WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:13.679 Hello, everyone, Welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today's podcast is 2 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:18.679 inspired by a sad event, but it's chanced to celebrate a great life and 3 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:21.920 someone who had an incredible impact on a game that many of us love, 4 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:24.920 magically Gathering. We're talking, of course, for those who are in the 5 00:00:24.920 --> 00:00:29.079 Magic the Gathering world. No, Sheldon Meani. Sheldon Meani was a huge 6 00:00:29.160 --> 00:00:34.960 part of creating the Commander format and putting out ideas such as rules zero and 7 00:00:35.039 --> 00:00:39.640 other things that really encourage something that went along with a lot of Commander nearly 8 00:00:39.679 --> 00:00:44.320 the idea of playing a game where the idea the focus isn't necessarily on who 9 00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:46.799 wins, but as much as how does everybody at the table have a good 10 00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:50.880 time. We're al still having some friendly competition involved. And that's the kind 11 00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:53.439 of thing that I love talking about on this podcast in terms of just like, 12 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:56.200 let's talk about what that culture is like and how to sustain it and 13 00:00:56.759 --> 00:01:00.560 challenges to it and other versions of things like that, all in honor of 14 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:04.840 Sheldon, who just did so much to really put forward these ideas. I 15 00:01:04.920 --> 00:01:07.280 was just such a great friend to so many of us, and I have 16 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:11.400 two really exciting guests. First, as returning guest Will Freeland. Will, 17 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:14.680 I don't think we've had you on to talk about magic before, but I 18 00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:17.680 know you've talked about comics on here and a lot of other topics. We'll 19 00:01:17.719 --> 00:01:23.560 just quickly introduce yourself. Yeah, so Will Freeland, Silver Dreamer pretty much 20 00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:29.840 everywhere on the Internet. I've been here before talking about primarily Marvel stuff. 21 00:01:30.879 --> 00:01:37.599 Talked a little bit about Star Wars, and my online presence kind of revolves 22 00:01:37.640 --> 00:01:45.680 around Marvel and Lego and building bricks stuff and hobbies. But I also play 23 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:49.920 a lot of magic gathering. I've made who knows how many Commander decks, 24 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:53.840 and I always love as soon as I find that Commander deck that I really 25 00:01:53.879 --> 00:02:00.120 like, going and buying an altar of it and supporting some artists somewhere I 26 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:06.840 go to as a guy in Spain to just it's just so much fun building 27 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:12.599 a Commander deck that is almost nothing like anything else I've seen from other people 28 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:16.199 that make the same commander and I think that's one of the best parts about 29 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:20.840 this format in general. Definitely. Yeah, Will and I we met, 30 00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:23.319 I believe for the first time in person at a Commander event to Command Fast 31 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:27.639 Vegas. I'm almost really happy that for the first time I have on a 32 00:02:27.719 --> 00:02:31.319 guest, Nile Joan Rivers. Many of you who are in the Magic content 33 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:36.439 creator space probably already know Nile, but for everyone else, please introduce yourself. 34 00:02:36.840 --> 00:02:40.240 Yeah, thank you. I am Nil, Nile Joan Rivers on Twitch, 35 00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:45.000 Twitter, TikTok, wherever you can find me. I make Magic the 36 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:50.280 gathering content of all varieties, really, but the main things I try to 37 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:57.039 focus on our making queer centric content. I'm in the middle of series that 38 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:02.039 I call Commander Versus where we do a two edit giant Commander game that'll be 39 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:07.000 like one queer group against another queer group. So we've done like Twins, 40 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:09.479 First Dolls, Bears, First Buys, Days, First Gays, stuff like 41 00:03:09.479 --> 00:03:13.560 that, just like silly little names, but it's an it's a fun way 42 00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:16.439 to bring that part of the community to the forefront. And then I also 43 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:22.879 try to focus on new player friendly content. I try really hard to lower 44 00:03:22.919 --> 00:03:27.240 the barrier to entrgue for Magic as much as I can, because it's a 45 00:03:27.319 --> 00:03:30.879 very intimidating game for new people to pick up, and I try to make 46 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:35.319 that easier for them. Definitely, I love that, and I love especially 47 00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:38.000 what you talked about there because one of things certainly that I've experienced we'll talk 48 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:44.560 about this more down the road in this episode, is that while Magic itself 49 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:50.319 is slowly but is becoming a lot more queer, welcoming, and friendly to 50 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:53.680 all sorts of folks, the Commander spaces that I've been in have been overwhelmingly 51 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:58.759 where I found that the most not exclusively by any means, and there's a 52 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:00.120 lot of work to be done, but it is a great connection. I 53 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:04.319 think we'll definitely be talking about And let me actually just start with because we 54 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:08.400 aren't. This isn't gonna be specially about Sheldon Meny, but about kind of 55 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:10.879 the ideas he put forward and things like that, and I want to focus 56 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:15.319 mostly on the ideas. But first you're starting with Sheldon. Now, I 57 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:17.000 don't know how much you had interacted with him or knew about his content, 58 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:21.600 but kind of what did you know about Sheldon? Yeah, so I never 59 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:28.720 got the opportunity to interact with him directly, but I feel like his influence 60 00:04:28.839 --> 00:04:34.480 is very very easy to identify and feel throughout the entire community, especially the 61 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:41.120 Commander side of the community, and it's been it's been really cool to get 62 00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:45.560 to see all of the all of the posts from all of my friends who 63 00:04:45.560 --> 00:04:49.959 did get to interact with him about what those interactions were like and how genuine 64 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:56.399 and evolved of a guy he was. Yeah, it seems it seems like 65 00:04:56.439 --> 00:05:00.560 his impact was only positive. Yeah. One thing I was really struck by 66 00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:06.399 was how many people posted things like I completely disagreed with Sheldon on everything he 67 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:11.600 thought about how magic should be played. Most of my online interactions with him 68 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:15.959 were arguing back and forth, and I felt like we became good friends through 69 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:20.040 that, which is given the nature of most online discourse and how you know, 70 00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:24.439 the fact that he was able to generally disagree with people in very friendly 71 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:28.160 ways and things like that is just really a great statement to him. Will 72 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:36.959 what about yourself? I guess this speaks more to his legacy than anything else. 73 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:43.560 But so I've never interacted with them, interacted with him. But when 74 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:47.040 I hear the name Sheldon, I think of magic before I think of Big 75 00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:51.639 Bang theory, and I feel like I feel like that's a statement in and 76 00:05:51.639 --> 00:05:58.800 it of itself that is a victory for geeks. But when yeah, when 77 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:02.959 the news came out that he asked my Twitter if ease I mentioned before we 78 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:06.959 started recording that like half the people I follow on Twitter are magic people, 79 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:14.759 and that's like the closest to me creating that being expressing my magic fandom as 80 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:20.639 I currently am. But my feed was just full of anecdotes and stories about 81 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:26.839 one time interactions with Sheldon in person, or seeing him at an event, 82 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:33.199 or a small conversation that they had in passing, or even especially the next 83 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:40.360 day, people rallying about in Sheldon's name, let's go to our local lgs 84 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:46.199 and promote magic and teaching more people how to play magic and how to get 85 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:51.040 into Commander and all this, and just again to the same point that now 86 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:58.879 made like Sheldon's impact is so much bigger than I thought it was, and 87 00:06:59.720 --> 00:07:05.839 it's it seems to be primarily positive, and that's the dream. You can 88 00:07:05.879 --> 00:07:10.800 only hope to be that positive in so many people's lives. I will just 89 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:14.600 say a quick interruption for those of you who mostly listen to this podcast because 90 00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:18.160 you want to know about the fcs of robots and vigilanteism and superheroes, I 91 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:21.120 promise we will explain some of these terms that we're talking about. You don't 92 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:26.399 have to know commander or magic the gathering. We will explain all that means 93 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:30.399 in just a few moments, I promise, and now they'll let me. 94 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:31.759 As kind of a way of starting that, maybe talk to us a little 95 00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:34.120 about your journey, because I know you did not start in magic as a 96 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:39.959 commander player. Yeah, not even a little bit. So I first started 97 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:43.759 playing magic in two thousand and seven. Around then, when the Lore one 98 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:49.480 sat was out, I was given a preconstructed deck of mur Folk, which 99 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:55.920 for the non magic listeners are mr people, you know, Mermaid's Mermaid, 100 00:07:55.920 --> 00:08:00.680 that kind of thing. And I just immediately fell in love. I mean, 101 00:08:00.680 --> 00:08:03.160 I grew up. It's like a Pokemon kid, a Uvo kid. 102 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:05.519 It was like the natural pipeline I was. I was built for it. 103 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:13.639 I was the Targets demo for sure. But fell in love immediately and played 104 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:18.959 off and on just kind of like with friends casually throughout middle school, high 105 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:28.439 school after all that. Didn't seriously get into it until the last year and 106 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:33.720 a half or so where I started to get really into the competitive scene in 107 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:37.720 magic, which actually started with a group called the VML. Which the VML 108 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:46.080 is a magic league that takes place online that is specifically for people of marginalized 109 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:52.639 gender, so women, non binary people, Transmit stuff like that, and 110 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:56.120 I participated in their leagues and I did pretty well in them, and that 111 00:08:56.240 --> 00:09:01.639 just like got me more and more into the competitive scene. And since then, 112 00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:07.519 I've been doing a lot of rcqs, which are regional Championship qualifiers and 113 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:13.639 other tournaments like that. And while doing all that, I'm also like making 114 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:18.480 magic content on Twitch and all that stuff, and eventually that leads me into 115 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:28.519 the Commander area. And my experience so far with Commander players has been very 116 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:31.200 positive. I've made a lot of really good friends in that space. I've 117 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:37.000 made I think some of my best content in the Commander's space and really just 118 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:39.759 like kind of found a home for myself there. Yeah, that's wonderful, 119 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:48.080 but it's a very It's definitely an interesting perspective coming into the Commander's scene from 120 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:52.360 the competitive scene because it's the same game, it's the same cards for the 121 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:58.120 most part, but totally different worlds, very very very different worlds. Yeah, 122 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:01.679 and that's a lot we're going to talk about today, And I'm so 123 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:05.879 glad you are here because I think that one of the things that happens with 124 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:09.240 Commander and I promise I'm about to give the explanation for it after this comment, 125 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:11.960 and he replies, but I think one of the things that happens in 126 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:18.120 Commander is that because a lot of the Commander world is not where the focus 127 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:22.440 is not primarily on competition, you know, there can be some defensiveness and 128 00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:24.960 some you know, a kind of like Jets and Sharks thing happen where it's 129 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:28.919 sort of like, oh, where the good players and they're the competitive ones, 130 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:31.120 and the competitive ones say the same thing. And I really love that 131 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:33.759 you're coming from. You know that you love both, because I think that 132 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:37.399 is a needed perspective, because even myself, I could sometimes be a little 133 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:41.480 bit uh, you know, I try to gently tease my more competitive friends, 134 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:46.159 but it can probably not seem as gentle sometimes. And let me explain 135 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:48.559 that. But let me tell my own story about how I came into it 136 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:50.799 that I'll hope will give a good explanation for it. I played Magic Nile, 137 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:54.039 I think, possibly before you were born, certainly before a lot of 138 00:10:54.039 --> 00:10:58.960 my audience was born. I played in the very early days of Magic Alpha 139 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:03.759 Beta in the late night in the early nineties in high school, kept playing 140 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:09.679 through college. Most people stopped playing around that time. The mid late nineties, 141 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:11.759 people weren't really into it, stole off my cards. Someone gave me 142 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:16.279 three hundred dollars for a piece of cardboard just because it said mocks Emerald on 143 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:18.919 it. I thought that was like clost money in the world. I will 144 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:22.679 never look at the price of it again. But I got into it. 145 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:26.279 It was a lot of fun and I was I was decent at it. 146 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:28.679 I was not great. I went to one or two tournaments, didn't really 147 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:31.600 love that. And it's, like I said, kind of fell out of 148 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:37.039 it in mid college. Then when I got back in some years later, 149 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:43.360 I got divorced. I started looking for new community, and I started playing 150 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:48.879 magic again and wound up getting into judging as well. And I really liked 151 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:50.639 judging and I really like and I found that I kind of liked judging more 152 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:54.720 because honestly, I just didn't have that. I didn't have it in before 153 00:11:54.840 --> 00:12:01.320 the competition. I loved playing I loved limited it especially, but like spending 154 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:03.279 a whole bunch of money on a deck wasn't my thing. Doing all the 155 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:07.679 research, like I want to really honor again. The amount of work competitive 156 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:11.360 players put in is amazing, and like I don't want to play the Olympics. 157 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:13.080 I just wanted to play in my backyard, and so I was happy 158 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:18.799 mostly being a judge and playing some events for free. And then at a 159 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:22.759 gathering of queer folks in Medicine, I mentioned that I used to play Magic, 160 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:24.519 and some people said, well, do you want to play Commander with 161 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:28.240 us? And I said, what's that? And the way they basically explained 162 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:31.759 it to me was, it's a different kind of format, it's multiplayer, 163 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:35.960 it's different kind of deck building rules and the idea of it as they saw 164 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:39.080 it, And I think this is a big part of how Sheldon saw it, 165 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:43.840 was that it was meant for people who wanted to enjoy this game more 166 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:48.559 as a social activity than as specifically about winning, you know, and that 167 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:50.080 it could be because they just wanted a way to hang out with their friends. 168 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:52.600 It could be kind of his will was saying, although it don't let 169 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:56.559 me put words in your mouth. You know a place too. There was 170 00:12:56.600 --> 00:13:01.639 a mechanic in a set three years ago that looked really cool, but it 171 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:05.159 just wasn't good enough to function in standard or limited, and Commanders a way 172 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:09.200 to build you a ridiculous deck that just does something really fun because you don't 173 00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:13.399 need to build the most efficient deck possible and so yeah, so it was 174 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:20.960 this kind of world of let's play the game and figure out how to have 175 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:24.519 fun with it. Now. Of course, the problem can be if one 176 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:28.799 person's idea of fun is let's spend ten dollars on a deck and just let 177 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:33.200 everyone go to town, and another person's idea is let's all spend a thousand 178 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:35.519 dollars on a deck and hopefully someone has won by turn three and then we 179 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.120 start over again. That's really going to get complicated and people are not going 180 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:43.759 to often work. And what I think show then me and he did. 181 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:46.200 I don't know if he invented this idea or if he just kind of really 182 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:50.039 helped to push it forward, because there's certainly a big advocate for it. 183 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:52.759 Was the idea of the rule zero conversation. And this is the idea that 184 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:56.000 like, before you sit down and play a game of magic with new people, 185 00:13:56.759 --> 00:14:01.960 you have a rule zero conversation, which is the less decide. It's 186 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:05.759 not officially in the rules, but like at this table, we're going to 187 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:11.000 ban this kind of card, or we're gonna say we're changing this particular rule 188 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:13.960 to make it a little easier for people to function or we're gonna do other 189 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:18.960 things that I, as a judge and person who gets paid to host official 190 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:22.480 magic events, cannot mention on air, but you might be able to figure 191 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:26.159 it out. Although that's not inherent to Commander, but that's something else entirely. 192 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:30.519 But yeah, and so that was kind of always my understanding of it 193 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:35.320 and of what Sheldon really gave it to. It is this idea of magic 194 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:37.039 can be very competitive, and that can be awesome. And it might be 195 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:41.519 that the social environment you really enjoy is hyper competitive and that's awesome too, 196 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:46.399 but that the focus is on how do we make a fun experience for everyone 197 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:56.279 involved? Totally. Yeah, I ran into, I guess, like a 198 00:14:56.360 --> 00:15:01.039 couple of issues that I had to solve when I first started getting into the 199 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:11.399 Commander world from the competitive world. The first being having to adjust to the 200 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:18.519 different expectations of the table because, like you sit down to play a one 201 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:22.200 v one best of three at an RCQ against your opponent, you are both 202 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:26.679 trying to crush each other, you know, like that is the game. 203 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:30.159 If you don't hit a land drop on turn three, I am going to 204 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:31.279 choke you out the rest of the game. I don't care if you get 205 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:33.960 to play another card, you know, like, I, that's the game, 206 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:37.320 and that's what we're both expecting. That's like our equal expectation. They're 207 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:41.399 not going to get to the end and be like how dare you? Like 208 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:43.519 you didn't even let me like play any of my cards, you know, 209 00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:45.799 like it's going to be like, yeah, I just didn't hit any lands 210 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:50.039 and you capitalized on my disadvantage. Now, the other thing was I came 211 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:54.840 into Commander. My one Commander duck was made of my mirth Wolk cards from 212 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:58.320 when I first started playing. So I had a blue white deck, so 213 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:03.879 I had counter spells, I had board wipes, I have cards that exile 214 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:06.440 your stuff. I had cards to bounce your stuff, and then I could 215 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:14.200 also make a giant board of fish. I had to learn other people's expectations 216 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:18.759 of you know, when is it appropriate to wipe a board, When is 217 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:22.120 it appropriate to counter something? When is it inappropriate to do these things? 218 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:27.200 Because again from the comp world, that doesn't matter. The appropriate time to 219 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:32.320 do those things is when it wins you the game and that's it. But 220 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:37.919 in like a more casual format like Commander tends to be, it was hard 221 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:41.159 for me to figure out, like wait, what do you mean? Like 222 00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:45.039 it upsets you that I countered your commander, Like isn't that that? Isn't 223 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:48.600 that good? Like doesn't that like ruin your plans? Isn't that great? 224 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:52.279 Like it isn't that all we're here to do? But I what finally made 225 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:57.519 it click for me is I started thinking about it through the lens of content 226 00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:03.840 creation. Actually, because when I play Commander on stream, when I have 227 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:07.119 people on before the stream, I always tell them like, hey, our 228 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:11.400 first objective is be entertaining. Our second objective is play magic. You know, 229 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:15.599 like I don't care if any of you are like good or bad or 230 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:18.519 whatever. I don't care what your decks are, like make it fun, 231 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:25.240 don't make it like not fun to watch. So doing that made it easy, 232 00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:27.119 like it clicks for me where I could be like, okay, is 233 00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:30.799 it more fun for me? Like is it more fun for the table if 234 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:34.200 I counter your spell? Or is it more fun for the table if I 235 00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:37.319 let your spell go through even though I can counter it, even if it's 236 00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:42.839 worse for me? And you know, this is like this is very casual 237 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:48.319 expectations. This is a very like we're playing a board game together, not 238 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:53.400 we're trying to win together. Sometimes. I think commander games, the expectation 239 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:57.319 is more competitive, and I think that can be really fun. But you 240 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:03.920 know, setting and meeting that expectation, I think it's critical because if if 241 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.559 any one person is not on the same wavelength as the rest of the table, 242 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:11.400 it becomes a very awkward time, very fast. Yeah. But as 243 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:15.160 long as you all agree, like this is the kind of vibe we're going 244 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:26.279 for, you know, do whatever you gotta do. Absolutely, I'm shutting 245 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:30.240 up. We'll let you comp in. Oh okay, So no, I 246 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:37.880 to play off of the like the casual let things happen mindset, Like I 247 00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:45.720 feel so because I I've dipped my right pinky toe into competitive DH versus where 248 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:52.680 my decks typically sit are like high level, I guess is what's called where 249 00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:59.000 it's it's strong and powerful, but it's not competitive because I don't run all 250 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:03.039 of the five hundred dollars cards that are better versions of what I run. 251 00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:12.119 But so in the casual DH community, you can build a deck just for 252 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:21.400 fun and really just play around with a mechanic or or or a creature type 253 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:27.880 that you don't typically see in the competitive space and just go with it. 254 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:36.519 And just like flood the entire battlefield with random tokens just because you had this 255 00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:42.039 ten mona spell that you normally wouldn't be able to cast ever, but you 256 00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:47.160 survived until turn eleven, and you're like, you know what, it's time, 257 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:51.480 I'm going to create one hundred and fourteen flying one one peg aside. 258 00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:56.000 Why not? And it's it's so much fun because like I have a deck 259 00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:03.200 that just keeps on cycling my cards, Like I go, it's one hundred 260 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:07.400 card deck, but I draw like one hundred and fifty times on average because 261 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:11.640 I just keep on put looping my cards to the bottom of my deck and 262 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.279 just draw and draw and draw it from Argin the something something I forget it's 263 00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:19.599 title, but his name's Argin and he's awesome and he's Sphinx. But like, 264 00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:26.359 drawing cards doesn't win me the game, you know, like just conceptually, 265 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:32.559 but like when you play something that's a little more chaotic and you have 266 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:36.200 no idea if you're going to win, that's just so much more fun to 267 00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:47.000 me than playing the lockout spells and the instant Just get rid of my deck 268 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:51.799 and then drop down a fastist oracles for the for the immediate win type stuff, 269 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:57.240 and it's just that's where you like really let your creative juices flow when 270 00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:00.920 you're playing casual and you're just like, well, let's just see how this 271 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:06.039 goes. Yeah, I'm very much of that mindset. Some of my if 272 00:21:06.039 --> 00:21:08.359 I would describe some of the best games of magic I've ever played, some 273 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:11.519 of them are games I've won, but some of them were games I've lost, 274 00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:15.920 where but I got to do this really amazing thing that knocked out two 275 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:18.200 of the players but didn't quite get there, and so the third was able 276 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:21.920 to destroy me in like half a turn because I was, you know, 277 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:26.720 had completely spent all my resources. And I think it ties back to what 278 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:30.400 Nil was saying, because I love what you said there. But it has 279 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:36.200 to be about the shared expectations, because there's no reason for me to go 280 00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:38.119 down and sit down with a couple of competitive players and be like, no, 281 00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:41.559 no, my version of magic is better that it isn't. It's just 282 00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:45.880 what Will and I love and what Milesins like you sometimes love, and to 283 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:49.720 me, that should really be the goal there of not trying to decide which 284 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:53.119 one's better, but just how do we create that space for the people who 285 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:56.279 want one kind of magic to find each other and and o there's others because 286 00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:00.480 I did go a little bit of the same thing and that I wanted a 287 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:03.799 casual thing where everyone just got to do their thing. But to me, 288 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:07.960 the fun way to play is I will counter all of your things, fully 289 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:12.680 expecting that eventually you'll get something through and you probably will win. It turns 290 00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:15.920 out that not everyone finds that it's fun as I do. But like I 291 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:19.319 have a good friend who's a STACKX player. Stax Is is that kind of 292 00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:22.640 lockout kind of game, and she and I have had some great games with 293 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:27.079 other maniacs. We can convince that this is fun where she's trying to lock 294 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:30.880 everyone out and I'm trying to figure out how to counter or everything she's doing, 295 00:22:32.200 --> 00:22:33.160 and the other two players are just like, what in the world is 296 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:37.079 going on? But because we can, you know, it's there are people 297 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:40.920 who find things fun that I don't think find fun, and that's it can 298 00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:44.720 go both ways, and that's perfectly fine. Well, and I'm a big 299 00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:52.200 believer, and you can power up or down just like your piloting of a 300 00:22:52.279 --> 00:22:56.359 duck. Yeah, yeah, a table's expectations because like I think a lot 301 00:22:56.440 --> 00:23:00.480 of times people have this misconception that they're like I have this that I can 302 00:23:00.519 --> 00:23:03.680 only play in like really casual pods, and this deck that I can only 303 00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:08.039 play in really competitive pods. But for me, I'll play any deck in 304 00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:11.480 any pod. And if we you know, like I've got like my Calia 305 00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:15.079 deck, which is pretty mean. If she comes out, you know, 306 00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:18.880 like on turn four she's swinging, I'm bringing out like Avison's and all sorts 307 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:22.759 of like big scary creatures. You know, it's got a lot of like 308 00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:26.559 brutal stuff in the deck. But if we sit down and we're like we're 309 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:30.319 gonna do this casual, I'm just gonna play different, Like I'm gonna play 310 00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:33.400 more casually, you know, like if I have Platinum Angel, maybe I'm 311 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:37.519 just not gonna put her on the board. For those non Magic listeners, 312 00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:44.279 Platinum Angel is a creature with highly oppressive text that says your opponents cannot win 313 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:47.440 the game and you cannot lose the game. So until they can deal with 314 00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:52.599 Platinum Angel, no one's winning except for you. So you know, like 315 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:53.920 if we're not in a competitive you know, I'm not going to put down 316 00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:57.200 Platinum Angel and give it hex proof. You know, like I'm not I'm 317 00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:00.720 just not going to do that. Whereas also on the flip side, I've 318 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:04.039 been in pods before where people are like, here's the deck I'm playing, 319 00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:07.799 and I'll be like, I'm just gonna play this precon and they're like, 320 00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:10.559 oh, if you're playing a precon, I should power down my deck and 321 00:24:10.599 --> 00:24:12.519 I'm like, no, you play what you want. I'll play my precon. 322 00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:15.319 It'll be fine. And then you know, like I win the game 323 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:21.200 or whatever, and it's like it's just like you can play at a competitive 324 00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:23.319 level with your lower power decks, and you can play at a lower power 325 00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:27.240 level with your more competitive decks. You know what I mean, absolutely well, 326 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:33.079 and especially I love that, especially because for one thing, like I 327 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:34.599 love the example you used a while ago about if you sit down next your 328 00:24:34.599 --> 00:24:40.079 opponent and they stumble on lands, which is basically like assembling your resources at 329 00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:41.720 the start of the game so that you can do more things, You're just 330 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:45.720 gonna cut them off and take over the game. In Commander, a lot 331 00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:48.759 of times, if one person of the four is really kind of struggling, 332 00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:52.640 like no one in general, like no one's gonna just like knock them out 333 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:55.880 of the game early because that just considered like, no, give them a 334 00:24:55.960 --> 00:24:59.880 chance. I did play in a group where someone was they started building their 335 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:03.480 decks to always go slow because they figured they could take advantage, and so 336 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:07.200 some of us had come on, man, you gotta like not try that. 337 00:25:07.240 --> 00:25:08.960 But the other side of it, I think this kind of goes into 338 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:14.400 what you're saying is that like building the deck is an important skill, playing 339 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:18.279 the deck is an important skill, but any multiplayer game also adds a whole 340 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:23.359 other skill, which is politics and bluffing, and which I primarily as a 341 00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:30.319 poker player. It's why I really love DH because I'm really good at convincing 342 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:33.720 people that know this person over there you need to be afraid of them, 343 00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:37.160 don't look at the really good cards I just dropped. I'm only doing it 344 00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:41.720 to help you against them. And politics is like, but some EEDH groups 345 00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:45.640 will be like no politics. And that's also totally fine, because some people 346 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:48.000 think I'm a memiac for enjoying that kind of stuff, and that's again totally 347 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:52.759 fine, but it's it is nice that it like, there are definitely games 348 00:25:52.759 --> 00:25:56.480 where I have felt like I have the worst deck and I'm not as good 349 00:25:56.519 --> 00:26:00.559 at you as playing the game. But if I identify early who's the biggest 350 00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:02.960 threat, I can make sure they get knocked out before I do. And 351 00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:04.559 that's just, you know, it just it just adds another skill set that 352 00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:11.759 can be really fun. Yeah, I love politicking and commander. I think 353 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.079 it's I think it's one of the most fun aspects of the game and probably 354 00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:21.480 one of the biggest reasons to play it. I had a game recently where 355 00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:25.839 there was one player that was just dominating and it was very much like he's 356 00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:29.319 probably gonna win. And then there was another player who she was kind of 357 00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:32.880 struggling, but she had sort of amassed a little bit of a board and 358 00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:33.799 it was about to be her turn, and I was like, all right, 359 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:37.839 listen, if you don't attack me this turn, I'm gonna cast scheming 360 00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:42.240 Symmetry next turn, which is a card that says me and target opponent both 361 00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:45.759 find a card, put it on top of our deck. But I can 362 00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:48.920 choose anyone at the table who also gets that benefit. And I was like, 363 00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:52.039 if you don't attack me, I will target you with scheming Symmetry. 364 00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:56.279 You can get any cards you want, you can stabilize whatever. But then 365 00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:59.279 I was like, if you do attack me. I'm gonna target this guy 366 00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:03.400 who's probably definitely gonna win, and we're just all gonna lose. Like I 367 00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:08.279 will blow this table up if you don't take this deal. Yeah, she's 368 00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:11.200 like the deal. So it was great, and it's also it's one of 369 00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:15.240 the reasons why I think one of the best ways to play Commander. And 370 00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:17.759 again, for those warrant into Magic, I promise we're going to branch this 371 00:27:17.799 --> 00:27:21.680 into a larger conversation about community in just a few moments. But I think 372 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:25.839 all of this can tie into community building pretty clearly. But I would just 373 00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:30.480 say one other kind of addition to that is the it's fun to just sit 374 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.640 down with like some random people and play Commander. But I'm honest, I'll 375 00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:37.480 be honest, I very rarely do that. Mostly I like to play with 376 00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:41.400 the same group of people because, ay, we all get to know each 377 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:42.240 other and we all get to kind of know our things, and we can 378 00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:45.680 say, like, you know, in the group chat, hey I have 379 00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:48.640 kind of a more powerful deck. Can people bring more powerful decks this time? 380 00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:51.200 Or hey, do you mind if we have like this thing that we 381 00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:55.359 often don't have, So that can be great. But also if I sit 382 00:27:55.400 --> 00:27:57.960 down with three random people and play Commander and I offer someone a deal and 383 00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:02.720 I stab them in the back. Okay, but if you do that in 384 00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:06.799 a group of friends, that person's going to remember and a it might be 385 00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:08.799 harder for you to do deals next time. But also, like I've seen 386 00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:11.200 times if someone did that a couple of times, and someone just sat down 387 00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:14.839 and said, I want everyone to know the goal of my game is to 388 00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:18.839 defeat them like anything else is fine, because they just have to have me 389 00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:21.720 in the back so many times. And like it, just like any community, 390 00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:25.960 you know, you gotta the fact that, like every interaction that happens 391 00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:29.119 in the game is also just going to play into the larger relationships your building. 392 00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:33.680 I just love. I will sometimes say the like Telltale Games text out 393 00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:37.440 loud when someone targets me, and I'll be like, Nile will remember this 394 00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:44.200 so good? Yeah, yeah, and entertaining, I'm sure. Yeah. 395 00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:49.000 I have a thing about planes walkers. Sorry, well no, just anytime 396 00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:55.319 someone's plays a planes walker, I'm known for trying to immediately remove that planes 397 00:28:55.359 --> 00:28:59.200 walker plans walker has gun should use. After my time in Magic and so 398 00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:04.319 I'm I still refuse to accept that they're in my Magic. Hastag my magic, 399 00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:10.200 but its zone brings out of planes walker it needs it needs to leave. 400 00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:12.920 I did not abide by planes walkers. I mean when I came back 401 00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:17.000 to Magic, I didn't understand plans Walkers. But it's been like ten or 402 00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:22.359 fifteen years, Brom. I know, Michael Keaton was really good as Batman, 403 00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:30.480 but there have been other Batman's. Well, so let's kind of broaden 404 00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:33.759 this out a bit because to me, all the things we're saying, especially 405 00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:37.599 kind of let's kind of runs out of it because to me, all the 406 00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.160 things that we've been saying, especially for both of you, about like you 407 00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:45.160 know, setting social expectations, and like, am I right in thinking that 408 00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:48.119 that's kind of just a mirror of what happens in any community or like how 409 00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:52.039 we build communities and friendships and friend groups in the like, Yeah, I 410 00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:59.880 think definitely. I Mean this happens all the time when making friends or having 411 00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:03.039 friend groups. You know, like if you're if you're not all on the 412 00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:07.920 same page about like the expectations of your friend group, it's not gonna work. 413 00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:10.920 You know, Like if you if you have a friend group where like 414 00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:15.359 some of them are like, hey, we're gonna hang out once a week, 415 00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:18.039 twice a week, whatever. This is like what we're committing to, 416 00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:23.240 and some of you can't make that happen, Like it's it gets uncomfortable because 417 00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:26.200 some of these people have these expectations that you're going to be committing all this 418 00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:30.759 time that you just like don't have or don't want to spend. Whereas you 419 00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:34.759 know, some friends you have, maybe the expectation is set that like, 420 00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:37.920 hey, we're going to see each other like twice a year, but those 421 00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:41.000 two times are going to be really solid. Yeah, you know, I 422 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:44.799 think it's very common for someone to be like, this is my best friend 423 00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:48.519 who I've known since I was five. We talk once a year, but 424 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:52.519 it's like a big catch up session, you know. And as long as 425 00:30:52.519 --> 00:30:56.880 everyone's on the same page about that and everyone is cool with the relationship taking 426 00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:02.839 that form, that's fine. But if people don't have matching expectations, then 427 00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:07.079 like those relationships just aren't going to work. Yeah. Absolutely, I guess. 428 00:31:07.079 --> 00:31:12.599 I will say playing magic, the gathering with both strangers and my friends, 429 00:31:12.920 --> 00:31:22.039 has helped me developed my communication skills about expectations specifically. It's also it's 430 00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:29.640 also taught me the importance of grammar and the difference between you know, like 431 00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:33.519 may or not man and you know, stuff like this. So like, 432 00:31:33.160 --> 00:31:38.240 you know, magic, the gathering just in general is ingrained in my blood 433 00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:45.720 for the you know, the adult that I've seen myself become. But yeah, 434 00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:52.920 communication setting expectations, Uh, you can't. It's hard to have a 435 00:31:53.079 --> 00:31:59.680 universal good time without that. Yeah, totally one of my favorite examples I've 436 00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:04.079 seen this where someone clearly had like learned the language from magic, because, 437 00:32:04.119 --> 00:32:07.519 as I said, there was you know this rule zero conversation. It's that 438 00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:10.240 likes, it's the specific let's set our expectations. I was with a group 439 00:32:10.279 --> 00:32:15.440 of friends who often play eedh and there was a birthday party for one of 440 00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:19.319 them that did involve a lot of friends who were from outside that particular group. 441 00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:22.200 And within that group it was the kind of folks who just if you 442 00:32:22.279 --> 00:32:25.960 said anything that couldn't any way be taken as a sexual innuendo, they were 443 00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:29.519 going to say it. And and so one of them just said, hey, 444 00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:30.559 it's great meaning you like, you know, can we just have a 445 00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:36.200 rule zero conversation about the conversation and sexual innuendo? Like half of the people 446 00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:37.160 are like, what do you mean? For the rest of us were like, 447 00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:39.599 that's actually brilliant, because what do you mean it was? He just 448 00:32:39.799 --> 00:32:43.920 like, hey, what is you know, this is something that some of 449 00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:46.519 us enjoying conversation but could make other people uncomfortable. Let's figure it out. 450 00:32:46.599 --> 00:32:51.119 And like the people who aren't used to that were like, that's really weird 451 00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:53.559 but really kind of awesome. Sure, yeah, let's figure it out. 452 00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:55.720 We figured out like, yeah, it wasn't some of them were a littless 453 00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:00.200 comfortable, so we adjusted it as needed, and it was just it was 454 00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:02.960 just such a great example of using this kind of you know, tech to 455 00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:06.160 to say, yeah, we're in a new group, let's just let's talk 456 00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:10.720 and figure this out. Yeah. And I think like all relationships, and 457 00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:15.839 for the record, I feel like the word relationship applies to a lot more 458 00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:19.920 than a lot of people think. Like, I think every connection between two 459 00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:23.359 humans is a relationship. I think you and I have a working relationship. 460 00:33:23.799 --> 00:33:30.319 And I think even if you look at like our discord messages together, we 461 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:35.640 had like a rule zero conversation about this recording right now, where you know, 462 00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:39.200 yeah, we set expectations about like when we're going to do it, 463 00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:44.400 how long we're going to be doing it for what we're going to discuss, 464 00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:49.119 you know, is it going to be filmed or just recorded? Am I 465 00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:52.160 expected to record? You know, like all these things, we got on 466 00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:54.079 the same page about what it's going to be, and now we can do 467 00:33:54.119 --> 00:33:58.519 it and it's a smooth and easy time because we're both on the same page 468 00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:01.000 about it. Yeah. I love that. I've never thought of in those 469 00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:05.440 terms, But you're so right. And part of why I think it becomes 470 00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:08.039 so important is, especially when you're trying to an Adia. As an example 471 00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:13.320 of this, find people who share a common interest because, like I think, 472 00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:16.000 another version of this I've seen is within the Star Wars community, because 473 00:34:16.280 --> 00:34:21.280 there's an awful lot of people who like talking about Star Wars online, and 474 00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:25.360 some of them come from it from very different perspectives. And I quickly realized, 475 00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:29.079 like, I don't want to talk to people who are going to constantly 476 00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:32.400 make me defend liking Ray or you know, thinking that maybe women have a 477 00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:36.119 place in the Star Wars or queer people have a place in Star Wars, 478 00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:39.239 and so little kind of sub communities have formed themselves, and that's more of 479 00:34:39.239 --> 00:34:45.559 a clear like good and bad. Yeah exactly, yeah, exactly. But 480 00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:49.800 I think it could also be true of like I've definitely gone to gatherings of 481 00:34:50.119 --> 00:34:55.000 you know, polyamorous people or like music lovers or disabled people or non binary 482 00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:59.679 folks, which I am, and you know, found like like I remember 483 00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:02.960 when going to a polyamorous group in New York. Always I had like every 484 00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:07.039 polyamoris community had been a part of until then was very geeky. And I 485 00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:10.760 made a science fiction reference in this particular group in New York and no one 486 00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:14.639 got it. It was like the cool kids from high school. I discovered 487 00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:16.800 polyamory and like they were nice people, they were great. It wasn't really 488 00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:20.039 my community, but we kind of had to have a little bit of like 489 00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:22.239 you know, I think in a lot of these spaces, if you're able 490 00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:25.320 to have more that rule zero conversation of like, yeah, this is the 491 00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:29.679 level of you know, discourse we're expecting, and this is the kind of 492 00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:32.039 you know respect. We want to have a lot of formal meetings. You 493 00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:36.599 know, if you have a meeting that says like please don't interrupt, step 494 00:35:36.679 --> 00:35:38.360 up, step back, you know, we want everyone to try and speak, 495 00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:43.159 but leave room for others to speak, use eye statement, stuff like 496 00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:46.760 that. All that is a rule zero conversation. Yeah, I'm glad you 497 00:35:46.760 --> 00:35:52.559 brought up polyamory because I think no one is doing rule zero better than the 498 00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:57.480 poly community. If you ever, if you've ever been involved, if you've 499 00:35:57.519 --> 00:36:00.199 ever either been in a polyamorous relationship or gotten awf of someone in one, 500 00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:07.239 there's like, immediately just like this litigious conversation of like, here's how we 501 00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:09.400 do it, here's our rules, here's our boundaries, you know, like 502 00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:14.320 this is what I do, this is what I expect, and like anyone 503 00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:20.559 who's in a successful, healthy polyamorous relationship is like no stranger to this conversation 504 00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:27.880 and has to be having it with any potential partner encounter whatever. I completely 505 00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:30.599 agree with you in terms of the theory of polyamory. I also need to 506 00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:35.800 say, my sweet summer child, if that has been your experience in polyamory, 507 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:37.719 I am so well. Okay, I want to be very clear that 508 00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:45.960 I said any successful health Okay, I've seen the bad side of polyamory, 509 00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:50.000 don't you worry. But no, I'm not having those conversations. Yeah, 510 00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:52.559 No, it's really true, and it's I think it's it's you know, 511 00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:54.760 workplaces, like if you know, going into a workplace, I think I've 512 00:36:54.760 --> 00:36:59.639 been watching The Office recently and just continually reminding myself, like, these are 513 00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:02.159 people who I mean. Part of the problem with the rule zero conversation is 514 00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:06.800 it assumes some level of everyone's on the same power level, and when you 515 00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:13.039 have power dynamics, it can be really hard. But yeah, I end 516 00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:20.519 up sorry about the good rule zero to make it about me. I tend 517 00:37:20.559 --> 00:37:25.679 to have to kind of navigate a rule zero type situation when talking about like 518 00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:34.440 Marvel stuff, because over the last decade and a half more people know about 519 00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:37.760 who Iron Man is and who Captain America is or they saw, you know, 520 00:37:38.039 --> 00:37:43.199 the the X Men movies, and then there they come to me and 521 00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:51.400 ask and try to have a conversation about X y Z Marvel property, but 522 00:37:51.519 --> 00:37:58.599 their only frame of references from the movies when they don't know where I'm coming 523 00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:02.639 from and we have a difference of opinion on how something went down because we 524 00:38:02.760 --> 00:38:09.079 came from two different, two very different experiences, and it has led to 525 00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:15.559 I get, for lack of a better phrase, awkward conversations because we didn't 526 00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:19.880 have this rule zero, Like where are you coming from with this? What's 527 00:38:19.880 --> 00:38:24.280 your frame of reference? How can I you know? Taylor my response to 528 00:38:24.440 --> 00:38:28.719 whatever question you're about to ask me, how do you feel about thor being 529 00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:31.480 a woman, and like random stuff like that, because I don't know where 530 00:38:31.480 --> 00:38:37.679 you're coming at me from. And so if there was this socially established rule 531 00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:43.320 zero for just the way that everyone interacts with everyone, we would be such 532 00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:52.119 a happier community. Yeah, I totally get that. I've definitely started, 533 00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:54.599 because I think when you're talking about Marvel is very similar to when Star Wars 534 00:38:54.599 --> 00:38:58.719 and other online communities like that, and I've started. If a new person 535 00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:00.639 messages me, I'm always really thrilled by it, but I'm often going to 536 00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:04.840 check like a little bit of their you know, Facebook or Twitter or whatever, 537 00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:07.400 and to be like, Okay, do I see some stuff in there 538 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:10.119 that indicates to me that we are not starting or ending with the same frame 539 00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:14.519 of reference that I might just be like, yeah, that's an awesome opinion, 540 00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:16.199 thanks for sharing it, instead of like, let's let's engage here, 541 00:39:16.199 --> 00:39:21.480 because yeah, I've definitely been I've definitely been kind of suckered in there a 542 00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:24.679 little bit. And it's just you know, sometimes and sometimes it's like again, 543 00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:27.480 things where it's like, you know, I'm not going to say like 544 00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:31.639 homophobia or queerophobia or you know, sexism, racist learning that are like equally 545 00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:36.039 valid positions. They're definitely not. But I do think there are also some 546 00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:39.159 things where it's like, you know, I respect someone who's just like I 547 00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:44.840 think that everything that you know, like I hate the original movies of Star 548 00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:46.199 Wars and it's just not my thing. I'm like, Okay, that's really 549 00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:50.840 legitimate. We are not going to have a productive conversation, so I'm just 550 00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:57.760 gonna kind of pind move on, you know. So I think one of 551 00:39:57.800 --> 00:40:00.400 the things that is also really interesting about how this all play out. This 552 00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:01.880 is kind of pulling it back a little bit too magic itself, but I 553 00:40:01.880 --> 00:40:07.639 think it can. It really is illustrative of all of this is that you've 554 00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:10.679 both kind of pointed out that, you know, while Commander may have been 555 00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:14.400 a really set up as this happy little land if no one wants to win 556 00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:16.400 and which wants to have fun, and that's mythology to be sure, Like 557 00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:20.880 it's always you know, there's always been some level competition, but now there 558 00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:23.039 is becoming more and more of Wait, but what if we do really want 559 00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:25.599 to win? What if it is the way we want to have fun and 560 00:40:25.639 --> 00:40:30.960 it has merged the point where actually CEH competitive EH is Elder Dragon Highlander, 561 00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:35.039 it's another name for the Commander format. There's a whole set of politics there 562 00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:37.880 that I can't discuss from other two months till my NDA runs out. But 563 00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:44.079 putting on aside, like, I'd love to hear your both thoughts on that 564 00:40:44.119 --> 00:40:45.480 because I think a lot of people within the I think there's been a lot 565 00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:50.800 of tension between Commander and c EEDH, and a lot of it has resolved 566 00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:54.000 around this kind of rule zero stuff, and I think I kind of see 567 00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:57.679 a lot of fault on both sides. I don't really I'm not here to 568 00:40:57.800 --> 00:41:00.199 adjudicate that necessarily, but just talk about, like what has that been like 569 00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:06.719 in terms of seeing this more competitive side of Commander of all, I think, 570 00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:12.360 first of all, everyone who plays magic needs to just like chill out 571 00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:16.400 a little bit about everyone else who plays magic. Hell. Yes, I 572 00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:21.000 just we're all playing the same game. We're all on the same team. 573 00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:24.440 You're not You're not mad at me, You're you know, I don't know 574 00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:28.719 who you're mad at. But it's not it's not the Commander players, it's 575 00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:31.920 not the comp players, it's not the CDH players. It's not their fault 576 00:41:31.960 --> 00:41:37.239 that whatever cards you didn't like cat printed. So I think everyone needs to 577 00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:40.639 chill out a little bit, first of all. Second of all, I 578 00:41:40.679 --> 00:41:49.199 think that the benefit to competitive formats like CDH or Modern Pioneer or whatever is 579 00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:53.000 it circumvent the rule zero conversation a little you know, like a there's like 580 00:41:53.039 --> 00:42:00.639 a there's a pre agreed upon social contract entering into these things. Touched on 581 00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:02.360 a little bit earlier. But you know, you sit down on one of 582 00:42:02.360 --> 00:42:07.280 these games and you are expecting everyone to do everything in their power to beat 583 00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:10.199 you. They are not going to do anything to make sure you have a 584 00:42:10.199 --> 00:42:15.039 fun time. It's not about that. It is about trying to beat you. 585 00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:19.519 And for me, and I think for most competitive players, that is 586 00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:22.440 the source of the fun. You know, knowing that, like you are 587 00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:24.679 going to do everything in your power to beat me means that if I beat 588 00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:29.119 you, then like there's nothing you could have done to stop me, right, 589 00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:31.800 Like you did everything you could think to do to stop me from winning, 590 00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:36.639 and I still want That's amazing, That's an amazing feeling. That's why 591 00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:40.599 I do it. It's fun. It's just it's just fun. I think 592 00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:47.000 I think that it makes it makes total sense that CDH would form out of 593 00:42:47.199 --> 00:42:52.719 DH, because you know, it can get even when you're having these rule 594 00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:59.199 zero conversations, it can get a little tricky, especially if we're talking about 595 00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:01.760 like how strong your deck, which I think is sort of a useless conversation 596 00:43:01.960 --> 00:43:07.400 to have every period, especially if you're using like a one to ten thing, 597 00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:10.079 you know, because you know, there's like the meme of like every 598 00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:15.119 decks to seven or whatever. But because of the meme, it makes it 599 00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:17.559 even more impossible to say, because what if your deck is a seven, 600 00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:20.800 you can't say it, So now you either have to say it's a six 601 00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:24.519 or an eight. It's just like it's impossible. It's useless metric, it's 602 00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:29.840 impossible. And like I said earlier, you can power up or power down 603 00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:34.199 your own skills. So you know, maybe I say I've got a deck 604 00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:36.519 that's a five, and you say I've got a deck that's a nine, 605 00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:39.199 and then we play together anyway. But maybe I'm just like better at magic 606 00:43:39.239 --> 00:43:44.239 than you, you know, and maybe I'm just like playing differently than you're 607 00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:47.400 playing, and it feels like I didn't bring a five and you didn't bring 608 00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:52.800 a nine, and so like were we dishonest or were we just piloting different 609 00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:57.760 you know, like it's it's complete, like it's rule zero is not an 610 00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:00.800 easy conversation to have because not everyone's speaking the same language all the time. 611 00:44:01.400 --> 00:44:06.079 So if you want, if you like Commander and you also like all the 612 00:44:06.119 --> 00:44:09.000 stuff that comes with the competitive side of magic, and like, of course 613 00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:13.679 you're gonna want to marry those two things, well, I think I think 614 00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:20.800 competitive anything is just the natural outcome of multiple people playing multiple games over and 615 00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:22.719 over and over again. I mean, like, you know, you have 616 00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:28.039 your pet deck. As soon as it loses, you start looking into how 617 00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:32.119 to make it better, and then just eventually enough people go through that iteration 618 00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:36.880 enough times and you're going to have this community that just has like the most 619 00:44:37.159 --> 00:44:45.159 tuned and tweaked versions of their deck. But I will say that going for 620 00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:53.719 me personally, going from my playgroup and how we have like made ourselves get 621 00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:58.159 stronger and have better decks and learn how to play and I learn how to 622 00:44:58.199 --> 00:45:04.960 read the board to my experience there and then go to a con and then 623 00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:07.559 sit down with randoms and they're like, hey, you don't want to play, 624 00:45:07.800 --> 00:45:12.400 Like sure, absolutely, let's do a pickup game. So rule zero, 625 00:45:12.599 --> 00:45:14.480 what you know? What are you? What are you working with? 626 00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:19.280 I'm like, I've got goblins, I don't what do you. I don't 627 00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:22.679 know what else to tell you other than I'm going to run a mono red 628 00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:27.519 deck. It really likes tokens and it tries to do mean things with it. 629 00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:30.599 I don't know where that sits in terms of power level for me. 630 00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:32.280 I don't know where that sits in terms of power level from your perspective. 631 00:45:32.840 --> 00:45:37.760 But I've been told that this is high power. So here you go. 632 00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:42.119 And but like, I don't I could never even begin to tell you what 633 00:45:42.159 --> 00:45:45.400 that means. Yeah, I think it's so true, and I'm gonna make 634 00:45:45.400 --> 00:45:50.440 a weird analogy here, but I think it makes sense because you're talking for 635 00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:57.039 about monogamy and polyamory. I think you're right that polyamory requires a rule zero 636 00:45:57.079 --> 00:46:00.760 conversation in part because, like you said, with competitive magic, like most 637 00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:06.440 competitive games, there's an assumed rule zero. I think the cultural assumption of 638 00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:10.760 monogamy is the assumed rule zero. And you know what, I would say, 639 00:46:10.760 --> 00:46:14.239 they're in that case, there was not exactly the same because I think 640 00:46:14.239 --> 00:46:16.639 part of the thing is that And again here. I don't think polyamory is 641 00:46:16.679 --> 00:46:21.480 better. I just think that the way monogamy is taught and understood is problematic 642 00:46:21.559 --> 00:46:24.880 in that it's the same thing most people say, like, don't get too 643 00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:28.559 close to someone else, So okay, well what the hell does that mean? 644 00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:32.559 You know, And someone thinks that texting someone of the gender you're attracted 645 00:46:32.599 --> 00:46:36.840 to late at night is cheating, and someone else says that, like doing 646 00:46:36.840 --> 00:46:38.559 these kind of karaoke with them is cheating, and someone else thinks, like, 647 00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:42.320 no, all that's fine, just don't kiss them, or someone else 648 00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:47.960 thinks kissing is fine, just don't like the Instagram is not okay, right, 649 00:46:49.159 --> 00:46:52.840 and like and even with magic, I would say, like, I 650 00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:57.880 have been in places where some amount of trash talking is completely legitimate and expected, 651 00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:00.519 and other places where that would get you thrown out of the store or 652 00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:02.719 at least given a strict warning and maybe thrown an out of the store. 653 00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:08.239 So all that you used to say to say that and then specific to magic, 654 00:47:08.360 --> 00:47:10.239 I agree with you that, yeah. That So one of the things 655 00:47:10.280 --> 00:47:14.400 that can make rual zero so much better is when you get more specific, 656 00:47:14.559 --> 00:47:16.960 you know, so like in my play groups, it was never really officially 657 00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:20.079 said until we all kind of realize that, yeah, we're doing this, 658 00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:23.159 let's just agree on this. The general rule is you don't use tutors for 659 00:47:23.239 --> 00:47:25.920 wind cons. You know what I mean by that is like tutors are a 660 00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:31.119 kind of card that goes and finds another card. And so because the idea 661 00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:34.400 of being that one thing that we like is as you were saying, will 662 00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:37.199 the chaos and that you don't you have a hundred card deck. Each one 663 00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:38.800 is different. You don't know what you're going to get, and so every 664 00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:42.840 time a person plays a deck, they're always tutoring for the same card to 665 00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:45.960 win the game the same way. That's just not what we play find fun. 666 00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:49.360 Others it's, you know, you don't like the fast manner cards, 667 00:47:49.400 --> 00:47:52.440 the cards that allow you to build up resources really fast like others. It's 668 00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:59.400 more, you know, you know whatever it is, it's the it's how 669 00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:00.639 do you have that come station? That gets a lot more specific because you're 670 00:48:00.679 --> 00:48:05.960 right, which is power level. We can be saying the same words but 671 00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:13.920 means totally different things. Yeah, definitely, I think it's I think it's 672 00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:17.280 really tricky. I think I think, honestly, what people need to try 673 00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:23.320 and be better at is kind of managing this on the fly a little bit 674 00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:28.079 in games because I think for me, a lot of a lot of how 675 00:48:28.119 --> 00:48:30.679 this goes is very improvisational, you know. It's very kind of like what 676 00:48:30.679 --> 00:48:35.320 you said earlier, like if someone's stuck on two lands, I'm gonna like 677 00:48:35.400 --> 00:48:39.000 treat them with kid gloves until they get set up. I'm not gonna even 678 00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:43.239 if, like you know, if I was in like a tournament, playing 679 00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:47.320 like a competitive format, I'm just gonna bully that person till they're dead, 680 00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:50.920 you know, Like I'm just gonna be like, oh, you've exposed a 681 00:48:50.920 --> 00:48:53.639 weakness. I'm gonna take advantage of it. That's the game. But this 682 00:48:53.719 --> 00:48:58.719 is like a casual format that's made for fun. Something I'll say a lot 683 00:48:59.719 --> 00:49:02.960 Inmander games, especially on stream, is I'll start my turn and I'll look 684 00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:06.880 at a person who I know I can kill that turn, and I'll say, 685 00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:09.920 hey, do you not want to be playing anymore? Do you not 686 00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:14.719 want to be in this game any longer? Which is kind of like a 687 00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:19.119 very life It's kind of a very intimidating thing to ask somebody, but it's 688 00:49:19.639 --> 00:49:22.119 it's a very gracious question, you know, to be like, hey, 689 00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:27.079 do you want to keep playing or are you good? Because like I could 690 00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:30.320 take you out. I could, I could take you out right now. 691 00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:32.079 And you know, sometimes people are like, yeah, go ahead, take 692 00:49:32.119 --> 00:49:36.320 me out. And sometimes they're like please one more turn, I beg and 693 00:49:36.360 --> 00:49:38.199 I'm like, all right, I'll just you know, whittle down this other 694 00:49:38.239 --> 00:49:42.480 person, no big deal. And maybe they take their turn and they go 695 00:49:42.519 --> 00:49:45.880 off and they win. But that's cool because like, yeah, we're all 696 00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:51.360 just we're all just goofing off. I think it's yeah, yeah, I 697 00:49:51.880 --> 00:49:58.400 helped you get there. But I think it's also important to be very clear 698 00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:04.280 and honest throughout the game before and during about like what your deck is doing 699 00:50:04.840 --> 00:50:07.920 and like what is threatening about it. Like when I play my Collie at 700 00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:13.039 Zack. Before the game, I'll be like, I'm gonna get Collie out 701 00:50:13.079 --> 00:50:15.679 the first turn I'm available to do. So if you don't have an answer 702 00:50:15.719 --> 00:50:20.880 for her, that's bad news for you. Like you need to have an 703 00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:23.039 answer for her. She might be able to swing the turn she comes out, 704 00:50:23.079 --> 00:50:27.679 you know, like you need to be prepared for that. And then 705 00:50:27.800 --> 00:50:30.320 like they know before they even draw their hand, like I need some mulligan 706 00:50:30.639 --> 00:50:35.239 until I have like at least one removable spell. I need to answer Collia 707 00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:37.719 or I'm dead. And if they don't do it like I did my best 708 00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:40.119 I like, I'll play her and be like, all right, she's here, 709 00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:43.960 Like I'm not gonna tell you what's in my hand, but you can 710 00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:46.119 bet there's an angel or devil or whatever in here, you know, like 711 00:50:46.760 --> 00:50:50.800 it's gonna get scary if you can't do anything about it. Or when I 712 00:50:50.800 --> 00:50:53.079 play my Merfylkzak, I'll be like, hey, I played this guy. 713 00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:57.840 It's gonna next turn. Let me go get this thing. I could potentially 714 00:50:57.920 --> 00:51:00.920 take infinite turns, just so you know, you know, like just be 715 00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:05.639 because there's so much to keep track of. There's like a million cards to 716 00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:10.360 know. It's it's unfair to your opponents to be like you should know. 717 00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:14.639 Justin a game I had the other night, someone was choosing where to put 718 00:51:14.679 --> 00:51:16.320 a single point of damage and I was like, hey, I know the 719 00:51:16.360 --> 00:51:21.119 board state is really crazy right now, just so you know this one one 720 00:51:21.199 --> 00:51:22.360 creature is the one you want to kill. And they're like, okay, 721 00:51:22.400 --> 00:51:25.480 thank you, and I'm like, yeah, you're welcome. I love that, 722 00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:28.599 And I know that it ties in really well to something you were talking 723 00:51:28.639 --> 00:51:30.960 about the very beginning, which is how do we make this game more friendly 724 00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:35.599 to new players? Because in many ways, e DH is the game that 725 00:51:35.679 --> 00:51:38.119 a lot of new players are finding, in part because it is a social 726 00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:42.000 thing. It is, Hey, I'm having friends over the house to play 727 00:51:42.039 --> 00:51:44.719 this game Tuesday night. Do you want to come and join? I can 728 00:51:44.719 --> 00:51:47.760 teach you the game. But also, like to people who know the rules, 729 00:51:47.840 --> 00:51:52.280 that seems absolutely, you know, bonkers, because it is so much 730 00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:55.960 more complicated rules wise, and I know that can be a real feel bad 731 00:51:57.039 --> 00:52:00.559 is if you're invited to and you're constantly a situation like, oh, I 732 00:52:00.599 --> 00:52:04.159 didn't know that when you did that it would lead to this and so and 733 00:52:04.199 --> 00:52:07.000 so I think helping players like that is so great and and so that leads 734 00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:10.480 me to a question of like, how do you That's a great example, 735 00:52:10.519 --> 00:52:13.880 but beyond that, what else do you do to kind of help make EH 736 00:52:14.960 --> 00:52:17.440 more friendly to new players? Because I think it can be super intimidating when 737 00:52:17.480 --> 00:52:21.639 it's all these cards people don't know, people don't want to ask to read 738 00:52:21.679 --> 00:52:23.639 every single card, but there's so much things on the board. How do 739 00:52:23.719 --> 00:52:25.800 you how do you build that community? And that's to both of you, 740 00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:35.480 So I'm not personally an MTG content creator, so I can only speak from 741 00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:39.639 like the experiences that I've been part of, but I want to I want 742 00:52:39.639 --> 00:52:46.920 to add my uh star of approval for the like open communication like I've been 743 00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:52.199 I've had the opportunity to be on a couple of different creators twitches, twitch 744 00:52:52.280 --> 00:53:00.559 channels, playing with absolutely brand new people and being open about my deck and 745 00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:04.239 them being open about their deck of like, hey, since you guys didn't 746 00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:07.760 counter this, or if you don't counter this, these this is the cascade 747 00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:12.880 of things that's going to happen, and I'm going to win. Just I've 748 00:53:12.920 --> 00:53:17.119 never had that experience in person, like at a at an event or anything, 749 00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:22.079 and so like, I feel like the format of all of us being 750 00:53:22.599 --> 00:53:30.760 not in front of each other and staring down each other's boards has ended up 751 00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:34.440 creating a situation where hell, hey, look, communication is important and so 752 00:53:34.519 --> 00:53:39.039 we're more open about this kind of stuff from my experience when I'm when I've 753 00:53:39.079 --> 00:53:45.280 been playing with like with my neighbor's he plays and he has a very different 754 00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:52.559 power level. Cool I just perpetuated, but he plays very differently than me 755 00:53:52.599 --> 00:53:55.840 and my friends do. Like, for whatever reason, he and his friends 756 00:53:57.159 --> 00:54:01.599 don't even track Commander damage because for X y Z reason. I don't entirely 757 00:54:01.639 --> 00:54:06.400 know why, but because it's annoying to do, I guess, And so 758 00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:09.599 that's my friend of reference. And so I know that they haven't seen a 759 00:54:09.639 --> 00:54:15.039 handful of cards or texts that I will be bringing to the table. And 760 00:54:15.079 --> 00:54:17.840 so when I first play a card, I'll play it up. I'll play 761 00:54:17.880 --> 00:54:22.360 it facing them, so I can just easily show them and just be like, 762 00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:25.440 hey, I'm going to play Goblin Engineer, I guess, and so 763 00:54:25.559 --> 00:54:29.679 like I'll scoot it over and let them read it, and like, I'm 764 00:54:29.719 --> 00:54:34.440 not going to play the three cards that this main phase one that I want 765 00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:39.559 to play until everyone understands each card that I am going to play, and 766 00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:45.679 so likes it just slows down the pace from what you, as the deck 767 00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:52.760 owner might be used to, but from a community and bringing new people and 768 00:54:52.880 --> 00:54:58.320 teaching new things perspective, letting people read the cards and not expecting everyone to 769 00:54:58.360 --> 00:55:04.199 know every single damn card because there's only a few thousand. It's just makes 770 00:55:04.280 --> 00:55:09.199 things easier for and I feel like makes for a better experience with the whole 771 00:55:09.199 --> 00:55:16.400 pod, the whole table. Yeah, So I've I've brought a ton of 772 00:55:16.440 --> 00:55:22.000 people into magic. I'm very familiar with teachings someone how to play magic. 773 00:55:22.039 --> 00:55:25.320 I think I'm pretty good at teaching people how to play magic. For starters, 774 00:55:25.360 --> 00:55:30.599 I would say I would never teach someone magic with Commander. That's never 775 00:55:30.679 --> 00:55:35.519 what I would what I would do. I think Commander is the game that 776 00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:42.119 like you learn magic and then you can like play Commander. But the way 777 00:55:42.159 --> 00:55:45.719 that, the way I always start when I'm teaching people in person is you 778 00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:49.639 know, I'll get a couple of pretty simple decks. We'll do like a 779 00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:52.599 one v one, but we'll both play with our hands exposed, so we'll 780 00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:57.480 fail their hands exposed, and I'll like walk them through their turn, their 781 00:55:57.519 --> 00:56:00.719 phases, what they can do. We'll talk about options because they'll be like, 782 00:56:00.760 --> 00:56:02.719 oh, I could play this creature or this creature, and I'll be 783 00:56:02.719 --> 00:56:05.880 like, which one do you think you should play? Why do you think 784 00:56:05.920 --> 00:56:08.039 one's better than the other? Right now, get them to start like thinking 785 00:56:08.719 --> 00:56:12.760 like a magic player, and we'll do that one or two times, and 786 00:56:12.800 --> 00:56:17.400 then play a game with our hands closed and do that and then you know, 787 00:56:17.480 --> 00:56:21.760 just wait till they get the hang of it. But it's so hard 788 00:56:21.760 --> 00:56:30.400 with Commander because there's four board states, there's potentially like four hundred unique cards 789 00:56:30.599 --> 00:56:36.679 at the table in your deck. There's definitely like upwards of you know, 790 00:56:37.079 --> 00:56:42.159 ninety nine unique cards or a hundred unique cards that you could have just on 791 00:56:42.199 --> 00:56:45.360 your own. That's so much like that's so much to draw hand, and 792 00:56:45.400 --> 00:56:50.280 there'll be seven different cards you've never seen and they're like, all right, 793 00:56:50.280 --> 00:56:52.440 take your turn, Like what do you mean I have to read like a 794 00:56:52.519 --> 00:56:57.880 novel before I can even like understand what's going on here. So I think 795 00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:04.159 just like guiding players through it as best as you can, being very clear 796 00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:08.440 about like what you have and what's scary. And I mean, if someone's 797 00:57:08.480 --> 00:57:14.079 new enough, you kind of need to just like I don't want to say 798 00:57:14.079 --> 00:57:15.880 like baby them, but like you need to treat them like the player who's 799 00:57:15.880 --> 00:57:21.079 stuck on two lands at least a little bit, you know, because you 800 00:57:21.119 --> 00:57:25.400 all need to be cognizant of the fact that they aren't like it's going to 801 00:57:25.480 --> 00:57:30.119 take more for them. Like everything they're doing is harder for them because they're 802 00:57:30.199 --> 00:57:34.119 learning everything as you're laying it down and you're just like, all right, 803 00:57:34.159 --> 00:57:37.119 I played this is this trigger Like all this stuff that's like automatic for all 804 00:57:37.159 --> 00:57:42.199 of us have been playing it for a long time, but just like extremely 805 00:57:42.239 --> 00:57:45.559 overwhelming for a new player. And I think it's also important to let them 806 00:57:45.559 --> 00:57:49.559 know when they can turn their brain off a little bit. You know, 807 00:57:49.599 --> 00:57:53.000 you're like, hey, this person's like doing this like combo thing. Don't 808 00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:58.519 even worry about it, like you you're tapped out. Just let it happen. 809 00:57:58.519 --> 00:58:00.960 We're just gonna see what shakes out at the end of it. Who 810 00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:02.960 cares, you know, like you do not need to be tracking this, 811 00:58:04.119 --> 00:58:07.000 And then like the relief that washes over their face and they're like, oh, 812 00:58:07.039 --> 00:58:08.360 thank god. I was so confused, and I was like, yeah, 813 00:58:08.360 --> 00:58:12.719 don't worry, it's it's weird. Yeah. I used to teach magic 814 00:58:12.760 --> 00:58:15.199 at a story I helped run or I manage their events, and I'm in 815 00:58:15.199 --> 00:58:17.920 the same way. I would never teach someone DH, but I certainly know 816 00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:22.039 others who do. And in my friend group, as someone who sometimes brings 817 00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:23.320 someone who like like, yeah, I haven't teaching the Mediah. This is 818 00:58:23.320 --> 00:58:25.880 gonna be their first game with other people, and yeah, we'll do very 819 00:58:25.960 --> 00:58:29.920 much that same kind of a thing. And I think part of that is 820 00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:32.320 and that's kind of been a big part of this whole conversation is there's a 821 00:58:32.440 --> 00:58:37.159 very big difference between sitting down with strangers versus playing with a group of friends, 822 00:58:37.559 --> 00:58:39.920 you know. And to me, I mean, the best way to 823 00:58:39.960 --> 00:58:43.280 do that is like get people over on a Tuesday night. I love to 824 00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:45.280 cook for people. But also like, if you just go to your lgs 825 00:58:45.320 --> 00:58:49.320 pretty regularly, you know, you're mostly going to see the same people and 826 00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:52.199 you're going to develop friendships or at least, as you were saying, Nile 827 00:58:52.280 --> 00:58:55.400 like relationships or some kind and and levels of trust and understanding the expectation of 828 00:58:55.400 --> 00:58:59.159 each other. And I think, you know, as a total of a 829 00:58:59.199 --> 00:59:01.239 total newbie who no one knows it comes in and asks to learn Commander. 830 00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:04.280 Yeah, I'm probably not going to shoot them out of the game. I'm 831 00:59:04.280 --> 00:59:07.519 gonna try and direct them in some other way. And when it is that 832 00:59:07.599 --> 00:59:14.559 new person, like really hope it's with a group of friends, because yeah, 833 00:59:14.840 --> 00:59:16.679 I think all the things you're saying, like there's an attitude of yeah, 834 00:59:16.840 --> 00:59:21.480 Okay, this won't be the most fun Commander game I play. But 835 00:59:21.840 --> 00:59:24.000 if we do this, this new person gets to be part of our you 836 00:59:24.079 --> 00:59:25.679 know, group, and they're a friend of mine. I want them to 837 00:59:25.719 --> 00:59:29.159 hang out with me on Tuesday nights. So of course let's do this. 838 00:59:29.559 --> 00:59:31.960 Yeah, if I if I have my pick of like if I have to 839 00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:37.039 teach someone magic via Commander, the way I want to do it is there's 840 00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:40.599 five people at the table, and I am just like playing with the new 841 00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:44.760 person, you know, like, yeah, I am sitting over their shoulder, 842 00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:50.480 I'm their yami yugi. I am like there their guardian who's just like 843 00:59:50.639 --> 00:59:52.519 I'm gonna like, you're gonna be making all the decisions. I'm just gonna 844 00:59:52.519 --> 00:59:58.079 like point out what's possible. We're going to talk through options together. I'm 845 00:59:58.079 --> 01:00:00.199 gonna make sure you're not gonna get bullied at the table. I'm going to 846 01:00:00.280 --> 01:00:05.679 make sure that you stay okay. Uh yeah, I think that's that's I 847 01:00:05.719 --> 01:00:08.920 think the best way if like you have to bring a new person into Commander 848 01:00:12.199 --> 01:00:15.400 Rand much self, Rand Muchself. So I want to bring up one last 849 01:00:15.480 --> 01:00:17.239 question and then in our member only section, we're gonna talk a little bit 850 01:00:17.239 --> 01:00:21.159 more about community building and things like that. And uh noill, I know 851 01:00:21.639 --> 01:00:23.840 the stuff that now let's talk and you know the stuff that now let's talked 852 01:00:23.840 --> 01:00:28.119 about about specifically doing queer content. I want to ask her about that, 853 01:00:28.280 --> 01:00:30.360 and so that'll be in the member only section. The last thing I want 854 01:00:30.360 --> 01:00:34.239 to ask is and this comes off of a point you made now, but 855 01:00:34.280 --> 01:00:37.840 also Will I think that's what we're elevant to you. Let me give it 856 01:00:37.920 --> 01:00:42.920 a bit of background here. Some of the terms that are used in magic 857 01:00:43.079 --> 01:00:49.960 are spike and what are the other psychographics that I'm Timmy, Yeah, Timmy, 858 01:00:50.239 --> 01:00:55.000 And the idea of them is that magic did the study of like trying 859 01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:59.760 to understand all the different reasons why people play magic, and that spikes where 860 01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:04.280 the people who now you were talking about like who the primary joy that get 861 01:01:04.280 --> 01:01:07.519 out of magic is winning, and that Timmy is more kind of I think 862 01:01:07.559 --> 01:01:09.440 what I'm probably getting get wrong because there's Timmy and there's a third Johnny as 863 01:01:09.480 --> 01:01:13.400 a third one, and one of them is that I really want to express 864 01:01:13.440 --> 01:01:15.840 themselves with their deck, and a third one is like kind of stuff you 865 01:01:15.880 --> 01:01:19.079 were talking about, Will if you want to do something like wild and crazy 866 01:01:19.119 --> 01:01:23.239 with your deck that you haven't gotten to see. And I got into magic 867 01:01:23.360 --> 01:01:27.599 around the time that that discourse was really strong. It's kind of faded over 868 01:01:27.639 --> 01:01:30.079 time, but one of the things that people told me a lot about Commander 869 01:01:30.119 --> 01:01:35.880 is it's a place to get away from the spikes. And I admit that 870 01:01:35.920 --> 01:01:37.760 I'm saying this in a little bit of a kind of like self lap laughing 871 01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:40.559 at myself way, because I think it's a little unfair. But I think 872 01:01:40.599 --> 01:01:45.480 there was a strong attitude of yeah, we don't. We don't want that 873 01:01:45.559 --> 01:01:49.719 kind of competitive idea at our table. This is something that no spike is 874 01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:52.239 ever gonna have fun at because they're gonna lose seventy five percent at the time 875 01:01:52.280 --> 01:01:55.079 probably or else. We didn't talk about their deck level or their play stile 876 01:01:55.719 --> 01:01:59.719 and Nile is making eyebrown movements that I wish we were on video for. 877 01:02:00.760 --> 01:02:04.199 I have this feeling, Nile that if you'd come into my playgroup, you'll 878 01:02:04.199 --> 01:02:07.119 like lose the first couple of times and then just dominate. We'll all feel 879 01:02:07.119 --> 01:02:13.639 like we got hustles, but it'll be fantastic, okay, like quick aside. 880 01:02:13.679 --> 01:02:15.239 One thing I've learned playing poker is because there again, like the way 881 01:02:15.239 --> 01:02:19.000 I played poker with my friends and the way I played poker at a casino 882 01:02:19.119 --> 01:02:22.280 is very different. But I intentionally try to be very entertaining at a casino 883 01:02:22.599 --> 01:02:25.760 because I want people to feel like they're getting they're getting their moneys with because 884 01:02:25.760 --> 01:02:29.159 they're probably going to give their money to me, but I want them to 885 01:02:29.199 --> 01:02:31.880 feel entertained anyway. My point is, I think, and I think so 886 01:02:31.960 --> 01:02:36.800 for a lot of people, there was this kind of like this is our 887 01:02:36.840 --> 01:02:40.039 place away from the spikes because we're frustrated that so much of magic is all 888 01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:44.559 about the spikes. And this was many years ago, like today, I 889 01:02:44.639 --> 01:02:47.159 think if you go to a magic event, especially the magic cons but anything, 890 01:02:47.599 --> 01:02:52.519 there's a lot of Commander out there, and there's commander decks and all 891 01:02:52.559 --> 01:02:55.039 this stuff. But commander used to feel like the redheaded stepchild. And I'd 892 01:02:55.039 --> 01:03:00.760 say that as a redhead who has a stepmader, And I think that was 893 01:03:00.840 --> 01:03:02.480 part of why a lot of us kind of got our hackles up when we 894 01:03:02.480 --> 01:03:06.960 first started, when when c Eedh first started coming in, and I think 895 01:03:07.000 --> 01:03:09.119 there's problems on both sides. I think a lot of people were were upset 896 01:03:09.159 --> 01:03:14.199 about it. And I've definitely come to a much befferent place and now hearing 897 01:03:14.239 --> 01:03:16.960 a story like yours of someone who can really have that competitive mindset but also 898 01:03:17.039 --> 01:03:21.639 enjoy other things, it helps a lot. And so I want to hear 899 01:03:21.719 --> 01:03:23.960 you from you, but also from you will, like how do you shift 900 01:03:23.960 --> 01:03:28.360 that mindset? Because or maybe a way to start is when you're in that 901 01:03:28.440 --> 01:03:31.199 mindset of I want to win, and that's what's going to give me joy. 902 01:03:31.360 --> 01:03:35.639 I imagine losing isn't the most fun thing in the world. And so 903 01:03:35.880 --> 01:03:39.199 how do you how do you deal with losing when you're in that competitive mindset? 904 01:03:39.239 --> 01:03:43.000 But also then how do you change the mindset so that you can find 905 01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:49.599 a different kind of fun. Well, so for me, and I have 906 01:03:49.679 --> 01:03:53.599 been referred to before as a Spiko path to give you a concept of like, 907 01:03:53.719 --> 01:03:59.239 Okay, how I approach how I approach this stuff. To me, 908 01:03:59.440 --> 01:04:06.239 losing does not bothering me, especially especially losing in competitive situations. It doesn't. 909 01:04:06.320 --> 01:04:11.000 It doesn't really bug me. It doesn't get me down. If anything, 910 01:04:11.039 --> 01:04:14.800 it drives me to want to play more. It's like my whole my 911 01:04:14.920 --> 01:04:17.000 whole thing is just like if you beat me, I'm just gonna think about, 912 01:04:17.039 --> 01:04:19.480 like what could I have done better? You know, Like I'm always 913 01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:25.360 my competition is always against myself, you know, Like my competition is always 914 01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:30.840 what could I have done differently or better? And sometimes the answer is not 915 01:04:30.920 --> 01:04:32.360 a whole lot. Sometimes the answer is, well, maybe if I had 916 01:04:32.400 --> 01:04:35.480 taken this line, who knows where I would have ended up that game, 917 01:04:35.639 --> 01:04:40.840 And that just that excites me, that like keeps me invested in it. 918 01:04:40.960 --> 01:04:45.840 You know. I think if you really get down about losing, then the 919 01:04:45.880 --> 01:04:49.039 competitive scene just like isn't for you, Like you just you're not gonna You're 920 01:04:49.039 --> 01:04:54.440 not gonna have a good time because you'd forged in Fire through losing in that 921 01:04:54.480 --> 01:05:00.639 scene. It also super doesn't bother me in Commander because there's three other people 922 01:05:00.679 --> 01:05:02.760 there. You know, it's chaos. Even if I'm like playing my heart 923 01:05:02.760 --> 01:05:08.159 out, I still like I'm I'm at the mercy of three people, you 924 01:05:08.199 --> 01:05:11.599 know, Like you now, I don't think I'm losing seventy five percent of 925 01:05:11.599 --> 01:05:15.079 my games, which is why I was good. But I get it, 926 01:05:15.119 --> 01:05:20.599 I get it, but yeah, I the hard thing for me when I 927 01:05:20.599 --> 01:05:27.239 was first getting into Commander was getting like getting into the mindset that not everyone 928 01:05:27.440 --> 01:05:30.559 is a crazy little spichopath like me. You know, like not everyone, 929 01:05:30.719 --> 01:05:33.599 like some people are affected by losing, and that's okay, Like it's not 930 01:05:34.199 --> 01:05:39.920 it's not bad if you feel bad about losing, but you know, just 931 01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:43.280 like getting your decent person about it. Sure, yeah, yeah, as 932 01:05:43.320 --> 01:05:45.559 long as you're not like salting off at the table. But it's okay to 933 01:05:45.599 --> 01:05:49.840 be invested in what you're doing. Like sure, but you know, having 934 01:05:49.880 --> 01:05:54.320 to get into the mindset of like, oh, you know, like these 935 01:05:54.360 --> 01:06:00.920 people aren't extracting fun out of like getting all of their spells answered, you 936 01:06:00.960 --> 01:06:03.519 know, like they don't they don't like it that I haven't answered all their 937 01:06:03.559 --> 01:06:10.440 threats. That's just like not that's like learning how to approach it in a 938 01:06:10.480 --> 01:06:14.199 way that was most entertaining for everyone at the table was tricky. It was 939 01:06:14.239 --> 01:06:18.280 tricky to turn off, like the competitive part. But once I was able 940 01:06:18.320 --> 01:06:25.000 to, like, it's a very it's it's a very fun like board game 941 01:06:25.079 --> 01:06:29.320 experience I feel playing Commander, Like it's just it's a fun way to see 942 01:06:29.360 --> 01:06:32.400 like what weird stuff people brought, what weird bruise people came up with. 943 01:06:33.960 --> 01:06:39.599 It's fun to get to like be the threat and like do a little bit 944 01:06:39.599 --> 01:06:43.639 of spiky stuff and you know, pop off a little bit and have like 945 01:06:43.679 --> 01:06:45.920 three people try to stop you. Even when they succeed, you're like that 946 01:06:46.000 --> 01:06:49.039 was fun, Like I got to be the heel. I got to I 947 01:06:49.079 --> 01:06:51.360 got to be the thing everyone wanted to kill. It was a fun time. 948 01:06:55.239 --> 01:07:04.199 Yeah, I guess the I don't mind if if I lose a good 949 01:07:04.239 --> 01:07:12.119 game, Like if everyone's doing their thing and I went in hard and I 950 01:07:12.280 --> 01:07:16.039 lost, that's gonna sit with me mentally, and I'm going to go through 951 01:07:16.079 --> 01:07:20.360 all the different other paths I could have run to try to change the outcome 952 01:07:20.360 --> 01:07:28.639 of that game. As far as feeling that the negative side of competitive nature, 953 01:07:30.800 --> 01:07:38.840 what bugs me is playing with people that that I don't want to say 954 01:07:39.400 --> 01:07:46.719 something just mean, but like we read the board differently. If you have 955 01:07:47.039 --> 01:07:54.559 someone who doesn't have much and you see a Collia on the board and from 956 01:07:54.639 --> 01:07:59.000 their personal experience, they're like, oh, goblins are the devil. We 957 01:07:59.079 --> 01:08:02.159 gotta get rid of that. Like, I'm clearly not the threat. You 958 01:08:02.239 --> 01:08:09.920 don't need to cancel my my couple of goblin tokens. If we're sitting here 959 01:08:09.960 --> 01:08:13.920 dealing with a colleague that's about to get rid of her some summoning sickness like 960 01:08:14.840 --> 01:08:17.800 that bugs me. But if it's with strangers, I can't say anything. 961 01:08:19.760 --> 01:08:26.520 When if we're playing online on somebody's switch, usually there's way more communication and 962 01:08:27.239 --> 01:08:31.399 talking through everybody's decisions and that doesn't typically happen. It's really at the cons 963 01:08:31.439 --> 01:08:34.079 whereas someone's just like, well, I don't like what you're doing, and 964 01:08:34.239 --> 01:08:41.239 just will, from my perspective, make a terrible decision that just leads to 965 01:08:41.399 --> 01:08:45.359 someone else just running over the board because now no one is equipped to deal 966 01:08:45.359 --> 01:08:50.039 with it from and the competitive side of me comes out internally. I don't 967 01:08:50.079 --> 01:08:54.600 take it out on anyone, but just like that was a terrible decision, 968 01:08:54.720 --> 01:09:00.000 and that's really that that bugs me to my core. And so from the 969 01:09:00.800 --> 01:09:06.399 from not competitive dh perspective, but just the competitive nature in myself, that's 970 01:09:06.479 --> 01:09:12.279 kind of where it comes out. But that same nature is what makes me 971 01:09:12.319 --> 01:09:15.479 want to be a better player. It's what makes me want to learn how 972 01:09:15.520 --> 01:09:24.680 to pilot my deck differently. It's what makes me overall become, in my 973 01:09:24.720 --> 01:09:28.319 opinion, a better Magic player. And so I'm okay, I'll take I'll 974 01:09:28.359 --> 01:09:38.680 take that negative with the more positive. And I think I feel like in 975 01:09:39.239 --> 01:09:45.720 Commander, you get more opportunities to explore that side of I get more opportunities 976 01:09:45.800 --> 01:09:51.560 to explore that competitive side of me because every game is so different that like 977 01:09:53.039 --> 01:09:58.000 the situation the board is going to be so different every single time someone's going 978 01:09:58.079 --> 01:10:01.079 to have a better draw, someone's going to play either deck better or differently. 979 01:10:02.439 --> 01:10:05.920 Someone's going to switch the deck that they want to play in game too, 980 01:10:06.039 --> 01:10:09.680 and that's fine. And then where it's going to be a completely different 981 01:10:09.680 --> 01:10:15.119 situation. And because no two games are the same until you run a deck 982 01:10:15.159 --> 01:10:25.079 that's all fetches in one wind con then you can you learn to be mentally 983 01:10:25.199 --> 01:10:30.840 adaptive, which then makes it so your deck is super adaptive, so you 984 01:10:30.840 --> 01:10:35.880 can be a yugi yami for yourself and like a Caribo actually has a place 985 01:10:35.920 --> 01:10:40.880 in your deck for some reason because it's going to take down a slide for 986 01:10:40.960 --> 01:10:45.279 this guy Jock or whatever. Like just it's it's so much fun. And 987 01:10:45.600 --> 01:10:49.239 the only way I feel that's going to happen is if you kind of if 988 01:10:49.279 --> 01:10:57.000 you embrace the natural competitive side in in yourself, but you keep it in 989 01:10:57.079 --> 01:11:00.720 control so you're not lashing out of people in flipping tables. You're using that 990 01:11:00.760 --> 01:11:03.920 to drive yourself to be a better magic player. Yeah, I think you're 991 01:11:03.960 --> 01:11:08.960 so right. Well, they're like you know in some ways, And a 992 01:11:09.000 --> 01:11:12.119 lot of this podcast is my kind of apology to Spikes and my apology to 993 01:11:12.119 --> 01:11:15.880 see eight you're great people. Sometimes you're just not the people I want to 994 01:11:15.880 --> 01:11:17.520 play magic with it, where sometimes you can be because you can be a 995 01:11:17.600 --> 01:11:20.439 spike and a Timmy. I mean, I'm I'm certainly a spike and a 996 01:11:20.479 --> 01:11:24.159 Timmy when it comes to poker, you know, And so I get that 997 01:11:24.199 --> 01:11:27.479 a lot more now. But I think that's it's also just okay to be 998 01:11:27.560 --> 01:11:30.039 like you know. But because I think a part of what I'm getting out 999 01:11:30.039 --> 01:11:32.039 of this is that a lot of things that we were thinking of back then 1000 01:11:32.079 --> 01:11:34.680 when we talk about like we don't want spikes at our table, was we 1001 01:11:34.680 --> 01:11:39.399 don't want sore losers at our table, and that a spike doesn't mean that 1002 01:11:39.439 --> 01:11:43.119 by any means. It often though, can go together, but also you 1003 01:11:43.119 --> 01:11:45.319 can have other people, like a Timmy can be very salty if they don't 1004 01:11:45.319 --> 01:11:47.520 get to do the thing their neck wants to do. But like, I 1005 01:11:47.560 --> 01:11:50.520 don't think I ever realized I was doing this until we were really thinking about 1006 01:11:50.560 --> 01:11:53.800 it. But I remember now when I was playing at a store, quite 1007 01:11:53.840 --> 01:11:58.600 often I would generally not like I would invite good friends of mine because already 1008 01:11:58.640 --> 01:12:00.960 knew them and trusted how they're gonna act. But I was playing magic against 1009 01:12:01.000 --> 01:12:04.439 someone, you know, how I knew they wanted to play ADH, I 1010 01:12:04.479 --> 01:12:09.199 probably would invite them to my home games until i'd seen them lose a couple 1011 01:12:09.199 --> 01:12:12.199 of games and i'd seen how they responded and if they were able to lose 1012 01:12:12.239 --> 01:12:15.479 and be like, oh, good game. You know the person I played 1013 01:12:15.520 --> 01:12:18.439 like, she had this great, great deck and I just I learned, 1014 01:12:18.439 --> 01:12:21.039 you know, I couldn't beat it, So I gotta put these cards in 1015 01:12:21.079 --> 01:12:24.520 my deck so I can beat her next time. Like, yeah, that 1016 01:12:24.560 --> 01:12:27.039 sounds like gonna be a great you know, if the person's like, oh 1017 01:12:27.079 --> 01:12:29.680 my god, it's so unfair. I can't believe they printed that card and 1018 01:12:30.279 --> 01:12:33.039 they played this card. It was unfair or they they they must have cheated 1019 01:12:33.159 --> 01:12:39.279 or something like that. Yeah, I don't watch up my ADH table totally. 1020 01:12:40.000 --> 01:12:42.720 Yeah. Well, this has been an awesome conversation. Thank you all. 1021 01:12:43.319 --> 01:12:45.840 Either you have any kind of last things you want to say about the 1022 01:12:45.119 --> 01:12:48.960 community stuff we're building or Rule zero or Sheldon or any kind of like last 1023 01:12:48.960 --> 01:12:51.720 wrapping all this up. Yeah, So the last things I guess I'll say 1024 01:12:51.760 --> 01:12:57.520 about this is I think Commander is a very fun format. I think it 1025 01:12:57.640 --> 01:13:02.000 is as fun as the people you're playing with and with any relationship. It's 1026 01:13:02.039 --> 01:13:06.760 all about finding the people who mesh with you and the people that you get 1027 01:13:06.800 --> 01:13:11.000 along with, the play well with, and as long as you do that, 1028 01:13:11.039 --> 01:13:16.920 you're gonna have a great time. Yeah. Yeah, to play off 1029 01:13:16.960 --> 01:13:27.159 of that, I love magic and I've just just weird tangent, just like 1030 01:13:27.399 --> 01:13:31.199 how track and field in high school is the only like co ed sport, 1031 01:13:31.239 --> 01:13:35.239 and so you just it brings the most random groups of people together for the 1032 01:13:35.279 --> 01:13:42.159 same purpose. Magic has been that for me in my adult life. I've 1033 01:13:42.159 --> 01:13:47.960 met more diverse people from all kinds of different walks of life and different hobbies 1034 01:13:48.000 --> 01:13:54.159 and circle and like friends groups, playing magic, just sitting down at a 1035 01:13:54.199 --> 01:13:57.680 pod and just getting to know the people across from me and next to me 1036 01:13:59.119 --> 01:14:05.079 than any other thing hobby I've ever done. Marvel people you come across generally 1037 01:14:05.119 --> 01:14:10.720 the same type of person. Star Wars people you come across, very strongly 1038 01:14:10.760 --> 01:14:15.600 opinionated people, a lot like I'm not very strongly opinionated person. How dare 1039 01:14:15.640 --> 01:14:19.920 you think that you're come exactly right? But then you come you sit down 1040 01:14:19.960 --> 01:14:27.079 at a magic table and you have one person who is completely decked out in 1041 01:14:27.159 --> 01:14:30.439 cosplay. You have another one in like nursing scrubs. You have someone in 1042 01:14:30.479 --> 01:14:33.800 their pj's, and you have someone wearing like a three piece suit, and 1043 01:14:33.800 --> 01:14:38.640 we're all sitting down having a fun, casual game together. And that is 1044 01:14:39.039 --> 01:14:45.239 so cool. And I highly encourage anyone who is even relatively interested in checking 1045 01:14:45.279 --> 01:14:53.319 out Commander and or Magic to at least at least look into it and see 1046 01:14:53.560 --> 01:14:59.439 if something about that that world brings you in. Yeah, I thinks such 1047 01:14:59.439 --> 01:15:01.920 a great way to put I think it's it is for me, it has 1048 01:15:02.000 --> 01:15:04.239 been the basis of a lot of my friendships. Has been where a lot 1049 01:15:04.239 --> 01:15:08.560 of my friends were founded or grew. Since it back getting a podcasting, 1050 01:15:08.600 --> 01:15:12.039 that's changed in a lot of other ways too. But as you're gonna want 1051 01:15:12.039 --> 01:15:15.479 to end with, just like honoring again Sheldon, and I think he became 1052 01:15:15.560 --> 01:15:16.119 kind of the public face. And I want to say that, like, 1053 01:15:16.119 --> 01:15:18.760 there's a lot of other people on the rules committee, and I know a 1054 01:15:18.760 --> 01:15:21.800 lot of other great minds went into all the stuff with rule zero, But 1055 01:15:21.880 --> 01:15:26.239 just that it is, it is such a great concept. It's not a 1056 01:15:26.239 --> 01:15:28.560 perfect concept. As you both, I think it had a great thing to 1057 01:15:28.600 --> 01:15:30.920 say about will you will you know you point out all these things about like 1058 01:15:30.960 --> 01:15:34.520 you can have a rule zero conversation, but if using different language, even 1059 01:15:34.520 --> 01:15:38.119 if it's the same words, it's not going to go anywhere. Like a 1060 01:15:38.159 --> 01:15:41.399 lot of times, I think rule zero is about establishing a community that plays 1061 01:15:41.399 --> 01:15:44.399 together again and again not just strangers, but you can do it with strangers 1062 01:15:44.439 --> 01:15:46.039 too. And also, now, as you said, even after rule zero, 1063 01:15:46.359 --> 01:15:48.439 when you find that you're not all on the same page, you can 1064 01:15:48.479 --> 01:15:53.439 adjust and that's important too. But I just like, I think it is 1065 01:15:53.479 --> 01:15:57.199 such a great idea for any kind of community, like any kind of gathering. 1066 01:15:57.239 --> 01:15:59.680 You know, hey, we're going on a hike. Okay, does 1067 01:15:59.720 --> 01:16:01.319 that mean that we're gonna hike for like two hours and then drink a bunch 1068 01:16:01.359 --> 01:16:03.680 of beers or does it mean that we're like gonna go for eight hours? 1069 01:16:03.720 --> 01:16:06.960 You know, what's what's the idea here? You know, we're going to 1070 01:16:06.960 --> 01:16:11.039 the rainfair. I can deal with an hour, like two hours of that's 1071 01:16:11.039 --> 01:16:14.159 so whis can people five hours that have the rules zero conversation? It's just 1072 01:16:14.199 --> 01:16:16.000 such a great concept. So, and we're gonna kind of build off of 1073 01:16:16.000 --> 01:16:18.399 what Will was just saying. They are about community and stuff, and who 1074 01:16:18.399 --> 01:16:23.119 work at NIL is doing in our members only section, but for people who 1075 01:16:23.119 --> 01:16:27.399 aren't members and want to just learn more about the two of you, Nils 1076 01:16:27.399 --> 01:16:30.079 starting with you. Where else can people find your content? Yes, I'm 1077 01:16:30.159 --> 01:16:32.399 on Twitch, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok. You can find me on all 1078 01:16:32.479 --> 01:16:38.800 those at Nile Jones Rivers. I post a lot of different kind of magic 1079 01:16:38.880 --> 01:16:42.279 stuff. I post comp stuff, I post DH stuff. I'm all over 1080 01:16:42.319 --> 01:16:45.000 the place. I play it all, I love it all. It's all. 1081 01:16:45.000 --> 01:16:47.520 It's all really really really queer. And for those who are magic people, 1082 01:16:47.520 --> 01:16:50.439 you will be at Magic on Vegas. I'm correct, I'll be a 1083 01:16:50.560 --> 01:16:55.159 Magic on Vegas. I'll also be a Commander's Sealed this weekend. I fly 1084 01:16:55.199 --> 01:16:59.359 out in the morning. For anyone, I mean, this will be I'm 1085 01:16:59.399 --> 01:17:03.760 sure you know it'll be long gone since Latimus comes out. But yeah, 1086 01:17:03.800 --> 01:17:06.880 I'll be at Commander Sealed, I'll be a Vegas and I will be at 1087 01:17:08.479 --> 01:17:13.079 dream Ac Atlanta in December. Awesome, awesome, tod and will Where can 1088 01:17:13.119 --> 01:17:15.560 people get hyped up about comics, especially in a time when a lot of 1089 01:17:15.640 --> 01:17:18.239 us are not watching comic book movies and TV shows but want to go back 1090 01:17:18.239 --> 01:17:21.680 to the original source. Where can they go? Yeah? So I have 1091 01:17:21.720 --> 01:17:26.079 a podcast as well, it's called Type's my superpower. Me and my best 1092 01:17:26.119 --> 01:17:30.399 buddy, Steve, who actually taught me magic back in ninety four. Have 1093 01:17:30.880 --> 01:17:36.000 we talk about Marvel comics. He's reading all every single Mutant comic that's come 1094 01:17:36.000 --> 01:17:39.960 out. I'm reading all of the current comics that are coming out, and 1095 01:17:40.079 --> 01:17:42.359 we just talked. We talked about it together and it's a lot of fun. 1096 01:17:43.239 --> 01:17:47.279 Outside of that, I'm on Twitch, Twitter, Instagram to talk other 1097 01:17:47.359 --> 01:17:51.920 places probably, Oh, I have silver Dreamer dot com so as Silver Dreamer 1098 01:17:53.680 --> 01:17:58.479 Silver with a why if you are interested in anime, Marvel, Lego, 1099 01:17:59.359 --> 01:18:05.720 Random Bees, and especially Marvel, come and find me. Let's be friends. 1100 01:18:06.279 --> 01:18:11.239 Well, and this is actually given me a great new idea because Will 1101 01:18:11.319 --> 01:18:15.199 and Steve have both been frequent guests on both of my podcasts, and I've 1102 01:18:15.199 --> 01:18:17.800 had so much fun. They're nice enough talk about Rules zero to let me 1103 01:18:17.840 --> 01:18:20.520 talk with them about comics, even though I don't read comics. I just 1104 01:18:20.600 --> 01:18:25.880 my brain doesn't work that way. But we should have an episode about what 1105 01:18:25.920 --> 01:18:30.279 would a rule zero conversation look like for the X Men, for the Avengers, 1106 01:18:30.720 --> 01:18:32.800 for the Fantastic Four, Like, what you know all these different comic 1107 01:18:32.840 --> 01:18:36.359 groups, what should their rule zero conversation be because Steve I knows, also 1108 01:18:36.439 --> 01:18:40.159 wanted to be on this and he couldn't, so that that's an episode you've 1109 01:18:40.159 --> 01:18:45.439 just volunteered for. Congratulations, Okay, well and everybody else, they said, 1110 01:18:45.439 --> 01:18:46.720 members are gonna having more content a second, but everyone else if you 1111 01:18:46.720 --> 01:18:48.640 want to, If it's your first time listening to this, you can find 1112 01:18:48.680 --> 01:18:53.000 more about my podcasts at the Ethical Panda dot com. That's where you can 1113 01:18:53.000 --> 01:18:55.760 find all the ways to give us feedback. I'm on Twitter, I'm on 1114 01:18:55.800 --> 01:18:59.279 TikTok. I will eventually be on some non Twitter thing. As I said, 1115 01:18:59.279 --> 01:19:01.359 I will jump off the ship when everyone agrees what is the ship we're 1116 01:19:01.359 --> 01:19:04.720 all jumping off to. I just I have a blue Sky account, I 1117 01:19:04.760 --> 01:19:08.520 have a Vine account or whatever it's called. I just can't monitor all of 1118 01:19:08.520 --> 01:19:12.439 them, but definitely do check all those out. It's a great way to 1119 01:19:12.479 --> 01:19:14.399 give us feedback. It's a great way to share the show with others. 1120 01:19:14.439 --> 01:19:16.000 And in the show notes you also find all the links to that, as 1121 01:19:16.159 --> 01:19:19.399 was all the links to my two awesome creators who are with me today. 1122 01:19:19.600 --> 01:19:24.199 You'll also find ways to become a member of this podcast from the five dollars 1123 01:19:24.199 --> 01:19:27.520 a month you get ad free content, you get bonus content, and you 1124 01:19:27.560 --> 01:19:30.399 get to support this podcast. And one of the things that I'm doing right 1125 01:19:30.399 --> 01:19:33.279 now is that during the strike, twenty five percent of all the money that 1126 01:19:33.319 --> 01:19:36.960 I get in from that I'm donating to the Strike Fund. This is a 1127 01:19:36.960 --> 01:19:41.199 great fund that's working to help all the people who are affected by the Hollywood 1128 01:19:41.239 --> 01:19:44.920 strike, both the writers and the actors themselves, but also you know, 1129 01:19:44.960 --> 01:19:49.159 the caterers, the hairstylists, the people who you know, the security people, 1130 01:19:49.600 --> 01:19:54.439 all the folks who are also out of a job because they're not working 1131 01:19:54.439 --> 01:19:57.359 on the sets where these people are on strike. So it's a great time 1132 01:19:57.359 --> 01:19:59.760 to become a member. And the last thing I'll promote, and granted you 1133 01:19:59.840 --> 01:20:01.319 only to hear this about two days in advance, but hopefully it will work. 1134 01:20:02.079 --> 01:20:06.000 If you're going to Magic on Vegas and you're getting there Thursday, you're 1135 01:20:06.039 --> 01:20:10.279 looking for something to do Thursday night. On Thursday night, I'm running a 1136 01:20:10.399 --> 01:20:14.960 charity function called Charity the Gathering Vegas. If you go to our website Charity 1137 01:20:15.000 --> 01:20:16.199 the Gathering dot com, you'll find out all the information, or you can 1138 01:20:16.239 --> 01:20:20.119 find us on Twitter at under Charity the Gathering. UH. It's an event 1139 01:20:20.159 --> 01:20:25.920 to benefit trans Lifeline, and we're doing this. This is a third event 1140 01:20:26.159 --> 01:20:29.399 we're doing. We're gonna do a number of these events going forward, all 1141 01:20:29.439 --> 01:20:32.760 to benefit queer and related causes because something's really important to me and really important 1142 01:20:32.800 --> 01:20:39.239 to so much of the magic community is trans causes and queer causes. And 1143 01:20:39.880 --> 01:20:43.479 we have commander pods. We're gonna have limited pods. We're going to have 1144 01:20:43.720 --> 01:20:45.880 a number of creators are going to be there doing like, hey, jump 1145 01:20:45.920 --> 01:20:49.399 into this pod with this person, or jump into a commander draft with this 1146 01:20:49.439 --> 01:20:51.920 person. So it's gonna be a lot of fun. If you're free on 1147 01:20:51.960 --> 01:20:56.600 Thursday night, go to charity the Gathering dot com dot org, check all 1148 01:20:56.640 --> 01:20:59.399 the information out and it'll be right there. Hopefully you can join us Thursday 1149 01:20:59.479 --> 01:21:02.039 night, so on behalf of myself will nil. Thank you all so much 1150 01:21:02.079 --> 01:21:05.640 for listening. We have spoken. What are you