And we are live. Hello everyone out there in Twitter, which I refuse
to call X, Facebook and Rumble the only places I'm allowed to actually talk
really, because YouTube reminds me on a very fairly constant basis that I'm not
supposed to do things there. I'm to here with today today with the Occult
rejects Lisa and Nick, and our special guest today is doctor Rick Richard Spence,
the author of Secret Agent sixty six six Alistair Crowley, British Intelligence and
I forgot the last part of the in the occult Yes India Cult. So
doctor Spence or Rick, tell us little bit about yourself, what your background
is. I know the book was out in twenty two thousand and eight.
I'm not sure if there's any been any updates or anything like that, but
just give us a little story. What you do, how you came about
this wire while you were interested in it and stuff like that. Okay,
who am I? Why should you pay any attention to anything that I say?
As well as I was saying before we went live For anybody who's wondering,
I am a genuine academic, so I actually have a real degree from
a real university, and I need to point that out, because there are
unreal degrees from unreal universities. So what am I taught at the University of
Idaho here in beautiful Moscow, Idaho, or I am now and it's springlike
weather for the time being. Beginning in nineteen eighty six, so I taught
for thirty four years. I retired in twenty twenty, which seemed to be
an opportune time. Since retirement, I've been involving myself in various writing and
other projects. And we might talk more about those, or we don't.
That's not a big deal in and of itself. And prior to that,
what was my academic background? I got my master's and PhD, the thing
that really counts from the University of California at Santa Barbara, which is not
the University of California surfing branch, as people point out there at that in
nineteen eighty one, most of my real sort of you know, the academic
I started out really as interested in modern Russian history. So academically that's kind
of my thing. But what do you find out, especially, you know,
if you're curious, if you have any kind of imagination, which a
lot of people in academia don't ranklickly. You find that one thing leads you
to another. I mean, people ask me, how did you get interested
in Crowley or how did you get interested in secret societies or occultism and the
rest of this, And I did, just didn't wake up one morning and
I was interested in it. It was because I had been interested in something
else, and through one thing I was led to another. Think of it
as the process of enlightenment or disenlightenmented, or however you want to see that.
So when you deal with modern Russian history, you deal with the Russian
Revolution. And if you deal with the Russian Revolution, you deal with what
else. You don't have revolutions without conspiracies and secrecy, secret societies, which
revolutionary movements are. And so that's where. And also espionage was something else
that I'm you know, I'm always kind of hunting spies in one form or
another. And my wife accuses me that I now think everyone is a spy,
which is not true almost everyone, but not entirely. So you get
interested in espionage, and then you find out the links between espionage and occultism.
This this kind of symbiotic relationship between the two and various other let's say,
clandestine organizations, all those things that exist in the dark, the historical
dark, the shadows of history. So I would say that that kind of
turned my interests away from what might be sort of standard political, diplomatic,
or economic history, although I'm interested in all of those two. The kind
of shadow areas of history, or literally the history that isn't written about,
the stuff that gets left out usually because it's inconvenient or inconclusive, it raises
more. You know, we like to have our stories come together, that's
the whole thing. So one of the things that as an historian that struck
me is that you hear this whole thing about, you know, story history
being something which is it's written by the victors, which it absolutely is.
So you never get the whole story that there's no giant book somewhere in which
you know, there's a giant black book somewhere they you know, in a
giant underground library that records everything that ever happened. Sounds like that that this
is some of the ways that the people think what historians do. The historians
just read from the book. We pull up the book and we just read,
We just spense knowledge from it. Now there isn't any book. What
historians do is they make up history. That is, they try to come
up with a narrative to explain what happened, because really we don't have a
lot in the way of definite facts about things. So I'll give you an
example. Everybody, I think can agree another maybe a few who don't,
but I think pretty much everyone can agree that World War II, something that
we describe as the Second World War happened. Now we can quibble about the
beginning thirty seven or thirty nine or where it was. That kind of varies,
you know, from one country to another. But the Second World War
happened. And by the way, by calling at the Second World War,
we're also acknowledging that a First World War happened. But that's another story.
So world War two happened. That's a fact. And then you can come
up with other ones. You can come up with, you know, the
rough number of people killed, the number of times. You know, you
can you can come up with a kind of mathematical list of things that are
connected with that. You can find Kievan. There was a Battle of Stalingrad.
There was a Battle of Guadalcanal that took place between such and such a
time. But when you get to the key question, the really important question
of why World War two happened, Well, that's not a fact. There
are no facts about that. There are only opinions. So most of what
we regard as an historical narrative is a story, a kind of script,
which has been composed to incorporate and explain the facts that we have. So
we had this war, here is why it happened, and so you're now
creating a story around that. Now that story could be very very accurate,
it may be correct, or it could be wildly off base. But whatever
the case, what you'll generally find is if you take any particular kind of
historical event, whether it's World War two, the Russian Revolution, American Revolution,
or whatever, you can take the known facts such as they are,
and you can create different narratives to explain them. That is, you can
embed them in a matrix of a different story, so you can make it
come out different ways. And the thing is that if you do it well,
they're all more or less plausible. So then you're left with the question
is that, well, since I can come up with different explanations for this,
which one is correct some Again, maybe entirely correct. Usually you'll find
that some are probably more accurate than others, but none are completely accurate because
we can't go back and explain the past. You can't do that. Yeah,
it's because nobody ever understood what was happening at the time. So again,
an example, you've probably been in a situation, or you may have
been somewhere and other people, your friends may have been there, and you
both think that you're sort of looking at the same thing. You think that
you've experienced the same event, but between yourselves or if you're you know,
questioned by the police, for instance, there would be variations in your experience,
so it would turn out that you didn't exactly experience the same thing.
Now, that doesn't mean that one of your experiences really is real and everyone
else is is false. It just means that you're sort of in your own
sort of reality. In this case, I think maybe one of the best
way was ever put to me was by one of my freshlers has said,
is that really you only get half of history at best, because what people
see, what we all see, is what's in front of us, and
that can be the same time, there's a whole other half of the world
which is happening behind us and we're not looking at it. So two people
in the same place, at the same time, at the same event,
facing in two different directions will not have the same experience. One isn't more
true than the other one. They're just different in that case. So that's
one of the things I think you have to understand. And to me,
this actually, you know, it doesn't ruin history. It makes it more
interesting. It's it's fluid, it's it's malleable. It's this thing which is
kind of constantly changing because we never have the real thing to begin with.
It's always sort of inventing and reinventing itself over and over again. We don't
know what happened, but we always have to search to figure out hopefully what
did. That's interesting too, because it's like the depth of the of the
experience based on what you know as far as the backstory, will give you
a different impression of what you're seeing when the event actually occurs too. So
if you're just on the surface level, you're going to see whatever is presented
to you, and that's going to be based on your own perception, your
own ability to comprehend what's happening. But if you had a deeper you know,
like an in for instance, with your book, if you knew the
inner workings of Crowley and his you know, his persona of being this Irish
rebel, basically, you might understand why he was doing something a little bit
differently when it happened, like say the event at the the you know,
the Statue of Liberty, rather than the onlooker who doesn't know who he is
at all and just sees the experience, you know, Like that's I mean
to take that one answer the thing about crole. So this is World War
one, New York. It's nineteen fifty and Croley has come over to respends
the war, and he sets up this whole. It's it's kind of a
performance art and that's one of the ways. You know, Croley is kind
of a performance artist. And so he gets together his entourage. You know,
he's got his girlfriend who plays the fiddle, Isla Waddell, and then
he collects the drugs and and there's also a New York Times reporter. That's
the key thing. He makes sure that the press is there to cover it,
which means there's nothing which is unplioned about what's happening. This is stunted,
and they all go out and he proclaims he declares war in the British
Empire. And he pulls out what's supposed to be his British passport and he
rips it up, and he goes into some sort of you know, esoteric
gobbledy goop about you know, Ireland being connected to Atlantis and which goes over
the head of the New York Time reporter. But this this, and it
gets in and it gets in the news, and he said, now,
the thing about Crowley, though, so you've seen this event. Simple fact
is he's not Irish in any way, shape or form. In fact,
I don't think he ever set foot in Ireland. And his entire life could
be wrong, but it was. He just stepped in and stepped out.
He's not Irish. None of the actual Phoenians in New York have anything to
do with him. They don't know who this guy is. He's not part
of any recognized Irish nationalist organization. The only people he's convinced to some degree
that he's an Irish nationalist are the Germans in New York. He tends to
think that the representatives of the Imperial German government and German Americans, you know,
the Kaiser's crowd. They fall for this. The Irish never do.
And and and he's not tearing up his his passport. He's tearing up an
envelope. His actual British passport is safe back in a drawer at home.
And it's a stunt. And it was a stunt meant to get in the
press and to impress the people he wanted to impress, who were the Germans
in New York, because he is selling himself to them as at the most
a British renegade or an Irish patriot who is willing to then help the German
cause. And he has to sell that to them, and he has to
sell it because he's actually working for the British Empire. Now, this was
one of those things that in his lifetime Crowley would periodically claim, and he
was usually in some time of duress. You know, he often felt unappreciated,
don't we all? And that's the main complaint I think good ever have,
is that people just don't appreciate all the things that I've done. They
don't appreciate me, well, he'd argue, know, and particularly when people
would condemn him for being the wickedest man in the world and a renegade and
trade. I mean, that reputation as a trader stuck with him and he
never shook it off. And as time went on, because he knew he
wasn't one, but he couldn't explain exactly why he wasn't one because of the
Official Secrets Act, he would say that you no, no, really,
when I was in New York, I was working for the British cause I
was really working undercover, and nobody really seems to have believed that, I
mean, even his friends never quite believed it. So I was actually,
here's the case. I was doing research on another person who was also involved
in espionage with some connections to the British during the same period, and I
wondered, you know, I wonder if this kind and Crowley ever had it
the connection with each other. So I sent off to the National Archives of
Washington, DC to see whether or not in the files of this now agency
that no longer exists called the Military Intelligence Division, whether they had any whether
there was a file I'm crawling so was that the name of it before they
became m I five and m I six? Was it the US government wasn't
see what it was. In World War One, the fbis we know today
really didn't exist. There was a Bureau of Investigation, but it wasn't terribly
important, and there was there was no sort of national security apparatus. So
during World War One, the US Army stepped in and you had the m
i D, which then actually was the group that was going around investigating everyone.
Okay, they were investigating pro Germans, anybody they thought were Bolsheviks,
you know, if they thought anyway you were suspect and your loyalty to the
US, they were, And they created a huge card file. Long before
at Jaggar Hoover did that, the m i D had done it. And
the interesting thing about the m i D files is that because that agency as
such is extinct, all of its files are declassified and you can you can
look through them so that they're all open, which is usually not something you
run into with intelligence files. So I got this little file that that that
came back to me, and they did have something on Crawley and I'm reading
through it and most of it's not particularly interesting, but there was, and
I actually have it right here. So the I get my glasses to read
this because I want to read it correctly. So I'm running through this whole
thing, and there's really in this whole not very long file, there's just
one paragraph. This is this is this is what research is actually like.
You read through hundreds of pages until you come across the one paragraph, hopefully
well that we'll actually have something useful in it. So it's this guy,
the guy that's reporting as an mid local officer, who's actually you know,
Crowley has been sort of hanging around at his neck of the wood up around
in the Hudson River valley. And they know that Crowley had written for these
pro German magazines prior to this. Now, the US is already this is
nineteen eighteen, the United States is in the war. So you know,
anybody British or otherwise who's considered to have written for a pro German magazine is
suspect. So they're thinking about arresting it. And they make an inquiry to
the British consulate in New York. And here's the key element of this.
Let's see what we have here. Let's see it was determined that Alistair Crowley
was an employee of the British government at present in this country an official business
of which the British Consul New York has full cognizance. Now, the importance
of that, which is really more like a sentence than a paragraph, is
that it meant. This is what jumped out to me that what Croley had
been saying about working for the British government wasn't bullshit, that was he was.
So what is stated here, what the British Consul stated was that he
is an employee of His Majesty's government and we know what he's doing and basically
layoff, let him continue doing his thing. Now that's interesting because it then
shit, it takes all of Krohley's comments and it puts them in a different
perspective. But of course what it doesn't tell you. What doesn't it tell
you what? What is he employed doing? What's his job? Well,
there are only so many possibilities for that. He's not involved in anything economic,
he's not there in the war mission, he's not part of any official
British agency. And I've done enough research in that area that I've looked through
the personnel list of every single British agency and Alister Crowley's nowhere to be found
on it. So what is he doing? What's he doing that the consul
would basically acknowledge that he's there, But then we're not going to tell you
what is going on. And that's because he is involved in clandestine work,
he is involved in intelligence works. He was doing exactly what it was he
said he was doing. So that then began this process of trying to figure
out what that could be. So it's it's one of these things that comes
in into you know, I said before that I was very interested in spy
hunting. I suspect a lot of people being about spies, well, very
rarely. You know, is it going to be obvious? It's never supposed
to be obvious, or you know, you're not doing your job. So
what do you have to look for is you have to look for a sort
of pattern of associations. Who do these people know, who do they come
in contact with, what sort of things are they doing? And so in
Crowley's case, you notice that he is the most obvious. Thing he did
was that he infiltrated the German propaganda apparatus in New York. And the reason
why that was important when he first arrived. So Crowley arrives in New York.
I always loved this part. He arrived in New York on Halloween aboard
the Lusitania. The Lusitania is still going to be around for a few months,
but it is a doomed ship. Okay, this this ship is going
to be sunk by the Germans some months down the road. But he shows
up, you know, on October the thirty first. Now that's one of
those things that I think, you know, the same goes. Sometimes a
cigar is just a cigar. So you know, the Canard Line had a
certain schedule and the Lusitania was going to arrive on the thirty first, and
that's about it. I don't think Aleister Curley arranged that way. It just
happened. I mean, maybe the universe arranged it that way, but he
didn't. So he shows up in nineteen fourteen and from that time up through
the middle of nineteen seventeen. This is one of these little historical details A
lot of Americans missed. The World War One was on, but the United
States was neutral, so the US doesn't join the war until it's been going
on for a better part of three years, and only in the latter part
of it. So the United States is a neutral country in fourteen fifteen sixty
even through the early part of nineteen seventeen, and therefore German diplomats and agents
and British diplomats and agents are all sort of free to operate within the country
and scheme against each other, which they're doing. There is this kind of
secret war which is going on between British and German agents, and then of
course you got Russian and French agents thrown into that as well. So what
Crow has done is that he creates this backstory about himself as being a renegade
or as being an Irish rebel, because he has to come up with some
reason as to why he would be willing to essentially betray his country. And
he is able to convince certain people in the German propaganda apparatus which is trying
to sway American opinion towards Germany. And you know, even he will remark
that they seem to be incredibly gullible, and I have to admit, they
never seem to ask the right questions. They take him at face value and
they're completely bamboozled by And he then uses that means not only to figure out
what the Germans are doing, doing propaganda wise, because he's setting at their
private meetings where they're talking about where their next move is going to be.
But he also makes suggestions to them. He argues that you might do things,
which brings us back for a moment to that whole question about that doomed
ocean liner, the Lusitania. So in May nineteen fifteen, the Lusitania is
a British liner, but it is torpedoed and sunk off the coast of Ireland
by a German U boat. And you know that's that's always kind of a
problem because you've just sunk a liner with a lot of passengers on it and
including something like one hundred and twenty eight Americans go down with the ship.
Now there's more than a thousand people to do, but there are Americans who
are killed. Now. The interesting thing is is that the British, the
British Admiralty, which by the way, is the actual agency that Crowley works
for. Okay, so Crowley is in this period of league is not employed
by what will become six or five. He's employed by another intelligence agency,
which is the Admiralty's Naval Intelligence Division, the NID. See some of these
things that gets complicated, and you you can kind of get lost in the
shuffle. Is that most countries have more than one intelligence agency. So we've
got the CIA, there's the FBI, there's the NSA. There are a
couple of others who've never heard of. But it's a house of many rooms.
That's the way to think about it. Any kind of intelligence apparatus is
a house of many rooms. So the Admiralty had been using the Lusitania to
carry war supplies. So it's carrying passengers in the cabins below, in its
cargo hole, it's carrying gun cotton and unassembled shells. That means legally it's
a target. So if you take an ocean liner and you put contraband on
it, and then it can be and this actually is you know of these
things less. There's actually an American inquiry into the Lusitania, and that's what
they determine is that it was carrying contraband supplies. So as nasty as it
was, the Germans were technically legally correcting what they did. It was fair
game. Now Crowley claims that it that the meetings of the German Propaganta Cabinet,
the question came up about well you know what would be a big deal.
You know, the Lusitania was sort of the pride of the British liner
fleet, and so sinking it would be have some sort of propaganda value.
And we know that they're carrying war supplies and it, so we have a
reason to do it. But can we? But then the question came,
how would they How would the American react to this, because you know,
we don't want to piss them off? And Crowley said, look, Americans
are like children. They have no actual experience in the rough and tumble of
great power politics, which practically speaking, in nineteen seventeen we didn't how quickly
we learn, we didn't know that much about it. And he goes,
Americans are like children. So what you have to do, if you have
to treat them firmly, what you want to do is scare the be Jesus
out of them. You want to show that the Germany is tough and determined,
it will stop it nothing. So if there's an ocean liner full of
passengers and has got war supplies on it, it'll be sunk, and he
goes, that will send the message you want to to the Americans. It
will send the message that Germany is frightening and too tough to it, and
he goes, that's what you want to do. Now, that's what he
claimed he did. I wasn't there. I don't know whether he did it,
but it kind of fits because that that did happen. Someone sold to
Berlin on that idea, But of course it had the opposite effect. It
outraged people, It almost brought the US into the war two years early.
And the main thing it did is that it completely poisoned American German relations.
So from that point on, in much of the American press, to much
of the American public, the Germans became the bad guys, and so Crawley
the boast. This was one of his great success just sell an idea to
people on one basis when you're actually hoping that for have the opposite effect.
So there are other things that came along. Most one of the things that's
not in the book. So one of the things the questioning is that whether
any updates. I may, at some point in the new Ark future do
another edition of the book. There are things I can add to it.
I don't think there's any huge amount of stuff I could add to it.
But one of the things I could add is that if you go some years
on, if we go up to nineteen thirty nine, if we go up
to the eve of the next war, World War two, there's a thing
called a kind of it's basically a census, but it was called a survey
of the British population, and it was an accounting of people in Britain.
But one of the things that included, you know, the same sort of
stuff, their name, their address, their occupation. But then off sort
of to the right hand side of the column, almost always in a blue
pencil, the annotator would go along and they would note what sort of past
military experience or association these people add. And it's interesting because what it tells
you is that they're already expecting there's going to be a war, and what
we want to do is to figure out who might be useful in that war,
who has the skills or experience that we might use. So we find
Crowley under by the way, his real name, which is Edward Alexander Crowley.
And that's the point I want to come back to, because it's also
missed. But you find him under this, and it's got his address.
I think it actually gives his This is nineteen thirty nine, and he gives
his profession as psychoanalyst, which he claimed to be on various occasions. Your
flood over there in blue pencil, it's written in Emergency List NID. So
NID remember stands for Naval Intelligence Division. Emergency list was a list of former
naval personnel people with past experience who could be called up for emergency service in
wartime. So it's kind of an auxiliary list of people you would have.
But the important thing here is that Crowley's on it. He's on the and
I so that that's one of those things. To me, that's another confirmation
that he's working, he's always been working for the NID, and that he's
on their emergency list, even twenty years on from the war. The other
thing which is intriguing about being on the emergency list is that, so far
as I can tell, in every other case I can find, and I've
only looked at a certain number of people to be on that you were generally
a naval officer of some kind, you had a commission. I've never seen
any other evidence. I've never even seen Croley claim that he held the commission.
But this is a suggestion that he may have and it comes back to
this thing of his real name. So again, is his name, the
only legal name he ever possessed, he never changes. It is Edward Alexander
Crowley, which means that there are always two people in one person. So
here's an interesting way to think about it. Alistair Crowley, the version of
Alexander. See what he does is he sort of stylizes his middle name because
he's you know, he doesn't want to be Eddie Junior, which is interesting
because among his family and close friends, he was always known as Eddie.
So I want you to think of that the next time you see a picture
of Alistair Crowley and to say Eddie Eddie. Do you ever wonder if that's
like because I have questioned this, like and I think that these people take
on like some stage persona yeah, character name, But like, now,
if Alosa Croley is dead, does that mean that Edward Crowley is alive?
I mean, did both of them die in December nineteen forty seven, or
well, is it just a character that's on the stage. It's now done
and dead, but the person still lives on. I mean, you just
gotta stop wearing ritual clothes and just go by a different name and nobody would
know who the hell you are. You know, anything is possible. I
mean, in all probably he seems you know, I say he was dead
when they said he was dead. I've just wondered that about all the people
too. Yeah, but it could, It could be employed by other people,
and it has been employed before. Yeah. So you know, you
got to be certain about things that it comes down to, like facts,
and the facts is you actually see the dead body? All right? If
somebody just tells you that someone is dead, remember, it's hearsay, like
Asama bin Laden, it's hearsay. Nobody, well you know they told me.
See this comes back to this point. The reason why most of us
believe things is because somebody told us they were true, correct, and we
just repeat whatever it was that we were told. We seldom ever think about
and most people never do. They just heard the story. But the reason
why you think this is because someone told you that, not because you have
any experience with it yourself. So Crowley sort of began to craft this alistair
identity as a teenager, and then later through most of his public professional life,
he becomes the occultist Alistair Crowley. It is exactly as you suggested,
Nick, it's a stage name, it's a persona he's created, but he's
always running parallel to that, existing simultaneously every moment of the day is Edward
Alexander Crowley. And so the question is are they always doing exactly the same
thing. I mean, the checks come to Edward, to Alistair whenever you
would get them, and it you know, at one point it occurred to
me is that I've been trying to, you know, try to find documentation.
And an interesting case that I actually relate in the book is that m
I five is the British Internal Security Agency, so they're like our FBI.
They they're not a spy agency, they're a counter spy agency, so they're
always sniffing around what people are doing. So I wrote to m I five
you can do that, and I said, do you have any files on
Alistair Crowley? Okay, I'm looking, you know, and you have to
give the whole sort of you know, it's like they don't know who he
is, so you have to tell them, oh, yeah, he was
alive from this period. And I got back a reply going, oh,
you know, it turns out that we don't, you know, we might
have had some, but they were The excuse you generally get is that other
were files of the past. But yeah, we threw them away or they
were too old. Nobody wouldn want to over look at these things, so
we burned them. Okay, that's not why you burn files. Okay,
you don't destroy files because you think they're useless. You destroy files because you
think they're possibly compromising. So now the odd thing was I going through other
files, I found cross references the files on Crowley. I found not one.
I found two, two files with two different numbers, both relating to
Alistair Crowley. So I thought I would be a smart ass about it and
I wrote back to them. I said, oh, you know, I
found these two references to these two files, and you know, maybe you
could look again. Got back another polite letter which basically said that, oh,
first of all, it said, thank you for bringing this to our
attention, thank you for telling us that we had these files on Crowley,
and we've gone back and checked, and you know we did, but they
all got destroyed. We can't locate them anymore. So here, again,
is a typical thing you'll find in dealing with intelligence agencies. If you're trying
to get information, the first answer will be we don't have anything. If
you then can show any evidence that they did, it will then be like,
oh, yeah, we did, but we don't have that anymore.
So that's what's happening. How am I going to know that? So,
you know, he occurred to me that maybe maybe I'm looking unto the wrong
name. Maybe I should ask really be asking for stuff under Edward Alexander Crowley,
because they wouldn't make that connection for me. Well, by the way,
I try that, and they don't have any of those either. Even
though maybe they're a were, they're not entirely sure. But I still suspect.
And one of the things I want to continue looking into is that if
you probe around to the right places and you look under the right name,
if you look for Edward as opposed to Alistair, you're going to find more
things than you would suspect otherwise. So I even we get that hand to
anybody else who wants to go searching after these things as well. So I
think that, yeah, that part of what Croley is doing. What Alistair
Crowley is is his stage name, it's his public persona. It's this person
that he plays and the tragedy, and I do think that Croley in some
ways is a kind of tragic figure. I mean, you know, he
was an asshole in a lot of ways. There's no getting around that.
He was not an easy person to deal with. But nevertheless, he did
get saddled with a reputation that he did not legitimately deserve. Not that he
didn't embrace that for a long time. You know, when in nineteen twenty
two the British press described him as the wickedest man in the world, he
kind of thought that was cool because he liked pissing off the authorities. You
know, it's you know, you like making people mad, and the whole
idea you can get these you know, pressy past press barons so uptight,
you know, the pearl clutters to clutch them even tighter and called, well,
you must have achieved something if they think you're the wickedest man in the
world. Yeah, otherwise they don't talk about you at all when you don't
exist. You know, infamy is just fame with more letters. So but
the thing is, the thing you keep in mind all your children out there,
is that once you get that reputation, it is a stink. You
will never get off of you. And that's what he began when he later
wanted to be taken seriously, when he wanted to be seen as something other
than, you know, some sort of creepy Croley another Cooeen. He found
that that he couldn't that idea had now been completely implanted in the public mind
and they didn't want to. A case of that was in I think it's
in nineteen thirty four. There was a woman in Britain by the name of
Nina Hamnet who wrote a book called The Naked Torso I don't know how I
remember that, but I did, and it was, you know, it
was this autobiographical thing. But at some point Decker to say earlier Crowley had
run a kind of a cult commune on the north coast of Sicily, the
the abbey of Thelema, a place called Cephalou. You know, this was
It was a miserable failure in a lot of ways, but this was and
people came there and you know, they perform magic, had sex, got
sick, a whole variety of things happened, and Nina Hamnet's and she and
her boyfriend were there, and her boyfriend got sick and died. Her boyfriend
died of typhoid calood. The water wasn't any good, and you know,
there wasn't anything terribly weird about it. Crowley in fact told him don't drink
out of that well, and he did it anyway. Yeah, I heard
it was Capwood. It was a ritual thing that they did, and was
actually a cat that poisoned him. I think that's her story, but no,
she's got so she told this whole story about child sacrifice and Crowley being
responsible for her boyfriend's death. So he decided, Okay, here's my chance
because I know that what she's saying here alive. So I'm going to sue
her for libel. She's libeling me but she was, and then will then
go into court and I can establish that this book is a massive lies and
therefore this can help undercut all these other stories about me. I can I
can redeem my reputation by suing Nina Hamnet and showing that her stories are lies.
Well, he handled the whole thing poorly, But the main thing was
is that once he got into court, everyone was against him. The judge
hated him. It had already decided he was, you know, the scum
of the earth. Most of the jury had already read about him in the
papers and knew who he was. And Crowley's lawyers could present medical certificates from
Italian authorities showing the guy's cause of death. It didn't matter. Okay,
It was creepy Crowley who was bringing charges against this woman, and he lost
the case. It bankrupted him, and all her defense had to do was
just to go through and read newspaper or so. What they did, of
course, is they put him on trial, and they weren't going to try
to prove what she said was good, right, They were just really going
to prove that if she says anything horrible about him, there are already so
many or the horrible things about him that this you know that somehow it must
be true. So his whole calculation was completely wrong. But he was doing
that in his effort to try it in some way, get to redeem his
reputation in some way, but he couldn't and he never really does. But
I think it's that situation that you can get. You know, if you
play a role long enough, the role begins to play you, the character
becomes you, right. I think that's what happened to him, and of
course that brings up the interesting question is that if Alistair Crowley was a stage
name, if it was a persona, then how much of everything connected to
it is fake? Yeah, yeah, I mean there's that, But I
mean there's also the House at Lockness that I mean, would why would to
me, Paige be interested in it if there wasn't occult stuff going on there.
I believe that the rituals were actually occurring. There's even this idea that
with the Lucidania, uh, that the thing that Churchill would do and he
was he was the what do you call it, the first Royal Admiral of
or whatever it was called, uh, while he was in Admiralty Intelligence,
Crowley was and that that's that thing was supposed to be the sign of Typhon
which they were evoking for the ritual of taking down the Lusitania. So there's
that idea out there that that's a thing, and I think that there's a
lot of valid I mean brought he you know, developed thilemma. He was
given basically the reins of the Oto and added the sodomy degree the eleventh.
I mean, he did a lot of he did a lot of things that
were well, very vaulted, So it's not like he would didn't have an
interest in it and he was just playing a part. You know. I'm
trying to raise that possibility because on the one hand, you have people who
would argue that, well, we were hard to find people who had argue
that Crowley was was completely a fake because their whole idea was that magic and
everything he stood for, the whole rum of a coult is nothing but fakery,
and therefore since he promotes it, he is ergo a fake. Well,
I've thought this is like, we know, like the ot O and
the AA was like Cia or Rosicrucian orders that they use as a puppet.
It's just to be like, yeah, he'll be the full guy and they'll
just I do question. I'm not saying that Crowley wasn't a screwed up guy,
but I actually whatever you're saying, Rick, I think I question a
lot of his stories if they're even true, Tol, especially his mountain climbing.
I'm sorry, I think those are actually occult stories. If you understand
occultism and magic, you'll see exactly what they're saying about Crowley. There.
He's not climbing a fucking mountain. I could be well, I'm sort of
raising this to suggest that here again do you enter this realm of uncertainty?
Hey, and this is the very thing are you talking about. The people
might be up on the mountain to say, yeah, that was Crowley up
there, whoever the fuck he paid. Probably, so you're talking about like
desolation of the Apex like it's actually it's a reference to a type of ritual
or I think he's just doing by work at that time, Nick, I
don't know. I mean, I do think like what he was saying,
I do think he played both sides. I do think like he was definitely
working both sides. But I just there's too many stories about him, And
I'm not saying it to defend the guy. That just some of them.
To me, if you're into occultism, and even if you understand his writing
and see certain things he hits on, it's like, well, you're seeing
it in these stories that's supposedly describing his life as well. So I go,
how much of this is ciphered occultism for other occultists to see, how
much is bullshit or how much is it real? It's all of them.
It comes into this. It's the same sort of thing. There are things
that we experience, there are things that we're told. So our whole general
grasp of reality is based on this amalgam of things that we've experienced and then
things that we're told more than what we're told, and we're experienced, and
we also know that we can seem that we we don't have exactly the same
experience to others who might have been there at the same time. So it's
all very it's spooky, it's subjective, It depends upon perspective, and it
depends upon your own mindset at the time. So I mean, here's one
case in point, when Crowley claimed that he was working for British intelligence in
New York in World War One. That is I am of different things true,
Okay, the full ramifications of everything that that included. There are probably
lots of other things we don't know about. I mean, by going through
and looking at his actions, you know what I would do. Much of
what I do in the book is that, Okay, here's here's essentially that
the record of what he did and who he knew, where he went during
that period of time. There are some things in that that seem to be
very clearly intelligence related is connection. You know his writing for the Fatherland.
All right, that's that's clearly that one of the things. But that wasn't
all there was to it. And then there are other things that are in
some ways less certain but possible. So at one point he goes on this
whole Yeah, he gets money out of it. This is one of the
things to look for people that don't have money who suddenly get money in their
hands. So the thing that Crowley is continually complaining about during the war years
in the States is that he's not getting any money. He's not getting any
money. He complains later that, yeah, that the British government paid him,
but they didn't pay him very much. So suddenly he gets enough money
in his pocket so that he can go on a cross country, a strail
circuit journey all the way to the West coast of the United States and back
to New York. Wasn't cheap now, was it cheap? Then? So
where does he get the money? And then why does he take this particular
route, and why does he visit these particular places. So on the part
of it is that he's performing magical rituals along the way, and I just
to come back to a point the game of earlier. I think Crawley believed
in magic, that he took his occult beliefs seriously. But I also don't
think, if you look and read carefully, that he necessarily knew exactly what
was going on. He's as confused about this as anybody else. I mean,
there's one point I think it's in magic and theory and practice where he
goes. You know, you don't really worry too much about whether these things
are happening because of external for you know, is it something external? Are
there gods and demons and entities who are doing this or is it just some
manifestation of your own psyche. So it's adviced basically is that don't worry about
it. If he works, the only thing is if it works. If
it works, you don't care why it works. But he didn't really know.
He didn't really know whether this was something I am doing or whether it's
something which is being done to me, you know what I mean. Another
thing that I think is like kind of like the hammer on the point that
you're saying. Another thing that me and Lisa have even noticed ourselves from covering
like older people that were you know, before Crowley and before Math. You
know, you start to almost see I think, especially with Crole, I
think it kind of like had a clue and then ripped off other people's ideas
and just changed your art a little bit and kind of just rebranded someone else's
idea. Yeah, well that's I mean, that's a coviding before it's just
ripping it off and renaming it. Yeah. I think of how many people
they're all probably roughly acquainted with Madame Blovotsky and theosophy, you know, root
races, you know, you know, ascended math. You have to find
out how many times that's been ripped off by every cult leader between No,
it's one of the biggest ones. I think. I was, I was,
you know, uh watching this uh documentary about this strange cult. They're
all strange, but this was the Mother God called the Love has One You
haven't seen that you really should, because first of all, it's one of
the lamest cults I've ever heard of. Most of the time, it's like
you try to figure out why would they believe that? But this is when
like, what on earth is the matter with you people? You know what?
You know? The ahead of it is this woman who is a former
manager of McDonald's, and she thinks she's the Mother God and she has to
process negative energy by drinking yourself into a stupor. But this was the best
part of it. She's guided by her version of the ascended Masters, which
I think she calls the Celestials, and the Chief, her sort of archangel,
Gabriel, is the ghost of Robin Williams. Yes, yes, so
you've got some. When it was telling you that I guess I need more
alcohol in order to save the world, and oh, the ghost of Robin
Williams was here and he told you you all have to do this and give
me your money. Is this the same one that turned like grayskin? Because
she was giving her colonials, she essentially poisons herself and she ends up as
this kind of green gray money. And of course when she's dead, they
can't accept that she's dead, so they just keep her moldering corpse, you
know, surrounded by Christmas lights. But it's just it's all got insane,
so it's decorated like a Christmas tree. Maybe it's just you know, it's
like she went out on the web and she, you know, read something
about theosophy and thought Oh, it's interesting, So I'll just come up with
my own version of it, but it just gets repeated over Well, you're
talking about rip off? What did Crowley rip off? For sure? The
oto, he didn't come up with it. It was a German secret society
formed years before, and he really just sort of stole it. You know,
you know, no offense to you, Eddie, but none of you
did just sort of steal it. And they kind of were impressed by Crawley
because of stuff that he stole from Mathers that made him was intelligent, right,
I mean, isn't that kind of how that went? Well, yeah,
he got in there, you know, he would try to take whatever
him but yeah, he stole all the stuff from from the Hermitic Order of
the Golden Dawn and god knows what else. But I think you steal from
each other. And I've thought it's funny about that, Like, you know,
every secret society obviously they're gonna ask you. You're not supposed to repeat
anything. But it's like the guy who's his name on disorder actually ran his
mouth about a lot of stuff he wasn't supposed to from the Golden Dawn.
But you want me to not I just think I just find that kind of
contradictory with the OTO. You're a guy had no problem running his mouth about
the Golden Down. It is, but it's yeah, it's so yeah.
See, he essentially just appropriate. He stole the OTO part of it.
I mean, some of them never really recognized him. But it wasn't something
that he developed. It wasn't the name that he came up with, but
it was a good vehicle. He wanted something to promote the Lima, which
just never you know, Rick wasn't he liked the perfect asset though, because
some of these secret societies were impenetrable, and some of the people that were
attending these secret societies were people that they wanted to get secrets from, even
if it's just a scientist, even if it's just a mathematician, a physicist,
or whoever, if if you were fighting a technical none an intelligent war.
As these societies, as these agencies were calling themselves intelligence. And for
some reason, it seems like to me that these intelligence agencies, regardless if
it's British, American, Russian, they're all interested in the esoteric. They're
all interested in the mind. The mind is the last frontier that everybody wants
to conquer, then you want to know what these people are saying, what
these practices are about, these rituals, what are they gaining? Are they
able to manifest or infiltrate other people's mind? And he was the perfect asset
for them in that whole regard. And I think it was somebody had mentioned
that he had and correct me if I'm wrong. I think he had kind
of food barred an op or something in Italy and then he kind of was
trying to recover from that or something. Correctly, that's connected to this abbey
of Thilema, Okay, and the reason the Italians it was the early part
of Mussolini's government. But the reason the Italians expelled him, I think their
public reason was because he was morally reprehensible, so they expelled him from the
country. But in the internal documentation they suspect him of being a spy.
Okay, And it's the same reason he gets kicked out of France in nineteen
twenty nine. The French poll his residency permit and they make some sort of
excuse like he was fooling around with people. We think maybe we were involved
in drug dealers, but basically we think he was a spy. We think
we think he was a British spy. And by the way, the French
always think the English is spying on them because they always are so excuse if
your France. You know, they learned this with Joan of Arc never trust
the English. So but that was his uh, you know, in Germany
in the early thirties, the Germans thought that he was a spy, and
he is consistently. But it's there's this whole this the thing. One of
the things that intelligence and occultism has in common is the obsession with secrets and
how to keep it secrets, and how to keep it secrets. So what
do you want to do is you want to get other people's secrets, then
you want to hide them away and and embed them in something else. So
this is where of the whole idea of coming up with ritualistic language and allegory
as a way of some times disguise stories are just ciphered stories and somebody else
well, now that's like, that's why I think when he's when he's in
the States during the war, he writes he sort of created this his version
of Sherlock Holmes called Simon if Okay, So simon If was his his first
sort of occult detective and and the stories and you can find them there.
They're published the Scrutinies of Simon If. They collect the stories, and actually
most of them are oh, I won't say most, some of them are
pretty good. And but the thing about them is that he's writing about things
that are going on. And if you go through some of these stories,
you can find that he's writing about real places and real people and to some
degree real events. So he's talking about in one of the stories that all
involves using o Oiji board to sort of ferret out this German conspiracy. And
the od thing is is that that's based upon something that actually happened, because
there's another British intelligence official, a guy named Norman Thwaites, who writes his
own version of that where he talks about the same thing. I mean,
he and Crowley are giving slightly different versions of So they'd involved a young woman
with psychic abilities at al Ouiji board and a German plot. So Crawley is
embedding these fictional stories about a fictional character, which is so first of all,
simon If is based on him. Simon If is just his version of
himself. It's another character he's created, and he's creating these stories that's talking
about events that, to some extent actually happened. But it also probably there
are things that are so here you don't know. You've entered twilight zone.
You've entered the twilight And see that's me what history is. History is the
Twilight Zone. You get into it and you're never quite sure what's real and
what is it. Some of it is okay. The Simon, the character
in the story, is actually a version of the person who's writing it,
and it incorporates things that actually happened, and it incorporates fanciful elements that went
on as well. So there's a female character that shows up in some of
the Simon if story is called Dolores Cass. It's sort of like this this
college girl that he takes under his wing. And so a question that I
and a couple of other people had is that was there an actual basis for
that character? So who in real life was Dolores Cass or is she completely
fictional? Did he just make her up? Is she based on a real
person? And if she is, how closely is she based on that real
person? We never figured that one out. But if you go through you
could sort of look who the potential candidate is. I tend to think that
she's an amalgam of two or three different people. But then now that this
is the other thing you find that's that's what literature, this thing is full
of. You you end up with a fictional character that isn't based on one
person, but if is based on several different people, incorporating different different aspects
of them. But it was you know the value, Well, let's think
of it this way. What if magic works, particularly in this sense,
in the Crowleian sense that that one can alter well whether, as he put
it, you can create change and can formity with will, that you can
use consciousness individual or collective to alter reality. That's what he's talking about.
You can shape reality through will. Now, what if you can just imagine
the intelligence implications of that, If you could possibly so, you're certainly going
to want to look into it. So if you ever wonder whether the CIA
and other agencies are constantly you know, they've got a bunch of remote viewers
or psychics in a back room somewhere, and then they do that constantly,
it's because there is the there is the you have to figure out whether that
works. I think I think that was the beginning of proto quantum mechanics.
There's certainly an overlap with that as well, because because if you don't look
into it, if you don't prove to yourself it can work or it can't
work, then you can't know what it is your opponents were doing. I
just think of this way. Should figure out how you can put curses on
God, a death curse God. That's the easiest assassination in the world and
is completely untraceable. People will just drop dead and we'll we had nothing to
do with it. Can we do that? I don't know. It's like
a few million dollars and black funds and find out looks about making people drop
dead through will heart attacks. We got to try. Well, it's it's
the whole, it's the minute stare at goats, Okay, and there's there's
a real story for it. So what am I doing? Why am I
staring at the goat? I'm trying to concentrate to stop its heart. Okay,
this guy's gotta go. This is this is this is what the purpose
of this would be. Somebody, and we've got to know. Yeah,
I did want to ask you a question. I hate to go back a
little bit. It was just like an idea that actually a listener had in
a chat on mine. I think somehow we were talking about Crowley in like
different addresses, and I guess, first off, I'd like to ask you,
do you know how many places? And have to put you on the
spot, how many different addresses did he live at? Why he was supposedly,
you know, I guess an agent, because like I guess, like,
let's say there just in the States during World War I wana his entire
life, no, like when you think he might have actually been working like
for intelligence, well somewhere. I didn't compile it, but a friend of
mine went through and tried to come up with every address they could confirm.
Or he lived in the US between nineteen fourteen and nineteen nineteen, so it
isn't the US for about five years. And I've got that around some way.
It's many he moved around. Yeah, And the reason why I was
even bringing that up is because somebody brought up a good point. I thought
about that, and not necessarily every address, but like I would wonder,
are those addresses actually kind of like safe houses for the intelligence and their housing
him there to begin with. So it's just it was just kind of like
a you know, just a wondering idea, like, you know, maybe
people that have lived there prior and after might also be intelligence as well.
That could always be an interesting question. He lived in hotels, and I
know one of them was a Rewort hotel which was in Manhattan, which later
became a much more CD place than it was at the time, but a
lot of artists needed to stay there. I mean. The one thing,
the one thing that the British didn't want in that period when he when he's
actively working, is they don't they don't want to have anything that would connect
them with him. Everything is supposed to separate them. So that's one of
his complaints is that he's largely left on his own, so they're not going
to do much for him. When he really needs it, they'll come up
with money. This is something else to look for in Crawley's whole career.
You noticed that his whole life, basically once he spends his inheritance, was
exhausted by nineteen seventeen. That was the question I had. Yeah, yeah,
I think I think nineteen step that's when he gets one of the last
chunks from his mother. Yeah, for cruy al from mom and uh.
And there's this interesting relationship there, but it's you know, but he goes
through his money. Uh. And he could have he could have frittered his
life away in pleasant debauchery if he just had some sense of how to manage
money. And he doesn't. He's terrible with money. He borrows money from
people, he never pays it back. He's not particularly a good friend.
I think I think he would have been a real pain in the ass of
a friend because he would constantly you know, it's the one that never has
a place to stay, never has any money. He's always complaining. There's
a book, you know, here's this group of followers in California, Gopy
Lodge in Los Angeles, one that Jack Parsons gets connected to. And there's
there's a to me a kind of revealing book that was written by Martin Starr
called The Unknown God, which which is was essentially sort of the history of
the Agappy Lodge and of the Oto and in Hollywood and Los Angeles. And
it doesn't really amount to much of anything, and but it has it deals
with the correspondence between Crowley who's sitting over in London, constantly complaining about one
thing or another, and all he wants from these people is money, and
he just treats them. These are people, you know, Wilfred Smith and
others who misguided or not, have largely devoted their lives to him and really
do send him any spare amounty they have, and he just treats them like
shit. He constantly complains he is ungrateful for anything they do to him,
and you know, and then that to me sort of epitomized Crawleys as an
asshole, as someone who's just a difficult person to deal with. That manipulation
like that. I don't know why I'm hearing myself, but that's that's a
that's a tool of manipulation though like the beaten dog. You know, it's
more loyal if you did it like crap type of thing. And with him,
I mean he probably at that time, if we believe the story has
had multiple addictions, so that type of attitude would also come out too.
If you were fiending, you know, you would want it. You would
want the money before you had the itch, well ahead of time, before
you had the itch, right because after that you're out of your mind.
So yeah, he's but it's it's it's a toxic relationship. Yes he's manipulating,
but it's it's just it's he's just being He's an enigma though who was
passionate him. Yeah, Like there's certain people he does actually take under his
wing with like some sort of tenderness. So it's weird how he acts.
It's it's very And here's the thing that I wonder because when you look at
his childhood, those brethrens like the Plymouth, the Exclusive, going back to
the Moravian you can even go back to the Asiatic like those those were the
converts from from Jacob Frank that created those would then become Christian Zionist Brethrens like
that was that was those converts that became you know, Catholics and Christians that
formulated those The Asiatic Brethren was started by Jacob Frank's brother in law. So
you have this Sabotine Francis type of thing which is completely inverted. You have
the child abuse, the sex, all that stuff, all the all the
breaking of the of the taboos. How much of that was part of Crowley's
you know childhood that may have made him more of the beast than we would
imagine. And that type of person Francis is never supposed to be what he
is outwardly, you know, inuitarly, not outwardly, right, So he
would be the perfect type of candidate four type of like a like an intelligence
agency type of spy because he lived that way. You always have a fake
persona for the world where you're you know, you're you're coveting and you're secreting,
you know, what you actually do in private, and they like the
whole thing is like you know, wife swapping orgies, blood rituals, drinking
blood and all kinds of stuff like that child rape was one of those,
and passing around your own children. So who knows what he had experienced.
Well, there again, if you look from the outside, what you see
in the Crowleys as a you know, a puritanical, a well off trade
family. You know they're they're they're not aristocrats. You know, they've they've
made money in trade. They're the bourgeoisieois right, respectable, right and respectable,
a very respectable family and members of a non conformist Christian fundaments a sect.
Now, what kind of weird things could possibly go on in a Christian
fundamental asseect all right, maybe nothing okay, And see you don't know.
And it's not trying to assist that it's one thing or another, but the
that's just it. You don't know. All you see is the kind of
outside of this family. You don't know what the internal dynamics were in one
form or another. He certainly had a very bad relationship with his uncle.
Yes, his mother's brother, Tom Booth, last name is Booth, hated
him and I think probably his uncle despised me. You know what, what
exactly was the root of that? Why was the uncle so negative towards him
and he towards the other one. It's, you know, trying to understand
that there's nothing more mysterious than the dynamic of human interactions. He was devastated
by his father's death, and I think it was like some kind of lung
or not tongue cancer or something, right like, that's some kind of weird
thing with his mouth, that cancer. I think that's what. Yeah,
he idolized his father. Of course, you know, his father died eleven
so he could he could you know, you never had to deal with him.
He never lived through his dad as an adolescent word. And I'm almost
wondering that doesn't necessarily mean that it was absent of the like sexual abuse,
because that bond can still remain there even if there was that, and that
could have been the reason why he was so devastated. It doesn't mean that
there was, but that doesn't mean that there was either, right exactly.
It's just we're creating our narratives that we cannot look into anymore. It's one
of those things. And and it's opaque because that's something that doesn't doesn't yield
physical records. You know, I don't know. Maybe he run across as
the chest and a bunch of people wrote person the letters in one form or
another, but you're not going to find that, so you really don't know.
They wouldn't be very frank to them if they wrote it down anyway.
Oh you're not. People do that even though they're not supposed to. Okay,
even spy, you never write and never put anything in writing. Ok
I hope you've all learned that so far. But I think one of the
the underlying themes of Crowley it was everything was supposed to be interpreted backwards.
Everything was supposed to be interpreted opposite of what you see and what you read.
If if I'm not mistaken, he said, you even talked about at
some point like to be if you're going to be a legitimate and what do
you call a serious magician, you should learn to talk backwards, walk backwards,
you know, all kinds of weird stuff like to do in backwards.
It almost makes you wonder if the realm that he's trying to access is like
a mirror image of ours, so they only notice you if you're moving the
same way that they are. It's kind of a weird thing, right,
yeah, or so much like with how everything is inverted, everything is backwards
les, yeah, and then in the oculum, yeah, no, absolutely.
And then he was a huge fan of the author from Alice in Wonderland,
Lewis Carroll. And Lewis Carroll had the condition where he in his mind
everything was already flipped. Like in terms of seeing things, it was already
flipped. He didn't have the readjustment as a normal vision and as well as
reading. And I think it's the Alice in Wonderland syndrome, which it is.
Weirdly, it's the acronym sounds like iowas, which was the entity that
he contacted in Egypt, so you know, the similarities are there hugely well
as usual, there's you know, it's so likely you can read things on
multiple levels, which is system with me. Is just another way of saying
you don't understand it. And then and that's that's I think that's okay to
do. I think it's really where you've got to start out is going I
don't understand this. I mean, there's something here, but I don't know
exactly what it is. And it's you've got to, you know, to
sort of keep yourself honest in a way. You don't want your narrative to
get too carried away with it. So it's that is sometimes sometimes the story,
the script can can take over because you want to make all of this
turnout. You know, you want to be able to say I under I
know everything, and I understand everything. And then that's where you know,
you've you've always got this slippery slope where speculation begins to turn into fact or
into portraying the fact. Okay, where something it possibly could be to things
into where it is in some way, and we like certainty, we like
the story to come out into a particular way. But the reality is that
things aren't certain. Nothing is, you know. I think like what you're
kind of getting at, and I think like what you're saying. I guess
it would be the after effect of like trying to guess that things that you
really don't know anything about, but making it certain. I feel like you
actually kind of described and it's my just my opinion. I do think it
may be kind of due to occultist or something something with the Internet, but
I feel like that thinking has kind of interjected itself into conspiracies hugely, and
especially like Quanon stuff, to where you're going to tumble down this just absurdity
of things and just keep going and just almost roam with fantasies that you've created
so you can make sense of something your brain can't act rapids head around.
Like I actually wonder if that's like part of like mentally syopping people. We're
gonna give you ship that you're actually gonna play with so much you'll never even
know what the fuck happened. Well, you can give them enough information and
then lead them to towards a particular conclusion. I mean, you always have
to somehow get them to think that it's their idea. That's you know,
you're you're manipulating in a particular way, like the Delphi method, right,
Like when you you with leading questions, you kind of get people to expose
their own uh what do you call it, the weaknesses in their in their
argument. It's a pretty selected Yeah, you're kind of leading it right by
bye your questioning. You're getting them to have to examine themselves. Yeah.
Well, it's the other thing that we all confront is the role also being
continually manipulated all the time. I mean, just look at advertising, all
right, there's there's nothing which is you know, it's one of the things
that you know, certainly from the time I've retired martly because it's you know,
useful. Is that. I admit to being kind of a YouTube junkie.
All right. I used to watch television. Now I just watch stupid
crap on YouTube. And sometimes it's it's good. Sometimes it is just to
I do enjoy every now and then just stupid mindless crap. I like people
spied lunking. Okay, it's going down in caves for some reason. Satisfied.
But the one thing, and this this isn't any like I haven't noticed
anything that shouldn't have been obvious to me to begin with. And I'm embarrassed
to say that this didn't strike me them and I looked at it. But
if you go through when you look at the descriptions of most videos on YouTube,
they're all exaggerated. Okay, it's all it's clickbait, it's it's never
it never comes up with what it is that it advertises it's going to be.
And this is just purely manipulated. This is YouTube doing this. It's
marketing. It's marketing, and you know, uh, like I'm big into
true crime sometimes just to like sometimes I even use that just like decompressed or
just like I know that's probably not the nicest thing to think about, but
whatever to decompress, but I'll put that on. But there's like certain channels
that I've been noticing, you know, for a while now that I will
see that the headline is not exactly what happened in the crime, it's what
if once you press play and get into it, it hasn't actually happened.
Co Burgers, you know, they got them, Like what the fuck?
Like you know, like you just played with my emotions over the title of
this show. Okay, So did you just mention and yeah, you know
that I live in the town where that murder occurred. We've been dying to
ask you about the pulse who's been talking about Yes, it's so, it's
it's it put Moscow, you know where, like the murder capital of the
Pacific north West or over that now. But but that's one of the EPs,
is that I do watch some of these things. The US is.
You know, you've got all these two crime shows and these various people who
are you know, whether they're psychics who are trying to figure out the case,
but there are people who just come up with they've never been here.
Okay, this is an example of someone who's trying to analyze. There's one
woman in particular, and apparently she can use Google Maps, she just can't
use it well. And she's got all of this whole sort of geography of
the place in her mind, and so she describes the relationships between play and
it's just it's not there. If you just went and looked at the place,
you would realize that these plays are not in any way and connected to
each other. You know, the tunnels under the university are just perfectly normal
access to tunnels there's no gold mine. You know, it's just one just
I can't describe it any other way than one moronic story after the other,
which is completely based on nothing. And and it's just and I just want
to tell these people that you're not helping. Okay, this is not helping
anyone, This is not solving the case. You're not getting any closer.
You're just free form fantasizing. Well you can, if you can do it,
but it's you know, you're just describing a place that does not exist.
It exists only in your mind. Uh, it's not actually there.
So you're saying that it's not the catacombs of a mythrae in temple underneath that
uh university for a definite fact, that there is no mith raem under the
university. But I'm pretty damn sure there isn't. There's nothing that would be
extremely So, you know, I don't I don't particularly I don't hate fraternities
and sororities. I have, you know, full disclosure. I've never been
part, never wanted. I think they're weird, but nevertheless, that's what
people want to do. But you know, I've known enough people and then
that they're relatively you know, there's probably some beast reality that goes on farm
animals, that type of thing. You know, nothing that that's but I'd
say that's about as far as it goes, you know, human sacrifice.
I think it stops probably before that, but it depends of course upon the
fraternity and the way their things are going. But it's yeah, people with
just and and and I think in in the the Idaho four case, in
the in that case, one of the things that feeds is is simply the
lack of information. And and because there is no information, then it will
just be there's there. There's one particular piece of video, the grub truck
video. You ever seen this, and it's the place where the two girls
or to them, it's just it's a grub truck of just out there for
people get out of bars and they can go and eat food and throw it
up before they get home. And there it's just it's there's nothing unusual going
on. It's just a typical night at this place. But people have gone
over every frame of this and they have somehow almost that every single person there
is somehow involved in the murder, all of them. And it's just this
gigantic all encompassing conspiracy. You know that involves macaroni and cheese and you know
nothing. It's just you know, I have actually as you, I don't
think this would be such a big of a case on like YouTube and conspiracy
people if there is more information, Because you're right, I think the lack
of it gives the lack of information to imaginations and over time. Yes,
but it's a prime example, I guess if I had a point in here.
The example is that this is where with a lack of information, people
want to create a narrative, and so they'll will create all of these different
scenarios about the murder and who was responsible to the rest of it, some
more absurd than others, all different levels of absurdity. But it's all based
because they don't actually have any real and so they then do what people do,
They make it up, which ties back into your point about history.
How you have such a lack of maimation they have to make it. You
did that, well, you know, you got to come up with it.
We just can't leave it unexplained. So there's got to be so this
this is why it happened. Well maybe it did, maybe it didn't.
So are we talking about the same one where there's like sticks laid across the
body, and it was one okay, okay, okay, gotcha. This
was just you know, knife slaughter ry. We don't have those a regular
run of the military crest, just you know, just bloody murder for some
unknown purpose. Rights. So I had a well, now you guys go
first, because I was gonna I I had a quick comment. I spent
some time with Crowley's handwritten journals, and I started to see how and this
is prior to this was for the vision and the voice. His publication is
considered I guess the second most important what he considered from book of the law,
and and I started to see how he was formulating, formulizing the actual
book. And so he would write on one side of the page and on
the other side there was like mathematical formulations, or he was you know,
scribbling something, drawing stuff out, or there was actual sometimes math equations,
and then you know, you would see Jamatria tup because he would write out,
you know, a phrase and then the numbering and what have you.
And so it's it gave me the impression that there was a lot more going
on prior to I mean, obviously with any person who writes, you're formulating
how you're going to style it. One other thing that stuck out to me
the most was there were specific words that were capitalized over and over and over
that had no real noun importance to be capitalized, and you and they're in
there. It included also like in an addition to where I guess they gave
it to him and he would circle and cross out like, no, this
had need to be capitalized. No, this word's not capitalized, even though
it was the exact same more two pages before. And so you almost start
to see like a method to the madness of it into where it felt like
it was code. It felt like there was a cipher. It felt like
there there was more, much more thought than just hey do this, do
that you might get this result or use this ritual, use this spell or
whatever. It much more layered than any of that. And not to not
to go on about it, but it almost seemed like people that they kind
of look at some of this stuff that they take it at face value and
they're not truly seeing that all of this other stuff of probably his upbringing and
then his involvement in all the secret societies, and then as well as some
of the visions he claimed to have had that there was that the actual book,
final product was much more layered than actual people were giving credit for,
and not to you know, go on about that. It just it seemed
like, I don't know that there was there was much more going on there,
and that potentially this final product was something that involved intelligence, that involves
some sort of cipher that involved also a coded message out to the rest of
the world world for many different walks of life. Well, first, yeah,
I think you're absolutely right. I can't say in detail, but I
think you're you're onto something that there's there's always a different levels of meaning.
You can find that in most things. Right, if there's you know,
you think about this way, why would particular words, Well, there's nothing
random about it. So if he's capitalizing words, it's not random. I
mean something, there's a purpose. The mystery here is figuring out what that
purpose is supposed to be. And the answer to that that some would give
is that, well, if you can't see it, you're not supposed to.
It will be obvious to those to whom it's obvious. The rest of
us, it just looks chaotic. It looks it looks random in some way,
but the moment is that it's not random. Nothing like that is done
randomly, so it's and I think there probably are some intelligence techniques in that
in a way. And you know, again you want if you want to
disguise things, one of the ways you can do it is to make it
make something which is meaningful appear to be meaningless, something which is calculated appear
to be random, so that no one looking at it from the outside will
really understand what's going on when it comes to his intelligence connections. Is intelligence
work. The thing the governing factor that hangs over this is the Official Secrets
Act, which was actually fairly new. I think that comes in around nineteen
ten, nineteen eleven. But what it means, and this is very real,
is that you never talk about this. I mean, you know,
it's like first rule of fight club. You never talk about fight club of
this thing. And that, by the way, in not just British intelligence
elsewhere, is the single most important factor. If you are told that you
never talk about these things, you never talk about them, and if you
do, there will be very serious consequences. And I think that that was
in fact One of the things that you can kind of look at if you
go through is that there aren't these kid in the press. For He'll say,
I think of the one of the times he got closest is spilling the
beans was around nineteen twenty nine when he's kicked out of France, and this
makes press around the world you can even regret about in America. He's thrown
out of France and he and this is when he comes back and he goes,
oh, you know I can I you know, I work for British
Naval intelligence. He even implies he has some connection to American intelligence, which
he did, and he actual and then he mentions a name. He mentions
this particular official, Captain Guy Gaunt, and Gaunt was in fact the head
of naval intelligence in New York. And now so he's a real that's the
guy, all right, that Guy Gaunt. He had direct contact with Guy
Gott, knew him. And he says at one point that I, you
know, if I'm drawn into court, he's basically threatening to take legal action
in France and to call Guy Gaunt to come in and testify that he really
was working for British intelligence. Well that's when sort of you know, the
crap hits the fan. So anytime Crowley tends to look like he might open
his mouth a bit too much, things happened to him. Yeah, okay.
And then, for instance, one of the things that happens is he
does get called back to England. He meets with his fellow you know,
Carter, who says that you know it, basically tells him, look,
we need you to keep your mouth shut. Well, we'll take care of
you. We're not going to bring you. You can't come back to England
because you're still too hot here, but we're going to send you to Berlin
and we're going to pay you. This is one of the few places where
it's acknowledged that he's sent to Berlin and he's paid something like fifty pounds a
month to live there and report on what's going on. Berlin in nineteen thirty
and thirty two is a very interesting place for a number of obvious reasons.
But that's what they do. They come in tell him to shut up and
say we'll give you some money, we'll send you off to Germany, but
you must keep your mouth shut. And there's the question, is he's bankrupted
nineteen thirty four. The Nina Hamlet case destroys Wes Bryans of his finances.
So what does he live on for the rest of his life? Who pays
his bills? Who pays for the little packet of heroin he gets from the
Harley Street pharmacist every week. Well, the answer to that, you consider
it is ultimately it's paid for by His majesty. Okay, through the number
of particular cutouts in that way, but that's part of the deal. Will
take care of you. Look, we'll even provide you with a girlfriend.
So Pat Doherty shows up. I don't think Pat Doherty was ever romantically interested
in him. I also doubt that she ever actually had his child. I
think she had someone else's child, Robin. That's who her actor or her
lover was. Who Robin Thine was am I six? So she who does
Pat Doherty go to work for during World War two? British Intelligence? The
same as Curly. They're all in this together. So they send in a
controller. In this case, they send in Thine and his girlfriend. She
romances Curly. She takes care of the old guy, does the rest for
it, but she's essentially there to watch over him and to make sure that
he behaves himself well. And so the reason that I bring this up the
Vision and Voice, is because you had mentioned the act being in nineteen eleven,
and that is exactly the same year the Vision and Voice was published.
And so I wondered if that was like a to British intelligence, like,
you know, I have this information, I've coded it, I'm putting it
out there kind of like a daunte because he almost seemed like the biggest troller.
Really he was the biggest troll, and so it almost seems like this
was his you know, way of doing that. These are my my theories
that have no substance. There's a dance going on between them. I mean,
he had information that had he gone public, well, they could have
been embarrassing. Probably not much more than that. I mean, one of
the things that he could have spilled the beings on was the degree to which
British intelligence spy on the Americans during World War One as well, and which
they did. I mean, no one is fair game from that. Yeah.
The another guy I've one of my other unhealthy interests is the fellow who
was actually the head of what we would think of as a parallel British Agency
m I six in New York. In that period, it is Sir William
Wiseman and Wiseman in writing about British intelligence activities in neutral America through the war
and even after the war begins when they become allies. You know, he's
writing to his superiors, writing to Mansfield coming back in London, who's the
head of the whole shebang, and says, you know, the Americans are
allies, but they don't know all of what we've done, and they never
will know. So there are allies, but we carry on things that are
completely secret from them. And in fact, at one point Wiseman actually moves
nominally away from the head of the SIS station, places it in the hands
of his subordinate, and then forms a separate secret organization that the Americans will
know nothing about, so that there is a kind of you know, Wiseman
controls his own intelligence cell which is separate from the main one. And so
what's he doing? What was the whole purpose? You know, something something
that the Yankees weren't supposed to ever know about. And if Crawley had any
kind of knowledge of those things, well that could be you know, embarrassing,
that could cause those kind of and that maybe that's one of the things
that he sort of has in his arsenal, because he could one day just
decide to take those consequences, and you know, and those consequences might be
that he would be cut off without any money and completely ostracize and the worst
place they'd kill it. But if you're willing to take that chance, he
could do it. And they know that. That's my argument would be,
and that's why again in twenty nine, they would pull him back, give
him money, give him another assignment, just keep him. But his whole
complaint was that, you know, they just feed him enough to keep him
from starving. They would never really his view, I think was was of
immense ingratitude for what it was that he'd done. He could never publicly take
credit for this because his view was that, you know, I served the
Crown, I actually did these things when I can, but I can never
talk about them. I can never publicly acknowledge about them, and instead I
have to live the rest of my life being looked upon as a semi trader
or as an outright trader for what I did, which isn't true, and
I can never take credit for that, and giving me anything to compensate for
it, right, he would. His basic view was that he'd been screwed,
and he had because that's what intelligence agencies will do to you. So
there's a couple of things in your book that made me think that there's a
and I know it sounds like a cliche to use this word, but the
word is Illuminati because you have this inglestat connection with Eckerthausen, You have this
idea of the of this Jesuit uh influence. And then and then when you
go into what happened with Mathers, I mean, at one point you're talking
about Yates not wanting him to even be uh initiated, right, foreign Yates
don't want him initiated, so he rushes over to mather to Mathers and has
him initial has him initiate him, and then they go try to storm the
castle basically, and it ends up getting him and Mathers basically kicked out of
the order. And then, I mean you could think of it as being
effectively what he wanted to have happened was a goldenn who dispersed. But this
whole Jacobite element that they're saying is part of Mathers, Well, that would
have been part of the the uh, the Illuminati quote quote unquote English thing
too, because they fomented the French the French Revolution. I mean, that's
that's who those guys were. So it's kind of interesting that it makes me
think that he's wrapped up in it in a different way too, and that
might be the reason why throughout his life he was getting in some sort of
you know, I don't know what you would call that, a little a
little bit of a pension, I guess because he's, uh, he's got
some he's got some connections. He has a perfect uh pedigree for it,
being being from an elite family that has a perfect cover. They are Francis,
and so are freaking most of the people in the UH, in the
orders, in the Illuminati, because once once that connection happened in the seventeen
eighties, there there was no there's not really of a difference between the Jesuit
and the Francas at that point, and it just it just it all kind
of makes too much sense that there was something else going on there and why
he would be involved in so many of these lodges too, because I think
he was old blood in a sense. It could be yeah, yeah,
I mean that that's not a that's not a definite answer, because I don't
think there is a definite answer, right, Yeah. The thing you have
to do, I think the other side of not pushing your narrative too far,
not not believing your own bullshit to a degree, is always keeping mind
that what you're dealing with here is simply a realm of possibilities. Yeah.
But I missions they're kind of interesting because of these type of elements that we're
trying to place a finger on, like why was he getting this money?
You know, and like other reasons like why was he in these lodges if
you had a you know, a the whole, the whole, the family
thing is what really gets me is what the brethrens are really about. What
was he to begin with? Right exactly? So he presumably the place he
would have been recruited or he would have been spotted, was it Cambridge when
he was in college? Yea, And because that's the usual, I mean
Oxford and Cambridge were the you know, that was the finishing schools for the
British elite. I mean that's you know, his whole idea. He was
going to go there, and he was going to go into the diplomatic service.
And but there was one of the jobs, one of the auxiliary jobs
of faculty and other people, was to keep an eye out for people who
could be useful in other areas. And this, you know, this,
this is going back to a period when British intelligence as we know it now
was, it was in a much more amorphous form. I mean six really
don't come along until nineteen oh nine, so they're not around in nineteen hundred,
they're not around in nineteen ninety. What you had were things like well,
you know, every the Foreign Office ran intelligence operations, the War Office
did, Naval intelligence did as well, but they were much less institutionalized they
were later on, but it was there. I mean, there's always spying
which is taking place, and there's always a lookout for people who were capable
for it. So what you would be doing is, you know, one
of the guys you know, a couple of generations later, you know,
right under John Leacarey. We'll talk about how he's recruited in university's always almost
always in university, and you know what you're sort of looking for our people
who have what it could be called a a flexible view of things. Because
one of the things that we'll first have to be explained to you if you're
going to go into that work is you're going to have to be prepared to
do things. One of the first things you're gonna have to prepare to lie
a lot. Everyone live a law will begin with the fact that you can
never really talk about what it is that you do, so you'll have to.
So you must lie, and if necessary, you have to be willing
to kill. And you can't get a lot of qualms about that point.
So when it comes up you you know, we don't want any sort of
conscience gonna be an on this. And through a you know, part of
the whole sort of you know, the tutoring process at universities, much of
it was kind of one on one. People would get to know you very
well, and one one of the person you know put it is that,
you know, the typical sort of came undergraduate experience was it was as much
a kind of psychoanalysis as it was education. That's how they wow, can
you everybody else do that? Or is it just me? Exactly? You're
crazy? All right? So that other the other thing that is related to
what you're talking about, with this one on one the minerval of the Minerva
in the they weren't even they didn't even know the name of their of their
organization, but it was when Whyslop was in control of this, they would
only have one contact throughout their entire you know, maneerval period which could last
up to three or three to five years, and they wouldn't know anybody else
who was also in the order. So this kind of is like that same
isolation thing where that's like basically it's a time period where they're analyzing. Like
even when they went to study up on the thing, they could only read
at that mentor's house. They couldn't take anything with them, and they couldn't
write anything down, but they would have to produce a for them based on
what they learned, and then they would assess what they interpreted this stuff to
me to see whether or not they were, you know, of use and
if they were the right type of mindset for what they were looking for.
But this would go on for like years, and this was this whole isolation
type of thing where they were doing this with people. It's very similar to
psychoanalysis that you're talking about, Like with the Cambridge thing. It's they have
the same structure. And I think universities have been using you know, like
you said, like the fraternities and things like that for a very long time
for that very reason. I think probably I don't know, I don't know
what predates what, but there they seem to be hand in hand with these
lodges. Well, there are things that to add in a certain element of
personal experience in this. When I was in grad school at U see Santa
Barbara, I was, I was actually in a The thing I was in
with in the history department was then called the Balkan Studies Program, So it
wasn't a Russian studies program, but the closest we had the ball So that
just covered all of Eastern Europe. So we're in that, and so the
Bulkans, you know, my main professor was a Yugoslav, you know,
and it was an anti communist Serbian emigray who had come over and gotten a
job. And you know, you found lots of Eastern European anti communist emmigreys
around things like that. Who else are you going to come across? So
keep in mind this is the nineteen seventies, late Cold War and you've got
I think, which specializes in training people in the history of what was then
Iron Curtain countries. So the whole concept was that if you really get into
Bulgarian history, then at some point you're going to go to Bulgaria. Right,
this is the kind of idea. Who would possibly be interested in that,
who would be interested in the people who were interested in that field,
who could possibly see any kind of future utilitary value, and someone who would
want to go and travel and observe in the Eastern block. Right, can
narrow that down to three little letters, and I'll leave it to you to
guess which ones they are. Now. I got to admit, when I
was there at the time, although we were aware of all of those things,
it never really occurred to me that that was kind of going on around
me. And it was, you know, it was just sort of oblivious
to it in some way. And it was only many years later in the
whole set of circumstances. Excuse me that someone who was there at the same
time, and they go, well, you know who the CIA spotter was,
right, I go, No, I don't think, so they go,
and I'm not going to use the person's name. I don't think they're
around anymore. But it was suffice to say it was a retired military off
officer who was kind of there taking a degree but never really seemed to finish
one. And it was a very friendly and nice guy and was always asking
lots of questions about what you're interested in in the arrest and then it was
like, yeah, that was it. So that's why he invited his to
parties at his household. Oh yeah, and it was. And I don't
know, they didn't recruit me. It's a mother, but that yes,
And it would it would be obvious that that was going on and there was
someone who was there it was doing it. But unless you were paying attention
at the time, it was just this guy the other things that are taking
place. Sometimes I think people think like we popped out as conspiracy theorists.
It's like, no, when I was like eighteen nineteen twenty, I wasn't
thinking I don't worry about the CIA then, right, you know what I'm
saying, Yeah, you're in another world. You're thinking about school and ass
I had a healthy just taste for the for government because I always messed around
with a lot of officials by a lot of officials who carry badges. But
as far as you know, going too deep into anything, I definitely had
like a moment in twenty eleven where I think that I actually started like to
really like impact me to where I couldn't I couldn't ignore it if I wanted
to. So it's kind of interesting. But we are almost at the two
hour mark. Rick, you say that you are working on some new projects.
Are they books? Are they blogs? Like we see? Can I
can? I? Can I do my shameless self promotion? Now? I
don't have to, but you know that doesn't really come naturally to me,
so I have to think about it as well. All right, shameless self
promotion, Well, there are the books, okay, which you don't make
any money off of book, so it's not too shameless. Secret Age at
sixty sixty six, my biography of Sydney Riley, Trust No. One.
My least favorite of my books and the most recent is Wall Street and the
Russian Revolution, which, if you're skullduggery that sounds like Anthony Sutton type it
is. It is my sort of my take off from from Anthony Sutton,
and I wanted to stay very close. But it's not the Bolshevik Revolution it's
the Russian Revolution. And I would say the book is not a refutation of
something, it's an expansion of everything he was working out, and I think
a clarification in that regard. And I also my first book I ever wrote
was a biography of an obscure Russian Revolution area that everybody should know about.
They don't by the name of Forres savan Kov. But if you want to
understand how I got started on this whole dark path, that would be one
place it would begin. But since then, there are the books, if
anybody wan looks for them, there are there are lots of articles which are
floating around about things and uh in everything from journals like American Communist History.
No, you don't have to be a communist, but you can be.
Uh, it's about the history of the party. Uh, to Intelligence and
National Security Journal of Intelligence and Counter Intelligence. You know, just google my
name and you'll you'll find them out there. But what I've been working on,
what I really want to plug, which actually does make some money,
are work that I've done video series for Wonderum or the Great Courses. So
again you can look under Great Courses or their new corporate name Wondrium and I
have done three courses to date for them. They're cold courses. They're basically
series. It's you know, me sitting around talking with visuals. Well,
this is one. I'm in this one. It's not my particular. There's
the Real History of Secret Societies, there is Crimes of the Century, and
there are Secrets of the Occult. I am currently working on one that deals
with great Villains of History, or at least villains. And then there are
the two other series of Secret World of Espionage and The Decoding True Crime.
So that is that is my ouvra of work, I guess for great courses.
Yeah, so I would plug those. Real History Secret Societies was done
in sort of collaboration with History Channel and A and E. So he has
slightly higher production values for that reason. But I'm happy with all of them.
And I think if you're interested in them. Now, for someone something
like SS of the Occult, if you are well versed in occultism, it's
likely to be occultism one on one. Okay, so it deals with some
you know, you've got twenty four episodes, but you're trying to discuss a
topic which is complicated, right, nuanced, and also keep in mind you
have to do that in each episode in thirty minutes. So this is the
idea. We're going to talk about rituals. Okay, I got thirty minutes
to do that. So what kind of examples are going to have? So
there's a lot of things that tend to be left on the cutting room floor,
some interesting ones, but I think it. You know, I've gotten
good, good feedback on that as well. I've also done some uh you
know, I have my fingers in the pies of various sort of movie or
TV thing which if they ever come to Fruition then we'll tell talk about those.
Very cool but one of the one of my one of my favorite things
that I keep trying and I'll just bring this up and hope that someone will
hear about it and they'll be interested enough to produce it. It would be
a series called Flying Saucers and Secret Agents, so which deals much more.
It's not about aliens in that sense as it is about you know, our
three letter agency friends and yeah, faking things for the most part. That's
just you know, some things are real, some things they're not either.
That's one of those things that I would that would be sort of my favorite
thing. To do if I could, but you don't always get to do
that. Very cool, and we'd love to have you back on again too,
because I talked and there's still still a lot more that I would have
to ask myself, Chris, I'm sure you guys have more questions too.
It was I held back saying I didn't want to take them the show.
Yeah, it was really good, A lot of good stuff, I really
very much. You know, maybe next time we can talk about, you
know, Jack Parsons. Why I think Jack Parsons was a spot the old
Ron Hubbard and clear I think I think I think al Ron Hubbard was as
well. So there times they are you know, so all right that iconic
picture of Parsons holding what looks like a coffee can with a wire on it,
it's just so ridiculous, like oh that makes things why It's like,
come on, guys, uh too funny and uh, I guess we would
have to address the question. And did he in fact have sex with his
dog and his mother? His mother? Probably his dog, I know know,
dog's not telling dog exact the mother, you know, she and her
some they were close. Very is here again, this is what you can
say they had it abnormally close relationship. How that seems to be a roughly
factual statement. How abnormally that's a matter of opinion, it's a matter of
conjecture. Really yeah, uh, around the table real quick and just anyone
any final thoughts, questions real quick and then no, no. I thought
that was really great. I really would like to actually get more into probably
Parsons and and Harvard, and I think there's a lot of good one for
sure. Even if we could venture into like I don't know what we how
much we all have that I would do some research on this myself. But
like the jumping off point there with Hubbard with scientology and then the processed church
that would be interesting and the four four P or four pie coult Yeah,
yeah there, but yeah, definitely all right, Well, thank you so
much, sir. I really appreciate your time. Get all your links into
the yes, and hopefully we'll talk again. Yeah, this is a lot
of fun. Thank you so much. Bye, bye bye, And we
were out.