1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:07,519 Snapped is intended for mature audiences. Please use discretion when listening to access episode 2 00:00:07,559 --> 00:00:13,240 transcripts. Consider joining our Patreon at just two dollars a month. These transcripts 3 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,359 have a key at the top with the names and schools of every speaker, 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:21,800 so I highly recommend if you want the ultimate follow along experience, check them 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:27,800 out on Patreon dot com slash snapped. For additional details about Snapped, visit 6 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:32,640 Snaps the podcast dot com, and don't forget to follow us on social media 7 00:00:33,119 --> 00:00:40,039 at Snaps the Podcast. When I was eighteen years old, I became an 8 00:00:40,039 --> 00:00:45,679 Alpha FI sister at the University of Maryland. Three years after disaffiliating from the 9 00:00:45,759 --> 00:00:52,200 chapter and three days before graduating college, I released the first season of Snapped, 10 00:00:52,439 --> 00:00:57,520 a tell all podcast series about my sorority experience. Since the release of 11 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:03,039 season one, I've interviewed forty current or former Greek Life members, including some 12 00:01:03,119 --> 00:01:08,280 Greek Life adjacent individuals. These are their stories. I I'm Lucy Taylor, 13 00:01:08,719 --> 00:01:23,200 your host and favorite excommunicated sister. This is Snapped. Snapped. In two 14 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,120 thousand and five, a real estate investor named Donald Abbey visited his old frat 15 00:01:27,159 --> 00:01:33,200 house at Penn State Beta Theta Pie. Don Abbey is a billionaire, you 16 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:38,799 know, and he goes on and he saw that Beta Theta Pi had been 17 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:44,040 a vehicle to his success. But what he saw was that it had become 18 00:01:44,159 --> 00:01:49,519 something of like Inma House, not what he had wanted. It just preturning 19 00:01:49,519 --> 00:01:53,079 he has to become. According to a grand jury report, Abbey ended up 20 00:01:53,159 --> 00:01:59,879 spending a total of eight point five million dollars towards renovations of the Beta Fa 21 00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:05,799 to Pie House. However, throughout the renovation process, mister Abbey became concerned 22 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:10,360 with the Beta brothers drinking habits. Workers on the renovation were navigating puddles of 23 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:16,919 vomit and replacing patio doors because brothers who forgot their keys would kick the doors 24 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:22,960 in, you know, frat house stuff. Basically to Pie, Penn State 25 00:02:23,039 --> 00:02:27,479 went through the most expensive attorney house renovation in America's history. It was inspired 26 00:02:27,479 --> 00:02:30,560 by the White House, the chairs in the dining room, the gold on 27 00:02:30,599 --> 00:02:36,960 the kitchen ceiling. With so much money on the line and frat boys in 28 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:43,919 the house, mister Abbey needed a contingency plan, and a wealthy alumni had 29 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:51,599 refurbished it and then tried to basically ensure his investment because the members at that 30 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,599 time were destroying the work that had been done, so he was the one 31 00:02:55,639 --> 00:03:04,159 who put the camera system in there to basically ensure the safety of the building. 32 00:03:05,599 --> 00:03:10,599 As part of his multimillion dollar renovation, Don Abbey installed cameras throughout the 33 00:03:10,599 --> 00:03:16,879 Beta Theta Pie House. These cameras are the only reason we know exactly what 34 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:23,800 happened on the night of February second, when nineteen year old Tim Piazza showed 35 00:03:23,879 --> 00:03:30,319 up to accept his bid and start pledging his first night in a fraternity would 36 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:36,439 be the last night of his life. A national fraternity at Penn State University 37 00:03:36,599 --> 00:03:40,120 is suspended after the death of a student. Police saying nineteen year old Timothy 38 00:03:40,199 --> 00:03:46,520 Piazza, and engineering student, was found unconscious inside the Beta Theta Pie fraternity 39 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:53,159 house Friday morning. The coroner ruled his death accidental. Jareka Duncan reports investigators 40 00:03:53,439 --> 00:03:57,719 are now looking for video evidence from inside the fraternity house. Jika, good 41 00:03:57,759 --> 00:04:00,639 morning, Good morning. Timothy Piazza just recently joined the ranks of the Men 42 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:06,159 of Principle at Beta Theta Pi fraternity. Frat members told police and paramedics on 43 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:12,360 Friday morning, the team plunged down the basement stairs the previous night, and 44 00:04:12,439 --> 00:04:17,279 that their call for help came about twelve hours after his fall. This is 45 00:04:17,319 --> 00:04:24,120 Evelyn Piazza, Tim's mom. But Tim had mentioned to us that he was 46 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,839 thinking about rushing one more time. We really didn't think it was a good 47 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:33,560 idea. He was an engineering major and mechanical engineering major really tough course load, 48 00:04:34,319 --> 00:04:39,720 and I didn't want anything to take away from what he wanted to accomplish 49 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:44,680 in the long run. But I never wanted to be the parent that told 50 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:50,560 him what to do, so I would point out good and bad and tried 51 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:57,399 to lead him into the right decision, and yet he still wanted to give 52 00:04:57,439 --> 00:05:00,639 it a shot. So he had told me the one fraternity that he was 53 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,360 really interested in, which was Beta Theta Pie, and I had looked it 54 00:05:04,439 --> 00:05:12,120 up online and saw that it was a non hazing, non alcohol fraternity, 55 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,879 and I thought he made a good choice. Around the same time that Tim 56 00:05:15,879 --> 00:05:19,759 had told his mom that he was interested in Beta Theta Pie, Cordell Davis 57 00:05:19,959 --> 00:05:26,519 was a Beta pledge. I got initiated in December twenty sixteen ish. Tim's 58 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,519 plush costs came in February, so when I joined the fraternity, Beta Theta 59 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,639 Pie It was alcohol free. It was supposed to be. That was actually 60 00:05:34,639 --> 00:05:39,000 one of the things that drew me to it, because I had thought, 61 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,720 Okay, if it's alcohol free, they can't have this crazy hazing process. 62 00:05:43,439 --> 00:05:47,879 The Beta Theta Pie House was supposed to be alcohol free after the chapter was 63 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,800 shut down the first time for hazing. That was a few years before Tim 64 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:57,240 and Cordell showed up. But of course the frat reopened under you know, 65 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:03,279 we're alcohol free now. And but when I interviewed Cordell, I saw the 66 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:09,319 scar on his forehead that he got on bit acceptance night during the same hazing 67 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:14,920 event that would lead to Tim's death one semester later. So you go from 68 00:06:15,079 --> 00:06:18,199 rushing a fraternity, which is where you're just experimenting with everything and seeing which 69 00:06:18,199 --> 00:06:21,839 one you like, to becoming a pledge, which is where you're getting hazed 70 00:06:21,879 --> 00:06:28,360 insanely constantly, and then you're initiated, and then you're a newly initiated brother. 71 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,399 They called it a NIB, So as a NIB until there's another pledge 72 00:06:32,399 --> 00:06:39,240 class, you're basically still a pledge. So January December I was even though 73 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,680 we were initiated, we were still basically the pledges right, so I still 74 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:48,800 never got any respect whatsoever from anybody. Cordell and I met in Philadelphia last 75 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:54,600 October to do an interview in person. He was featured in the last episode, 76 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,639 The h Word. He was the one who got a head injury from 77 00:06:58,639 --> 00:07:01,399 a fall at the chapter how that was a result of hazing with alcohol, 78 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,319 the one who his brothers wanted him to lie to Urgent Care about how he 79 00:07:06,399 --> 00:07:13,000 fell. It's also important to note that Cordell was his chapter's only black member. 80 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,680 This is the first time, Lucy, that this is going to be 81 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:23,480 an accurate play by play, because I just had my deposition last month, 82 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:29,720 and it's just amazing how much I forgot. The deposition that Cordell is referring 83 00:07:29,759 --> 00:07:33,759 to is his official witness statement from the night Tim fell down the stairs on 84 00:07:33,839 --> 00:07:42,240 February second, twenty seventeen. I'll set the scene. It's bid acceptance night 85 00:07:43,759 --> 00:07:50,160 night one. Beta Fata Pie has undergone reforms that have earned it a reputation 86 00:07:50,319 --> 00:07:56,360 as a model fraternity. They've even won Penn States Chapter of the Year. 87 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:01,079 And the event that Tim is attending is supposed to be dry no alcohol. 88 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,160 To tell the story of that night, I'm using reporting from the Grand Jury 89 00:08:07,319 --> 00:08:11,120 and an article by Caitlin Flanagan for the Atlantic title Death at a Penn State 90 00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:18,199 Fraternity. Flanagan's coverage of Tim's death, Beta Theta Pie and the Inner workings 91 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:22,680 of Fraternity World is the most comprehensive assessment of Greek life that I found throughout 92 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:28,399 my research. The full article is linked in the episode description, and you 93 00:08:28,399 --> 00:08:31,959 should read it when you're done with this episode. I'm sure you'll have questions 94 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,320 that her article can answer. We're also going to hear from Tim's mom, 95 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:41,559 Evelyn, and Cordell, who played his own unique role in Tim's story. 96 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:46,639 Before we get into any details, I want to warn you that some of 97 00:08:46,639 --> 00:08:52,240 this is really hard to hear. The negligence and blatant disregard for human life 98 00:08:52,879 --> 00:09:01,240 is hard to wrap your head around, so please listen with caution. Tim 99 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,759 arrives to the Beta Theta Pie house at nine oh seven pm on February second. 100 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,960 Inside, fourteen pledges have lined up, each with their right hand on 101 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:15,440 the right shoulder of the person in front of them. Cordell Davis is there, 102 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:20,000 too, ready to welcome the new pledge class. First on the agenda 103 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,600 is a series of songs and skits for the new pledges to enjoy. After 104 00:09:24,639 --> 00:09:28,120 the ceremony, the gauntlet begins. This is the first act of hazing. 105 00:09:28,159 --> 00:09:35,639 Pledges will endure an alcohol fueled obstacle course around their new chapter house, their 106 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:43,480 dry chapter house. Station one, chug from a handle of vodka. Station 107 00:09:43,519 --> 00:09:48,879 two, shotgun and natty light while your brothers cheer you on Station three. 108 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:54,879 Slap a wine bag, gulping at least a mouthful. Station four, play 109 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,200 beer pong in the basement, chugging a full cup of beer if you miss 110 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:03,960 a shot. Station five. The full pledge class chugs a beer together before 111 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,679 heading off to their first social, where alcohol continues to flow. So after 112 00:10:11,039 --> 00:10:15,279 the ritual on the gauntlet, then came the party and again this social, 113 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:20,320 the social. Yes, the social. I saw on the camera footage in 114 00:10:20,399 --> 00:10:24,799 the basement. I had gone into tim piazza and it had kind of like 115 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,039 given him a handshake, slash a hug. And was this the first time 116 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:33,440 you met him? No, I hadn't met him before at another event, 117 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,360 which was a rush event. It had a good conversation and he had a 118 00:10:37,399 --> 00:10:41,639 lot to say about his family. You know, he's very family oriented. 119 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:46,440 And he walked away, and I thought to myself, he needs to walk 120 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,000 right out of this house. He's too good for this place. I still 121 00:10:50,039 --> 00:10:54,159 remember thinking that, you know, the beta Beta Pie social was in full 122 00:10:54,200 --> 00:11:01,960 swing. Security footage shows that at ten forty pm, Tim Staggering hunched over 123 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:07,159 and plops down on the couch, struggling to get up. Eventually, Tim 124 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:11,600 heads to the front door. Tim's mom, Evelyn, says Tim tried to 125 00:11:13,799 --> 00:11:16,759 let himself out of the house and couldn't figure out how to open the door 126 00:11:16,799 --> 00:11:22,200 because I think it was a keypad, and we think that's why he was 127 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:28,240 heading for the basement, because there was another exit in the basement, so 128 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:33,440 he was trying to save himself. After an unsuccessful attempt to exit out the 129 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:39,240 front, Tim staggers towards another door. Caitlin Flanagin reports that perhaps he is 130 00:11:39,279 --> 00:11:41,919 hoping that this door will be easier to open. Perhaps he is hoping that 131 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:46,759 it also leads out of the frat house. But it is the door to 132 00:11:46,799 --> 00:11:50,279 the basement, and when he opens it, perhaps expecting his foot to land 133 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:56,799 on level ground, he takes a catastrophic fall down the flight of stairs. 134 00:11:58,919 --> 00:12:03,759 Another brother here the fall seized him and shoots a text to the frat group 135 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,679 chat, Tim Piazza might actually be a problem. He fell fifteen feet down 136 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,720 a flight of steps, hair first, going to need help, Four of 137 00:12:11,759 --> 00:12:16,039 the brothers carried him up the stairs. By now he has somehow lost his 138 00:12:16,159 --> 00:12:22,159 jacket and tie, and his white shirt has ridden up, revealing a strange, 139 00:12:22,279 --> 00:12:26,120 dark bruise on his Torso this is something that I didn't see with my 140 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:30,000 own eyes, but I watched on the video camera footage. There's twenty to 141 00:12:30,039 --> 00:12:33,960 forty people who saw Tim being carried up the stairs. He's on the couch 142 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,360 and they just surround him. Some of them are laughing, some of their 143 00:12:37,399 --> 00:12:41,639 pointing, and nobody thinks anything of it. And this is during the social 144 00:12:43,799 --> 00:12:48,000 Flanagan says that while Tim is on the couch, one brother performs a Sternham 145 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,759 rub, which is a test for unconsciousness used by EMTs, but Tim does 146 00:12:52,759 --> 00:12:58,799 not respond. Another brother throws beer in his face. Someone lifts Tim's arm 147 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:05,639 and it falls back dead weight to his chest. A brother rolls to him 148 00:13:05,639 --> 00:13:09,639 on his side, but has to catch him because he almost rolls onto the 149 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,639 floor. Another brother straps a backpack full of books to him to keep him 150 00:13:13,639 --> 00:13:18,519 from rolling over, and choking on his vomit. Two brothers sit on Tim's 151 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:24,600 legs to keep him from moving. This is when Cordell walks into the video 152 00:13:24,639 --> 00:13:28,480 frame. At one point there's twenty forty people surrounding him, and then when 153 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,440 I got in there there was a lot less, but sitting on him, 154 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,960 sitting on his legs was the person who had driven me from the clinic back 155 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,879 to the returning the house when I had my fault my head, and I 156 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,039 knew right away there was a huge problem. So he's laying on the couch, 157 00:13:43,159 --> 00:13:46,840 lying on the couch and conscious. Being a former football player, I 158 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,159 mean, we were very trained in high school. Concussions were no joke. 159 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,039 So I knew right away as somebody who is on the couch and unconscious, 160 00:13:54,120 --> 00:14:00,000 there's something really wrong like past, Like oh, maybe let's put him, 161 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:01,320 give him much. He can't take a test. No, this is like 162 00:14:01,399 --> 00:14:09,840 immediate nine one one hospital urgent now. And nobody thought that I was correct. 163 00:14:11,159 --> 00:14:16,399 Caitlin Flanagan reports that two hours into the security footage, Cordell walks into 164 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,799 the frame and approaches the couch where Tim is lying, still unconscious. The 165 00:14:20,879 --> 00:14:26,159 presentment notes that Cordell leans over Timothy's head. He then turns to the Beata 166 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:31,320 brothers near Timothy and becomes very animated, again, pointing at his head and 167 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,159 then at Tim and I know the thought was there that he could die. 168 00:14:35,159 --> 00:14:37,960 I don't. I don't remember if I said it. I know I wanted 169 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,720 to. I wanted to. I know I said the words I'm going to 170 00:14:41,759 --> 00:14:46,799 grab my phone and call name on myself, and that's when I was thrown 171 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:52,039 against the wall. The presentment states that when the brothers told Davis that tim 172 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:58,440 had fallen down the basement stairs, he became even more concerned now for Timothy's 173 00:14:58,519 --> 00:15:01,919 life. He's as to them that tim needed to go to the hospital since 174 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:07,399 he could have a concussion. He screamed at them to get help. In 175 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,120 response, one of the Beta brothers rose from the couch and shoved Cordel into 176 00:15:11,159 --> 00:15:16,480 the opposite wall. He instructed Cordell to leave and that they had it under 177 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,960 control. Several people had pushed me. I didn't know that until the deposition, 178 00:15:22,039 --> 00:15:24,639 Like my brain had taken so much out. They were telling me, 179 00:15:24,919 --> 00:15:31,000 think about Beta, you're overreacting. I was called crazy, I was called 180 00:15:31,039 --> 00:15:37,480 insane. I was called chaotic and drunk. I was told that they have 181 00:15:37,679 --> 00:15:45,320 these kinesiology career paths and biology career paths, so they knew they knew how 182 00:15:45,759 --> 00:15:50,840 to handle this. And all of this just gone in my head and I 183 00:15:50,879 --> 00:15:54,440 doubted myself. I didn't think it was appropriate for me to be that person. 184 00:15:56,159 --> 00:15:58,600 I thought it would have to be a person in power. That's why 185 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:04,399 I was basically trying to lobby everybody in the house to get on that page. 186 00:16:04,879 --> 00:16:08,279 But even after all of this, I'm talking with the social chairs now 187 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,000 and I'm trying to get them on board with calling nine on one. I 188 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,000 couldn't get the vice president, I couldn't get the assistant plugemaster, I couldn't 189 00:16:17,039 --> 00:16:22,480 get the executive board. So now I'd tried the social chairs, and in 190 00:16:22,559 --> 00:16:26,000 this moment, I didn't know it then, but I knew it when I 191 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,399 got like the next morning. In this moment, as I'm come playing the 192 00:16:30,399 --> 00:16:33,000 social chair and trying to get him to help to him, he's putting in 193 00:16:33,039 --> 00:16:36,879 the group chat, nobody listened to Cordel. He's insane and he always gets 194 00:16:36,879 --> 00:16:42,000 like this, and the message I got twenty eight likes. I was told 195 00:16:42,039 --> 00:16:45,320 by a couple of people that I was just trying to leave and the bus 196 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,480 was coming in like five minutes or so, so I had left, just 197 00:16:51,039 --> 00:16:53,360 gone on the bus with them, and I was told, don't worry, 198 00:16:53,399 --> 00:16:56,440 it's all gonna be okay. And I was just I was very worried. 199 00:16:56,759 --> 00:17:03,480 I was I was my worries. We're not going away anytimes. Flanagin reports 200 00:17:03,519 --> 00:17:07,039 that after Cordel leaves, the pledge master comes into the room, looks at 201 00:17:07,039 --> 00:17:11,400 Tim and slaps him in the face three times. Tim does not respond. 202 00:17:12,559 --> 00:17:18,680 Then another brother with an open hand strikes Tim on the abdomen, where the 203 00:17:18,759 --> 00:17:22,960 bruise has bloomed. This hit maybe one of the reasons the forensic pathologists will 204 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:30,079 find that Tim spleen was not just lacerated but shattered. Still, Tim does 205 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,039 not wake up. Forty five minutes later, Tim rolls onto the floor. 206 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,880 The heavy backpack is still strapped to him. He attempts to stand up and 207 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:42,640 manages to free himself from the backpack, which falls to the floor, but 208 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:47,599 the effort is too much and he falls backwards, banging his head on the 209 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:52,279 hardwood floor. A frat member shakes him, gets no response, and walks 210 00:17:52,279 --> 00:17:59,680 away. It's early in the morning of February third. Now the social has 211 00:17:59,759 --> 00:18:03,519 ended. At three forty six in the morning, Tim is on the floor, 212 00:18:03,759 --> 00:18:08,519 curled up in the fetal position at home in New Jersey. His parents 213 00:18:08,519 --> 00:18:14,799 are sleeping across campus. His older brother Mike, has no idea that Tim 214 00:18:14,839 --> 00:18:18,799 is not safely in his bed. At three forty nine, Tim wakes up 215 00:18:18,839 --> 00:18:23,400 and struggles to his knees, cradling his head in his hands. He falls 216 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,720 again to the hardwood floor. An hour later, he manages to stand up 217 00:18:27,759 --> 00:18:33,039 and staggers towards the front door, but within seconds he falls head first into 218 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:38,319 an iron railing and then onto the floor. He stands once again and tries 219 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,759 to get to the door. His only hope is to get out of this 220 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:48,319 house, but he falls head first once again. At five oh eight, 221 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,680 Tim is on his knees, his wounded head buried in his hands. Around 222 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:57,640 campus, people are beginning to wake up. The cafeteria workers are brewing coffee, 223 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:03,359 Athletes are rising for early practices. It's cold and still dark, but 224 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:10,519 the day is beginning. Tim is dying inside the Beta house. Some fraternity 225 00:19:10,519 --> 00:19:12,920 members head off to class, and in the fullness of time they return. 226 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,559 At about ten am, A brother arrives to the house and asks the pledge. 227 00:19:18,559 --> 00:19:23,559 A question to both of them seems like a casual one. Whatever happened 228 00:19:23,559 --> 00:19:29,720 to that pledge who fell down the stairs of the party. They come across 229 00:19:29,799 --> 00:19:33,599 Tim's shoes and realize that Tim must still be somewhere in the house, so 230 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:38,319 they look for him. The search reveals him collapse behind one of the bars 231 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,359 in the basement. He is lying on his back with his arms tight at 232 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:48,799 his sides and his hands gripped in fists. His face is bloody and his 233 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,359 breathing is labored. His eyes are half open, his skin is cold to 234 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:59,359 the touch. He is unnaturally pale. The chapter president would later describe Tim 235 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:04,119 and a text mean message, stating he appeared fucking dead. Three men carried 236 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,640 him upstairs and put him on the couch. Now is when the cover up 237 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:15,640 begins. President Brendan Young sends a text to Pledge Master Daniel Casey make sure 238 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,720 the Pledges clean the basement and get rid of any evidence of alcohol. In 239 00:20:19,759 --> 00:20:25,920 the security footage, Flanagan reports that brothers with garbage bags suddenly appear in the 240 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,680 footage, cleaning up the party and destroying all the evidence. Brothers try to 241 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,920 prop him up on the couch and dress him but his limbs are too stiff 242 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,920 and they can't do it. Someone wipes the blood off of his face, 243 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:45,119 and someone else tries, without luck, to pry open his clenched fingers, 244 00:20:45,039 --> 00:20:48,799 but they do not use their many cell phones to call nine one one. 245 00:20:49,799 --> 00:20:55,119 Instead, one brother uses his phone to do a series of Internet searches for 246 00:20:55,359 --> 00:21:02,799 terms such as cold extremities in drunk person and binge drinking alcohol, bruising or 247 00:21:02,799 --> 00:21:11,039 discoloration, cold feet, and cold hands. Finally, at ten forty eight 248 00:21:11,079 --> 00:21:18,279 am, the brothers agree to call nine one one, twelve hours after Tim 249 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:23,240 fell. The grand jury report includes a deleted text message from the same pledge 250 00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:27,519 that found Tim lying behind the bar. If need be, just tell them 251 00:21:27,559 --> 00:21:32,119 what I told you. Guys found Piazza behind in away bar the next morning 252 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,920 around ten am and he was freezing cold, but we decided to call nine 253 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:41,240 one one instantly because the kid's health was paramount. While Tim is on the 254 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,480 way to the hospital, his brother Mike is still on Penn State's campus, 255 00:21:47,279 --> 00:21:51,599 presumably getting ready for a full day of class. So our older son, 256 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:56,799 Mike was also going to Penn State, and he was a year older than 257 00:21:56,839 --> 00:22:03,880 Tim, so he was a junior and one of Tim's roommates called Mike and 258 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,720 said Tim didn't come home last night. That's not like him. So Mike 259 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:14,799 had the presence of mind to think, let me call the hospital. And 260 00:22:15,279 --> 00:22:18,319 he called the hospital and they said there was an accident. You need to 261 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,920 come right away. So Mike went to the hospital and saw his brother on 262 00:22:23,039 --> 00:22:27,720 life support by that point, and he had to call me. It wasn't 263 00:22:27,799 --> 00:22:33,039 until Mike called the emergency room. Doctor called, I called my husband. 264 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,039 We met at home, packed bags and we were on our drive by the 265 00:22:37,079 --> 00:22:41,920 time. There were the CEO of Beta Theta Pie reached out. They called 266 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:51,960 while we were driving to the hospital where Tim was having surgery, and I 267 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:57,480 did not answer because I didn't want anything I said to be held against me. 268 00:22:57,839 --> 00:23:03,799 We didn't know what the situation was, so I thought it was best 269 00:23:03,279 --> 00:23:08,440 not to talk to them at all. And then they called and they or 270 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:14,519 messaged and said that they were going to fly in the next day to meet 271 00:23:14,559 --> 00:23:19,559 with us. But by that point Tim was declared brain dead and then he 272 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,839 passed away, and we said we're not waiting around. We're going home. 273 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:38,400 There's nothing for us here. Tim Piazza arrived at the hospital with a traumatic 274 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:44,400 brain injury, as well as bruising, internal bleeding, and a ruptured spleen. 275 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,960 Multiple doctors told the grand jury that these injuries didn't have to be fatal 276 00:23:49,079 --> 00:23:55,559 if he received medical attention sooner. The brothers of Beta Theta Pie failed Tim 277 00:23:55,599 --> 00:24:00,519 Piazza and they knew it too. So February second is the bags and this 278 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:06,240 night, February fourth is the day that he finally passes away. And in 279 00:24:06,279 --> 00:24:11,079 between these two intervals, so the fraternity house ends up having a lot of 280 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:17,319 meetings. I wasn't at any of them. And then immediately nationals fly in 281 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,920 and they started saying, don't talk to the media. Bill Cassidy's one of 282 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,160 the big dogs of Beta. He comes in personally, and there's a lot 283 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,599 of people that there's a lot of lawyers, there's a lot of suits there, 284 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:36,079 and they're all on the line of don't talk to the Piazza family and 285 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,519 don't talk to the media. Don't talk to They said, don't even talk 286 00:24:38,519 --> 00:24:42,119 to the pledges. Don't talk to Tim Piaza's pledge class. That was a 287 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:48,079 big thing. Immediately cut off all communications immediately, it was like, do 288 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:55,079 not talk to them whatsoever. There was a vigil with Tim's family there at 289 00:24:55,079 --> 00:24:56,920 the vigil. They said, don't wear your letters. Whatever you do, 290 00:24:57,599 --> 00:25:02,519 go to the vigil, but do not wear Beta clothes. They didn't want 291 00:25:02,519 --> 00:25:10,640 the parents to know and remember faces of who they were. I mean, 292 00:25:11,319 --> 00:25:15,119 there were a couple of slogans, think about Beta so weren't a secrecy and 293 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:21,240 keep your head down. Those words, all of them were very commonly spoken 294 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:26,920 and thrown around in the house in the days prior to him dying and after 295 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:33,880 him dying. After Tim died, somebody rounded up all of the fraternity members 296 00:25:33,319 --> 00:25:40,920 and told them if anybody asks, Tim Piazza showed up drunk, and you 297 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:42,920 know, you can't talk to the Piazzas. You can't go to the funeral 298 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,920 because you'll get put in jail. We know this because a friend of ours 299 00:25:48,319 --> 00:25:55,240 worked with a mom indirectly of one of the members who was not there that 300 00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:00,119 night. So I was told by Tim's mom that the aternity was told to 301 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,000 not go to the funeral. Yes, I can say, positively speaking, 302 00:26:04,079 --> 00:26:07,039 none of them went, and me and myself I wanted to go, but 303 00:26:07,079 --> 00:26:10,720 I didn't have a car, so there's nothing I could do. I know 304 00:26:10,839 --> 00:26:14,240 that I know the chapter president, he said don't go. He was the 305 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,599 one that had a private meetings with the Nationals, and a lot of the 306 00:26:17,599 --> 00:26:22,279 stuff that came from him was really you know, came through him from nationals. 307 00:26:23,519 --> 00:26:27,519 Remember that in fraternity world, accepting a bid doesn't make you a brother. 308 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,559 You're still just a pledge. Only after weeks of hazing do you become 309 00:26:33,599 --> 00:26:37,359 a real brother in a separate initiation ceremony. You know, there's there's a 310 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,559 lot of ancient stories out there where if you weren't strong enough to get into 311 00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:45,440 the organization, there were you just an outcast. So it was like Tim 312 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,279 Piosa didn't make it to the organization, he died trying to get in. 313 00:26:49,319 --> 00:26:52,839 So just his entire family was just became an outcast. Yeah, he wasn't 314 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:57,720 a brother. He wasn't a brother he so it was just good bar get 315 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:02,720 out of our face. So how did you find out that he died? 316 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:10,000 The chapter of Prison put in the group chat that Tim Piazza had died, 317 00:27:11,039 --> 00:27:15,400 and then a member says, wait, so are we canceling the social this 318 00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:22,720 weekend? Six weeks after Tim died, Penn State banned Beta Theta Pie from 319 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,480 ever returning as a chapter at Penn State. They wanted to have this party, 320 00:27:27,559 --> 00:27:33,720 Lucy that was called Beta Theta Bi. So the fraternity house was called 321 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,319 Beta. They to pie, That's what the name of the social was. 322 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,920 They'd never had it, but they were planning. They really wanted to have 323 00:27:41,039 --> 00:27:48,839 this social called Beta Theta bi as like they were. They were the victims 324 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,599 because Penn State was kicking them off campus after Tim died, they wanted to 325 00:27:52,680 --> 00:28:00,279 have a social. So what about those security cameras that we talked about in 326 00:28:00,319 --> 00:28:04,480 the beginning of this episode, you know, the ones that Don Abbey installed 327 00:28:04,559 --> 00:28:11,359 to protect his investment from the brothers of Beta Theta Pi. As reported by 328 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:17,119 Penn State's student newspaper, The Daily Collegian, Beta initially claims that some of 329 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,920 their cameras were out of order the night that Tim fell. That was until 330 00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:27,000 July twenty seventeen, five months after Tim died, when a State College police 331 00:28:27,039 --> 00:28:33,319 investigator was reviewing the house as camera footage for completely separate case. This is 332 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:38,400 how he came across camera angles he hadn't noticed in the piazza case, even 333 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:45,359 though he himself had spent hours examining videos from February second and third. Upon 334 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:52,440 further inspection, the investigator noticed a data clearance message dated February sixth, two 335 00:28:52,519 --> 00:28:59,480 days after Piazza was pronounced dead. This prompted him to check another recording device, 336 00:29:00,039 --> 00:29:03,680 which had footage dating all the way back to January thirty first, twenty 337 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:10,240 seventeen, meaning that all of the cameras we're working the ninth Tim fell. 338 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,200 The deleted footage was eventually recovered by the FBI, and it's the only reason 339 00:29:15,319 --> 00:29:21,480 we know exactly what happened to Tim on that night. Without it, it'd 340 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:27,119 be the Beta brother's words against Cordels. And at this point, when you 341 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,680 start speaking about it publicly, are you still in contact with any of the 342 00:29:32,759 --> 00:29:37,799 brothers Before that happened, they had cut contact off with That's what made it 343 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,880 so easier to take a stand. I I wanted to go back to writing 344 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:47,400 Petsylvania right away. I didn't feel safe at Penn State. I mean, 345 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:55,880 I really thought that I would probably get killed prior to their being statements under 346 00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:00,359 oath in a courthouse, you know, take care of me before for it 347 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,039 gets there, to put their lives away. The easiest thing would just get 348 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:11,039 rid of me. And I remember my new apartment in State College. I 349 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,400 remember looking at the window as on the second floor, and there's in this 350 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,680 community called the Retreat, and I looked out the window. I said, 351 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,359 wow, so much open space. How easy it would be for a sniper 352 00:30:22,359 --> 00:30:25,799 to shoot me right through the window. These things went through my head. 353 00:30:26,079 --> 00:30:29,839 I mean, I had death threats on death threats. I was nineteen years 354 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:34,400 old when this all happened. And there's gonna be haters who say that I 355 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,200 should have called myself, But they're only saying that because I bring up the 356 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,720 topic of well, it's yes, someone should have called. Yes, someone 357 00:30:42,759 --> 00:30:47,240 should have called. I'll be the boxing bag for all that if that's what 358 00:30:47,279 --> 00:30:51,400 it takes to get and make change here. At that point, I moved 359 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:56,359 to New Jersey with my father and stepmother, and from that day on, 360 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,680 I never felt safe in Pennsylvania. It's like to this day, like right 361 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,160 now we're in Philadelphia. You know, I would not come to city alone. 362 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:11,519 Wouldn't do it because the power structure in this city is one of which 363 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,839 that most of the people in power like no me, and like feel that 364 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,480 I'm like somebody who hurt their friend or their feeling or something. Again, 365 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,440 this is a powerful fraternity house where their family members are people in power. 366 00:31:23,599 --> 00:31:29,079 So I felt a lot safer in Jersey transferring to Rutgers, and they that 367 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,640 was the enemy. I was the enemy of the organization. Still to this 368 00:31:32,759 --> 00:31:40,880 day, I'm like the enemy. I think everybody who joins a Greek letter 369 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,880 organization becomes spectimized, and many of them don't even realize that. You know, 370 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:51,640 the hazing process. You're being marginalized, You're being exploited. You're being 371 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,960 forced to go shopping for people and forced to do laundering, forced to clean 372 00:31:56,039 --> 00:32:00,839 the house. This is involuntary servitude, this is this is it's like you 373 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,799 don't even realize what's going on. So, yes, they were victimized, 374 00:32:02,839 --> 00:32:07,920 but then they become the perpetrators themselves. Luckily myself, I never hated, 375 00:32:07,799 --> 00:32:12,440 you know, not something I ever wanted to. But I think if I 376 00:32:12,519 --> 00:32:15,640 stayed in the house long enough, I think maybe I would have been just 377 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:21,279 as bad, because at that point I'd be like, screw it. Yeah, 378 00:32:21,319 --> 00:32:25,119 I can't get my justice, so let's take out my anger on the 379 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:34,559 pledges. Did they un follow you on INSTAGRAMM wondering they blocked you right away? 380 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,119 Yeah, but there. You know what's funny is their parents started following 381 00:32:37,119 --> 00:32:43,559 me on Instagram to spy on me. Back to Evelyn Piazza, were you 382 00:32:43,599 --> 00:32:49,160 ever in contact with anyone in the fraternity's parents? So one of the parents 383 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:55,440 reached out to my husband and said it was a terrible accident. My son 384 00:32:55,559 --> 00:33:02,119 wasn't there that night, And when the FBI recovered the deleted video from the 385 00:33:02,119 --> 00:33:13,200 basement DVR camera, guess whose son was involved. According to The New York 386 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:19,319 Times, the prosecution edited the twelve hours of surveillance video footage down to three 387 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:24,240 hours for the court. While the Piazzas left the room during the video footage, 388 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:30,759 the defendants stayed watching quietly. Apparently they laughed among themselves during a couple 389 00:33:30,759 --> 00:33:37,279 of breaks. You would have thought it was a fraternity reunion, said Tom 390 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:43,119 Klein, a lawyer for the Piazzas. We did have one father come up 391 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:49,160 to us when we were in court. They were playing clips of the video 392 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,920 that they had put together, and we didn't want to see it, so 393 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:59,759 we left the courtroom and one father came out and walked over to us and 394 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:06,920 shoulder sagging, you know, look like he was crying, and he said 395 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,679 how sorry he was. And my husband said, well, then tell your 396 00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:15,079 son to come forward. And tell the truth and do the right thing. 397 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:24,960 And that's where that ended. I was told that I should just plead the 398 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:31,119 Fifth Amendment. The whole time somebody had done and you can't understand that first 399 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:37,320 some slight reason, maybe you want to help his family out. Like when 400 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:43,920 the hearing started with the court case started, my father was in a group 401 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:50,199 chain, a group email with the parents of the defendants. They're just trash 402 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,960 talking to Piazza families saying, why are they putting our kids through all this? 403 00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:58,239 Our kids have college, our kids have class and exams, blah blah 404 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:05,119 blah. Yeah, you just had to laugh because it's so it's inhumane and 405 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,960 it's unnatural, it's uncivilized. After the basement footage was recovered, the grand 406 00:35:10,039 --> 00:35:19,039 jury recommended one thousand and ninety eight criminal charges against eighteen fraternity members and against 407 00:35:19,039 --> 00:35:24,199 the fraternity itself. The most serious of charges, like involuntary manslaughter, were 408 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:31,719 eventually dropped. Caitlin Flanagin reported that Evelyn and her husband Jim went to every 409 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:37,119 day of the pre trial hearings that determined which of the charges would go to 410 00:35:37,199 --> 00:35:44,800 trial. So it was a series of preliminary hearings trying to determine which charges 411 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:50,000 would go to criminal court. And when we finally reached that point, most 412 00:35:50,079 --> 00:35:57,920 of the individuals pleaded guilty to their charges, which might have been alcohol or 413 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:04,239 hazing. There are two individuals left who have yet to go to court. 414 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:10,199 They appealed the old Pennsylvania hazing law and said it was unconstitutional, and then 415 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:16,320 COVID hit. So we are still waiting to see about going to trial criminal 416 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:23,199 trial for two people. And how involved were the two people? They were 417 00:36:23,199 --> 00:36:29,800 the president and the pledge master. Oh wow, wow, do you know 418 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:35,119 when that's going to be Nope? Wow? And so had they just been 419 00:36:35,639 --> 00:36:39,000 living at their parents' house waiting or you don't know, I don't know. 420 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:45,480 But they were kicked out of school, all right. We were not told 421 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:51,519 who was kicked out or not. We were told that six people were expelled, 422 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,280 and you know, maybe some however, many seven left of their own 423 00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:00,159 accord, and maybe some the charges were dropped against them because they did go 424 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:06,519 through the conduct process also, but there were many of them who just left 425 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:12,800 penn State and went to another school before the conduct process was finished. Nobody 426 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:21,199 has seen jail time in a horrible hazing death where there's video. There were 427 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:27,480 four people who if you were not a resident of Pennsylvania, you couldn't do 428 00:37:27,559 --> 00:37:30,719 house arrest, so you were going to have to go to jail. But 429 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:37,280 they could come up with a Pennsylvania address and then do house arrest, so 430 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:45,639 they never had to see jail either. And some people got time served. 431 00:37:46,199 --> 00:37:50,880 One had to go to an alcohol treatment center and that was time served, 432 00:37:51,679 --> 00:37:58,840 and one had shoulder surgery and he was rehabbing, so that was time served. 433 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:07,039 So it's been a little frustrating to see that even with the sentencing, 434 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:15,920 it's still not it doesn't really have the gravity that it should. Yeah, 435 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,119 so it's like they just want to get away with murder. It's like it's 436 00:38:19,159 --> 00:38:22,880 like the show How to get Away with Murder, Like they're living it in 437 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,079 reality, Like they're making tons of money right now. Who's making money. 438 00:38:28,599 --> 00:38:32,000 They are the presidents, the chapter presidents. They're making money. They have 439 00:38:32,079 --> 00:38:37,800 great jobs, huge Wall Street and all these things. So, yeah, 440 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:42,360 they got there. They got their college degrees, and they're making money and 441 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:53,239 they're buying houses and living lives. And I have PTSD. I am overwhelmed 442 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:59,519 easily. I don't get a lot accomplished. I try. I have good 443 00:38:59,519 --> 00:39:07,920 intentions but I just am so scattered five years out and it is really freaking 444 00:39:08,159 --> 00:39:15,599 hard, and it's just as painful now as it was then. There's always 445 00:39:15,679 --> 00:39:20,519 that feeling in the center of my chest, like that heavy weight. I 446 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,559 physically feel it. I've had dreams where Tim has been in them, and 447 00:39:24,679 --> 00:39:32,000 I know that he's not supposed to be there. It's so weird that even 448 00:39:34,159 --> 00:39:58,599 in dreams you can't escape it. So it was alcohol free, but then 449 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:05,239 they brought in the Penn State had athletic football trainer, and he was on 450 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,440 board with having alcohol in the house. It's important to remember that Beta Theta 451 00:40:09,519 --> 00:40:15,960 Pie was supposed to be one of Penn State's reformed fraternities. Beta took more 452 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:21,239 safety precautions than most chapters do. They even had a live in adult. 453 00:40:22,119 --> 00:40:25,159 And we've learned that a member of the Penn State faculty actually lives in the 454 00:40:25,159 --> 00:40:31,440 frat house. He's Tim Breen, University's assistant athletic director. The dead frat 455 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:37,760 boys parents say they hold Breen partially responsible. This individual's job was to be 456 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,239 an advisor and watch over these students. The boy's father said, you had 457 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,119 to know there was alcohol going on. He had to know there was hazing 458 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:51,559 going on. He literally lived in the house and he was the advisor, 459 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,639 and he sat in on every meeting and helps plan the parties and helps plan 460 00:40:55,719 --> 00:41:00,639 how much alcohol was going to come. And he would all to talk about 461 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:06,320 his college experience and how he wanted it to be more like what he had 462 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,199 and before the gauntlet began. On the night that Tim fell, while the 463 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:15,840 brothers were still enjoying their songs and skits, Cordell saw Tim bream at the 464 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:21,960 Beta Theta Pie House. Our house had an interior loft area, so sort 465 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,599 of a balcony looking onto the main floor, which was I believe it was 466 00:41:25,599 --> 00:41:30,039 called the Great Hole, the Great Hall's way. This ritual was and I 467 00:41:30,079 --> 00:41:35,079 looked behind me and I looked into the loft and I saw the Pensley Football 468 00:41:35,079 --> 00:41:38,760 head athletic trainer watching the ritual, and as I looked at him, he 469 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:45,119 looked at me. And after that, after it was over here, she 470 00:41:45,159 --> 00:41:47,199 went to his room. So he was there the whole night on February second. 471 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:52,119 He knew everything that was going on, held the planet right, He 472 00:41:52,119 --> 00:41:55,960 held planet everything. The grand jury presentment included a text between two Beta brothers 473 00:41:57,039 --> 00:42:01,559 after Tim Piazza's death referring to Tim, one of the brothers suggested they should 474 00:42:01,599 --> 00:42:07,880 delete a group me thread quote so people don't get screenshots or anything that could 475 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,519 leak to the media. Tim's idea as a precaution, he lied under earth. 476 00:42:12,519 --> 00:42:15,320 He said he never planned anything. He never he didn't know about the 477 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:21,760 parties, and it's just all flambolliant lives. And he walked by Tim that 478 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:28,440 morning. Video footage shows that he walked directly past him on his way to 479 00:42:28,559 --> 00:42:32,280 work. But I don't get how he could get away with that if it's 480 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:38,920 literally on camera footage. Well, because you know, I had I had 481 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:45,800 a lawsuit against Penn State and Bath in a Pie and the trainer and Penn 482 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:51,320 State called my lawyers and they said, we'll settle with Cordell, but you 483 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,320 got to remove the trainer from the case. You can't sue him anymore. 484 00:42:54,360 --> 00:43:00,320 It was Yeah, so there was this weird protection with the trainer from Penn 485 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:06,440 State. Probably with the judges too. You know, again, this is 486 00:43:06,559 --> 00:43:10,920 Penn State. All the judges are just they're connected with Penn State. Right, 487 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,880 It's like a judge and State College as a Penn State judge, just 488 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:20,000 like they're not for the people. A real yeah. It's like it's a 489 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:27,840 yeah, it's a puppet. Penn State continued to employ tim Bream after his 490 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:34,559 contract expired in the summer of twenty seventeen. According to news outlet Penn Live, 491 00:43:35,039 --> 00:43:38,159 he had a salary of one hundred eighty eight thousand, nine hundred twenty 492 00:43:38,159 --> 00:43:45,039 eight dollars. At the beginning of twenty eighteen, the university took away his 493 00:43:45,119 --> 00:43:52,320 assistant Athletic director position and reduced his salary to one hundred thirty five thousand dollars. 494 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:59,519 He resigned the same day. Tim Bream was never charged for his involvement 495 00:43:59,599 --> 00:44:09,519 in tim death at Beta Theta Pi In two thousand and nine, eight years 496 00:44:09,559 --> 00:44:15,079 before Tim Piazza rushed at Penn State, eighteen year old Joseph Dato died from 497 00:44:15,079 --> 00:44:22,000 head injuries after falling down the stairs on campus. The investigation into his death 498 00:44:22,079 --> 00:44:28,320 found that two fraternities provided data with alcohol that night, Penn State's student run 499 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:35,840 into Fraternity Council aka the IFC aka the little frack government that we've been talking 500 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:42,639 about, sprung into action. They agreed to hire an outside security firm called 501 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:47,920 Saint Murets to perform unscheduled checks at the fraternity houses. They'd show up the 502 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:54,199 parties with a clipboard and note if any rules were being broken. This was 503 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:59,840 supposed to be a game changing reform. They'd never did anything. The only 504 00:45:00,119 --> 00:45:02,480 rule that they had was you could hold one cup. The rule they had 505 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,880 it was that you were earned allowed to hold two cups of alcohol. You 506 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:12,440 had to have one cop That was the rule you had to follow. Sat 507 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,599 Maret's came to check on Beta Theta Pi's party the night that Tim fell down 508 00:45:15,599 --> 00:45:22,440 the stairs. Surveillance footage shows that minutes before Tim fell, two Saint Mauret's 509 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:28,079 employees walked through the first floor of the house. And then they had a 510 00:45:28,199 --> 00:45:36,719 somewhat farce of a security company that would go and check out parties, and 511 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,199 they were there that night. They came, they rang the doorbell, and 512 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:45,800 the procedure was they ring the doorbell, somebody answers the door and they have 513 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,079 to go get the president. So they closed the door and leave the people 514 00:45:49,119 --> 00:45:53,199 outside go get the president. But that gives them time to clean up whatever 515 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:58,559 is going on inside. And then the president comes to the door. And 516 00:45:58,599 --> 00:46:02,239 then they walked through the first floor and that's it, just the first floor, 517 00:46:04,039 --> 00:46:07,320 and then they usher them out, and then that security company, if 518 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:14,760 they were to have seen something that was a violation, should write a report, 519 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,599 and then that report would go to the IFC, and the IFC could 520 00:46:19,599 --> 00:46:23,719 determine whether that goes in the trash or whether they push it up the chain 521 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:30,039 at all. This next interview is with an anonymous frat brother from another school. 522 00:46:30,519 --> 00:46:36,559 We'll call him Tyler. Tyler was very transparent about the effectiveness of fraternity 523 00:46:36,639 --> 00:46:44,719 world so called reforms. Do you think that their inspections of the party are 524 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:52,559 helpful and that the worst thing that they do well? The issue is is 525 00:46:52,599 --> 00:46:57,280 that students are doing this like they're random people from all Greek houses and so 526 00:46:57,519 --> 00:47:00,000 like they basically come to your party, they of a list of things that 527 00:47:00,039 --> 00:47:04,440 we can't be doing, and so they're supposed to look for them and report 528 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:09,840 them. The issue is these rules are never properly enforced. People in their 529 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,920 house do these things, but they charge other houses for them, and so 530 00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,760 it's a massive double standard because it's basically the people who are on our IFC 531 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,400 board their houses are basically don't get in trouble, and the houses that aren't 532 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:29,440 usually end up taking the blame unless they're like Uh, I don't know how 533 00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,639 to put it, but like there are also houses here that like can't really 534 00:47:32,639 --> 00:47:38,079 get kicked off campus, Like they have like a layer of protection because of 535 00:47:38,119 --> 00:47:43,639 who their alumni are. They're like a house got in trouble for underage drinking, 536 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,960 which while yes, it's against the law, Like if you are expecting 537 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:52,760 fraternity houses to throw parties under your rules, you know that people are going 538 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:57,400 to drink under twenty one. There's we were always we're always like I don't 539 00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,519 want to say, on our toes, but it's the reality is situation, 540 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,880 and so like yeah, like it's just like we kind of I don't want 541 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:07,760 to say, have a contingency plan, but like we're always kind of on 542 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:14,719 our toes and like ready to butt. And usually it's just like I don't 543 00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:19,920 want to say it's hopeless to fight back, but it really is. Because 544 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:27,239 like the j board that you go to for IFC is very much cankrew court 545 00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:31,800 in a sense that there's no, it's not really illegal proceeding. You're you're 546 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:38,599 only involved with students. Remember, Fraternity World prefers to handle matters internally. 547 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:45,519 The main goal of these kangaroo courts is to provide the illusion of authority, 548 00:48:45,079 --> 00:48:57,119 not any real consequences. So like usually the Office of Students, it's like 549 00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:01,920 it's called os R R OFF I don't know, but basically they're like it's 550 00:49:02,079 --> 00:49:07,440 some sort of student organization that deals with all student conduct, right, and 551 00:49:07,519 --> 00:49:13,280 so they will go over and they basically gather evidence and then it goes to 552 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:22,079 IFC got it. And so that gathering of evidence is mostly done Like so 553 00:49:22,079 --> 00:49:25,639 they're like interview people who are there that night. That is done by people 554 00:49:25,639 --> 00:49:30,840 who are adults. So is the goal then to not get to OSRR? 555 00:49:30,679 --> 00:49:36,679 Their goal is to like not have yeah, pretty much. Yeah, And 556 00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,360 so like we there's like certain things that once they happen, you know what's 557 00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,880 going straight to OSR. It's like we said, calling an ambulance straight to 558 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:50,000 OSSR OSSR, and like we know that they will be investigating for that. 559 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:57,760 Do you think that that might deter people from calling an ambulance when one might 560 00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,039 be needed. So one of the issues is at the phrase that they say 561 00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:07,960 is you will be safe if you call an ambulance for someone. But not 562 00:50:08,159 --> 00:50:13,840 right now. Tyler's recording this interview in his frat house. That was his 563 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:17,360 frat brother knocking one of the phrases they say is you will be saved if 564 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:23,280 you call an ambulance. But what's not included in that is your organization will 565 00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:29,679 not be safe. And so what will happen is that people will be afraid 566 00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,719 to call an ambulance because although they won't get in any trouble personally, their 567 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:40,639 organization can get in trouble. I originally planned to dedicate a portion of this 568 00:50:40,679 --> 00:50:47,159 episode depend State's reforms after Tim's death, but truthfully, I don't think they 569 00:50:47,199 --> 00:50:52,599 matter because from what I've heard, they don't seem to be working anyway, 570 00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:57,119 and I don't think you can reform away the problems we've illustrated in this series 571 00:50:57,199 --> 00:51:02,039 so far. This next interview is with Lauren, who attended Penn State shortly 572 00:51:02,119 --> 00:51:07,880 after Tim's death. I mean, I know people who were in fraternities and 573 00:51:07,119 --> 00:51:13,199 when they were going through their new member period or pledging, whatever phrase they 574 00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:20,639 want to call it, situations where people were brutally I mean they were brutalized. 575 00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:22,960 There were guys who were being thrown down the stairs. There were guys 576 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:29,039 who were being forced to stay up all night, being forced to drink excessive 577 00:51:29,079 --> 00:51:31,039 amounts of alcohol. But I mean it was sort of just like kind of 578 00:51:31,159 --> 00:51:39,639 understood that when freshman or sophomore boys showed up to class with broken arms or 579 00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:47,000 broken legs or something, you don't ask questions because it's hazing, and they 580 00:51:47,079 --> 00:51:53,719 are held to such a high level of like secrecy, and it's just it's 581 00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:59,280 insane to me that you can lose somebody, it can shake your campus to 582 00:51:59,559 --> 00:52:02,719 its core, or which it should, and things can still continue on just 583 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:08,760 the way they were before, but just quieter and sneakier. That's why I 584 00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:14,239 don't think it's worth it to talk about the reforms. Google them yourself if 585 00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:19,280 you want, because this ship still happens on college campuses, and it's not 586 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:24,679 just Penn State. Twenty was the first time in sixty years that there wasn't 587 00:52:24,679 --> 00:52:30,159 a hazing related death in the US, and that's only because students weren't on 588 00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:37,840 campus. Frats weren't on campus. You can't reform this system. This is 589 00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:42,800 Eric Barron, the president of Penn State, right after Tim Piazza's death, 590 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,679 And my question is is this a wake up call for Penn State University? 591 00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:52,199 Are you willing to acknowledge so that whatever the university was doing to govern this 592 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:59,840 fraternity and all fraternities. It hasn't been enough. So I would say this 593 00:53:00,119 --> 00:53:05,719 is very clearly a national problem. We've had tens of deaths across the nation. 594 00:53:06,039 --> 00:53:10,199 We have university president, large, small, private, public trying to 595 00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:16,960 deal with this problem. You know that if you have a society which is 596 00:53:17,079 --> 00:53:24,360 secret, which from all outward appearances, is incredibly positive. These brothers signed 597 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:30,119 a pledge that if they were caught drinking they would be expelled. They had 598 00:53:30,199 --> 00:53:36,440 faculty advisors, they had a beautiful house, they had cameras, there were 599 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,400 no external parties. We would have said this was a model fraternity. But 600 00:53:39,599 --> 00:53:45,039 if behind closed doors a group of people are willing to band together, keep 601 00:53:45,119 --> 00:53:53,960 something secret, not tell anyone, how is it that universities can manage to 602 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:58,760 deal with a situation like that. It's private property, it's a private house. 603 00:53:59,119 --> 00:54:00,480 But I will tell you this, We're not going to give up until 604 00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:05,559 we either solve the problem or shut down every house that's out there. It's 605 00:54:05,599 --> 00:54:08,480 a problem, no question, and it's a difficult position for someone in your 606 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,840 role. However, I think there are a lot of people who are sitting 607 00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,360 there and thinking, wait a minute, the university has just turned a blind 608 00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:19,199 eye. They know what really goes on in these fraternities and they allow it. 609 00:54:20,159 --> 00:54:23,840 Okay, So we have been working on this for more than a decade. 610 00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:30,119 We begin with a lot of educational programs, then mandatory educational programs, 611 00:54:30,519 --> 00:54:37,599 then response programs if we had an incident. Then we worked on team approaches 612 00:54:38,079 --> 00:54:44,480 to get everybody involved, all the partners involved. Then we go to a 613 00:54:44,599 --> 00:54:50,320 task force that looks at mechanisms where we can see something happening ahead of time. 614 00:54:51,079 --> 00:54:54,559 But the only real tool we have in the toolbox is to take away 615 00:54:54,599 --> 00:55:00,760 the recognition for house because you have to remember that it's private property. It's 616 00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:07,320 a private house, it's privately managed, it has a national organization that is 617 00:55:07,519 --> 00:55:10,480 involved there, it has alumni boards that are there. And the only tool 618 00:55:10,679 --> 00:55:15,679 that Penn State has to be effective is to say you're no longer a student 619 00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:22,840 organization. And what was that? Let me play that again. And the 620 00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:28,480 only tool that Penn State has to be effective is to say you're no longer 621 00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:32,639 a student organization. And he just said it himself. No university reform has 622 00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:39,039 successfully prevented hazing in greek life. They've tried everything. The only tool the 623 00:55:39,199 --> 00:55:46,519 university has that's effective is to say you're no longer a student organization, so 624 00:55:46,639 --> 00:56:08,559 say it. This episode was written, recorded, produced, and edited by 625 00:56:08,599 --> 00:56:17,440 myself, Lucy Taylor, scriptwriter and production supervisor, Megan Thompson, audio engineer 626 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:24,840 Niel Gottlia. Special thank you to Evelyn Piazza and Cordell Davis for participating in 627 00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:30,199 this episode. To stay in the loop with Snapped, you can join our 628 00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:35,719 email list at snaps the podcast dot com or follow us on Instagram or TikTok 629 00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:39,079 at snaps the Podcast. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see 630 00:56:39,079 --> 00:56:47,320 you next Wednesday for the season finale of Snapped. To listen to the finale, 631 00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:53,800 now, join us on Patreon dot com, slash Snapped and become a dismantler today