What is up, fellow thermonuclear af ers. I am Dan Pavalley coming at you with another NBA team. Look ahead, We're onto the Indiana Pacers, and you know what that means. Kaitlyn Cooper from Indie corn Rows is back. One of my favorite people in the world to talk to about basketball, popsicles and other things. Follow her on Twitter if you are not already at C two Underscore Cooper. I cannot overstate how good her work is for Indie corn Rows podcasting. The writing is spectacular. You're not going to find someone who is better at blending x's and os, granular analysis, unique points of view with just pros and just a great writer, great writing overall, not browing smoke. I've said this every time she comes the podcast. Like I said, one of my favorite people to talk to and the single most important question I will ask during this episode, Caitlin, how the heck are you? I'm doing well, and it just so turns out that this is also one of my favorite podcasts to come back and be a guest on. And that's not me blowing smoke either. Anytime you come back and give me an invitation, that tells me that I wasn't horrible the prior time when I was on, and I just always really enjoyed talking to you, So thank you again for asking me to come back. One. I've told you this in the DMS. Whenever you say my questions are thorough or the podcast doesn't socc or whatever, I'm melt inside a little bit. So thank you. But two, you and Tara bone Biggs. We've had comments on our reviews on Apple podcast saying more Caitlyn Cooper and Tara bone Biggs. So the people want more Caitlyn Cooper, So the people are getting more Caitlyn Cooper. And who else am I supposed to talk to about the Pacers at this point? Who are? I remain fascinated with every team at this point, but They're They're fascinating because they're kind of like starting over, which is something no one thought that they would do, and so I will begin there. Do you have any general thoughts about their off season, what happened over the offseason that are that are sticking with you as we enter the regular season. Well, I loathe myself for what I'm about ready to say, I already do, but I think what you said is pretty key. I think that my overarching cake from this particular summer when I look back on it, is going to have a lot to do with Herb Simon because things that we've heard in the past that you know, the owner of the Pacers or the governor or the Pacers is never going to do like, oh, they're never going to go into rebuild mode. Well, it kind of looks like they are that, you know, they weren't. It was it wasn't really a tank job at the end of the year because they were still playing Tyree's They're still playing Buddy Healed, but they did lose the last ten games of the year straight. We heard that, oh, well, Herb Simon's never gonna let Kevin Pritchard trade a player for picks. They're going to have to bring, you know, young talent back. And you know, they did trade carros LeVert to the Cleveland Cavaliers in exchange for Ricky Rubio's expiring contract and picks. Then it was, oh, you know, Herb Simon's never going to play and restricted free agency. They're never going to do that. And they could have been pricklier with what they did, but they did give the Andrea and a Max offer sheet and you know, now we're headed into this season and it sounds like they were even considering, you know, trading for Russell Westbrook and potentially buying them out, which is another thing that was said that Herb Simon would never do. Oh, they're never gonna pay a guy not not to work. So that's that feels like the seismic shift to me, Like it wasn't It was kind of an eventfully uneventful summer given the eight and still plays for the Phoenix Suns, and it was mostly for the Pacers just about the draft and bringing back Jalen Smith. But in terms of Herb Simon changing his mentality on how the team's going to be able to be run, that feels pretty big. Did did DeAndre Eton pursued? Like was that counterintuitive at all relative to what they said during media day, which was we're not going to measure this team and basically how good it is or in wins specifically. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that when they packaged it, if the Suns hadn't matched and they had signed eight in that they would have been, you know, hope springing eternal a little bit more. And not to say that they aren't excited about what the direction of the team is. But I mean, I felt for me personally if they had brought an A, and I very much believed in that pairing between he and Tyrese. I think that they really would have meshed well together. But I do think that him coming to a team where he's no longer on a contender would have given them an opportunity to really test out, you know what else maybe he can do in a self creation spot. And I don't think that progress would have been completely linear. I think that there would have been hiccups along the way. So I don't know that I necessarily would have been penciling them into, you know, a much higher position than what they're going to be without him. And that doesn't mean that you don't do it. It just means that, you know, I think there would have been some hiccups, and I don't think just adding him would have completely fixed their defensive issues, which I'm sure we'll get into later as well. Yeah, that's a good point. I think just what confused me most is that if you wanted him that bad, why was the offer not you know, you called it more prickly, like, why wasn't it more aggressive. Why was it just built for Phoenix to match in ten seconds. That's just the thing I had trouble understanding unless they were doing a solid for Adan's agent at that point. I mean, that would be pretty disappointing if that, if that was any of the motivation for Yeah, I think it just more goes back to herbs, like when you look at what they did with Malcolm Brogden, like they gave I mean, it wasn't signing Malcolm Brogden in restrictive free agency. It was a sign and trade and he just doesn't like hurting, you know, his partners. And maybe maybe there's a long term upside to that where maybe a team later on remembers that you dealt with them nicely and they're more willing to come to the table with you in trade negotiations down the road. But that's not the way I would be operating if I were them, I would have if I really wanted DeAndre and I would have made it as hard as possible for the Sons to retain him. So but it wasn't step forward and the fact that they did it right certainly I would not have been looking out for a Robert Sarver owned at that point. Your favorite thing to talk about Miles Turner trade discussions. I think you sent a tweet the other day that said, you're kind of exhausted about this being among the storylines entering training camp, and as someone who is probably enjoys the transaction part of the process more than you, I'm with you on this one. It's like Miles Turner has been in the league eight nine years, but he somehow been in trade rumors for like twelve years. Are you surprised that he's still on this team? Where do you see this sort of headed? And I think the bigger question is there's the debate of should the Lakers give up the two first round picks and that Russ deal that you sort of alluded to before. If you were the Pacers, would you do it one for the two first round picks? But would you do it for less, like if it was a pick and a swap? Yeah, in Miles this case, like when I was when I tweeted that, I was more coming from the perspective of and the supplies here that the last three Pacer seasons have all felt very segmented that you know, they come out of the bubble season pretty much everybody knows that Victor Oladipot isn't going to be on that roster at the end of the year. He doesn't sign an extension. It's basically he's just here to Both sides are just there to help each other until they can find a trade partner. And then last year, you know, very early on to the season, the season's not going the way they wanted to. There's no TJ. Warren, there's no carouselver early and it becomes very clear again that you know, some of these players probably aren't going to be here at the trade deadline, and that's going to dominate the conversation. And now it seems pretty likely to me. You know, I don't want to speak for Miles Turner, but I think the better question to me is is he going to be on the roster opening night? Is is he going to be on the roster after the trade deadline? So, yeah, when you come to it from the angle with the Lakers thing, if you look at what I believe it was, Michael Scotto at Hoops Hype said that the Pacers had asked for both first so it effectively would have been one first for Miles, a first to take on Russ's contract and then wanted THHT and the Lakers to take on Tyson's contract and exchange for Buddy. Like, I think that that's the way it would break down. So I'm from the Pacers perspective, like, if you're not sending Buddy and it's you know, you're probably willing to take just the first. But I still think that that's not really fair compensation when you're having to take on Russ's contract as well. Like, I think that there should be a pick for absorbing Russ's deal and a pick four miles. I don't think that I was surprised that Myles was still on the roster. I thought, you know, this front office has kind of been known to take measured approaches. They could have traded Victor Oladipo after that bubble season. I think that, you know, their only risk was, like that had to have been the lowest value possible, So you bring him back. Maybe it's a little bit prickly for a while, and you know he's in a contract year, he's gonna play hard regardless, and you hope that he gets some value back. They ended up getting caressed. It's pretty much the same situation here. Because tellingly, at media Day and whenever Kevin Pritchard was an availability, Kevin Pritchard was directly asked about the extension, he declined to answer that question. Myles Turner was directly asked about extension and whether he'd want to stand Indiana long term, and he also declined to answer that question. Which you're not going to give specifics on contract details. I think everybody knows that. But like Kevin Pritchard could have said, like, you know, we really value Miles and we want to keep him there a long term. We're going to talk with him and his agent, but that's what we want. And Miles could have said, you know, if the dollars and cents work out, you know, I want to be in Indiana, But like they didn't take that tact, Like neither side commented on it. So that just leads me to believe like until there's an extension, the situation doesn't change. Like he's still going to be somewhat trade bait. That's just what the reality is. Whether fans really want to accept that or not, I personally would be surprised if he's on the team pass the trade deadline. Think they're very supposed I do think you hit on a really important point that's become divisive is you do need a pick to take on Russ's contract itself. It is not a normal expiring contract. It is closer to fifty million dollars than forty million dollars. And it's not something it's not a contract, it's not a player. Excuse me that you're going to reroute you're paying him to leave at that point. And so it's different from yeah, maybe they only get one first round pick in a Miles Turner trade, but they're probably not having to take back such an albatross salary, or maybe they're getting an actual player that they can use and evaluate not just for the rest of this season, but beyond that season. I do think that's what some people have missed, where it's, well, buddy, Heel's not on a great contract, so why wouldn't they just accept one pick? And the other thing is just like I don't want to say things tend to just work out for the Lakers, because we both know the way that you get players now has changed, Like free agency isn't what it is. Players are movi via trade or you draft them and developed them. But like things have worked out for the Lakers, like they stumbled into Lebron James Anthony Davis demanded his way there. So I don't think you can necessarily bank on those distant first rounders being as valuable as I think some Lakers fans and just the general NBA intelligenza thinks that they are right now. So I understand why Indy wouldn't do the la deal without the two first and why they might in essence end up accepting perhaps less at the trade deadline from a different team when it doesn't involve Russell Westbrook. Yeah, and I think that's all fair because I mean you also have to take into account that like Russell Westbrook was basically actively harmful to the Lakers, Like you're definitely doing them a favor by taking on that contract and doing what they're doing. So I think all of that's very valid. I mean, a year ago, when Miles was on the trade block before the foot injury, like everybody kept asking me, what do you think is fair value for him? And I was kind of using the Aaron Gordon package that the Magic Guy is like my baseline in terms of them getting you know, Gary Harris and RJ. Hampton in the first that felt you know, realistic in terms of, you know, I think another opposing team would be looking at them on a similar level as Miles maybe being you know, a final piece to you know, round out their defense for you know, a playoff run or something along that line, similar to how Enver viewed Aaron Gordon not necessarily coming in there to be doing a bunch of you know, the offensive stuff. But I think that calculus obviously changed once the stress reaction in his foot occurred. Yeah, and I'm probably this is why I should never have been an nbafron office. I would have probably given up more than some of the rumors for Miles Turner unless his medicals are just a disaster, because I think Miles Turner's just so easy to fit in on offense, even if he's not happy with that role, and he's fantastic defensively, which leads me to actual basketball questions. We have exited the trade portion of the Pacers look at how like, how do you few Miles Turner's fit with the actual personnel that's here versus how they're going to use him because we know he's been like are they going to test out more than what he's done on offense for them in the past, now that he's sort of the soul big And I don't mean to throw another question at you, but when you were writing about eight and fit in Indiana and then you had mentioned this, I think on your most recent Indie Cornrows podcast, and it was something I thought about a little bit when they guaranteed jail and Smith the starting position, if you're gonna keep Myles Turner there, like you don't really have like this high end rim diver to play alongside your guards now, and so is that going to be an issue that they sort of have to grapple with it all? Yeah, I think all that's really good questions to ask. I mean, I think that Jalen and part in being named the starter, probably had to do, like in order to keep him in Indiana if you believe in him and what else he might be able to do. My guess is they probably needed to promise him a starting role. And then if you also look at it from Miles's perspective, like if part of the goal and I don't know this, but if part of the goal and the start of the season is to boost Miles his trade value, he needs to be defended by fives. So right now at practices, in the starting lineup, they've been having Jalen and Miles together, and off the bench, they've been having Isaiah Jackson and Terry Taylor at the four and the five. So if like if they had chosen Isaiah Jackson is the starter with Miles, Miles probably isn't getting defended by the five. If Terry Taylor's out there, you know, maybe, but I mean, Terry's probably more likely going to be the roller than what Miles is going to be. If those are your two big combination, if Jaylen's out there, you have a better chance if he can shoot the ball somewhat similarly to what he did over the first seven or eight games. Because you know, if we if we rewind back to twenty eighteen nineteen, when Miles was still the starting main big, you know, there were matchups where teams would cross match that with Thaddius Young, where you know, Miles might hit a couple shots out of the pick and pop. And now Quinn Snyder's made an adjustment and Rudy Gobert's guarding Thad and Jay Crowder's guarding Miles, and now that is being used as a screener and Miles is you know, getting ignored in the corner or like that would happen in Philadelphia, where Ben Simmons would guard Miles. That way he could switch out to the ball when Miles was the screener and ebid with sag off of fad. So you need to find an engineer away number one for him to actually be defended by fives, not just him you know, playing nominal five. Then when you ask the question about the pick and roll situation, I'm of the opinion that opposites a lot of times pair best in the pick and roll ballet. So if you're a ball handler and you come off and you're somebody who surveys, I think you're gonna probably pair better with a roller. And in Tyrese's case, like he's build on you know, his shooting, rang his touch, his ability to manipulate tertiary defenders, that pop pairs really well with a law threat or somebody who's gonna be moving toward the basket. When I wrote the piece about him in the jump passing, you could kind of see how of the pick and pop. Not that he can't make plays out of the pick and pop, he can but you know, when he was working it with Jalen, he doesn't get super deep off of ball screen, so he doesn't always drag that defender away from the shooter in the same way as when he's rumbling downhill with somebody who's rolling. So yeah, I mean, I think that you definitely want Miles his roll frequency to go up, and I'm going to be very curious to find out if that happens because he's playing with Tyrese or you know. I still think that there's some things about him independently of why he doesn't roll. Some of it's his reads, some of it's his center of gravity that if he does see a tag, which doesn't happen that often, but if he does, he doesn't stay on balance super well to be able to finish. And then also finding a balance between setting a screen that sticks and his tendency to I think midway through the season they were kind of working with him on a hop step to get out of the pick quicker and then the ball handler wasn't really getting any benefit from the scre So that's kind of my long soliloquy about that. Tyres Taliberton specifically, I don't know that you've been on the podcast since they acquired him. What were your early impressions of how he did it? Indian? What are you looking most to see from him in his first full season there? Does he have another gear as a you know, a jump pass assist to turnover ratiol? Gay Like, is there another level there? I have watched all of the jump passes I have done that an article was like right up your alley one just like the general like thematic element of it. But that was such a fantastic article. That was the most assisted turnover ratio and Tyris Haliberton's jump passes just incredible. That was the most time consuming thing I've ever done. Like pro pro tip if somebody out there ever's like I want to do some article where there isn't just you know, you can go into NBA dot com and click like jump passes and watch them all and you actually have to go into the film and rewatch twenty six straight games. Like I had an idea and about March that I wanted to write that and I rewatch all these games in the morning. I don't know why I didn't just every morning clip that game's jump pass is to save until August. But I did not, so I had to rewatch all twenty six games in a row, and oh god, that was like I don't know if this has ever happened to you, but you know when you drive for a really long time and you suddenly arrive at your destination and you're not really sure how you got there. Like, yeah, so if you can't watch that many games in a row, otherwise you get to the end of a quarter and you're like, oh, the quarter's over. Now I have to start over because I don't even remember watching that. Like, you to stay vigilant, you can only do like one or two games in a row. But besides the point, tyres, I hope were you at least able to do it before MBA dot com like rebranded their site and made it just like the user interface absolutely terrible. No, I mean it was just me going in and watching full games and just okay, yeah, I had to fast forward through all the defensive possessions and just watch his minutes and clip it. So it was like nine passes per game or something along those lines. But anyways, Tyrese, I think that my initial opinion of him or impressions of him best track to his very first game they played the Calves and the Pacers scored like I believe right or almost forty points in that first quer against the Calves, and right away you could tell that he's a guy that off of makes or missus, really wants to push the ball up the court and get into offense very quickly, clapping for inbounds passes, wanting to have the other way. And then his inclusiveness I think popped right from the beginning that he's somebody that's going to involve his teammates and is going to be able to not only pass to the openman, but also pass people open. That showed up pretty quickly, which that's something else people can read about in that article if they're interested in a more detailed explanation. But then also the fourth quarter of that game, JB. Bickerstaff made an adjustment where they started having Evan Mobley and Jared Allen switch out fully to the ball, and I gave him problems. So that stood out to me as something in part of why you mentioned that he doesn't take a lot of shots, and that's true, Like he only led the Pacers and shot attempts three times after he was traded to the pacers. Some of that is because he can struggle with linked against the switch. He's very efficient at it, and he's very good at getting at his sidestep to the right three. But if he needs to get two feet into the paint against length, that's something that's going to have to come with him finding driving angles and finding other ways to be effective against switches. Beyond that, do you see like a pathway to him being able to do that or does it feel like he's wired to maybe be too deferential in certain situations. I mean, I definitely think that's his default mode. I think that sometimes he doesn't even take good shots and sometimes you know, you make reads and like there's one in the Memphis game, I don't think it. Yeah, it was a jump pass. It wasn't included in the article, but like he comes off the screen and Steven Adams is retreating with Isaiah Jackson on the law because they had caught him on a lab on a couple possessions prior. He has all types of space to just take a bank shot and he the bigs backing up and he just throws it to the opposite corner. So sometimes when he has the big and retreat and he does get below the free throw line, you want him to be looking for that, because I think that's a really valid question when you look at the rest of the starting lineup, Like if it's Duarte and Buddy and Jalen and Miles, that's a lot of spacing around him. But if an opponent says, hey, guess what, we're gonna stay home and face guard all those shooters and we're gonna see if you're gonna beat us from float or range, is he gonna be willing to take enough shots to do that. I think that that's something that the pace you're gonna have to find out, And that's one of the benefits of this lineup because it should be pretty revealing in that regard of who they have out there around him. I do think there's some other ways that he can beat switches. He's pretty decent at relocating. I think that there's some more that they can do with that, where you know, if he does have somebody like Evan Mobley on the ball, pass out of that, get it back cut in front of him, get the ball back in the paint, and now you're beating it off off the catch rather than beating it off the dribble and then Drew Handlin shared some videos too. That's Tyrese's trainer where he was having him work on going to his right using a pound dribble and a hesitation and then using sidestepping to his left, which he does that sometimes, but that's not his go to so opponents like to weak him to his left. So seeing him working on that, if he has the option to go in either direction, that should help him be able to get off some more shots as well. How do you view his fit? I guess long term with Benedict Mathin and also as someone who was smitt with Benedic Mathin after a summer league, what type of offensive agency or the Pacers actually going to give him even if it's just not even just playing time, but like the ability to work with the ball on the offensive side. Yeah, that's a great question because little by little, my at a glance thoughts on Benedict was that a lot of the actions that Arizona ran in the type of offense that they run are very similar to Rick Carlisle, and that when you looked at the on splits between you know, when it was just Tyrese and Buddy on the floor, last year versus when it was Tyres, Buddy and Brogden or just Tyrese and Brogden, like the results were better with Tyrese and Buddy, and in some respects Benedict Mathern's kind of tracking is like a more athletic Buddy in terms of how the two of them can work off of each other, Like Tyrese benefits a lot, like if he does get a switch by having somebody like Buddy or a movement shooter who can be a ghost screener. I think Mathron's a pretty intuitive cutter. Hopefully he can help him with some second side stuff. But out of training camp, I mentioned briefly on our podcast that I had kind of wondered if if Benedict wasn't struggling a little bit with Reads, And maybe struggling is too harsh of a word because he is a rookie, but I just noticed some of the language that they were using that it was like, we're having to like Rick had basically flat out said that they're having to work with you know, aaron N E. Smith and Matherin on you know, playing in flow game and knowing where to go next or where to move next, or you know, show you sidestep this direction or that direction. And that was one of my takeaways when we did the stock Up stock Down series about math, and my stock down was shot selection. And that's not to say that, like, you know, I think that sometimes gets connotated with being a ballhog. I think it's more just an understanding of just because a play is run for you doesn't mean the shot has to be for you. And you know, that's an adjustment going from college to the NBA when a lot of that is being directly run from you and you're having to carry a lot of the scoring burden versus now you're out there with other guys who are also capable of being able to score. It's kind of the opposite, like he and Miles Turner are kind of flip flops of each other, where Miles doesn't always fully unders and that just because a play isn't run for you doesn't mean there's not a shot that you can't go find. And Matherin's kind of like, hey, they're running this DHO play for me. We're out of horns where I go get the ball and that means I dribble down and score even if there's four people collapsed on me like that. That's kind of the giver take where I think you might see a little few hiccups here early on, just based on some of the context clues I've heard out of training camp. And so, do you think that there's going to be like a shorter rope on his playing time to start or do you think they'll give him the license to at least be in the game, play a bunch of minutes, make those mistakes or work through the motions. I think that they're going to give everybody room to play through mistakes. I mean, Rick Carlisle had said that they're going to use a ten man rotation, and I think that's good in a lot of respects for what the trajectory of the team is. Number One, if you're gonna play a faster pace, being able to rotate in a lot of young guys and playing ten deep's gonna help you do that. And number two, it does breed competition that you know, if you're not getting it done, somebody else is going to come in and be ready to play. And you know, number three, I also do think that they're going to get room that you know, they're going to get a lot of guys development minutes and be able to have an opportunity to play. I think he will play. From what I've heard is that he's playing with the second unit, so that would be he, TJ, Him, t J McConnell, Nie Smith, Terry Taylor, and Isaiah Jackson. But they have mixed up lineups a little bit, so I don't know. I might still be up in the air on Wednesday when they play their first preseason game, whether it's Dwart and Buddy or Matherin and Buddy or what combination that is. But it sounds like that for right now that he will be coming off the bench. You already mentioned guaranteed starter Jalen Smith. Does he make less sense with Miles Turner here? Like do you do you think he played well enough to like earn like the credit? Like you mentioned why they might have guaranteed him his starting spot. He also mentioned after the first seven games the hot shooting like sort of plunged down to his normal career levels. What do you sort of make how he's best used? And like is he going to be able to be optimized? Why while Miles Turner is still here? Right? And I understand why they liked him and wanted to be able to retain him. I mean, he does little things, not always super consistently because he doesn't always get consistent opportunity to do them. But like you know, he didn't drive a lot of clothes outs clear to the rim and traditional ways that you would expect like a four to be able to do. But there were a few times where he'd drive baseline and get a floater, or he'd cut into the corner and shoot a three, or they'd use him out of pick and pop high or you know, you know he got a trailer three where it's just little things that you're like, oh, I didn't know he could do that. I think in the sense that what I said before Jalen makes sense for Miles, because if Jalen does shoot the three somewhat decently, he's probably your best option to get Miles defended by fives, especially if o schaber Sett isn't on the floor, because like I said, like in theory, it would probably make more sense to split up, you know, Isaiah Jackson and Terry Taylor with one of each of Jalen and Miles, so that you would have a pop threat and a roll threat balancing each other. Out. But like I said, I think that if Isaiah Jackson is starting you know, quote unquote at the four, he's going to be playing the five and he's going to be putting pressure on the rim as a lob threat, and more fives are going to guard him. So that's that's not really helping Miles in the case of like other ways that you might be able to grow Miles is game of things that he hasn't done in the past, Like he was a decent driver, it didn't show up on high volume last year. But if he's being guarded by a five and what happened to see a closeout which I think he only saw closeouts in like thirty one percent of his shots, but if he did, like that's a backbreaker. Like if you have five, you can take another five off the dribble and get to the rim when there's no rim protector there. Like that's another element of his game that he'd be able to show potentially to interest the teams. And that's probably best had with Jalen. You had written about this, Isaiah Jackson is talking about his ball skills. My question on this, what the hell does this mean? Like, what is what is going to what is about to happen this season. A lot of people have said a lot of positive things about Isaiah Jackson what they've seen at these uh pre pre runs and well as in training camps. So yeah, I'm mean, I think the way that I describe him, and I don't mean this to be derogatory, is that I don't fully know what he is yet in all the ways that you could potentially use him. I was a little bit surprised that he flat out said that, Like Rick Carlisle said, he thinks that I can be, you know, a grabbing go threat off a rebound, because he did some of that at Kentucky, but it was more so in fast break situation. So it's like, you know, he gets a steal, maybe that's at the top of the key, he leads the break there and it's like a two on one situation where he's having to make a play and he's getting to drive in a straight line versus you know, if you're doing like what Sabonus has done in the past, where you're literally grabbing it off the rim, you're potentially bringing it up against five guys, and then you know he would immediately like especially in the Doug McDermott years. Would he immediately flow right into a handoff and be able to create space with contact for that guy to shoot. And last year they even used some inverted screens for him at the elbow where he was like a pick and roll ball handler. Like, I don't think Isaiah Jackson is there with those things yet, So like I think I would be all right with him being an event creator if he gets a block, if he gets this, he collects it, and he leads it. I just think there's some diminishing returns from that because he is such a valuable rim runner and how he sucks in the defense to open up shots for trailers. I don't really know why you need to flip flop those roles when you have you know, Tyrese and t J McConnell available to motor the ball up the floor and be using him as a rim runner. But I would be open because like seventy five percent of his twos or over seventy five percent of his twos were assisted last year. They do need to be able to find out if he can do things beyond finishing, if he gets some reps in the bench units, maybe with like a DHO keeper if he can turn the ball downhill that way or I mentioned in the article, and Adam Spinella and I talked about this on the Eastern Conference pod when we were talking about bigs with ball or biggs as ball handlers, Like if he's playing with TJ McConnell, I just want to speak this into existence. But like TJ McConnell almost always requires a rescreen because you know, he's not a great pull up shooter. People duck under if you play pick and roll with him, Isaiah Jackson's the screener he screens for t J McConnell instead of going to the rescreen. TJ McConnell. Then of it's and Isaiah Jackson can get that then as the DHO handler, like he receives a dribble handoff right near the rim and can use like one or two dribbles to get to the basket. I'm definitely on board for that and seeing if he can do that. But yeah, I'm interested to see what you know, Isaiah Jackson with handles looks like like it sounds like he's been working on that. Like Rick Carlisle mentioned that he thinks that there's more passing to be seen there, which I think maybe he can do a little bit of that on the short roll, but like some excitement of what other things maybe he can do, So we're not going to see them like load up one side of the floor and let him run like an empty side pick and roll. I don't. I don't think we're gonna see like last night with pass Galciokham and Coloco running empty side pick and rolls anytime soon. When I thought about Haliburton and what I love about his game, I feel like, because you have Benn Nick Mathin, because you have Haliburton, because the Miles Turner buddy Healed like trade rumor mill Is, you're bangying about that, we've forgotten nationally about Christa Warte a little bit. And when I think, as I said about Haliburton, I feel like christ Warte might be more mission critical than we give him credit for looking at his development because of how Haliburton plays, and if you don't think that he's going to be able to have that extra gear as a score at least right away, so what developmental indicators are you looking for from Christa Warte entering year two? Right? So I don't always like to take a lot of stock in these games, but you know, it's summertime. So I watched him play with the Dominican Republic and the World Cup qualifying and then they also played a friendly against Saint John's University, so you obviously have to take these things with context. But that plus, he played one Summer League game in Las Vegas where I felt that he looked really composed during that one and didn't need to play beyond that, but I noticed I felt like there were some tangible differences there. Number one, like what I said earlier about Tyres always wanting to sidestep to his right. Duarte is a guy who's pretty formulaic and that he's going to sidestep to his left, and that's even when he's in the right corner. Like if he sees a close out, he wants a sidestep to his If that means he's going up hill, it's a more difficult shot. So like a game, as an example, like O Giana Noobi was shading him to go right as a shooter, and he still stepped back on an above the break three to his left, which made it a much longer, more difficult shot. And then like there was another moment in that same game where Chris Bouche, you know, is probably one of the most aggressive closeout players in the NBA, aggressively flies past him in the air, and instead of like leaning into that to draw contact, he again sidesteps to his left and one of these scrimmages, he just of his own volition sidestep to his right on the right side of the floor, and I was like that that is something if he feels comfortable doing that when the defense isn't even forcing him to do it. And then there was also a monus. I think he had like six free throw attempts in every game he played this summer, which again take it with a grain of salt, but like his finishing at the rim wasn't great last year, So one reason for that is because he wasn't great at taking contact. So, like what you're saying, if he's out there with Tyrese, there's probably a fair amount of time where he's going to be in the corner, so the type of out he's going to seize along the baseline. When he was playing Venezuela in the one game, you could see that he was a lot more physical with his last step in terms of you know, he's getting into the baseline, he's getting back into his defender, seeking that contact and then going up and drawing the foul. And the same thing with him as a shooter when he was in Vegas where he was a little bit more patient, like with that cruse Brouche situation, that if he sees a wild clothes out, like, hey, just take the contact. You don't need to use an evasive, you know, move to get away from it. So those were little things. And then also just watching him as a movement shooter, he quietly did not shoot the ball well off of screens last year, Justin Holliday was having to shoulder a lot of that burden. So for me, like the three words that you use a lot of time with a movement shooter, wait, fake, sprint. He doesn't always set up the guy super well with the fake part of that, like a misdirection cut would benefit him a lot to create a little bit of separation when he's running off of screens. But maybe that was more specific than people were hoping for. That's the answer I was hoping for. And then Christo Arte article was good if no one's looked at it. From looking at how he played over the summer. Kalen did a great job on that as Predictably as usual. So what I found fascinating, And you've talked about how the Pacers have talked about that they were going to focus on playing with pace post trade deadline last year. They're twenty third in transition frequency, but fourth in average offensive possession time and I think third in the share of their shots that came at the rim. How does that happen? And doesn't inform any of the identity that they're going to try to adopt this year because it doesn't sound like it and you weren't dealing with you know, Miles Turner wasn't on the court, for instance, in those situations. But do you make like do you take anything or glean anything from all that? Yeah, that's really hard to sort out, isn't it. Did you get that number from Impredictable on terms of what their average offensive possession time? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, So I mean even when you break that down like they were fourth after a make, eleventh after defensive rebound, eighth after a turnover, and then you look at their transition frequency in their twenty third, So like making that compute in your head like the way that I figured it out, I think, or what I would explain as to how that was happening is I think that because they were playing so many unfamiliar lineups because they had you know what you're saying, Miles and TJ. Warren and Malcolm Brogden out They played like twenty seven different players last year, and that continued even after the trade deadline, where you know they're calling guys up from the G League, maybe Justin Anderson's a starter tonight, or you know, their lineups changed. I think sometimes they were just taking quick shots and that's not always a good thing in the half court. I mean Rick Carlisle even mentioned that the other day with regards to their transition defense, Like something I've hear him say a lot is we need to take the best shot for the team, because if you don't, like, you know, fast break mislay up where a guard falls under the baskets, like the most fast breakable shot you can give up. And they were the worst transition defense team in the NBA after the trade deadline. So I think sometimes like, yeah, they weren't getting easy shots out of transition. They were taking very quick shots in the half court because they weren't working the ball through all of their options. These aren't guys who are necessarily used to playing with each other, I think is and and to Tyrese's credit, sometimes they did run very quick hitting actions where yeah, now it's a half court play, but it's a double drag. Tyrese makes a you know, a read really quickly and it's like one direct pass and you're scoring. And the rim frequency I think is mostly a product of just that, like running double drags for Tyrese, Isaiah Jackson and Goga and the rest of the bigs were pretty much accounting for most of that rim frequency, with the exception of o'she who's just a really good cutter. And so do you think the team is built right now to put more of an emphasis on getting some of the let's call it like good early offense where it's actual transition rather than just early in the shot clock. Yes, I think that if you look at their draft, like I don't think that Kendall Brown's going to be right away in their rotation or something, but looking at their last two drafts, like Isaiah Jackson naturally wants to run like I even have a possession in that five Stats article where he literally is has his hands up and ready on a defensive possession to catch a pass. Tyrese Albert wants to do this. Benedict Mathren outruns people. I mean, your pace is not only just a factor of people running fast, but they have all the way down the roster. T J McConnell push his pace, buddy, he'll near the top of the league and sprinting to the line and taking you know, early threes and transition situations. So that leads me to believe that organizationally, and they've talked about wanting to upgrade the athleticism by comparison to last year, but it leads me to believe that everybody's going to be on board with it, more so than what was the case early on last season when there was literal games where you could like see that Rick Carlisle was doing pace control guys looking to the bench and you could hear him saying like, hold it, hold it. We want to get into offense. I think that they're going to let them play and have that go into flow game from there. But if it doesn't happen, we're not going to be able to point fingers and be like, well, Malcolm Brogden's methodical paces to play for this, so we'll see. Oh, I'm not big on ascribing value to specific positions, but how do you feel about this teams like true wing depth right now where if you look at it, you mentioned Kendall Brown might not play right away. So it's like Andrew Naismith seems wildly important to this team at the moment, and that's probably not a great place to be. Yeah, I mean, they don't have any like I mean, yeah, you really can't name anybody who's technically a wing like buddy as you're starting three, it seems like it's going to be still right, that's just yeah, before we do. It's weird for everybody. Yeah, I don't. It does feel like, I mean, I value positions to an extent. I understand that more and more in today's NBA you're matching skill to roll much more than size to roll in terms of what people are going to do on a court. And I think that that's correct, Like I think that you know, yeah, Terry Taylor's only six five, but you know roll that guy. Let let him catch highlo passes by all means. But it does feel like there's a certain number of people that they're gonna have to be playing several wonky lineups a lot of times, because like I don't know if you saw it, but right before we hopped on, one of the reporters at the Orlando Sentinel said that I believe Mo Bamba had confirmed that they've run lineups with Paolo ban Caro at the one and Franz Wagner at the two. So like, just imagine the page get right into my veins. I talked to Kobe Price to the Oorano cent'al about that before, like when we did the Magic look Ahead. I love those those weird old Wow, you know I love weirdo walking lineup. I'm sorry for interjecting, but that when I saw when I saw Boba talking about that, I was like, yes, we need to see it. I need then. And then last night I watched a little bit of the Raptors play the Jazz in preseason, and they were running out their normal like siakam Og Sad Scottie Precious, Like yeah, I mean I think like just those two teams alone, like how are the Pacers matching up with those two units perfect? Like you're just gonna have to be running guys constantly through flares and pins, Like that's that's basically your your method of madness there, Like you're just gonna have to run the link through constant off ball mazes of screens because you're not guarding them. Like how how is how is a lineup with like potentially four guards keeping anybody out of the paint. But like, yeah, I think that aaron N. E. Smith, he did not have a very good summer league. I don't blame that completely on him. The situation with Malcolm Brogden and how long that physical dragged out after that trade went on. I don't think he really got any practice time in. I don't also see a lot of upside to playing third year guys in summer league unless like they're on the bubble, like you know, they may not make a roster, like Aaron E. Smith was definitely making this roster after you had traded Malcolm Brogden to Boston. But I think that, like, I don't think it's a stretch to say he's probably their best on ball defender at this point in time, and like, and I know, I know that he gets into crash mode and has issues defensively at finishing plays. Without fouling. I think he would have fouled out of like two of the Summer league games that he played in if they were regulation games. But this is more just the commentary on the rest of the roster. I think that there is more that Aaroni Smith can do as a defender, and he's going to get opportunity. I fully expect that he'll be, you know, the backup wing at the second unit. But yeah, I don't think it's a stretch right now to think that he's their best on ball defender, though that has been a point of emphasis at in camp. They will eventually make changes. Bes right now when you're considering the rotation heading into the regular season because this team is so guard heavy, I'm like, I guess not big heavy. But you have Isaiah Jackson, you have Jalen Smith, you have Miles Turner, who, if you want to drump his trade value needs to play. Who has the potential like get squeezed out of this? Like do we not see a lot of Goga? Does Terry Taylor gets squeezed? Do we not see enough of o Shae Brissett? Which would break my heart? But you know what, like is there in danger early on or not a danger. But do you see anyone that you would probably like to see more of who could get squeezed out of this early season rotation. Yeah, I mean it's unfortunate because two of my favorite role players O Shape Berset and Terry Taylor. It feels like they're somewhat head to head with each other at the backup four spot, because if you're playing aaron Nie Smith at backup three, there's only going to be a spot for one person, and by all accounts, Terry Taylor had a very tremendous summer. There was a lot of talk about him being in the gyms, showing up doing what he needed to do. And then two of the summer league James, who's very good, Like, I don't think that I'll be curious to see against NBA level competition what it looks like when you have Terry and I Jack's playing at the same time when neither is necessarily like a really credible shooting threat, but Terry's also just really smart, and like before they acquire Daniel Tis, who probably isn't gonna play very much, if at all, like Terry's probably the best screener on the team other than Daniel Tye, Like I'm not I'm not remotely joking. Like he said, Gore Tott screens. He knows what angles he needs to be at, even when he's in the corner, like he needs to be better shooting corner threes, but like he'll immediately go into an uphill dho. There were moments in those games when they were out there with Isaiah Jackson in Summer League where like Isaiah Jackson is throwing post entry passes high low to Terry Taylor's six five body in the paint, Like I love that kind of stuff. So, like I really do like Terry Taylor, but it just kind of feels like that's going to be a choice. And right now, based on what units they've had out there, which I do think that they started mixing things up a little bit yesterday, that it looks like Terry's gonna get the nod. So it's possible that O shape set might not be in the immediate rotation. So between Terry Taylor's screening and Isaiah Jackson's premier ball hand ling, like, could we maybe see some inverted picking roll there? I mean, apparently we're perfectly fine flashing him up to the top of the key. I mean, what's funny is sometimes biggs are better at post entry passes than guards just because they do have longer arms and can throw the ball up over the top. Like there were times where Miles was better at throwing post entry passes than Malcolm Brogden and Carrass last year. That's not something I'd considered, but I guess that makes a lot of sense. It's the same. It's the same up in Toronto, like Fred van Fleet can't throw like a post entry pass to save his life, but like Pascal siakam really good at it. So we I guess danced around the rotation, but like, what does a ten man rotation look like? And it does feel like early on that they'll have locks, like I would assume Hallie Mathin, Healed Smith, Turner Duarte and McConnell and Isaiah Jackson give you eight locks for the rotation unless anyone I name there you think might get squeezed out? And then how they're all would you flushed out the final two? Yeah? Rick said that he's playing ten deep, so I think it's gonna be Terry Terry and Aaron E. Smith in addition to the eight you just named. Uh yeah, I mean AARONI Smith should have been Locke in my book too, based off their wing, their way spot, and so you think they're gonna stick true to ten deep. There's not gonna be like just empty the bench situations because they're in full on experimental mode. Yeah, I mean it's possible. I mean I think that. I think that other people will get chances, Like I expect that Andrew m art at some point in times probably gonna get opportunities. Plus, Like I mean, I guess, knock on wood, they've been pretty durable during training camp for once, and they're existence here recently where they don't have a lot of people sitting out. But yeah, I mean it's gonna be curious what they do. I mean Daniel Ties, Like Rick Carlisle had a lot of really nice things to say about Daniel Ties and being a solid big and a good screener and knowing where he needs to be and they Yeah, I think he even went so far as to say he's a starting caliber big on a lot of teams, and he's like, but you know, we got a lot to figure out. So like what you're doing with he and yoga, I will say you asked me earlier if I was surprised that Miles was still on the roster. If you would have asked me a month ago, will Goga, Daniel Tye and Miles all three still be on the roster? I would have been very surprised by that. If they didn't move one of them so they can run. They can run. You want a funky lineup, run all three of them and Isaiah Jackson and Terry Taylor. You can run five centers. I guess Jackson's your point guard in that situation. Then oh yeah. So when you do look at this team and how big heavy it is, how guard heavy it is, how wing light it is, what is how are they going to defend? What is their defensive identity going to be? And that's been the biggest mystery, right at least has been for me because last year, like and I won't rehash all the history, but played a conservative scheme under Nate McMillan. Naybe Orkin does not play a conservative scheme, Very over aggressive, lots of zone coverages, very autopilot, expecting Sabonis to be able to defend like he's Miles Turner when he isn't. Rick Carlisle enters and play coaches more to the personnel uses Sabonis at or above the level of the screen, moves Miles around some, but more so as you know, the rim protecting Drop big that we know that he can be dominant at being And then throughout the season their on ball defense was just so you know, had so many holes and they had so many injuries that they ended up playing both bigs either at or above the level around the COVID time until they ended up making the trade and then move more towards switching, and then occasionally would still have Isaiah Jackson do some and drop, but he was more equipped to be switching, and Jalen was doing a lot of switching when he was at the five. So I genuinely didn't know, Like for teams midway through the season, it's easier to go and teach switching on the fly than it would be drop or you know, hedge, and they didn't really have the link to be doing hedge anyways, if we're being completely honest. So I didn't know what to expect. But Tyres dropped a lot of breadcrumbs the other day leading me to believe that their defense is going to be very personnel specific, because he had mentioned, like, you know that guys are going to have to be very aware of who's on the floor at what time because they do with two bigs is going to be different than what they do with four guards. And that's going to be different than when Miles is at the five or if Jalen Smith is at the five, or if Isaiah Jackson's at the five, and that they will be doing some switching and they will be doing some drop. So that tells me that like last year when they were having to balance running a lot of different schemes based on which big was on the floor and also what your opponent's doing, that this is going to be a lot for young players to be keeping track of. And I understand why they're doing it. And if you think that this is the way the NBA's going and being able to, you know, do quote unquote more random defense where you can throw a lot of different looks and especially if you don't have a lot of size on your hand on your side, being able to show your opponent lots of different pick and roll coverages where maybe you're not even doing the same thing, multiple possessions in the row is going to keep opponents more off balance. But can your young players handle doing that? That's the kind of the big question that I have. Do you think Jalen Smith I don't mean to think about do you think Jalen Smith specifically can handle doing that? Here's what I'll say after the trade deadline, if you were to compare, there was reasons why Rick was playing Jalen over Goga, but Todd's I'll just put it that way, like Goga unless he can sit in a spot and wind up. I don't really know what defensive scheme you play with Goga that you hope to be successful with. And they were doing more switching, and like sometimes it would borderline like if you watch them play against Minnesota when they were trying to switch, it looked like Goga like stubbed his toe when D'Angelo Russell dribbled past him. Like that's the visual I would use, like he just gets stuck in mud and it's just over. At that point in time, Jalen could at least execute the switch. Goga doesn't always even communicate what type of coverage is happening, and then you'll end up with like a two on the roller situation and switch and switch situations, Jalen executes it, he just can't necessarily play close enough to the ball. So for him at the four, I know that they've talked about this. They want him to continue trying to get more mobile, being able to play closer to guards. That leads me to think that they're going to try to switch one through four at the very least, because like this is a bad example, because Anthony Edwards is Anthony Edwards, but he couldn't play close enough to even hope to take away his step back or like Darius Garland ethered them for like nine possessions in a row when they were playing switch with Jalen at the five. That's in part why I think that Phoenix didn't want to play Jalen and eight and together really that much, and why Jalen was getting squeezed because Aton was probably better at defending and space than he was. Yeah, so that's an area where he still needs to improve, But I do think he got a little bit better over the back end of the season. I don't know how much we'll see him as solo five, given how many options they have and that they're saying that he's the starting power forward, So how should we go about measuring progress for this team when they're not focused on wings? And I think we can easily not easily, but you can look at like individual development, but from like an entire aggregate perspective. What's important to consider when gauging how this Pacer season is going, right, and that's going to change as the season goes on, right, Because when I picked my five numbers that I wanted to that, like I'm looking at these things for this season, a lot of that was based on, you know, here's what's gonna boost Miles as trade value or what's gonna work for Miles and you know, midway through the season that might not matter so much as any as much anymore. But like problem areas that they had last year, not that you're expecting them to completely remedy them, but their transition defense being as bad as it was in conjunction with the fact that they also couldn't keep opponents off the defensive or off the glass like they were twenty fifth and opponent offensive rebunding rate. You can't be bad at both those things or opponents like Toronto and Memphis that load up on possessions. There's a reason why the Pacers lost those games by you know, forty points apiece almost You gotta figure out what are you doing there, Like, are you still going to send so many people to the offensive glass yourself because you have to do that to try to keep up with how many second chance points you're giving up at the other end, or are you're gonna taper some of that back so that you can help your transition defense and maybe maybe some of the transition stuff have you know, fixes itself somewhat organically because of a few things. You know, you're gonna have Miles at least at the beginning of the season where if he is popping, he can get back more quickly as a popper than what somebody who's rolling under the basket can. Plus he's you know, obviously the best defensive option they have at the five. If he's getting back as a rim protector, that's one thing your shot selection. If they do take better shots, that helps your transition defense. But also sometimes they were just really I felt overaggressive going and getting offensive rebounds. Like in that article I point out like Buddy goes from the left wing to get a rebound from Terry Taylor shooting in the right corner, Like that's just compromising your ability to get back and fast break away too much, where they probably need to be a little bit more specific. But you know, this has been one of the knocks on Miles over his career that you know, he hasn't had great defensive rebounding numbers. I think if you look at his like real adjusted defensive plus minus, he was like it ranked like one hundred and thirtieth, and that was like the best he's ever done in that particular metric this year, So Jalen was probably their most impactful defensive rebounder. It again, like I'm not expecting you to be like some great rebounding team. It's just I want to be able to look at those types of issues and no like is this personnel going to be capable of fixing that or what type of solution? How can you mitigate it? Can you take enough freeze that it doesn't matter? So like that type of an area what we said earlier about will they play faster, because I do think this roster is suited to that. So will you be able to get in transition more? That's another thing that just from a team perspective, I'm going to be monitoring, and obviously we know that their defense as a whole was dead last in the NBA after the deadline, So can I understand what your mission is? Does it look like people are building habits on that end of the floor. Those are some of the broad strokes that I would be taking in addition to just you know, little individual player developments throughout the year. Does it get harder for you to cover and analyze this team at all given where they're at, because how do you separate between can this scale forward with what they're doing? Or how much does it even? How much does it just actually mean? Because will this player miles starters? Specifically, you could go to will he be around? Like trying to figure out who's actually staying and how long are they going to play this way? Is this just a byproduct of you know, if a players having success like a Terry Taylor, is this just a byproduct of a situation an opportunity he wouldn't have elsewhere? And how would it scale a winning Is that like a challenge for you to joggle it all when you're really getting into the weeds on a team at this point in their development. Yeah, And I think that that's part of the problem with like the segmentation, because when you're entering a season and you know who's going to be on the roster or you have a pretty good idea because let's let's face it, like if Myles and Buddy weren't on here, I don't think that you're readily looking to trade any of those other guys right right away unless some opportunity just blows you away. So it's kind of easier to evaluate what that group is doing versus because I mean, I think I did a pod with Tony East where we ranked three storylines and neither of us even picked Miles because like, for me, it was kind of like, you know, if he is going to get moved and he isn't going to sign an extension, how much do I care about these actual basketball I mean I care in the sense that you know, hopefully his value gets better for the Pacers' perspective, but otherwise, like it becomes a little bit more difficult. But me, for me personally, like when we mentioned that stuff with Herb Simon, I've never really covered a Pacer team like this before, so some of it's gonna be a learning curve for me as well. Honestly, like I've I've never been like a lot of my coverage before it was like, how can the Pacers optimize winning? Looking at different coaching aspects of the way that they're using people, like during the Burecan season, being like, hey, like they don't know what they're doing in these zone coverages at all. They can't keep going over on every screen. That type of stuff still matters, but it matters in a different context. So I think for me personally, it'll be a lot more just measuring, you know, individual players, and I think like in Terry Taylor's case or in O'shape or Set's case, I can look at both of them and see certain ways where if they were on a winning team, some of the stuff that they do might actually show up a little bit more like in O'Shea's case, Like I know, stuff came up with Phoenix. If he's out there and there's other players like Devin Booker and Chris Paul and Aten taking attention away from him, his ability to cuts probably going to be even more helpful, and his ability to finish on the cut might be even easier, if that makes sense, Like I know that Tyrese is the great pastor than he is, but there's going to be more gaps for him to manipulate, and some of the stuff that he does defensively isn't going to show up quite as much. So, I mean, that's kind of the way that I would look at it. I like to use Phoenix as an example because I saw there's like a subsection of SuDS Twitter that was talking about how O shaber set sucks and kind of hurt my soul. That's that's hard to take. I don't I guess. I mean, he may not be in this rebuilding rotation depending upon how the pacers see things, but I do think that he does a lot of things like this is going to be a cliche that don't show up in a box score, where he keeps the ball alive on offensive possessions. He's a very intuitive cutter, and not just for Tim to get shots as the cutter himself, but you know cut assists where you're manipulating the weak side and opening up a corner three for somebody else, or you know, if if they're switching, he'll go set a flare screen and slip out of it to help the guy on ball be able to attack that switch. Constantly setting flares and pins to occupy help the fenders, and ways that aren't completely scripted. A lot of stuff like that where if O Shaper sets on your team, you're going to enjoy watching and play. I will be prescheduling my free O shaper set tweets if he's not in the in the rotation season. So this is such a loaded question for this team, and you can kind of even try to like project it like beyond the Miles like killed or if something happens with there, but what should be there go to crunch time unit or do you think there's gonna be like so much experimentation where we're sitting here and it's like tires Haliburton's a lock and that's kind of about it. Yeah, I mean they flexed it some last year where I again, they're probably gonna adjust to their opponent, Like if Miles is on the team and Buddies on the team, there's you're probably not benching them, to be honest, even if it makes more sense to be playing maybe Duarte in la game situation, because one, you want him to get the experience and or I use math and you want them to get the experience and maybe defensively, you're going to get more out of them than Buddy. Like, I don't think it looks particularly good to trade partners of like, Hey, these two guys that we want to send you, we don't even want to play him in crunch time on a rebuilding team, Like you're probably not going to do that, So those two, And also I just don't know who would be better to be playing Miles than Miles now in that situation, it's not like you have Demontes Sabonis and you know whatever else, But in Tyrese you can probably pencil them in. But I would think the other two they might be open, depending upon what happens, because like one example I would give is they were playing Cleveland at home late in a game and they had Brogden, Dwayne Washington Buddy and it wasn't Chris because he wasn't healthy, but it was another guard. Brogden was effectively playing at the four opposite of Lori Marken in to be able to attack that match up. So I think that they'll probably be open to it. But like I just feel like there's so much I don't know about this team because like we've never seen these first five people even play together, so to really project I don't completely know. Is there a weirdo quirky Bochner's lineup you want to see Rick Carlisle roll out this year? Okay, So what we were talking about earlier with like Orlando doing that in Toronto doing that and me saying, I have no idea how they're going to guard those types of units. I don't know if Rick Carlisle would do it, But there's a tiny piece of me that wonders if they would be willing to play Jalen, Isaiah Jackson, and Miles all at the same time. There's a tiny piece not because and not because I really like Jalen doesn't do a lot of traditional like winglike things like very famously, Monty Williams had a quote where it was like, no, when he was drafted, we saw him as like a Jeremy Grant type player, and he's not that he's a five like I think I generally agree with that sentiment, but if you need to get more linked out there, I would really like to see Isaiah Jackson also defensively because of what his foul rate is in like the Romer role, like what Robert Williams does for Boston, like use Miles to be protecting the rim and let Isaiah Jackson go into his natural inclination and to be, you know, as an event creator, getting steals, blocking shots on the perimeter. And then maybe maybe if Jalen just has some links, he can do something there. Like I don't feel good about this lineup. I don't, but like when when we're talking about like Buddy having to guard like potentially Pascal Siak, I'm up in Toronto, like what else are you gonna do? Like I wouldn't mind seeing them upsize a bit and see if that's something that could be at all viable. I think, as you know, I prefer to see them see teams downsize, and so I would like, well, they will do that. They will one hundred percent do that. I want to see Isaiah Jackson and four Smalls, So basically five Smalls because Isaiah Jackson we've decided as a point guard now, so give me Isaiah with Hallie and mathin dar Day and then maybe Brissette's too big for this lineup, but I want Brissette to play. But if not Brissette, then Terry Taylor and let me just see what that lineup does see that's not a weirdo line up though, because though one hundred percent do that, like we'll see that lineup, I bet and most games that's fair you out weird in me. On my favorite question the podcast, I tried to figure out the weirdest thing I could think of, Like that's where I went. I guess I just never envisioned the scenario where like Jay and Smith is playing with Miles Turner and Isaiah Jackson like that, Well, it's it's probably not gonna happen. Like Rick Carlisle, I think pretty clearly wasn't like in love with playing Turner and Sibonis together. But it does seem like they're gonna be playing a fair amount of two big lineups just by virtue of who they have. But if they're playing a super jumbo sized team, I just I just wonder if you could play them all three at the same time. So as we record this, their win total is set at twenty three point five, would you smash the over or the under on that? If the roster is what it is, it kind of depends, like I don't know, like if Miles surprises me and we're to sign an extension, I think my inclination would be to punch the over. It's not because I think that like Buddy and Miles are going to get them a bunch of extra wins, because like, just for example, like Buddy was playing big minutes for them and they still lost the last ten games of the year last year. But when Buddy and Tyrese were on the floor, the two of them fit so well offensively that they scored one hundred and seventeen points per one hundred, which would have been like the equivalent of the best offense during those minutes. So like, defensively, if Miles provides you with any type of floor, you could be close to being right at you know, hovering on a positive net rating with how bad their defense was, if their offense can still produce with them out there. So like, if they don't find a trade for them quickly, I would take the over on twenty three and a half wins. But like if something were to materialize, like let's pretend Rob Pulinka wakes up and it's like, oh, we cannot run this back. We've looked awful in preseason. The fans aren't gonna take this. We're gonna give up both picks and they're unprotected, then I might lean the under. Yeah, twenty three and a half is just so low. Yeah, I think that. When I was asked, I said that I was putting it at twenty seven and a half. That's where I would have put the line at. I've hit the over on like every single team. I've done a look ahead, so clearly I need to go back and look at my record projections because the math isn't mathing at the moment. I'm just too high on everybody. Twenty three and a half just feels so low. Where do you think day this is? I don't want to ask you where you think they sit relative to the Eastern Conference, but if they're teams that you can identify that they will be better than in the Eastern Conference this season definitively. Yeah, that was Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, Like I guess you're pointing at Orlando and Detroit, but I don't even know that I would definitively say that they'll be better than them. I think it's very realistic, like they might surprise you and be plucky and like maybe things really break right for them. Maybe other teams have injuries or stuff that doesn't click, and maybe they're you know, I think it would kind of be. People are probably gonna be mad, but probably be a worst case scenario if you're like nipping at a fake play in tournament bid and they decide to hold their chips because oh, let's let's not make trades because we can make the play in tournament being better than the knicks of the Hornets, and that's like, yeah, yeah, I mean, I don't know the Hornets. The Hornets are pretty iffy for me as well, so it's possible they could be better than that team. But I could say that if you told me that they finished with the worst record in the Eastern Conference or they were better than three of those teams, I would be like, yeah, that seems fair. Charlotte would be the third team identify there as well. I just I trust Steve Clifford. My gut instincts for any other team basically not every other team, but most of them would be this team will be the worst in the East because they're incentivized to do so, they're gonna move Turner. I don't really think Buddy hell To impacts you one way or the other. When we're looking at the overarching wind total. But because it's the Pacers and what they're doing right now still feel so like anti Pacers or is the antithesis of what the Pacers have done. They're still like, not even the back of my mind, but the middle of my mind, I'm like, are they really gonna lean into it this much to where they trade Miles Turner and they're they're going to be this bad and this experimental, And so that's what gives me pause where I'm like, well, maybe they could still be better than a Detroit orn Orlando or a Charlotte or a team that might end up being just more experimental or invested in self discovery or just blowing it up. Then the Pacers don't have to blow it up. Let me'd be clear, But like they might just decide, as you already mentioned, if they decide to keep Miles Turner be like through the season. Yeah. And some of it too might have might have to do with what they're seeing from Tyrese, because I mean, we talked earlier about him not taking a lot of shots. But and this is a stat I've brought up a lot, but like last year, there was thirty nine players who averaged at least five minutes in time of possession, and the only person among those thirty nine with a lower usage rate than Tyrese was Kyle Lowry with the Heat. Over the last ten years, the only guards who have made an All Star team with a usage rate below twenty percent was Chris Paul last year, Steve Nash in his final year with the Phoenix Suns, and Kyle Lowry during Toronto's championship run. So, like, this just does not happen very often. So like, if you're the Pacers, like maybe Tyrese comes out and he's taking more shots and he looks like like, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that Tyrese could be an All Star conversations if he's playing really well, do so. I think he's one percent going to make it. No, but I think people could be bringing his name up. Like if that's happening, then maybe you feel okay not necessarily moving people, especially if you feel confident that maybe Miles changes his mind, things are going well, maybe he would want to resign. But if those things aren't happening, like you have to find that guy in the draft. And that's not to say that that Tyrese isn't a tremendous player. He's the best point guard I've seen play for the Pacers in my lifetime. Like I feel fine saying that, but like, if he's not going to be a top scoring option, you have to get that guy in the draft and they're gonna need to pivot. Is there anything or anyone about this team I didn't ask you about that you think we need to discuss. I think that I think that your questions were very comprehensive. Personally, I think that, I mean, you ask me stuff that I've written like two thousand word articles about, and it seemed like you were just as well versed in those things as I was. So it's almost like I read Caitlin Cooper for anyone who skipped the intro. Are you able to tell our listener where they can find you and all the fantastic work that you put out right? So my handles at C two underscore Cooper. If you're watching on YouTube, it's under my face. If you're not, then you've heard me say it as he just said. I'm at Andy Cornrows a couple times a week, and then we do have a podcast that is semi regular, depending upon what Mark and I schedules are like. But we'll be doing that throughout the season this year as well. I do have one last question, what is the single best Outshine popsicle flavor? Oh, strawberry is still the goat. Strawberry is still number one if you haven't tried Outshine popsicles before, That's where I would always send people first as like your gateway popsicle strawberry, and then my next two are I have really come to love the grape and also the peach. Those those are a peach. All the peaches top notch, like when you get Outshine. Like. The one thing I would tell people about the grape is I think that we've been conditioned, like when you eat a grape jolly rancher or you know, grape flavored things like that doesn't taste like grape like the next Yeah, we just accept that that is grape flavor. Like an Outshine popsicle taste like grape and it is delicious. Like people, I have an Outshine popsicle every day I do. I have a staple box and then I always keep another box that takes me longer to finish a staple box of strawberry and one other kind that is devotion. My brand loyalty is very strong. Yeah, do you have like have you signed a sponsorship with them just yet? Like? How do they not sponsor the any Cornrows podcast? At the very least they sent me stuff. They sent me a box of coupons off beach ball, a stress ball, and a pin and a letter that said I was a friend of Outshine. They need to make you like an ambassador. Look how much free advertising I give them. Thank you so much for giving me a bunch of your time. As always, this was great, as you know my now I will be pesturing you again in the future, and again if you're not following Caitlyn on Twitter at C two Underscores Cooper and until next time, Caitlyn again, thank thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me