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That survey 9 00:00:57,439 --> 00:01:03,479 is at Texas Tribune dot org slash trib cast survey all one word. We 10 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:19,560 appreciate your feedback. Hello, and welcome to the Texas Tribune trip Cast for 11 00:01:19,599 --> 00:01:23,400 August fourth, twenty twenty three. My name is Matthew Watkins, Managing editor 12 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,359 of News for the Tribune, and this week we were going to talk about 13 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,640 Texas A and M University. The school has been thrown into turmoil the past 14 00:01:30,719 --> 00:01:34,959 month due to two cases in which questions were raised about academic freedom and the 15 00:01:36,079 --> 00:01:40,560 influenced politics and personnel decisions at the school. The first one kind of broke 16 00:01:40,599 --> 00:01:46,000 out into the news on June lie eleventh, when Kathleen McElroy, a former 17 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,439 editor of The New York Time at the New York Times and former director of 18 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,200 the UT Austin Journalism Program, who had been announced, you know, weeks 19 00:01:53,239 --> 00:01:57,719 earlier too much celebration to be leading the revived journalism program at A and M, 20 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,560 told one of our guests today, Kate McGee, that she would no 21 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:05,400 longer be joining her all in the matter. The reason was that A and 22 00:02:05,519 --> 00:02:08,840 M had essentially walked back her offer of a tenured position because of, as 23 00:02:08,879 --> 00:02:14,039 she was told d EI hysteria. It seemed that some people in power had 24 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,240 raised concerns about Nacole Roy, a black woman, leading the program, due 25 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,759 to her association with the New York Times and her work to support students and 26 00:02:21,879 --> 00:02:25,759 journalists of color. You know. News of this development sparked outrage. The 27 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,960 president at A and M eventually resigned Kathy Banks. But two weeks after that 28 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:36,400 story came out, Kate and her colleague James Brian reported on the case of 29 00:02:36,479 --> 00:02:39,319 Joy Alonzo, another A and M professor, this one in the School of 30 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:45,080 Health, who had been placed on paid administrative leave after she was accused of 31 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:50,960 criticizing Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick in a lecture at the University of Texas Medical Branch 32 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,639 in Galveston. She was censured by UTMB, but later allowed to return to 33 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:59,000 her job at A and M, but only after a warning about, you 34 00:02:59,039 --> 00:03:02,240 know what, to be careful about what she said in lectures. Before we 35 00:03:04,039 --> 00:03:07,960 announced the guests, I should probably make my own little disclosure here, which 36 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,000 is that I am a two thousand and eight graduate of Texas A and M. 37 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:15,120 Some would say I'm an obnoxiously loud aggie football fan. I'm not sure 38 00:03:15,159 --> 00:03:19,719 if that's a fair classification, though I also served on the committee that explored 39 00:03:19,759 --> 00:03:24,280 bringing back journalism to Texas A and M. I've met Kathleen mackerel mackel relay 40 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:29,599 several times through you know, the small aggie journalism circles, including one time 41 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,960 sixteen years ago when she gave twenty two year old me a tour of the 42 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:36,879 New York Times building. But let's introduce our guests. First of all. 43 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,000 Kate McGee, Hey, Kate did you know that I went to Adam and 44 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:45,240 I had an inkling, but I had not I wasn't really completely sure. 45 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,879 Yeah, okay, very good. And Kate of course covers higher education for 46 00:03:49,919 --> 00:03:53,639 the Tribune, and James Barragan, who covers politics. Hey James, Hey 47 00:03:53,680 --> 00:04:00,000 Matthew. All right, so let's talk about what happened in the developed these 48 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,639 two stories this week. This has been in the news for a couple of 49 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:11,719 weeks, but yesterday on Thursday, in and put out kind of reports detailing 50 00:04:11,759 --> 00:04:16,040 what they found when they investigated these cases, both the Alonso case and the 51 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,279 maclroy case. Kate, you had a story on this. Can you kind 52 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:25,519 of tell us the top lines of what they found in that investigation? Sure? 53 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,279 So it was a huge report. I mean, it was a five 54 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:34,720 page kind of summary bulleting exactly what they determined to have happened based on interviews 55 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:42,240 with everyone involved. And then along with that report came about five hundred pages 56 00:04:42,319 --> 00:04:49,000 plus of emails and text messages internally from Boards of Region met Board of Regents 57 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:55,959 members and between former A and M president Kathy Banks and some of the other 58 00:04:56,759 --> 00:05:03,759 kind of department level employees discussing all this higher and kind of detailing the behind 59 00:05:03,759 --> 00:05:12,079 the scenes negotiations of what had happened to ultimately lead Macilroy to decide not to 60 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:17,800 come and take this position. The report confirmed that the regents, multiple regents 61 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:26,480 had voice concerns about macilroy's kind of perceived left leaning credentials, that she came 62 00:05:26,519 --> 00:05:30,639 from The New York Times, that she had come from UT Austin, and 63 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:35,920 that their idea or their perception was that this new journalism program was supposed to 64 00:05:35,959 --> 00:05:42,800 be bringing more conservative voices into journalism and that this higher was going to make 65 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:48,639 it more difficult to do that. The text messages also confirmed that President Banks 66 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:54,439 or former President Banks, was very heavily involved in these negotiations, even though 67 00:05:54,439 --> 00:06:00,759 she had told the Faculty Senate that she had no idea that the offer letters 68 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,920 and the kind of negotiations with macilroy had been watered down since the original letter 69 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:12,879 was signed by macilroy in mid June, the text messages show that she was, 70 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,920 you know, having lots of back and forth about the different changes that 71 00:06:15,959 --> 00:06:20,000 A and M was proposing to macilroy, and there was some really kind of 72 00:06:20,079 --> 00:06:27,199 ugly comments about McElroy between her and the interim Dean of the College of Arts 73 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,600 and Sciences who also resigned from that post, jose Bermudez. And then ultimately 74 00:06:31,639 --> 00:06:35,160 the other big news was that the school settled with macilroy over all of this, 75 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:40,720 and she walked away with a million dollars from the university and is now 76 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,920 going to be able to stay in Austin and she will be, you know, 77 00:06:43,959 --> 00:06:48,319 still teaching at ut Austin this fall, James. They also looked into 78 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,959 the Joy Alonzo case. Do you want to give us a recap of what 79 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:58,000 happened there? Yeah, Well, essentially it's a case of political interference in 80 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,439 an academic work and what they can or can't say while giving a lecture on 81 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:09,160 their own topic of expertise. What happened with Professor Joey Alonzo, or respected 82 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,920 opioids expert in the state, is that in March she gave a guest lecture 83 00:07:14,079 --> 00:07:18,040 at UTMB in Galveston where she talked about the opioid epidemic. You know, 84 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,639 we were not at the lecture obviously, and there's no recording of it, 85 00:07:23,399 --> 00:07:29,279 but Kate got slides of her PowerPoint presentation, so we saw that it was 86 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:35,439 about the opioid epidemic, how to administer in a lock zone to save lives 87 00:07:35,519 --> 00:07:41,519 and policies that may help in the opioid epidemic, and everything seemed to be 88 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:46,000 going gravy. She'd done this talk several years in a row at UTMB. 89 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:51,319 She's given this talk, she said, thousands of times. But then to 90 00:07:51,399 --> 00:07:57,319 her surprise, when she got home back to college station, she had phone 91 00:07:57,319 --> 00:08:01,079 calls and emails saying, hey, we need to get in touch with you. 92 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,600 There's been a problem, there's been an issue, and she was put 93 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:11,480 on administrative leave. Now, our reporting found that the Land Commissioner Don Buckingham's 94 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,720 daughter is the first year medical student at UTMB, and that she attended the 95 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:22,439 lecture. After that, Don Buckingham called ut I'm sorry, A and M 96 00:08:22,519 --> 00:08:31,079 University System and Chancellor John Sharpe as well as I'm sorry Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick 97 00:08:31,199 --> 00:08:35,320 and the university system's government relations people. And then Dan Patrick gout in touch 98 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,879 with John Sharp about this comment, and you know, just a few hours 99 00:08:39,919 --> 00:08:43,039 later, Joey Alonzo was placed on administrative leaves. A whole fiasco because nobody 100 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:48,240 would tell us exactly what the comment was, but it eventually came out or 101 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:54,279 Don Buckingham eventually confirmed all our reporting saying basically that the alleged comment was that, 102 00:08:54,840 --> 00:09:00,559 you know, the lieutenant governor that Professor Alonzo had said something the lieutenant 103 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:05,600 governor saying that, you know, kids deserve to die who die in opioid 104 00:09:05,639 --> 00:09:11,799 overdoses. The investigation into Alonzo, she was cleared. There's been a review 105 00:09:11,879 --> 00:09:16,159 now of the investigation after our reporting, and again she was cleared. There's 106 00:09:16,159 --> 00:09:20,799 no basis, there's no substantiation that she made a comment like that, but 107 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,399 it was concerning just coming off, you know, the revelations that we made 108 00:09:24,399 --> 00:09:28,000 in our story were concerning just on top of the previous story that Kate had 109 00:09:28,039 --> 00:09:33,039 also reported on Kathleen McElroy. And it's been I don't know, it's been 110 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,279 a full month of turmoil I think over there and difficult times, and I 111 00:09:37,279 --> 00:09:41,080 think difficult times still to continue because the faculty Senate is still looking into Joey 112 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:46,000 Alonzo's case and whether protocol and policies were followed about how to play someone an 113 00:09:45,919 --> 00:09:48,759 administrative leave. Yeah, I mean, Kate, it seems like the reaction 114 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:54,080 to both of those stories among faculty on UT has been a lot of concern 115 00:09:54,879 --> 00:09:58,360 about, you know, the political influence on who has hired at A and 116 00:09:58,519 --> 00:10:03,720 M, and what the people at M are allowed to say. Is interesting 117 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:11,120 to see the university come out yesterday and essentially apologize and acknowledge that they, 118 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:18,879 you know, the quote unquote mistakes were made statement related to Kathleen mceloy, 119 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,200 but be much more I think defensive and try to argue that they didn't do 120 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:31,879 anything wrong in the Alonso case. What's the distinction they're making there? I 121 00:10:31,879 --> 00:10:39,720 think that I mean the way that especially and you know today John Sharp put 122 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,799 out a an op ed in a couple of newspapers kind of also defending the 123 00:10:43,879 --> 00:10:52,159 way in which this was handled and really putting the the blame on this UTMB 124 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,279 censure email that was put out saying like, you know, when you get 125 00:10:56,399 --> 00:10:58,080 when you see an email like that, and when you get you know, 126 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:03,240 as he characterized, is it like a non threatening call from the Lieutenant governor. 127 00:11:03,799 --> 00:11:07,960 Of course you need to check out exactly you know, what went down 128 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:13,159 here. I think the concern from the faculty has been the speed in which 129 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:18,120 this all happened and the way in which it was a little bit as if 130 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:26,120 Alonso was really put on the defensive to prove her innocence rather than trying to 131 00:11:26,159 --> 00:11:30,840 confirm if there was any basis for the allegation to begin with. I think 132 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,320 the McElroy situation, you know, it could be a matter of there were 133 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:39,919 just very I mean that the text messages were so blatantly like clear that there 134 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:46,279 had been some and that banks had lied, and to the faculty Senate that 135 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:52,440 it was harder to a harder situation to potentially defend. But I think it's 136 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,840 a matter of perspective of where you maybe sit in the Alonso case and how 137 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:03,279 much you know, a phone call from the lieutenant governor might appear to be 138 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:09,720 m like influencing, influencing someone's decisions, and the kind of chilling effect that 139 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:13,519 you know, an innocuous call from the lieutenant governor to Sharp has much more 140 00:12:13,519 --> 00:12:18,159 meaning to a faculty member who is hearing that the lieutenant governor is concerned about 141 00:12:18,159 --> 00:12:22,080 what they're saying, Yeah, and I mean, this is this is their 142 00:12:22,159 --> 00:12:24,120 spin on it. Obviously they're saying, well, it's just just you know, 143 00:12:24,159 --> 00:12:26,399 we get these calls all the time. We had to check it out. 144 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,279 But I mean I trust our readers to to, you know, look 145 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,240 at the story and make sense of it and look at the timeline and just 146 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,440 figure out that their timeline does not make sense. They're trying to say that, 147 00:12:39,519 --> 00:12:41,759 you know, they did this because of the UTMB censor, But if 148 00:12:41,759 --> 00:12:46,480 you look at our original story, you know the Lieutenant Governor and his team 149 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,519 were talking to Chance or Sharp in the system like two hours after the lecture 150 00:12:50,519 --> 00:12:54,960 and two hours at least two hours before the UTMB sensor came out. Like 151 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,399 they are trying to spin it every which way they can to say, well, 152 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,639 what else did you want us to do? This was? This was 153 00:13:01,759 --> 00:13:05,159 you know, there's the UTMB is making a serious allegation. But if you 154 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,159 look at the timeline that we've clearly laid out, and then they repeated in 155 00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:15,480 their memos of the review that timeline that it doesn't add up. It doesn't 156 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,720 add up that the censor is what set this thing off, and it's it's 157 00:13:18,759 --> 00:13:22,440 clear that there was a chain of phone calls and text messages that began with 158 00:13:22,519 --> 00:13:28,200 Don Buckingham UM and that you know, maybe it was a minute phone long 159 00:13:28,279 --> 00:13:33,159 phone call with Dan Patrick UM, but that doesn't matter if my boss that 160 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:39,120 pays me my salary and funds my programs is calling me and complaining that somebody 161 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,720 is saying something mean about him. UM. And then and then you're in 162 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:48,200 the middle of negotiations and the legislature over how much money you're going to get 163 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:54,799 from that boss to fund your programs and like debating different legislation that you know 164 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,960 is going to have a direct impact on your faculty and how your universities work. 165 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,240 Right, and then you turn around, you turn around and and say, 166 00:14:01,279 --> 00:14:05,559 hey, let's look into this. Um. You know, I think 167 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:09,559 that's pretty clear, you know, political interference and they spend which whichever way 168 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:11,360 they want. But I think we should talk about what Kate is talking about, 169 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,200 which is that you know, sharp in the system are dealing with massive 170 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,200 amounts of pressure at that point in March when when when this all goes down, 171 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:24,159 there's the d EI push, there's tenure push, which they ultimately just 172 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:28,759 adopt what what A and M does. So we can talk about that. 173 00:14:28,799 --> 00:14:31,960 But I think like our readers are smart enough, and any reader really just 174 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,799 look at the story like they are going to try to spend it every which 175 00:14:35,799 --> 00:14:39,799 way they can. But the timeline is pretty clear. And you know, 176 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:43,480 I think the fact that the way the complaint went down, I mean, 177 00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:46,840 one of our issues as reporting this story is like we can even figure out 178 00:14:46,879 --> 00:14:48,759 what the complaint was or who made a complaint like there to our knowledge, 179 00:14:48,759 --> 00:14:52,519 there isn't like an official like paper complaint. Like what sets this thing off 180 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,200 is the Dan Patrick phone call to Sharpe, who then you know, now 181 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:01,039 he's talking about you know not then the staffer went to But there's a clear 182 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,200 connection here between Sharpe in that phone call and then Sharpe telling his team to 183 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,679 go to Banks and then Banks now is what they're saying. Then they start 184 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:15,080 the investigation like it's it's pretty clear here, and I don't I don't know 185 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:16,399 what kind of yarn they're trying to spin over there. Well. Also, 186 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,440 I mean in one more little connection there that you mentioned in your original story 187 00:15:20,559 --> 00:15:24,320 is the text message from Sharpe to Dan Patrick the you know, the day 188 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,480 of this, saying, essentially, the professor has been put on administrative leave 189 00:15:28,799 --> 00:15:33,279 pending her possible firing should be done at the end of the week. She 190 00:15:33,399 --> 00:15:37,080 was, of course not fired, and you have a and MS essentially saying 191 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,960 here, yeah, we looked into it. She didn't say anything bad, 192 00:15:41,399 --> 00:15:43,559 and she you know, was allowed to return to her job. There's nothing 193 00:15:43,559 --> 00:15:46,000 to see here, you know. One question that I would ask of them 194 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,399 is what if they had found that she had directly criticized Dan Patrick, what 195 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,879 do you do then? I mean, the fact that you're investigating would suggest 196 00:15:54,960 --> 00:16:00,840 that there's some reason to believe that, you know, there there is some 197 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:06,440 kind of possible fireable offense of saying something bad about the Lieutenant governor in a 198 00:16:06,519 --> 00:16:11,600 lecture, and that in and of itself raises questions of academic freedom and the 199 00:16:11,639 --> 00:16:15,559 ability to kind of speak your mind and give your opinion as a as a 200 00:16:15,639 --> 00:16:18,000 as a professor or someone who studies this issue well. And the fact that 201 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,840 the way they that the chance awarded that text message, like that last part 202 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,480 too, like about regarding firing her, Like why you know that it just 203 00:16:26,519 --> 00:16:30,360 seems to like just jump the gun all the way? You know, perhaps 204 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,200 they had you know that he says it's an innocuous short phone call, but 205 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,960 then we're talking about firing her in this text message. So was that something 206 00:16:37,039 --> 00:16:41,480 that that was implied in the phone call or why is he bringing it up 207 00:16:41,519 --> 00:16:44,919 like it does seem to like jump the gun. And if if I'm the 208 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,919 faculty, I would be very upset, and I understand why they are concerned. 209 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,440 I mean, it just seems to be jumping the gun. And I 210 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,639 don't I'm no HR expert, but it just seems to not the appropriate way 211 00:16:55,679 --> 00:16:57,639 to handle that or to message that, even even if the complaint was a 212 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:03,440 legitimate complaint, know, you want to have due process here, and if 213 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,359 you're already talking about firing her, you know, just bright does bring up 214 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,279 a lot of other questions. Yeah, And I think that's why the Faculty 215 00:17:10,279 --> 00:17:14,920 Senate has been so adamant that they want the school to spell out what exactly 216 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,920 the policy is around administrative leave, What would warrant putting someone on that on 217 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:26,480 administrative leave, and how do you ensure that that person received due process? 218 00:17:26,519 --> 00:17:30,359 Which I think, you know, the faculty Senate and from faculty we spoke 219 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,960 to. The concern was the perception from these text messages that she was guilty. 220 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:40,559 I needed to prove her innocence rather than the other way around, right, 221 00:17:40,799 --> 00:17:45,759 And I think there is a similar question of like specificity to be asked 222 00:17:45,759 --> 00:17:49,160 about the Machelroy case as well, because John Sharp comes out here and says, 223 00:17:49,319 --> 00:17:53,440 you know, mistakes were made, he apologizes to Macilroy. They're not 224 00:17:53,519 --> 00:18:00,440 being very specific about what those mistakes they think were actually made where there was 225 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,720 it a mistake in the vetting process? Was it a mistake in allowing you 226 00:18:03,759 --> 00:18:08,240 know, conservative forces that are to raise concerned about this and to influence the 227 00:18:08,279 --> 00:18:12,759 offer that was made. I think there are a lot of questions now about 228 00:18:12,839 --> 00:18:17,880 you know, hiring a journalist and professor, or you know, maybe even 229 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,960 a future history professor or a future you know, communication professor or any other 230 00:18:23,039 --> 00:18:27,279 kind of job. About what kind of scrutiny is this higher going to get? 231 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:33,960 Am I going to face heat from the university president or the regions for 232 00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:38,640 making this higher? Or even you know, if I'm a professor giving a 233 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,960 lecture? Am I going to be get paid on it? Put on paid 234 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:47,119 administrative leave? Is my job going to be at risk if the lieutenant governor 235 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,319 or someone else comes and complains about this. It's not just the outcome that 236 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,240 matters, it's the process that you went through, in the message that that 237 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:59,880 sends, in the possible chilling effect it might have the next time someone wants 238 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:04,440 to to share their professional opinion on something or make a hire of someone you 239 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:10,640 know from a background that certain people of political stripes might object to. Well, 240 00:19:10,799 --> 00:19:12,359 I think that's happening now right, I mean that that is the concern. 241 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,640 I mean, we've seen we've seen people talking about professors who now are 242 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:22,720 scared to, you know, talk about issues in which they have expertise. 243 00:19:22,759 --> 00:19:25,839 I mean, I saw a comment from someone, a fellow reporter, saying 244 00:19:25,839 --> 00:19:29,559 they try to interview someone over there about the topic of immigration, and that 245 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,039 professor said, you know, I think I'd rather not. I don't want 246 00:19:32,039 --> 00:19:33,799 to get in trouble. And that's what you don't want to see. That's 247 00:19:33,799 --> 00:19:38,759 the whole point of academic freedom. And listen, I mean, let's let's 248 00:19:38,839 --> 00:19:45,279 just say that perhaps Professor Alonso did say something objectionable, but it is clear 249 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:49,119 from the investigations that there is no substantiation that she said these things that she's 250 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:56,799 alleged to have said. But if she said something, you know, that 251 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:03,279 is opposite of Lieutenant in our Patrick's policies because of her expertise and in her 252 00:20:03,519 --> 00:20:12,519 expert opinion, that is harming the fight against opioid overdoses, should she not 253 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:17,920 be allowed to say that? Or in the case of Kathleen McElroy, whom 254 00:20:18,279 --> 00:20:26,000 you know, focuses on diversity initiatives in newsrooms and how to cover diverse communities, 255 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:32,200 perhaps some people in the legislature is clear they don't like that and they 256 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:33,839 don't like focusing on that, but should they be punished for that? Like 257 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,079 that is their expertise, and I think that is what we're talking about here. 258 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,279 That is the chilling effect that you're referring to, and we I think 259 00:20:41,279 --> 00:20:45,000 we're already seeing. All right, let's pause for a minute and hear from 260 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:51,000 our sponsors. Find affordable healthcare coverage through Texas Farm Bureau Health Plans. For 261 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:56,599 more information or to get a quote, go to www dot TFB health Plans 262 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:04,599 dot com or call eight seven seven five zero zero zero one four zero and 263 00:21:06,559 --> 00:21:11,319 at BNSF. Our commitment to community doesn't stop at the tracks. In twenty 264 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:18,519 twenty two, the BNSF Railway Foundation contributed one point nine million to support Texas 265 00:21:18,599 --> 00:21:22,880 communities BNSF dot com. Okay, Kate, I want to talk a little 266 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,200 bit more about the climate that this happened and because what we saw from these 267 00:21:27,279 --> 00:21:32,480 this reaction to Kathleen McElroy was a lot of conversation. You know, a 268 00:21:32,759 --> 00:21:37,079 m released text messages, but among regions, they released text messages and other 269 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,960 kind of messages and emails among top administrators some of whom Kathy Banks that the 270 00:21:42,319 --> 00:21:49,839 interim dean of Liberal Arts of Arts and Sciences, who have both resigned from 271 00:21:49,839 --> 00:21:56,279 those posts posts since then. But you saw in some of those conversations a 272 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,960 lot of concern, particularly around the idea of d EI right, and of 273 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:07,480 course, we had this legislative session in which the legislature passed a measure kind 274 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:14,119 of banning d EI practices d EI departments within universities, and there was some 275 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,640 kind of alarm being raised that you know, Kathleen McElroy had been asked or 276 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,279 had had spent some time, you know, on some committees doing some work 277 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:27,480 for the university around diversity initiatives. She was not hired to do that. 278 00:22:27,599 --> 00:22:34,359 She was hired to lead a journalism program. And she clearly has a lot 279 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:41,160 of you know, credible experience within journalism, working not just at The New 280 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,880 York Times, but at papers, you know, all across the country. 281 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,839 And it seemed to me that there was a fear that just her past association 282 00:22:52,279 --> 00:22:57,759 or advocacy for you know, supporting journalists of color or students of color was 283 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:04,759 viewed by some potentially disqualifying and you know, or a reason that this could 284 00:23:04,799 --> 00:23:10,240 create a problem you know, among you know, the politicians in this state 285 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,920 or the the you know, politically appointed board of regents in this state. 286 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:22,480 It seems to me like what we see here is some fear and concern going 287 00:23:22,599 --> 00:23:32,000 beyond, far beyond even what the official policy in laws of this state's say. 288 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,720 Yeah, I mean, I think that was some of the concern that 289 00:23:34,759 --> 00:23:40,839 we heard throughout you know, the legislative session when these bills around d EI 290 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:47,359 were being considered, that this was kind of creating like a scarlet letter of 291 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:52,880 sorts of people who were working in this um, in this area of d 292 00:23:52,960 --> 00:24:00,880 EI and has you know, which has now been oversimplified and mischaracterised as being 293 00:24:00,039 --> 00:24:07,839 kind of this area of proposed like pushing a certain ideology onto students rather than 294 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,319 maybe some of the work they're doing in other ways to you know, build 295 00:24:11,319 --> 00:24:17,599 a more diverse and you know, inclusive campus where student all students might be 296 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,559 able to be successful. You know. Obviously where you fall in the political 297 00:24:21,559 --> 00:24:26,559 spectrum kind of depends on how you view what DI is these days. But 298 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:32,039 I think, you know, the text messages among the regions made it very 299 00:24:32,039 --> 00:24:37,559 clear that many of them kind of saw the work that was being done either 300 00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:41,720 with the journalism program, and with kind of the changes that Banks was trying 301 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,759 to make an A and M overall as kind of a pushback to that and 302 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:51,119 kind of to create a climate within higher ed or within A and M that 303 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:56,880 was more accepting and open to like conservative voices on campus. You know, 304 00:24:56,519 --> 00:25:00,200 one of the regions mentioned that you know that they want on it that the 305 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,880 whole point of the journalism program was to bring these high quality aggie journalists with 306 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:11,480 conservative values into the market. And you know that even saying that some of 307 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,680 the changes to combine arts and sciences with um, you know, geosciences and 308 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:21,359 the other schools was to kind of tamp down on some of the liberal perspectives 309 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:26,319 that some of these other professors had at A and M. So I think 310 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,000 that is kind of the tension that we're we're kind of seeing right now, 311 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:37,200 is this push to kind of correct this perception of like a left leaning university 312 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:42,640 and higher education system. And this was kind of an attempt to redirect this 313 00:25:44,319 --> 00:25:48,200 and with you know, which is also you know, di has also been 314 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:55,359 included in that. Okay, James, let me play the kind of advocate 315 00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:00,200 for the other side on this topic. Right. It is not an unreasonable 316 00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:08,640 thing to say that universities in Texas and elsewhere are very liberal climates. Right, 317 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:15,880 Um, it's not unreasonable to say that faculties seem to be liberal leaning. 318 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,799 Obviously, you can't paint with a broad brush and say every single person. 319 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:26,000 But but I think it's fair to say that that that most university faculties, 320 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,119 at least in the flagship schools in Texas are are are likely more liberal 321 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,839 leaning, and that universities could benefit from more kind of diversity of thought and 322 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:40,079 perspectives, and that there is a concern among you know, conservative students and 323 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:48,319 even conservative president professors of being shouted down or you know, silenced, or 324 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,640 or having you know, certain views held against them, um, in higher 325 00:26:52,759 --> 00:27:00,440 education. So why is this not a defendable position for the Board of Regents 326 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,559 to be to be to be, you know, advocating for some of these 327 00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:07,920 things. Well, I think you're right. I mean, I think Academis 328 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,119 certainly would benefit from more conservative voices. Um. And that's I think that's 329 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,319 a pretty well documented thing that most most academics are probably more liberal leaning. 330 00:27:15,799 --> 00:27:18,519 UM. But the problem with that is, like, there's nothing wrong with 331 00:27:18,559 --> 00:27:22,000 what you just said, and there's nothing wrong with pursuing that goal. Um 332 00:27:22,599 --> 00:27:27,200 what what what is wrong here is that that's not what they did. They 333 00:27:27,319 --> 00:27:30,799 hired Kathleen McElroy, they offered her the position, they gave her a ten 334 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:38,759 year position, and then because there was uproar from conservatives who didn't like her 335 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,599 previous work, thought she was too liberal whatever the case may may be, 336 00:27:44,039 --> 00:27:48,799 thought she was a you know, and rightly thought that she was, you 337 00:27:48,839 --> 00:27:52,559 know, a person who was invested in diversity. They pulled the rogue out 338 00:27:52,599 --> 00:27:55,920 from under her. Like that is what happened. There's nothing wrong with the 339 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,279 you know, the pursuit that they were trying to do, except that they 340 00:27:59,319 --> 00:28:03,359 that's not what the person they hired was not that person. Um. So 341 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:11,240 then the problem comes when you get this uproar from outside forces, from small 342 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:18,039 but very loud voices. Um. And then you've got to and then you 343 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,319 basically rescind the contract. I think that's where the issue is, Like, 344 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,920 that's that's the problem, and the reasons for why they why they did those 345 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,000 things. So that is the issue. It's not so much the pursuit of 346 00:28:30,519 --> 00:28:33,839 you know, you know, getting more conservative voices and journalism like that's that's 347 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,920 fine. I think you know, but the issue is what happened with after 348 00:28:38,319 --> 00:28:42,359 after the uproar. Yeah, And I would also question whether regents and other 349 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:48,440 folks had enough information about Kathleen mackelrey to make the determination that she couldn't be 350 00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:55,440 supportive of a conservative young journalist, right, Like, could she not um, 351 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,000 you know, because of her background, because of her race. Is 352 00:29:00,039 --> 00:29:06,400 there anything to suggest that she couldn't be a great mentor to a journalist who 353 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,319 might be conservative wants to do that? I would argue no. I mean, 354 00:29:08,359 --> 00:29:14,079 basically what was being done to make the judgment on her was her resume 355 00:29:14,839 --> 00:29:18,359 and you know, one or two quotes she gave that were pretty vague, 356 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,480 quotes about you know, the idea of diversity and the idea of kind of 357 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,759 what perspectives get represented in journalism and things like that. Right, I mean, 358 00:29:26,839 --> 00:29:30,559 the people who opposed are prejudged her and said she can't do the job 359 00:29:30,759 --> 00:29:36,559 based on a little information and like a Google search literally, Right. But 360 00:29:36,599 --> 00:29:40,799 the issue is too like whatever, people are going to complain about everything, 361 00:29:40,799 --> 00:29:42,640 you know, when you're when you guys get to eventually get a new football 362 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,359 coach, you know, people are going to be mad about that football coach 363 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,400 or whatever right. But when people are always going to yell, it's the 364 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:56,160 system and the university's job to defend their position and to um to make sure 365 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,240 that you know the offer that they've made and they shake that they've done and 366 00:30:02,039 --> 00:30:04,519 that is intact, and that people feel like that will be intact and won't 367 00:30:04,519 --> 00:30:10,039 be affected by criticism. The issue is that the criticism led them to, 368 00:30:10,799 --> 00:30:14,559 you know, go back on their word and sully their handshake like that is 369 00:30:14,599 --> 00:30:18,480 the issue. And I would even say that that relates to the Alonso situation, 370 00:30:18,599 --> 00:30:22,640 like when you're running a university and with that claims to uphold academic freedom. 371 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,920 The whole point of academic freedom is that a professor is able to talk 372 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:33,000 about their research, their expertise, what they're learning in the field, policies 373 00:30:33,039 --> 00:30:37,319 that are happening at a state or federal level, with a freedom that they 374 00:30:37,319 --> 00:30:41,160 are not going to be that political leaders are not going to intervene in what 375 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:47,279 they are saying or researching. And a leader of a university or a system 376 00:30:47,279 --> 00:30:51,799 like John Sharp should know that and when he gets a call from Dan Patrick 377 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,640 be able to explain that, you know, yes you might not like what 378 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,880 she said, but she has a first Amendment right to say it and a 379 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:03,599 right to say it within academic freedom, which our university upholds, and in 380 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:08,200 some ways allowing this kind of investigation to happen also rescinded on the kind of 381 00:31:08,359 --> 00:31:14,079 handshake of academic freedom that this whole entire university system is working under. So 382 00:31:14,119 --> 00:31:17,440 I think they both kind of relate in the way in which they walked back 383 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,279 the promises that these schools are working under. And one more point to make 384 00:31:22,319 --> 00:31:26,599 off piggybacking of Kate's thought, there is that like and we covered this in 385 00:31:26,599 --> 00:31:32,599 the initial story on Alonzo, but the stakes are so much higher for professors 386 00:31:32,599 --> 00:31:38,640 who work in public health, like they are going to take positions inevitably that 387 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:45,200 will not be aligned with where Texas and that doesn't just it's not just Texas 388 00:31:45,319 --> 00:31:49,039 or where other states are. You know, other states also don't allow servingex 389 00:31:49,119 --> 00:31:53,720 change programs. Other states also don't allow fentonel test strips. They're criminalized. 390 00:31:55,279 --> 00:32:00,400 Their position is these tools actually help people not die of overdose and not die 391 00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:04,359 when using drugs, so that we can get them to help. And just 392 00:32:04,599 --> 00:32:08,079 one like you know, very good example, Joy Alonso is a leader in 393 00:32:08,079 --> 00:32:15,599 the state of providing the lock zone, narcan to communities, to police departments, 394 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,759 to schools training people on how to use narcan and the locksone. I've 395 00:32:20,799 --> 00:32:23,599 interviewed her before for a story about that. And because of her and people 396 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:29,799 like her, the state has finally budged and devoted eighteen million dollars to providing 397 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:34,440 the locks zone two communities that need it. And that is a position where 398 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,960 experts were saying the state is not right on this, the state needs to 399 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:42,359 provide these things. Joy Alonzo was one of those voices that led to the 400 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,319 change that happened this session. And this is a situation in which she's saying 401 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,839 something like, the policies are wrong, the policies are not helping us, 402 00:32:50,839 --> 00:32:55,079 the policies need to change. There are people who are opposing these policies. 403 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:00,079 And because she did that, she got in trouble. Like that is and 404 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:05,559 so there were real life consequences to this. Okay, what do you what 405 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,519 about the consequences to the university. How do you see this playing out? 406 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:14,519 What are you hearing from professors about? You know, is this going to 407 00:33:14,599 --> 00:33:17,839 have a long term impact on you know, not just academic freedom, but 408 00:33:17,839 --> 00:33:23,279 the reputation of the school, the ability to recruit faculty, the the things 409 00:33:23,279 --> 00:33:29,440 that you know, universities are are always kind of worried about. Yeah, 410 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:30,440 I mean, I think it's going to have a huge impact. Like, 411 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,480 you know, we heard a lot about these concerns in this legislative session when 412 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,359 d EI and tenure were on the chopping block, and m professors were kind 413 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:47,480 of making noise about the you know, ability to recruit and retain talented faculty 414 00:33:49,039 --> 00:33:52,400 who would want to stay here if they're you know, they weren't able to 415 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,079 get tenure or if they weren't able to um, you know, or if 416 00:33:57,119 --> 00:34:00,279 you know, diversity was not going to be a priority, and student as 417 00:34:00,319 --> 00:34:04,759 well. And I think that these two situations are kind of that concern come 418 00:34:04,839 --> 00:34:12,840 to life, you know, and in also kind of more less concrete ways 419 00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:17,119 that with the Alonso case in particular, you know, it creates this chilling 420 00:34:17,119 --> 00:34:21,280 effect that goes beyond you know, whether or not you can have tenure or 421 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,000 not. It's about your speech and what you say and how it's how it 422 00:34:24,079 --> 00:34:30,159 might be misconstrued and how you might be forced on the defensive to try and 423 00:34:30,559 --> 00:34:35,079 prove that a maybe you didn't say that at all, or that's not what 424 00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:39,800 you meant, And why would someone who is working in a different state where 425 00:34:40,079 --> 00:34:45,480 they have the backing of their university that supports academic freedom, why would they 426 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:50,639 come here or why would they stay if they could go somewhere else where they 427 00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:54,599 could feel more protected. You know, I think that the faculty in particular, 428 00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:58,519 and the reason the Faculty Senate has been so vocal, is that there 429 00:34:58,599 --> 00:35:02,280 is a real concern about the reputation hit that AM has taken, and there 430 00:35:02,519 --> 00:35:06,159 is you know, a lot of damage control to kind of do, to 431 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:12,119 prove to future aggies and future faculty who might want to come here that this 432 00:35:12,199 --> 00:35:16,000 is a place where, you know, the tenets of what American higher education 433 00:35:16,119 --> 00:35:21,679 is all about are still supported and can kind of thrive. And I'll add 434 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,320 one more thing, Matthew, because I know you guys are both higher ed 435 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:29,480 and former hired reporters, But we're talking about A and M here because both 436 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,519 of these stories happen at A and M. But the reality is that the 437 00:35:31,559 --> 00:35:37,440 issue is a broader issue. Two, Kate's point about every school in Texas, 438 00:35:37,559 --> 00:35:42,639 like because we you know, I've covered the harm reduction you know, 439 00:35:42,679 --> 00:35:46,840 harm reduction experts and the opioid epidemics in conversation with a lot of people who 440 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:52,079 deal in these spaces, and they've told us that there are other professors who 441 00:35:52,119 --> 00:35:55,559 are scared to talk about these policies because of this reaction and are trying to 442 00:35:55,599 --> 00:36:00,880 get advice on how they can discuss these policies without getting in trouble. So 443 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,599 we're talking about an M, but it just so happened to be at an 444 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,840 M. It could have been at ut It could have been at the university 445 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,159 in our Texas, could have been at UTEP, it could have been anywhere. 446 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,840 And that's the real issue. Are we creating this climate not just at 447 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:20,840 A and M, but in every Texas public university where if someone says something 448 00:36:22,039 --> 00:36:27,320 that is unflattering towards one of our top state officials, those state officials can 449 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,920 hop on the phone and call the university president or chancellor and launching investigation. 450 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:37,079 Well, and I mean UTNB is an example of that right that is part 451 00:36:37,119 --> 00:36:42,920 of the University of Texas system. And they censured Alonzo for something that she 452 00:36:43,039 --> 00:36:46,159 gave without really any indication that there is much of an investigation in terms of 453 00:36:46,159 --> 00:36:51,079 what was said, I think, and they did not repeat the claim. 454 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,559 Yet they also didn't didn't say what the claim was, were quiet about the 455 00:36:54,559 --> 00:37:00,320 whole situation, and even I mean the UT system as well. We know 456 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,719 that Kevin L Type, the chair of the UT board, also got a 457 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:07,679 call from Dan Patrick. So this was, yes, not just isolated to 458 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,000 A and M. But you know, also we're talking about the A and 459 00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:14,840 M Board of Regents. They oversee eleven universities public universities in this state, 460 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,440 and so I think professors at all of those universities are reading these text messages 461 00:37:20,039 --> 00:37:25,960 and getting the message of the kind of you know, positions that the people 462 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:32,440 who essentially you know, control their university are taking as well. James, 463 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,519 are you surprised that this has prompted such a reaction. I mean, when 464 00:37:37,639 --> 00:37:40,079 when we these stories were in the works and we knew they were coming, 465 00:37:40,119 --> 00:37:45,880 I don't think I ever imagined that it would result in the resignation, you 466 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:51,079 know, perhaps under pressure of the A and M university president, that there 467 00:37:51,079 --> 00:37:55,360 would be these you know, big document dumps and investigations by the A and 468 00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:00,400 M system. I mean Dan Patrick felt then to respond to this. He 469 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:05,440 wrote an op ed in the Houston Chronicle sort of defending his decision. In 470 00:38:05,559 --> 00:38:10,079 this Don Buckingham you know, has has had you know, felt the need 471 00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:14,800 to speak out to this. It does feel like this has resonated in a 472 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,519 way. I wonder what the impact of that will be and if there might 473 00:38:17,559 --> 00:38:22,320 be some more hesitation on on the other side of this to push some of 474 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:27,280 these things. I don't know. I don't know. I didn't have anything 475 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,800 to do with Kathleen McElroy, so I so that's all Kate, and I 476 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:35,079 don't know she expected all that has happened. But obviously it was a very 477 00:38:35,119 --> 00:38:42,360 big story UM about outside influences in the university. I think with the reaction 478 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,840 that the Joy Alonzo story has gotten, UM, you know, Dan Patrick 479 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:50,920 and Don Buckingham's have sort of extended the you know, the legs of the 480 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,400 story by responding. And am I surprised. I think so, because we 481 00:38:55,559 --> 00:39:00,840 gave them, I mean, we gave them weeks noticed we were working on 482 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:05,280 this, to be upfront with us and send us a statement tell things. 483 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,119 From their perspective, they could have done that and they chose not to. 484 00:39:07,679 --> 00:39:13,159 UM. Once the story hit, I think it speaks to how much it's 485 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:19,679 resonnated and how I mean, how bad everyone looks here except Professor Alonzo honestly 486 00:39:20,119 --> 00:39:22,400 that you know, Chancellor Sharp doesn't look well. He looks like he's sort 487 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:27,400 of rolled over to this political interference from Dan Patrick. Don Buckingham doesn't look 488 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:31,199 well. Lieutenant Governor Patrick doesn't look well. I mean, everyone just looks 489 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,480 looks bad. I mean it could have just ended. It could have just 490 00:39:34,519 --> 00:39:37,360 said I didn't like that comment, and chance Sharp could have said, hey, 491 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,880 you know too bad, like that's you know, that's how these things 492 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:44,639 go. But it didn't. That it's snowballed, and so I do think 493 00:39:44,639 --> 00:39:50,079 that it's resonnated with the public, and even even an average person understands. 494 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,039 Maybe they're not talking about it in an academic freedom terms quote unquote, but 495 00:39:53,079 --> 00:39:58,719 they understand that a professor should be able to say things in a lecture that 496 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:04,320 may be controversial but that they have expert authority on. And so I think 497 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,199 that that's why it's resignated. But I have been surprised at, you know, 498 00:40:08,119 --> 00:40:14,239 Lieutenant Governor Patrick and Land Commissioner Buckingham, how much they've commented on it 499 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,239 afterwards. And I think it also speaks to maybe there's some pressure on them. 500 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,000 I did see some comments from people saying, you know, I voted 501 00:40:21,039 --> 00:40:23,320 for I voted for you guys. I'm a Republican, but I don't like 502 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:28,000 this, and so I think they are geting pressure even from Republican voters. 503 00:40:28,599 --> 00:40:35,079 All right, I had that on the McElroy story. I think I was 504 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:39,159 did not expect a resignation to come out of this. But I think you 505 00:40:39,199 --> 00:40:45,199 know, the statement and not to place all of it on this the decision 506 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:49,559 of the heart Plant and the Department chair to release that statement after the fact 507 00:40:50,559 --> 00:40:53,760 saying, you know, basically accusing Banks of lying to the faculty Senate. 508 00:40:54,199 --> 00:41:00,360 I think that and the documents that he you know, apparently handed over to 509 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:04,440 the Office of General Counsel. I think that changed the game a little bit. 510 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,719 That there were documents out there that were clearly countering U the claim she 511 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:14,639 had made publicly was a factor in that, I would all, yes, 512 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:19,440 correct. So I think that statement really escalated things. And you know, 513 00:41:19,559 --> 00:41:23,719 someone like which goes back to you know something that sharp h Sorry didn't mean 514 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:30,599 to call you sharp, James. Something changed about you know, the high 515 00:41:30,639 --> 00:41:35,239 stakes. You know, Alonso did not have tenure, and that was one 516 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,400 of the kind of characterists or issues with that about how easily it could have 517 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:43,800 been to terminate her um. Someone like Hart Blanton does have tenure and does 518 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,119 have those protections to be able to speak up and say something, and I 519 00:41:47,159 --> 00:41:52,039 think that might have not been, you know, the final straw, but 520 00:41:52,079 --> 00:41:58,039 it did make a difference in terms of how the university started and the Office 521 00:41:58,039 --> 00:42:01,440 of General Counsel started to respond to you know, how that situation was unfolding. 522 00:42:02,159 --> 00:42:05,880 All right, Well, Kate, you've done some fantastic reporting on this, 523 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,039 as have you James. Thank you both for that reporting and thank you 524 00:42:08,079 --> 00:42:13,079 for joining us on this. Thank you also to our producer Todd, and 525 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:17,480 thank you to our sponsors Texas Association of Community Colleges, Texas BioMed, the 526 00:42:17,599 --> 00:42:24,639 Texas Farm Bureau and bat NSF Railway. We'll talk to you next week.