WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:09.919 This is Later with Lee Matthews the Lee Matthews Podcast More What You Here weekday 2 00:00:09.919 --> 00:00:15.119 afternoons on the Drive. Jane Ferguson is a HULK, MP Body, OPCA 3 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:19.839 and DuPont Award winning foreign correspondent for PBS News Hour and contributor to The New 4 00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:23.960 Yorker. She's reported from nearly every war around the globe, from Yemen to 5 00:00:24.039 --> 00:00:28.800 Syria, during the Arab Spring, Afghanistan and the Fall of Kabul. And 6 00:00:28.839 --> 00:00:33.560 she's joining us now to talk about her new memoir, No Ordinary Assignment, 7 00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:38.000 which is out now. Welcome Jane, Thank you Lee. So it all 8 00:00:38.039 --> 00:00:43.520 started for you in Ireland. It certainly did in a literal sense. I've 9 00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:47.200 born in Northern Ireland, born and raised just north of the border there and 10 00:00:47.479 --> 00:00:51.200 grew up there as a kid. Were you there when things were getting rather 11 00:00:51.240 --> 00:00:55.359 warm? Shall we say? I? I was born in nineteen eighty four, 12 00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:59.960 so that was also I was really growing up throughout the eighties and nineties, 13 00:01:00.520 --> 00:01:04.680 and I was living in just about the last Protestant village before you get 14 00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:10.799 to South Arma, which was a really big ira heartland right on the border 15 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:15.079 with the south of Ireland. So it was an extremely hot area. You 16 00:01:15.079 --> 00:01:18.319 know, when I was a kid growing up, it was very very normal 17 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:25.920 to me to have military checkpoints or a British military helicopters landing in my father's 18 00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:30.840 fields were we were a farmers. I lived on a small farm and and 19 00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:33.920 a lot of bombs going off, so it was pretty common to have the 20 00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:38.200 local village police station blown up every few years, bomb scares, a lot 21 00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:41.840 of bomb threats. You know, as a kid, you just normalize everything. 22 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:46.120 I thought this was normal, so that was certainly a part of life 23 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:49.079 growing up there. Do you think that influenced your interest in military reporting? 24 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:53.239 You know, I used to push back against that when people would see me 25 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:57.599 in the field, older reporters who remembered covering the troubles, more senior veterans, 26 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:00.560 and they'd say, oh, it all makes sense. Of course she 27 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:02.239 comes from Northern Ireland. And I would bristle at that and say no, 28 00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:07.439 no, no, that that there's no bearing on my career. But looking 29 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:10.080 back, and certainly through the process of writing a memoir and looking back, 30 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:14.240 you really can't help but connect the dots. I spent a lot of my 31 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:22.520 career really focused on and I'm just sort of really trying to understand insurgencies that 32 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:25.360 became something I was quite specialist at. I spent time with Hoothie rebels, 33 00:02:25.479 --> 00:02:31.280 Hamas, Taliban, Hezballah, Darfurian rebels my whole career, and I do 34 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:36.479 think looking back, is this little girl growing up in the foothills of Armah, 35 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:42.120 knowing that there were IRA units out there in the countryside, and somehow 36 00:02:42.599 --> 00:02:47.560 these groups of mostly men were bringing the most one of the most powerful nations 37 00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:53.919 militaries to its knees with a bunch of shotguns and bags of fertilizer, and 38 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:57.759 I just I couldn't. I was fascinated by that. I think it's also 39 00:02:57.800 --> 00:03:00.000 worth pointing out that you know, we were growing up in the trouble, 40 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:02.919 but it was The culture in Northern Ireland is quite an understated one. You 41 00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:06.879 know, there are certain things you just don't talk about, and you certainly 42 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:09.960 don't talk about them with children. So I think I was fascinated by the 43 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:15.759 mystery of it all. It's her memoir No Ordinary Assignment. Jane Ferguson writes 44 00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:23.479 all about her correspondence with several New York and PBS networks in Yemen, in 45 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:28.240 Syria and Arab Spring that all said as it's something about the Middle East in 46 00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:30.599 that intrigues you more than any other type of conflict, or is that where 47 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:37.319 all the conflicts are. It's a little bit of both. I was growing 48 00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:42.039 up watching on the television as a little girl the First Gulf War as well 49 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:46.000 as the wars in the Balkans. So it wasn't necessarily that I grew up 50 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:50.840 very very young thinking about living and working in the Middle East. But as 51 00:03:50.840 --> 00:03:53.120 I got older, I did get really interested in in the Middle East and 52 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:59.159 the history there. And then when I was in high school nine to eleven 53 00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:01.759 happened, and so I was this youngster who knew I wanted to be a 54 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:09.479 journalist, but had also just watched journalism really come up as an important source 55 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:14.919 of information for the world as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan really got started, 56 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:19.240 So that sort of shaped my future. I was at college just really 57 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:23.079 itching to get finished so I could go out on the road and be a 58 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:27.319 journalist. And you're right, at the time, that's where so much of 59 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:30.879 the news was coming from. Well, and I made a decision in this 60 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:32.920 business early in my career. I was fifteen when I started in this business. 61 00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:35.639 I knew what it was going to mean, what it's going to what 62 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:38.519 it was going to take. I was going to move around a lot, 63 00:04:38.759 --> 00:04:44.439 working holidays, working weekends, working overnights, a foreign correspondence in war. 64 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:46.759 That is probably as dicey as it gets. Were you prepared for it? 65 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:54.600 I definitely go by the saying what you don't know, you don't know. 66 00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:58.160 So I thought I was. Of course, I had all these romantic notions 67 00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:02.399 of my life on the road, and I think I I was as prepared 68 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:05.680 for it as anybody can be without having known what it's actually really like. 69 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:10.560 I was lucky enough to find that I loved the work. But as you 70 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:14.000 say, those of us you know, who do this work, it is 71 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:17.639 a massive, massive sacrifice on your personal life. And I do get into 72 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:19.759 that bit in the book, you know, I really talk about what it 73 00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:25.360 actually takes and what it takes from you as well, you know, things 74 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:28.560 that that you don't mind doing in your twenties, like running around, you 75 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:32.439 know, never really feeling settled, never really having a home, living on 76 00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:36.680 the road. That all feels very romantic and exciting and is in your twenties. 77 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:40.040 But you know, I do dig into that in the book, about 78 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:43.040 how it takes a lot from you. You know, you're you're You're not 79 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:46.439 a good partner, You're not a good you know, family member, You're 80 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:49.879 often just absent for a lot of it. So the cost of this extraordinary 81 00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:55.920 life is not to be underestimated. You hear her work on PBS News Hour 82 00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:59.879 and see her writing in The New Yorker. It's Jane Ferguson and the man 83 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:03.680 was no ordinary assignment. What has been your most dicey moment? Was there 84 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:06.879 ever a moment where you didn't you didn't think you're going to get out of 85 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:13.639 it? I would say, and I write about this in depth in the 86 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:16.319 book. There's there's one moment where I was very young. I was twenty 87 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:21.000 seven, and I go to Syria in the very early days of the war, 88 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:25.079 and I'm really there as a bit of an experiment for a network where 89 00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:29.079 they're sort of throwing me in as a young freelancer, and I essentially connect 90 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:33.800 with a bunch of activists who connect me with the free Syrian army, defected 91 00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:39.279 rebels and the defected soldiers very very early on in the revolution, and they 92 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:43.360 smuggled me across the border from Lebanon into Syria, and I spend several days 93 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:47.959 in Holm's City, which was the very center of the uprising there. And 94 00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:53.680 that was probably the most, even to this day, the most dangerous assignment 95 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:58.040 I've ever taken. And you know, the little rebel stronghold, if anybody 96 00:06:58.079 --> 00:07:02.800 remembers. This was an early twenty twelve, was completely surrounded by Asad's forces, 97 00:07:02.839 --> 00:07:08.480 by Bashar al Assad's forces in Syria, and journalists were just about being 98 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:12.120 able to be smuggled in. And I had, and I had had an 99 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:16.720 incredibly, incredibly frightening time running around reporting. I was able to get my 100 00:07:16.759 --> 00:07:21.480 stories done, but I left, and as I was leaving, they were 101 00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:28.519 essentially smuggling me out simply in effectively a fruit truck part sitting up next to 102 00:07:28.519 --> 00:07:32.240 to the driver disguised as his wife, but traveling through Syrian checkpoints, past 103 00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:38.079 Syrian soldiers, you know, incredibly close to getting caught in the end as 104 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:43.000 we crossed back into Lebanon. And I've always looked back and thought that was 105 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:46.839 wild and foolhardy. The reporting was worth it. It was incredibly important to 106 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:49.759 get the news out. But the activists were rotating journalists in just a tiny, 107 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:54.399 tiny trickle of us, those who would go following me there was a 108 00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:59.519 team went in that included Marie Colvin, the newspaper reporter from the Times of 109 00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:03.680 London Sunday Times of London, and she was killed actually as the next journalists 110 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:07.560 going in. So I've always looked back and thought I was really pushing my 111 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:09.600 luck there, and I was very, very lucky. It was no ordinary 112 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:13.319 assignment. She writes more about it in her memoir Jane Ferguson, and you'll 113 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:18.000 hear her on PBS News Hour and read her work in The New Yorker with 114 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:20.839 thank you for joining us, Thanks so much for having me, Thanks for 115 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:26.360 listening to Later with Lee Matthews, the Lee Matthews Podcast, and remember to 116 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:33.200 listen to The Drive Live weekday afternoons from five to seven and ihearts media presentation.