WEBVTT

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You are listening to the IFH podcast
Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting

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00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:14.000
podcasts, just go to IFH podcast
network dot com. Welcome to the Bulletroof

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00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:19.120
screen Rinning Podcast, Episode number three
hundred. Life is full of challenges.

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How you handle these challenges It's what
builds character. Never be afraid to be

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who you are. Aaron Brockovich broadcasting
from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood

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when we really should be working on
that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting

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Podcast, showing you the craft and
business of screenwriting while teaching you how to

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make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's
your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome,

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Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof
Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host

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Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show
is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. Now.

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Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof
Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind

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of project you are in the goals
of the project you are, so we

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actually break it down by three categories
micro budget, indie film, market and

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studio film. There's no reason to
get coverage from a reader that used to

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our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, WME, NBC,

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many more. So if you need
your screenplay or TV script covered by professional

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readers, head on over to cover
my screenplay dot com. Well, guys,

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Today on the show, we have
Academy Award nominee Susannah Grant, and

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Susannah wrote the Oscar winning film Aaron
Brockovich, as well as Twenty eight Days

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with Sandra Bullock, in Her Shoes
with Cameron Diaz, Catch and Release with

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Jennifer Garden, Her Charlotte's Webb,
The Soloist with Robert Downey and Jamie Fox,

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and so so, so much more. Susanna and I have a deep

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sit down conversation about her process,
her journey as a screenwriter, and advice

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that she gives to up and coming
screenwriters trying to break into the business today.

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So, without any further ado,
let's dive in. I'd like to

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welcome to the show. Susannah Grant, how you doing, Susanna, I'm

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great, Alex, how are you. I'm doing very good. Thank you

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so much for coming on the show. I've been a fan of your work

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from twenty eight days too in her
Shoes. I love romantic comedies of course,

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Aaron Brockovich, and even Pocahonnas too, when I was good and well

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in the nineties. I have I'm
sure you do. I'm sure you do.

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But even but you were coming in
on Pocahonnas. You were coming in

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at that wave of the nineties,
late eighties, early and end the Little

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Mermaid, Lion King a Ladd and
it was just printing money. Yeah,

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they were. They were doing really
beautiful work and bringing back the movie musical

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which was fantastic, and so I
was really happy to be a part of

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it. And you know, it's
not how, it's not how we would

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make a story about Native Americans today, which shows you that we've Yeah,

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there have been some advances, um
there, but I learned a ton,

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I learned a ton. I have
not gone back into animation because animation is

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not covered by the Guild. So, um, oh it isn't. I

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don't know, it's not. It's
actually covered by a different union oddly,

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which has to do with the history
of animation. But um, no writing

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for writing for us. So you
know, I look at Linda Wolverton,

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who wrote these huge Disney movies,
and the amount of money she has not

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received for her work that she would
have been a Union project anyway, that's

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another story. But I have not
worked in animation since largely because of that.

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But um, but it's a really
rigorous place to start because the tradition

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of animation is that the story artists
tell the story storyboard artists. That was

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how it was done early in the
day at Disney, and Howard Ashman and

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Alan Menkin brought in writers and that
was the beginning of this sort of renaissance

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that they that they brought in.
So we were writers. I had two

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partners on that, Karl Binder and
Philip Zevnik, and but there were also

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story artists who considered themselves writers.
So you would there was a lot of

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tension in it, which was uh, you know, good and bad,

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but there was Um, it was
incredibly rigorous. You know, there's no

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scene in that movie that was written
any fewer than thirty thirty five times.

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It was just over and over and
over for your first gig. It's really

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good. It's a it's like a
boot camp, you know. How does

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I mean seriously? Because I was
going to ask you about Polkahans, But

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since we started there while and we
just keep going because I have friends who

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are animators. I've been inside the
Disney studios. I see how they work,

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and he told me all about the
process and the directors and how they

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work with the storyboard artist. But
it must be frustrating as a writer to

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have storyboard art basically storyboard artist dictating
story as a writer, and it must

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have been just been this really interesting
thing to deal with as a as a

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young writer as well. Yeah.
Well, and I haven't been there in

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the sort of post Pixar universe,
and you know, I don't know how

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they're doing it now. And at
the time, you know, the animation

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tradition is very profound and sacred to
people. So you don't want to dishonor

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that I was. I was still
in film school, you know when I

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got that job. So did you
get the job? You know? I

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my first year of film school,
I won the Nickel Fellowship, which is

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a fellowship that the Academy gives,
and that just gives your work more visibility,

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and then you start meeting folks.
And I did, and I had

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I was in school. I was
still in school. I had a second

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year of film school. So I
would get offered jobs that just smelled like

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really bad jobs that would go nowhere. And I had the luxury of being

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able to say no because I was
in film. I was in school,

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you know, so it had to
be appealing enough to pull me away from

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getting my masters, which I want
to get. And then eventually, you

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know, after I said no to
a few things from Disney Animation, I

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learned quickly that saying no doesn't mean
they'll never ask you again. It just

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means they'll offer you something better.
So eventually they came to me, I

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mean it came to me with some
ideas like we don't even know what this

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is. It's just a word,
you know, wales, whales, And

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I thought, no, I don't
that that movie is never ever getting me.

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By the way, all the things
they pitched me before this, I

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think there were about five of them. None have gotten made. So really,

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I actually had a wonderful teacher in
film school named Jerry Cass, and

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I would sort of float it by
him, and he'd go, now,

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don't do it, don't do it. Um. And then they called one

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day and said this one has a
release date, and I thought, mat,

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all right, all right, jock
out of film school early for something,

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the whole polka. Yeah, that's
who the whole polkahonest thing. I

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think it works. Yeah, I
think we have a release date. It's

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gonna go. Yeah. Yeah.
So you know, I was new,

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and I was green, and I
was humble, and I had two other

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writers who were great pals and great
writers, and uh, you know,

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anytime it gets rough, for god's
sake, you're doing a Disney animated movie,

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and you're you know, I was. I was never unaware of how

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fortunate I was, so even on
the difficult days, I was happy to

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be there. Yeah, it's it's
it's a magical place. I've been in

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and many times of Disney animation,
and it is. It's a beautiful,

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wonderful And I've heard stories. I
remember Tangled was in development for ten years.

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Everything on it I saw that,
I saw the art was a completely

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different from what we saw a year
before release. Stripped it all start again,

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and they did that with every single
movie since. No White still hard.

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Yeah, they are not precious.
And the great thing is when you're

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working on one of them. You
know, when we were working on Pocahontas,

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Lion King was in its finishing stages, so we had the advantage of

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being adjacent to that work, which
was tremendous. And then Hunchback was behind

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us, so we were aware of
that as well, and so, um,

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you know you're had a part of
this continuum. Um, it was

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a magical time. It was that
that those that five to ten year window

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of Disney animation was pretty remarkable.
It's hard for people to understand because it

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was pretty much dead in the water. Yes, it was until Little Mermaid

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showed up, and then we're like, oh, okay, until Alan Menckin

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and Howard Ashman came in and said
Katzenberg and Katzenberg came in and started doing

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some stuff. And there was some
professional meeting. Was a meeting with Jeffrey

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I think it was at seven thirty
in the morning on Mother's Day Sunday.

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Of course, of course there was
some rigor to that, to say the

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least. So so your first writing
gig was out of school, was straight

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into Disney Studios, working with it
So after you've done with that whole process,

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you then started working on television.
You went into Party five, which

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you and I really hadn't had a
planned to work in television, you know.

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I my sort of house of worship
growing up, as it was,

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was a movie movie theater. We'll
be right back after a word from our

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sponsor, and now back to the
show. So that felt like the sort

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of form of American storytelling I was
dying to be a part of and contribute

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to. And that was a conversation
I wanted to be a part of.

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But I got this pilot shown to
me that was made by Chris Kaiser and

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Amy Littmann called Party of Five,
and it was beautiful and it felt like

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my sensibility and they were the best
people in the world, and I didn't,

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you know, And so I went
and did that for a bit.

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Yeah, you did that for a
few years. So let me ask you

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what were some of the biggest lessons
working in that writer's room. And really

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kind of because it's one thing is
being a feature writer and another one is

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being a TV writer. It's it's
a grind. It's a daily grind with

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television as opposed to features. In
writing, which is take your time.

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You can think. It's also a
daily grind. It is no, no,

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it is no. I was lonely
or daily grind, right, But

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a lot of times if you're doing
a spec or something, you could you

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could be on that spec for five
years. This is like there's a deadline

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and you've gotta go, you gotta
do there is Yeah, it's funny.

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When I look back at it,
I really think of the lessons I learned

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less being about craft and UM being
more about how do you how do you

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choose to live this writer's life.
That was a remarkably wonderful group of people

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who were kind to each other and
supportive of each other and funny and you

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could you could share your idiocy with
them and they would only love you more,

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you know. And this is exactly
the kind of environment you want for

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a beautiful, collaborative UM workplace.
And it's sort of set in my head

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that as a bar and I've really
actually been quite fortunate and that I've had

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very few professional collaborations that have not
felt like that. I mean, I've

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had them, you know, and
you sort of work through them as quickly

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as possible. But but that was
the biggest lesson there that for me,

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not for everyone. There are people
who thrive in chaos and conflict and their

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best work comes out of it.
For me, that is the environment that

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brings out my best work. So
that was one lesson and the other was

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you just keep working on it till
it's good enough. You know, you

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just keep working on it till it's
good enough. And I would put the

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scenes up on my wall that because
you sort of outlined it together, and

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I would have a bar for myself. I wouldn't put a red check mark

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on it saying it was done until
I had surprised myself in the scene and

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turned it into something that I hadn't
anticipated, or found something within it that

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I haven't anticipated would be there from
the outline, you know. So it

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just I found, I guess,
a bar that made the work feel alive

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and interesting as opposed to flat and
dead. You know the scene where X

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happens, Well, if it's a
scene or X happens, how can you

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make that alive? How can you
surprise yourself? How can you surprise your

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viewer? How can you find an
element of it that you didn't know was

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going to be there? Going in? You know which is the most exciting

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stuff to watch where humanity sort of
peeks out unexpectedly. So you mentioned that,

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you know you've obviously had some not
so harmonious collaborations. I think in

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the business in general, we all
have that. We all have to deal

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with that at one point or another. Do you have any advice on how

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to walk that path a bit?
And depending on collaborators and who you're working

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with, because we're talking about there's
the difference between a PA collaborating with a

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director and a writer collaborating with a
director or an executive producer on the show

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things like that, how do you
deal at that higher level when you're with

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collaborators, Boy, it really all
depends on who that collaborator is and what

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their particular approach to work and a
work environment is. UM. I've had

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ones where I've I've worked with a
director where it felt like, how to

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say this delicately, ego was a
big, big, big presence in the

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room at the no and UM,
and then just by sort of sitting there,

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it felt like there were three people
in the room at the beginning,

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me, the director, and the
ego. But if you just sit there

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calmly and say, and just don't
don't don't dance with it, you know,

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don't don't dance with it, don't
engage it, don't fight it.

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Just it. If if the creative
vision matches gradually, sometimes that will just

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ease its way out of the room, you know. But sometimes it won't.

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Sometimes it's just like sometimes you are
working with a chaos monster and you

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will never see eye to eye.
You know. There are a couple of

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projects where I look back on it
and I realized I was holding onto my

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job so hard that I lost grip
of the of the film, you know.

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And you know, there's one movie
I look back on and I think,

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oh, I should have walked.
Not for me, but maybe maybe

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if I had walked the director this
is an original too, Like I would

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never walk off an original, but
maybe if I had walked. I mean,

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the director is always going to win, right, Maybe if I had

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walked, they would have found something
that wasn't what I wanted it to be,

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but was better than what it ended
up being, which was sort of

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a mishmash, you know, of
try a mishmash between that director's idea of

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what it should be in mine,
you know, and something like that happens.

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How blamed are you as a writer
to the good and bad of the

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good and bad of the sort of
director worship? Is that not so much?

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I mean, it was a good
spec, it was a good it

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was a good original script, and
it wouldn't have gone into production if it

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hadn't been. And but it's just
one of those things. If you guys

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you don't share a vision, sometimes
it won't come out the way you want

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it to. And a lot of
times I've noticed is that ego when the

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ego isn't that I love that term. By the way, that their egos

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the third first thing in the room. It's because of either fear or insecurity.

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And once they feel that, like, oh, this person is not

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going to hurt me, that we're
on the same page, it does kind

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of recess a little bit. Yeah. I had the really wonderful good fortune

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of working with Curtis Hampson. He
was just most wonderful man and wonderful film

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and he had a I think I
learned a lot from him because he would

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point out something in the script didn't
quite work, quite makes sense, and

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I would say, yeah it does, Yeah it does. I'd fight and

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hold on and then he'd say,
always lean in really kindly and say no,

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no, no, Susannah, this
is a good thing. This means

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we get to go find a better
thing together. It's great. And he

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would see every problem and he would
always say, no, no, no,

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this is a good thing. And
you make a whole movie with someone

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who thinks that way, and it
starts to inform your own thinking and you

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start to see problems as good things. And and I think that does feel

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less threatening sometimes to partners if if
you walk in saying, I know that

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things can always get better. Let's
keep making it better till we run out

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of time, you know. And
that's that's kind of the TV mentality as

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well as a TV writer, because
that's right, Yeah, not as much

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the screen, not as much the
features writers. From my experience and from

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what I have who I've talked to, it's not as much it should be,

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but as well as much sometimes.
I mean, feature writers are so

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rarely given the opportunity to have that
too in their work, so and often

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have the experience of it not getting
better or not getting closer to what they

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had wanted it to be at the
outset, but further from it. So

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you know, working with Curtis was
it was a blessing because that's not the

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norm, I think, And he
was incredibly lovely and generous. He was

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wonderful. He's a wonderful, wonderful
filmmaker. Now, you know, you

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did write a little film called Aaron
brock something or other the other a little

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while ago. And how did that
project Aaron Brockovich come to to life?

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Because you are credited the only writer
on that, So I'm assuming this is

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an original or were you high it
wasn't original? Yeah, it was,

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but it was I had I had
just written ever After and it was very

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at which I love. And I'm
not the only writer on that. The

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director came in and he did some
rewriting with his partner, so they're pre

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credited writers on that. But but
I had just done that and it was

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I love it. But it was
very sort of precious and delicately. I

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mean, it's she's meaty too,
which is good. But I just wanted

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to I just had in my head
that the next thing I wanted to write

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was I had this phrase kick ass
broad in my head and I don't know

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why. I was like, I
don't know, I just sa kick ass

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broad and I went to have a
general meeting at Jersey Pictures and Gail Lyon

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was there and told me this story. And they had met Aaron through a

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chiropractor, because you know, that
car accident that starts the movie actually walked

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Aaron's back out and she then would
go to a chiropractor. Well, Michael

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Schamberg, who was like the president
or something of Jersey at the time,

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his wife went to the same chiropractor. So that's how they heard Aaron's Of

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course, we'll be right back after
a word from our sponsor. And now

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back to the show. Although they
had optioned it, and I was,

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you know, I don't know that. I mean, maybe Pocahontas had come

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out, but it certainly there was
nothing that would suggest that I was the

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right person for the film except for
that I knew that I was. And

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and they, I think they said
at the time, we'll actually we're out.

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We're out to Cali Cory, all
right, all right. So in

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two weeks I called up and said, Hey, just wondering if you'd heard

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from Callie, and they'd say,
yes, yes, now we're out to

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Scott Frank And I'd sit for two
weeks and then I'd call back, and

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it was I think my polite persistence
wore them down. I just kept calling

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and saying, did that other superstar
writer pass yet? And eventually enough of

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them passed, and I had checked
in often enough that they said, all

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right, well, we'll let you
meet her. And then Aaron and I

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got on like a house on fire, so so and it just and just

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took off from there. Um,
there's and there's the dialogue in that movie

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is so beautiful. I love I
still remember that scene of like numbers.

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I'll tell you some numbers that whole
I was just sitting there in awe because

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I was like, that's such a
wonderful come back to a guy obviously hitting

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on her and this it was so
so beautiful and Julia Roberts was their performances

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and the scene and just wonderful,
and you know, but everybody directed it

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perfectly, And you know that's one
of those. Yeah. I had two

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films in production at the same time, and one of them I was on

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the set many of the days,
um, and the other one, and

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I was also pregnant, so I
wasn't there that much, honestly, And

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and and then Aaron Brockett was shooting
at the same time, and I was

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never on that set, and Aaron
Brockovich looks exactly like the movie I had

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in my head, and the one
where I was on the set every day

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looks nothing like the movie that I
had in my head. So, you

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know, does being on the set
make a difference? I don't know.

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You know, I don't know that
scan sometimes but if it's not the right

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team, So why do you get
they got? It was Stephen got what

295
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you were doing and that you guys
were both mind melded. Apparently that got

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that vision. He saw what I
saw, And I don't know how much

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of it was suggested on the page
and how much of it just was the

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luck of um, you know,
two people who who happened to see something

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the same way, though they didn't
really talk about it that much, you

300
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know. So what was it like
working with Stephen Because that was a heck

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of a year for him, if
I remember correctly, He also Traffic Try

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So did that other little movie called
Traffic the same year. It was like,

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well, it's unheard of what he
was, what was going on in

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his career at the time, and
he's a legendary filmmaker and he's he's a

305
00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:14.720
fantastical film how I didn't work that
closely with him, so really it was

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just not at all. Really that's
fascinating. I mean you met with him

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obviously a bit. Yeah, right, I did. Yeah, you met

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00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:23.480
with him, but he just read
the script. It is like, I'm

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good, let's go. Yeah.
Basically, I mean nothing, nothing's that

310
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simple, but yeah, fair enough, fair enough. Um. So then

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the Oscars come around and you get
a nomination. I did, And what

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is what's that like at that point
in your career You're only like, what

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five six years in at this point? I don't know was I don't know,

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I guess I guess it was interesting. At the at the premiere,

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UM, I saw Amy Pascal,
who was always has always been extraordinarily lovely

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and right, and you know,
we've had a nice um, done a

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00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:04.720
lot of nice work together. But
I saw her. This was early on

318
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:08.720
and I knew her. And after
the premiere I was filing out of it,

319
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and she pulled me over and she
said, this never happens, and

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I thought, well, maybe it
does, and maybe it will again,

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Like she was just smelling me,
this is remarkable. Appreciate it um,

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uh, you know it's it's it's
it's wonderful, it's it's great and strange

323
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and and and you think this is, you know, something I've dreamed about

324
00:24:36.519 --> 00:24:40.880
and then also doesn't matter at all, you know. Yeah, Um,

325
00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:44.519
were you that clear Were you that
clear headed at that time in your life?

326
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Because I know as we as we
all get older, we look back

327
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and like, ah, you know, but when you're younger coming up like

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the Oscar, the Oscar, the
Oscar, you know, yeah, it's

329
00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:59.240
probably about my family of origin,
but those were not our values like growing

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00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:03.920
up, they just they just weren't
not better, not worse, they were

331
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just other. So, um,
I did you know? I brought my

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brother and sister to it, and
I thought they thought it was a kick,

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00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:15.799
you know, So it's fun.
It was a kid, it was.

334
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So it isn't like I don't want
to denigrate the Academy at all.

335
00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:26.519
It's it's a lovely thing they do, and it's it's nice and it's also

336
00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:30.759
incredibly surreal. We were sitting at
the ceremony, my husband and I and

337
00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:37.119
um, and he said, boy, if you dropped down from outer space

338
00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:42.119
into this theater, you would think
that this is our god, what an

339
00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:51.720
amazing what an amazing observation. It's
a bit of that, but it's lovely,

340
00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:55.880
and the academy is great, and
the you know, to have the

341
00:25:56.559 --> 00:26:03.000
fellowship of you know, all these
remarkable people who've told the stories that ordered

342
00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:10.240
your brain growing up and into adulthood
is just an incredible luxury. To be

343
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part of that community and to be
fair and to be fair to your husband.

344
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:18.160
He's not wrong at all. He's
not wrong at all. And in

345
00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:23.839
Hollywood, that is other than the
dollar. The Oscar is a quite close

346
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:30.119
second. If I'm not gonna stake. So you go through the ceremony,

347
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:32.799
you go through all of this,
you know, all the hooplah then because

348
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I've had many Oscar winners and Oscar
nominees on the show before, and I

349
00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:40.519
love asking what happened after? How
did the town treat you afterwards? When

350
00:26:40.599 --> 00:26:44.039
you got you know, all this
because the spotlights on you and it's there's

351
00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:48.720
a window, there's a window of
time where you're the it girl, the

352
00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:52.440
it guy. What was that light? What was that kind of journey for

353
00:26:52.559 --> 00:27:00.519
you? Honestly, it just uh
um, I'm a bit of a hustler

354
00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:10.799
and I don't ever like, honestly, any I don't like thinking about awards.

355
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:15.119
I don't have any. I mean, I'm I'm thrilled to have received

356
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:18.359
some awards in my time, but
I don't have any of them any place

357
00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:22.640
I can see them because I just
don't. I don't know that that would

358
00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:25.839
do anything good for my head.
So what I am aware of is at

359
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:29.519
it up your price, like,
it's great. Your agent asked for more

360
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:33.720
money, and I think writers should
get more money always, So if you

361
00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:37.279
can do that, if you can
bump up your price, great, I

362
00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:44.799
didn't just keep rocking and rolling because
you know, I'm I'm being more diminishing

363
00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:47.279
of it. I guess what I
mean is it probably did stuff, but

364
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:53.000
I'm so afraid of resting on laurels. And it never ever ever makes the

365
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:56.519
writing easier. In fact, I
think it might make it harder if you

366
00:27:56.599 --> 00:28:00.480
can attention to it. So,
um, you know, it doesn't make

367
00:28:00.759 --> 00:28:04.680
any difference if you were out,
you know, at the Vanity Fair party

368
00:28:04.759 --> 00:28:07.119
till to the night before you're gonna
sit down in a computer and it's not

369
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:15.240
going to be one iota easier,
not one iota. So in terms of

370
00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:22.839
my work, no difference. Yeah, it almost see the work itself.

371
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:27.000
It almost seems because again speaking to
so many who have done gone through what

372
00:28:27.079 --> 00:28:32.640
you've gone through, it seems almost
like a burden in a certain way,

373
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:38.400
because now so it wasn't a burden, you know, yeah it was exactly,

374
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:45.680
but but the the um, the
the the burden of like if you

375
00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:48.440
get it, if it gets in
your head of life, oh my god,

376
00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:51.759
what's next? All I have to
do this or I have to do

377
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:53.720
that, it does kind of tweak
with you a little bit. But one

378
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:59.799
thing I've really fascinated by talking to
so many, you know, accomplished screenwriters

379
00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:04.160
like yourself and filmmakers, they're still
in a roses in their work. They

380
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:07.839
still don't think in many ways that
they're like, it's still tough. I

381
00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:11.559
still don't think I'm good enough.
I still think someone's going to walk into

382
00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:14.519
the room at any second and go, what are you doing here? You're

383
00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:17.079
not supposed to be in here?
Security, get her out? Is that

384
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:19.279
kind of the vibe do you still
feel in many ways? Well, the

385
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:22.039
second part not anymore, you know, the second part. I mean,

386
00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:25.839
I've been doing this a long time, and I've got friends and we all

387
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:30.920
we all security is not taking you
out, No, but absolutely it's still

388
00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:38.240
challenging and you're still facing a wall
every day. But that's u A the

389
00:29:38.359 --> 00:29:44.160
fun of it. It doesn't feel
like fun, but eight is what makes

390
00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:48.400
it interesting. And B I don't
think the work is for me is much

391
00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:52.599
good without that. I think if
it's sort of like what I was saying

392
00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:56.799
earlier about what I discovered about writing
scenes in Party of five, if I

393
00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:00.759
feel like I can do something and
yeah, I'll just whip this one off.

394
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:04.079
It's not going to be good.
We'll be right back after a word

395
00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:12.440
from our sponsor and now back to
the show, it won't. And I

396
00:30:12.519 --> 00:30:21.440
always have to feel as if there's
something I'm trying to figure out, and

397
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:27.720
I like a little bit of panic
associated with my with my work. Very

398
00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:37.680
early on I knew herb Sergeant,
who's Alvin Sargeant's brother, and I was

399
00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:41.480
talking to him very very early on
in my career and he said, oh,

400
00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:44.359
yeah, every time Alvin takes a
job, he calls me up and

401
00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:45.440
says, I can't do it.
I got to give the money back.

402
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:52.119
Now, I think Alvin Sargeant has
written some of the most beautiful movies I've

403
00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:56.519
ever seen, and he was a
lovely man, and I thought, okay,

404
00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:00.000
Alvin's sargeant. It's tying himself in
knots and saying he has to give

405
00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:04.880
the money back. Maybe that is
not a glitch in the system, in

406
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:08.319
my system. Maybe that doesn't mean
I don't belong here. If Alvin Sargent

407
00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:14.480
has proceeded with that and done the
work he's done, maybe it is in

408
00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:19.319
fact an integral part of good work. So that was an early gift you

409
00:31:19.480 --> 00:31:25.200
when you're writing, do you have
the experience of sometimes being in that flow

410
00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:27.160
where when you're done writing, you
look at it and go, I don't

411
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:32.440
know who just wrote that, but
that's fantastic. I don't look at my

412
00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:34.960
work right when I write it that
carefully. What I tend to do is

413
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:38.920
look at it the next morning,
look at the prior day's work, and

414
00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:45.400
usually I go over the prior a
few days work before I start writing.

415
00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:48.680
And it is kind of exciting when
you look at something and you don't really

416
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:52.279
recognize it. It's pretty great.
It does, and it's kind of like

417
00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:56.079
what we all strive for is to
have that that flow moment that you just

418
00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:00.400
said, are there, and it
just kind of goes do you, what

419
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:02.119
is your schedule like when you write? Do you actually have a time,

420
00:32:02.599 --> 00:32:06.039
do you like, you know,
like Eric Roth has, like this time

421
00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:08.880
and understand I do. I've got
a pretty set day, you know,

422
00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:15.000
I've spent It's I'm actually just getting
back into it now because I'm finishing post

423
00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:17.920
on a movie I directed, But
it is. I have a ridiculously early

424
00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:22.160
wake up, but actually many writers
I know have this week. I get

425
00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:25.759
up at four thirty and make a
cup of coffee. I work for well,

426
00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:29.440
it used to be when when my
kids were at home, I would

427
00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:32.680
work for three hours, and then
that was long enough to get into some

428
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:37.960
sort of roof so that I could, you know, go do the breakfast

429
00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:42.680
thing, get folks off to school, okay, and come back and still

430
00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:45.559
feel as if I was invested in
work. Anything less than that, it

431
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:50.160
would be hard to get back into
it. So I needed about three hours

432
00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:52.839
to feel like, oh, I
got to get back to work, you

433
00:32:52.920 --> 00:33:00.160
know, And then I usually write
till about midday ish, you know,

434
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:06.200
twelve one something like that, and
then m and then you know, business

435
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:13.440
stuff emails fucking round. What happens
in the afternoon, fair enough? So

436
00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:17.119
let me let me ask you a
very simple question, what what is it

437
00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:21.359
about writing that you love? What
keeps you? Because this is you know,

438
00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:25.839
it's tough. Very early on in
life, like as a kid,

439
00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:30.200
I got this idea that this whole
life thing was a massive rip off,

440
00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:36.720
that you only got to live one
of them, like there's there are infinite

441
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:40.200
numbers of This was before the notion
of multi versus entered our consciousness. And

442
00:33:40.359 --> 00:33:44.599
who knows, maybe that changes everything, but but I thought, it's just

443
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:47.160
a rip off. I only get
to be me, and I don't get

444
00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:52.440
to be that cowboy, and I
don't get to be that, you know,

445
00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:58.240
that sanitation worker, and I don't
get to be that Like how is

446
00:33:58.759 --> 00:34:02.359
that seems so unfair? Air?
It just seemed like someone had presented a

447
00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:07.079
massive boot, massive buffet and said
you can have one shrimp and that's it,

448
00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:15.199
you know, and so um,
just imagining other existences started really really

449
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:19.920
early. And for a while I
thought, uh, for a little while,

450
00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:23.920
I thought I might be and I
might go at it via acting um

451
00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:29.280
and I did that for a little
bit after school, but it just disposition

452
00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:35.880
only the life didn't work for me, and and and I got I got

453
00:34:36.039 --> 00:34:37.880
bored doing it, you know,
I do a show two nights in a

454
00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:40.360
row, and by the third night, I think I just did this,

455
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:45.880
Why am I doing it? So
you're look really, I didn't have the

456
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:51.960
right mentality of you're looking abroad every
night. Life on Broadways not for you.

457
00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:54.000
It's basically no like anything more than
a two night run. And I

458
00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:59.840
was out very short career. Yeah, but then I was I was,

459
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:02.519
you know, fairly lost in life
and didn't know what I was going to

460
00:35:02.599 --> 00:35:06.119
do. Because I didn't I also
thought I might be a journalist, which

461
00:35:06.199 --> 00:35:12.880
is also another way to sort of
gather up experience, and then that didn't

462
00:35:12.920 --> 00:35:15.960
seem like the thing either, and
then I just like, I moved to

463
00:35:16.039 --> 00:35:19.719
San Francisco, which is what you
do when you have no idea what you're

464
00:35:19.719 --> 00:35:22.639
doing, because no one else there
knew what they were doing either, and

465
00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:29.599
I was really lonely. So I
tried writing a script and I thought,

466
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:32.079
oh, oh this I could do. This, I could do for a

467
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:39.360
long time, like just keep creating
a world over and over of my imagination.

468
00:35:39.639 --> 00:35:44.800
Yeah, that's beautiful, that's really
beautiful. It seems like you had

469
00:35:44.840 --> 00:35:49.719
a thirst for life and this is
the way you kind of suck the bone

470
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:52.199
marrow, the marrow out of the
boat of life in many ways. Yeah,

471
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:55.519
yeah, I mean, I do
think it's important to say they were

472
00:35:55.679 --> 00:36:00.360
fairly torturous years finding that, you
know. And I talk to a lot

473
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:07.480
of young people who sort of,
you know, just just are hungry,

474
00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:15.960
understandably hungry to figure out how to
get to a place. And you really

475
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:19.840
have to go through some gnarly stuff
to find out who you really want to

476
00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:22.519
be. And and maybe they always
want to say, listen to yourself,

477
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:25.880
maybe this will be what you want
to be, but maybe something else will

478
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:30.159
come out of the blue, and
be open to it. Keep your ears

479
00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:32.480
open, because if I had just
had like my nose to the grindstone with

480
00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:39.519
acting, would have a very unhappy
life, you know. So so you

481
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:45.960
know, the uncertainty and the fear
and the panic and sleepless nights and all

482
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:49.119
that, I think they're important to
pay attention to, and they can lead

483
00:36:49.159 --> 00:36:53.199
you someplace good, you know,
if you listen, If you listen,

484
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:59.000
that's the very key point there.
Now you got a chance to to direct

485
00:36:59.079 --> 00:37:00.920
the film, your first film,
which is Catch and Release, which I

486
00:37:01.039 --> 00:37:07.000
loved, by the way I saw
that it's a fun, little wonderful little

487
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:12.480
wonderful little film. What was your
biggest lesson directing, because I know you

488
00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:15.400
directed a bit on television, but
it's a bit different. Yeah, it's

489
00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:17.960
a bit different. Well, really, it's my lesson from that film was

490
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:24.039
less about directing, although there are
a bunch of those, and more about

491
00:37:29.800 --> 00:37:32.039
being clear on the movie you're making. And Amy Pascal, that was a

492
00:37:32.199 --> 00:37:35.960
Sony movie, and she and I
have talked about it since then, But

493
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:40.079
that movie should have been a five
million dollars soun dance movie. But she

494
00:37:40.280 --> 00:37:45.000
gave me I think it was thirty
million dollars to make the movie, and

495
00:37:46.280 --> 00:37:50.280
and I kept thinking, I don't
feel like a thirty million dollars movie.

496
00:37:50.360 --> 00:37:55.280
But she's right in the check,
so I'm not going to argue. And

497
00:37:55.440 --> 00:38:00.679
then as we got close to shooting, it became clear, and I guess

498
00:38:00.760 --> 00:38:05.840
we just hadn't spoken to each other
clearly enough beforehand that she had expectations of

499
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:09.079
a kind of romantic comedy that I
didn't think we're inherent in the script,

500
00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:15.199
And so all during production we were
trying to sort of pull it into something

501
00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:20.599
that would hold on to what I
loved and deliver on what she felt she

502
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:24.599
had bought and like I said,
she and I have talked about it plenty

503
00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:28.480
since then, and it has a
lot of lovely little moments in it,

504
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:30.480
but I think we spent too much
money on it, you know, And

505
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:36.960
so it has an ending that is
sort of a classic romantic comedy ending,

506
00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:42.239
which wasn't where we started, just
trying to deliver on a sort of studio

507
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:49.519
product that it probably shouldn't have tried
to be. So that's that's the lesson

508
00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:52.360
there is, just be really clear
upfront with what movie you're making with the

509
00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:59.400
people who are giving you the money, because because eventually they're gonna want what

510
00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:06.199
they bought exactly. And mean you
driving to the set every day like rewriting

511
00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:13.079
the ending way too much. But
I had some great, great partners on

512
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:16.280
that I had. I was working
with the cinematographer named John Linley, whom

513
00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:22.519
I've worked with many times since then, and he made a bunch of movies

514
00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:28.360
and every now and then I would
just sidle over and say so and just

515
00:39:28.519 --> 00:39:31.039
ask him a question. He always
had a great answer. So when you're

516
00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:35.360
reading the script when you're shooting a
film, do you how can you tell

517
00:39:35.440 --> 00:39:37.760
which scenes are not going to make
it? In the final cut, and

518
00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:44.159
he said to me, well,
if it says flashback, And so since

519
00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:49.199
then I've thought I put a very
high bar on any flashback I used because

520
00:39:49.639 --> 00:39:52.400
somebody who had made twenty movies before
me, he said, he shot a

521
00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:54.599
bunch of flashbacks that didn't make it
in cuts. Why is that, you

522
00:39:54.719 --> 00:40:00.159
know, just a lot of wisdom
like that. We'll be right back after

523
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:10.599
a word from our sponsor. And
now back to the show. Night shoots,

524
00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:14.559
Yeah, night shoots, rainy night
shoots. Try to get those out

525
00:40:14.599 --> 00:40:19.079
of the script reproduction. Funny you
should say that I have pictures of us

526
00:40:19.159 --> 00:40:22.920
at night in just looking like drowned
rats because we were in Vancouver. We'res

527
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:29.639
a ring constantly. But I really
love all the performances in that. Oh.

528
00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:35.320
I don't think everyone does a beautiful
job. And I think I learned

529
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:38.760
also that I don't think um,
I don't think I had fun doing it

530
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:43.480
for about the first half of the
shoot. I think I was so intent

531
00:40:43.639 --> 00:40:51.239
on being ready and prepared and professional
and you know, successful at the job

532
00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:54.159
that I that I forgot to have
fun for a bit. And actually having

533
00:40:54.239 --> 00:41:00.599
fun for me is a really important
part of that job. It makes you

534
00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:05.400
relaxed. It makes other people relaxed. It is a fun job. It's

535
00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:13.079
an incredibly fun job, so it
should be fun um and and you know,

536
00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:16.360
relaxing. There's always a feeling I
have at the beginning of any scene

537
00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:22.599
of oh God, I hope it
works, you know, before your shoot

538
00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:29.719
the first yeah out of it,
and and the play when it doesn't quite

539
00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:35.199
and the play of finding finding that
again that unexpected thing within it, and

540
00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:40.760
it is really enjoyable, really enjoyable, really fun. So as directors,

541
00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:44.760
you know, there's always that one
day on set that you feel the entire

542
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:46.440
world's going to crash it down around
you. Now, that should be every

543
00:41:46.519 --> 00:41:50.760
day if you're doing your job right, but there's that one day that you

544
00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:52.719
just like, I don't know if
we're going to make it today. I

545
00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:53.679
don't know if I'm gonna make my
day. I don't know if I'm gonna

546
00:41:53.679 --> 00:41:57.440
get this shot. You know,
what was that day for you? And

547
00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:01.159
how did you overcome it? On
catching Lease? Yeah, you know.

548
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:07.800
I I'm going to preface this by
saying that one of my I've heard it's

549
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:10.480
very good in terms of longevity,
but one of my qualities is that I

550
00:42:10.639 --> 00:42:16.760
do not remember bad stuff that well, oh oh god, no, I

551
00:42:16.840 --> 00:42:22.239
can remember. There was this scene
we were shooting that was supposed to be

552
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:24.360
the last scene, and you know, like I said, I just kept

553
00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:30.679
trying to deliver an ending that would
fit with the movie, and and we

554
00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:36.000
ended up reshooting it because I knew
it wasn't that good, and the actors

555
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:38.880
knew it wasn't that good. It
wasn't what it should be, and none

556
00:42:38.920 --> 00:42:43.280
of us were saying it out loud. We were just trying to deliver on

557
00:42:43.400 --> 00:42:47.079
it and it was this like this
big it just it was. It was.

558
00:42:47.639 --> 00:42:52.920
It's that when you're the only thing
that's uncomfortable is when you're doing something

559
00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:55.880
you're trying to tell yourself it's working
and it doesn't. So I stopped stopped

560
00:42:55.920 --> 00:43:00.480
doing that. Then, yeah,
that was that was a bad day,

561
00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:05.440
did you But we got it?
So yeah, when you go through When

562
00:43:05.480 --> 00:43:07.480
you're going through that, though,
it does take a certain level of confidence

563
00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:12.519
within yourself in the skill set.
You have to either say stop, this

564
00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:15.239
is not working, we need to
just stop it from here. But this

565
00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:16.719
was your first big this is my
first thing. I didn't know to do

566
00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:22.599
that. I should I would do
that beat now, absolutely, absolutely like

567
00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:25.400
we're wasting film or wasting time.
Let's just stop and figure out if this

568
00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:30.280
is worth our while. Yeah,
and on the set with an amazing casset

569
00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:35.880
you have or where anytime you've directed, have you had to deal with opposing

570
00:43:37.239 --> 00:43:40.920
opinions of what the story should be
and having to fight, whether it be

571
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:45.920
crew members, whether it be studios, whether it be actors. How do

572
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:51.079
you overcome that as a director?
Sometimes you do and sometimes you don't.

573
00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:54.159
Right, you win, some of
you other something and you know, look,

574
00:43:54.239 --> 00:44:00.760
you have to accept that it's a
collaborative, artful right, and you're

575
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:06.159
hiring people not just for their face
and body, but for their inner life.

576
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:12.280
And and like I said with the
when I was those two films before,

577
00:44:12.920 --> 00:44:15.880
you never really know until you get
into the sandbox with someone, if

578
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:17.880
they if you have the same idea
of what you're building, you know,

579
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:24.119
um so, And sometimes it turns
into something else that is different than what

580
00:44:24.199 --> 00:44:29.840
you had in mind, but is
but is really remarkable too. You know,

581
00:44:29.920 --> 00:44:34.199
there was one performance and I won't
name it, but the first couple

582
00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:39.719
of days I was thinking, um, this is this feels really different than

583
00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:44.559
what I had in mind. But
she seems really committed to it. It

584
00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:49.159
ended up being a fantastic performance.
She won awards for it. It was

585
00:44:49.920 --> 00:44:53.440
it was so you know, you
have to leave yourself open to the idea

586
00:44:53.519 --> 00:44:58.079
that your partner has a great idea, and it might be it might challenge

587
00:44:58.119 --> 00:45:02.840
your idea and sometimes sometimes it makes
it better, and you just have to

588
00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:07.440
be alert to when it's not doing
that. You know. Yes, I

589
00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:12.480
think one of the themes of this
conversation is listen to yourself, Listen to

590
00:45:12.599 --> 00:45:15.800
the gut, Listen to you instincts
for both both those sides, whether it's

591
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:21.000
something like I think this is going
to go awry and crash into a wall,

592
00:45:21.519 --> 00:45:23.280
or I feel there's something here.
I don't know what it is.

593
00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:27.519
Let me just step back a little
bit and let's see what happens. Yeah,

594
00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:32.119
yeah, yeah, I mean it's
all you have, right, Everything

595
00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:40.679
came from your gut. It's just
and I I think that the conscious mind,

596
00:45:42.280 --> 00:45:46.480
when it comes to creativity, is
probably the least important element. You

597
00:45:46.599 --> 00:45:51.039
know, I try to write.
The reason I write when I write at

598
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:53.519
that hour is that I think I'm
still kind of asleep. You know,

599
00:45:53.679 --> 00:46:00.360
there's part of your sleeping brain that's
still engaged, and I get my coffee

600
00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:01.880
all set the night before, so
I don't have to do much. I

601
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:07.840
can go pretty quickly from sleep to
work because I think you're unconscious and you're

602
00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:13.320
subconscious, are more alive at that
time after before you've you know, made

603
00:46:13.400 --> 00:46:16.760
lists and phone calls and cooked eggs
and whatever else you're doing. This boring.

604
00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:21.239
That's a very interesting thing though,
because you're right, you're kind of

605
00:46:21.320 --> 00:46:25.400
like in that in between sleep and
awake stage. Your brain hasn't really turned

606
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:30.800
on yet, so it's not the
noise of the crap that we have to

607
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:32.880
deal with. The voices in our
head and all that stuff is a little

608
00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:37.400
bit quieter, so you can kind
of just tap into whatever that ether is

609
00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:42.039
to get the ideas in the in
the flow. Correct. Yeah, And

610
00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:45.440
you also can convince yourself at four
thirty in the morning that you're the only

611
00:46:45.559 --> 00:46:51.719
person awake on the planet. You
know, it feels like it's just you

612
00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:55.920
and the moon, and you know, great, fantastic now. You also

613
00:46:57.119 --> 00:47:00.280
you also you also worked on a
little film called Charlie Its Web, which

614
00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:04.280
is such a beautiful film. I
mean, it's such a beautiful story.

615
00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:14.039
How did you approach adapting literally one
of the biggest classic children's classic books.

616
00:47:14.199 --> 00:47:16.719
Ever, how do you approach that? Well, it's interesting because in the

617
00:47:16.920 --> 00:47:22.719
beginning I spent a lot of time
in Maine on the actual lake or eb

618
00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:30.880
White wrote, so I'm very reverential
of his work, and that work in

619
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:37.000
particular, and I thought, okay, straight up, faithful, loyal.

620
00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:39.880
And I got about halfway through the
script and I read it and it was

621
00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:45.519
just dead. It was just flat
and dead and lifeless. And I thought,

622
00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:53.800
Okay, that's not gonna work.
So I infused it with just with

623
00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:59.639
just more life, and I thought, the book will exist as long as

624
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:02.519
human exists. This book will never
go out to print. Everyone will read

625
00:48:02.559 --> 00:48:06.840
it, love it. This has
to different medium, it has to have

626
00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:14.519
different um dimension to it. So
I did that, and then I remember

627
00:48:14.639 --> 00:48:17.599
what happened. It could have been
that I went off to make catch and

628
00:48:17.719 --> 00:48:22.880
release. At some point I ended
up having to leave and carry. Kirkpatrick

629
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:29.800
came in, who's a wonderful writer
and a very funny writer, and he

630
00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:37.159
sort of, um, he brought
a whole other, you know, element

631
00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:40.760
to it as well. So um, so that's that's the thing. You

632
00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:49.679
just can't feel like you are just
typing the book I think it won't have

633
00:48:49.880 --> 00:48:52.239
the life it needs. It's the
same thing when you're writing a story about

634
00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:57.800
a real person, you know you
have to I the first time I did

635
00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:04.360
it was with Aaron Brockovich, and
I knew her and I really liked her

636
00:49:04.480 --> 00:49:07.679
and really admired her, and I
would start writing and I would think,

637
00:49:07.719 --> 00:49:09.880
well, I'm not I'm not sure
what she would do here. Maybe I

638
00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:13.280
should ask Aaron. I'm not sure
what she should do. And then I

639
00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:16.039
thought, God, I feel like
i'm writing with handcuffs on. So I

640
00:49:16.199 --> 00:49:22.320
decided in my head there are two
errands. There's the Aaron whom I really

641
00:49:22.840 --> 00:49:30.639
enjoy and admire, and then there's
the Aaron I'm writing, and they're totally

642
00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:35.159
different. And I'm just going to
trust that I know her well enough,

643
00:49:35.800 --> 00:49:42.760
and I am not. I'm interested
in just representing her truthfully. But that's

644
00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:46.079
but it's but this one's mine,
and I ended up with a much more

645
00:49:47.159 --> 00:49:52.280
faithful representation of her than I would
have had I not given myself that license.

646
00:49:54.280 --> 00:50:01.159
We'll be right back after a word
from our sponsor, and now back

647
00:50:01.199 --> 00:50:06.320
to the show. Yeah, and
that's that is a mistake. I think

648
00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:09.000
a lot of people who adapt do
is the whether the real life person or

649
00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:14.400
a real life story or a book, because I mean, I remember watching

650
00:50:14.440 --> 00:50:16.519
The Godfather. Behind the scenes,
I'm watching what Francis did with the book

651
00:50:17.159 --> 00:50:22.119
and he just I mean, what
he pulled out, what he wanted.

652
00:50:22.679 --> 00:50:25.920
Yeah, yeah, he was he
was constructing a blueprint and it was wonderful

653
00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:30.000
to see his process. It was
amazing. Yeah, but you really have

654
00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:32.039
to be master and commander when you're
writing something. You have to be it

655
00:50:32.199 --> 00:50:37.400
has to be your world. You're
in charge, nobody over you, it's

656
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:42.119
your And obviously then it goes into
production and then you're making a film and

657
00:50:42.199 --> 00:50:45.239
then other voices. But when you
are writing that script, you have to

658
00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:52.480
feel it's you're in charge and you're
the ultimate authority on it. Now,

659
00:50:52.599 --> 00:50:55.519
if you had a chance to go
back and talk to that young film student

660
00:50:57.079 --> 00:51:01.199
free pocahonas, what advice would you
give her? Well, none, because

661
00:51:01.239 --> 00:51:06.440
it worked out really well. So
obviously if I had known more than maybe

662
00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:08.800
I wouldn't have. Um, I
don't know, you know, I used

663
00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:14.159
to worry. I used to worry
a lot about I mean, I would

664
00:51:14.320 --> 00:51:17.519
you know, I would turn into
script on Friday and I would be apoplectic

665
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:24.960
until Monday, and so I think, Um, I don't. I don't

666
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:30.360
do that anymore. Obviously, I
want people to like my work always,

667
00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:36.400
but I don't turn myself into you
know, knots over it. Um And

668
00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:39.320
I may trying to tell myself he's
up a little, but I don't know.

669
00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:45.079
Maybe that level of anxiety is what
pushed me to make my work better

670
00:51:45.159 --> 00:51:50.719
than it would have been otherwise.
So I yeah, I wouldn't. I

671
00:51:50.800 --> 00:51:55.880
wouldn't say anything different. I mean, you can't. I have no quibble

672
00:51:55.960 --> 00:52:01.639
with how my life is going these
days. And if every miserable step along

673
00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:05.880
the way is what I needed to
get here, I've take them. All.

674
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:07.400
You know, is it isn't that
a great life lesson because a lot

675
00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:09.880
of people want to avoid all the
bad stuff. I'm but the bad stuff

676
00:52:09.920 --> 00:52:13.920
will makes you grow. If the
bad stuff is what makes you, gets

677
00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:15.599
you to that place and also gives
you character to be a better writer.

678
00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:21.519
Yeah, and then when that's what
you share, that's what people respond to.

679
00:52:21.880 --> 00:52:24.840
You know. The whole point of
these stories is for people to feel

680
00:52:24.920 --> 00:52:30.000
seen, you know, people,
for people just to make the world a

681
00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:34.320
little less lonely. You know,
people watch something and say, oh,

682
00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:37.760
yeah, I feel that too.
Maybe I'm not the only one who feels

683
00:52:37.800 --> 00:52:40.039
that. Maybe I'm not the only
one going to And you're not going to

684
00:52:40.280 --> 00:52:45.239
You're not going to do that without
living hard into the different difficulties of life,

685
00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:49.840
you know, m the whole question. I'm gonna ask you a few

686
00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:53.199
questions, ask all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker

687
00:52:53.320 --> 00:53:01.400
or screenwriter starting in the business today. I struggle with this one a bit

688
00:53:01.599 --> 00:53:06.880
because the on ramps are different now
than they were when I was starting.

689
00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:09.480
You can make your own films so
cheaply now, and so I would.

690
00:53:09.639 --> 00:53:15.719
I would tell people to do that
as much as possible, But the quality

691
00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:22.639
of your work remains the same.
Art on yourself. I don't mean punishing

692
00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:25.199
of yourself on a personal level,
but be demanding of your work. Set

693
00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:30.920
your bar high. I do this
thing at the end of every script,

694
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:34.679
when I think it's ready. I
read it as if I were an actor

695
00:53:35.480 --> 00:53:40.480
and I had a lot of options, and and I try to figure out,

696
00:53:42.199 --> 00:53:44.840
if I have a lot of options, am I going to do this

697
00:53:45.039 --> 00:53:50.599
one before all those other great options? And that is a That's a way

698
00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:58.159
I hold my work to what I
think is a higher standard. So I

699
00:53:58.239 --> 00:54:01.360
would find those ways you can,
and you can push yourself to make your

700
00:54:01.400 --> 00:54:05.800
work as good as it can be, because nothing's worse than putting work out

701
00:54:05.840 --> 00:54:08.239
there that isn't ready, that you
could have made better, and then you're

702
00:54:08.280 --> 00:54:13.119
just disappointed in yourself and you're not
getting yourself where you want to be.

703
00:54:14.239 --> 00:54:19.840
Do your best work. Do your
best work. I mean rough and very

704
00:54:19.920 --> 00:54:23.920
school marmie, But that's what my
advice is. Now, what is the

705
00:54:24.039 --> 00:54:28.079
lesson that took you the longest to
learn, whether in the film industry or

706
00:54:28.199 --> 00:54:32.719
in life. Oh golly, oh
golly, I wish I'd paid attention to

707
00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:39.880
these before we spoke. Um,
I'm gonna have to come back to that

708
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:43.280
one. Well, hold, we'll
hold it, We'll hold it, hold

709
00:54:43.320 --> 00:54:47.039
it all right? Um? What
is what did you learn from your biggest

710
00:54:47.079 --> 00:54:53.440
failure That I can survive failure.
That's a good lesson to learn. There

711
00:54:53.480 --> 00:54:59.239
are worse things than failure. Honestly, it can be rough if you are

712
00:54:59.559 --> 00:55:05.000
achieved and oriented and failure reverse.
It can be painful, but that failure

713
00:55:05.119 --> 00:55:07.760
is not death. Failure is often
something you can learn a lot from.

714
00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:12.239
It is the process is part of
the process. You have to film it,

715
00:55:12.440 --> 00:55:15.039
and if you win all the time, you learn nothing, and they're

716
00:55:15.199 --> 00:55:19.239
great, there are there is gold
in failure. It's painful, and it's

717
00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:22.280
the other thing is that our work
is public, so so failure is public,

718
00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:28.320
and so you feel embarrassed and you
know whatever, But there is real

719
00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:31.880
gold in failure looking at something and
say okay, well, then next time

720
00:55:32.679 --> 00:55:39.639
I won't do that. And what
are three screenplays that every screenwriter should read?

721
00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:46.280
Okay? Well, first of all, every screenwriting logistical problem is solved

722
00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:53.760
somewhere within the script of Tutsi.
So yes, it's just what learn Tutsi.

723
00:55:54.159 --> 00:55:57.519
When you hit a wall, think
what did they do in Tutsi?

724
00:55:57.880 --> 00:56:01.039
And you'll find some way that one
of those I think it was six writers

725
00:56:01.559 --> 00:56:07.960
figured out a logistical challenge. So
Tutsie is a good one witness because it's

726
00:56:07.960 --> 00:56:15.599
spectacular and it shows you how little
dialogue you actually need um to make a

727
00:56:15.679 --> 00:56:23.239
moment moment meaningful. Um gosh,
it's hard. It's hard not to say

728
00:56:23.320 --> 00:56:28.440
Godfather Part two? Right, got
one and two? You could put them

729
00:56:28.440 --> 00:56:32.199
put together? That's yes, and
put one and two are considered the same

730
00:56:32.280 --> 00:56:36.280
for me. Yeah, I mean
you can't wal, I mean that's I

731
00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:38.880
mean all, But then there are
there are ones that I just adore.

732
00:56:39.400 --> 00:56:44.719
You know, all the President's Men. Every scene forces you into the next

733
00:56:44.800 --> 00:56:49.039
scene. There's no point you can't
drop into All the President's Men and not

734
00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:52.559
stay till the end. It is
the most propulsive movie. And to look

735
00:56:52.599 --> 00:56:55.760
at that and think how did they
do that? Fantastic. And then there's

736
00:56:57.239 --> 00:57:00.760
I'm good, I'm giving you more
than three Please go for Running on Empty

737
00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:06.800
by Naomi Phoner. Yeah, just
the most beautiful movie. And it's a

738
00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:12.320
great opening. You meet River Phoenix
and he's playing little league baseball. And

739
00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:15.519
this is a guy who is not
attached to anything because his family for those

740
00:57:15.559 --> 00:57:22.239
people, his family is on the
run, and he can't really play baseball

741
00:57:22.280 --> 00:57:25.000
because he's never been part of it, but he's playing anyway. And someone

742
00:57:25.079 --> 00:57:29.800
says to him. I'm not going
to quote it accurately, but one of

743
00:57:29.840 --> 00:57:31.119
the first lines he says. Someone
says to him, why do you even

744
00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:37.159
play? And he says, baseball
is my life. And it's the most

745
00:57:37.320 --> 00:57:40.440
wonderful first line for a character because
in that moment with this guy who has

746
00:57:40.519 --> 00:57:46.400
not been allowed to put down roots
anywhere, in that moment, baseball is

747
00:57:46.519 --> 00:57:52.920
his life, and it's it's it's
shallow and he's It's such a great first

748
00:57:52.880 --> 00:57:57.400
character introduction. So that's another one
too. I could go on all day,

749
00:57:57.480 --> 00:58:00.440
but well I'm in Chinatown. Network
Shaw Shank, I mean, you

750
00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:04.079
can just keep going. Network is
the movie that got me into movies.

751
00:58:04.119 --> 00:58:07.960
I should have said that one?
Is that? How about Nashville Altman?

752
00:58:08.079 --> 00:58:10.519
I mean, I mean the play. I love the player. I just

753
00:58:10.840 --> 00:58:15.840
love watching the player. They don't
do those pitches. They don't, of

754
00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:19.239
course, they don't do those pitch
sessions anymore like they do than the player.

755
00:58:19.320 --> 00:58:22.639
Do they I think they do,
but they don't buy pitches as much

756
00:58:22.639 --> 00:58:25.039
as they used to. No,
they don't. They don't. Well,

757
00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:29.679
it depends on who you are.
I mean think they probably not like that

758
00:58:29.800 --> 00:58:32.519
anymore. Yeah, those those and
let me ask you the days of like

759
00:58:32.679 --> 00:58:37.159
the nineties of Shane Black days and
the Joe Esterhouse days where they were just

760
00:58:37.239 --> 00:58:40.000
dropping two mil, three mil,
four mil, five mil on on spec

761
00:58:40.119 --> 00:58:46.199
scripts, those days are pretty much
they are gone. I think spec script

762
00:58:46.239 --> 00:58:50.679
can still do really well still.
Yeah, there's still there's a million,

763
00:58:50.719 --> 00:58:53.559
two million, but they're rarer.
Before it was just like water. Yeah,

764
00:58:53.880 --> 00:59:00.960
I feel like I had this theory
in the first couple decades of doing

765
00:59:01.039 --> 00:59:07.159
this that there was it was what
I called the pile of stupid money,

766
00:59:07.800 --> 00:59:10.880
and it moved. And when I
first started, the pile of stupid money

767
00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:15.639
was all in specs, in film
specs, right, and it was just

768
00:59:15.880 --> 00:59:19.039
like I don't know where the money
was coming from, but it was massive

769
00:59:19.079 --> 00:59:23.119
amounts for And then the pile of
stupid money moved into TV overall deals and

770
00:59:23.199 --> 00:59:27.960
they was just the crazy overall I
mean, I'm sure that for a while

771
00:59:28.039 --> 00:59:31.840
there that it was some yeah,
actress had actors, actors, actors had

772
00:59:32.360 --> 00:59:36.760
network deals like overall looked deals.
I don't know. I think I think

773
00:59:36.800 --> 00:59:40.760
those piles of stupid money might be
disappearing in the corporate conglomeration of our business.

774
00:59:42.760 --> 00:59:47.199
I mean I looked a little harder
at their spreadsheets than I was when

775
00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:51.159
I had. I had somebody who
worked who was the president of Richard Donner's

776
00:59:51.199 --> 00:59:57.239
company back in the eighties. Can
you imagine we'll be right back after a

777
00:59:57.320 --> 01:00:05.480
word from our sponsor and now back
to the show, And he's like,

778
01:00:05.559 --> 01:00:07.400
I was there ten years, and
I go, what was it like working

779
01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:10.440
with Dick on some of these projects, and he's like, this is how

780
01:00:10.480 --> 01:00:15.039
it would go. He would read
the script he got Lethal Weapon, he

781
01:00:15.159 --> 01:00:19.519
read it, he said, I
want to make this movie. He'd call

782
01:00:19.639 --> 01:00:22.320
up the president of Warners. He
goes, I got a script, I

783
01:00:22.400 --> 01:00:27.480
want to make it, and the
president of Warners goes poll and no discussion

784
01:00:27.519 --> 01:00:30.679
of money. Whatever Dick wanted Dick
got. It's like and never like,

785
01:00:30.760 --> 01:00:34.920
oh, you only can make it
for thirty and but he was very responsible.

786
01:00:35.000 --> 01:00:37.599
He was a hit maker. Yea, and he and he had delivered

787
01:00:37.639 --> 01:00:42.400
consistently, right, and he's Richard
Donner for got six So that was and

788
01:00:42.480 --> 01:00:45.760
I'm like, legals, Yeah,
that's when filmmakers run ran the studios.

789
01:00:45.079 --> 01:00:49.639
Yeah, yeah, they don't mountain
as much. You read the Mike Nichols

790
01:00:50.800 --> 01:00:55.920
Oh My biography, and every time
they got to the discussion of the catering

791
01:00:57.000 --> 01:01:01.159
table. It's a very detailed and
beautiful biography. But I would think,

792
01:01:01.360 --> 01:01:06.760
man, you could not, like, I can't imagine getting that catering budgetness.

793
01:01:07.400 --> 01:01:13.880
Was it that extravagant? Oh?
He had the most spectacular catering really,

794
01:01:15.280 --> 01:01:22.320
lobster and sushi every day? Yeah, absolutely nothing but the best um

795
01:01:22.800 --> 01:01:27.679
and and last question three of your
favorite films. Oh well, I said

796
01:01:27.760 --> 01:01:32.119
them. Um uh, Rocky right
up there. I adore Rocky. And

797
01:01:32.159 --> 01:01:37.480
there's a bad scene in Rocky.
There isn't a bad scene in Ordinary People.

798
01:01:37.559 --> 01:01:43.840
That movie is just perfect and brilliant. Um, I'm going for I'm

799
01:01:43.840 --> 01:01:47.159
going for the unexpected ones like look, I love all that. I love

800
01:01:47.559 --> 01:01:53.719
all the movies everyone loves. Um, but but My Little Secret Treasures,

801
01:01:53.760 --> 01:01:58.400
I think, truly, madly,
deeply is an incredible I love that film

802
01:01:59.159 --> 01:02:01.639
of a film. Alan Rick,
Oh God, bless his heart. Yeah

803
01:02:02.079 --> 01:02:05.159
yeah he was, Yeah, he
was a l Yeah yeah he was in

804
01:02:05.239 --> 01:02:07.440
that movie, wasn't he. Yeah
yeah, of course, yeah, yeah,

805
01:02:07.480 --> 01:02:14.400
yeah, such a great film.
Um, you know I mentioned Running

806
01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:22.960
on Empty and Witness and um uh
the way we were is it's just so

807
01:02:23.119 --> 01:02:29.440
beautifully written. There's a screenplay.
There's an unconventional screenplay the first time.

808
01:02:29.559 --> 01:02:34.679
Yeah, I don't know how long
it is. Maybe it's the first twenty

809
01:02:34.719 --> 01:02:39.559
minutes or flashback incredible, great,
maybe it's more. I mean, if

810
01:02:39.599 --> 01:02:43.400
you want to talk about you know, and I'm gonna I'm gonna pat you

811
01:02:43.480 --> 01:02:46.400
in the back here for a second. I mean the introduction to Aaron and

812
01:02:46.519 --> 01:02:52.119
Aaron Brockovich it's it's I mean,
I've had people who are teachers of screenwriting

813
01:02:52.159 --> 01:03:00.840
who teach that scene as a beautiful, almost perfect in introduction to a character

814
01:03:00.880 --> 01:03:07.039
because you learn so much about her
in a short period of time. It

815
01:03:07.239 --> 01:03:12.159
is condensed, it is wonderful,
it is comedic, you feel for,

816
01:03:12.360 --> 01:03:17.360
you connect with because if that scene
doesn't work, get done. Yeah,

817
01:03:17.599 --> 01:03:23.760
yeah, Julian Robberts, guess what
that scenes? Well, there's the right

818
01:03:24.599 --> 01:03:32.079
exactly. But you know there's also
um I like when movies do are that's

819
01:03:34.519 --> 01:03:37.519
thank you for saying that, But
there's also In Silkwood, one of the

820
01:03:37.599 --> 01:03:40.440
first things, you know, one
of the hardest, one of the gnarly

821
01:03:40.599 --> 01:03:44.920
things to do, is name all
your characters, right, like everybody knows

822
01:03:44.960 --> 01:03:49.119
who everyone is, you know,
without saying hey Bill. And early on

823
01:03:49.239 --> 01:03:57.480
in Silkwood, they pull up to
the the um Kermagie entrance and they're all

824
01:03:57.599 --> 01:04:00.239
car pooling, and they lean out
the window and say their name so they

825
01:04:00.280 --> 01:04:05.840
can get into work. It's fantastic. It's just you set it up.

826
01:04:05.880 --> 01:04:13.400
It's done, it's perfect. Yes, yes, And then here's a really

827
01:04:13.480 --> 01:04:18.079
good one. Okay, Dog Day
Afternoon, Oh so good. Frank Pearson

828
01:04:18.199 --> 01:04:24.639
came to A five when I was
there and he showed that movie. He

829
01:04:24.719 --> 01:04:27.760
talked about it, and he talked
about the very beginning and you know,

830
01:04:27.840 --> 01:04:30.440
he comes in and he takes the
gun out of the flower box and it

831
01:04:30.519 --> 01:04:34.000
gets all messed up, and it's
very early on, and he was talking

832
01:04:34.039 --> 01:04:38.480
about that scene and he said,
the important thing to do was tell the

833
01:04:38.599 --> 01:04:42.000
audience you can laugh in this movie. And I had to tell them right

834
01:04:42.079 --> 01:04:45.199
up front. And it does that, it says because if you hadn't had

835
01:04:45.280 --> 01:04:50.280
that, if you got well into
what happens in that bank and then expected

836
01:04:50.360 --> 01:04:54.840
people to laugh, they wouldn't have
done it. So that's a good that's

837
01:04:54.840 --> 01:04:59.159
a good little lesson there too.
Yeah, because that's a slightly intense film.

838
01:04:59.639 --> 01:05:02.719
Yeah. Yeah, but you feel
free to laugh when you can because

839
01:05:02.760 --> 01:05:06.360
he said right up front, go
ahead. You know, Susanna, I

840
01:05:06.400 --> 01:05:10.039
can keep talking to me for hours. I appreciate you coming on the show

841
01:05:10.119 --> 01:05:12.360
so much. Thank you so much
for being on the show, for the

842
01:05:12.440 --> 01:05:15.360
amazing work you've done throughout your career
and continuing to be an inspiration to so

843
01:05:15.440 --> 01:05:17.360
many screenwriters out there. My dear, so thank you, thank you,

844
01:05:17.440 --> 01:05:20.400
Alex. It's very nice to talk
to you. You have a great day.

845
01:05:21.559 --> 01:05:26.239
I want to thank Susanna so much
for coming on the show and dropping

846
01:05:26.320 --> 01:05:28.960
her knowledge bombs on all of us. Thank you so much, Susanna.

847
01:05:29.199 --> 01:05:30.480
If you want to get links to
anything we spoke about in this episode,

848
01:05:30.519 --> 01:05:35.519
head over to the show notes at
Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv for its clash three

849
01:05:35.880 --> 01:05:41.440
hundred and I want to take a
small moment to thank everybody who's been listening

850
01:05:41.519 --> 01:05:46.599
for these last three hundred episodes.
It is a milestone and I really really

851
01:05:46.639 --> 01:05:51.840
appreciate all the support. We plan
to continue to bring you amazing conversations.

852
01:05:51.880 --> 01:05:56.360
We actually have a few in the
pipeline, so get ready for a few

853
01:05:56.440 --> 01:06:00.440
more really really awesome conversations coming up
soon. But I just want to say

854
01:06:01.039 --> 01:06:08.039
humbly and wholeheartedly thank you so much
for allowing me to continue to do this

855
01:06:08.239 --> 01:06:14.199
kind of work and bring these amazing
conversations to the screenwriting audience and filmmaking audience.

856
01:06:14.280 --> 01:06:16.960
Thank you again so much, guys, as always, keep on writing

857
01:06:17.239 --> 01:06:20.400
no matter what. I'll talk to
you soon. Thanks for listening to the

858
01:06:20.440 --> 01:06:25.800
Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot
tv.