The play Passion and Purpose, where we invite our guests to showcase their joy
through their everyday passions. I'm Terry Fierro, your co host, and we
have mar Lenny Cruz. Yeah, Marny. Well, welcome, ladies and
gentlemen. I think we have a very interesting guest today. He is all
about creative thinking, creative aging, and who doesn't want that? Oh,
and poetry as well well. Doctor Christopher Parker is a teaching artist focusing on
creativity. He has been published in poetry journals and scholarly periodicals. He currently
teaches creative thinking at Montclair State University, and it is written that his workshops
stimulate the mind, create joy, and help one to engage in social fun.
Oh I need that for you, So without further ado, let us
well, welcome doctor Christopher Parker. Welcome, doctor lightful to be here.
Yeah, we're very eager to hear about your experiences. So tell us first,
I guess about your journey. How you got onto this path of creative
thinking, creative fun, poetry. Well, I think I started as a
child. I like language, but I like narratives and I like stories.
Yeah, so as a kid, I made the Kodak Movie Awards films when
we had the Kodak Company, and I won like a first place. Oh
wow, right for a little narrative on one of my brothers who's still an
actor of sorts. He works for the government. How old were you then?
Oh? I probably was in eighth grade, so what would that be?
Twelve or thirteen? And then I moved on to high school and made
other films that won the first place in the New Jersey Public Television Young People's
Film Festival. My brother, little brother is now a Hollywood director. I
moved on to other things, but people say fired him anyway. But I
was always interested in narrative and story. In high school, I picked up
poetry, so I said, I want to write this. And then it's
time to graduate, and I wanted to go to university, so I said
I want to do the Poetry Journal, and I did that. Then I
said I want a good MFA program, so I went to the Columbia MFA
program, which takes work to get into. Had great teachers or great inspiration
inspiring people. They were great teachers. So Derek Walcott, who was a
Nobel Prize winner, wasn't at that time. Joseph Brodsky, one of the
great Russian immigrant poets, and then then somebody else entirely different, like Phil
Lavigne. So these were inspiring to me. All the other poets I worked
with are inspiring, and some of my colleagues are still inspiring to me as
well. I came out, I said, well, I have to work,
so I want to be a poet in the schools is what we called
it back in nineteen seventy nine. We're eighty now it's called teaching artists.
Okay, but I got into that program and I've been doing that for forty
three years, wow and off. Even when I'm full time in the business
world, I was doing I was still a teaching artist. The Dodge Foundation
has a big high school version of it, and they liked that I was
a working person and an artist to show that does work. And I was
inspiring to the teachers, especially because we were really teaching teachers how to teach
the art poetry and it goes on. So I've been doing that ever since.
And of course creative thinking was offered to me because at Montclair State,
because I showed up at meetings and I had a history of working with other
artists and myself. So that's very interesting. What kind of poetry do you
focus on or do you like in my personal writing? Yes, and person
well, I like the great poets from like Audent more contemporary. I like
reading Joseph Brodsky to see what he did in English. Although some of his
English writing we don't recommend all the time, No we don't. He did
great stuff in translation translated by others. It was beautiful and amazing. Uh
So that's what I look at those translations. And Derek Walcott was a poet
and a playwright. By the way, I'm writing place too nice because it's
multi passionate. Love that, Yeah, and I read I read Derek well.
And I also read what's coming up in the New Yorker and in the
poetry journals like Poetry Magazine. And what kind of poetry do you write well,
I think I would write narratives they have hopefully they have a story.
I always like that stories. And I like to use a lot of metaphor,
and that's what I teach and creative thinking, by the way, metaphor
as one of the thinking processes for creative thinking, and I like to play
with language. Earlier on, we were talking about ai Ai writing for us.
I don't use that yet, but who knows, we may. But
I use others. I use a the things I use tools. I use
the Dutch Boy paint fan deck, which has the great names of metaphors for
colors. By the way, you're the best one because the market place.
You're right, I always wonder who has that job, you know, they
they name lipsticks and makeup colors and paint chips, and that's that's fascinating.
Yeah, so can you share something with us? I mean, how long
are your is your poetry? You have long poetryes or short pieces? I
have some short pieces. I'm not thinking of any, but I have one
to read if Yeah. So this is what I'm doing recently, and it's
a new m milieu from me. Okay, I'm moving on to religious okay
poetry because there's a whole movement in that I wasn't before. I always mentioned
spirituality and okay, So this one is inspired by a painting from a friend
of mine, Denver, Colorado's name is Ron Zero. He does I said,
Ron, Yeah, I'm going to write some ekphrastic poetry that means painting
based on I mean poetry based on pictures or images or artwork. You've heard
even in cartoons owed to a Grecian urn. Yes, that might have been
one of the early frastic ones. Okay, so here's this one. It's
called August fifteenth, six am. It's August fifteenth because that is the assumption
of the Virgin Mary in the Christian faith the Catholic faith. I must redeem
my transfer pass. I take streetcar twelve to Lafayette Cemetery in New Orleans.
My incense a cigarette on the driver's lips. The iron wheels and electric roof
pole a raspy quintet. Thus the travel time slips from long to present.
My bulletin went to press yesterday, so I stay on track. The street
car struck a junction to select a direction. Aft One woman suckles her infant
draped in blue. It's my station. I pushed the chime at Lafayette.
Magnolia's lose their bloom by June. A rattle wattlewood shed, formerly painted gold,
is now gray? Is it abylone? Peuture fawn or thundercloud? A
blue tarp furls freyed a kinetic monument to the eastern wind. The landscaper's contract
taped under the arc is a hollowing sign. Here I pray for Mary's body.
It's waning twilight quote sailing to dark her last long sleep, three bells
her night, tryst that lasts on the course in divine light, to be
amidst her offspring, raining right her perception, A fluid extension of Gabriel's early
declaration. Amen. Now our corridor on the planet is vacant, the magnet
latent. No need for the Cajun restaurateur. So I bite my own English
muffin monstrous size. Thomas's solace at the repose of Mary is gifted to me.
One white rose pedal from yesterday's service close is stuck between the slats.
The blue remains. Life changes like clipped hair, Its fibers fall further from
who reins no transfer trip fare there. Wow, Wow, that's Steve.
I can understand the metaphors that you use, and I love the combining the
past with the present. And it slows you down as a reader, as
a as a listener, because you need to you find the association of the
words. It's not like reading a story where you're just going along and it's
just this takes a lot more work on the on the viewer or on the
person that's reading it. And I'm sure that's the intent. Well, I
appreciate that you say it takes a lot more work. That's a that's a
benefit and a curse. Okay, you know, I'm reading the new journals
and I like what's being read, even some of the Catholic journals, and
it's not quite what I do. I want to be in the mood and
be in the tone that they use, but do I I don't really want
to. Okay, I'm I'm of sure enough age where I can choose my
I think I want to choose my own form, my own style, my
own way of writing. This might take a lot more work to publish,
it might not. You know, this artist throughout the centuries who've done great
new work but didn't get recognized until later. And it's it's interesting. I'm
almost trying to picture the art with the words. You know, there's a
lot of contrast there. Like one that that's stuck with me was the part
with the cigarette and then you you kind of contrast that with like the religious
Like there's contrasts right that you have to kind of think about it and compare.
Yeah, that It's just deep. It makes you think, I love
it. Would you have been capable of writing this in your early twenties or
is this something that you feel as you've aged you've become better at it.
That's a good question. Yeah. As I've aged, I've I've become more
confident even when nobody else likes it or has to work on it. Yes,
I'm going through with it anyway. Okay. No, these are tools
I've learned over fifty years. Okay. So I have the methodology to write
this and the wisdom and the experience and the wisdom I hope so absolutely.
As reading it to you, I go, okay, I gotta change that.
I got a change, never satisfied. Right, that's so interesting.
So you talk a lot in your programs about creative aging and we're all aging,
So what what do you mean by that? What is your intent with
that? Well, as we discussed, aging is really living longer. Okay,
more opportunities right. I Oh, I'm sorry, I said I like
how you put that. There's some research from the National Dawnmad for the Arts
and then that National Health Foundation that said that the arts are actually good for
us on healing and in our aging people. You know, as years go
by, you get loneliness, you get isolation, you don't use your minds.
My adult older students say this is this is when I think, I'm
so glad you gave us some work I have to think about. Yeah,
they appreciate the direction. Yeah. I think also creativity changes as we age,
because as you just expressed, we become more risk takers. We have
to because what have we got to lose? And so I can see that,
Yes, we need to think more, we need to apply new skills
and take more risks in that area. Now, my question would be,
is poetry similar to painting, for example, that is sometimes left in the
interpretation of the person that's looking at it or listening. Well, I think
I like the way you worded it. Yes, it's left in the interpretation.
Sure. Painting it also tells narratives, sometimes also has metaphor sometimes also
my students we often bring them to paintings and say, I want the smell,
I want the feeling. I want how you what does that texture feel
like in touch? I want the sound to come out of this. So
you can do that with language. Language does make sound, doesn't It's I'm
giving you noise. Really that people understand. I love it. You're using
the five senses, yes, oh yes, and my head, my brain
is hurting, just saying you, well, what is the texture of that
pain? What is it smelling? Well, what exactly do you mean by
that? And I think I do understand it, but I don't know how
to express that, right, how do you express it? Well, that's
a good that's a good point. So I give tools to start to my
students, whether they're ninety or they're eighteen, or they're twenty five. And
so those tools are things like, okay, let's look at the colors,
and I do bring out the Dutch Boy paint fandex because they have the best
metaphors for colors. You can take this language, you could take that feelings.
I use the emotion wheel. Oh yes, it's a circle that shows
different categories of emotions. Yeah, I feel really bad. Okay, Well
that's not what we do in poetry. Fine, never say fine, okay,
go into the details of your emotions. You know, get the specific
vocabulary. You probably knew it once when you learned it, but you never
use them, even as ninety year olds. So we get the name for
our emotion I love it. It's like going to a buffet and always eating
the same thing and you see the other foods there, but you're not going
to experience them. That's an excellent metaphor for that way. Yeah, and
with sound, I'll use toys and tools to make noise. I'm saying now,
you can't say this is a pipe that stretches. That's not what this
is. We need a metaphor for the sound, and we need the physics
of this sound like, yeah, it sounds like coins dropping from a can.
Okay, well what kind of can? Is it? A metal can?
Is a plastic and what's falling onto? If it palls onto carpeting,
it's a different sound that it calls onto porcelain. Yeah, what is And
how's the moisture in the air that changes the sound too? Wow? So
we do that? Yeah, you're really making your your students think. And
that's what we need because we're you know, if you look at blues taxonomy,
we are not synthesizing. We're not problem solving, we're not decision making,
and this type of exercise will lead to the it's not just basic.
Well yeah, that's that felt hard and that sounded good and you know,
we over use some simple words. So I just love that. Now.
I wanted to ask you a question because there is something called fluid intelligence and
crystallized, and I just finished reading a book where we have this fluid intellectualism
when we're younger. It's being able to recall facts and memorize, and then
it peaks about age twenty, whereas crystallized, as we're getting older, we
then pick and choose, We trim off what's not really important. And so
we need the young and the old because we need the fluid and the crystallized
to come together. So what is your understanding of that or how do you
appreciate that? Well? I appreciate the description. I think it's all metaphoric.
It is exactly science, but it's a good description of how we perceive
something. Yeah, it fluid. I'm not sure that's actually accurate. I
say a lot of young people too, and I have college students come in
and they are not fluid always some people of this class is not for me
and not but they leave right because this is they're so structured. They want
something that makes sense, that's definable and easy, and they're taught by their
paradigms. Don't be creative, just do this. That's not what makes money,
exactly right. It doesn't make money, but it does create people make
money, absolutely okay. Because we always have this idea of the starving artist,
you know. Yeah, that's our our mental picture. So you're you're
absolutely right. I think the more we can distinguish ourselves and set ourselves apart,
the better it is for our own profession and for society. Oh,
I think so definitely. That's one of my biggest obstacles to the creative thinking
class is that starving artists paradigm. Also, some students are A plus students,
and they didn't get a plus by doing things outside the box. They're
very good in the box. Now the box is good. You should never
leave the box. Probably absolutely play it two and cut a hole in itself.
You know. As a fellow educator, I remember my students coming up
to me every few minutes if I gave them something creative to do, Miss
Ferrill, Is this right? Miss Ferrell? Am I doing this right?
Go sit down, because you determine what's right and what's wrong. Usual they
were afraid to use their creativity. They felt that I was to be pleased.
I was the one giving the grade, and so let me just give
her what she wants rather than how I can express myself best. That's exactly
right. They want to have the exact rule how you do this exactly?
Yes? Does that happen in poetry as well, where people think that is
this right or wrong? Is you know? I'm assuming that poetry has that
flexibility where you can just make up this whole new kind of genre if you
will. Well, there is that, you can make up a whole new
genre. But you can also use the old ancient forms. And people do
the sonnet, the villainel, the sistina, these old poetry forms. Okay,
you know, I tell us about it. Okay, Well, like
two roads diverge into yellow Wood or Shakespeare's sonnets. It's a form, okay.
And the good thing about it is that actually helps you write. It
can follow a form. Okay, I gotta do this or right, I
have these words to fit into this. I could see that like a high
qu because it gives you structure, and as a beginner, we would need
structure exactly. As a matter of fact, yesterday with some with some ninety
year old students, we wrote high kup. Most of them had never heard
of high ku or they heard of it, They had no idea what it
was. Everybody loved doing hi kup and they counted syllables with their fingers.
I showed them that's the easiest way to go, and so, yeah,
so form helps you. A matter of fact, that's where they they were
least fearful about the form, although they did say this takes a lot of
work. I said, this is not easy. I said, well,
do you want easy classes here? I don't think they really. Do you
want to be stimulated? Yes? I When I was about eight or nine
months pregnant, I wrote a very long poem for my daughter. I would
love to send that to you so you can read it. And it took
me quite some time. It took me about five hours to write. And
how I started, I've never taken poetry classes, I've never written poetry before.
This was just out of my head. And I started by getting some
keywords that I wanted her to have for her lifetime. I started with those
keywords, and then from those key words, I chose words that rhymed with
those keywords, and then I separated them by little tiny paragraphs, and that
you know. That's how I started the poem. So I've never taken a
poetry class. What does a poetry class consist of? And what does it
teach? What to respond to your poem? Firth, You did invent a
form. You had a complete structure and a form. You want these words,
you want a rhyme for these words, and you want paragraphs. It's
sort of like saying a stanza or a length. So what you asked about
a poetry workshop or a poetry class, Yeah, potry, What does this
consist of? And what do people you know, learn? Well, I
do them sometimes and back for creative thinking. We do a lot of poetry,
but we don't call it that. When I was at Columbia University,
it's basically these big deal poets, you know, at a table, like
we're sitting at here, and we go and they talk or she talks,
and we go over mostly what we wrote, and we get feedback from people.
And I remember from Joseph Brotsky he said, okay, remember a poem
and a great poetry by Audin and write it down like a hundred times.
Now. We learned that in like second grade, right a lot of times.
Yeah, that's graduate school at Columbia University from Nobel Prods winning poets.
This is what they teach. So that's what it's about. It's about getting
feedback from your community. And that's also creative aging. That's valuable to my
students at in Clifton. Now, you know, at one time, when
I first started teaching many years ago, I actually had students memorize poetry.
Yes, and you know, it's just a good mind exercise, and then
I would have them recited for their parents. I retired a few years ago.
We stopped that entirely. I mean because the administration said, well,
there's really no benefit to that, which I disagree with. Yes, so
it went by the wayside like most arts usually do. But anyway, how
can we be creative with math and science? How can we incorporate that into
creativity. That's a good one, because I'm not a step back some research
on creativity with math and science, and I like working with that. First
of all, you can come up with mathematics. Now, what is this
the Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences? I actually okay, And it shows the amount
of the number format of trees in a formation of trees in an orchard.
You know, okay, And so if I want to write about orchards,
I'll write my poetry with the form that cast covers five seven, six from
that and I'll go, do I want five words five syllables? So I'll
follow the math for that. That's a great way to teach you. That's
really cool. At Montclair State for a while there, I was the poetry
advisor to physics and math. Oh my goodness, student project to come over
and how can I write poetry about the science of juggling, which there is
math too. Yeah, yeah, so that's how I feel about math.
I think it's important to put into poet, all right, And so what
do you feel like? How do you feel about limericks or poetry from Shell
Silverstein, which I you know, as a fourth and fifth grade teacher absolutely
loved to expose my students too. And it's so playful and it's so much
fun when you can rhyme words as was also a songwriter, Shel Silvers.
And I love Johnny Cash as a boy named Sue, which has a lot
of communication for today in various various ways. And so that's poetry too.
I love Sell Silverstein. However, I did one point have a middle school
class in Middlesex County that I was teaching, and the mother wanted her son
to be able to write shelves silver stain or what's her name? Doctor Seuss?
Oh yeah, I said, Okay, I appreciate that. That's not
what we're doing. Okay, that's not the curriculum I us. Okay,
right, So so some people really want that. I don't think anything's wrong
with that at all. Yeah, And it's a fun way to learn when
you can rhyme words. Yes, it is, yes, especially for younger
How about humor? Do you use humor in your poetry? Use or or
as humor even used? Is that a thing? Oh? I think it's
a good question. I think I use humor. I don't even know am
using humor. Especially in classes people laugh several times in classic Oh what was
that about? Okay, I obviously said something funny. Now just being metaphoric,
just talking about how you saw something, how you feel about something,
giving a tiny story about what happened this morning on the way in. All
of those things are humor, And yes, I think humor is important.
And poetry I put the romatic sometimes or serious to me, which you might
have to think as you mentioned to interpret, but I think humor is important
to add to that too. You can do do humor with language with types
of rhymes, and you mentioned rhyme before. You can also do subtle rhymes.
You can rhyme half the word. You can rhyme the end and the
beginning of these words and put another word in to the next line. That
way, people don't quite know that it's yes, I'm right, it's not
cat and that. But but it hooks them and it's quite nuanced. But
they go, it's nuanced. That's a good word for it, And they
go, that's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. I do
like it. It resonates. I think it's analogous to when you're selling your
house. Wow, you clean the switch plate. You can change the switch
plates, okay, because this fingerprints all over them, and the numbers on
your house they're rust first impressions. Okay, very absolutely. Do poets get
writer's block, Well, that's a good question. Yes you can, But
you can also just keep working writing buck doesn't matter. I've got to work.
He made his slim living on poetry, so he wrote all the time.
He smoked ciggybuts he drank drinks. He ate food, and he wrote
poetry, so you can just make yourself do it. So amazing. So
now how would you approach the person because I have absolutely no creativity. I
don't know how to write poetry. I don't have a creative thought in my
head. Or do you do you think everybody is capable of writing a poem?
Yes? I think everybody is capable of writing a poem because I've done
it with students who who say exactly this, and they in fact do so.
Yes, I think everybody is capable of creative thinking. And there are,
as we mentioned, social paradigms that blocked this, beliefs that you're not
going to make any money at it, this is a waste of your time.
So what you have an idea? We've heard these things from people who
love us. Sometimes they yeah the best for us. But we even write
at Montclaire State Theater reviews for things we've never seen. These students have never
been to live theater. Okay, now they have to write a New York
Times style review filled with the language and the metaphor of that, and what
they can produce is amazing. But I help them do it with some toys
and tools. So we listen to the elements of music or the elements of
dance and write the metaphors for what you saw. And the writing can be
amazing. Oh you use music too, absolutely for sure. That's really cool.
So what how can we age creatively besides poetry? What else can you
teach us to age creatively? Good? Well, you probably should make a
commitment to yourself to do something creative every day, and it can be something
new and creative. You can invent something, put it on your post it
note and put on your refrigerator. Make a commitment to doing something. I
make a commitment. You can write in your journal, you can take workshops.
There's probably a lot of things online you can do too. So it's
all about coming out of your comfort zone, yes, and saying I don't
think I can do this for I'm going to try anyway, trying things.
Okay. Wow, So this has just been absolutely fascinating And I want to
go home and write a poem. I would love to get your idea on
the poem I wrote for my daughter. Yeah, I would love that.
So, Doctor Parker, if our audience wants to reach out and find out
more about your work, how could they do that? Well, they can
send me an email. Okay, okay, so give us those Christopher Parker
eight one zero at Gmail. Also, I have a couple of websites.
Here's go ahead, doctor Dr Christopher W. Parker. My wife helped me
name that one dot com. Okay, Dr christ Christopher W. Parker.
Uh Living Poetically? Oh? I like that poetic? And do you feature
some of your own poems on there that people could read, or poems of
your students. That's a good question. I feature access to some of that
things I will teach or methodologies I've used, and you can use them right
there if you want. Alrighty, Well, we look forward to looking at
your work and further investigating the websites and the programs. I would love to
know more about the program so you have that information and when the dates on
your website, I'll put that on. Yeah, why not? I think
we would like that our audience as well, because we'd like to know what
you're doing in the future. So you'll be going back to MSU in September
and what we'd be teaching. I'm also at Felician University teaching philosophy, and
I'm at Caldwell teaching writing classes. Look I gotta teach you how to be
ambitious. One campus. Nothing is further than seven miles. Oh that's not
that okay, Well, thank you so much, doctor Parker. And it's
been a fun, Yeah it really was. We need to invite you again,
yes, and we invite our audience to stay tuned next week. But
in the meantime, go home and write a home that thanks ladies, and
Jens will see you next time. Bye bye now