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Hello, and welcome to this episode
of Superhero Ethics. As I said a

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while ago, we're not doing these
every week. We're gonna kind of bring

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them out about every two weeks.
But this week we've got a really great

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episode because the Last of Us is
finished up. Turns out that some interesting

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ethical choices were made by the end
of the season, and we have a

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lot to talk about. And so
we're back with myself, Aaron McGowan and

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Danielle Written in the Star Wars all
that morning after commercial break, we have

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no controller. Welcome back. This
is Matthew, your host. Then pronounced,

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I'll let my two guests introduce themselves. Aaron, Hi. Yeah,

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I'm Aaron McGowan, also known as
Lady Tano, creates on Instagram and TikTok.

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I'm usually on the Star Wars podcast
with Matthew talking about the Bad Batch,

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but I am here for I mean
a little bit. I have to

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dip out in about a half hour, and I'm sure you guys will keep

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talking, but I wanted to have
a little input about the Last of Us.

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I think we might go past a
half hours. There was one or

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two things to bring up, but
yeah, I'm really glad you can join

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us for at least that part.
Danielle, what about your tell? Yeah,

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I'm Danielle at written in the Star
Wars on TikTok and Danny s three

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nine four on Twitter. And I'm
so excited because the last of us is

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you know, just my jam.
I love it. Yeah, I'm so

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glad I have both you on to
talk about it. There's so much we're

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gonna get into. And I first
want to say, we're gonna have massive

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spoilers for both the game and the
show. And I just want to start

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the by congratulating Danielle, you especially, but also all the people who've played

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the game and been commenting on it, because I admit there were some things

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about like something Joel's gonna do something
big at the end of the season,

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but that and and and and a
couple and a couple of people commenting,

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uh, you know, I don't
always agree with Joel's choices, and Danielle

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you said that a bunch I kept
being like, well, what choices has

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he really made? That? Oh
oh um. But for the most part,

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the people who have played the whole
game, really I follow a bunch

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of you, and I wasn't spoiled, and I was completely taken aback by

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the end. And I do want
to start by saying that and and uses

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leading I kind of say, for
you, as someone who knew the game,

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had played the game many many times, and had strong emotional connections to

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it, what was it like watching
the show along with a bunch of people

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on social media and your friends who
hadn't played it before and who are experiencing

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it for the first time. It's
so hard because I, you know,

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I'm when I'm doing my analysis of
the things, I try not to let

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the fact that I know things that
are going to happen color my analysis of

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it, because ultimately, the show
does show things that the game doesn't,

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and the game shows things that the
show doesn't, And I want my analysis

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to always be something that is based
purely off of the medium that I'm judging

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right then, And so it's hard
not to not to say anything, and

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it's hard to, you know,
just not include that in things. But

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I'm so excited that there were so
many people who weren't spoiled, because I

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wanted to know what people's ideas were
about it based purely on the show and

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not off of the discourse that has
happened from the games that have been influenced

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a lot by Part two, which
of course I'm not going to talk about,

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but just you know, people's new
ideas and people's new approaches to it

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and what they thought of it.
So that was a lot of fun to

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experience. And Aaron, you have
not played the game, right, No,

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I'm not. I got a seven
minute rundown by one of my high

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school boyfriends, but that's about all
I know, and that was before the

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second game came out, So I
know nothing about the second game. Yeah,

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neither do I. I have downloaded
it, and I'm making puppy dog

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guys at my partner to ask her
to play it while I watch, because

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I trust you, Danielle. Personally, I don't trust Twitter to not spoil

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it over the next two years.
But there's so much to get into about

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this show, and I just want
to let's just start though at the end,

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because obviously it's a huge thing.
And I literally looked at my partner

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when it finished, who had also
been very good about not spoiling it because

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she's played the game and went we
spent this whole time watching a villain origin

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story. How did that happen?
And the idea of whether Joel or is

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a villain is a whole different topic
that we'll get into, and I'm not

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saying he necessarily is, but like, Aron, what was that like for

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you to get to that moment at
the end and be like it's so different

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than any expectation I might have had
or you might have seen it coming.

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I don't know. No. I
was really confused because a few days before

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I had googled, like, oh, is there going to be a season

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two? Because I didn't know there
was a second game? And then it

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was like, yeah, like there's
going to be a season two, and

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like, here's explaining why Bella Ramsey
is not going to be recast even though

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it's a five year jump, And
I was like, thank god, I

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would have really not wanted to watch
it if it wasn't Bella Ramsey. Yeah,

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and then it made some comment about
her character in the second game that

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really led me to believe that Joel
was going to die in that last episode.

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Like I I clearly read it wrong. You know, I stopped reading

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immediately. So they may have explained
or expanded on that later, but I

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just stopped reading immediately. And closed
the tab. But yeah, I thought

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Joel was a goner. So when
he went on his rampage through the hospital,

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I was like, he's gonna get
shot. And then when it was

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like he was holding Ellie and Marlene
was like had a gun on him,

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I was like, he's gonna get
shot. And then Marlene got shot and

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I was like this, I did
not see you coming hang on. Yeah,

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it really hit very hard. And
one of the things I think that

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I love so much about it.
We'll get it into Joel's character because I

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think that's that enter Danielle. It's
so important for you. But just the

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way that this show overall went against
every expectation that I think might have been

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set up for it so well,
especially because I think You See is very

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different than the game. I started
out thinking that one of the episodes I

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was going to do at the end
of the show was something with Professor Matthew

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of Howe, who's been on many
times about this sort of like the genre

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of Vampire verse zombie and why there's
like a generational shift. I would say

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that I ended this show thinking this
isn't really a zombie show. This is

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a humanity dealing with a horrible apocalypse
where the apocalypse happens to be zombies,

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and we'll give you a couple of
fun scenes of them fighting zombies. But

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like, this could be nuclear war
that they're all coming out of. This

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could be and they're all sick because
of radio Like this could have been.

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And so yeah, I was just
so in love with the idea that instead

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of just doing a zombie movie where
everything was gonna be about how to fight

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the zombies a TV show, it
really wound up being just about humans in

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a horrible situation and all the horrible
choices they have to make. Yeah,

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yeah, that's part of you know, is so enrapturing about the story itself

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and the game. It's not just
a good game. It's not just a

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good show. It's a good story. And if you have a good story,

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you can tell it in any medium
as long as you respect what is

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what that medium is best at,
you know, And I think that that's

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just what makes it so easy for
people to connect with too, because you

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know, yeah, there's there's these
infected who we don't have in our real

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life, but that's not the main
part of the story. The main part

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of the story is relationships. In
humanity and love and cycles of vengeance and

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violence that we experience already, And
so if we experience that already in our

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lives, how does that get amplified
in a post apocalyptic world? And that

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is what the story is about,
and I hope that that's what everyone who

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watched it, who maybe didn't play
the game gets from it. That there's

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not supposed to be really any heroes
or villains. There's it's just humans trying

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to deal with this shit hand that
they've been dal, and you know,

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that's the beauty and the tragedy of
it. Yeah, I agree. It's

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like, I guess I wasn't that
shocked with Joel's decision because he is not

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a hero. You know, he's
been made out as primarily a father and

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someone who's like willing to fight.
You know, we learned that him and

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Tommy used to murder people at the
start of this whole apocalypse just to get

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by, just to get supplies,
just to you know, whatever it was.

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And it's like, well, that's
not inexcusable. And Tommy, you

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know, makes that point about Joel
says, oh, we did bad things,

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and Tommy said, those were people
and we murdered them. Yeah,

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yeah, And I really liked that
moment, and so especially with the whole

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like Sarah and Ellie parallel just like
the way I understood it. I could

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be wrong, but basically Marlene was
like, yeah, we're gonna kill Ellie,

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but it's probably going to save the
world, And so Joel being like,

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absolutely not, I will kill all
of you to save her made complete

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sense to me because he's not a
hero. He's not someone who set out

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to save the world. He's someone
who's set out to get a truck battery,

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like that was his goal. He
never really cared about that. He

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even said to Ellie at the start
of this episode, you know, we

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can just go back to Tommy's.
We can live it out. You know

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it'll be okay, Like this may
or may not work. And she's the

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one who's kind of, yeah,
we came this far, like we have

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to see well, especially because and
I want to be clear, I'm starting

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out talking about how empathetic I am
and his decision. That's a very different

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conversation between do we agree with his
conversation, his decisions, and I think

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be talking about all of that,
but just further on the empathy of it.

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I rewatched most of the show last
night and this morning, and my

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god, is there's so much foreshadowing
if you know what's happening. That's a

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whole of thing we'll talk about.
But one of the things that really came

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through for me, now that I
kind of knew where the story was going

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to go, was that he does
not want to get attached to her.

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He fights it so hard, and
it's Bill leaving that note for him that

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that kind of opens him up.
It's the whole thing about like will be

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him or Tommy who takes her to
the university, which I don't understand why

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it wasn't both, But that's a
whole other story entirely. But there's all

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these ways which he fights so hard
not to get attached to her, and

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then he finally does, and he
lets his wall down and it all comes

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in, and then now they're asking
to take it away from him, like

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it. I don't love what he
did, but I feel like every single

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thing that could have been set up
to make him do that, to put

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him in a position where that the
only thing that would feel in character for

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him to do was done, it
was so well, Like I don't think

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he could have done anything else,
and I would have been like, oh,

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yeah, that's in character for Joel. H Yeah, absolutely, And

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I think what's so coming from someone
who has played the games a lot,

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and as much as I love Joel, Ellie is my first priority when it

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comes to how I feel about these
games. And I feel that way because

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of a lot of reasons. There's
a lot of really bad culture and the

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Last of Us fandom where Ellie gets
sidelined, a lot, her feelings get

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sidelined, her emotions, her desires, everything because people want Joel to be

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right. They want Joel to always
be right because they see themselves in Joel.

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And that's fine. But so anyway, I'm digressing, but I am

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in Ellie. Ellie is my first
priority always, and so it's been interesting

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to me to see that the main
conversation and the main thing that people are

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bringing up is whether or not Joel
was right to do what he did at

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the hospital, because I think that's
actually a kind of easy answer, or

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easy question to answer, because yeah, we would all do that. I

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think we all have people that we
would prioritize above anything else in this world,

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and that's just part of being human. And I think it's easy to

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look at that and say, yeah, I totally understand, I totally get

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why you would kill all these people
so that you could save this little girl.

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But what about What I always have
always been most interested in is what

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comes after that, which is his
lie to Ellie and what that means for

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their relationship, what that means to
Ellie. Because I've said this before,

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but Joel's purpose is Ellie right now. She is his world. Joel is

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not Ellie's purpose. Ellie's purpose was
her immunity and her ability to try and

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save people when she couldn't save them
before. And she has to watch them

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die knowing that she can't die from
the same things they can. And what

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happens when you lie to this person
about that, about how their purpose has

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ended and they know it too.
Ellie knows at the end that Joel is

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lying to her. She might not
know exactly what he's lying about, but

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she does know. And so I'm
always I've just been really intrigued that people

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talk a lot about the choice of
the hospital, which is fine. I

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think it's meant to make you uncomfortable, it's meant to make you question things,

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but far less discourse I think has
been happening around what happens after,

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which is, in my opinion,
far more important of a discussion. I

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think it is because it colors so
much of what he does, especially because

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and I there's a lot of discourse
online about toxic love and what that can

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look like. And I think it's
very easy to set that up as a

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binary, and I don't want to
do that at all. I think there

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is selfishness in all love, and
you can say toxicity plays in sometimes it,

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as he does, but it's not
a binary. Yeah, But I

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do think that there's a distinction between
loving someone because of who they are in

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your life and wanting to keep that
versus loving someone in a way that wants

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them to find their purpose, even
if it takes them away from you,

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you know, And like this is
you know, every parent does through this

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in terms of like, you know, wanting their child to find their their

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best life or even it means living, taking them away or I should say

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every parents or they does not always
work out that well. Forget every parent,

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you know, but you know what
I mean, same thing with like

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best friends, a romantic part.
You know, sometimes you can say that

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like you know, the thing that
my partner wants or my friend wants isn't

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what would be best for my relationship
with them, But I have to understand

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what that's what they wants. And
for me, so much of what that

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is saying is Joel knows that if
he tells her the truth, he will

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lose her. She won't die,
but he knows her well enough to know

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that she will be so mad that
she didn't get to choose. And again

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the foreshadowing as I went back and
watched, there's the scene where he's waiting

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with the horses and they're deciding if
it would be him or Tommy who takes

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her. And he doesn't say no, I'm going to take her. He

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says, I think Tommy would be
best, but I quote, you deserve

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a choice, And that line hits
so hard for me, knowing that later

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he's going to not only deny the
choice, but lie to her because he

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knows that she did deserve the choice, and she'll be so mad that she

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didn't get it. Here's the thing
with Joel. I love him, I

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love him so much and I will
defend him, but I will also criticize

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him. And the thing with him
is that he will allow choices, or

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he's most most likely to allow Ellie
a choice when he knows that her choice

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is going to align with what he
wants. And that's what we saw in

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episode six when he gives her the
choice. He knows Ellie's going to choose

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him over Tommy. He knows,
and so he gives her this choice knowing

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that she's going to choose him,
But a part of him is like,

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if she doesn't, then I'll accept
that. But if he had any doubt

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that she wouldn't, would he have
allowed her to make that choice? Do

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you know what I mean? And
so I think we're seeing the opposite of

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that at the end of the s
at the end of the season, because

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he doesn't know what she would do, or rather he knows how she would

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react, but he's terrified of what
she'll do. And because of that,

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I think that is what is keeping
him from being like, here's what I

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did. Now, what do you
want to do? After the things I've

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done? What do you want to
do? Because he doesn't know what she

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would choose, and he probably thinks
that it wouldn't be him, and even

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just that he would see it in
those terms that it would be because for

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her, I think it would be
choosing do I sacrifice myself? But he

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would see it as would she give
up on me? Yeah, in order

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to sacrifice herself to do all these
things. Yeah. What I will say

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speaking about like choices and them being
taken away from Ellie is we could have

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avoided this mess if Marlene had given
her the choice and not put her under

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and said we didn't tell her,
she won't feel a thing, but we're

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going to kill her. You couldn't
like if you believe, and then to

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turn around and say to Joel,
you know she'd want to do the thing.

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Well, Marlene, if you knew
that, you would have told her

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yes. So so this is where
one of the things that I wish they

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had included. And I think they
tried to um in the show with the

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very beginning and showing Marlene's relationship with
Anna and Um and and when she when

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she's having the conversation with Joel and
they take Joel away, Marlene's crying.

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There's there's a tear, and I
think that she does care about Ellie.

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And in my Temple of Geek,
not podcast, Temple of Geek article that

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I wrote about this finale, I
focus this on purpose and how the only

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thing these people have in this post
apocalyptic world is their purpose. What they've

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decided their purposes, that's all they
have to live for. And um Joel's

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purpose, as I've said, is
Ellie right now. He didn't have a

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purpose for a long time and then
Ellie came into his life and he has

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that purpose. Marlene's purpose is the
Fireflies and is the hope for a reinstated

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civilization, the hope for a cure
for humanity. That is what she has

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focused her purpose on. And the
difference between these two is that Joel's purpose

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is a person, Marlene's purpose is
an idea, and both of them will

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do whatever it takes and sacrifice whoever
it takes to reach that purpose. And

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I do think that the Fireflies not
allowing Ellie a choice was the very first

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mistake that was made here, and
it's absolutely horrible. And but one thing

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that's in the game that I'm hoping
they maybe go back and add in for

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season two is that Marlene struggles with
this choice more than anything because when she

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since Ellie with Joel, she doesn't
know that Ellie's going to have to die

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in order for them to have a
chance or a chance at the cure,

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and she doesn't know any of this, and it's not until they run the

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tests that the doctor decides all of
this, and Marlene struggles with it and

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she feels absolutely horrible about it.
There's these recordings in the game at the

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end of part one where you hear
her talking to Anna. She's talking to

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Anna into this recording and she is
absolutely devastated at the choice that she's making

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and she is failing. She says, I failed you, Anna, I

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failed you. You asked me to
save your daughter, and I'm failing you.

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But I have to do this because
there's no other way to save humanity.

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And so it's like, I can
see Marlene's perspective in wanting to save

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humanity. There's nothing wrong with that, and there's nothing wrong with Joel wanting

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to save Ellie. Where they both
make the mistake is them not allowing Ellie

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choice. So we're stuck in this
cycle of the Fireflies are the ones to

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instigate not allowing Ellie the choice.
Joel has a horrific but understandable reaction to

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that, and then he turns around
and does the exact same thing. To

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Ellie. He has the opportunity to
set it right and to say this is

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what was going to happen. This
is why I couldn't let them do it.

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You deserve a choice. And if
he was thinking you deserve a choice,

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then why didn't he ask her afterwards? It's because of all the horrible

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things he did. So it's this
vicious cycle you have here that one thing

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affects another affects another affects another,
and who is more responsible at this point,

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who is more to blame? And
I don't think there are easy answers

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to this, and everyone's going to
have a different answer to it. And

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that's the beauty of it to me. The beauty of the story is that

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it's not easy to answer these questions. Yeah, it is so well done,

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and it says so much about how
much how much the perspective that we

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have from the storyteller changes these things. Like I made the joke about this

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00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:10.400
being a villain origin story, and
to be clear, I didn't mean that.

299
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I think it's because Joel is objectively
a villain. I think it's because

300
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if you're telling this story from someone
else's perspective, then you know, if

301
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the story is that we could have
had a cure to fix humanity, but

302
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this guy, Joel, stole what
we need for the cure, and so

303
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your mission is to go get him, like and the hero does that but

304
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eventually asked to realize that actually the
guy had a very good reason for doing

305
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what he did, or like,
there's so many ways that a lot more

306
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modern stuff, especially in DC and
Marvel, we're getting more and more of

307
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these deeply relatable, deeply understandable villains. Sometimes where it's you totally agree with

308
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:55.279
the villains end goal, you just
disagree with his means, or often his

309
00:22:55.359 --> 00:22:59.599
could be any but often it's his
and that I think could apply to Joel,

310
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Or it's just that that this person's
the villain because we don't know their

311
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context, we don't know their story, and like it was just so wonderfully

312
00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:12.440
set up. I think such a
great commentary on this thing of because yet

313
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with the one exception of the pastor, I feel like every single character in

314
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this show I can understand that from
their point of view, they see themselves

315
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as the hero. You know,
and some of them I think are easier

316
00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:30.240
to relate to. Some are harder, But like even Kathleen, I think

317
00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:33.000
it's her name, the leader of
the Fireflies in Kansas City. Like,

318
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:38.359
I get where she's coming from,
even not the pastor himself. I think

319
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:42.200
clearly there's like a lot of bad
applications where he's going with Elliott. But

320
00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:45.880
like everyone else in his church,
they sent people out to try and get

321
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:49.119
food. One of their people was
killed. They have to do what they

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have to do, you know.
So yeah, I just it's it is

323
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just so powerful to me how they're
really playing on this idea of who's a

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00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:00.799
hero who is a villain, and
that from one person's point of view,

325
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:04.720
that who is a hero who is
a villain is entirely based on who's the

326
00:24:04.759 --> 00:24:10.720
person telling their story. Yeah,
everyone's a villain and someone else's story.

327
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:15.839
Yeah, and this just takes that
to the extreme very much. So,

328
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:22.880
yeah, very much. So.
So let's talk specifically about Joel first and

329
00:24:22.039 --> 00:24:26.680
his choices, and before you get
to use choices. One of the things

330
00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:30.720
that I rewatching it also made so
clear to me is that I was thinking

331
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about the mistakes Marlene made, and
I thought, definitely she makes a mistake

332
00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:41.319
in allowing Joel, not allowing Ellie
to make a choice. But also I

333
00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:45.599
felt like Marlene, how could you
be so stupid as to think you could

334
00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:49.119
tell Joel all this and he wouldn't
react exactly as he does. But then

335
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:53.640
when I went back and rewatched episode
one where he's like, Okay, this

336
00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:57.240
is Cargo, this is not a
person. I'll just transport her, I

337
00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:03.400
realized that detail is brilliant because it
again shows just how much he's changed and

338
00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:10.400
Marlene hasn't seen any of that.
Yeah. Yeah, I think she didn't

339
00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:14.440
expect him to get as attached as
he did because the only jewel she's ever

340
00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:18.880
known is the Joel post Sarah,
And when it comes to that, I

341
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think she I think he was probably
the one person she thought would do this

342
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:27.680
and be done with it by the
end, and she didn't account for the

343
00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:34.920
fact that because he was the father, this was going to be very difficult

344
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for him, and that was definitely
another mistake for her. But yeah,

345
00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:45.319
it's it's just so complicated because like
I talk about this and I don't.

346
00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:48.920
My favorite thing about this is that
it exists in a gray area, and

347
00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:55.920
it exists in something that, you
know, a world that we don't understand

348
00:25:56.200 --> 00:26:02.519
because it doesn't follow the same rules
that we have. And that's my favorite

349
00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:04.480
part about it, and I love
exploring that. But it's just so interesting

350
00:26:04.519 --> 00:26:12.880
to see every everyone one want to
pick a side, and I feel like

351
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:17.359
the Last of Us asks you,
like to question that, why do you

352
00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:21.000
have to pick a side? Why
do you have to say that this person

353
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:25.880
is acting better than this person?
And ask you to question that, like

354
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:29.200
why, why why do you do
that? Why do we inherently do that

355
00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:36.119
as humans? And I just love
that kind of philosophical you know, force

356
00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:37.720
that they have on there. It's
just like, this is going to make

357
00:26:37.720 --> 00:26:41.319
you uncomfortable, and we want it
to be We want you to not be

358
00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:45.759
in your comfort zone. When you
talk about this show, Yeah, I

359
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:48.039
think it's such a good way of
putting it. I think it's why it

360
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:52.920
is both perfect and terrible for this
show specifically, because this is all about

361
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exploring the ethical choices that heroes and
villains and all them make. And I

362
00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:00.680
think there is so much to explore. But the whole point like that,

363
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:03.640
if we were to come down and
be like, Okay, in the objective

364
00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:07.079
analysis, this character is right,
this character is wrong, this is the

365
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:11.960
ethical character, this is the unethical
character. We've completely missed the point of

366
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:14.960
the of the whole show and the
game and the ms of the game as

367
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:19.279
well. Yeah, it's and it's
it's just it's just interesting. I like

368
00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:25.039
seeing the way people engage with it
differently. Um I try not to get

369
00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:29.960
to because I can get very analytical
about it, and I know that that's

370
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:33.799
not everyone's thing. And I was
just like, that's just that's just how

371
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I am with this show. Like
I was talking to my boyfriend about it

372
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:40.759
and I was said, normally,
you have a scene like Joel going through

373
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the hospital or Joel in interrogating and
torturing those men in any other thing,

374
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I'd be like, yeah, get
them, get them. But I've experienced

375
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:52.480
this story so much and I've viewed
it from so many different angles that I'm

376
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:56.519
like, I just can't. I
can't do that anymore. I have to

377
00:27:56.599 --> 00:27:59.599
have a deeper look into it.
I have to be thinking about it differently,

378
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:03.599
and so it's nice to see other
people view it differently and remind me

379
00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:08.400
that that's how I was when I
first played the game. That's what my

380
00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:12.559
reaction was, and it's changed every
single time I've played it. Every single

381
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:18.160
time i'll watch it, probably I
find new perspective and I find something else

382
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:21.839
to it, And I think that's
what makes it such a good story that

383
00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:23.519
you can do that you can play
it so many times, watch it so

384
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:30.759
many times, and get something new
from it every single time. Yeah,

385
00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:33.640
I'm thinking, Okay, I'm horrible
with video games. I'm gonna be honest.

386
00:28:34.200 --> 00:28:40.160
I actually, over the weekend got
lunch with the same boyfriend, well

387
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:44.599
ex boyfriend, who first introduced me
to this game, and he also we

388
00:28:44.599 --> 00:28:49.000
were playing Arkham Asylum together before we
broke up, and it's been four years,

389
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:52.319
haven't seen him since. And we're
sitting there chatting and he's like,

390
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:56.000
I can promise you, like I
will bet money that you never finished Arkham

391
00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:00.480
Asylum, and I was like,
yeah, you're one hundred percent right,

392
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:03.720
Like, if I don't have another
person there with me, I'm not going

393
00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:07.440
to do it because if I'm just
sitting there by myself, I'm not very

394
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:11.240
good at video games. So I'm
going to get really frustrated when I can't

395
00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:14.880
solve all the little puzzles. And
so it's just like, I really want

396
00:29:14.920 --> 00:29:17.440
to get into this game, and
I think I'm going to have to give

397
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:21.559
video games another try, just to
see because as you've said, Daniel,

398
00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:26.319
there's so many little details that are
different in the game versus the show that

399
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:30.359
don't necessarily make one better than the
other, but it just changes it.

400
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:37.079
Yeah, So I'd love to like
actually see that and understand it the way

401
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:40.960
you do. You don't get that
other perspective. Yeah, And I definitely

402
00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:45.000
share that attitude with you about about
the about playing games and really about watching

403
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:47.759
things in general. And I think
this is I'm so glad you've also found

404
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:49.880
your way to the world of podcasting, because the joke Offen is that a

405
00:29:49.960 --> 00:29:53.599
podcaster is a person who says,
what's the point in having a thought if

406
00:29:53.599 --> 00:30:04.599
I can't share it with someone?
But yeah, yeah, the discussions about

407
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:07.480
it are so good because the things
you said and yell it raises all these

408
00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:11.920
questions for ourselves about you know,
what is love? What you know,

409
00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:15.240
what is the degree you would go
to for love? Because one thing that

410
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:19.480
really struck me and the moment where
I started to feel incredibly uncomfortable and started

411
00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:26.079
to really be like I think I
get now what is off about Joel's relationship

412
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:30.640
with Ellie is the scene where he's
talking about how much Ellie and Sarah would

413
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:36.640
like each other because one of the
things I thought was important was how much

414
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:41.319
in his head she is not Sarah. She is not going to be like

415
00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:45.720
Sarah. They are so different.
And maybe they would have liked each other.

416
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:51.880
I don't know if they would have, and maybe they would have,

417
00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:56.880
you never know. They certainly have
Joel in common, but the degree to

418
00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:00.200
which he seemed to be forcing that
and she was clearly comfortable and he was

419
00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:03.720
kind of going on with it.
What did you all think of that scene?

420
00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:08.880
Because to me, it really read
as this is him getting to the

421
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:15.000
point where he's no longer fully seeing
Ellie as her. He's slotting her into

422
00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:18.160
the hole that's been left in his
life since Sarah was killed. And that's

423
00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:22.359
an overgeneralization, to be sure,
but kind of here's what you all saw

424
00:31:22.359 --> 00:31:26.880
in that. Yeah, I was
watching it and I was like, Okay,

425
00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:30.720
this is kind of interesting, like
weird way to go right after this,

426
00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:33.400
but like, I mean, yeah, I guess it makes sense.

427
00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:38.480
He's feeling better, he's feeling like
he's secured the safety of his new daughter,

428
00:31:38.599 --> 00:31:42.839
figure he's probably going to be thinking
about his original daughter, his blood

429
00:31:42.920 --> 00:31:45.799
daughter, so I guess like it
makes sense for him to bring it up.

430
00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:51.480
But yeah, Ellie was kind of
clearly like, yeah, it doesn't

431
00:31:51.519 --> 00:31:52.920
really. He was like not to
say you're not girly, and she's like,

432
00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:57.240
I'm not. You know that you
can just say that, like we're

433
00:31:57.319 --> 00:32:02.039
so different. And then when it
just ended like that, I was just

434
00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:07.400
like, oh, Like it was
like a little like punch in the stomach,

435
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:08.599
Like I thought we were going to
get a little more resolution, a

436
00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:13.599
little more of this, but it
really just ended on him lying to her

437
00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:17.920
face. And it puts this horrible
feeling deep in your stomach of how that's

438
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:22.920
going to come back in season two. Because Ellie is strong willed, she's

439
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:25.599
independent, and she doesn't like people
making choices for her. Yeah, and

440
00:32:25.640 --> 00:32:30.880
I think she's I mean, as
David the Cannibal pointed out, she has

441
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:34.039
a little bit of a violent heart. She kind of wants vengeance. Like

442
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.400
I don't believe that makes her a
bad person or anything negative like that,

443
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:43.039
but she is the type to get
revenge and want revenge, and so this

444
00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:45.880
she could pull a full one eighty
on Joel. I don't want to see

445
00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:50.920
that, but I think that might
be how the second season goes because something

446
00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:58.119
so important being kept from her and
being lied to about it by the person

447
00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:01.799
she trusts the most, Like,
Yeah, I don't want to see the

448
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:06.559
second season be like Joel versus Elie
or like Ellie trying to hunt Joel or

449
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:13.440
anything like that, but it wouldn't
shock me either. Yeah, yeah,

450
00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:16.160
I that whole scene. I'm glad
you brought it up, Matthew, because

451
00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:21.759
it is so interesting. In the
show, they dig a bit more they

452
00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:23.920
have they make Joel talk about Sarah
a bit more in the show than in

453
00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:28.759
the game. He still does in
that same way, but they add to

454
00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:32.720
it, and I think that was
a brilliant choice because it really does show

455
00:33:34.359 --> 00:33:37.559
that Ellie is not on the same
level as him with this. And I

456
00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:44.319
was thinking last night, and I
tweeted about this about how Joel has the

457
00:33:44.359 --> 00:33:49.759
experience of a father. It is
very natural for him to have a child

458
00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:53.200
that he's supposed to protect and put
her in the slot of daughter. And

459
00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:57.279
I don't think that means he views
her the same as Sarah, but I

460
00:33:57.279 --> 00:34:00.559
think he does view her as a
daughter, and that's natural to him and

461
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:04.640
it makes sense. And therefore,
because she's his daughter, he has a

462
00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:07.599
right to certain things about her.
He has a right to know what's best

463
00:34:07.639 --> 00:34:12.760
for her. He has a right
to make choices in her best interests.

464
00:34:12.760 --> 00:34:17.239
He truly believes that, I think. And Ellie, meanwhile, has never

465
00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:23.000
been someone's child except for when she
was a few minutes old, and she

466
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:28.559
doesn't remember that, she has no
recollection of that, And she has had

467
00:34:28.599 --> 00:34:34.000
to spend her entire life up to
this point making choices for herself, putting

468
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:37.960
herself for not putting herself first,
but you know, deciding what is best

469
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:44.559
for her, And all of a
sudden along comes this guy who she wants

470
00:34:44.679 --> 00:34:50.280
and likes that he protects her.
But protecting allowing someone to protect you isn't

471
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:53.800
the same as agreeing that they can
have they can have a say and what

472
00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:59.800
your best interests are. And I
think this is where a lot of people

473
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:05.719
times don't see what's happening here.
That they want Joel and Ellie to be

474
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:09.440
father daughter so badly, and they
can be, but not in the same

475
00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:16.000
type of way that a father daughter
who have had this long history together would

476
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:22.440
be. Because Sarah would accept that
Joel is this way. She knows because

477
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:27.360
she lived that, but Ellie hasn't. That's not her experience. And so

478
00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:32.519
when people say that even if she
was given the choice because of her age

479
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:37.039
or because of the traumatic experiences she's
been through, that that choice wouldn't be

480
00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:44.320
a good one, or it wouldn't
be consensual because she's it's being affected by

481
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:50.320
all these things. I don't like
that because it discounts her experiences. It

482
00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:55.760
discounts the fact that she has been
through so much even before Joel entered her

483
00:35:55.800 --> 00:36:00.599
life. So who is Joel to
be the best person to decide for her?

484
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:05.119
Yeah? I love the way you
put that, And I've been thinking

485
00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:09.239
about this ever since you tweeted that
because it's such a good point, because

486
00:36:10.519 --> 00:36:16.320
let's take you know, imagine all
other things are normal in any other context.

487
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:23.239
If a father said my child wanted
to die to further a cause they

488
00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:30.280
believed in at page fourteen, and
I forbid them from doing so, I

489
00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:34.800
think, like I am very much
on the side of let kids decide.

490
00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:37.639
Even there though I'm probably coming down
on the side of the parent being like,

491
00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:42.239
yeah, you're not going to allow
yourself a kid to end their life

492
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:46.400
in that way for a reason they
believe in. But as you said,

493
00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:51.920
all the situate, the fact that
it is literally all of humanity against this

494
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:55.000
one life somebody. I'm not saying
that that's an easy equation, but just

495
00:36:55.159 --> 00:36:59.000
you know, that's a part of
it that Ellie's been through all of this,

496
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:01.599
that Ellie has this guilt about you
know, the people who die.

497
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:07.000
She is survivor's guilt quite literally.
Um, yeah, it's that. I

498
00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:10.760
think this is you get why his
perspective is, of course, I'm not

499
00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:15.719
going to let my child end their
life. But he can't see all of

500
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:19.840
that because I think this is the
point where he's no longer seeing her for

501
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:23.440
her. He wants, he wants
her to be Ellie. I think in

502
00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:28.360
some ways that's the hardest part is
that I think one of the things that

503
00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:30.920
bonds them is they both have their
survivor's guilt. Yeah, you know that's

504
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:35.719
part of why he I think,
want I agree with you before that he

505
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:39.960
wants he knows she'll choose him over
Tommy. But I think part of why

506
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:45.239
he needs that is because he feels
that if he chooses it and he fails,

507
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:47.679
then it's all his fault, and
then she chooses it, it's someone

508
00:37:47.719 --> 00:37:52.079
absolves him of that. Yeah,
that's a good point. Yeah, kind

509
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:57.440
of going back to what you were
saying, Danielle about like the whole father

510
00:37:57.559 --> 00:38:01.800
daughter dynamic. I think it's really
true and interesting that it's like, yeah,

511
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:06.039
Joel had a daughter and lost it. Therefore he has a hole in

512
00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:10.639
his life he's not looking to fill, but he's kind of been forced to

513
00:38:10.679 --> 00:38:15.920
fill until he did accept it,
you know. But Ellie didn't have a

514
00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:20.280
father. She doesn't need a slot
to fill or a hole to fill because

515
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:25.320
she's never had that type of energy
or relationship in her life. And so

516
00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:30.039
I think it's really true what you're
saying about, like it's starting to feel

517
00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:34.440
forced, and it's starting to feel
more for Joel than it is for Ellie

518
00:38:34.519 --> 00:38:39.639
because she just needs him as like
a strong figure of friends, someone she

519
00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:45.360
can trust, someone who can protect
her. But she doesn't need him necessarily

520
00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:50.119
to be parenting her or to be
telling her how to make decisions and choices,

521
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:53.360
because she's been doing that her whole
life. Yeah, I think for

522
00:38:53.440 --> 00:39:00.559
her, her feeling over him possibly
leaving her when he wants to send her

523
00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:05.880
with Tommy and her feeling that Riley
has left her is very, very similar,

524
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:08.239
and that's helpful because it shows that
for her, he's not in this

525
00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:14.079
fundament. You know, it's not
that Riley's best friend crush, and crush

526
00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:19.519
is almost way too young bad a
word, it's not you know what I

527
00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:22.719
mean, the young love, best
friend, etc. And He's parents that

528
00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:28.119
these are two people who are both
very important to me, and both of

529
00:39:28.119 --> 00:39:30.880
them for a time at least,
I thought we're going to abandon me.

530
00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:35.960
Yeah, yeah, I think that. It's just it's just so interesting the

531
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:40.239
way Ellie views the people in her
life and the way she views being alone.

532
00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:45.400
And I saw someone on TikTok make
a really good point about how when

533
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:51.400
she says okay, there's so many
levels to that okay. I view it

534
00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:55.039
as being like herving like a acceptance, but not in a good way.

535
00:39:55.199 --> 00:40:00.559
It's accepting that he's lying to her
about something and that he probably did something

536
00:40:00.599 --> 00:40:05.800
horrible, and that their relationship isn't
going to be the same after this.

537
00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:09.760
And she's gonna go with him anyway, because one, she does love him.

538
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:13.599
She does, I don't think that
that is like in question. She

539
00:40:13.639 --> 00:40:17.239
does love him. But two,
she doesn't want to be alone. Her

540
00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:22.639
biggest fear is being alone. And
if she pushes Joel to tell her the

541
00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:25.679
truth anymore after this and he does, what is she going to do?

542
00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:30.719
She's going to go off on her
own and her worst fear be realized.

543
00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:36.679
Is she gonna stop talking to him? And you know, it's just it's

544
00:40:36.760 --> 00:40:42.920
like all of that, like accepting
that he isn't the person she thought he

545
00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:47.679
was anymore. Yeah, one more
thing in the foreshadowing that again I missed

546
00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:51.679
the first time, but going back
to the episode, after they've been to

547
00:40:51.679 --> 00:40:57.079
the university and he's been stabbed,
he's telling her go take care of yourself,

548
00:40:57.480 --> 00:41:00.760
and she almost does, but then
stops, in part because remembers Riley,

549
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:05.119
and she decides like and she knows
she is the possibly the key to

550
00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:08.880
saving this and that she's putting herself
in danger. And in the I hadn't

551
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:13.239
watched any of the after credits type
stuff because I don't want to get spoiled,

552
00:41:13.239 --> 00:41:15.599
but I watched it this time,
and Neo the writer said about that

553
00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:20.760
moment, the person she loves most
in this world is Joel, and she'll

554
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:25.480
do anything she can to save him. And I think that's part of why

555
00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:30.559
it's not for her an easy decision
of he's lying to me, therefore I

556
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:36.159
leave him. Yeah. I think
I think she is going to be angry

557
00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:38.440
that he's lying when she finds out. She's gonna be angry that he took

558
00:41:38.440 --> 00:41:43.599
the choice away from her, But
I think she also can understand that idea

559
00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:45.440
of I will do anything to save
you, because I think that's where she

560
00:41:45.559 --> 00:41:52.559
was too. Yeah, it's like
similar situations. Just the Joel's choice,

561
00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:55.519
you know, is obviously more detrimental
to society. It's a bigger choice.

562
00:41:57.280 --> 00:42:00.559
Like for Ellie it was do I
stay here and possibly die with him or

563
00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:04.360
do I run back to Tommy,
And she chose, you know, to

564
00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:07.880
save him because that's what was important
to her, and Joel just the same

565
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:10.599
thing, just want to save her
because that's what's important to him. But

566
00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:16.239
he had to kill like twenty people
to do it, Yeah, and take

567
00:42:16.360 --> 00:42:22.320
this possible cure away from the world. So yeah, it's like I can

568
00:42:22.360 --> 00:42:25.599
see how it's similar, so that
he can draw the connection to almost make

569
00:42:25.639 --> 00:42:30.480
an excuse or make himself feel better, but it's also different enough that of

570
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:36.639
course Ellie's going to be furious.
Yeah. With that, I do have

571
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:40.079
to get going. I really really
wish I could stay here and talk with

572
00:42:40.119 --> 00:42:44.400
you guys, but I will wait
patiently till the episode comes out, and

573
00:42:44.440 --> 00:42:46.760
I will listen to the rest of
it. We'll just quickly for those who

574
00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:50.079
are hearing you and they don't hear
you on Star Wars, they want to

575
00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:52.840
know more about you, give us
just the twenty seconds where to find you.

576
00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:57.480
Okay. I do cosplay on the
side. That is my contribution to

577
00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:00.760
the world. I am under the
tag Lady Tonnell Create. It's on Instagram

578
00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:02.840
and TikTok. TikTok. I do
a lot of like the building of and

579
00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:07.239
some like thoughts about bad Batch and
just random things like that. Instagram also

580
00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:10.679
some building of but I also post
more like events and things like that that

581
00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:15.360
I've done. Um but yeah,
Also, my TikTok has like over one

582
00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:21.920
hundred followers more than my Instagram.
So if you guys want to show me

583
00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:24.480
some love on Instagram, I would
appreciate it. I actually have two of

584
00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:28.920
my favorite German cos players following me
on there. They both have like thirty

585
00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:34.760
thousand followers, and I was like
so blessed to be here. So if

586
00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:37.360
they like me, hopefully you guys
would like me on Instagram too. With

587
00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:45.440
that, I will go of course
by Danielle. So in the conversation we

588
00:43:45.480 --> 00:43:49.519
were just having, I think is
a great segue. Could you talk about

589
00:43:49.559 --> 00:43:53.440
how in some ways, like defending
Joel's choice to save her is kind of

590
00:43:53.480 --> 00:43:59.079
easy, and I want to look
from the other side because I think I'm

591
00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:07.559
a little bit of a morley An
apologist, right, And there's all of

592
00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:10.320
this literature and I think very good
reason that talks about the idea that like

593
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:16.000
choosing to sacrifice one person for the
greater good of all is a very dangerous

594
00:44:16.039 --> 00:44:22.000
road to go down. And another
person why I follow on Twitter, I

595
00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:23.880
forget who it is the moment I'll
try and retweet their tweet. In connection

596
00:44:23.880 --> 00:44:28.760
to this, pointed out that in
The Song of Ice and Fire, both

597
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:31.840
the TV shows and the books,
there's this great scene where Status they're talking

598
00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:37.960
about like how they think they can
sacrifice this boy to save the kingdom,

599
00:44:37.639 --> 00:44:40.400
and he says, you know,
what is the life of one bastard boy

600
00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:46.519
against an entire kingdom? And Davos
replies everything, Yeah, And that's in

601
00:44:46.519 --> 00:44:50.039
a situation in part because I think
we have good reason to know that it

602
00:44:50.079 --> 00:44:52.800
won't work. But I think like
that general attitude of you always save the

603
00:44:52.840 --> 00:45:01.039
individual holds so much merit, but
I feel like it again pushing against expectations.

604
00:45:04.679 --> 00:45:07.480
If I don't have the emotional connection
to Ellie that I do having watched

605
00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:13.840
the whole show. I hate the
idea that you have to kill this child

606
00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:17.840
without them knowing it. And I
could understand if those people were like,

607
00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:22.360
that was a horrible choice we had
to make. It wasn't the right it

608
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:23.679
wasn't a good choice, it wasn't
the ethical choice, but it might have

609
00:45:23.719 --> 00:45:30.800
been the necessary choice. I hope
to God I can never be in that

610
00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:35.440
position so that I can stand in
my nice eyory tower and judge them.

611
00:45:35.599 --> 00:45:39.480
But I feel like I can really
understand why they made that decision and not

612
00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:45.800
entirely but somewhat defended. Yeah,
Like I said, this is why viewing

613
00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:50.199
all of this from the perspective of
everyone having a purpose is so important in

614
00:45:50.239 --> 00:45:57.320
my opinion, because no one's purpose
except for David the Cannibals, is inherently

615
00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:00.840
wrong. You know. I guess
maybe even David's purpose and inherently wrong.

616
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:04.440
He makes it wrong by the choices
that he goes about trying to fulfill it.

617
00:46:05.880 --> 00:46:09.320
But like I said, there's nothing
wrong with wanting to save the world.

618
00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:17.239
There's nothing wrong with wanting to end
horror for everybody. And if that's

619
00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:21.599
your purpose, if that's what gets
you through. Then I can completely understand

620
00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:24.079
that. And that is it for
Marlene. And I hate when people say

621
00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:30.239
that she's this villain and she's this
you know, evil person who took away

622
00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:36.920
Ellie's choice, because if you view
it from her perspective, Ellie is the

623
00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:40.960
last thing that she has of her
best friend. Her and Anna knew each

624
00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:47.079
other their entire lives, and I
think people lessen just how seriously Marlene took

625
00:46:49.400 --> 00:46:52.199
Anna asking her to save Ellie,
because people will say, oh, she

626
00:46:52.280 --> 00:46:57.000
just dropped her off with Fedra.
Fedra was the safest place for Ellie to

627
00:46:57.079 --> 00:47:01.480
be because Marlene can't leave the Firefly, She can't leave her purpose for Ellie,

628
00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:06.039
and maybe someone else would, but
that's not who Marlene is, and

629
00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:09.480
I don't think that makes her a
horrible person, but she and she also

630
00:47:09.559 --> 00:47:14.440
can't take care of Ellie while she's
in the Fireflies because Ellie would have to

631
00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:20.079
become a part of the Fireflies,
and we know that Riley asked Marlene if

632
00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:23.559
Ellie could join her and Marlene said
no. And I think in the game

633
00:47:23.559 --> 00:47:30.280
it's made a little bit more clear
that it's because Marlene doesn't want to risk

634
00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:36.000
Ellie's life. She would have to
put Ellie in life or death situations and

635
00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:39.559
she doesn't want to do that.
And a mistake I think I think they

636
00:47:39.639 --> 00:47:45.960
made in the show was not putting
in the way it is in the game

637
00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:52.119
that Marlene and Ellie know each other
before what happens with Riley. They've met

638
00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:57.360
each other. Ellie knows that Marlene
knew her mother. She knows that she

639
00:47:57.400 --> 00:48:00.800
got the letter and the knife from
Marlene and all these things, So they

640
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:07.000
have a relationship before that, and
I think that would have been beneficial to

641
00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:10.679
put in the show, yeah,
because it adds another layer there that Marlene

642
00:48:10.719 --> 00:48:15.280
has been looking over Ellie her entire
life. And I also wonder is the

643
00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:21.000
reason Marlene stayed in the Boston QZ
so she could keep an eye on Ellie

644
00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:25.000
because we see that the fireflies move
constantly, that they were going to send

645
00:48:25.079 --> 00:48:30.199
Riley off to a different QUZ.
And why why has Marlene stayed for fourteen

646
00:48:30.280 --> 00:48:35.599
years in this Boston QZ when it's
not really done anything to help them?

647
00:48:36.800 --> 00:48:42.239
But what's the denominator there? Ellie's
there? And I think that's also true.

648
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:45.719
Sorry, oh no, it's okay. I just was saying and then

649
00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:51.519
the minute that Ellie's no longer,
there is Marlene traveling with her, wanting

650
00:48:51.559 --> 00:48:53.239
to, you know, get her
somewhere else. And so I think that

651
00:48:53.400 --> 00:49:00.159
people really lessen marlene stake in Ellie's
life. I think it's also true.

652
00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:04.760
And going back again in the first
episode, they do make a bunch of

653
00:49:04.760 --> 00:49:07.239
references to it. You know,
there's a line where Allie says, you

654
00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:09.559
know, oh, you're gonna leave
me with a bunch of terrorists talking about

655
00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:14.719
the fireflies, and Marlene says,
was Riley a terrorist? And of course

656
00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:15.880
we don't know what that means if
you haven't played the game, and I

657
00:49:15.880 --> 00:49:19.679
would be watching, I'm like,
oh, I see that. And there

658
00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:24.440
are a couple other of those moments, and I think also I remember being

659
00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:29.199
surprised that Marlene was still alive,
and I went back something again, I

660
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:35.320
noticing the rewatch is at one point, like Ellie and I'm sorry, Joel

661
00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:39.840
and Tess are debating if they're going
to take Ellie again, And the line

662
00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:44.159
that I think establishes her character so
well, Marlene says, can you hurry

663
00:49:44.239 --> 00:49:49.719
up? I'm bleeding out over here
because she's been shot, And I think,

664
00:49:49.920 --> 00:49:52.440
not only are we supposed to be
a bit surprised that Marlene lived.

665
00:49:52.760 --> 00:49:54.639
I think part of the implication there
is that Marlene is convinced she's going to

666
00:49:54.719 --> 00:49:59.440
die at this wound, and that
that's part of because that the only reason

667
00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:04.480
she would that go of a yeah, yeah. And I think that it

668
00:50:04.519 --> 00:50:09.159
also says a lot that Marlene didn't
shoot her as soon as she found her

669
00:50:09.199 --> 00:50:13.960
and saw that she was bit.
Some people might think, oh, she's

670
00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:17.599
making the connections that she knows that
Anna was bit before Ellie was born,

671
00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:23.199
before she cut the umbilical cord,
she knows that maybe this is a cure,

672
00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:27.599
or maybe this is something we haven't
seen before. But I think it

673
00:50:27.679 --> 00:50:32.480
was probably I killed my best friend. I can't kill her daughter too.

674
00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:37.320
And the irony of that is is
that then she was forced to make the

675
00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:44.320
choice to do it, and you
can't help. But wonder of like if

676
00:50:44.360 --> 00:50:52.000
Marlene had refused the fireflies and the
doctor, what would have happened? Would

677
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:58.400
they have killed her? And then
no one would have told Jill, and

678
00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:00.000
no one would have done any of
these things. And so I think a

679
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:07.800
lot of hate is put on Marlene
unfairly. She's just a human trying to

680
00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:12.960
again, fight for her purpose and
do the best she can. So what

681
00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:15.800
you just said also led me to
a whole other connection, which, as

682
00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:20.400
I said, at first, I
thought Marlene should wait until the procedure is

683
00:51:20.440 --> 00:51:24.199
over and then just tell Joel I'm
so sorry she died during the procedure.

684
00:51:24.199 --> 00:51:29.760
It was tragic. And I think
though, that you just pointed out one

685
00:51:29.800 --> 00:51:32.599
other, very good reason why she
does it. I think she really needs

686
00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:36.960
him to also acknowledge that. I
think she needs him to acknowledge he made

687
00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:39.360
she made them rejoice, or that
she needs someone else to know. Yeah,

688
00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:42.679
because I think you're right. I
think she is wrestling with us.

689
00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:46.400
I think some part of her,
like if it was random kid, I

690
00:51:46.400 --> 00:51:49.960
think she's a decent person that she
wouldn't be like yes laughter, or an

691
00:51:49.960 --> 00:51:52.719
eight year old there, or a
fourteen year old whatever. But I think

692
00:51:52.760 --> 00:51:54.960
it would be so much easier for
her if it wasn't the kid who was

693
00:51:55.519 --> 00:52:00.719
her connection to her best friend,
and the kid should promise to protect Yeah.

694
00:52:00.800 --> 00:52:04.880
Yeah, because she didn't have to
tell Joel you're right. And I

695
00:52:04.920 --> 00:52:07.639
think that gets left out a lot
because I don't talk about that a lot

696
00:52:07.719 --> 00:52:12.159
either in my discourse. But yeah, she didn't have to tell him then

697
00:52:12.159 --> 00:52:15.719
and there, but she does,
and so I have to think clearly.

698
00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:19.039
There's when I analyze the media,
I'm like, Okay, if this is

699
00:52:19.079 --> 00:52:22.360
happening and I'm wondering about it,
then I'm going to assume that the creators

700
00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:25.519
did it with a purpose and they
want it to mean something. So what

701
00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:30.719
does that mean here? And yeah, that is who's the other only other

702
00:52:30.760 --> 00:52:36.119
person in the world who would understand
what she's feeling. She sees that that's

703
00:52:36.199 --> 00:52:39.679
Joel. She knows the risk in
telling him, but she tells him anyway.

704
00:52:40.039 --> 00:52:45.119
And just like she says when he's
like, you don't understand, she's

705
00:52:45.199 --> 00:52:49.599
no, I do. Actually I
was there when she was born. I

706
00:52:49.679 --> 00:52:52.199
killed her mother, and I shouldn't
say that, but I promised her that

707
00:52:52.239 --> 00:52:57.719
I would save her daughter. And
I'm the only person right now who actually

708
00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:02.199
does understand what this means. And
that's why I always say, and when

709
00:53:02.199 --> 00:53:06.519
I discuss Marlene is that she didn't
care about Ellie less than Joel. She

710
00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:10.400
cared about her differently, but that
doesn't mean that she cared about her less.

711
00:53:14.199 --> 00:53:15.039
Yeah, I think it's so you
good way to put it, and

712
00:53:16.400 --> 00:53:21.599
you know, in essence what the
show is creating as a trolley problem,

713
00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:27.119
and I think, like all trolley
problems, it is always possible to nitpick

714
00:53:27.159 --> 00:53:29.719
it, you know, because I
think we could say, why didn't she

715
00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:32.559
just like the minute she saw Joel
was upset, say oh well, let's

716
00:53:32.599 --> 00:53:36.320
just let's let's pause, wake her
up, see if she agrees, or

717
00:53:36.519 --> 00:53:38.480
why didn't Joel did hold the gun
at her and say you have to wake

718
00:53:38.519 --> 00:53:43.719
her up right now, you know? Instead? And I think that as

719
00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:46.760
a philosopher, yeah, that sounds
very pretending. As someone who's studied philosophy

720
00:53:46.760 --> 00:53:51.920
and ethics and likes to use those
veins to look at these shows, I

721
00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:54.559
think we can always do that.
We can always find a loophole that would

722
00:53:54.599 --> 00:54:00.119
prevent the difficult ethical choice. And
I love the show doesn't do that.

723
00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:06.559
I love because it would have been
possible for him to rescue her. Like

724
00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:12.320
to some extent, it is always
possible to say, we're not going to

725
00:54:12.360 --> 00:54:15.119
do this without her choosing, but
we're going to let her choose, and

726
00:54:15.159 --> 00:54:17.599
then if she chooses it, I'll
be okay with it. But it is

727
00:54:17.599 --> 00:54:22.199
two things that close that forever.
One he kills the doctor and maybe other

728
00:54:22.280 --> 00:54:25.599
doctors know this, but we don't
know, and too, he doesn't give

729
00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:29.000
her a choice. Yeah, you
know, and like a lot of other

730
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:32.079
shows would do that as a way
to sidestep the difficult issue. And I

731
00:54:32.159 --> 00:54:36.320
just love us so much that it
just takes us to that issue. And

732
00:54:37.519 --> 00:54:39.960
I don't I feel like anyone who
could just clearly say Joel was right or

733
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:43.920
Marlene was right, or any if
you can come away with this with any

734
00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:46.079
kind of easy ethical perspective, I
think you haven't really understood the show,

735
00:54:46.280 --> 00:54:52.119
yes, exactly. And I know
I get so into this, and this

736
00:54:52.239 --> 00:54:54.039
is why I really I made a
TikTok a long time ago when they first

737
00:54:54.039 --> 00:54:57.360
announced the show, and I was
like, this is going to be my

738
00:54:57.440 --> 00:55:00.440
joker. Y'all don't understand, because
this is how I am with the and

739
00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:06.719
it truly has become that because I
hate when people polarize these decisions because that's

740
00:55:07.360 --> 00:55:12.760
fundamentally against what the show asks you
to do. And I know this sounds

741
00:55:12.840 --> 00:55:15.679
ridiculous saying this, but every time
I see that, I'm just like,

742
00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:20.599
it feels disrespectful to the show,
because disrespectful to the story, because it's

743
00:55:20.639 --> 00:55:24.280
not It doesn't want you to just
view Joel as a hero. It wants

744
00:55:24.320 --> 00:55:28.519
you to view Joel as a hero
and then have that ripped from you,

745
00:55:28.679 --> 00:55:34.880
because that's what happens to Ellie.
And it wants you to grapple with what

746
00:55:34.960 --> 00:55:38.880
you're willing to allow these characters to
do and still love them. How you

747
00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:45.239
balance your love for them with the
ugly parts of their humanity. And that's

748
00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:49.519
real life. And I think people
are resistant to that because they go into

749
00:55:49.559 --> 00:55:52.760
a fictional story and they want to
see something that's not real life, something

750
00:55:52.800 --> 00:56:00.920
that's easily that's an easy binary.
Characters are easily grouped into these boxes where

751
00:56:00.920 --> 00:56:04.960
they do what we expect them to
do, and they don't disappoint us.

752
00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:07.079
Someone who aren't supposed to disappoint us
don't disappoint us the ones that are due,

753
00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:10.760
and at least we know what to
expect. But that's not what The

754
00:56:10.840 --> 00:56:16.000
Last of Us is. It is
a reflection of humanity told in a different

755
00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:21.920
world, a post apocalyptic world.
And I love that so much about it,

756
00:56:22.159 --> 00:56:24.559
And I think it's just people don't
want to be uncomfortable when they discuss

757
00:56:24.639 --> 00:56:29.880
this. But the best way to
engage with his story is to make yourself

758
00:56:29.960 --> 00:56:34.960
uncomfortable. Here's someone talking about it
from a perspective that you didn't originally agree

759
00:56:35.039 --> 00:56:38.000
with. And when you feel that
discomfort, push past it and hear what

760
00:56:38.039 --> 00:56:43.039
that person is saying, because it
makes it so much more of a fruitful

761
00:56:43.079 --> 00:56:45.840
discourse than just saying Joel was absolutely
right. I'm not going to listen to

762
00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:51.639
anyone who says anything bad about him, you know. I mean, I

763
00:56:51.679 --> 00:56:53.760
think it is not to go into
another show that you and I have discussed

764
00:56:53.800 --> 00:56:58.599
at length, but I think there's
a real connection there to Andre and the

765
00:56:58.599 --> 00:57:00.280
problems people who often have with the
Endoor, because and Or is another show

766
00:57:00.320 --> 00:57:06.360
that says, okay, yeah,
Star Wars started pretty clearly with rebels good,

767
00:57:06.599 --> 00:57:09.559
empire bad. But what if,
like a decent person with a terrible

768
00:57:09.559 --> 00:57:14.480
family situation gets wrapped up in the
empire and makes terrible choices? And what

769
00:57:14.559 --> 00:57:22.360
if people make horrible choices like to
me, um to me, like Luthan

770
00:57:22.519 --> 00:57:24.760
and Marlene would get along real well, you know, Luther would actually be

771
00:57:24.760 --> 00:57:30.239
like Marlene, of course you kill
the kid's hesitating, and like you know,

772
00:57:30.400 --> 00:57:34.360
and I think the problem that we've
often had that you and I have

773
00:57:34.400 --> 00:57:37.239
both had with the Andor wasn't the
time where it took what we thought was

774
00:57:37.280 --> 00:57:40.519
a much more morally complex character and
made them a lot more like No,

775
00:57:40.679 --> 00:57:45.000
this character is just good, even
though some of the choices they made.

776
00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:47.519
And I think, to me,
it's not coincidential that we're getting both of

777
00:57:47.559 --> 00:57:52.880
these stories about the same time,
and Mandalorian as well, which is you

778
00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:53.559
know, not I think, not
to the extent that and Or is,

779
00:57:53.599 --> 00:57:55.800
but in a similar way. It's
come of playing with some of these questions.

780
00:57:57.800 --> 00:58:00.360
And it's just, yeah, I
think you're right. I think to

781
00:58:00.519 --> 00:58:08.119
me, I think binary good and
bad thinking is helpful escapism sometimes but goes

782
00:58:08.159 --> 00:58:13.360
in some really bad ways some directions, and I think we need our stories

783
00:58:13.400 --> 00:58:15.119
that say, okay, we grew
up on that, but let's ask some

784
00:58:15.199 --> 00:58:19.880
questions. Let's actually ask, you
know, where are we right to decide

785
00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:22.519
entirely with one person? And that's
why I said, I think this is

786
00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:29.000
Joel's village villain origin story in such
a perfect way. Yeah, it's it

787
00:58:29.039 --> 00:58:31.679
isn't in that he can't go back
from it. He has made a choice

788
00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:42.159
that might very well have very serious
ramifications and consequences, and you know,

789
00:58:42.199 --> 00:58:45.320
I don't think even with that,
I don't think he'd regret it. And

790
00:58:45.599 --> 00:58:49.679
that's okay, Like And that's the
thing is that you can say I agree

791
00:58:49.719 --> 00:58:52.440
with Joel, and that's fine.
You don't have to give a reason why.

792
00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:58.039
You don't have to defend him Vinda
over backwards to defend him. You

793
00:58:58.039 --> 00:59:00.840
can just say I would do the
same thing if I was in his shoes.

794
00:59:00.920 --> 00:59:04.800
And that's a very complicated thing,
and both are very well, both

795
00:59:04.880 --> 00:59:08.960
very easy and very complex. And
one of my least favorite things that people

796
00:59:09.039 --> 00:59:15.480
do is bring up whether or not
the vaccine is actually possible, because that's

797
00:59:15.519 --> 00:59:21.360
not the point of this story.
The point is that Joel, regardless of

798
00:59:21.400 --> 00:59:24.519
whether it's possible or not, he
doesn't care. All he cares about is

799
00:59:24.559 --> 00:59:30.920
Alie. And you could talk about
that in a different context for the show

800
00:59:31.000 --> 00:59:35.320
or for the story, but not
when it comes to Joel's decision that doesn't

801
00:59:35.360 --> 00:59:39.840
get him a check mark versus the
fireflies because he doesn't care. I think

802
00:59:39.840 --> 00:59:44.159
it's essential for Joel's decision, and
it's also essential from her Lean's decision,

803
00:59:44.320 --> 00:59:49.719
because she, whether this is true
or not, she one percent believes that

804
00:59:49.800 --> 00:59:52.119
it will work. Yeah, because
I think if she thought this is a

805
00:59:52.239 --> 00:59:54.239
chance, then I feel very differently
about her decision. Yeah, But if

806
00:59:54.239 --> 01:00:01.880
this to her is a binary rescue
humanity versus the one girl's life. I

807
01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:05.679
mean, all the ethical like you
know, good quotes say that you save

808
01:00:05.719 --> 01:00:07.599
the one person's life. And I
think that's the point, is to say

809
01:00:07.639 --> 01:00:12.880
that that is true in the abstract. Is it true here? I'm not.

810
01:00:13.039 --> 01:00:15.239
And again I'm not saying I'm not
saying I agree with Marlene, but

811
01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:21.960
I'm saying I think that both her
and Joel are in very understandable positions.

812
01:00:22.679 --> 01:00:25.599
And to me, this is really
a lesson about storytelling because the fact is

813
01:00:25.599 --> 01:00:30.519
that we have become we have never
had Marlene as a point of view character

814
01:00:30.639 --> 01:00:35.360
the one scene where Aldie is born, and so we are naturally drawn to

815
01:00:35.360 --> 01:00:39.280
sympathize much more with him. Yeah, I think you could make a totally

816
01:00:39.280 --> 01:00:42.320
different story. And I don't want
someone to do it right now because it

817
01:00:42.400 --> 01:00:45.559
be obvious, But I think you
can make a totally different story about it's

818
01:00:45.639 --> 01:00:50.000
post apocalyptic world. You're a bounty
hunter as the main character in the video

819
01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:53.719
game or the chev show, and
you're asked to go out and find this

820
01:00:53.760 --> 01:01:00.480
person who stole the thing that's needed
to save humanity. Yeah, and you've

821
01:01:00.519 --> 01:01:02.559
dealt with Marline this whole time.
At the very end you realize it's actually

822
01:01:02.599 --> 01:01:07.360
a living person. What do you
do. It's the same story, just

823
01:01:07.400 --> 01:01:10.559
from a different perspective. Yeah,
it absolutely is. And yeah, I'm

824
01:01:12.400 --> 01:01:15.519
yeah, that's just what I love
so much about this story. And I'm

825
01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:19.960
really looking forward to season two and
beyond because they've already said that Part two

826
01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:24.280
will cover more than one season,
and I'm intrigued to know how they're going

827
01:01:24.360 --> 01:01:29.000
to approach this part of it and
what they'll do, what they'll change,

828
01:01:29.079 --> 01:01:32.079
what they'll keep the same. Again, I have so much trust in them

829
01:01:32.119 --> 01:01:38.679
because they handled this, They handled
Part one exquisitely, and yeah, I

830
01:01:38.719 --> 01:01:44.320
have no doubt that season two will
be equally as good, if not better.

831
01:01:44.440 --> 01:01:47.119
And I and one thing I'm not
looking forward to is the discourse because

832
01:01:47.119 --> 01:01:53.119
if you thought this discourse was tiring, season two and beyond is going to

833
01:01:53.159 --> 01:01:58.800
be even worse. Very much agreed, agreed, And like I said,

834
01:01:58.880 --> 01:02:00.159
I'm gonna just play the game.
There's no way I'm gonna go the whole

835
01:02:00.159 --> 01:02:05.000
time boiled. So even the thing
that Aaron mentioned about five years in the

836
01:02:05.079 --> 01:02:07.880
future, I didn't know that we're
gonna play the game. We're gonna play

837
01:02:07.920 --> 01:02:12.400
the game. There's just two last
things I want to bring up, and

838
01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:15.039
then we'll go to any last things
you want to bring up, and the

839
01:02:15.079 --> 01:02:17.880
bonus content, one of which is
this is just a small part, but

840
01:02:19.039 --> 01:02:21.880
I thought it was so well foreshadowed
again that I want to go back to

841
01:02:21.920 --> 01:02:24.880
it. The comment about you know, Joel saying, you know, you're

842
01:02:24.880 --> 01:02:30.079
a little bit girly, which is
clearly not true. And there were two

843
01:02:30.159 --> 01:02:34.000
moments that foreshadow of that I thought
so well, one of which Joel was

844
01:02:34.039 --> 01:02:38.239
literally there for. The one he's
there for is the one where she finds

845
01:02:38.280 --> 01:02:42.199
the diary of the girl who used
to live in the house to staying in

846
01:02:42.840 --> 01:02:46.119
and she's talking about like all these
you know, girly things that the girl

847
01:02:46.239 --> 01:02:50.360
was writing her, you know,
about boys, what shirt would match with

848
01:02:50.400 --> 01:02:53.599
what skirt, and what movies are
out and like, to be clear,

849
01:02:53.800 --> 01:02:57.960
I don't think the show is saying
those are girly in a bad way,

850
01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:02.000
and I'm I'm certainly not, but
Ellie absolutely does. She this is bizarre.

851
01:03:02.119 --> 01:03:06.559
Why would someone be interested in this? Yeah, and then also the

852
01:03:06.599 --> 01:03:10.039
scene when Riley and Ellie are in
the mall and they're both so baffled that

853
01:03:10.119 --> 01:03:15.239
someone would want to wear that victorious
ferette, and I think the easy thing

854
01:03:15.239 --> 01:03:16.480
would be to be like, yeah, of course they're kids, no one,

855
01:03:16.719 --> 01:03:21.679
but no, like young teenagers,
some go in that direction and do

856
01:03:21.760 --> 01:03:25.360
really want to wear that kind of
stuff. And to me, those two

857
01:03:25.400 --> 01:03:31.320
moments are both so clearly saying this
is not who Ellie. Ellie is tom

858
01:03:31.360 --> 01:03:35.960
boy is such an overused term,
but it's like she's not the person who

859
01:03:36.719 --> 01:03:38.440
Joel is making her out to be
in order to form a connection in his

860
01:03:38.480 --> 01:03:43.360
mind between her and Sarah. Yeah, which I think is interesting because I

861
01:03:43.400 --> 01:03:50.920
think that because I'm of two minds
about this, I don't think Joel views

862
01:03:50.920 --> 01:03:55.960
Ellie as Sarah. I think that
he may be a part of him needs

863
01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:01.119
to after the hospital to justify what
he's done, and maybe that's what we're

864
01:04:01.159 --> 01:04:06.639
seeing. But I do think he
would not have allowed himself to connect to

865
01:04:06.639 --> 01:04:12.280
Ellie if she was like Sarah.
I think he allows himself to connect with

866
01:04:12.320 --> 01:04:15.840
her because she's a lot like him. Yeah, they are two sides of

867
01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:19.679
the same coin, and that's where
a lot of the conflict comes up at

868
01:04:19.480 --> 01:04:24.920
what we see at the end.
And you know, just like Joel is

869
01:04:24.960 --> 01:04:28.679
willing to die for his purpose,
Ellie just like he's willing to kill her

870
01:04:28.719 --> 01:04:30.880
his purpose, so is Ellie.
It's just that her purpose is different.

871
01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:36.239
And I think he doesn't want to
see that at the end. I think

872
01:04:36.280 --> 01:04:40.360
he sees it before the hospital.
I think he doesn't want to see it

873
01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:45.760
after because that would force him to
grapple with how he would react if someone

874
01:04:45.840 --> 01:04:51.000
did that to him, right,
and it wouldn't be good. And here's

875
01:04:51.000 --> 01:04:56.119
where I think that tweet you made
is so perfect, because with Sarah,

876
01:04:56.159 --> 01:05:00.320
we very clearly saw him do things
where Sarah wanted to put herself than them

877
01:05:00.360 --> 01:05:03.239
in danger in order to like save
someone or do something else, and he

878
01:05:03.280 --> 01:05:05.960
clearly was able to be like,
no, I am father, I get

879
01:05:05.960 --> 01:05:10.159
to say that you don't do that. And in those cases, like I

880
01:05:10.159 --> 01:05:12.440
think we agree with him for the
most part, although some of like the

881
01:05:13.079 --> 01:05:15.719
running people down in the truck,
you're like, but you get it.

882
01:05:16.639 --> 01:05:20.320
And I think that to me,
it was two things. One is that

883
01:05:20.360 --> 01:05:23.719
it's like he now wants her to
be a little bit less like him and

884
01:05:23.760 --> 01:05:28.159
a little more like Sarah, because
that makes him being the father figure who

885
01:05:28.239 --> 01:05:31.039
chose for her more. Okay.
The other thing of those I think it

886
01:05:31.119 --> 01:05:34.679
shows that he does know her very
well, but he doesn't know her completely.

887
01:05:34.920 --> 01:05:40.239
Yeah, and that it's that because
if you really fully knew her,

888
01:05:40.599 --> 01:05:43.760
he would knew she'd never be okay
with it. Yeah, and he has

889
01:05:43.559 --> 01:05:45.960
It's like, oh good, I'm
just gonna say. He has to make

890
01:05:46.000 --> 01:05:50.480
that separation now because he, like
I said, I don't think that he'll

891
01:05:50.480 --> 01:05:56.320
regret what he did, and in
order to stay true to that, he

892
01:05:56.440 --> 01:06:00.840
has to be like, I don't
care what you say, I don't regret

893
01:06:00.960 --> 01:06:05.559
what I did, and they're you
know, what's what's that going to mean

894
01:06:05.920 --> 01:06:09.960
for later? So there has to
be that separation between them. There has

895
01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:13.719
to be that more of a true
and in a sence some sense that is

896
01:06:13.760 --> 01:06:19.320
a true father daughter relationship, the
you know, resisting against them deciding for

897
01:06:19.400 --> 01:06:24.920
you and them saying, no,
I did this for a reason you can't.

898
01:06:24.960 --> 01:06:28.480
Maybe you can't see it now,
but I truly believe that one day

899
01:06:28.519 --> 01:06:31.719
you will. And I'm not saying
that that's okay, and I'm not saying

900
01:06:31.719 --> 01:06:35.320
that you know, you know,
I'm not making excuses for it, but

901
01:06:35.360 --> 01:06:40.039
I do think that's how Joel is
viewing himself, and I think that he

902
01:06:40.119 --> 01:06:44.119
does. He does love Ellie for
who she is, and there's no question

903
01:06:44.159 --> 01:06:49.840
about that. It's just they aren't
right now after the hospital, aren't at

904
01:06:49.880 --> 01:06:54.400
the same level with each other about
that, I think, and that's what

905
01:06:54.440 --> 01:06:59.000
makes it so difficult. I think
it's so true. Last thing I want

906
01:06:59.000 --> 01:07:03.360
to ask you is watching that episode
with the religious group, the Cannibals,

907
01:07:03.679 --> 01:07:06.599
who, as I said, cannibalism
is one more thing where I'm like,

908
01:07:06.639 --> 01:07:11.199
in dire circumstances, I someone't understand. Yeah, that's the least worst thing

909
01:07:11.199 --> 01:07:15.880
that David did. Agree, But
in a show that went to such lengths

910
01:07:15.880 --> 01:07:19.880
and a game that went to such
lengths to say, everybody is a huge

911
01:07:19.960 --> 01:07:24.880
that if you look at things from
each person's perspective, you can understand why

912
01:07:24.920 --> 01:07:29.599
they don't see themselves as the villain. David felt out of place to me,

913
01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:33.360
particularly at the very end when he's
when they make insinuations that not only

914
01:07:33.480 --> 01:07:36.760
is he like trying to like,
you know, defeat Allie, but that

915
01:07:36.880 --> 01:07:41.719
he may want to, you know, assault her in ways that are really

916
01:07:41.719 --> 01:07:45.159
not okay. Ye to essay her. I understand the need to put that

917
01:07:45.239 --> 01:07:48.800
in because I think it also helps
to justify her reaction to it. Yeah,

918
01:07:48.840 --> 01:07:53.719
and maybe that's why it's there.
It felt to me a little bit

919
01:07:53.760 --> 01:07:57.519
though, like they were making him
a little bit more two dimensional than most

920
01:07:57.519 --> 01:08:01.000
of the other villains we had seen
or unquote villains. And I may have

921
01:08:01.039 --> 01:08:03.280
just talked myself out of it as
you realize that maybe you need it to

922
01:08:03.320 --> 01:08:08.159
justify the terrible things, not terrible, but the way she acts to him.

923
01:08:08.199 --> 01:08:10.440
But yeah, what was kind of
your take on that. I think

924
01:08:10.480 --> 01:08:16.800
that an interesting thing about David that
makes him very terrifying is that he truly

925
01:08:16.840 --> 01:08:21.920
believes everything he's saying. And in
a sense, there there's a lot of

926
01:08:21.920 --> 01:08:28.960
what he says that isn't a lie, like they are truths that he manipulates

927
01:08:29.279 --> 01:08:35.960
to serve his purpose. And like
the thing with Ellie having a what was

928
01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:40.960
it, Oh my god, I
can't remember that she has a ventraul heart

929
01:08:41.119 --> 01:08:45.359
or a what was it? Was
a ventral heart, I can't remember now,

930
01:08:46.199 --> 01:08:51.000
And he tells her, he tells
her that, and that's not actually

931
01:08:51.039 --> 01:08:57.239
far from the truth, Like it
doesn't make it her bad, but you

932
01:08:57.279 --> 01:08:59.800
know, we do see at the
end of the episode that she is capable

933
01:08:59.840 --> 01:09:02.119
of violence and or she has a
violent heart. That's what he says,

934
01:09:03.079 --> 01:09:06.239
that she is capable of violence,
and she sees that and that changes the

935
01:09:06.279 --> 01:09:11.479
way she views herself. And then
she has to grapple with the fact that

936
01:09:11.520 --> 01:09:14.760
what David said has some truth to
it, and that's a horrible thing to

937
01:09:14.840 --> 01:09:19.760
have to grapple with. And when
he says, if you don't find a

938
01:09:19.800 --> 01:09:24.199
way to trust me, you will
be on your own, that's the thesis

939
01:09:24.239 --> 01:09:28.239
of the entire first part of the
last of us. And so that's what

940
01:09:28.359 --> 01:09:34.840
makes it terrifying, is that he
uses truths to manipulate the people around him.

941
01:09:35.520 --> 01:09:41.640
And I think that in some instances
he's actually a foil of Joel.

942
01:09:44.279 --> 01:09:47.039
He views himself as a father,
he views himself as a protector. So

943
01:09:47.199 --> 01:09:56.720
does Joel. And the difference between
them is that Joel isn't a predator,

944
01:09:56.960 --> 01:10:00.920
at least not in the same way
that David is. He doesn't take advantage

945
01:10:00.039 --> 01:10:05.279
of children the way that David does. And you know, he doesn't view

946
01:10:05.359 --> 01:10:10.520
children as his equal the way that
David does, which is a predator thing.

947
01:10:11.199 --> 01:10:17.960
But they do have similar outlooks on
who they are protectors. And Ellie

948
01:10:19.239 --> 01:10:24.920
being so against that with David for
absolutely understandable reasons, like she should,

949
01:10:26.720 --> 01:10:30.439
is I think foreshadowing for how resistant
she'll be to Joel trying to insert himself

950
01:10:30.479 --> 01:10:35.960
into her life in that way,
even if it is in a well intentioned

951
01:10:36.279 --> 01:10:42.239
and not predator like way, And
so I think that is his purpose in

952
01:10:42.319 --> 01:10:47.199
this story. You can understand some
of the things he says, like I

953
01:10:47.239 --> 01:10:50.520
have in my notes that I think
in the show there were parts where I

954
01:10:50.600 --> 01:10:55.079
was like, you know, he's
not wrong with what he says. I

955
01:10:55.119 --> 01:10:59.199
don't agree with him. He's absolutely
disgusting, a horrible person, but some

956
01:10:59.239 --> 01:11:02.199
of these things he's say aren't wrong. And that's what's so dangerous about the

957
01:11:02.239 --> 01:11:06.520
type of person like him is that
he's capable of manipulating. He's capable of

958
01:11:06.560 --> 01:11:12.199
making people see things from his point
of view and then completely warping it and

959
01:11:12.279 --> 01:11:15.680
turning it into something so gross and
disgusting. I think it's really a good

960
01:11:15.720 --> 01:11:16.279
way to put it, and that
really helps, I think to kind of

961
01:11:16.279 --> 01:11:18.560
put all of it and feel like, yeah, kind of why some of

962
01:11:18.600 --> 01:11:21.479
the things that does, like it
is all necessary to the larger picture of

963
01:11:21.479 --> 01:11:25.800
his character. So for you,
it's any of the last things you wanted

964
01:11:25.800 --> 01:11:28.079
to bring up about the show.
I mean, we could probably do a

965
01:11:28.079 --> 01:11:30.479
whole ton of episodes on this show. But any of the last kind of

966
01:11:30.479 --> 01:11:33.159
big questions you wanted to to make
or points you wanted to point out,

967
01:11:34.079 --> 01:11:39.600
I think it maybe just point out
that I just really appreciate how much care

968
01:11:39.680 --> 01:11:45.520
went into the creation of this adaptation, from every single aspect, behind the

969
01:11:45.560 --> 01:11:49.319
scenes, in front of in front
of the screen, they're in front of

970
01:11:49.319 --> 01:11:54.680
the cameras. Everyone clearly cared so
much about this And I feel like the

971
01:11:54.720 --> 01:12:00.960
best example of that is having Ashley
Johnson play Anna Ashley John's and voices Ellie

972
01:12:00.000 --> 01:12:04.920
in the games, and she puts
so much of herself into that character,

973
01:12:05.239 --> 01:12:12.039
and she's talked at length about how
much Ellie means to her and how represented

974
01:12:12.079 --> 01:12:16.359
she feels through Ellie, and so
to have her give birth to show Ellie

975
01:12:16.960 --> 01:12:21.840
was so beautiful And I'm so indicative
of just how much this adaptation cares about

976
01:12:21.880 --> 01:12:27.760
its source material and that it's in
the absolute best hands it could possibly be

977
01:12:27.840 --> 01:12:31.520
in. And if if you didn't
know that Ashley Johnson plays Ellie in the

978
01:12:31.560 --> 01:12:35.439
game, I encourage you to go
back and watch that scene with that knowledge,

979
01:12:35.479 --> 01:12:41.880
and it makes me cry every time. Yeah, and it's and I

980
01:12:41.920 --> 01:12:44.560
love it. I think that's kind
of the pinnacle of it, but there

981
01:12:44.560 --> 01:12:47.159
were so many of the voice actors
from the original who played this, Like

982
01:12:47.399 --> 01:12:51.199
Marlene is the same actress, and
she says some beautiful things about it in

983
01:12:51.239 --> 01:12:57.600
the making of and even there's one
more example, but again, this is

984
01:12:57.600 --> 01:13:01.079
how much care is put into it. The actor who voice acted Tommy,

985
01:13:02.319 --> 01:13:05.720
he plays Perry, the kind of
military person is the second in command in

986
01:13:05.760 --> 01:13:11.239
Kansas City. And to me,
there's an additional level of care there because

987
01:13:11.279 --> 01:13:18.039
they realized they had cast Pedro pascal
As as Joel, and so they're establishing

988
01:13:18.119 --> 01:13:25.880
that that their family is, that
their family's Latina. And so the guy

989
01:13:25.920 --> 01:13:29.279
who played who played him Tommy,
and the voice actor like, he's a

990
01:13:29.279 --> 01:13:31.760
white person as far as he looked, he doesn't seem like he would fit

991
01:13:31.880 --> 01:13:35.800
as Joel's brother. But instead they
still said, what we want to have

992
01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:41.840
a role for you. Let's not
give you somebody else's role. Let's create

993
01:13:41.880 --> 01:13:44.720
a role for you. Because so
much that that happened in Kansas City is

994
01:13:44.760 --> 01:13:48.079
created. And I just thought that
was It's just it's such a small thing.

995
01:13:48.199 --> 01:13:51.760
Tommy's not a huge part, Perry's
not a huge part, but that

996
01:13:51.840 --> 01:13:57.720
level of care for those two parts, and that one actor was just Star

997
01:13:57.760 --> 01:14:00.720
Wars take notes, please me,
And I just love I love how all

998
01:14:00.760 --> 01:14:08.039
the voice actors were so supportive of
the show. You know, the Jeffrey

999
01:14:08.039 --> 01:14:12.760
Pierce who plays Perry and voices Tommy
in the game, he says that he

1000
01:14:12.800 --> 01:14:15.560
has had he had long conversations with
Gabriel Luna, who plays as Tommy in

1001
01:14:15.600 --> 01:14:19.359
the show, and they just you
know, they had great conversations about it,

1002
01:14:19.359 --> 01:14:23.119
and he was fully supportive of this
and was like, absolutely, he

1003
01:14:23.199 --> 01:14:27.600
was the right decision. And the
same with Troy Baker. He has been

1004
01:14:27.680 --> 01:14:30.840
pro. Pascal's like big fan throughout
all of this, and he talks a

1005
01:14:30.840 --> 01:14:35.720
lot on the podcast about choices Petrol
has made for Joel that he was like,

1006
01:14:35.800 --> 01:14:39.119
man, I wish like I wish
I had thought of that. I

1007
01:14:39.159 --> 01:14:42.760
wish that I had seen it that
way. And that's why he is glad

1008
01:14:42.800 --> 01:14:45.560
someone else is playing him because he
gets to see how things that he might

1009
01:14:45.600 --> 01:14:51.199
have missed about the character. And
I think that's such a beautiful just you

1010
01:14:51.239 --> 01:14:57.520
know, willingness to work together as
artists to tell the best story you can.

1011
01:14:57.920 --> 01:15:00.720
And I'm so glad that that's how
they approach this. I'm horrible because

1012
01:15:00.720 --> 01:15:04.159
I forget the name of the voice
actress who plays Ahsoka, but seeing the

1013
01:15:04.199 --> 01:15:12.880
conversations between her and um No Black
the other Rosario Dawson, Rosario Dawson,

1014
01:15:12.960 --> 01:15:15.239
thank you, um Mango both ends. But her I was like, I

1015
01:15:15.279 --> 01:15:20.319
know it's rock No Rox and Dawson
is voyager actress, um but yeah,

1016
01:15:20.359 --> 01:15:26.640
it's just it's it's because to me, it really holds a continuity of Yes,

1017
01:15:26.720 --> 01:15:30.960
the writers create these characters, but
the actors, and that very much

1018
01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:34.119
include the voice actors, really bring
them to life in such important ways.

1019
01:15:34.199 --> 01:15:39.159
And I know even there was some
discussion about how the visual artists who went

1020
01:15:39.199 --> 01:15:42.279
into the game like that they spoke
a lot with the people, the set

1021
01:15:42.319 --> 01:15:45.199
designers and stuff like that, and
the costumers. Yeah, because it's the

1022
01:15:45.199 --> 01:15:46.760
same thing. It's like, you
know, in the same way you're bringing

1023
01:15:47.079 --> 01:15:51.840
a voice actor's world to creation in
live action, you're doing the same thing

1024
01:15:51.840 --> 01:15:56.560
with the sets and costumes. Yeah. All was beautiful. Well, Danielle,

1025
01:15:56.600 --> 01:15:58.319
thank you so much for me and
a part of this. Um.

1026
01:15:58.319 --> 01:16:01.279
I can't imagine anyone more who wanted
to have on for this show. And

1027
01:16:01.359 --> 01:16:04.239
we'll probably talk more about the show
because we didn't even talk about Bill and

1028
01:16:04.279 --> 01:16:10.159
Frank and we will have a little
bit in the bonus content just in a

1029
01:16:10.199 --> 01:16:14.159
few moments that will still be on
this show. But till then, Danielle,

1030
01:16:14.159 --> 01:16:16.800
you've created so much great content in
other places about this, about a

1031
01:16:16.800 --> 01:16:19.640
lot of what aren't two Star Wars
things. Where can people find you?

1032
01:16:19.960 --> 01:16:24.479
I'm on TikTok at, written in
the Star Wars twitter at Danny us three

1033
01:16:24.680 --> 01:16:28.920
ninety four and i have written an
article for almost every episode of the Last

1034
01:16:28.920 --> 01:16:30.880
of Us on ti Ble of Geek, and it's just under my first name,

1035
01:16:31.000 --> 01:16:38.880
Danielle Great and for everybody who is
taking so please check out all the

1036
01:16:38.880 --> 01:16:41.239
great things Danielle is doing, check
out all the great things Aaron is doing.

1037
01:16:41.279 --> 01:16:43.880
And of course we'd love it you'd
pay. We'd love it if you'd

1038
01:16:43.920 --> 01:16:45.039
check out, you know, all
the things that the Ethical Panda is doing.

1039
01:16:45.119 --> 01:16:48.800
This show is an Ethical Panda creation, and that we also do the

1040
01:16:48.800 --> 01:16:55.159
Star Wars Universe podcast with great content
with Danielle and Aaron that'll be out soon

1041
01:16:55.279 --> 01:16:59.600
about um the Bad Batch to be
content coming out about Mandalorian and ording episode

1042
01:16:59.600 --> 01:17:03.279
by episode. Also a quick announcement
that fans of superhero ethics may not know

1043
01:17:03.840 --> 01:17:08.720
this podcast is going to be moving
from the Stranded Panda podcast network to the

1044
01:17:08.720 --> 01:17:13.079
True Story FM network. They're the
folks who do Marvel Movie Minute. To

1045
01:17:13.159 --> 01:17:15.439
be clear, I dearly love some
of my best friends and supporters are all

1046
01:17:15.439 --> 01:17:19.600
in Stranded Panda. They do incredible
work. Ashley Coffin from the Stranded Panda

1047
01:17:19.640 --> 01:17:24.039
It's going to continue to be part
of the Mandalorian. I'm sure I'm gonna

1048
01:17:24.039 --> 01:17:27.560
have Matt Carroll and Jeff randalon for
various things. If this is not about

1049
01:17:27.600 --> 01:17:30.279
them at all, just in new
direction for our shows. In terms of

1050
01:17:30.279 --> 01:17:32.239
you, the listener, it probably
isn't going to matter at all. You'll

1051
01:17:32.279 --> 01:17:34.880
still get the same feeds, You'll
still get the same places to give us

1052
01:17:34.880 --> 01:17:41.000
feedback. The Patreon program may be
shifting to a membership program. I don't

1053
01:17:41.039 --> 01:17:44.439
know the details yet. Everyone who's
paid things, you're still gonna get all

1054
01:17:44.479 --> 01:17:47.079
the same benefits. Nothing's going away. It may be that we're gonna keep

1055
01:17:47.119 --> 01:17:50.680
Patreon. It maybe that we're gonna
just have the membership thing instead. All

1056
01:17:50.720 --> 01:17:53.920
that to be figured out, but
I would say, well, I want

1057
01:17:53.960 --> 01:17:57.279
you to sign up for Patreon for
the next couple of weeks, hold off

1058
01:17:57.279 --> 01:18:01.520
on pause. You can sign up
as we get that figured out. But

1059
01:18:01.560 --> 01:18:05.600
we're going about but certainly, what
do you think? There's so many good

1060
01:18:05.640 --> 01:18:09.079
questions here. We want to know
what your thoughts. Nothing that's probably be

1061
01:18:09.079 --> 01:18:11.880
a feedback episode just about this,
because there's so much great stuff that came

1062
01:18:11.960 --> 01:18:15.119
up. Please let us know.
You can contact us on Facebook, Twitter,

1063
01:18:15.239 --> 01:18:17.800
TikTok, all those great places.
So I'm out of myself, and

1064
01:18:17.880 --> 01:18:21.000
Danielle, thank you as much for
tuning in. We have