The opinions expressed by Chayo Busquets are supported by his extensive experience as a family
therapist and in the previous analysis of the cases presented here welcome. This is
Chayo with you in Joya. We begin very good afternoon to everyone as I
am Chayo Busquetcha this Chayo with you and we are ready to start today'
s program. And well, it' s a day. What can I
tell you, it' s a day. We' ve been working on
it this week, but today' s the day. Today is the day
and, as I have been telling you from previous dates, on this day
we wanted to do a different program than we have been doing over time,
with the 8th of March International Women' s Day, a day that,
as I always remind you, is not a day to congratulate. It'
s not a day for the same women to get confused thinking it' s
chocolate flower day, because it doesn' t go around and not because it
' s got anything wrong. I insist on it all the time, but
why. And I use the continually comparative with this, Congratulating a woman on
March 8 is the equivalent of congratulating a student on October 2. And we
have to be very clear about the scheme of this day. And in this
day' s scheme. You know why I came to announce to you that
I have a guest who makes me enter into ambivalent feelings, because I am
very excited to have her on the show, because you know that we have
reviewed your book along with your co- writer. They' re not everyday
micromachisms. We check it many times here in the program we recommend it very
much and today it was made to me and I have it here at the
same time that it is a day that moves me to the insides, because
it is a day of much reflection and more with the days that we are
being like this, is that yes, I am in the midst of the
emotion and the commotion. I have to admit, because they' re going
to hear me all of a sudden excited and I want to clarify why,
because it' s the subject. Claudia, welcome. Thank you very much,
Chal It is the honor to be here and to be able to talk
with you, for I thank you infinitely. She is clearly here on behalf
of herself, Claudia de la Garza, but also of Ves' s tooth,
who is her writing companion, and today she came to me with a
news note. How good I tell you that I' m going to sound
excited despite the day it is but I' m going to present them to
you as God commands. Claudia de la Garza is an art historian, PhD
in social sciences, specializing in gender studies, teacher and researcher on issues of
fashion, contemporary art and feminism. He is fascinated by the many ways in
which we use clothing to create identities and transform our body into a place of
dissent. This word is going to be very important and today we will surely
talk about it. He writes essay and has found in curatorship and critical museography
a platform of enunciation through the development of numerous exhibitions at national and international level
with social themes in museums as memory and tolerance, Casa de la Memoria Indómita,
the MUCA, the Muca Campus, Shanghai Art Museum and well, come
other museums here that I will confess, Claudia that always and people who hear
me know it, I am nefarious pronouncing, but museums in Madrid, museums
in Tokyo, in Shanghai, among others. And she' s currently a
coordinator. Well, when you were writing, I wasn' t the coordinator
of the Unam Museum today, but today you' re there, it'
s all still coordinating. Yes, yes, it' s there in coins,
in the Historical Center of Mexico City. There it is. And he
likes disclosure, because it has to do with it and they have a second
book. These two women, these two great writing these subjects, body maps.
So we have to run for it and check it out. It'
s editorial lumen and well, what' s March 8th for someone who,
as you' ve written on these issues, on March 8th happens to me
a bit like you really gets excited, because it' s a day we
go out, get together, meet with other partners to point out all that
' s bothering us. We go out on the street, there' s
this whole festive part also at a point of being together and being there,
of taking these spaces. But at the same time, what we are also
pointing to is the missing ones. We are pointing out very strong things,
we are pointing out violence, we are pointing out inequality and I think that
is a long way to go and that is also a challenge for us,
no but it is also weighing us down, we do not miss and we
are very sore at the ones that are missing. So I think it'
s a day, no doubt, of many, of many emotions, because
one day that seems fundamental to me and what you explain at the beginning of
the program, it seems to me that it' s very important, that
we understand it, it' s not also, uh, to put ourselves
on the wrong track. But this day is to think about our rights,
it is to think about a world of equality, and not just women.
We have to think about this, it' s up to us as a
society. We have to think about what is missing for us to live in
a world where we can be more free, where we are more equal,
where we have equal opportunities. And I think that' s what it'
s about, not no, not to be told congratulations, ladies, but
to think that we all do in our lives for what, so that those
around us, of us are better off being all us. I mean,
that' s it, that' s it, without a doubt, without
a doubt, Claudia, and that' s what the show is going to
be about. About that. But of that that although you have not been
violent, that although you have not been beaten, that although you have not
had to beg for help in those terrifying moments that have lived so many women
today, in everyday life, what is happening to us unnoticed and of what,
even we, who today go out to take the streets, we are
also being part of that we are also going to talk today with Claudia,
because we are back here in Chayo with you on this 8th of March,
talking with Claudia de la garza authorco along with identity of setback of they are
not daily micro machismos. How this came about, because, on the one
hand, you hear the micro not and then it seems that it doesn'
t matter. But at first there is denial. They' re not everyday
micro- machisms. Exactly notice that this book arose because there was an interest
in this and the publisher looked for Irendira, who in turn invited me at
that time took we shared a space of classes. They were just giving classes
in genre studies in art and they were looking at my student and invited me
to a thing that excites me less pride and I feel so honored of such
a bright moon. He invited me to do a project like this at one
time and they told us we created a book of machis, micromachismos and we
investigated, we went to Luis Bonino, who coined this term. We were
going to but the term micromachisms, which has been used so much and which
is useful to make these things visible, useful, these experiences of violence that
suddenly seem to pass there unnoticed. But we made a lot of noise just
this microno e particle. We always think they' re little girls, they
' re those little machismos and then they' re smaller. But I was
arguing like we didn' t. We think we can talk about little machismos.
We can talk about machismos that occur every day of everyday machismos, of
machismos that, as we live constantly we do not see, become invisible,
but not small. Why, because even if they are so everyday, we
have them so normalized, it has an impressive impact, they have a great
macro impact on our lives and what they have to do with decisions that are
made, with lives that can, that is, they can be a matter
of life or death. Not thinking that a person feels that women should dress
in a way or they should go out in a way or they should uh
and drive in a way or speak in a certain vocabulary and reach a woman
who doesn' t. If I' m a decision maker, don'
t I tell you I' m a woman, men, that' s
a decision maker and I think women are going to act in a certain way?
I can say no she was to blame. Not her, I mean,
my influence. You can say no. I don' t accept it
in this workplace. I do not accept it in this academic space. Because
she talks like that, because women should dress in this other way, because
of issues she might not even be realizing that she has, but that she
has them there so deeply rooted, that she is being biased, that she
is leaving people out and that it has a tremendous impact. Not these economic
decisions. We suddenly see every product that comes out. Let' s say
thinking that women should use this or that or consume quis products. Not then,
we can' t in any way talk about micro talk, but we
do talk about what happens all the time and that we have them as you
mentioned at the beginning. Even when we leave, we are very clear that
women must have the same rights, that we must have certain freedoms, that
we must. Sometimes we don' t fuck about saying things, scorning someone
because they did so, questioning someone why, why they got to that post,
not or why they dress like that, why they came out so late,
not this kind of thing alone. They eat this book a lot with
a lot of people and many times they tell me, well, yes,
I understand that women should be free, but sometimes, when they leave so
late I think good, but they know that they are, that it is
dangerous. Then we' re putting those filters on, ourselves, us all
as a society. Why, because we grew up in this macho society is
a structure that surpasses us as individuals. It' s not a thing that
crosses us. And we have that education both at home and at school and
in the media, as I mean, we' re bombarded by this.
Not then am I liberated and I remove all these contents that I have received
throughout my life. It' s hard. You have to be thinking about
this all the time and sometimes we leave. But if we have this one,
if we start to ask and reflect, I think we start to be
able to make a change. Without a doubt, how harmful or how it
impacts not to pay attention to these micro machismos that not by small ones,
but by hard to notice by how they are. Colabro, I love it.
I loved your metaphor for microbes, because yes, no doubt, this
part of their invisibility. It makes them grow, makes them reproduce constantly.
We don' t think so, but yes, I' m not a
sexist, but at home you don' t give your daughter the same treatment
as your son. She can' t go out, she has to help
herself in the house he can' t, he can be quiet, but
he' ll be asked to work and to contribute financially first. In short,
each person should not cry, be strong, endure, not express his
emotions and what happens if he expresses anger and violence. That' s a
good thing because he' s a man and they' re not, because
then it wouldn' t be the feminine woman anymore. This is this floor
where we' re growing up until we think of some possible things for some
and other impossible things that we' re having in our mind and how,
how, but why they became female wrestlers, what happens to them. No,
the beatings are not of women, and that if a man exerts physical
violence on another man or on a woman, say that if they are angry
they are, that is to say, that we understand that it seems understandable
to us, then, because they tell you it is not that there can
also be women that violent, for there can be anyone who rapes. It
' s a human question, but to whom we do accept that and to
whom we don' t. So, those conditions of inequality that we have
in our daily lives, with which we res, that we relate, with
our family, with our friends, from the most intimate places reproduce in everything,
in all our areas. And then we think it' s very normal
for men to hit each other in a bar or, they do, they
' re violent and we think it' s a very unpleasant thing and it
' s out of place for some women to do. Yeah, so that
kind of thing is putting us in there with questions as far as possible and
on that floor, it' s possible, yeah, it' s possible
that women will be raped. Yes, we understand if we think it'
s normal for a man to violence a woman and get to the last violence.
And although it is not acceptable to us, we are setting standards,
we are still seeing something happening, something in which it is possible becomes so
common that it convinces us exactly. And then this, this, this removes
and let' s say it puts here the offense the Flaghad Network. Not
that alert alert, because the moment you' re treating each other differently,
you' re giving them the chance to be, to be violent, to
have more things happen about one you' re thinking a person is weak and
things might happen to him then better be taken care of, because if it
' s not his responsibility. No. Besides, this part of the guilt
is very interesting. Now I say there are many materials. You were just
talking about how it could grow. Let' s say this violence as it
pleases and that it' s a violence that starts that will surely be reviewed
in a way or have already been reviewed in your program in a more profound
way, from the psychological, from the neurological, from other possibilities, from
other disciplines, say, but they thought about things, very simple tools,
like the violence meter. Not that I' m now in one and working
for an exhibition on violence against women that we' re going to have at
the Museum of Memory and Tolerance. What a father this semester. Not all
dates yet. But, well, there' s more to it than there
is, probably because it' s going to be very interesting and we thought
precisely how. We were wondering, how to show that violent meter so they
weren' t just. I mean, it' s very graphic. They
' re not little colors, they' re little colors, and how those
behaviors start. But sometimes we read them and even if we are immersed in
those situations, we do not identify ourselves because we continue as in denial.
So we figured out how to make it more and more graphic, how to
really put an example of situations where you can make an echo where you look
reflected by saying I' m trying to give you everything and you violently violence
me. And I more want to give you everything, because I feel that
it is my fault, that I have to give more for you to treat
me better, when in reality, the tendency is the opposite. It'
s a bit. What we' re trying to do with the book is
actually to give examples, to make those resonances. Why. Because, as
you said, there are violences that can be more evident. There is no
thing that this children' s do not cry seems to us already as very
obvious and as overcome, although it is not overcome in any way. No,
but sometimes it seems like something seems obvious to us. That' s
right, ay Claudia to see in the experience. I see this one like
I told you. We commented on this book many times in the bloated program
with you and I looked at the index and said wow. This one,
this one, yeah? This one is? This one? Yeah? I
was clear about them. But all of this I hadn' t even noticed.
And I use them myself, I fall into those approaches myself. You
don' t know what the book was for me, how it went for
you and some examples, because I' m sure many, many, many
of those who are hearing us, will be surprised. Yes, I also
think that the same thing happened to us in terms of the fact that even
though we were studying these subjects, it' s not the same thing.
When you suddenly open the radar and it was from the conversations that we heard
on public transport, at school, where we could be seeing what the people
in the back were saying in the cafe and what comments they were making and
he taking ideas and ideas was kind of exhausting. But notice that in particular
to me the ones that could me many are those of the body, they
were the ones that crossed me the most, because besides, also not only
do we apply them, not all this form of how the body of women
should be and how it should be the body of men and s and how
in women we not only have to always be this aesthetic part, not that
ornament beautiful women and how beauty is this part, like that imposes us on
the image, always the image. So how we apply it to ourselves and
we' re super tough on our bodies, so we don' t get
along. It' s always like the slice. I got this, I
got the other one, that if I eyebrow it, that if everyone in
their fashion, I don' t. But besides, it' s also
very interesting how that body that at one point is this place, that it
has to be very beautiful and that intimidates us, because it' s despite
us say the young girls, all the time harassed in how suddenly it disappears
also with a certain age and that body, then no longer, is no
longer seen and you have to strive for always being young so that it remains
there having that transcendence, not so that it continues to have an impact.
So it is very interesting just that, that seems to me a very strong
machismo, like this part of the personal arrangement and of always being young and
of him it is always having to have this presence as beautiful. No.
And there are examples that were like terrifying, because we looked even like this
in presentation, in labor requests. No, and how they asked you to
be this beautiful bead. I don' t know what and already the experience
of Finding out was all the same. You' ll learn it, you
' ll learn it, although, of course, for men it was never
a subject, not the aesthetic part. To me the body left me as
so marked that we just look for that when they tell us they are not
going to be another book of they are not micro because to list machismos and
it is already clear the idea, not like that the idea was that you
can add them that you live. But there' s just this trend.
Not then do we decide to look at the body as focus and think about
how it has been seen from the nose, for example, not that it
is a part of the body that is very important for our own safety.
Not always when you meet someone who likes his nose, because he' s
totally sure of himself, not so much for men as for women. It
' s one thing, but it' s so cross- class because apart,
there' s already a whole form of operation, or the mestizo nose
that was acquired this eliminate in the sixties, not that it' s going
to start getting fashionable operations so that you have some more features like this west,
these little noses and then it has a part of racism also very strong,
no, and how we all have to get into that. So I
think that book Right goes from head, skin hair, to very important concepts
as to how we understand our sexuality, to how we understand our health,
our disease, our skin color, our weight. Not that it' s
a total issue now, too. It is called body maps and of course
it speaks of gender, no, and it speaks of machismo, but it
also speaks of ways in which that machismo takes different forms, in different cultures,
in different epochs and in different contexts. And how we suddenly carry something
that no longer has anything to do with ocimente and how we appropriate something that
hurts us we do it our own and we start self- harming ourselves instead
of putting a stop to criticism that comes from outside to pointing, that comes
from outside not the other way around. We took it and got out now,
we did date the enemy ex It' s not very complicated. You
were telling me everything that had to do with the body. It was one
of the things that hit you the most when you were with this not micromachism,
even if they were wearing the micro. It' s not because of
that, but because of how hard it is to see what others touched you,
what others jumped you. Notice that at that time both I and I
were having very difficult experiences in the work that had much to do with this
infantilization of women, this condescension, not with bosses who were not very aware
of their machismo. On the contrary, they thought that they were still,
that they were very open and progressive, but that they constantly put us,
they did not interrupt, they appropriated our ideas. The typical Oian. Why
don' t we do, no, no, don' t wait,
why don' t we do this, what exactly you just said. No.
And then it was the idea of that kind of thing constantly and this
infantilization of girls. I remember the girls telling us. The girls and girls
are here, because I was thirty- nine years old and nothing or my
partner had a baby. Here are stitches, I mean, the girls were
going. No. Anyway, that kind of thing that all the time and
he' s condescending don' t worry. No, since it was very
complicated to really put forward ideas or to change spaces and these machismos that can
happen seem, because something simple. Not as good as it is, it
' s not that bad. No, they' re not raping you,
they' re not stalking you, but they won' t let you up.
But they don' t allow you to access a more responsible position.
But it doesn' t allow you because it was the girl, because you
can' t make decisions, because you can' t then there are these
barriers. Not where the wage barriers are. Today is a big problem.
I feel, it' s still a big problem and in many areas it
' s not then sometimes we think. In the academic arena there are many
also very strong revelations in that we, who would say well, people are
more sensitized. It' s not true. Spaces and jobs are always very
masculine and, although they are being transformed, there are still deep inequalities,
not especially in terms of care, in terms of who has spaces to care
for who doesn' t. In the case of women, they must always
have access to or go to care. There' s not one of the
examples we gave was also the super woman. Not this woman you have to
be. In addition to her, we said that beautiful and beautiful and put
in body, but also has to be smart nice, Linda never gets angry.
This one also has to have eh and take care of the children,
attend to everyone. What about that, that is, what viability exists in
that and in this model that has actually become, a model in which we
all feel guilty. If we don' t do it this way, that
' s where it is, where reality is. It' s just that
right now you' re making me remember moments where suddenly, at work,
you have to tell the boss or the partner doesn' t even have to
have different hierarchy something that you didn' t like or something that didn'
t seem to you, something that bothered you, that bothered you. How
conflicting are women, yes, they can' t stand anything at all.
There is no disqualification that comes from how conflicting they are and then there is
no complaint that is evaluated for itself to see if the complaint has exact validity.
You don' t listen, but you stigmatize the person who is saying
it from the moment, and that tone control. We also talked about it,
not like the moment you say no. But it just makes me uncomfortable
that it can be a joke or it can be a much stronger attitude in
terms of the professional and you say in here is that women are complaining about
everything. No matter what you said or with valid arguments, not even in
the good sense, ever talking to a friend that we were just dealing with
this one and suddenly I made comments on a topic that was considered very masculine
and told me you' re going to become my best friend and I said
no your best friend, as it' s not that you' re like
you' re my friend or it' s with you, you can talk
about this good is that where the difference is, not in automatic. I
had to go into the cat in the friend catalog, because you' re
not interested in subjects that are a hundred less important insults than the female ones.
If it' s something that does interest you, then next, it
' s like a man, it' s like another partner, and one
of when they were little in high school said yes, I took more with
the boys and she was kind of cute to you, because you said,
don' t box me in that place of the delicate. And no doubt,
but then you think that if you realize that you' re actually there,
uh, uh, also perpetuating that machismo, because actually women can talk
about what we all want. So much there is so strong any subject.
Yeah, no women' s issues. No doubt, Claudia, how they
get in touch with you. Oh, well, they can search me on
Facebook or Instagram. I am Claudia de la Garza or Clouch Vela, and
there we can eat, Sara, there you can look for me and we
can follow the conversation, because that' s what this book is about,
this is about dialogue, thinking together and talking about. That' s right,
how do we give him, how do we give him, because I
want to say pause to this conversation. Don' t close, because it
works for a lot, but where, where and with what ideas you stayed
and who was Claudia that turned out after finishing the book, because I think
the book changed me a lot. Actually, you' re absolutely right.
It is a nice question, because why this is to immerse ourselves and reflect
around our daily life. To me, something that interested me a lot from
the beginning is just to see how these violences exercise us only one sense,
they are exercised from all senses and we ourselves exercise them as well. There
are, that, we have to see each other, we have to look
at each other, we have to see that we are teaching and how we
can transform those teachings so that we are looking for that world of greater equality.
No, and one thing that also strikes me a lot is to listen,
listen, because thanks to this book it was to put examples here,
but it has been to listen to many people who have talked to us tremendous
machismos and situations of terrible violence in institutional, of violence, that is,
not only of violence in family settings and but of violence at other levels and
to me, that is why it seems more and more important to go out
this 8th of March to put our voices there because, because the institutions suddenly
there are some that you see begin to seek to integrate and to listen a
little that is not left of others and there are and there are others that
not that, on the contrary, turn. They also close, close and
these radical reactions and seem very serious to me. Someone was telling me that
I don' t like the radicals of the marches and the women who suddenly
violate. And but what I' m really worried about is radicality isn'
t a bunch of girls scratching a monument for nothing. It seems to me
that the radicality with which the institutions are closing down, that does scare me,
because they have the decisions. If they allow violence to continue like that
then I think that that is something that I think very important to say,
that it is very important that we are talking about these issues, that these
situations of discomfort as you said where they discard us, because also that to
say good, uh, I can change things and not and it is not
a lot of times you don' t do it that you are intentionally,
then being able to listen to those who tell us. Hey, you keep
telling me this. No. No, no, no. I like to
be uncomfortable with what criticism my body is, what criticism my way of speaking
is, or what in the end of arrangement. And don' t you
hear, let me finish the idea. No, or you interrupting me not
to listen to me. I think it' s fundamental, that is,
it' s what happens every day and if we transformed them, we'
d change our environment. No doubt note that I am staying a little while
confirming something that I have said in what it applies here and that I have
said here in the program many times for many concepts and it is always I
have spoken here in the program and I share it with you, that indiscipline
if not we manage to stop it on time and that it is going up.
So many years ago there was in the newspaper stalls a propaganda that I
would have left forever there, because it said in the newspaper stalls the top
said the things of magazines and others said the crimes. They began with a
minor indiscipline. No and this is why I always found this book so valuable
that they wrote, because this micromachism ignored by the difficulty it has to be
seen, because it has permeated society is the one that is growing little by
little, little by little, and then we have the beaten person or the
dead person, the dead woman. Not then something. We cannot fail to
see that which is in the day to day, because if we stopped it
from there we would not get to bigger words, we would get to those
violences. So if we thought of each person for their worth. And both
men and women were worth the same thing in this partnership and not just say
men and women, but indigenous men and women, and, that is,
it doesn' t matter their social status, that is, if we really
are worth the same thing. So come in terms of how we look at
each other would change completely. And that' s what we have to start
with, that is, we have to look at ourselves at the center of
our reflection. That' s right, Claudia, because I' m infinitely
grateful that you came on this day, that you dedicated us to this space.
I already made the commitment to her. He' s going to come
back, because we have to talk about his other book, some problem and,
well, about this topic that he gives for a lot, not just
on March 8 every day, but today is the day that we all gather
together on what we' re going to do the rest of the year.
That' s why this space and this function are given so much to the
8th of March. Claudia, a thousand thanks, a thousand thanks, a
thousand thanks to YOU to those who really listened to us. Thank you very
much and well, I' m chayo busetch until then. Audio Centre