WEBVTT

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And we are live. Hello everyone
out there in Twitter, which I refuse

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to call X, Facebook and Rumble
the only places I'm allowed to actually talk

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really, because YouTube reminds me on
a very fairly constant basis that I'm not

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supposed to do things there. I'm
to here with today today with the Occult

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rejects Lisa and Nick, and our
special guest today is doctor Rick Richard Spence,

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the author of Secret Agent sixty six
six Alistair Crowley, British Intelligence and

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I forgot the last part of the
in the occult Yes India Cult. So

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doctor Spence or Rick, tell us
little bit about yourself, what your background

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is. I know the book was
out in twenty two thousand and eight.

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I'm not sure if there's any been
any updates or anything like that, but

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just give us a little story.
What you do, how you came about

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this wire while you were interested in
it and stuff like that. Okay,

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who am I? Why should you
pay any attention to anything that I say?

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As well as I was saying before
we went live For anybody who's wondering,

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I am a genuine academic, so
I actually have a real degree from

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a real university, and I need
to point that out, because there are

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unreal degrees from unreal universities. So
what am I taught at the University of

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Idaho here in beautiful Moscow, Idaho, or I am now and it's springlike

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weather for the time being. Beginning
in nineteen eighty six, so I taught

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for thirty four years. I retired
in twenty twenty, which seemed to be

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an opportune time. Since retirement,
I've been involving myself in various writing and

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other projects. And we might talk
more about those, or we don't.

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That's not a big deal in and
of itself. And prior to that,

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what was my academic background? I
got my master's and PhD, the thing

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that really counts from the University of
California at Santa Barbara, which is not

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the University of California surfing branch,
as people point out there at that in

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nineteen eighty one, most of my
real sort of you know, the academic

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I started out really as interested in
modern Russian history. So academically that's kind

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of my thing. But what do
you find out, especially, you know,

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if you're curious, if you have
any kind of imagination, which a

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lot of people in academia don't ranklickly. You find that one thing leads you

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to another. I mean, people
ask me, how did you get interested

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in Crowley or how did you get
interested in secret societies or occultism and the

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rest of this, And I did, just didn't wake up one morning and

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I was interested in it. It
was because I had been interested in something

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else, and through one thing I
was led to another. Think of it

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as the process of enlightenment or disenlightenmented, or however you want to see that.

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So when you deal with modern Russian
history, you deal with the Russian

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Revolution. And if you deal with
the Russian Revolution, you deal with what

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else. You don't have revolutions without
conspiracies and secrecy, secret societies, which

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revolutionary movements are. And so that's
where. And also espionage was something else

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that I'm you know, I'm always
kind of hunting spies in one form or

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another. And my wife accuses me
that I now think everyone is a spy,

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which is not true almost everyone,
but not entirely. So you get

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interested in espionage, and then you
find out the links between espionage and occultism.

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This this kind of symbiotic relationship between
the two and various other let's say,

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clandestine organizations, all those things that
exist in the dark, the historical

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dark, the shadows of history.
So I would say that that kind of

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turned my interests away from what might
be sort of standard political, diplomatic,

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or economic history, although I'm interested
in all of those two. The kind

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of shadow areas of history, or
literally the history that isn't written about,

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the stuff that gets left out usually
because it's inconvenient or inconclusive, it raises

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more. You know, we like
to have our stories come together, that's

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the whole thing. So one of
the things that as an historian that struck

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me is that you hear this whole
thing about, you know, story history

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being something which is it's written by
the victors, which it absolutely is.

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So you never get the whole story
that there's no giant book somewhere in which

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you know, there's a giant black
book somewhere they you know, in a

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giant underground library that records everything that
ever happened. Sounds like that that this

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is some of the ways that the
people think what historians do. The historians

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just read from the book. We
pull up the book and we just read,

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We just spense knowledge from it.
Now there isn't any book. What

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historians do is they make up history. That is, they try to come

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up with a narrative to explain what
happened, because really we don't have a

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lot in the way of definite facts
about things. So I'll give you an

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example. Everybody, I think can
agree another maybe a few who don't,

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but I think pretty much everyone can
agree that World War II, something that

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we describe as the Second World War
happened. Now we can quibble about the

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beginning thirty seven or thirty nine or
where it was. That kind of varies,

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you know, from one country to
another. But the Second World War

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happened. And by the way,
by calling at the Second World War,

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we're also acknowledging that a First World
War happened. But that's another story.

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So world War two happened. That's
a fact. And then you can come

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up with other ones. You can
come up with, you know, the

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rough number of people killed, the
number of times. You know, you

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can you can come up with a
kind of mathematical list of things that are

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connected with that. You can find
Kievan. There was a Battle of Stalingrad.

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There was a Battle of Guadalcanal that
took place between such and such a

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time. But when you get to
the key question, the really important question

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of why World War two happened,
Well, that's not a fact. There

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are no facts about that. There
are only opinions. So most of what

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we regard as an historical narrative is
a story, a kind of script,

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which has been composed to incorporate and
explain the facts that we have. So

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we had this war, here is
why it happened, and so you're now

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creating a story around that. Now
that story could be very very accurate,

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it may be correct, or it
could be wildly off base. But whatever

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the case, what you'll generally find
is if you take any particular kind of

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historical event, whether it's World War
two, the Russian Revolution, American Revolution,

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or whatever, you can take the
known facts such as they are,

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and you can create different narratives to
explain them. That is, you can

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embed them in a matrix of a
different story, so you can make it

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come out different ways. And the
thing is that if you do it well,

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they're all more or less plausible.
So then you're left with the question

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is that, well, since I
can come up with different explanations for this,

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which one is correct some Again,
maybe entirely correct. Usually you'll find

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that some are probably more accurate than
others, but none are completely accurate because

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we can't go back and explain the
past. You can't do that. Yeah,

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it's because nobody ever understood what was
happening at the time. So again,

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an example, you've probably been in
a situation, or you may have

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been somewhere and other people, your
friends may have been there, and you

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both think that you're sort of looking
at the same thing. You think that

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you've experienced the same event, but
between yourselves or if you're you know,

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questioned by the police, for instance, there would be variations in your experience,

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so it would turn out that you
didn't exactly experience the same thing.

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Now, that doesn't mean that one
of your experiences really is real and everyone

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else is is false. It just
means that you're sort of in your own

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sort of reality. In this case, I think maybe one of the best

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way was ever put to me was
by one of my freshlers has said,

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is that really you only get half
of history at best, because what people

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see, what we all see,
is what's in front of us, and

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that can be the same time,
there's a whole other half of the world

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which is happening behind us and we're
not looking at it. So two people

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in the same place, at the
same time, at the same event,

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facing in two different directions will not
have the same experience. One isn't more

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true than the other one. They're
just different in that case. So that's

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one of the things I think you
have to understand. And to me,

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this actually, you know, it
doesn't ruin history. It makes it more

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interesting. It's it's fluid, it's
it's malleable. It's this thing which is

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kind of constantly changing because we never
have the real thing to begin with.

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It's always sort of inventing and reinventing
itself over and over again. We don't

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know what happened, but we always
have to search to figure out hopefully what

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did. That's interesting too, because
it's like the depth of the of the

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experience based on what you know as
far as the backstory, will give you

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a different impression of what you're seeing
when the event actually occurs too. So

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if you're just on the surface level, you're going to see whatever is presented

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to you, and that's going to
be based on your own perception, your

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own ability to comprehend what's happening.
But if you had a deeper you know,

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like an in for instance, with
your book, if you knew the

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inner workings of Crowley and his you
know, his persona of being this Irish

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rebel, basically, you might understand
why he was doing something a little bit

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differently when it happened, like say
the event at the the you know,

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the Statue of Liberty, rather than
the onlooker who doesn't know who he is

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at all and just sees the experience, you know, Like that's I mean

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to take that one answer the thing
about crole. So this is World War

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one, New York. It's nineteen
fifty and Croley has come over to respends

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the war, and he sets up
this whole. It's it's kind of a

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performance art and that's one of the
ways. You know, Croley is kind

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of a performance artist. And so
he gets together his entourage. You know,

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he's got his girlfriend who plays the
fiddle, Isla Waddell, and then

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he collects the drugs and and there's
also a New York Times reporter. That's

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the key thing. He makes sure
that the press is there to cover it,

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which means there's nothing which is unplioned
about what's happening. This is stunted,

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and they all go out and he
proclaims he declares war in the British

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Empire. And he pulls out what's
supposed to be his British passport and he

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rips it up, and he goes
into some sort of you know, esoteric

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gobbledy goop about you know, Ireland
being connected to Atlantis and which goes over

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the head of the New York Time
reporter. But this this, and it

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gets in and it gets in the
news, and he said, now,

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the thing about Crowley, though,
so you've seen this event. Simple fact

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is he's not Irish in any way, shape or form. In fact,

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I don't think he ever set foot
in Ireland. And his entire life could

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be wrong, but it was.
He just stepped in and stepped out.

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He's not Irish. None of the
actual Phoenians in New York have anything to

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do with him. They don't know
who this guy is. He's not part

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of any recognized Irish nationalist organization.
The only people he's convinced to some degree

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that he's an Irish nationalist are the
Germans in New York. He tends to

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think that the representatives of the Imperial
German government and German Americans, you know,

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the Kaiser's crowd. They fall for
this. The Irish never do.

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And and and he's not tearing up
his his passport. He's tearing up an

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envelope. His actual British passport is
safe back in a drawer at home.

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And it's a stunt. And it
was a stunt meant to get in the

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press and to impress the people he
wanted to impress, who were the Germans

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in New York, because he is
selling himself to them as at the most

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a British renegade or an Irish patriot
who is willing to then help the German

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cause. And he has to sell
that to them, and he has to

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sell it because he's actually working for
the British Empire. Now, this was

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one of those things that in his
lifetime Crowley would periodically claim, and he

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was usually in some time of duress. You know, he often felt unappreciated,

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don't we all? And that's the
main complaint I think good ever have,

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is that people just don't appreciate all
the things that I've done. They

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don't appreciate me, well, he'd
argue, know, and particularly when people

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would condemn him for being the wickedest
man in the world and a renegade and

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trade. I mean, that reputation
as a trader stuck with him and he

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never shook it off. And as
time went on, because he knew he

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wasn't one, but he couldn't explain
exactly why he wasn't one because of the

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Official Secrets Act, he would say
that you no, no, really,

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when I was in New York,
I was working for the British cause I

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was really working undercover, and nobody
really seems to have believed that, I

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mean, even his friends never quite
believed it. So I was actually,

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here's the case. I was doing
research on another person who was also involved

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in espionage with some connections to the
British during the same period, and I

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wondered, you know, I wonder
if this kind and Crowley ever had it

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the connection with each other. So
I sent off to the National Archives of

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Washington, DC to see whether or
not in the files of this now agency

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that no longer exists called the Military
Intelligence Division, whether they had any whether

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there was a file I'm crawling so
was that the name of it before they

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became m I five and m I
six? Was it the US government wasn't

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see what it was. In World
War One, the fbis we know today

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really didn't exist. There was a
Bureau of Investigation, but it wasn't terribly

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important, and there was there was
no sort of national security apparatus. So

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during World War One, the US
Army stepped in and you had the m

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i D, which then actually was
the group that was going around investigating everyone.

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Okay, they were investigating pro Germans, anybody they thought were Bolsheviks,

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you know, if they thought anyway
you were suspect and your loyalty to the

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US, they were, And they
created a huge card file. Long before

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at Jaggar Hoover did that, the
m i D had done it. And

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the interesting thing about the m i
D files is that because that agency as

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such is extinct, all of its
files are declassified and you can you can

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look through them so that they're all
open, which is usually not something you

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run into with intelligence files. So
I got this little file that that that

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came back to me, and they
did have something on Crawley and I'm reading

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through it and most of it's not
particularly interesting, but there was, and

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I actually have it right here.
So the I get my glasses to read

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this because I want to read it
correctly. So I'm running through this whole

205
00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:55.720
thing, and there's really in this
whole not very long file, there's just

206
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one paragraph. This is this is
this is what research is actually like.

207
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You read through hundreds of pages until
you come across the one paragraph, hopefully

208
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well that we'll actually have something useful
in it. So it's this guy,

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00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:14.279
the guy that's reporting as an mid
local officer, who's actually you know,

210
00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:17.359
Crowley has been sort of hanging around
at his neck of the wood up around

211
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in the Hudson River valley. And
they know that Crowley had written for these

212
00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:26.839
pro German magazines prior to this.
Now, the US is already this is

213
00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:30.799
nineteen eighteen, the United States is
in the war. So you know,

214
00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:37.000
anybody British or otherwise who's considered to
have written for a pro German magazine is

215
00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:42.799
suspect. So they're thinking about arresting
it. And they make an inquiry to

216
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the British consulate in New York.
And here's the key element of this.

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00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:57.359
Let's see what we have here.
Let's see it was determined that Alistair Crowley

218
00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:03.960
was an employee of the British government
at present in this country an official business

219
00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:12.200
of which the British Consul New York
has full cognizance. Now, the importance

220
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:17.039
of that, which is really more
like a sentence than a paragraph, is

221
00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:19.160
that it meant. This is what
jumped out to me that what Croley had

222
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:26.680
been saying about working for the British
government wasn't bullshit, that was he was.

223
00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:32.759
So what is stated here, what
the British Consul stated was that he

224
00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:37.240
is an employee of His Majesty's government
and we know what he's doing and basically

225
00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:42.839
layoff, let him continue doing his
thing. Now that's interesting because it then

226
00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:48.000
shit, it takes all of Krohley's
comments and it puts them in a different

227
00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:52.440
perspective. But of course what it
doesn't tell you. What doesn't it tell

228
00:18:52.480 --> 00:19:00.839
you what? What is he employed
doing? What's his job? Well,

229
00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:04.359
there are only so many possibilities for
that. He's not involved in anything economic,

230
00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:08.640
he's not there in the war mission, he's not part of any official

231
00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:15.240
British agency. And I've done enough
research in that area that I've looked through

232
00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:18.759
the personnel list of every single British
agency and Alister Crowley's nowhere to be found

233
00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:22.839
on it. So what is he
doing? What's he doing that the consul

234
00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:26.200
would basically acknowledge that he's there,
But then we're not going to tell you

235
00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:30.440
what is going on. And that's
because he is involved in clandestine work,

236
00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:34.319
he is involved in intelligence works.
He was doing exactly what it was he

237
00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:40.640
said he was doing. So that
then began this process of trying to figure

238
00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:45.240
out what that could be. So
it's it's one of these things that comes

239
00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:48.920
in into you know, I said
before that I was very interested in spy

240
00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:53.759
hunting. I suspect a lot of
people being about spies, well, very

241
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:57.240
rarely. You know, is it
going to be obvious? It's never supposed

242
00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:02.000
to be obvious, or you know, you're not doing your job. So

243
00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:06.559
what do you have to look for
is you have to look for a sort

244
00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:12.200
of pattern of associations. Who do
these people know, who do they come

245
00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:18.640
in contact with, what sort of
things are they doing? And so in

246
00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:26.000
Crowley's case, you notice that he
is the most obvious. Thing he did

247
00:20:26.119 --> 00:20:30.720
was that he infiltrated the German propaganda
apparatus in New York. And the reason

248
00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:36.160
why that was important when he first
arrived. So Crowley arrives in New York.

249
00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:42.079
I always loved this part. He
arrived in New York on Halloween aboard

250
00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:49.279
the Lusitania. The Lusitania is still
going to be around for a few months,

251
00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:52.480
but it is a doomed ship.
Okay, this this ship is going

252
00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:56.240
to be sunk by the Germans some
months down the road. But he shows

253
00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:00.599
up, you know, on October
the thirty first. Now that's one of

254
00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:03.359
those things that I think, you
know, the same goes. Sometimes a

255
00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:07.960
cigar is just a cigar. So
you know, the Canard Line had a

256
00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:11.200
certain schedule and the Lusitania was going
to arrive on the thirty first, and

257
00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:15.799
that's about it. I don't think
Aleister Curley arranged that way. It just

258
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:18.880
happened. I mean, maybe the
universe arranged it that way, but he

259
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:26.039
didn't. So he shows up in
nineteen fourteen and from that time up through

260
00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:30.319
the middle of nineteen seventeen. This
is one of these little historical details A

261
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:33.319
lot of Americans missed. The World
War One was on, but the United

262
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:38.759
States was neutral, so the US
doesn't join the war until it's been going

263
00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:42.720
on for a better part of three
years, and only in the latter part

264
00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:48.359
of it. So the United States
is a neutral country in fourteen fifteen sixty

265
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:53.319
even through the early part of nineteen
seventeen, and therefore German diplomats and agents

266
00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:59.359
and British diplomats and agents are all
sort of free to operate within the country

267
00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:03.039
and scheme against each other, which
they're doing. There is this kind of

268
00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:07.160
secret war which is going on between
British and German agents, and then of

269
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:11.680
course you got Russian and French agents
thrown into that as well. So what

270
00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:17.759
Crow has done is that he creates
this backstory about himself as being a renegade

271
00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:21.119
or as being an Irish rebel,
because he has to come up with some

272
00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:26.160
reason as to why he would be
willing to essentially betray his country. And

273
00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:34.480
he is able to convince certain people
in the German propaganda apparatus which is trying

274
00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:44.720
to sway American opinion towards Germany.
And you know, even he will remark

275
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:48.000
that they seem to be incredibly gullible, and I have to admit, they

276
00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:52.279
never seem to ask the right questions. They take him at face value and

277
00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:57.839
they're completely bamboozled by And he then
uses that means not only to figure out

278
00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:02.559
what the Germans are doing, doing
propaganda wise, because he's setting at their

279
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:04.519
private meetings where they're talking about where
their next move is going to be.

280
00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:14.079
But he also makes suggestions to them. He argues that you might do things,

281
00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:18.960
which brings us back for a moment
to that whole question about that doomed

282
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:27.000
ocean liner, the Lusitania. So
in May nineteen fifteen, the Lusitania is

283
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:33.000
a British liner, but it is
torpedoed and sunk off the coast of Ireland

284
00:23:33.079 --> 00:23:37.319
by a German U boat. And
you know that's that's always kind of a

285
00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:41.799
problem because you've just sunk a liner
with a lot of passengers on it and

286
00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:45.480
including something like one hundred and twenty
eight Americans go down with the ship.

287
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:48.960
Now there's more than a thousand people
to do, but there are Americans who

288
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:55.039
are killed. Now. The interesting
thing is is that the British, the

289
00:23:55.079 --> 00:24:02.160
British Admiralty, which by the way, is the actual agency that Crowley works

290
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:06.799
for. Okay, so Crowley is
in this period of league is not employed

291
00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:12.160
by what will become six or five. He's employed by another intelligence agency,

292
00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:19.079
which is the Admiralty's Naval Intelligence Division, the NID. See some of these

293
00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:22.680
things that gets complicated, and you
you can kind of get lost in the

294
00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:26.599
shuffle. Is that most countries have
more than one intelligence agency. So we've

295
00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:29.559
got the CIA, there's the FBI, there's the NSA. There are a

296
00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:34.359
couple of others who've never heard of. But it's a house of many rooms.

297
00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:38.839
That's the way to think about it. Any kind of intelligence apparatus is

298
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:45.920
a house of many rooms. So
the Admiralty had been using the Lusitania to

299
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:52.400
carry war supplies. So it's carrying
passengers in the cabins below, in its

300
00:24:52.440 --> 00:25:03.039
cargo hole, it's carrying gun cotton
and unassembled shells. That means legally it's

301
00:25:03.079 --> 00:25:07.839
a target. So if you take
an ocean liner and you put contraband on

302
00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:12.079
it, and then it can be
and this actually is you know of these

303
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:17.240
things less. There's actually an American
inquiry into the Lusitania, and that's what

304
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:22.240
they determine is that it was carrying
contraband supplies. So as nasty as it

305
00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:30.119
was, the Germans were technically legally
correcting what they did. It was fair

306
00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:36.839
game. Now Crowley claims that it
that the meetings of the German Propaganta Cabinet,

307
00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:41.039
the question came up about well you
know what would be a big deal.

308
00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:45.799
You know, the Lusitania was sort
of the pride of the British liner

309
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:48.839
fleet, and so sinking it would
be have some sort of propaganda value.

310
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:53.559
And we know that they're carrying war
supplies and it, so we have a

311
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:56.920
reason to do it. But can
we? But then the question came,

312
00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:00.400
how would they How would the American
react to this, because you know,

313
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:07.640
we don't want to piss them off? And Crowley said, look, Americans

314
00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:12.240
are like children. They have no
actual experience in the rough and tumble of

315
00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:18.039
great power politics, which practically speaking, in nineteen seventeen we didn't how quickly

316
00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:22.880
we learn, we didn't know that
much about it. And he goes,

317
00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:25.880
Americans are like children. So what
you have to do, if you have

318
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:30.319
to treat them firmly, what you
want to do is scare the be Jesus

319
00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:33.400
out of them. You want to
show that the Germany is tough and determined,

320
00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:37.920
it will stop it nothing. So
if there's an ocean liner full of

321
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:42.119
passengers and has got war supplies on
it, it'll be sunk, and he

322
00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:47.559
goes, that will send the message
you want to to the Americans. It

323
00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:51.160
will send the message that Germany is
frightening and too tough to it, and

324
00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:55.039
he goes, that's what you want
to do. Now, that's what he

325
00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:57.440
claimed he did. I wasn't there. I don't know whether he did it,

326
00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:06.920
but it kind of fits because that
that did happen. Someone sold to

327
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:11.039
Berlin on that idea, But of
course it had the opposite effect. It

328
00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:15.799
outraged people, It almost brought the
US into the war two years early.

329
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:23.200
And the main thing it did is
that it completely poisoned American German relations.

330
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:29.480
So from that point on, in
much of the American press, to much

331
00:27:29.480 --> 00:27:33.559
of the American public, the Germans
became the bad guys, and so Crawley

332
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:37.799
the boast. This was one of
his great success just sell an idea to

333
00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:45.759
people on one basis when you're actually
hoping that for have the opposite effect.

334
00:27:47.960 --> 00:27:52.680
So there are other things that came
along. Most one of the things that's

335
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:56.480
not in the book. So one
of the things the questioning is that whether

336
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:02.039
any updates. I may, at
some point in the new Ark future do

337
00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:03.640
another edition of the book. There
are things I can add to it.

338
00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:07.680
I don't think there's any huge amount
of stuff I could add to it.

339
00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:11.680
But one of the things I could
add is that if you go some years

340
00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:15.680
on, if we go up to
nineteen thirty nine, if we go up

341
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:22.599
to the eve of the next war, World War two, there's a thing

342
00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:27.400
called a kind of it's basically a
census, but it was called a survey

343
00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:33.839
of the British population, and it
was an accounting of people in Britain.

344
00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:37.240
But one of the things that included, you know, the same sort of

345
00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:42.359
stuff, their name, their address, their occupation. But then off sort

346
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:47.480
of to the right hand side of
the column, almost always in a blue

347
00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:52.519
pencil, the annotator would go along
and they would note what sort of past

348
00:28:52.799 --> 00:29:00.599
military experience or association these people add. And it's interesting because what it tells

349
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:03.319
you is that they're already expecting there's
going to be a war, and what

350
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:06.440
we want to do is to figure
out who might be useful in that war,

351
00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:11.200
who has the skills or experience that
we might use. So we find

352
00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:18.079
Crowley under by the way, his
real name, which is Edward Alexander Crowley.

353
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:22.400
And that's the point I want to
come back to, because it's also

354
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:26.079
missed. But you find him under
this, and it's got his address.

355
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:30.839
I think it actually gives his This
is nineteen thirty nine, and he gives

356
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:37.720
his profession as psychoanalyst, which he
claimed to be on various occasions. Your

357
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:47.720
flood over there in blue pencil,
it's written in Emergency List NID. So

358
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:56.640
NID remember stands for Naval Intelligence Division. Emergency list was a list of former

359
00:29:56.799 --> 00:30:03.319
naval personnel people with past experience who
could be called up for emergency service in

360
00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:07.400
wartime. So it's kind of an
auxiliary list of people you would have.

361
00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:14.440
But the important thing here is that
Crowley's on it. He's on the and

362
00:30:14.599 --> 00:30:17.559
I so that that's one of those
things. To me, that's another confirmation

363
00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:22.079
that he's working, he's always been
working for the NID, and that he's

364
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:30.200
on their emergency list, even twenty
years on from the war. The other

365
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:33.839
thing which is intriguing about being on
the emergency list is that, so far

366
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:37.160
as I can tell, in every
other case I can find, and I've

367
00:30:37.160 --> 00:30:41.400
only looked at a certain number of
people to be on that you were generally

368
00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:47.000
a naval officer of some kind,
you had a commission. I've never seen

369
00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:52.359
any other evidence. I've never even
seen Croley claim that he held the commission.

370
00:30:53.119 --> 00:31:00.319
But this is a suggestion that he
may have and it comes back to

371
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:04.440
this thing of his real name.
So again, is his name, the

372
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:11.160
only legal name he ever possessed,
he never changes. It is Edward Alexander

373
00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:19.319
Crowley, which means that there are
always two people in one person. So

374
00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:26.119
here's an interesting way to think about
it. Alistair Crowley, the version of

375
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:30.920
Alexander. See what he does is
he sort of stylizes his middle name because

376
00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:33.680
he's you know, he doesn't want
to be Eddie Junior, which is interesting

377
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:38.400
because among his family and close friends, he was always known as Eddie.

378
00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:42.279
So I want you to think of
that the next time you see a picture

379
00:31:42.279 --> 00:31:52.160
of Alistair Crowley and to say Eddie
Eddie. Do you ever wonder if that's

380
00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:56.279
like because I have questioned this,
like and I think that these people take

381
00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:00.759
on like some stage persona yeah,
character name, But like, now,

382
00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:06.400
if Alosa Croley is dead, does
that mean that Edward Crowley is alive?

383
00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:12.000
I mean, did both of them
die in December nineteen forty seven, or

384
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:15.079
well, is it just a character
that's on the stage. It's now done

385
00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:16.799
and dead, but the person still
lives on. I mean, you just

386
00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:20.880
gotta stop wearing ritual clothes and just
go by a different name and nobody would

387
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:23.960
know who the hell you are.
You know, anything is possible. I

388
00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:28.759
mean, in all probably he seems
you know, I say he was dead

389
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:30.440
when they said he was dead.
I've just wondered that about all the people

390
00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:36.160
too. Yeah, but it could, It could be employed by other people,

391
00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:40.640
and it has been employed before.
Yeah. So you know, you

392
00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:44.440
got to be certain about things that
it comes down to, like facts,

393
00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:49.400
and the facts is you actually see
the dead body? All right? If

394
00:32:49.400 --> 00:32:52.640
somebody just tells you that someone is
dead, remember, it's hearsay, like

395
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:59.519
Asama bin Laden, it's hearsay.
Nobody, well you know they told me.

396
00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:02.000
See this comes back to this point. The reason why most of us

397
00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:07.079
believe things is because somebody told us
they were true, correct, and we

398
00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:09.240
just repeat whatever it was that we
were told. We seldom ever think about

399
00:33:09.319 --> 00:33:14.000
and most people never do. They
just heard the story. But the reason

400
00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:17.400
why you think this is because someone
told you that, not because you have

401
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:25.079
any experience with it yourself. So
Crowley sort of began to craft this alistair

402
00:33:25.160 --> 00:33:31.599
identity as a teenager, and then
later through most of his public professional life,

403
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:38.119
he becomes the occultist Alistair Crowley.
It is exactly as you suggested,

404
00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:45.480
Nick, it's a stage name,
it's a persona he's created, but he's

405
00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:51.960
always running parallel to that, existing
simultaneously every moment of the day is Edward

406
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:58.119
Alexander Crowley. And so the question
is are they always doing exactly the same

407
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:06.160
thing. I mean, the checks
come to Edward, to Alistair whenever you

408
00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:09.719
would get them, and it you
know, at one point it occurred to

409
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:14.519
me is that I've been trying to, you know, try to find documentation.

410
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:21.159
And an interesting case that I actually
relate in the book is that m

411
00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:25.199
I five is the British Internal Security
Agency, so they're like our FBI.

412
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:30.840
They they're not a spy agency,
they're a counter spy agency, so they're

413
00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:37.159
always sniffing around what people are doing. So I wrote to m I five

414
00:34:37.480 --> 00:34:39.599
you can do that, and I
said, do you have any files on

415
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:43.239
Alistair Crowley? Okay, I'm looking, you know, and you have to

416
00:34:43.239 --> 00:34:45.440
give the whole sort of you know, it's like they don't know who he

417
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:46.199
is, so you have to tell
them, oh, yeah, he was

418
00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:52.119
alive from this period. And I
got back a reply going, oh,

419
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:55.480
you know, it turns out that
we don't, you know, we might

420
00:34:55.519 --> 00:34:59.639
have had some, but they were
The excuse you generally get is that other

421
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:02.239
were files of the past. But
yeah, we threw them away or they

422
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:06.480
were too old. Nobody wouldn want
to over look at these things, so

423
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:12.760
we burned them. Okay, that's
not why you burn files. Okay,

424
00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:15.960
you don't destroy files because you think
they're useless. You destroy files because you

425
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:24.159
think they're possibly compromising. So now
the odd thing was I going through other

426
00:35:24.760 --> 00:35:31.480
files, I found cross references the
files on Crowley. I found not one.

427
00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:37.960
I found two, two files with
two different numbers, both relating to

428
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:42.639
Alistair Crowley. So I thought I
would be a smart ass about it and

429
00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:45.360
I wrote back to them. I
said, oh, you know, I

430
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:49.400
found these two references to these two
files, and you know, maybe you

431
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:53.960
could look again. Got back another
polite letter which basically said that, oh,

432
00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:57.519
first of all, it said,
thank you for bringing this to our

433
00:35:57.559 --> 00:36:01.239
attention, thank you for telling us
that we had these files on Crowley,

434
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:07.000
and we've gone back and checked,
and you know we did, but they

435
00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:12.519
all got destroyed. We can't locate
them anymore. So here, again,

436
00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:16.079
is a typical thing you'll find in
dealing with intelligence agencies. If you're trying

437
00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:21.480
to get information, the first answer
will be we don't have anything. If

438
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:23.000
you then can show any evidence that
they did, it will then be like,

439
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:25.400
oh, yeah, we did,
but we don't have that anymore.

440
00:36:27.559 --> 00:36:32.440
So that's what's happening. How am
I going to know that? So,

441
00:36:34.119 --> 00:36:37.119
you know, he occurred to me
that maybe maybe I'm looking unto the wrong

442
00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:44.360
name. Maybe I should ask really
be asking for stuff under Edward Alexander Crowley,

443
00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:49.480
because they wouldn't make that connection for
me. Well, by the way,

444
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:52.239
I try that, and they don't
have any of those either. Even

445
00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:55.960
though maybe they're a were, they're
not entirely sure. But I still suspect.

446
00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:00.039
And one of the things I want
to continue looking into is that if

447
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:04.880
you probe around to the right places
and you look under the right name,

448
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:08.559
if you look for Edward as opposed
to Alistair, you're going to find more

449
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:14.239
things than you would suspect otherwise.
So I even we get that hand to

450
00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:20.280
anybody else who wants to go searching
after these things as well. So I

451
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:22.599
think that, yeah, that part
of what Croley is doing. What Alistair

452
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:28.719
Crowley is is his stage name,
it's his public persona. It's this person

453
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:36.239
that he plays and the tragedy,
and I do think that Croley in some

454
00:37:36.280 --> 00:37:37.760
ways is a kind of tragic figure. I mean, you know, he

455
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:40.800
was an asshole in a lot of
ways. There's no getting around that.

456
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:50.679
He was not an easy person to
deal with. But nevertheless, he did

457
00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:57.760
get saddled with a reputation that he
did not legitimately deserve. Not that he

458
00:37:57.800 --> 00:38:01.440
didn't embrace that for a long time. You know, when in nineteen twenty

459
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:07.840
two the British press described him as
the wickedest man in the world, he

460
00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:12.719
kind of thought that was cool because
he liked pissing off the authorities. You

461
00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:15.400
know, it's you know, you
like making people mad, and the whole

462
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:20.360
idea you can get these you know, pressy past press barons so uptight,

463
00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:23.199
you know, the pearl clutters to
clutch them even tighter and called, well,

464
00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:27.400
you must have achieved something if they
think you're the wickedest man in the

465
00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:31.000
world. Yeah, otherwise they don't
talk about you at all when you don't

466
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:37.000
exist. You know, infamy is
just fame with more letters. So but

467
00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:42.320
the thing is, the thing you
keep in mind all your children out there,

468
00:38:43.079 --> 00:38:45.440
is that once you get that reputation, it is a stink. You

469
00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:51.800
will never get off of you.
And that's what he began when he later

470
00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:57.920
wanted to be taken seriously, when
he wanted to be seen as something other

471
00:38:58.039 --> 00:39:02.800
than, you know, some sort
of creepy Croley another Cooeen. He found

472
00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:07.119
that that he couldn't that idea had
now been completely implanted in the public mind

473
00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:14.760
and they didn't want to. A
case of that was in I think it's

474
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:17.840
in nineteen thirty four. There was
a woman in Britain by the name of

475
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:22.400
Nina Hamnet who wrote a book called
The Naked Torso I don't know how I

476
00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:25.079
remember that, but I did,
and it was, you know, it

477
00:39:25.079 --> 00:39:31.039
was this autobiographical thing. But at
some point Decker to say earlier Crowley had

478
00:39:31.159 --> 00:39:38.679
run a kind of a cult commune
on the north coast of Sicily, the

479
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:45.519
the abbey of Thelema, a place
called Cephalou. You know, this was

480
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:47.880
It was a miserable failure in a
lot of ways, but this was and

481
00:39:47.960 --> 00:39:52.199
people came there and you know,
they perform magic, had sex, got

482
00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:57.519
sick, a whole variety of things
happened, and Nina Hamnet's and she and

483
00:39:57.559 --> 00:40:00.000
her boyfriend were there, and her
boyfriend got sick and died. Her boyfriend

484
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:06.440
died of typhoid calood. The water
wasn't any good, and you know,

485
00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:12.199
there wasn't anything terribly weird about it. Crowley in fact told him don't drink

486
00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:15.280
out of that well, and he
did it anyway. Yeah, I heard

487
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:16.880
it was Capwood. It was a
ritual thing that they did, and was

488
00:40:16.920 --> 00:40:21.880
actually a cat that poisoned him.
I think that's her story, but no,

489
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:28.199
she's got so she told this whole
story about child sacrifice and Crowley being

490
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:34.280
responsible for her boyfriend's death. So
he decided, Okay, here's my chance

491
00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:37.760
because I know that what she's saying
here alive. So I'm going to sue

492
00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:42.400
her for libel. She's libeling me
but she was, and then will then

493
00:40:42.519 --> 00:40:45.519
go into court and I can establish
that this book is a massive lies and

494
00:40:45.559 --> 00:40:51.000
therefore this can help undercut all these
other stories about me. I can I

495
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:54.599
can redeem my reputation by suing Nina
Hamnet and showing that her stories are lies.

496
00:40:57.360 --> 00:41:00.480
Well, he handled the whole thing
poorly, But the main thing was

497
00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:02.920
is that once he got into court, everyone was against him. The judge

498
00:41:04.039 --> 00:41:06.599
hated him. It had already decided
he was, you know, the scum

499
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:08.639
of the earth. Most of the
jury had already read about him in the

500
00:41:08.679 --> 00:41:15.840
papers and knew who he was.
And Crowley's lawyers could present medical certificates from

501
00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:22.920
Italian authorities showing the guy's cause of
death. It didn't matter. Okay,

502
00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:29.239
It was creepy Crowley who was bringing
charges against this woman, and he lost

503
00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:36.039
the case. It bankrupted him,
and all her defense had to do was

504
00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:38.760
just to go through and read newspaper
or so. What they did, of

505
00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:45.239
course, is they put him on
trial, and they weren't going to try

506
00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:46.519
to prove what she said was good, right, They were just really going

507
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:51.159
to prove that if she says anything
horrible about him, there are already so

508
00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:55.239
many or the horrible things about him
that this you know that somehow it must

509
00:41:55.320 --> 00:42:02.679
be true. So his whole calculation
was completely wrong. But he was doing

510
00:42:02.719 --> 00:42:07.239
that in his effort to try it
in some way, get to redeem his

511
00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:14.000
reputation in some way, but he
couldn't and he never really does. But

512
00:42:14.199 --> 00:42:16.639
I think it's that situation that you
can get. You know, if you

513
00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:22.920
play a role long enough, the
role begins to play you, the character

514
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:28.760
becomes you, right. I think
that's what happened to him, and of

515
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:32.760
course that brings up the interesting question
is that if Alistair Crowley was a stage

516
00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:37.760
name, if it was a persona, then how much of everything connected to

517
00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:45.519
it is fake? Yeah, yeah, I mean there's that, But I

518
00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:52.400
mean there's also the House at Lockness
that I mean, would why would to

519
00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:54.199
me, Paige be interested in it
if there wasn't occult stuff going on there.

520
00:42:54.199 --> 00:42:59.039
I believe that the rituals were actually
occurring. There's even this idea that

521
00:42:59.079 --> 00:43:02.440
with the Lucidania, uh, that
the thing that Churchill would do and he

522
00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:07.840
was he was the what do you
call it, the first Royal Admiral of

523
00:43:07.960 --> 00:43:13.480
or whatever it was called, uh, while he was in Admiralty Intelligence,

524
00:43:13.480 --> 00:43:16.320
Crowley was and that that's that thing
was supposed to be the sign of Typhon

525
00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:22.000
which they were evoking for the ritual
of taking down the Lusitania. So there's

526
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:24.559
that idea out there that that's a
thing, and I think that there's a

527
00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:30.199
lot of valid I mean brought he
you know, developed thilemma. He was

528
00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:36.199
given basically the reins of the Oto
and added the sodomy degree the eleventh.

529
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:37.760
I mean, he did a lot
of he did a lot of things that

530
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:40.920
were well, very vaulted, So
it's not like he would didn't have an

531
00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:45.079
interest in it and he was just
playing a part. You know. I'm

532
00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:50.719
trying to raise that possibility because on
the one hand, you have people who

533
00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:53.280
would argue that, well, we
were hard to find people who had argue

534
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:58.000
that Crowley was was completely a fake
because their whole idea was that magic and

535
00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:00.320
everything he stood for, the whole
rum of a coult is nothing but fakery,

536
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:05.760
and therefore since he promotes it,
he is ergo a fake. Well,

537
00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:07.960
I've thought this is like, we
know, like the ot O and

538
00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:13.679
the AA was like Cia or Rosicrucian
orders that they use as a puppet.

539
00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:15.039
It's just to be like, yeah, he'll be the full guy and they'll

540
00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:19.800
just I do question. I'm not
saying that Crowley wasn't a screwed up guy,

541
00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:22.719
but I actually whatever you're saying,
Rick, I think I question a

542
00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:27.000
lot of his stories if they're even
true, Tol, especially his mountain climbing.

543
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:30.920
I'm sorry, I think those are
actually occult stories. If you understand

544
00:44:30.920 --> 00:44:36.320
occultism and magic, you'll see exactly
what they're saying about Crowley. There.

545
00:44:36.519 --> 00:44:40.280
He's not climbing a fucking mountain.
I could be well, I'm sort of

546
00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:44.840
raising this to suggest that here again
do you enter this realm of uncertainty?

547
00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:47.719
Hey, and this is the very
thing are you talking about. The people

548
00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:51.079
might be up on the mountain to
say, yeah, that was Crowley up

549
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:53.360
there, whoever the fuck he paid. Probably, so you're talking about like

550
00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:58.599
desolation of the Apex like it's actually
it's a reference to a type of ritual

551
00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:02.039
or I think he's just doing by
work at that time, Nick, I

552
00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:04.800
don't know. I mean, I
do think like what he was saying,

553
00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:07.599
I do think he played both sides. I do think like he was definitely

554
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:10.079
working both sides. But I just
there's too many stories about him, And

555
00:45:10.119 --> 00:45:14.000
I'm not saying it to defend the
guy. That just some of them.

556
00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:17.320
To me, if you're into occultism, and even if you understand his writing

557
00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:20.559
and see certain things he hits on, it's like, well, you're seeing

558
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:22.920
it in these stories that's supposedly describing
his life as well. So I go,

559
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:28.440
how much of this is ciphered occultism
for other occultists to see, how

560
00:45:28.519 --> 00:45:32.000
much is bullshit or how much is
it real? It's all of them.

561
00:45:36.320 --> 00:45:40.599
It comes into this. It's the
same sort of thing. There are things

562
00:45:40.599 --> 00:45:47.039
that we experience, there are things
that we're told. So our whole general

563
00:45:47.159 --> 00:45:52.119
grasp of reality is based on this
amalgam of things that we've experienced and then

564
00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:55.679
things that we're told more than what
we're told, and we're experienced, and

565
00:45:55.880 --> 00:46:00.400
we also know that we can seem
that we we don't have exactly the same

566
00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:05.440
experience to others who might have been
there at the same time. So it's

567
00:46:05.480 --> 00:46:12.239
all very it's spooky, it's subjective, It depends upon perspective, and it

568
00:46:12.280 --> 00:46:16.719
depends upon your own mindset at the
time. So I mean, here's one

569
00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:21.840
case in point, when Crowley claimed
that he was working for British intelligence in

570
00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:27.480
New York in World War One.
That is I am of different things true,

571
00:46:28.639 --> 00:46:32.960
Okay, the full ramifications of everything
that that included. There are probably

572
00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:37.840
lots of other things we don't know
about. I mean, by going through

573
00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:40.519
and looking at his actions, you
know what I would do. Much of

574
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:44.519
what I do in the book is
that, Okay, here's here's essentially that

575
00:46:44.599 --> 00:46:46.760
the record of what he did and
who he knew, where he went during

576
00:46:46.760 --> 00:46:51.519
that period of time. There are
some things in that that seem to be

577
00:46:51.800 --> 00:46:55.800
very clearly intelligence related is connection.
You know his writing for the Fatherland.

578
00:46:57.239 --> 00:47:00.000
All right, that's that's clearly that
one of the things. But that wasn't

579
00:47:00.039 --> 00:47:05.800
all there was to it. And
then there are other things that are in

580
00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:13.559
some ways less certain but possible.
So at one point he goes on this

581
00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:15.679
whole Yeah, he gets money out
of it. This is one of the

582
00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:17.840
things to look for people that don't
have money who suddenly get money in their

583
00:47:17.840 --> 00:47:23.840
hands. So the thing that Crowley
is continually complaining about during the war years

584
00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:27.599
in the States is that he's not
getting any money. He's not getting any

585
00:47:27.639 --> 00:47:31.280
money. He complains later that,
yeah, that the British government paid him,

586
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:36.199
but they didn't pay him very much. So suddenly he gets enough money

587
00:47:36.199 --> 00:47:40.119
in his pocket so that he can
go on a cross country, a strail

588
00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:44.840
circuit journey all the way to the
West coast of the United States and back

589
00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:51.159
to New York. Wasn't cheap now, was it cheap? Then? So

590
00:47:51.400 --> 00:47:54.000
where does he get the money?
And then why does he take this particular

591
00:47:54.119 --> 00:47:59.760
route, and why does he visit
these particular places. So on the part

592
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:05.159
of it is that he's performing magical
rituals along the way, and I just

593
00:48:05.239 --> 00:48:08.199
to come back to a point the
game of earlier. I think Crawley believed

594
00:48:08.280 --> 00:48:15.039
in magic, that he took his
occult beliefs seriously. But I also don't

595
00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:19.639
think, if you look and read
carefully, that he necessarily knew exactly what

596
00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:23.800
was going on. He's as confused
about this as anybody else. I mean,

597
00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:29.679
there's one point I think it's in
magic and theory and practice where he

598
00:48:29.719 --> 00:48:31.760
goes. You know, you don't
really worry too much about whether these things

599
00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:37.440
are happening because of external for you
know, is it something external? Are

600
00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:40.119
there gods and demons and entities who
are doing this or is it just some

601
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:45.840
manifestation of your own psyche. So
it's adviced basically is that don't worry about

602
00:48:45.840 --> 00:48:50.199
it. If he works, the
only thing is if it works. If

603
00:48:50.199 --> 00:48:53.199
it works, you don't care why
it works. But he didn't really know.

604
00:48:53.440 --> 00:48:58.360
He didn't really know whether this was
something I am doing or whether it's

605
00:48:58.400 --> 00:49:02.920
something which is being done to me, you know what I mean. Another

606
00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:06.199
thing that I think is like kind
of like the hammer on the point that

607
00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:09.119
you're saying. Another thing that me
and Lisa have even noticed ourselves from covering

608
00:49:09.159 --> 00:49:15.079
like older people that were you know, before Crowley and before Math. You

609
00:49:15.079 --> 00:49:19.199
know, you start to almost see
I think, especially with Crole, I

610
00:49:19.239 --> 00:49:22.920
think it kind of like had a
clue and then ripped off other people's ideas

611
00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:28.920
and just changed your art a little
bit and kind of just rebranded someone else's

612
00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:31.119
idea. Yeah, well that's I
mean, that's a coviding before it's just

613
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:36.239
ripping it off and renaming it.
Yeah. I think of how many people

614
00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:44.480
they're all probably roughly acquainted with Madame
Blovotsky and theosophy, you know, root

615
00:49:44.599 --> 00:49:47.239
races, you know, you know, ascended math. You have to find

616
00:49:47.239 --> 00:49:52.920
out how many times that's been ripped
off by every cult leader between No,

617
00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:55.199
it's one of the biggest ones.
I think. I was, I was,

618
00:49:55.280 --> 00:50:02.039
you know, uh watching this uh
documentary about this strange cult. They're

619
00:50:02.039 --> 00:50:08.480
all strange, but this was the
Mother God called the Love has One You

620
00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:13.079
haven't seen that you really should,
because first of all, it's one of

621
00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:16.000
the lamest cults I've ever heard of. Most of the time, it's like

622
00:50:16.039 --> 00:50:19.719
you try to figure out why would
they believe that? But this is when

623
00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:22.840
like, what on earth is the
matter with you people? You know what?

624
00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:25.079
You know? The ahead of it
is this woman who is a former

625
00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:30.119
manager of McDonald's, and she thinks
she's the Mother God and she has to

626
00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:35.079
process negative energy by drinking yourself into
a stupor. But this was the best

627
00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:38.920
part of it. She's guided by
her version of the ascended Masters, which

628
00:50:38.960 --> 00:50:45.400
I think she calls the Celestials,
and the Chief, her sort of archangel,

629
00:50:45.480 --> 00:50:52.119
Gabriel, is the ghost of Robin
Williams. Yes, yes, so

630
00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:53.599
you've got some. When it was
telling you that I guess I need more

631
00:50:53.639 --> 00:50:58.000
alcohol in order to save the world, and oh, the ghost of Robin

632
00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:00.920
Williams was here and he told you
you all have to do this and give

633
00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:05.440
me your money. Is this the
same one that turned like grayskin? Because

634
00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:10.519
she was giving her colonials, she
essentially poisons herself and she ends up as

635
00:51:10.519 --> 00:51:15.920
this kind of green gray money.
And of course when she's dead, they

636
00:51:15.920 --> 00:51:20.039
can't accept that she's dead, so
they just keep her moldering corpse, you

637
00:51:20.079 --> 00:51:25.000
know, surrounded by Christmas lights.
But it's just it's all got insane,

638
00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:30.960
so it's decorated like a Christmas tree. Maybe it's just you know, it's

639
00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:34.719
like she went out on the web
and she, you know, read something

640
00:51:34.719 --> 00:51:37.039
about theosophy and thought Oh, it's
interesting, So I'll just come up with

641
00:51:37.079 --> 00:51:42.760
my own version of it, but
it just gets repeated over Well, you're

642
00:51:42.800 --> 00:51:45.880
talking about rip off? What did
Crowley rip off? For sure? The

643
00:51:45.960 --> 00:51:52.079
oto, he didn't come up with
it. It was a German secret society

644
00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:57.559
formed years before, and he really
just sort of stole it. You know,

645
00:51:57.800 --> 00:52:00.679
you know, no offense to you, Eddie, but none of you

646
00:52:00.039 --> 00:52:05.719
did just sort of steal it.
And they kind of were impressed by Crawley

647
00:52:05.800 --> 00:52:09.280
because of stuff that he stole from
Mathers that made him was intelligent, right,

648
00:52:09.320 --> 00:52:12.719
I mean, isn't that kind of
how that went? Well, yeah,

649
00:52:12.760 --> 00:52:15.119
he got in there, you know, he would try to take whatever

650
00:52:15.199 --> 00:52:17.480
him but yeah, he stole all
the stuff from from the Hermitic Order of

651
00:52:17.480 --> 00:52:22.800
the Golden Dawn and god knows what
else. But I think you steal from

652
00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:24.599
each other. And I've thought it's
funny about that, Like, you know,

653
00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:29.280
every secret society obviously they're gonna ask
you. You're not supposed to repeat

654
00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:34.000
anything. But it's like the guy
who's his name on disorder actually ran his

655
00:52:34.039 --> 00:52:37.039
mouth about a lot of stuff he
wasn't supposed to from the Golden Dawn.

656
00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:39.679
But you want me to not I
just think I just find that kind of

657
00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:44.639
contradictory with the OTO. You're a
guy had no problem running his mouth about

658
00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:49.599
the Golden Down. It is,
but it's yeah, it's so yeah.

659
00:52:49.639 --> 00:52:52.840
See, he essentially just appropriate.
He stole the OTO part of it.

660
00:52:52.840 --> 00:52:57.719
I mean, some of them never
really recognized him. But it wasn't something

661
00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:00.440
that he developed. It wasn't the
name that he came up with, but

662
00:53:00.519 --> 00:53:05.559
it was a good vehicle. He
wanted something to promote the Lima, which

663
00:53:05.639 --> 00:53:10.840
just never you know, Rick wasn't
he liked the perfect asset though, because

664
00:53:12.199 --> 00:53:16.000
some of these secret societies were impenetrable, and some of the people that were

665
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:21.920
attending these secret societies were people that
they wanted to get secrets from, even

666
00:53:21.960 --> 00:53:25.840
if it's just a scientist, even
if it's just a mathematician, a physicist,

667
00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:31.760
or whoever, if if you were
fighting a technical none an intelligent war.

668
00:53:32.159 --> 00:53:37.840
As these societies, as these agencies
were calling themselves intelligence. And for

669
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:43.119
some reason, it seems like to
me that these intelligence agencies, regardless if

670
00:53:43.159 --> 00:53:46.599
it's British, American, Russian,
they're all interested in the esoteric. They're

671
00:53:46.599 --> 00:53:52.039
all interested in the mind. The
mind is the last frontier that everybody wants

672
00:53:52.079 --> 00:53:54.760
to conquer, then you want to
know what these people are saying, what

673
00:53:54.920 --> 00:53:59.199
these practices are about, these rituals, what are they gaining? Are they

674
00:53:59.480 --> 00:54:06.400
able to manifest or infiltrate other people's
mind? And he was the perfect asset

675
00:54:06.519 --> 00:54:10.760
for them in that whole regard.
And I think it was somebody had mentioned

676
00:54:10.800 --> 00:54:14.719
that he had and correct me if
I'm wrong. I think he had kind

677
00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:19.400
of food barred an op or something
in Italy and then he kind of was

678
00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:24.119
trying to recover from that or something. Correctly, that's connected to this abbey

679
00:54:24.159 --> 00:54:29.440
of Thilema, Okay, and the
reason the Italians it was the early part

680
00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:36.280
of Mussolini's government. But the reason
the Italians expelled him, I think their

681
00:54:36.320 --> 00:54:40.719
public reason was because he was morally
reprehensible, so they expelled him from the

682
00:54:40.719 --> 00:54:45.719
country. But in the internal documentation
they suspect him of being a spy.

683
00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:49.840
Okay, And it's the same reason
he gets kicked out of France in nineteen

684
00:54:49.880 --> 00:54:54.880
twenty nine. The French poll his
residency permit and they make some sort of

685
00:54:54.880 --> 00:54:59.320
excuse like he was fooling around with
people. We think maybe we were involved

686
00:54:59.320 --> 00:55:02.440
in drug dealers, but basically we
think he was a spy. We think

687
00:55:02.840 --> 00:55:06.480
we think he was a British spy. And by the way, the French

688
00:55:06.559 --> 00:55:13.320
always think the English is spying on
them because they always are so excuse if

689
00:55:13.360 --> 00:55:16.039
your France. You know, they
learned this with Joan of Arc never trust

690
00:55:16.079 --> 00:55:22.360
the English. So but that was
his uh, you know, in Germany

691
00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:25.079
in the early thirties, the Germans
thought that he was a spy, and

692
00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:37.639
he is consistently. But it's there's
this whole this the thing. One of

693
00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:43.880
the things that intelligence and occultism has
in common is the obsession with secrets and

694
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:45.280
how to keep it secrets, and
how to keep it secrets. So what

695
00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:47.239
do you want to do is you
want to get other people's secrets, then

696
00:55:47.239 --> 00:55:51.880
you want to hide them away and
and embed them in something else. So

697
00:55:51.960 --> 00:55:55.639
this is where of the whole idea
of coming up with ritualistic language and allegory

698
00:55:55.760 --> 00:56:04.480
as a way of some times disguise
stories are just ciphered stories and somebody else

699
00:56:06.239 --> 00:56:14.039
well, now that's like, that's
why I think when he's when he's in

700
00:56:12.719 --> 00:56:17.559
the States during the war, he
writes he sort of created this his version

701
00:56:17.559 --> 00:56:23.599
of Sherlock Holmes called Simon if Okay, So simon If was his his first

702
00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:29.079
sort of occult detective and and the
stories and you can find them there.

703
00:56:29.199 --> 00:56:32.679
They're published the Scrutinies of Simon If. They collect the stories, and actually

704
00:56:32.760 --> 00:56:36.280
most of them are oh, I
won't say most, some of them are

705
00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:43.920
pretty good. And but the thing
about them is that he's writing about things

706
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:45.840
that are going on. And if
you go through some of these stories,

707
00:56:45.880 --> 00:56:51.000
you can find that he's writing about
real places and real people and to some

708
00:56:51.159 --> 00:56:57.559
degree real events. So he's talking
about in one of the stories that all

709
00:56:57.599 --> 00:57:06.119
involves using o Oiji board to sort
of ferret out this German conspiracy. And

710
00:57:06.199 --> 00:57:09.639
the od thing is is that that's
based upon something that actually happened, because

711
00:57:09.679 --> 00:57:15.119
there's another British intelligence official, a
guy named Norman Thwaites, who writes his

712
00:57:15.239 --> 00:57:19.400
own version of that where he talks
about the same thing. I mean,

713
00:57:19.800 --> 00:57:24.000
he and Crowley are giving slightly different
versions of So they'd involved a young woman

714
00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:31.840
with psychic abilities at al Ouiji board
and a German plot. So Crawley is

715
00:57:31.920 --> 00:57:37.480
embedding these fictional stories about a fictional
character, which is so first of all,

716
00:57:37.719 --> 00:57:42.880
simon If is based on him.
Simon If is just his version of

717
00:57:42.960 --> 00:57:47.840
himself. It's another character he's created, and he's creating these stories that's talking

718
00:57:47.840 --> 00:57:53.159
about events that, to some extent
actually happened. But it also probably there

719
00:57:53.159 --> 00:58:00.000
are things that are so here you
don't know. You've entered twilight zone.

720
00:58:01.079 --> 00:58:05.639
You've entered the twilight And see that's
me what history is. History is the

721
00:58:05.639 --> 00:58:09.159
Twilight Zone. You get into it
and you're never quite sure what's real and

722
00:58:09.280 --> 00:58:15.800
what is it. Some of it
is okay. The Simon, the character

723
00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:20.280
in the story, is actually a
version of the person who's writing it,

724
00:58:20.599 --> 00:58:27.239
and it incorporates things that actually happened, and it incorporates fanciful elements that went

725
00:58:27.320 --> 00:58:31.480
on as well. So there's a
female character that shows up in some of

726
00:58:31.519 --> 00:58:37.719
the Simon if story is called Dolores
Cass. It's sort of like this this

727
00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:43.199
college girl that he takes under his
wing. And so a question that I

728
00:58:43.360 --> 00:58:45.840
and a couple of other people had
is that was there an actual basis for

729
00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:54.360
that character? So who in real
life was Dolores Cass or is she completely

730
00:58:55.039 --> 00:59:00.280
fictional? Did he just make her
up? Is she based on a real

731
00:59:00.400 --> 00:59:05.480
person? And if she is,
how closely is she based on that real

732
00:59:05.559 --> 00:59:08.280
person? We never figured that one
out. But if you go through you

733
00:59:08.599 --> 00:59:13.360
could sort of look who the potential
candidate is. I tend to think that

734
00:59:13.400 --> 00:59:19.119
she's an amalgam of two or three
different people. But then now that this

735
00:59:19.199 --> 00:59:22.039
is the other thing you find that's
that's what literature, this thing is full

736
00:59:22.079 --> 00:59:25.760
of. You you end up with
a fictional character that isn't based on one

737
00:59:25.840 --> 00:59:34.079
person, but if is based on
several different people, incorporating different different aspects

738
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:39.599
of them. But it was you
know the value, Well, let's think

739
00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:47.760
of it this way. What if
magic works, particularly in this sense,

740
00:59:49.280 --> 00:59:57.800
in the Crowleian sense that that one
can alter well whether, as he put

741
00:59:57.800 --> 01:00:04.079
it, you can create change and
can formity with will, that you can

742
01:00:04.280 --> 01:00:09.199
use consciousness individual or collective to alter
reality. That's what he's talking about.

743
01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:21.000
You can shape reality through will.
Now, what if you can just imagine

744
01:00:21.039 --> 01:00:27.840
the intelligence implications of that, If
you could possibly so, you're certainly going

745
01:00:27.880 --> 01:00:30.519
to want to look into it.
So if you ever wonder whether the CIA

746
01:00:30.599 --> 01:00:32.960
and other agencies are constantly you know, they've got a bunch of remote viewers

747
01:00:34.039 --> 01:00:37.039
or psychics in a back room somewhere, and then they do that constantly,

748
01:00:37.360 --> 01:00:42.039
it's because there is the there is
the you have to figure out whether that

749
01:00:42.079 --> 01:00:47.840
works. I think I think that
was the beginning of proto quantum mechanics.

750
01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:53.599
There's certainly an overlap with that as
well, because because if you don't look

751
01:00:53.639 --> 01:00:57.920
into it, if you don't prove
to yourself it can work or it can't

752
01:00:57.960 --> 01:01:02.199
work, then you can't know what
it is your opponents were doing. I

753
01:01:02.280 --> 01:01:05.519
just think of this way. Should
figure out how you can put curses on

754
01:01:05.639 --> 01:01:08.639
God, a death curse God.
That's the easiest assassination in the world and

755
01:01:08.760 --> 01:01:13.880
is completely untraceable. People will just
drop dead and we'll we had nothing to

756
01:01:13.920 --> 01:01:16.360
do with it. Can we do
that? I don't know. It's like

757
01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:22.239
a few million dollars and black funds
and find out looks about making people drop

758
01:01:22.320 --> 01:01:28.800
dead through will heart attacks. We
got to try. Well, it's it's

759
01:01:28.840 --> 01:01:31.440
the whole, it's the minute stare
at goats, Okay, and there's there's

760
01:01:31.440 --> 01:01:34.960
a real story for it. So
what am I doing? Why am I

761
01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:40.400
staring at the goat? I'm trying
to concentrate to stop its heart. Okay,

762
01:01:40.440 --> 01:01:45.320
this guy's gotta go. This is
this is this is what the purpose

763
01:01:45.360 --> 01:01:50.199
of this would be. Somebody,
and we've got to know. Yeah,

764
01:01:50.360 --> 01:01:52.480
I did want to ask you a
question. I hate to go back a

765
01:01:52.519 --> 01:01:54.760
little bit. It was just like
an idea that actually a listener had in

766
01:01:55.679 --> 01:01:59.519
a chat on mine. I think
somehow we were talking about Crowley in like

767
01:01:59.559 --> 01:02:02.960
different addresses, and I guess,
first off, I'd like to ask you,

768
01:02:04.000 --> 01:02:05.880
do you know how many places?
And have to put you on the

769
01:02:05.880 --> 01:02:09.039
spot, how many different addresses did
he live at? Why he was supposedly,

770
01:02:09.960 --> 01:02:14.880
you know, I guess an agent, because like I guess, like,

771
01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:17.480
let's say there just in the States
during World War I wana his entire

772
01:02:17.559 --> 01:02:21.840
life, no, like when you
think he might have actually been working like

773
01:02:21.920 --> 01:02:25.119
for intelligence, well somewhere. I
didn't compile it, but a friend of

774
01:02:25.119 --> 01:02:30.000
mine went through and tried to come
up with every address they could confirm.

775
01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:34.280
Or he lived in the US between
nineteen fourteen and nineteen nineteen, so it

776
01:02:34.360 --> 01:02:38.119
isn't the US for about five years. And I've got that around some way.

777
01:02:38.360 --> 01:02:44.440
It's many he moved around. Yeah, And the reason why I was

778
01:02:44.480 --> 01:02:49.320
even bringing that up is because somebody
brought up a good point. I thought

779
01:02:49.360 --> 01:02:53.159
about that, and not necessarily every
address, but like I would wonder,

780
01:02:53.639 --> 01:02:59.920
are those addresses actually kind of like
safe houses for the intelligence and their housing

781
01:03:00.119 --> 01:03:02.559
him there to begin with. So
it's just it was just kind of like

782
01:03:02.599 --> 01:03:06.320
a you know, just a wondering
idea, like, you know, maybe

783
01:03:06.320 --> 01:03:08.679
people that have lived there prior and
after might also be intelligence as well.

784
01:03:08.760 --> 01:03:13.199
That could always be an interesting question. He lived in hotels, and I

785
01:03:13.280 --> 01:03:17.559
know one of them was a Rewort
hotel which was in Manhattan, which later

786
01:03:17.599 --> 01:03:21.760
became a much more CD place than
it was at the time, but a

787
01:03:21.840 --> 01:03:27.000
lot of artists needed to stay there. I mean. The one thing,

788
01:03:27.079 --> 01:03:30.639
the one thing that the British didn't
want in that period when he when he's

789
01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:35.280
actively working, is they don't they
don't want to have anything that would connect

790
01:03:35.400 --> 01:03:42.360
them with him. Everything is supposed
to separate them. So that's one of

791
01:03:42.400 --> 01:03:45.840
his complaints is that he's largely left
on his own, so they're not going

792
01:03:45.920 --> 01:03:50.079
to do much for him. When
he really needs it, they'll come up

793
01:03:50.079 --> 01:03:54.519
with money. This is something else
to look for in Crawley's whole career.

794
01:03:54.599 --> 01:04:00.400
You noticed that his whole life,
basically once he spends his inheritance, was

795
01:04:00.480 --> 01:04:05.280
exhausted by nineteen seventeen. That was
the question I had. Yeah, yeah,

796
01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:08.920
I think I think nineteen step that's
when he gets one of the last

797
01:04:09.039 --> 01:04:15.079
chunks from his mother. Yeah,
for cruy al from mom and uh.

798
01:04:15.079 --> 01:04:20.440
And there's this interesting relationship there,
but it's you know, but he goes

799
01:04:20.480 --> 01:04:25.920
through his money. Uh. And
he could have he could have frittered his

800
01:04:26.039 --> 01:04:30.679
life away in pleasant debauchery if he
just had some sense of how to manage

801
01:04:30.719 --> 01:04:35.599
money. And he doesn't. He's
terrible with money. He borrows money from

802
01:04:35.639 --> 01:04:43.159
people, he never pays it back. He's not particularly a good friend.

803
01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:45.920
I think I think he would have
been a real pain in the ass of

804
01:04:45.920 --> 01:04:47.320
a friend because he would constantly you
know, it's the one that never has

805
01:04:47.360 --> 01:04:55.199
a place to stay, never has
any money. He's always complaining. There's

806
01:04:55.239 --> 01:05:00.440
a book, you know, here's
this group of followers in California, Gopy

807
01:05:00.480 --> 01:05:06.679
Lodge in Los Angeles, one that
Jack Parsons gets connected to. And there's

808
01:05:06.920 --> 01:05:12.360
there's a to me a kind of
revealing book that was written by Martin Starr

809
01:05:12.400 --> 01:05:15.159
called The Unknown God, which which
is was essentially sort of the history of

810
01:05:15.480 --> 01:05:20.599
the Agappy Lodge and of the Oto
and in Hollywood and Los Angeles. And

811
01:05:20.639 --> 01:05:27.639
it doesn't really amount to much of
anything, and but it has it deals

812
01:05:27.679 --> 01:05:31.719
with the correspondence between Crowley who's sitting
over in London, constantly complaining about one

813
01:05:31.719 --> 01:05:36.679
thing or another, and all he
wants from these people is money, and

814
01:05:36.719 --> 01:05:40.639
he just treats them. These are
people, you know, Wilfred Smith and

815
01:05:40.679 --> 01:05:45.679
others who misguided or not, have
largely devoted their lives to him and really

816
01:05:45.719 --> 01:05:50.960
do send him any spare amounty they
have, and he just treats them like

817
01:05:51.199 --> 01:05:58.800
shit. He constantly complains he is
ungrateful for anything they do to him,

818
01:05:59.280 --> 01:06:03.519
and you know, and then that
to me sort of epitomized Crawleys as an

819
01:06:03.559 --> 01:06:10.079
asshole, as someone who's just a
difficult person to deal with. That manipulation

820
01:06:11.400 --> 01:06:15.280
like that. I don't know why
I'm hearing myself, but that's that's a

821
01:06:15.360 --> 01:06:18.599
that's a tool of manipulation though like
the beaten dog. You know, it's

822
01:06:18.639 --> 01:06:24.280
more loyal if you did it like
crap type of thing. And with him,

823
01:06:24.320 --> 01:06:27.000
I mean he probably at that time, if we believe the story has

824
01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:30.079
had multiple addictions, so that type
of attitude would also come out too.

825
01:06:30.159 --> 01:06:33.239
If you were fiending, you know, you would want it. You would

826
01:06:33.239 --> 01:06:38.639
want the money before you had the
itch, well ahead of time, before

827
01:06:38.679 --> 01:06:41.360
you had the itch, right because
after that you're out of your mind.

828
01:06:42.119 --> 01:06:48.480
So yeah, he's but it's it's
it's a toxic relationship. Yes he's manipulating,

829
01:06:48.480 --> 01:06:55.079
but it's it's just it's he's just
being He's an enigma though who was

830
01:06:55.280 --> 01:07:00.440
passionate him. Yeah, Like there's
certain people he does actually take under his

831
01:07:00.440 --> 01:07:03.360
wing with like some sort of tenderness. So it's weird how he acts.

832
01:07:03.400 --> 01:07:08.280
It's it's very And here's the thing
that I wonder because when you look at

833
01:07:08.280 --> 01:07:13.679
his childhood, those brethrens like the
Plymouth, the Exclusive, going back to

834
01:07:13.719 --> 01:07:16.920
the Moravian you can even go back
to the Asiatic like those those were the

835
01:07:16.960 --> 01:07:24.559
converts from from Jacob Frank that created
those would then become Christian Zionist Brethrens like

836
01:07:24.639 --> 01:07:28.719
that was that was those converts that
became you know, Catholics and Christians that

837
01:07:28.800 --> 01:07:35.360
formulated those The Asiatic Brethren was started
by Jacob Frank's brother in law. So

838
01:07:35.400 --> 01:07:41.280
you have this Sabotine Francis type of
thing which is completely inverted. You have

839
01:07:41.719 --> 01:07:45.480
the child abuse, the sex,
all that stuff, all the all the

840
01:07:45.480 --> 01:07:48.639
breaking of the of the taboos.
How much of that was part of Crowley's

841
01:07:48.920 --> 01:07:54.320
you know childhood that may have made
him more of the beast than we would

842
01:07:54.320 --> 01:07:58.840
imagine. And that type of person
Francis is never supposed to be what he

843
01:07:58.920 --> 01:08:02.039
is outwardly, you know, inuitarly, not outwardly, right, So he

844
01:08:02.480 --> 01:08:06.800
would be the perfect type of candidate
four type of like a like an intelligence

845
01:08:06.840 --> 01:08:12.679
agency type of spy because he lived
that way. You always have a fake

846
01:08:12.760 --> 01:08:16.479
persona for the world where you're you
know, you're you're coveting and you're secreting,

847
01:08:16.680 --> 01:08:19.960
you know, what you actually do
in private, and they like the

848
01:08:20.000 --> 01:08:27.000
whole thing is like you know,
wife swapping orgies, blood rituals, drinking

849
01:08:27.359 --> 01:08:30.800
blood and all kinds of stuff like
that child rape was one of those,

850
01:08:30.840 --> 01:08:33.479
and passing around your own children.
So who knows what he had experienced.

851
01:08:34.039 --> 01:08:38.039
Well, there again, if you
look from the outside, what you see

852
01:08:38.079 --> 01:08:44.439
in the Crowleys as a you know, a puritanical, a well off trade

853
01:08:44.439 --> 01:08:46.840
family. You know they're they're they're
not aristocrats. You know, they've they've

854
01:08:46.840 --> 01:08:54.560
made money in trade. They're the
bourgeoisieois right, respectable, right and respectable,

855
01:08:54.680 --> 01:09:00.159
a very respectable family and members of
a non conformist Christian fundaments a sect.

856
01:09:00.399 --> 01:09:03.680
Now, what kind of weird things
could possibly go on in a Christian

857
01:09:03.720 --> 01:09:11.560
fundamental asseect all right, maybe nothing
okay, And see you don't know.

858
01:09:11.880 --> 01:09:14.520
And it's not trying to assist that
it's one thing or another, but the

859
01:09:14.560 --> 01:09:17.880
that's just it. You don't know. All you see is the kind of

860
01:09:18.000 --> 01:09:24.319
outside of this family. You don't
know what the internal dynamics were in one

861
01:09:24.399 --> 01:09:31.159
form or another. He certainly had
a very bad relationship with his uncle.

862
01:09:32.079 --> 01:09:38.159
Yes, his mother's brother, Tom
Booth, last name is Booth, hated

863
01:09:38.239 --> 01:09:42.840
him and I think probably his uncle
despised me. You know what, what

864
01:09:42.960 --> 01:09:46.520
exactly was the root of that?
Why was the uncle so negative towards him

865
01:09:46.760 --> 01:09:55.680
and he towards the other one.
It's, you know, trying to understand

866
01:09:56.439 --> 01:10:03.560
that there's nothing more mysterious than the
dynamic of human interactions. He was devastated

867
01:10:03.560 --> 01:10:06.039
by his father's death, and I
think it was like some kind of lung

868
01:10:06.239 --> 01:10:09.920
or not tongue cancer or something,
right like, that's some kind of weird

869
01:10:09.960 --> 01:10:15.960
thing with his mouth, that cancer. I think that's what. Yeah,

870
01:10:15.000 --> 01:10:20.119
he idolized his father. Of course, you know, his father died eleven

871
01:10:20.279 --> 01:10:23.720
so he could he could you know, you never had to deal with him.

872
01:10:24.319 --> 01:10:27.760
He never lived through his dad as
an adolescent word. And I'm almost

873
01:10:27.840 --> 01:10:32.000
wondering that doesn't necessarily mean that it
was absent of the like sexual abuse,

874
01:10:32.319 --> 01:10:35.880
because that bond can still remain there
even if there was that, and that

875
01:10:35.920 --> 01:10:39.640
could have been the reason why he
was so devastated. It doesn't mean that

876
01:10:39.680 --> 01:10:42.800
there was, but that doesn't mean
that there was either, right exactly.

877
01:10:42.920 --> 01:10:48.159
It's just we're creating our narratives that
we cannot look into anymore. It's one

878
01:10:48.199 --> 01:10:55.600
of those things. And and it's
opaque because that's something that doesn't doesn't yield

879
01:10:55.680 --> 01:10:58.279
physical records. You know, I
don't know. Maybe he run across as

880
01:10:58.319 --> 01:11:00.319
the chest and a bunch of people
wrote person the letters in one form or

881
01:11:00.319 --> 01:11:04.000
another, but you're not going to
find that, so you really don't know.

882
01:11:04.479 --> 01:11:08.000
They wouldn't be very frank to them
if they wrote it down anyway.

883
01:11:08.479 --> 01:11:11.840
Oh you're not. People do that
even though they're not supposed to. Okay,

884
01:11:11.840 --> 01:11:15.319
even spy, you never write and
never put anything in writing. Ok

885
01:11:15.600 --> 01:11:20.479
I hope you've all learned that so
far. But I think one of the

886
01:11:20.479 --> 01:11:26.600
the underlying themes of Crowley it was
everything was supposed to be interpreted backwards.

887
01:11:26.880 --> 01:11:32.399
Everything was supposed to be interpreted opposite
of what you see and what you read.

888
01:11:33.119 --> 01:11:38.279
If if I'm not mistaken, he
said, you even talked about at

889
01:11:38.279 --> 01:11:43.039
some point like to be if you're
going to be a legitimate and what do

890
01:11:43.079 --> 01:11:45.239
you call a serious magician, you
should learn to talk backwards, walk backwards,

891
01:11:45.479 --> 01:11:48.159
you know, all kinds of weird
stuff like to do in backwards.

892
01:11:48.159 --> 01:11:51.520
It almost makes you wonder if the
realm that he's trying to access is like

893
01:11:51.640 --> 01:11:55.479
a mirror image of ours, so
they only notice you if you're moving the

894
01:11:55.520 --> 01:11:57.760
same way that they are. It's
kind of a weird thing, right,

895
01:11:57.880 --> 01:12:02.119
yeah, or so much like with
how everything is inverted, everything is backwards

896
01:12:03.079 --> 01:12:09.399
les, yeah, and then in
the oculum, yeah, no, absolutely.

897
01:12:09.439 --> 01:12:13.880
And then he was a huge fan
of the author from Alice in Wonderland,

898
01:12:14.000 --> 01:12:18.439
Lewis Carroll. And Lewis Carroll had
the condition where he in his mind

899
01:12:18.439 --> 01:12:21.479
everything was already flipped. Like in
terms of seeing things, it was already

900
01:12:21.520 --> 01:12:28.079
flipped. He didn't have the readjustment
as a normal vision and as well as

901
01:12:28.119 --> 01:12:32.760
reading. And I think it's the
Alice in Wonderland syndrome, which it is.

902
01:12:33.119 --> 01:12:39.399
Weirdly, it's the acronym sounds like
iowas, which was the entity that

903
01:12:39.479 --> 01:12:48.119
he contacted in Egypt, so you
know, the similarities are there hugely well

904
01:12:49.000 --> 01:12:53.760
as usual, there's you know,
it's so likely you can read things on

905
01:12:53.960 --> 01:12:59.079
multiple levels, which is system with
me. Is just another way of saying

906
01:12:59.159 --> 01:13:02.720
you don't understand it. And then
and that's that's I think that's okay to

907
01:13:02.760 --> 01:13:06.079
do. I think it's really where
you've got to start out is going I

908
01:13:06.119 --> 01:13:12.159
don't understand this. I mean,
there's something here, but I don't know

909
01:13:12.239 --> 01:13:17.159
exactly what it is. And it's
you've got to, you know, to

910
01:13:17.239 --> 01:13:24.880
sort of keep yourself honest in a
way. You don't want your narrative to

911
01:13:24.880 --> 01:13:35.000
get too carried away with it.
So it's that is sometimes sometimes the story,

912
01:13:35.239 --> 01:13:39.960
the script can can take over because
you want to make all of this

913
01:13:40.119 --> 01:13:42.560
turnout. You know, you want
to be able to say I under I

914
01:13:42.600 --> 01:13:46.479
know everything, and I understand everything. And then that's where you know,

915
01:13:46.520 --> 01:13:54.640
you've you've always got this slippery slope
where speculation begins to turn into fact or

916
01:13:54.680 --> 01:14:01.079
into portraying the fact. Okay,
where something it possibly could be to things

917
01:14:02.239 --> 01:14:08.079
into where it is in some way, and we like certainty, we like

918
01:14:08.159 --> 01:14:14.000
the story to come out into a
particular way. But the reality is that

919
01:14:14.039 --> 01:14:17.600
things aren't certain. Nothing is,
you know. I think like what you're

920
01:14:17.640 --> 01:14:20.560
kind of getting at, and I
think like what you're saying. I guess

921
01:14:20.560 --> 01:14:24.399
it would be the after effect of
like trying to guess that things that you

922
01:14:24.479 --> 01:14:28.359
really don't know anything about, but
making it certain. I feel like you

923
01:14:28.560 --> 01:14:31.600
actually kind of described and it's my
just my opinion. I do think it

924
01:14:31.680 --> 01:14:38.640
may be kind of due to occultist
or something something with the Internet, but

925
01:14:38.720 --> 01:14:45.399
I feel like that thinking has kind
of interjected itself into conspiracies hugely, and

926
01:14:45.520 --> 01:14:49.920
especially like Quanon stuff, to where
you're going to tumble down this just absurdity

927
01:14:50.640 --> 01:14:56.479
of things and just keep going and
just almost roam with fantasies that you've created

928
01:14:56.560 --> 01:15:00.159
so you can make sense of something
your brain can't act rapids head around.

929
01:15:00.760 --> 01:15:04.199
Like I actually wonder if that's like
part of like mentally syopping people. We're

930
01:15:04.199 --> 01:15:08.000
gonna give you ship that you're actually
gonna play with so much you'll never even

931
01:15:08.000 --> 01:15:12.359
know what the fuck happened. Well, you can give them enough information and

932
01:15:12.840 --> 01:15:15.880
then lead them to towards a particular
conclusion. I mean, you always have

933
01:15:15.920 --> 01:15:19.680
to somehow get them to think that
it's their idea. That's you know,

934
01:15:19.880 --> 01:15:26.600
you're you're manipulating in a particular way, like the Delphi method, right,

935
01:15:26.720 --> 01:15:30.960
Like when you you with leading questions, you kind of get people to expose

936
01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:34.000
their own uh what do you call
it, the weaknesses in their in their

937
01:15:34.119 --> 01:15:40.600
argument. It's a pretty selected Yeah, you're kind of leading it right by

938
01:15:40.680 --> 01:15:45.800
bye your questioning. You're getting them
to have to examine themselves. Yeah.

939
01:15:45.920 --> 01:15:47.279
Well, it's the other thing that
we all confront is the role also being

940
01:15:47.279 --> 01:15:51.359
continually manipulated all the time. I
mean, just look at advertising, all

941
01:15:51.439 --> 01:15:59.520
right, there's there's nothing which is
you know, it's one of the things

942
01:15:59.520 --> 01:16:01.800
that you know, certainly from the
time I've retired martly because it's you know,

943
01:16:02.239 --> 01:16:05.039
useful. Is that. I admit
to being kind of a YouTube junkie.

944
01:16:05.760 --> 01:16:10.760
All right. I used to watch
television. Now I just watch stupid

945
01:16:10.920 --> 01:16:15.600
crap on YouTube. And sometimes it's
it's good. Sometimes it is just to

946
01:16:15.840 --> 01:16:20.399
I do enjoy every now and then
just stupid mindless crap. I like people

947
01:16:20.479 --> 01:16:25.640
spied lunking. Okay, it's going
down in caves for some reason. Satisfied.

948
01:16:26.560 --> 01:16:30.680
But the one thing, and this
this isn't any like I haven't noticed

949
01:16:30.680 --> 01:16:33.039
anything that shouldn't have been obvious to
me to begin with. And I'm embarrassed

950
01:16:33.039 --> 01:16:35.920
to say that this didn't strike me
them and I looked at it. But

951
01:16:35.960 --> 01:16:40.720
if you go through when you look
at the descriptions of most videos on YouTube,

952
01:16:41.199 --> 01:16:45.439
they're all exaggerated. Okay, it's
all it's clickbait, it's it's never

953
01:16:45.840 --> 01:16:48.439
it never comes up with what it
is that it advertises it's going to be.

954
01:16:49.199 --> 01:16:54.199
And this is just purely manipulated.
This is YouTube doing this. It's

955
01:16:54.239 --> 01:17:03.800
marketing. It's marketing, and you
know, uh, like I'm big into

956
01:17:03.840 --> 01:17:09.199
true crime sometimes just to like sometimes
I even use that just like decompressed or

957
01:17:09.239 --> 01:17:12.880
just like I know that's probably not
the nicest thing to think about, but

958
01:17:13.039 --> 01:17:17.319
whatever to decompress, but I'll put
that on. But there's like certain channels

959
01:17:17.359 --> 01:17:21.159
that I've been noticing, you know, for a while now that I will

960
01:17:21.199 --> 01:17:28.560
see that the headline is not exactly
what happened in the crime, it's what

961
01:17:28.680 --> 01:17:31.800
if once you press play and get
into it, it hasn't actually happened.

962
01:17:35.520 --> 01:17:38.880
Co Burgers, you know, they
got them, Like what the fuck?

963
01:17:39.000 --> 01:17:42.239
Like you know, like you just
played with my emotions over the title of

964
01:17:42.279 --> 01:17:48.000
this show. Okay, So did
you just mention and yeah, you know

965
01:17:48.039 --> 01:17:51.840
that I live in the town where
that murder occurred. We've been dying to

966
01:17:51.880 --> 01:17:56.720
ask you about the pulse who's been
talking about Yes, it's so, it's

967
01:17:56.800 --> 01:17:59.399
it's it put Moscow, you know
where, like the murder capital of the

968
01:17:59.399 --> 01:18:04.319
Pacific north West or over that now. But but that's one of the EPs,

969
01:18:04.680 --> 01:18:13.640
is that I do watch some of
these things. The US is.

970
01:18:14.119 --> 01:18:15.920
You know, you've got all these
two crime shows and these various people who

971
01:18:15.920 --> 01:18:20.960
are you know, whether they're psychics
who are trying to figure out the case,

972
01:18:23.960 --> 01:18:28.119
but there are people who just come
up with they've never been here.

973
01:18:28.359 --> 01:18:30.880
Okay, this is an example of
someone who's trying to analyze. There's one

974
01:18:30.920 --> 01:18:35.279
woman in particular, and apparently she
can use Google Maps, she just can't

975
01:18:35.359 --> 01:18:41.640
use it well. And she's got
all of this whole sort of geography of

976
01:18:41.680 --> 01:18:45.560
the place in her mind, and
so she describes the relationships between play and

977
01:18:45.600 --> 01:18:49.520
it's just it's not there. If
you just went and looked at the place,

978
01:18:50.439 --> 01:18:54.479
you would realize that these plays are
not in any way and connected to

979
01:18:54.560 --> 01:18:59.199
each other. You know, the
tunnels under the university are just perfectly normal

980
01:18:59.439 --> 01:19:03.000
access to tunnels there's no gold mine. You know, it's just one just

981
01:19:04.239 --> 01:19:10.000
I can't describe it any other way
than one moronic story after the other,

982
01:19:10.119 --> 01:19:15.600
which is completely based on nothing.
And and it's just and I just want

983
01:19:15.640 --> 01:19:18.680
to tell these people that you're not
helping. Okay, this is not helping

984
01:19:18.800 --> 01:19:23.600
anyone, This is not solving the
case. You're not getting any closer.

985
01:19:24.000 --> 01:19:30.560
You're just free form fantasizing. Well
you can, if you can do it,

986
01:19:30.600 --> 01:19:36.960
but it's you know, you're just
describing a place that does not exist.

987
01:19:39.199 --> 01:19:43.359
It exists only in your mind.
Uh, it's not actually there.

988
01:19:43.800 --> 01:19:47.239
So you're saying that it's not the
catacombs of a mythrae in temple underneath that

989
01:19:47.319 --> 01:19:54.640
uh university for a definite fact,
that there is no mith raem under the

990
01:19:54.720 --> 01:20:00.000
university. But I'm pretty damn sure
there isn't. There's nothing that would be

991
01:20:00.079 --> 01:20:08.800
extremely So, you know, I
don't I don't particularly I don't hate fraternities

992
01:20:08.800 --> 01:20:12.199
and sororities. I have, you
know, full disclosure. I've never been

993
01:20:12.239 --> 01:20:16.079
part, never wanted. I think
they're weird, but nevertheless, that's what

994
01:20:16.119 --> 01:20:18.560
people want to do. But you
know, I've known enough people and then

995
01:20:18.560 --> 01:20:26.359
that they're relatively you know, there's
probably some beast reality that goes on farm

996
01:20:26.439 --> 01:20:31.640
animals, that type of thing.
You know, nothing that that's but I'd

997
01:20:31.680 --> 01:20:36.520
say that's about as far as it
goes, you know, human sacrifice.

998
01:20:36.560 --> 01:20:41.000
I think it stops probably before that, but it depends of course upon the

999
01:20:41.039 --> 01:20:45.119
fraternity and the way their things are
going. But it's yeah, people with

1000
01:20:45.319 --> 01:20:48.680
just and and and I think in
in the the Idaho four case, in

1001
01:20:49.000 --> 01:20:51.880
the in that case, one of
the things that feeds is is simply the

1002
01:20:51.960 --> 01:20:58.560
lack of information. And and because
there is no information, then it will

1003
01:20:58.720 --> 01:21:03.479
just be there's there. There's one
particular piece of video, the grub truck

1004
01:21:03.600 --> 01:21:06.880
video. You ever seen this,
and it's the place where the two girls

1005
01:21:08.199 --> 01:21:11.560
or to them, it's just it's
a grub truck of just out there for

1006
01:21:11.680 --> 01:21:14.840
people get out of bars and they
can go and eat food and throw it

1007
01:21:14.880 --> 01:21:20.760
up before they get home. And
there it's just it's there's nothing unusual going

1008
01:21:20.760 --> 01:21:24.960
on. It's just a typical night
at this place. But people have gone

1009
01:21:25.000 --> 01:21:30.479
over every frame of this and they
have somehow almost that every single person there

1010
01:21:30.840 --> 01:21:34.079
is somehow involved in the murder,
all of them. And it's just this

1011
01:21:34.239 --> 01:21:43.239
gigantic all encompassing conspiracy. You know
that involves macaroni and cheese and you know

1012
01:21:43.640 --> 01:21:46.479
nothing. It's just you know,
I have actually as you, I don't

1013
01:21:46.600 --> 01:21:50.720
think this would be such a big
of a case on like YouTube and conspiracy

1014
01:21:50.760 --> 01:21:55.239
people if there is more information,
Because you're right, I think the lack

1015
01:21:55.279 --> 01:22:00.239
of it gives the lack of information
to imaginations and over time. Yes,

1016
01:22:00.520 --> 01:22:04.000
but it's a prime example, I
guess if I had a point in here.

1017
01:22:04.199 --> 01:22:08.359
The example is that this is where
with a lack of information, people

1018
01:22:08.359 --> 01:22:12.479
want to create a narrative, and
so they'll will create all of these different

1019
01:22:12.520 --> 01:22:15.920
scenarios about the murder and who was
responsible to the rest of it, some

1020
01:22:16.439 --> 01:22:21.600
more absurd than others, all different
levels of absurdity. But it's all based

1021
01:22:21.600 --> 01:22:26.840
because they don't actually have any real
and so they then do what people do,

1022
01:22:27.319 --> 01:22:32.079
They make it up, which ties
back into your point about history.

1023
01:22:32.760 --> 01:22:38.800
How you have such a lack of
maimation they have to make it. You

1024
01:22:38.880 --> 01:22:42.720
did that, well, you know, you got to come up with it.

1025
01:22:43.000 --> 01:22:45.319
We just can't leave it unexplained.
So there's got to be so this

1026
01:22:45.319 --> 01:22:49.520
this is why it happened. Well
maybe it did, maybe it didn't.

1027
01:22:50.159 --> 01:22:54.439
So are we talking about the same
one where there's like sticks laid across the

1028
01:22:54.439 --> 01:23:00.720
body, and it was one okay, okay, okay, gotcha. This

1029
01:23:00.880 --> 01:23:05.800
was just you know, knife slaughter
ry. We don't have those a regular

1030
01:23:05.880 --> 01:23:12.560
run of the military crest, just
you know, just bloody murder for some

1031
01:23:12.640 --> 01:23:19.840
unknown purpose. Rights. So I
had a well, now you guys go

1032
01:23:19.880 --> 01:23:24.840
first, because I was gonna I
I had a quick comment. I spent

1033
01:23:24.960 --> 01:23:30.880
some time with Crowley's handwritten journals,
and I started to see how and this

1034
01:23:31.039 --> 01:23:35.399
is prior to this was for the
vision and the voice. His publication is

1035
01:23:35.439 --> 01:23:40.640
considered I guess the second most important
what he considered from book of the law,

1036
01:23:40.840 --> 01:23:46.600
and and I started to see how
he was formulating, formulizing the actual

1037
01:23:47.199 --> 01:23:51.319
book. And so he would write
on one side of the page and on

1038
01:23:51.359 --> 01:23:56.319
the other side there was like mathematical
formulations, or he was you know,

1039
01:23:56.359 --> 01:24:00.640
scribbling something, drawing stuff out,
or there was actual sometimes math equations,

1040
01:24:00.960 --> 01:24:03.239
and then you know, you would
see Jamatria tup because he would write out,

1041
01:24:03.600 --> 01:24:06.239
you know, a phrase and then
the numbering and what have you.

1042
01:24:06.880 --> 01:24:12.560
And so it's it gave me the
impression that there was a lot more going

1043
01:24:12.640 --> 01:24:17.239
on prior to I mean, obviously
with any person who writes, you're formulating

1044
01:24:17.399 --> 01:24:20.680
how you're going to style it.
One other thing that stuck out to me

1045
01:24:20.800 --> 01:24:28.560
the most was there were specific words
that were capitalized over and over and over

1046
01:24:28.840 --> 01:24:34.600
that had no real noun importance to
be capitalized, and you and they're in

1047
01:24:34.640 --> 01:24:38.720
there. It included also like in
an addition to where I guess they gave

1048
01:24:38.760 --> 01:24:41.159
it to him and he would circle
and cross out like, no, this

1049
01:24:41.199 --> 01:24:44.159
had need to be capitalized. No, this word's not capitalized, even though

1050
01:24:44.159 --> 01:24:48.520
it was the exact same more two
pages before. And so you almost start

1051
01:24:48.520 --> 01:24:54.119
to see like a method to the
madness of it into where it felt like

1052
01:24:54.199 --> 01:24:57.439
it was code. It felt like
there was a cipher. It felt like

1053
01:24:57.520 --> 01:25:01.960
there there was more, much more
thought than just hey do this, do

1054
01:25:02.039 --> 01:25:06.079
that you might get this result or
use this ritual, use this spell or

1055
01:25:06.079 --> 01:25:12.000
whatever. It much more layered than
any of that. And not to not

1056
01:25:12.119 --> 01:25:16.039
to go on about it, but
it almost seemed like people that they kind

1057
01:25:16.119 --> 01:25:20.560
of look at some of this stuff
that they take it at face value and

1058
01:25:20.600 --> 01:25:27.119
they're not truly seeing that all of
this other stuff of probably his upbringing and

1059
01:25:27.159 --> 01:25:30.560
then his involvement in all the secret
societies, and then as well as some

1060
01:25:30.600 --> 01:25:34.960
of the visions he claimed to have
had that there was that the actual book,

1061
01:25:34.960 --> 01:25:40.239
final product was much more layered than
actual people were giving credit for,

1062
01:25:41.000 --> 01:25:44.399
and not to you know, go
on about that. It just it seemed

1063
01:25:44.399 --> 01:25:47.359
like, I don't know that there
was there was much more going on there,

1064
01:25:47.399 --> 01:25:54.640
and that potentially this final product was
something that involved intelligence, that involves

1065
01:25:54.680 --> 01:25:59.720
some sort of cipher that involved also
a coded message out to the rest of

1066
01:25:59.760 --> 01:26:03.880
the world world for many different walks
of life. Well, first, yeah,

1067
01:26:03.920 --> 01:26:08.479
I think you're absolutely right. I
can't say in detail, but I

1068
01:26:08.479 --> 01:26:13.000
think you're you're onto something that there's
there's always a different levels of meaning.

1069
01:26:13.000 --> 01:26:16.239
You can find that in most things. Right, if there's you know,

1070
01:26:16.359 --> 01:26:19.840
you think about this way, why
would particular words, Well, there's nothing

1071
01:26:19.920 --> 01:26:26.960
random about it. So if he's
capitalizing words, it's not random. I

1072
01:26:27.000 --> 01:26:32.159
mean something, there's a purpose.
The mystery here is figuring out what that

1073
01:26:32.600 --> 01:26:39.039
purpose is supposed to be. And
the answer to that that some would give

1074
01:26:39.159 --> 01:26:42.159
is that, well, if you
can't see it, you're not supposed to.

1075
01:26:44.560 --> 01:26:48.439
It will be obvious to those to
whom it's obvious. The rest of

1076
01:26:48.520 --> 01:26:55.119
us, it just looks chaotic.
It looks it looks random in some way,

1077
01:26:55.159 --> 01:26:59.119
but the moment is that it's not
random. Nothing like that is done

1078
01:26:59.199 --> 01:27:06.039
randomly, so it's and I think
there probably are some intelligence techniques in that

1079
01:27:06.279 --> 01:27:10.399
in a way. And you know, again you want if you want to

1080
01:27:10.439 --> 01:27:13.640
disguise things, one of the ways
you can do it is to make it

1081
01:27:13.680 --> 01:27:17.800
make something which is meaningful appear to
be meaningless, something which is calculated appear

1082
01:27:17.880 --> 01:27:21.319
to be random, so that no
one looking at it from the outside will

1083
01:27:21.359 --> 01:27:30.119
really understand what's going on when it
comes to his intelligence connections. Is intelligence

1084
01:27:30.159 --> 01:27:35.600
work. The thing the governing factor
that hangs over this is the Official Secrets

1085
01:27:35.600 --> 01:27:41.840
Act, which was actually fairly new. I think that comes in around nineteen

1086
01:27:41.960 --> 01:27:45.439
ten, nineteen eleven. But what
it means, and this is very real,

1087
01:27:45.680 --> 01:27:49.800
is that you never talk about this. I mean, you know,

1088
01:27:49.800 --> 01:27:53.439
it's like first rule of fight club. You never talk about fight club of

1089
01:27:53.520 --> 01:27:58.720
this thing. And that, by
the way, in not just British intelligence

1090
01:27:58.720 --> 01:28:05.159
elsewhere, is the single most important
factor. If you are told that you

1091
01:28:05.279 --> 01:28:11.159
never talk about these things, you
never talk about them, and if you

1092
01:28:11.319 --> 01:28:17.600
do, there will be very serious
consequences. And I think that that was

1093
01:28:17.960 --> 01:28:23.640
in fact One of the things that
you can kind of look at if you

1094
01:28:23.720 --> 01:28:26.840
go through is that there aren't these
kid in the press. For He'll say,

1095
01:28:29.560 --> 01:28:31.279
I think of the one of the
times he got closest is spilling the

1096
01:28:31.279 --> 01:28:36.720
beans was around nineteen twenty nine when
he's kicked out of France, and this

1097
01:28:36.960 --> 01:28:41.479
makes press around the world you can
even regret about in America. He's thrown

1098
01:28:41.479 --> 01:28:45.520
out of France and he and this
is when he comes back and he goes,

1099
01:28:45.600 --> 01:28:49.079
oh, you know I can I
you know, I work for British

1100
01:28:49.119 --> 01:28:54.800
Naval intelligence. He even implies he
has some connection to American intelligence, which

1101
01:28:55.680 --> 01:28:59.159
he did, and he actual and
then he mentions a name. He mentions

1102
01:28:59.199 --> 01:29:08.520
this particular official, Captain Guy Gaunt, and Gaunt was in fact the head

1103
01:29:08.520 --> 01:29:11.319
of naval intelligence in New York.
And now so he's a real that's the

1104
01:29:11.399 --> 01:29:15.359
guy, all right, that Guy
Gaunt. He had direct contact with Guy

1105
01:29:15.399 --> 01:29:18.079
Gott, knew him. And he
says at one point that I, you

1106
01:29:18.119 --> 01:29:21.520
know, if I'm drawn into court, he's basically threatening to take legal action

1107
01:29:21.640 --> 01:29:26.279
in France and to call Guy Gaunt
to come in and testify that he really

1108
01:29:26.439 --> 01:29:31.880
was working for British intelligence. Well
that's when sort of you know, the

1109
01:29:31.960 --> 01:29:36.960
crap hits the fan. So anytime
Crowley tends to look like he might open

1110
01:29:38.000 --> 01:29:43.880
his mouth a bit too much,
things happened to him. Yeah, okay.

1111
01:29:43.880 --> 01:29:45.039
And then, for instance, one
of the things that happens is he

1112
01:29:45.079 --> 01:29:48.720
does get called back to England.
He meets with his fellow you know,

1113
01:29:48.840 --> 01:29:51.880
Carter, who says that you know
it, basically tells him, look,

1114
01:29:51.880 --> 01:29:56.039
we need you to keep your mouth
shut. Well, we'll take care of

1115
01:29:56.119 --> 01:29:58.640
you. We're not going to bring
you. You can't come back to England

1116
01:29:59.720 --> 01:30:01.399
because you're still too hot here,
but we're going to send you to Berlin

1117
01:30:02.640 --> 01:30:05.640
and we're going to pay you.
This is one of the few places where

1118
01:30:05.640 --> 01:30:12.640
it's acknowledged that he's sent to Berlin
and he's paid something like fifty pounds a

1119
01:30:12.680 --> 01:30:17.000
month to live there and report on
what's going on. Berlin in nineteen thirty

1120
01:30:17.039 --> 01:30:20.680
and thirty two is a very interesting
place for a number of obvious reasons.

1121
01:30:21.359 --> 01:30:26.800
But that's what they do. They
come in tell him to shut up and

1122
01:30:26.840 --> 01:30:30.479
say we'll give you some money,
we'll send you off to Germany, but

1123
01:30:30.600 --> 01:30:38.479
you must keep your mouth shut.
And there's the question, is he's bankrupted

1124
01:30:38.600 --> 01:30:44.239
nineteen thirty four. The Nina Hamlet
case destroys Wes Bryans of his finances.

1125
01:30:45.319 --> 01:30:48.159
So what does he live on for
the rest of his life? Who pays

1126
01:30:48.199 --> 01:30:56.000
his bills? Who pays for the
little packet of heroin he gets from the

1127
01:30:56.039 --> 01:31:01.880
Harley Street pharmacist every week. Well, the answer to that, you consider

1128
01:31:01.960 --> 01:31:08.079
it is ultimately it's paid for by
His majesty. Okay, through the number

1129
01:31:08.119 --> 01:31:12.520
of particular cutouts in that way,
but that's part of the deal. Will

1130
01:31:12.640 --> 01:31:16.000
take care of you. Look,
we'll even provide you with a girlfriend.

1131
01:31:17.520 --> 01:31:23.159
So Pat Doherty shows up. I
don't think Pat Doherty was ever romantically interested

1132
01:31:23.199 --> 01:31:27.359
in him. I also doubt that
she ever actually had his child. I

1133
01:31:27.399 --> 01:31:32.720
think she had someone else's child,
Robin. That's who her actor or her

1134
01:31:32.840 --> 01:31:40.960
lover was. Who Robin Thine was
am I six? So she who does

1135
01:31:41.039 --> 01:31:45.359
Pat Doherty go to work for during
World War two? British Intelligence? The

1136
01:31:45.399 --> 01:31:48.840
same as Curly. They're all in
this together. So they send in a

1137
01:31:48.920 --> 01:31:53.680
controller. In this case, they
send in Thine and his girlfriend. She

1138
01:31:54.000 --> 01:31:57.359
romances Curly. She takes care of
the old guy, does the rest for

1139
01:31:57.479 --> 01:32:00.800
it, but she's essentially there to
watch over him and to make sure that

1140
01:32:00.880 --> 01:32:08.199
he behaves himself well. And so
the reason that I bring this up the

1141
01:32:08.359 --> 01:32:12.960
Vision and Voice, is because you
had mentioned the act being in nineteen eleven,

1142
01:32:13.000 --> 01:32:15.680
and that is exactly the same year
the Vision and Voice was published.

1143
01:32:15.359 --> 01:32:19.800
And so I wondered if that was
like a to British intelligence, like,

1144
01:32:20.720 --> 01:32:25.039
you know, I have this information, I've coded it, I'm putting it

1145
01:32:25.119 --> 01:32:29.239
out there kind of like a daunte
because he almost seemed like the biggest troller.

1146
01:32:29.960 --> 01:32:33.920
Really he was the biggest troll,
and so it almost seems like this

1147
01:32:34.199 --> 01:32:40.680
was his you know, way of
doing that. These are my my theories

1148
01:32:40.760 --> 01:32:45.560
that have no substance. There's a
dance going on between them. I mean,

1149
01:32:45.640 --> 01:32:48.239
he had information that had he gone
public, well, they could have

1150
01:32:48.279 --> 01:32:55.680
been embarrassing. Probably not much more
than that. I mean, one of

1151
01:32:55.760 --> 01:32:58.720
the things that he could have spilled
the beings on was the degree to which

1152
01:32:58.760 --> 01:33:03.479
British intelligence spy on the Americans during
World War One as well, and which

1153
01:33:03.560 --> 01:33:11.479
they did. I mean, no
one is fair game from that. Yeah.

1154
01:33:11.520 --> 01:33:15.800
The another guy I've one of my
other unhealthy interests is the fellow who

1155
01:33:15.840 --> 01:33:20.479
was actually the head of what we
would think of as a parallel British Agency

1156
01:33:20.600 --> 01:33:24.279
m I six in New York.
In that period, it is Sir William

1157
01:33:24.359 --> 01:33:33.199
Wiseman and Wiseman in writing about British
intelligence activities in neutral America through the war

1158
01:33:33.279 --> 01:33:38.079
and even after the war begins when
they become allies. You know, he's

1159
01:33:38.119 --> 01:33:42.880
writing to his superiors, writing to
Mansfield coming back in London, who's the

1160
01:33:42.920 --> 01:33:45.880
head of the whole shebang, and
says, you know, the Americans are

1161
01:33:45.960 --> 01:33:49.039
allies, but they don't know all
of what we've done, and they never

1162
01:33:49.239 --> 01:33:55.439
will know. So there are allies, but we carry on things that are

1163
01:33:55.479 --> 01:34:02.079
completely secret from them. And in
fact, at one point Wiseman actually moves

1164
01:34:02.680 --> 01:34:08.680
nominally away from the head of the
SIS station, places it in the hands

1165
01:34:08.720 --> 01:34:14.560
of his subordinate, and then forms
a separate secret organization that the Americans will

1166
01:34:14.640 --> 01:34:20.199
know nothing about, so that there
is a kind of you know, Wiseman

1167
01:34:20.319 --> 01:34:28.159
controls his own intelligence cell which is
separate from the main one. And so

1168
01:34:28.279 --> 01:34:31.159
what's he doing? What was the
whole purpose? You know, something something

1169
01:34:31.199 --> 01:34:36.199
that the Yankees weren't supposed to ever
know about. And if Crawley had any

1170
01:34:36.279 --> 01:34:43.000
kind of knowledge of those things,
well that could be you know, embarrassing,

1171
01:34:43.199 --> 01:34:46.560
that could cause those kind of and
that maybe that's one of the things

1172
01:34:46.560 --> 01:34:50.920
that he sort of has in his
arsenal, because he could one day just

1173
01:34:50.960 --> 01:34:57.880
decide to take those consequences, and
you know, and those consequences might be

1174
01:34:58.039 --> 01:35:00.880
that he would be cut off without
any money and completely ostracize and the worst

1175
01:35:00.880 --> 01:35:05.760
place they'd kill it. But if
you're willing to take that chance, he

1176
01:35:05.800 --> 01:35:13.000
could do it. And they know
that. That's my argument would be,

1177
01:35:13.720 --> 01:35:17.920
and that's why again in twenty nine, they would pull him back, give

1178
01:35:18.039 --> 01:35:23.920
him money, give him another assignment, just keep him. But his whole

1179
01:35:23.960 --> 01:35:27.199
complaint was that, you know,
they just feed him enough to keep him

1180
01:35:27.239 --> 01:35:31.199
from starving. They would never really
his view, I think was was of

1181
01:35:31.319 --> 01:35:35.359
immense ingratitude for what it was that
he'd done. He could never publicly take

1182
01:35:35.439 --> 01:35:41.119
credit for this because his view was
that, you know, I served the

1183
01:35:41.199 --> 01:35:44.520
Crown, I actually did these things
when I can, but I can never

1184
01:35:44.640 --> 01:35:48.079
talk about them. I can never
publicly acknowledge about them, and instead I

1185
01:35:48.239 --> 01:35:51.640
have to live the rest of my
life being looked upon as a semi trader

1186
01:35:51.880 --> 01:35:57.279
or as an outright trader for what
I did, which isn't true, and

1187
01:35:57.439 --> 01:36:02.760
I can never take credit for that, and giving me anything to compensate for

1188
01:36:02.880 --> 01:36:08.800
it, right, he would.
His basic view was that he'd been screwed,

1189
01:36:09.640 --> 01:36:13.520
and he had because that's what intelligence
agencies will do to you. So

1190
01:36:13.560 --> 01:36:15.039
there's a couple of things in your
book that made me think that there's a

1191
01:36:16.199 --> 01:36:19.399
and I know it sounds like a
cliche to use this word, but the

1192
01:36:19.560 --> 01:36:27.880
word is Illuminati because you have this
inglestat connection with Eckerthausen, You have this

1193
01:36:28.439 --> 01:36:32.479
idea of the of this Jesuit uh
influence. And then and then when you

1194
01:36:32.560 --> 01:36:38.439
go into what happened with Mathers,
I mean, at one point you're talking

1195
01:36:38.439 --> 01:36:44.399
about Yates not wanting him to even
be uh initiated, right, foreign Yates

1196
01:36:44.439 --> 01:36:47.359
don't want him initiated, so he
rushes over to mather to Mathers and has

1197
01:36:47.399 --> 01:36:50.880
him initial has him initiate him,
and then they go try to storm the

1198
01:36:50.920 --> 01:36:57.520
castle basically, and it ends up
getting him and Mathers basically kicked out of

1199
01:36:57.600 --> 01:37:01.239
the order. And then, I
mean you could think of it as being

1200
01:37:01.279 --> 01:37:05.239
effectively what he wanted to have happened
was a goldenn who dispersed. But this

1201
01:37:05.359 --> 01:37:11.760
whole Jacobite element that they're saying is
part of Mathers, Well, that would

1202
01:37:11.760 --> 01:37:17.119
have been part of the the uh, the Illuminati quote quote unquote English thing

1203
01:37:17.199 --> 01:37:23.199
too, because they fomented the French
the French Revolution. I mean, that's

1204
01:37:23.279 --> 01:37:27.600
that's who those guys were. So
it's kind of interesting that it makes me

1205
01:37:27.680 --> 01:37:29.840
think that he's wrapped up in it
in a different way too, and that

1206
01:37:30.000 --> 01:37:32.760
might be the reason why throughout his
life he was getting in some sort of

1207
01:37:33.439 --> 01:37:38.359
you know, I don't know what
you would call that, a little a

1208
01:37:38.359 --> 01:37:42.720
little bit of a pension, I
guess because he's, uh, he's got

1209
01:37:42.760 --> 01:37:45.159
some he's got some connections. He
has a perfect uh pedigree for it,

1210
01:37:45.279 --> 01:37:49.680
being being from an elite family that
has a perfect cover. They are Francis,

1211
01:37:49.760 --> 01:37:53.520
and so are freaking most of the
people in the UH, in the

1212
01:37:53.680 --> 01:37:57.439
orders, in the Illuminati, because
once once that connection happened in the seventeen

1213
01:37:57.479 --> 01:38:00.199
eighties, there there was no there's
not really of a difference between the Jesuit

1214
01:38:00.239 --> 01:38:04.399
and the Francas at that point,
and it just it just it all kind

1215
01:38:04.439 --> 01:38:08.640
of makes too much sense that there
was something else going on there and why

1216
01:38:08.720 --> 01:38:12.680
he would be involved in so many
of these lodges too, because I think

1217
01:38:12.720 --> 01:38:17.399
he was old blood in a sense. It could be yeah, yeah,

1218
01:38:17.399 --> 01:38:20.760
I mean that that's not a that's
not a definite answer, because I don't

1219
01:38:20.760 --> 01:38:26.359
think there is a definite answer,
right, Yeah. The thing you have

1220
01:38:26.479 --> 01:38:30.319
to do, I think the other
side of not pushing your narrative too far,

1221
01:38:30.520 --> 01:38:38.119
not not believing your own bullshit to
a degree, is always keeping mind

1222
01:38:38.159 --> 01:38:44.399
that what you're dealing with here is
simply a realm of possibilities. Yeah.

1223
01:38:44.439 --> 01:38:47.399
But I missions they're kind of interesting
because of these type of elements that we're

1224
01:38:47.399 --> 01:38:50.359
trying to place a finger on,
like why was he getting this money?

1225
01:38:50.479 --> 01:38:54.439
You know, and like other reasons
like why was he in these lodges if

1226
01:38:54.479 --> 01:38:59.800
you had a you know, a
the whole, the whole, the family

1227
01:38:59.840 --> 01:39:03.479
thing is what really gets me is
what the brethrens are really about. What

1228
01:39:03.800 --> 01:39:10.479
was he to begin with? Right
exactly? So he presumably the place he

1229
01:39:10.560 --> 01:39:16.119
would have been recruited or he would
have been spotted, was it Cambridge when

1230
01:39:16.199 --> 01:39:19.720
he was in college? Yea,
And because that's the usual, I mean

1231
01:39:20.520 --> 01:39:25.560
Oxford and Cambridge were the you know, that was the finishing schools for the

1232
01:39:25.600 --> 01:39:27.840
British elite. I mean that's you
know, his whole idea. He was

1233
01:39:27.840 --> 01:39:30.840
going to go there, and he
was going to go into the diplomatic service.

1234
01:39:31.680 --> 01:39:38.680
And but there was one of the
jobs, one of the auxiliary jobs

1235
01:39:38.800 --> 01:39:42.840
of faculty and other people, was
to keep an eye out for people who

1236
01:39:43.359 --> 01:39:46.439
could be useful in other areas.
And this, you know, this,

1237
01:39:46.760 --> 01:39:54.880
this is going back to a period
when British intelligence as we know it now

1238
01:39:55.279 --> 01:40:00.479
was, it was in a much
more amorphous form. I mean six really

1239
01:40:00.560 --> 01:40:05.840
don't come along until nineteen oh nine, so they're not around in nineteen hundred,

1240
01:40:05.880 --> 01:40:11.199
they're not around in nineteen ninety.
What you had were things like well,

1241
01:40:11.720 --> 01:40:18.760
you know, every the Foreign Office
ran intelligence operations, the War Office

1242
01:40:18.800 --> 01:40:27.920
did, Naval intelligence did as well, but they were much less institutionalized they

1243
01:40:27.960 --> 01:40:32.319
were later on, but it was
there. I mean, there's always spying

1244
01:40:32.479 --> 01:40:35.479
which is taking place, and there's
always a lookout for people who were capable

1245
01:40:35.560 --> 01:40:40.159
for it. So what you would
be doing is, you know, one

1246
01:40:40.199 --> 01:40:44.600
of the guys you know, a
couple of generations later, you know,

1247
01:40:45.640 --> 01:40:50.800
right under John Leacarey. We'll talk
about how he's recruited in university's always almost

1248
01:40:50.800 --> 01:41:00.239
always in university, and you know
what you're sort of looking for our people

1249
01:41:00.239 --> 01:41:08.199
who have what it could be called
a a flexible view of things. Because

1250
01:41:08.399 --> 01:41:10.920
one of the things that we'll first
have to be explained to you if you're

1251
01:41:10.920 --> 01:41:13.079
going to go into that work is
you're going to have to be prepared to

1252
01:41:13.119 --> 01:41:15.119
do things. One of the first
things you're gonna have to prepare to lie

1253
01:41:16.359 --> 01:41:21.560
a lot. Everyone live a law
will begin with the fact that you can

1254
01:41:21.600 --> 01:41:25.319
never really talk about what it is
that you do, so you'll have to.

1255
01:41:25.680 --> 01:41:28.600
So you must lie, and if
necessary, you have to be willing

1256
01:41:28.680 --> 01:41:32.239
to kill. And you can't get
a lot of qualms about that point.

1257
01:41:32.359 --> 01:41:35.159
So when it comes up you you
know, we don't want any sort of

1258
01:41:35.279 --> 01:41:45.199
conscience gonna be an on this.
And through a you know, part of

1259
01:41:45.239 --> 01:41:49.199
the whole sort of you know,
the tutoring process at universities, much of

1260
01:41:49.279 --> 01:41:56.319
it was kind of one on one. People would get to know you very

1261
01:41:56.439 --> 01:41:58.439
well, and one one of the
person you know put it is that,

1262
01:41:58.520 --> 01:42:01.840
you know, the typical sort of
came undergraduate experience was it was as much

1263
01:42:01.880 --> 01:42:10.720
a kind of psychoanalysis as it was
education. That's how they wow, can

1264
01:42:10.800 --> 01:42:14.319
you everybody else do that? Or
is it just me? Exactly? You're

1265
01:42:14.319 --> 01:42:18.199
crazy? All right? So that
other the other thing that is related to

1266
01:42:18.279 --> 01:42:23.000
what you're talking about, with this
one on one the minerval of the Minerva

1267
01:42:23.439 --> 01:42:28.880
in the they weren't even they didn't
even know the name of their of their

1268
01:42:28.960 --> 01:42:31.800
organization, but it was when Whyslop
was in control of this, they would

1269
01:42:31.840 --> 01:42:38.239
only have one contact throughout their entire
you know, maneerval period which could last

1270
01:42:38.319 --> 01:42:41.479
up to three or three to five
years, and they wouldn't know anybody else

1271
01:42:41.479 --> 01:42:44.399
who was also in the order.
So this kind of is like that same

1272
01:42:44.479 --> 01:42:49.520
isolation thing where that's like basically it's
a time period where they're analyzing. Like

1273
01:42:49.640 --> 01:42:53.680
even when they went to study up
on the thing, they could only read

1274
01:42:53.800 --> 01:42:57.039
at that mentor's house. They couldn't
take anything with them, and they couldn't

1275
01:42:57.039 --> 01:43:00.680
write anything down, but they would
have to produce a for them based on

1276
01:43:00.760 --> 01:43:04.840
what they learned, and then they
would assess what they interpreted this stuff to

1277
01:43:04.960 --> 01:43:09.239
me to see whether or not they
were, you know, of use and

1278
01:43:09.399 --> 01:43:11.880
if they were the right type of
mindset for what they were looking for.

1279
01:43:12.279 --> 01:43:15.840
But this would go on for like
years, and this was this whole isolation

1280
01:43:15.960 --> 01:43:17.920
type of thing where they were doing
this with people. It's very similar to

1281
01:43:18.000 --> 01:43:23.079
psychoanalysis that you're talking about, Like
with the Cambridge thing. It's they have

1282
01:43:23.239 --> 01:43:26.920
the same structure. And I think
universities have been using you know, like

1283
01:43:27.000 --> 01:43:29.600
you said, like the fraternities and
things like that for a very long time

1284
01:43:29.640 --> 01:43:31.800
for that very reason. I think
probably I don't know, I don't know

1285
01:43:31.880 --> 01:43:35.119
what predates what, but there they
seem to be hand in hand with these

1286
01:43:35.199 --> 01:43:44.159
lodges. Well, there are things
that to add in a certain element of

1287
01:43:44.239 --> 01:43:48.199
personal experience in this. When I
was in grad school at U see Santa

1288
01:43:48.279 --> 01:43:53.399
Barbara, I was, I was
actually in a The thing I was in

1289
01:43:53.479 --> 01:43:57.399
with in the history department was then
called the Balkan Studies Program, So it

1290
01:43:57.479 --> 01:44:00.640
wasn't a Russian studies program, but
the closest we had the ball So that

1291
01:44:00.800 --> 01:44:03.720
just covered all of Eastern Europe.
So we're in that, and so the

1292
01:44:03.800 --> 01:44:08.119
Bulkans, you know, my main
professor was a Yugoslav, you know,

1293
01:44:08.319 --> 01:44:13.960
and it was an anti communist Serbian
emigray who had come over and gotten a

1294
01:44:14.079 --> 01:44:17.760
job. And you know, you
found lots of Eastern European anti communist emmigreys

1295
01:44:17.760 --> 01:44:21.920
around things like that. Who else
are you going to come across? So

1296
01:44:23.199 --> 01:44:30.520
keep in mind this is the nineteen
seventies, late Cold War and you've got

1297
01:44:30.680 --> 01:44:35.760
I think, which specializes in training
people in the history of what was then

1298
01:44:38.319 --> 01:44:42.840
Iron Curtain countries. So the whole
concept was that if you really get into

1299
01:44:42.880 --> 01:44:45.479
Bulgarian history, then at some point
you're going to go to Bulgaria. Right,

1300
01:44:45.640 --> 01:44:51.039
this is the kind of idea.
Who would possibly be interested in that,

1301
01:44:51.319 --> 01:44:55.119
who would be interested in the people
who were interested in that field,

1302
01:44:56.039 --> 01:45:01.399
who could possibly see any kind of
future utilitary value, and someone who would

1303
01:45:01.439 --> 01:45:09.880
want to go and travel and observe
in the Eastern block. Right, can

1304
01:45:09.960 --> 01:45:12.479
narrow that down to three little letters, and I'll leave it to you to

1305
01:45:12.520 --> 01:45:15.000
guess which ones they are. Now. I got to admit, when I

1306
01:45:15.159 --> 01:45:18.359
was there at the time, although
we were aware of all of those things,

1307
01:45:18.760 --> 01:45:24.960
it never really occurred to me that
that was kind of going on around

1308
01:45:25.039 --> 01:45:32.239
me. And it was, you
know, it was just sort of oblivious

1309
01:45:32.279 --> 01:45:38.000
to it in some way. And
it was only many years later in the

1310
01:45:38.079 --> 01:45:43.760
whole set of circumstances. Excuse me
that someone who was there at the same

1311
01:45:43.800 --> 01:45:45.359
time, and they go, well, you know who the CIA spotter was,

1312
01:45:45.479 --> 01:45:50.600
right, I go, No,
I don't think, so they go,

1313
01:45:50.760 --> 01:45:54.159
and I'm not going to use the
person's name. I don't think they're

1314
01:45:54.159 --> 01:45:59.880
around anymore. But it was suffice
to say it was a retired military off

1315
01:46:00.000 --> 01:46:05.760
officer who was kind of there taking
a degree but never really seemed to finish

1316
01:46:05.880 --> 01:46:11.479
one. And it was a very
friendly and nice guy and was always asking

1317
01:46:11.640 --> 01:46:15.000
lots of questions about what you're interested
in in the arrest and then it was

1318
01:46:15.159 --> 01:46:23.720
like, yeah, that was it. So that's why he invited his to

1319
01:46:23.800 --> 01:46:28.560
parties at his household. Oh yeah, and it was. And I don't

1320
01:46:28.560 --> 01:46:31.560
know, they didn't recruit me.
It's a mother, but that yes,

1321
01:46:31.680 --> 01:46:36.119
And it would it would be obvious
that that was going on and there was

1322
01:46:36.199 --> 01:46:41.640
someone who was there it was doing
it. But unless you were paying attention

1323
01:46:41.760 --> 01:46:46.800
at the time, it was just
this guy the other things that are taking

1324
01:46:46.880 --> 01:46:53.039
place. Sometimes I think people think
like we popped out as conspiracy theorists.

1325
01:46:53.039 --> 01:46:55.800
It's like, no, when I
was like eighteen nineteen twenty, I wasn't

1326
01:46:55.800 --> 01:46:59.119
thinking I don't worry about the CIA
then, right, you know what I'm

1327
01:46:59.159 --> 01:47:01.880
saying, Yeah, you're in another
world. You're thinking about school and ass

1328
01:47:02.279 --> 01:47:05.840
I had a healthy just taste for
the for government because I always messed around

1329
01:47:05.840 --> 01:47:09.640
with a lot of officials by a
lot of officials who carry badges. But

1330
01:47:10.760 --> 01:47:15.039
as far as you know, going
too deep into anything, I definitely had

1331
01:47:15.159 --> 01:47:17.399
like a moment in twenty eleven where
I think that I actually started like to

1332
01:47:17.520 --> 01:47:23.800
really like impact me to where I
couldn't I couldn't ignore it if I wanted

1333
01:47:23.840 --> 01:47:27.560
to. So it's kind of interesting. But we are almost at the two

1334
01:47:27.640 --> 01:47:31.159
hour mark. Rick, you say
that you are working on some new projects.

1335
01:47:31.319 --> 01:47:36.439
Are they books? Are they blogs? Like we see? Can I

1336
01:47:36.640 --> 01:47:41.840
can? I? Can I do
my shameless self promotion? Now? I

1337
01:47:41.960 --> 01:47:45.600
don't have to, but you know
that doesn't really come naturally to me,

1338
01:47:45.680 --> 01:47:48.359
so I have to think about it
as well. All right, shameless self

1339
01:47:48.359 --> 01:47:53.560
promotion, Well, there are the
books, okay, which you don't make

1340
01:47:53.560 --> 01:47:57.079
any money off of book, so
it's not too shameless. Secret Age at

1341
01:47:57.119 --> 01:48:02.560
sixty sixty six, my biography of
Sydney Riley, Trust No. One.

1342
01:48:03.600 --> 01:48:10.920
My least favorite of my books and
the most recent is Wall Street and the

1343
01:48:11.000 --> 01:48:17.159
Russian Revolution, which, if you're
skullduggery that sounds like Anthony Sutton type it

1344
01:48:17.279 --> 01:48:24.159
is. It is my sort of
my take off from from Anthony Sutton,

1345
01:48:24.439 --> 01:48:27.800
and I wanted to stay very close. But it's not the Bolshevik Revolution it's

1346
01:48:27.840 --> 01:48:32.359
the Russian Revolution. And I would
say the book is not a refutation of

1347
01:48:32.399 --> 01:48:35.159
something, it's an expansion of everything
he was working out, and I think

1348
01:48:35.359 --> 01:48:44.399
a clarification in that regard. And
I also my first book I ever wrote

1349
01:48:44.439 --> 01:48:47.319
was a biography of an obscure Russian
Revolution area that everybody should know about.

1350
01:48:47.319 --> 01:48:50.840
They don't by the name of Forres
savan Kov. But if you want to

1351
01:48:50.920 --> 01:48:56.119
understand how I got started on this
whole dark path, that would be one

1352
01:48:56.199 --> 01:49:01.680
place it would begin. But since
then, there are the books, if

1353
01:49:01.720 --> 01:49:05.319
anybody wan looks for them, there
are there are lots of articles which are

1354
01:49:05.319 --> 01:49:12.720
floating around about things and uh in
everything from journals like American Communist History.

1355
01:49:13.119 --> 01:49:15.520
No, you don't have to be
a communist, but you can be.

1356
01:49:15.399 --> 01:49:21.039
Uh, it's about the history of
the party. Uh, to Intelligence and

1357
01:49:21.119 --> 01:49:27.279
National Security Journal of Intelligence and Counter
Intelligence. You know, just google my

1358
01:49:27.399 --> 01:49:30.840
name and you'll you'll find them out
there. But what I've been working on,

1359
01:49:30.000 --> 01:49:35.239
what I really want to plug,
which actually does make some money,

1360
01:49:35.439 --> 01:49:42.600
are work that I've done video series
for Wonderum or the Great Courses. So

1361
01:49:43.000 --> 01:49:50.039
again you can look under Great Courses
or their new corporate name Wondrium and I

1362
01:49:50.279 --> 01:49:55.239
have done three courses to date for
them. They're cold courses. They're basically

1363
01:49:55.359 --> 01:50:00.199
series. It's you know, me
sitting around talking with visuals. Well,

1364
01:50:00.319 --> 01:50:04.279
this is one. I'm in this
one. It's not my particular. There's

1365
01:50:04.439 --> 01:50:13.000
the Real History of Secret Societies,
there is Crimes of the Century, and

1366
01:50:13.640 --> 01:50:17.000
there are Secrets of the Occult.
I am currently working on one that deals

1367
01:50:17.119 --> 01:50:21.680
with great Villains of History, or
at least villains. And then there are

1368
01:50:21.720 --> 01:50:28.479
the two other series of Secret World
of Espionage and The Decoding True Crime.

1369
01:50:29.720 --> 01:50:33.279
So that is that is my ouvra
of work, I guess for great courses.

1370
01:50:36.479 --> 01:50:41.760
Yeah, so I would plug those. Real History Secret Societies was done

1371
01:50:42.760 --> 01:50:46.600
in sort of collaboration with History Channel
and A and E. So he has

1372
01:50:46.680 --> 01:50:55.079
slightly higher production values for that reason. But I'm happy with all of them.

1373
01:50:56.239 --> 01:50:59.600
And I think if you're interested in
them. Now, for someone something

1374
01:50:59.640 --> 01:51:03.800
like SS of the Occult, if
you are well versed in occultism, it's

1375
01:51:04.000 --> 01:51:09.039
likely to be occultism one on one. Okay, so it deals with some

1376
01:51:09.439 --> 01:51:13.119
you know, you've got twenty four
episodes, but you're trying to discuss a

1377
01:51:13.239 --> 01:51:19.560
topic which is complicated, right,
nuanced, and also keep in mind you

1378
01:51:19.720 --> 01:51:25.720
have to do that in each episode
in thirty minutes. So this is the

1379
01:51:25.840 --> 01:51:29.840
idea. We're going to talk about
rituals. Okay, I got thirty minutes

1380
01:51:29.880 --> 01:51:32.199
to do that. So what kind
of examples are going to have? So

1381
01:51:32.319 --> 01:51:35.720
there's a lot of things that tend
to be left on the cutting room floor,

1382
01:51:38.000 --> 01:51:41.720
some interesting ones, but I think
it. You know, I've gotten

1383
01:51:41.800 --> 01:51:50.840
good, good feedback on that as
well. I've also done some uh you

1384
01:51:50.920 --> 01:51:56.119
know, I have my fingers in
the pies of various sort of movie or

1385
01:51:57.199 --> 01:52:00.680
TV thing which if they ever come
to Fruition then we'll tell talk about those.

1386
01:52:00.520 --> 01:52:04.680
Very cool but one of the one
of my one of my favorite things

1387
01:52:04.720 --> 01:52:08.319
that I keep trying and I'll just
bring this up and hope that someone will

1388
01:52:08.319 --> 01:52:14.000
hear about it and they'll be interested
enough to produce it. It would be

1389
01:52:14.119 --> 01:52:21.800
a series called Flying Saucers and Secret
Agents, so which deals much more.

1390
01:52:21.880 --> 01:52:26.600
It's not about aliens in that sense
as it is about you know, our

1391
01:52:26.880 --> 01:52:34.000
three letter agency friends and yeah,
faking things for the most part. That's

1392
01:52:34.039 --> 01:52:36.760
just you know, some things are
real, some things they're not either.

1393
01:52:40.479 --> 01:52:44.039
That's one of those things that I
would that would be sort of my favorite

1394
01:52:44.079 --> 01:52:45.520
thing. To do if I could, but you don't always get to do

1395
01:52:45.640 --> 01:52:50.359
that. Very cool, and we'd
love to have you back on again too,

1396
01:52:50.479 --> 01:52:57.199
because I talked and there's still still
a lot more that I would have

1397
01:52:57.359 --> 01:53:00.159
to ask myself, Chris, I'm
sure you guys have more questions too.

1398
01:53:00.960 --> 01:53:02.279
It was I held back saying I
didn't want to take them the show.

1399
01:53:03.079 --> 01:53:05.479
Yeah, it was really good,
A lot of good stuff, I really

1400
01:53:05.600 --> 01:53:10.359
very much. You know, maybe
next time we can talk about, you

1401
01:53:10.399 --> 01:53:19.960
know, Jack Parsons. Why I
think Jack Parsons was a spot the old

1402
01:53:20.680 --> 01:53:25.960
Ron Hubbard and clear I think I
think I think al Ron Hubbard was as

1403
01:53:26.000 --> 01:53:33.520
well. So there times they are
you know, so all right that iconic

1404
01:53:33.640 --> 01:53:39.439
picture of Parsons holding what looks like
a coffee can with a wire on it,

1405
01:53:39.520 --> 01:53:42.239
it's just so ridiculous, like oh
that makes things why It's like,

1406
01:53:42.319 --> 01:53:47.840
come on, guys, uh too
funny and uh, I guess we would

1407
01:53:47.840 --> 01:53:50.239
have to address the question. And
did he in fact have sex with his

1408
01:53:50.359 --> 01:53:55.600
dog and his mother? His mother? Probably his dog, I know know,

1409
01:53:56.600 --> 01:54:00.399
dog's not telling dog exact the mother, you know, she and her

1410
01:54:00.439 --> 01:54:03.920
some they were close. Very is
here again, this is what you can

1411
01:54:04.000 --> 01:54:12.920
say they had it abnormally close relationship. How that seems to be a roughly

1412
01:54:13.000 --> 01:54:17.279
factual statement. How abnormally that's a
matter of opinion, it's a matter of

1413
01:54:17.319 --> 01:54:26.079
conjecture. Really yeah, uh,
around the table real quick and just anyone

1414
01:54:26.159 --> 01:54:30.520
any final thoughts, questions real quick
and then no, no. I thought

1415
01:54:30.560 --> 01:54:32.880
that was really great. I really
would like to actually get more into probably

1416
01:54:32.960 --> 01:54:36.640
Parsons and and Harvard, and I
think there's a lot of good one for

1417
01:54:36.800 --> 01:54:42.720
sure. Even if we could venture
into like I don't know what we how

1418
01:54:42.800 --> 01:54:45.159
much we all have that I would
do some research on this myself. But

1419
01:54:45.359 --> 01:54:48.920
like the jumping off point there with
Hubbard with scientology and then the processed church

1420
01:54:49.000 --> 01:54:54.600
that would be interesting and the four
four P or four pie coult Yeah,

1421
01:54:55.119 --> 01:55:02.319
yeah there, but yeah, definitely
all right, Well, thank you so

1422
01:55:02.439 --> 01:55:06.359
much, sir. I really appreciate
your time. Get all your links into

1423
01:55:06.439 --> 01:55:11.840
the yes, and hopefully we'll talk
again. Yeah, this is a lot

1424
01:55:11.880 --> 01:55:15.319
of fun. Thank you so much. Bye, bye bye, And we

1425
01:55:15.439 --> 01:55:15.800
were out.