person? And that's why I said, I think this is
Joel's village villain origin story in such a perfect way. Yeah, it's it
isn't in that he can't go back from it. He has made a choice
that might very well have very serious ramifications and consequences, and you know,
I don't think even with that, I don't think he'd regret it. And
that's okay, Like And that's the thing is that you can say I agree
with Joel, and that's fine. You don't have to give a reason why.
You don't have to defend him Vinda over backwards to defend him. You
can just say I would do the same thing if I was in his shoes.
And that's a very complicated thing, and both are very well, both
very easy and very complex. And one of my least favorite things that people
do is bring up whether or not the vaccine is actually possible, because that's
not the point of this story. The point is that Joel, regardless of
whether it's possible or not, he doesn't care. All he cares about is
Alie. And you could talk about that in a different context for the show
or for the story, but not when it comes to Joel's decision that doesn't
get him a check mark versus the fireflies because he doesn't care. I think
it's essential for Joel's decision, and it's also essential from her Lean's decision,
because she, whether this is true or not, she one percent believes that
it will work. Yeah, because I think if she thought this is a
chance, then I feel very differently about her decision. Yeah, But if
this to her is a binary rescue humanity versus the one girl's life. I
mean, all the ethical like you know, good quotes say that you save
the one person's life. And I think that's the point, is to say
that that is true in the abstract. Is it true here? I'm not.
And again I'm not saying I'm not saying I agree with Marlene, but
I'm saying I think that both her and Joel are in very understandable positions.
And to me, this is really a lesson about storytelling because the fact is
that we have become we have never had Marlene as a point of view character
the one scene where Aldie is born, and so we are naturally drawn to
sympathize much more with him. Yeah, I think you could make a totally
different story. And I don't want someone to do it right now because it
be obvious, But I think you can make a totally different story about it's
post apocalyptic world. You're a bounty hunter as the main character in the video
game or the chev show, and you're asked to go out and find this
person who stole the thing that's needed to save humanity. Yeah, and you've
dealt with Marline this whole time. At the very end you realize it's actually
a living person. What do you do. It's the same story, just
from a different perspective. Yeah, it absolutely is. And yeah, I'm
yeah, that's just what I love so much about this story. And I'm
really looking forward to season two and beyond because they've already said that Part two
will cover more than one season, and I'm intrigued to know how they're going
to approach this part of it and what they'll do, what they'll change,
what they'll keep the same. Again, I have so much trust in them
because they handled this, They handled Part one exquisitely, and yeah, I
have no doubt that season two will be equally as good, if not better.
And I and one thing I'm not looking forward to is the discourse because
if you thought this discourse was tiring, season two and beyond is going to
be even worse. Very much agreed, agreed, And like I said,
I'm gonna just play the game. There's no way I'm gonna go the whole
time boiled. So even the thing that Aaron mentioned about five years in the
future, I didn't know that we're gonna play the game. We're gonna play
the game. There's just two last things I want to bring up, and
then we'll go to any last things you want to bring up, and the
bonus content, one of which is this is just a small part, but
I thought it was so well foreshadowed again that I want to go back to
it. The comment about you know, Joel saying, you know, you're
a little bit girly, which is clearly not true. And there were two
moments that foreshadow of that I thought so well, one of which Joel was
literally there for. The one he's there for is the one where she finds
the diary of the girl who used to live in the house to staying in
and she's talking about like all these you know, girly things that the girl
was writing her, you know, about boys, what shirt would match with
what skirt, and what movies are out and like, to be clear,
I don't think the show is saying those are girly in a bad way,
and I'm I'm certainly not, but Ellie absolutely does. She this is bizarre.
Why would someone be interested in this? Yeah, and then also the
scene when Riley and Ellie are in the mall and they're both so baffled that
someone would want to wear that victorious ferette, and I think the easy thing
would be to be like, yeah, of course they're kids, no one,
but no, like young teenagers, some go in that direction and do
really want to wear that kind of stuff. And to me, those two
moments are both so clearly saying this is not who Ellie. Ellie is tom
boy is such an overused term, but it's like she's not the person who
Joel is making her out to be in order to form a connection in his
mind between her and Sarah. Yeah, which I think is interesting because I
think that because I'm of two minds about this, I don't think Joel views
Ellie as Sarah. I think that he may be a part of him needs
to after the hospital to justify what he's done, and maybe that's what we're
seeing. But I do think he would not have allowed himself to connect to
Ellie if she was like Sarah. I think he allows himself to connect with
her because she's a lot like him. Yeah, they are two sides of
the same coin, and that's where a lot of the conflict comes up at
what we see at the end. And you know, just like Joel is
willing to die for his purpose, Ellie just like he's willing to kill her
his purpose, so is Ellie. It's just that her purpose is different.
And I think he doesn't want to see that at the end. I think
he sees it before the hospital. I think he doesn't want to see it
after because that would force him to grapple with how he would react if someone
did that to him, right, and it wouldn't be good. And here's
where I think that tweet you made is so perfect, because with Sarah,
we very clearly saw him do things where Sarah wanted to put herself than them
in danger in order to like save someone or do something else, and he
clearly was able to be like, no, I am father, I get
to say that you don't do that. And in those cases, like I
think we agree with him for the most part, although some of like the
running people down in the truck, you're like, but you get it.
And I think that to me, it was two things. One is that
it's like he now wants her to be a little bit less like him and
a little more like Sarah, because that makes him being the father figure who
chose for her more. Okay. The other thing of those I think it
shows that he does know her very well, but he doesn't know her completely.
Yeah, and that it's that because if you really fully knew her,
he would knew she'd never be okay with it. Yeah, and he has
It's like, oh good, I'm just gonna say. He has to make
that separation now because he, like I said, I don't think that he'll
regret what he did, and in order to stay true to that, he
has to be like, I don't care what you say, I don't regret
what I did, and they're you know, what's what's that going to mean
for later? So there has to be that separation between them. There has
to be that more of a true and in a sence some sense that is
a true father daughter relationship, the you know, resisting against them deciding for
you and them saying, no, I did this for a reason you can't.
Maybe you can't see it now, but I truly believe that one day
you will. And I'm not saying that that's okay, and I'm not saying
that you know, you know, I'm not making excuses for it, but
I do think that's how Joel is viewing himself, and I think that he
does. He does love Ellie for who she is, and there's no question
about that. It's just they aren't right now after the hospital, aren't at
the same level with each other about that, I think, and that's what
makes it so difficult. I think it's so true. Last thing I want
to ask you is watching that episode with the religious group, the Cannibals,
who, as I said, cannibalism is one more thing where I'm like,
in dire circumstances, I someone't understand. Yeah, that's the least worst thing
that David did. Agree, But in a show that went to such lengths
and a game that went to such lengths to say, everybody is a huge
that if you look at things from each person's perspective, you can understand why
they don't see themselves as the villain. David felt out of place to me,
particularly at the very end when he's when they make insinuations that not only
is he like trying to like, you know, defeat Allie, but that
he may want to, you know, assault her in ways that are really
not okay. Ye to essay her. I understand the need to put that
in because I think it also helps to justify her reaction to it. Yeah,
and maybe that's why it's there. It felt to me a little bit
though, like they were making him a little bit more two dimensional than most
of the other villains we had seen or unquote villains. And I may have
just talked myself out of it as you realize that maybe you need it to
justify the terrible things, not terrible, but the way she acts to him.
But yeah, what was kind of your take on that. I think
that an interesting thing about David that makes him very terrifying is that he truly
believes everything he's saying. And in a sense, there there's a lot of
what he says that isn't a lie, like they are truths that he manipulates
to serve his purpose. And like the thing with Ellie having a what was
it, Oh my god, I can't remember that she has a ventraul heart
or a what was it? Was a ventral heart, I can't remember now,
And he tells her, he tells her that, and that's not actually
far from the truth, Like it doesn't make it her bad, but you
know, we do see at the end of the episode that she is capable
of violence and or she has a violent heart. That's what he says,
that she is capable of violence, and she sees that and that changes the
way she views herself. And then she has to grapple with the fact that
what David said has some truth to it, and that's a horrible thing to
have to grapple with. And when he says, if you don't find a
way to trust me, you will be on your own, that's the thesis
of the entire first part of the last of us. And so that's what
makes it terrifying, is that he uses truths to manipulate the people around him.
And I think that in some instances he's actually a foil of Joel.
He views himself as a father, he views himself as a protector. So
does Joel. And the difference between them is that Joel isn't a predator,
at least not in the same way that David is. He doesn't take advantage
of children the way that David does. And you know, he doesn't view
children as his equal the way that David does, which is a predator thing.
But they do have similar outlooks on who they are protectors. And Ellie
being so against that with David for absolutely understandable reasons, like she should,
is I think foreshadowing for how resistant she'll be to Joel trying to insert himself
into her life in that way, even if it is in a well intentioned
and not predator like way, And so I think that is his purpose in
this story. You can understand some of the things he says, like I
have in my notes that I think in the show there were parts where I
was like, you know, he's not wrong with what he says. I
don't agree with him. He's absolutely disgusting, a horrible person, but some
of these things he's say aren't wrong. And that's what's so dangerous about the
type of person like him is that he's capable of manipulating. He's capable of
making people see things from his point of view and then completely warping it and
turning it into something so gross and disgusting. I think it's really a good
way to put it, and that really helps, I think to kind of
put all of it and feel like, yeah, kind of why some of
the things that does, like it is all necessary to the larger picture of
his character. So for you, it's any of the last things you wanted
to bring up about the show. I mean, we could probably do a
whole ton of episodes on this show. But any of the last kind of
big questions you wanted to to make or points you wanted to point out,
I think it maybe just point out that I just really appreciate how much care
went into the creation of this adaptation, from every single aspect, behind the
scenes, in front of in front of the screen, they're in front of
the cameras. Everyone clearly cared so much about this And I feel like the
best example of that is having Ashley Johnson play Anna Ashley John's and voices Ellie
in the games, and she puts so much of herself into that character,
and she's talked at length about how much Ellie means to her and how represented
she feels through Ellie, and so to have her give birth to show Ellie
was so beautiful And I'm so indicative of just how much this adaptation cares about
its source material and that it's in the absolute best hands it could possibly be
in. And if if you didn't know that Ashley Johnson plays Ellie in the
game, I encourage you to go back and watch that scene with that knowledge,
and it makes me cry every time. Yeah, and it's and I
love it. I think that's kind of the pinnacle of it, but there
were so many of the voice actors from the original who played this, Like
Marlene is the same actress, and she says some beautiful things about it in
the making of and even there's one more example, but again, this is
how much care is put into it. The actor who voice acted Tommy,
he plays Perry, the kind of military person is the second in command in
Kansas City. And to me, there's an additional level of care there because
they realized they had cast Pedro pascal As as Joel, and so they're establishing
that that their family is, that their family's Latina. And so the guy
who played who played him Tommy, and the voice actor like, he's a
white person as far as he looked, he doesn't seem like he would fit
as Joel's brother. But instead they still said, what we want to have
a role for you. Let's not give you somebody else's role. Let's create
a role for you. Because so much that that happened in Kansas City is
created. And I just thought that was It's just it's such a small thing.
Tommy's not a huge part, Perry's not a huge part, but that
level of care for those two parts, and that one actor was just Star
Wars take notes, please me, And I just love I love how all
the voice actors were so supportive of the show. You know, the Jeffrey
Pierce who plays Perry and voices Tommy in the game, he says that he
has had he had long conversations with Gabriel Luna, who plays as Tommy in
the show, and they just you know, they had great conversations about it,
and he was fully supportive of this and was like, absolutely, he
was the right decision. And the same with Troy Baker. He has been
pro. Pascal's like big fan throughout all of this, and he talks a
lot on the podcast about choices Petrol has made for Joel that he was like,
man, I wish like I wish I had thought of that. I
wish that I had seen it that way. And that's why he is glad
someone else is playing him because he gets to see how things that he might
have missed about the character. And I think that's such a beautiful just you
know, willingness to work together as artists to tell the best story you can.
And I'm so glad that that's how they approach this. I'm horrible because
I forget the name of the voice actress who plays Ahsoka, but seeing the
conversations between her and um No Black the other Rosario Dawson, Rosario Dawson,
thank you, um Mango both ends. But her I was like, I
know it's rock No Rox and Dawson is voyager actress, um but yeah,
it's just it's it's because to me, it really holds a continuity of Yes,
the writers create these characters, but the actors, and that very much
include the voice actors, really bring them to life in such important ways.
And I know even there was some discussion about how the visual artists who went
into the game like that they spoke a lot with the people, the set
designers and stuff like that, and the costumers. Yeah, because it's the
same thing. It's like, you know, in the same way you're bringing
a voice actor's world to creation in live action, you're doing the same thing
with the sets and costumes. Yeah. All was beautiful. Well, Danielle,
thank you so much for me and a part of this. Um.
I can't imagine anyone more who wanted to have on for this show. And
we'll probably talk more about the show because we didn't even talk about Bill and
Frank and we will have a little bit in the bonus content just in a
few moments that will still be on this show. But till then, Danielle,
you've created so much great content in other places about this, about a
lot of what aren't two Star Wars things. Where can people find you?
I'm on TikTok at, written in the Star Wars twitter at Danny us three
ninety four and i have written an article for almost every episode of the Last
of Us on ti Ble of Geek, and it's just under my first name,
Danielle Great and for everybody who is taking so please check out all the
great things Danielle is doing, check out all the great things Aaron is doing.
And of course we'd love it you'd pay. We'd love it if you'd
check out, you know, all the things that the Ethical Panda is doing.
This show is an Ethical Panda creation, and that we also do the
Star Wars Universe podcast with great content with Danielle and Aaron that'll be out soon
about um the Bad Batch to be content coming out about Mandalorian and ording episode
by episode. Also a quick announcement that fans of superhero ethics may not know
this podcast is going to be moving from the Stranded Panda podcast network to the
True Story FM network. They're the folks who do Marvel Movie Minute. To
be clear, I dearly love some of my best friends and supporters are all
in Stranded Panda. They do incredible work. Ashley Coffin from the Stranded Panda
It's going to continue to be part of the Mandalorian. I'm sure I'm gonna
have Matt Carroll and Jeff randalon for various things. If this is not about
them at all, just in new direction for our shows. In terms of
you, the listener, it probably isn't going to matter at all. You'll
still get the same feeds, You'll still get the same places to give us
feedback. The Patreon program may be shifting to a membership program. I don't
know the details yet. Everyone who's paid things, you're still gonna get all
the same benefits. Nothing's going away. It may be that we're gonna keep
Patreon. It maybe that we're gonna just have the membership thing instead. All
that to be figured out, but I would say, well, I want
you to sign up for Patreon for the next couple of weeks, hold off
on pause. You can sign up as we get that figured out. But
we're going about but certainly, what do you think? There's so many good
questions here. We want to know what your thoughts. Nothing that's probably be
a feedback episode just about this, because there's so much great stuff that came
up. Please let us know. You can contact us on Facebook, Twitter,
TikTok, all those great places. So I'm out of myself, and
Danielle, thank you as much for tuning in. We have