1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:50,280 crime, Bill Thomas. You're listening to the mind Over Murder podcast. Hi, 10 00:00:50,439 --> 00:00:54,840 welcome back to part two of our discussion of the Summrton Man case with 11 00:00:55,039 --> 00:01:02,679 investigative genetic genealogist and pioneer Colleen Fitzpat. As we continue the discussion, Colleen 12 00:01:02,799 --> 00:01:08,879 is walking us through how the investigative team used genetic genealogy, specifically the jet 13 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:15,480 Match and family Tree DNA databases in order to figure out who Somerton Man might 14 00:01:15,519 --> 00:01:21,120 be. One of the challenges is that these databases at this point are very 15 00:01:21,599 --> 00:01:26,319 US centric and this is a case from Australia. We pick up the conversation 16 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:32,120 as she walks us through that process. We hope you enjoyed this episode of 17 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:37,359 Mind over Murder and thanks as always. We're joined today by Colleen Fitzpatrick, 18 00:01:37,439 --> 00:01:42,359 a pioneer in the field of forensic genetic genealogy and rocket scientists, one of 19 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,200 our favorite people to talk to. Colleen, Welcome back to the podcast. 20 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:52,040 Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. The whole forensic genealogy thing 21 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:57,400 is an American phenomenon, and a databases are full of American genealogists. So 22 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:04,280 normally you do okay outside of say US and even Canada, and you run 23 00:02:04,319 --> 00:02:08,120 into low matches. You run into you would see normally, you'd think the 24 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:15,120 matches anybody on the list are going to be distant matches. Because he's dead 25 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:20,360 in nineteen forty eight. Maybe he connects to Americans through the UK before they 26 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,159 came to the United States or to Australia. You can really understand a very 27 00:02:24,159 --> 00:02:30,319 deep connection. But recent who knows. We got lucky. We got lucky 28 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:35,400 because the top match was a young man who was like on his second cousin 29 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,879 levels. The rest of them, the rest of them were really low, 30 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:42,199 and they did connect in the UK. There were a lot of Americans that 31 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,639 connected to whoever he was a long time ago. This man, his name 32 00:02:46,719 --> 00:02:52,120 was Jack. He was maybe thirty years old, and he didn't know who 33 00:02:52,199 --> 00:02:55,800 his father was, and the connection was through his father's line to the Somerton 34 00:02:55,879 --> 00:03:00,879 man. Of course, I spent a weekend and then I wrote him. 35 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,639 I said, we're doing this John Doe case. I really can't talk a 36 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,960 lot about it. You turned out that if you shared your DNA with us, 37 00:03:09,159 --> 00:03:14,000 or you shared your story, or you shared your ancestry account, whatever, 38 00:03:14,159 --> 00:03:16,240 it would be very helpful to us to find out who this man is. 39 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:21,479 And we didn't say anything else about it. And because I was American, 40 00:03:21,719 --> 00:03:27,039 they didn't really suspect that this was an Australian case. Very clever. 41 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,680 See how clever we are now. The aunt, the guy's aunt, was 42 00:03:30,719 --> 00:03:36,319 in correspondence with us, and she had his two aunts, his great aunts. 43 00:03:36,719 --> 00:03:40,199 His mom eventually tested so I did an adoption search. I found out 44 00:03:40,199 --> 00:03:45,439 who his father was, and they were all over the moon, very happy. 45 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,919 I'm sorry, Colleen, you've referenced an adoption search twice. Can you 46 00:03:50,039 --> 00:03:55,479 explain for our listeners what an adoption search entails. A lot of people take 47 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:01,400 these tests, these ancestry tests so to speak, because they're adopted and they 48 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:05,479 would like to find their parents. And when you take the ancestry test, 49 00:04:05,719 --> 00:04:11,319 I use that as an example because it's very popular. You get the answer 50 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,520 as you get. The results are a list of we call him DNA cousins 51 00:04:15,639 --> 00:04:19,240 or matches that match you because they share certain amounts of DNA with you. 52 00:04:19,639 --> 00:04:24,759 And if you stumble on somebody who shares half of your DNA with you, 53 00:04:25,439 --> 00:04:30,120 then it has to be your parents, your sibling, or your child. 54 00:04:30,959 --> 00:04:33,279 If it's less than that, you could be a first cousin, second cousin, 55 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:40,879 whatever. So the adoptees take these tests because there's over fifty fifty chance 56 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,480 that if you do, you're going to find out who your parents are or 57 00:04:44,519 --> 00:04:47,000 you're going to find your biological family. So this man, this young man, 58 00:04:47,199 --> 00:04:51,639 Jack was after that he knew his mom that he didn't know his dad, 59 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:57,399 so when his matches came in, naturally he could eliminate the mom because 60 00:04:57,399 --> 00:05:00,560 he knew who they were and they were aunts and great aunts is he knew 61 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,600 all of those and the ones left over belonged to his dad, and we 62 00:05:03,639 --> 00:05:09,680 could use those to It's like a Sudoku puzzle where you take these relatives, 63 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,240 you move them around in the right way, and they all have to connect 64 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,639 with each other. Finally you get it all self consistent in the missing pieces, 65 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:23,319 you're mister X. So that's what Jack had taken the ancestry test, 66 00:05:23,399 --> 00:05:28,040 and he had uploaded to jed match hoping to find out his aunt had actually 67 00:05:28,079 --> 00:05:30,560 put him up to it, hoping to find out who his father was. 68 00:05:31,439 --> 00:05:34,079 So we stumbled on, we don't know who his father is, but we're 69 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,360 sure we'd like to find out. Jack wants to find his father. We 70 00:05:38,399 --> 00:05:41,800 assured him want to find his father too. There's a reason. So I 71 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:46,240 went into Jack's matches. He let me have the aunt, let me look 72 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,000 at his account and see his matches on ancestry, on jed match, all 73 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,680 of that, and I figured out who his father was. And I turned 74 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,120 that over to Jack and his family and they were very happy about that, 75 00:05:57,399 --> 00:06:01,680 and so they continued to allow us to work it out with them, continue 76 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,519 to see his matches. We got past that. Now we had to build 77 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:09,680 his tree. They were very happy to see his dad's pedigree as well, 78 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,600 because now Jack knows who he is. So this has benefit for both parties, 79 00:06:14,319 --> 00:06:16,959 you and your search and Jack and his family in theirs. And that's 80 00:06:16,959 --> 00:06:24,439 not uncommon because there's a lot of adoptees in the databases and it's not uncommon. 81 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,199 Like I think the next one on our list, which was more distant, 82 00:06:28,439 --> 00:06:30,720 was an American who didn't know who his father was. I think out 83 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,439 of the top several matches, we had two or three adoptees looking for their 84 00:06:34,439 --> 00:06:39,920 birth parents, and it just so happens Jack was within reach. Now the 85 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:46,959 story shifts from Justin to Robin to Rachel roma Derek, and now it shifts 86 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,800 to Jack. Who is Jack? And who is Jack's father? And how 87 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:55,600 is he related to the Summerton man. We built out a nice tree and 88 00:06:55,759 --> 00:07:00,360 I'm tooling along. I get Jack's grandfather, great grandfather. It's out there 89 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:05,199 that aunt has helping a little bit, and you won't believe what happened next. 90 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:13,920 Tune in next time for our next episode in Frida. This episode, 91 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:19,839 Jack is the great grandson of somebody. Guess what his name is? McMahon, 92 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:26,480 Yes, no, Smith, I give up Thomas Keene. Oh the 93 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,879 name inside the clothes, said the cloth. Yeah, okay, and wow, 94 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,720 And Derek saying, oh, that's a coincidence. Come on, no 95 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:41,079 way, there are no no way it is now. I'm with Questin on 96 00:07:41,199 --> 00:07:46,160 this one. There are no coincidences. And he says that Thomas Keane. 97 00:07:46,199 --> 00:07:50,920 We do newspaper searches, were looking all these people and Thomas Keene was commonly 98 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,800 known as Gerald. Derek thinks, okay, he's Gerald. He's not. 99 00:07:56,079 --> 00:07:59,360 I said, who cared? He says. Derek says, my first name 100 00:07:59,439 --> 00:08:03,199 isn't Darre. I go by Derek. I write Derek. So why would 101 00:08:03,439 --> 00:08:05,759 I said, Look, there's seven billion people on Earth. Why would all 102 00:08:05,839 --> 00:08:13,519 the six point nine other people, million people, billion people follow the same 103 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,800 rules of naming themselves as you do. There's no reason. This is not 104 00:08:16,879 --> 00:08:20,759 an engineering project here, Okay, I didn't. Anyway, we had a 105 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:26,600 small discussion about that. We looked all over the old newspapers in Australia and 106 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,879 we found out Thomas Keane died. There's a notice of his funeral, there's 107 00:08:30,879 --> 00:08:35,240 a notice of the family. And as so he's not Thomas Keane because we 108 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,639 know where Thomas Keane is buried, so this requires more research into the family 109 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:43,840 to find somebody. We don't know what happened to him. There's no date 110 00:08:43,879 --> 00:08:50,840 of death. He evaporates in history and we find his brother in law, 111 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:58,120 Carl Webb, who is the brother of Thomas's wife. Thomas marries Freedom Webb 112 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,799 and her brother is Carl Webb, and Carl Webb does not have a date 113 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:07,279 of death, and Carl Webb is about the right age. Everything looks out 114 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,879 he's in Melbourne, and so Jack is a Webb. He goes through Carl's 115 00:09:11,919 --> 00:09:16,799 father. He's related to Frida and they it's like the father's side of Carl's 116 00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:20,600 family. And to do it right, we need to have the mother's side 117 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,320 a match on the mother's side. We just can't say it's Carl, because 118 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,519 who knows. We need mom and dad's side, a match to mom and 119 00:09:26,639 --> 00:09:31,519 dad's side. It takes a while to find one, because these people are 120 00:09:31,639 --> 00:09:35,639 dead, they're gone, they're born in the nineteen hundreds. We find that 121 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:41,279 his mother, Eliza, her name was I think her Eliza Grace, and 122 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:46,559 we start studying the Grace family to see if Liza had a sister that could 123 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,279 come down through Carl's mother's family. We do all out a sister or brother, 124 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,159 whatever. And in the middle of all this, somebody rises and says, 125 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,600 our research alies a lot. And by the way, she's not a 126 00:09:56,639 --> 00:10:03,240 Grace. She was actually adopted. She was This gets work. Actually her 127 00:10:03,279 --> 00:10:07,000 mother is her mother. I think her mother's name is Amelia. But her 128 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,639 father died before she was born. Her father she was probably three or four 129 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:16,399 months along, and then the father died and the mother remarried really quickly to 130 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,360 somebody named Grace, and she went by the name Grace. But she's really 131 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:22,200 a Steven's good thing. Good thing. We found her out, so we 132 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,279 take it. It takes anyway, the end of it. It takes a 133 00:10:26,279 --> 00:10:31,080 few weeks to find a connection to mom's side Carl's and we have him tested 134 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,399 and that takes through ancestry. It takes six to eight weeks to get the 135 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:41,000 results. So we're sitting there twiddling our thumbs trying to find other family members. 136 00:10:41,039 --> 00:10:43,679 And the family is very mom's side is very dilute. They've gone to 137 00:10:43,799 --> 00:10:48,559 different places. They've had a divorce where half the family wasn't talking to the 138 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,799 other half, and all the family pictures went with the other half, and 139 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,279 they were lost and nobody talks to each other anymore. So it took a 140 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:01,639 while and we finally found a connection to mom's side, had tested on ancestry, 141 00:11:01,639 --> 00:11:03,759 and then sixty eight weeks later, bingo, there it is. He's 142 00:11:03,799 --> 00:11:09,759 exactly he connects to Carl's mom. Okay, so we've identified We really have 143 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,879 identified Carl. He has no date of death. He's from the right play. 144 00:11:13,919 --> 00:11:18,799 All right, May I continue with the next however, yes, number 145 00:11:18,799 --> 00:11:22,679 four. Now we got to find out who Carl is and why he's dead 146 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:28,120 on the beach. Carl was married to a lady named Dorothy. They married 147 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:35,480 in nineteen forty one. They separated in forty seven. Dorothy left I think 148 00:11:35,519 --> 00:11:41,759 in Carl left their residence in South Yarra around the Melbourne area. He leaves 149 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:48,120 in I think April forty seven, and she leaves in September forty seven. 150 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,600 So they leave, they separate, and they finally move away. Now Carl 151 00:11:52,039 --> 00:11:56,000 dies on the beach. We now know it's Carl on the beach. What 152 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:01,240 happens to Dorothy divorces Carl in nineteen fifty one, she starts a divorce decree. 153 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:07,080 It's finalizing fifty two, almost exactly five years after he left, which 154 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,559 is some kind of law you have to wait five years and get a divorce. 155 00:12:11,279 --> 00:12:16,720 She divorces him because of abandonment. She doesn't hasn't heard from him. 156 00:12:16,799 --> 00:12:22,159 He abandoned her, and she puts the notices in the newspaper. Carl Webb, 157 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,240 if you don't come to the court and so we're gonna, I'm gonna 158 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,519 divorce your button, You're gonna have to pay all these fines. He might 159 00:12:28,519 --> 00:12:31,679 as well come down and show your faith something like that. If you read 160 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:37,679 a divorce decree she's She outlines that Carl is a very moody He has severe 161 00:12:37,759 --> 00:12:43,720 mood swings. He can be very charming at times, but he's very depressed. 162 00:12:43,759 --> 00:12:48,000 You go to bed at seven o'clock at night, not come out. 163 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,360 He's gambler and that then we find ads he's placed in the paper selling his 164 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:58,759 fancy car, his fancy tennis racket, his fancy other things. So he's 165 00:12:58,759 --> 00:13:05,279 not a good gambler. Heat Yeah, he asks for all her money when 166 00:13:05,279 --> 00:13:09,279 she earns it, it's she yells at her, and there's several calls for 167 00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:15,720 domestic abuse over time. But she also says that he writes poetry about death 168 00:13:15,919 --> 00:13:20,759 and that his fondest desire is to be dead. Interesting. Oh my god. 169 00:13:20,879 --> 00:13:24,919 She comes home one day and she finds the house smells like ether. 170 00:13:24,159 --> 00:13:28,360 In fact, the neighbors are complaining it smells like ether. She finds him 171 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:35,679 soaking wet in bed and he has swallowed fifty feet of arbital tablets. Oh 172 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,320 my gosh, how did he not die? So she gets him, uh, 173 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,240 and she saves him somehow, and he's screaming at her. If you 174 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,679 save me and I get better, I'm going to kill you. When it's 175 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,360 just her father comes to rescue her in the middle of the night. One 176 00:13:50,399 --> 00:13:52,639 time. One time she stays in a hotel, comes back. She's locked 177 00:13:52,639 --> 00:13:56,799 out. She uses a match to see to try and get in the house, 178 00:13:58,039 --> 00:14:01,320 and he says she's burning down the house. She locks herself in a 179 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,919 room. It's very kind of bad scene there. So you read to all 180 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,879 this what's interesting and what Dorothy does for a living? It's a talk. 181 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:15,480 She says, I am Dorothy, and she introduces herself, identifies herself, 182 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,879 and you know what she does for a living? Can you guess guessing? 183 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:26,559 Not a ballet dancer, No, a nurse. All he's a pharmacist. 184 00:14:26,799 --> 00:14:31,080 She's a pharmacist. So interesting though, Oh I guess that would explain where 185 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,639 he got all the funeral barbatal from. That could be so. Not only 186 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,519 that in nineteen fifty one, when she writes this and files it, she 187 00:14:39,559 --> 00:14:45,639 lives She didn't live in Melbourne. She lives in South Australia. She lives 188 00:14:45,679 --> 00:14:50,799 in a town called boot Bute, and it's on the rail line between Melbourne 189 00:14:50,039 --> 00:14:54,039 and Perth. So you go through Adelaide, then you go through boot and 190 00:14:54,039 --> 00:14:58,279 then you wind up later on in Perth. So now you have to ask 191 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:03,759 yourself exactly now you don't know, dude, you don't know. Was it 192 00:15:03,919 --> 00:15:07,159 murder or was it suicide? Was assisted suicide? Was it? How do 193 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,879 you go about this? Now? The mystery is not Carl, it's Dorothy. 194 00:15:11,919 --> 00:15:16,320 What happened to Dorothy? We can't find Dorothy. And it's seventy years 195 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:20,639 later we don't know. We've been looking for Dorothy. She has a nephew 196 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,360 who was alive, who didn't really know her. She had a sister, 197 00:15:24,519 --> 00:15:30,879 Phillis, and Phillis their father, mister Robertson died and I don't know, 198 00:15:31,039 --> 00:15:35,399 eighties nineties. He left all the money to Phillis. The obituary mentions both 199 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,720 daughters, but he just left everything to Phillis and the nephew. Phillis's son 200 00:15:39,759 --> 00:15:45,519 said he never really knew Dorothy, but that she died. He remembered vaguely 201 00:15:45,559 --> 00:15:48,120 she died in the nineteen nineties in New South Wales, and she lived in 202 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:54,600 a colony of people. I don't know LGBTQ people or hippies or something. 203 00:15:54,679 --> 00:15:58,559 We can't find Dorothy. He vaguely remembered a couple of names floating through the 204 00:15:58,559 --> 00:16:03,120 whole door that may have known Dorothy. But we don't know what happened to 205 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,519 Dorothy. We can't find her, and we don't know if she just divorced 206 00:16:06,559 --> 00:16:10,919 Carl and went on with life, or whether she divorced Carl and kept getting 207 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,759 married in Black widow or whatever. I don't want to accuse her or anything 208 00:16:14,759 --> 00:16:18,960 about knowing who she was, But Dorothy has vanished. We're trying to find 209 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:26,200 out what happened and Dorothy interesting. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll 210 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:40,360 be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at Mind 211 00:16:40,399 --> 00:16:45,200 over Murder. So now what comes next? You've identified? I guess it's 212 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,000 not fair to call him Somerton Man anymore, because now we know his name. 213 00:16:48,159 --> 00:16:53,399 You've identified Charles Webb. What happens next, There's a couple of things. 214 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:59,039 First, to South Australian Police are confirming they have there that we gave 215 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,519 them the data and they have the exhumed remains to work with, and so 216 00:17:03,559 --> 00:17:07,759 they're working with us to confirm where. Also, we asked, I hope 217 00:17:07,759 --> 00:17:12,799 they do toxicology tests on the body. It turns out organics like orbituous disappeared 218 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:17,640 really quickly in the body. So after seventy five years, you ain't gonna 219 00:17:17,759 --> 00:17:22,960 really see any any of the organic poisonings. Heavy metals might be around, 220 00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:26,279 not to organics, they're gone. How much of the body would be left 221 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:32,559 after seventy five years, Yeah, in your opinion understanding, it was just 222 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,920 there wasn't a whole lot of soft tissue left that you can find bones at 223 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,720 one hundreds of years old. That's not right, that's not a problem. 224 00:17:40,799 --> 00:17:44,480 That's the hard part of our body, not the soft part. And this 225 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,799 unlike situations where Kristen and I have been talking with people about murder victims or 226 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,839 missing persons that have been out in the environment, he was actually buried in 227 00:17:52,920 --> 00:18:00,240 a traditional cemetery and then the body and the casket were then exhumed. You 228 00:18:00,279 --> 00:18:07,480 are working with the law enforcement agencies in Australia to assist in this confirmation of 229 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:14,319 the identification that you've created. Yeah, Derek's in touch with them all the 230 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,880 time. In the meantime, we're researching if we can find Dorothy. One 231 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,000 thing that has come up is that Derek has a group of I call him 232 00:18:22,039 --> 00:18:29,359 minions, people of who are really very good researchers and discovered about the Keene 233 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:34,039 family that Thomas Keene and Derek would have more information. But Thomas Keene was 234 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:41,519 like a construction person for the theater and he would help. He even traveled 235 00:18:41,559 --> 00:18:47,440 with the Russian Ballet for a while internal Australia, so he probably was in 236 00:18:47,599 --> 00:18:52,400 contact with a lot of Americans. His son, John Keene was killed in 237 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:56,640 World War Two, like forty two forty three, so that the stuff in 238 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,960 the suitcase the laundry bag could have said Jay not Tee. It could have 239 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:07,279 been because apparently when his belongings were returned to the Keene family, had a 240 00:19:07,319 --> 00:19:11,559 lot of American stuff in it. Although mister Keane himself was Australian am I 241 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:17,880 correct, yeah, and his son was killed while serving with the Australian Armed 242 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,599 Forces in World War Two, so it could have been his son's hand me 243 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,599 down said they gave to Carl. I believe, my guest is that just 244 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:32,559 to tie up the loose ends, is that Carl may have met Justin at 245 00:19:32,599 --> 00:19:37,599 one point. He may have known her. And I think Carl they had 246 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,400 thought that whoever the man was, had come in from Melbourne on the night 247 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,279 train. Over night train, it's like a d eight to twelve hour train 248 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,799 ride, and he got off he was going to spend the day catch the 249 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:53,039 train. I think he was going after Dorothy and he was going to go 250 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:59,200 and try and find her somewhere in South Australia, either in Adelaida boot And 251 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,039 he had to day in the city and he went to the beach and he 252 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,559 knew Justin. Maybe he looked her up and he knew her from somewhere. 253 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,640 It wasn't a love affair anything, He just knew her and it was to 254 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:14,359 kill time, my guests, and he was on his way to find Dorothy 255 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,440 somewhere. Oh and in the meantime, after he left their home in Melbourne, 256 00:20:18,519 --> 00:20:22,440 in April or forty seven. I think he may have gone to live 257 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,319 with the Kings for a while. He may have gone to stay with his 258 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:30,240 sister who was maybe twenty minutes half an hour away. So he may have 259 00:20:30,319 --> 00:20:33,680 gone to stay with them because he was broke. He was broke, He 260 00:20:33,759 --> 00:20:37,400 was a gambler and he was broke, and he may have stayed with them 261 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:41,599 and either they asked him to leave or he decided to leave and go after 262 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,599 Dorothy. And he may have gotten some of the son's hand me downs, 263 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,799 like the tie and the clothing bag, a few things that he happened maybe 264 00:20:48,839 --> 00:20:52,359 just to pick up around the house. I think that's what happened. And 265 00:20:52,519 --> 00:20:59,160 the sheet of paper with the codes on it, yeah, they think might 266 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:04,200 have been related to he gambling habits. Yeah. Derek and his student engineering 267 00:21:04,279 --> 00:21:10,680 students have actually won awards for not breaking the code because they tried all kinds 268 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:15,240 of codes and it didn't work. So the end is that the best fit 269 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,880 that they found was the first letters of I have to go to the store, 270 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:25,319 or a series a phrase or as a reminder. And we think even 271 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,519 it's been brought up that could have been the names of horses at various races 272 00:21:29,839 --> 00:21:33,240 or some kind of ga or some kind of gambling mnemonic for him to remember 273 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:38,640 what to do at certain times. Very interesting while he was losing his fortune 274 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:47,200 at yeah, various racetracks or whatever. There's stories Dorothy tells stories about a 275 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,400 card game and he lost in the card game, and he got up and 276 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,079 he took a knife and he was threatening to win it with a knife. 277 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,559 Wow. Not the most stable guy in the world, you wouldn't think. 278 00:21:56,599 --> 00:22:02,160 So it is the idea that he would be looking for Dorothy. Do you 279 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:07,519 have anything to base that on or is that just more kind of logic combined 280 00:22:07,559 --> 00:22:11,079 with a bit of a romantic notion what you're thinking there? I think it's 281 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:15,160 just logic. Because she was living. She left, we don't know where 282 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,079 she went. And the man has always been thought to have come in on 283 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,640 the overnight train for Melbourne. And why would he leave Melbourne. He had 284 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:29,039 no relatives, he had no connections anywhere else. He was an instrument maker, 285 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,799 he was a gambler. And a person like that gets local work. 286 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,000 He may have gotten, say a job, who's going somewhere else for a 287 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,119 job, But in those days, why would you need to do that? 288 00:22:40,519 --> 00:22:45,079 His family, he's getting separated from his wife. He has family in the 289 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,160 area of Melbourne. I think he was going after her because we do know 290 00:22:48,319 --> 00:22:53,400 at some point in fifty two fifty one she was living in South Australia along 291 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,799 the rail line, so that's a strong possibility. But it's just a very 292 00:22:57,839 --> 00:23:02,440 small train style. At the time, it wasn't. It was a small 293 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,880 town that grew around the train stop. Now it's just as it. We 294 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,480 consulted with the boot hisstorical society and all that, and they don't have any 295 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:17,160 reference to Dorothy Webb, but Dorothy Robertson, No Dorothy's It's got to feel 296 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:22,279 extremely good to put the missing pieces of a puzzle into place like this. 297 00:23:22,519 --> 00:23:26,319 If you could come up with one adjective to describe it, what would you 298 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,799 say that the feeling is? After that? How? Maybe? While would 299 00:23:29,799 --> 00:23:34,079 be closed? It's interesting. I liked the story, liked where how what 300 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,960 happened to Dorothy? That's the next chapter? Happen Dorothy? And do you 301 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,119 think you'll be able to figure that out? No idea. We're looking, 302 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,680 we're getting in the old Dorothy garden, looking for the roots and the berries 303 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,039 and the seeds. But I guess death indexes or the newspapers haven't really revealed 304 00:23:53,079 --> 00:23:56,799 anything. She just died. They didn't put a no bit or anything. 305 00:23:56,839 --> 00:24:00,559 She didn't have really anybody, so you know she was broke too, because 306 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,799 the sister gave a bunch some money for the funeral. And one of the 307 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:11,000 questions was always was he a dancer because of these very powerful legs that he 308 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,920 had, And from the research that Kristen and I were doing to prepare for 309 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:21,240 this conversation, it sounds like the thinking now is that him standing up in 310 00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:26,799 machine shops and using tools and that sort of thing would have resulted in these 311 00:24:26,839 --> 00:24:30,519 sort of powerful, stocky legs that were one of his physical features. I 312 00:24:30,559 --> 00:24:34,240 think though, he was also somewhat of an athlete, because when you see 313 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,359 what he's selling off, one of them is a very expensive tennis racket one 314 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,119 item. I think there may have been a couple of other things, but 315 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,960 the tennis racket tells you he's into tennis. So there's so many really interesting 316 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:52,000 theories about this. There's the Russian spy theory, the jilted lover theory, 317 00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:56,160 the ballet dancer theory. Did actually learning the truth about him ever feel like 318 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,759 a bit of a letdown? Compared to the wild stories. Is that actually 319 00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:06,960 better reality? Sometimes it's stranger than truth. Reality is fiction stranger than fiction. 320 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,480 I like the new way we're going trying to find Dorothy. And another 321 00:25:11,559 --> 00:25:15,279 thing occurred to me is that this man came into the marriage with a fancy 322 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,839 car, tennis racket, that kind of income, that kind of level of 323 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,640 life. And you can see he gets married, he starts selling stuff off 324 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,880 and about forty one forty two, this is happening, and then in forty 325 00:25:30,079 --> 00:25:36,279 later forty seven, that's when trouble is evolving. I'm wondering if Dorothy started 326 00:25:36,319 --> 00:25:38,519 out with him but trying to get him, what would you say, black 327 00:25:38,599 --> 00:25:42,279 widow? Where you marry someone who's affluent and then you work on him, 328 00:25:42,279 --> 00:25:45,839 and you work on him, and over time you get rid of him something 329 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,079 I'm just wondering. So I'm wondering if she's sitting there thinking, oh, 330 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:56,039 rats, he left, I can't isn't going to work? Oh, Because 331 00:25:56,079 --> 00:26:03,039 I've always assumed that the poisonous self administered. But I guess what you're saying, 332 00:26:03,279 --> 00:26:07,599 there's a possibility there could be a murder mystery mixed in here. Wow, 333 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:11,200 Yeah, we don't know. It could have been assisted suicide here, 334 00:26:11,279 --> 00:26:15,160 Carl, how about this? Let me give you Let me give you some 335 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,559 food for the trip, So if you get hungry, just have a bite 336 00:26:18,559 --> 00:26:22,160 of this apple and everything will be fine. You don't know. That's why 337 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,640 we've got to find out what happened to Dorothy, because somebody might have poison 338 00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:32,400 her. Maybe one of the husband's caught on and gave her the poison apple. 339 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,799 First, we don't know how. Oh, when you said assisted suicide, 340 00:26:36,799 --> 00:26:40,519 I thought to myself, Carl, you seem really depressed and you're out 341 00:26:40,559 --> 00:26:42,960 of money, so let me just help you step off the edge here. 342 00:26:44,839 --> 00:26:48,119 Yeah, she's said, Now, this divorce decree is one sided. You're 343 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:53,039 reading her rendition correct, Yes, desiring to get a divorce, so she 344 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,200 doesn't go into the gambling, but she does go into the depression. I 345 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:02,440 evident she says, just happened. She doesn't say always managed depressed, They 346 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:07,279 didn't go there. But talking about his behavior is erratic behavior? What is 347 00:27:07,319 --> 00:27:12,039 it? Anger? Lashing out the whole money, taking her money which she 348 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:17,799 earns, and locking her out. That's one sided. He doesn't have a 349 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,079 chance to really tell you what happened. Yeah, and so she doesn't really 350 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,079 she says she's a pharmacist and then goes on and never brings that up again. 351 00:27:26,319 --> 00:27:32,599 Yeah, that is cool, and her my radar went off, Wait 352 00:27:32,599 --> 00:27:37,240 a minute, you needed a prescription to get those barbiturates back then, And 353 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:42,279 her well dressed husband ends up dead on the beach, likely from poison of 354 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:48,440 some sort. That's interesting. Yeah, you have to think about that. 355 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:53,519 So what is the next big case on your caseload or do you can you 356 00:27:53,559 --> 00:27:59,000 talk about I can't tell you that we have a big whopper we're going to 357 00:27:59,079 --> 00:28:02,039 come out with, but it's taking a while to get it. We have 358 00:28:02,079 --> 00:28:06,160 to confirm you got the agency to okay, yet you've got to arrange for 359 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,799 the big press conference. So you got to get all the guys with the 360 00:28:08,839 --> 00:28:12,400 metals on their chest to all be there at one time. And one's got 361 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,359 this and one's got that. No, they won't stand next to that other 362 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,039 guy whatever. But yeah, I want to say, they're all very nice 363 00:28:19,079 --> 00:28:22,119 people, but we do have a and I will be glad to come back 364 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,839 and tell you about that one. Yeah. In fact, I have a 365 00:28:26,839 --> 00:28:30,160 couple that are of my sleeve. I can't say anything about it. Or 366 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,799 all get in really deep water and deep trouble and it'll be awful and we 367 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:42,039 can't have that. This Carl web story from Australia taking the name Somerton men 368 00:28:42,319 --> 00:28:47,319 all the way out now to identifying him, and I know there are open 369 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:52,920 issues. This is such a fascinating story. Anyone said anything to you about 370 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:57,400 this would make an incredible movie. I know you've got a television show already 371 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:02,519 in development. This would make an incredible movie. I'd go to see this 372 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:07,160 movie. I don't not yet. I think that, yeah, they'll come 373 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,880 after us. I've been on numerous podcasts, it's been in various Australian newspapers 374 00:29:12,079 --> 00:29:18,519 went and went wild. I had imagine I had to schedule fifteen minute slots. 375 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,440 It went like that. It wasn't as well publicized here because it's not 376 00:29:22,519 --> 00:29:26,240 this country's case. It was in the UK as well, so I wouldn't 377 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,039 be surprised. And I would like to say the TV program went into pilot, 378 00:29:30,079 --> 00:29:34,480 but Denny god canceled because we're so sorry it wasn't diverse enough. That's 379 00:29:34,519 --> 00:29:38,640 fine, Fine, Fine, another story for another time. Fine, But 380 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:44,359 I do agree the whole Sumrton thing is and with the right people, maybe 381 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,359 they could help us find out what happened to Dorothy. It's going to be 382 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,000 the name of the TV series that they do what happened to Dorothy? What 383 00:29:51,079 --> 00:29:53,359 happened to Dorothy? Not happened to Dorothy? There you go. Yeah, 384 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,920 what Happened to Dorothy is gonna be that serious. It's just so much it's 385 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,720 gonna never end. We do that. You will come back and join us 386 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,720 as soon as you have another break in a case that you can tell us 387 00:30:03,759 --> 00:30:07,160 about, because we do love hearing about the great work that you're doing here 388 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:12,440 in the big investigative jigsaw puzzle that it's like I would lose. I would 389 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,480 lose all of my patients with the various ins and outs in the tray scenes 390 00:30:17,519 --> 00:30:19,880 of different paths. So hats off to you for having the patients to do 391 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,160 this. I wouldn't have that at all. We'll tell me that. But 392 00:30:23,799 --> 00:30:26,319 what do you do? You just say, oh, I can't get in 393 00:30:26,359 --> 00:30:30,599 five minutes. I'll see you later. You're stuck. It's like a tar 394 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,640 baby that, yeah, how am I ever? You can't. It's hard 395 00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:38,400 not to have patience with a tar baby because you can't get out of it. 396 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,640 What are you going to do but sit there and you just stay with 397 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,839 it and you see it all the way through. But it's fascinating and I 398 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,200 can't even calculate. How many thousands of hours do you think you put in 399 00:30:49,279 --> 00:30:53,559 on this case of mister Webb since twenty fifteen, quite a few now on 400 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,559 the actual since the beginning of the year. Now, I don't know a 401 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,440 lot. Yeah, I've put a lot of time in. Yeah it. 402 00:31:02,519 --> 00:31:06,440 Derek did too, and it was great working with him because he's such a 403 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,640 good sport and he has this quirky smile and he can see he's up to 404 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,839 something, and he said it was funny. His wife is not really the 405 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,440 granddaughter of the Summerton Man, so she was teasing him saying, now when 406 00:31:18,519 --> 00:31:26,319 you have to get a divorce? Oh, Colleen. Thank you so much 407 00:31:26,359 --> 00:31:29,519 for joining us to talk about the Summrton Man, and we will definitely have 408 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,519 you back to talk about your next amazing cases. Okay, they're in the 409 00:31:33,599 --> 00:31:38,839 pipeline. We're getting ready. Watch this space, stay tuned for future developments. 410 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:42,599 Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Mind Over Murder. 411 00:31:44,359 --> 00:31:57,559 We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero 412 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:04,440 and another Dog productions. Our Executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 413 00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:08,920 Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 414 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:15,440 Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can 415 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,640 follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our 416 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,119 page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow 417 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:29,519 Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to 418 00:32:29,559 --> 00:32:30,880 mind Over Murder.