1 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,879 Welcome to episode eighty one of Get Out Alive, a bi weekly podcast about 2 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,480 animal tacks, why they happen, and how we can avoid them. I'm 3 00:00:22,519 --> 00:00:28,440 your host, Ashley, and I'm your guest host, Nick my guest. 4 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:34,439 I'm the guest. Hello, welcome back. Thanks. I'm sure you've gotten 5 00:00:34,439 --> 00:00:36,079 a lot of listeners to the last time I was on. Do you want 6 00:00:36,079 --> 00:00:41,799 to explain my animal expertise to the audience? Would you like to explain your 7 00:00:41,799 --> 00:00:44,399 expertise or lack there? Yeah? I have not No, I'm just a 8 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:49,439 dude. I'm just making Oh we did this together. There's been plenty of 9 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,799 people who've been like, where's Nick? Please bring Nick back? And I 10 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,799 know that it I feel like I explained it at least one time. Maybe 11 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,960 that it's just it's a lot. You work a lot, and you work 12 00:01:00,119 --> 00:01:03,359 rough hours and it's a lot of work to do this. Yeah. Yeah, 13 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:04,480 no, it was. It was a bit. It was a lot. 14 00:01:04,599 --> 00:01:10,719 So life is simpler now. Yeah, that's cool for you still tired 15 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,920 of shit? Great? So this episode was voted on by patrons at patreon 16 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,359 dot com, and they specifically requested that Nick be back for this because we're 17 00:01:19,359 --> 00:01:23,200 talking about chimps, and that is our thing. I'm always down hate. 18 00:01:23,359 --> 00:01:29,200 Yeah, we specifically hate chimps, so it only was fitting. And if 19 00:01:29,239 --> 00:01:33,319 you want to add free episodes, bonus episodes, or gifts which are being 20 00:01:33,359 --> 00:01:37,280 sent out this week, join us on Patreon. That's it. Is that 21 00:01:37,359 --> 00:01:40,079 the gift that I got? Yeah, yes, you forgot one. It's 22 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,000 yeah, enjoy it. Pretty nice and perfectly time for this time of year. 23 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,000 All right, So nick this is a new thing since you've last been 24 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,079 here. So we used to do the Patreon shout outs for like new Expert 25 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:56,079 Survivalists, and now instead we are reading reviews. Oh my god, I 26 00:01:56,159 --> 00:01:59,879 love it, Nicko. Would you like to hit us with a review? 27 00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:04,920 So this is from Frustrated with Twitter on Apple Podcasts. Apparently that's the user 28 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,639 name, is what I'm being told the review is guess introducing their pronouns exhausting, 29 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:14,159 better after the male host left. Thanks for that, appreciate it. 30 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:22,080 Don't quite understand the the correlation there, how they guess introduce themselves introducing their 31 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,360 pronouns is exhausting and then better after the male host left. I feel like 32 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,599 I'm the other end of that spectrum. I don't quite understand this. Also, 33 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,240 if you've listened for long enough to hear enough guests say their pronouns, 34 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,439 which, first of all, I ask them to. I ask everyone to 35 00:02:35,479 --> 00:02:38,759 say their pronouns, because I think it's as basic as like you saying your 36 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:43,000 name, and just it's so funny that they're like pronouns are exhausting. Can't 37 00:02:43,039 --> 00:02:46,840 be challenged to remember the male host name though he's just a dude. So 38 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,759 if you listen long enough to know the pronouns but not Nick's name, if 39 00:02:50,759 --> 00:02:53,280 I could just be like serious about it for like one second, because this 40 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:58,919 specifically bothered me with everything going on in the world right now between like Israel 41 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,719 bombing Palestine and the war still happening in Ukraine, and we're talking about Africa 42 00:03:02,719 --> 00:03:07,639 in this episode and there's literally still children sold into slavery in Africa, And 43 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:09,639 the thing that exhausts you to the point that you have to go tell people 44 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:15,319 about it is hearing one second of audio people introducing themselves like that is the 45 00:03:15,319 --> 00:03:17,639 thing that gets you. But you aren't exhausted enough that you can take the 46 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:22,479 time to write a review about it. What a privilege. Moving on, 47 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,599 we appreciate it. Yeah, And if you'd like to leave a five star 48 00:03:25,719 --> 00:03:31,240 review in say nice Things, do it we appreciate? Oh yea, I 49 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:35,080 think it was three out of five. It was three. Yeah it's bad, 50 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,159 which I was like, I can't not have you read that review because 51 00:03:38,159 --> 00:03:42,000 it just popped up and it was very funny. All right. Anyways, 52 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:46,520 So if you have not heard episode fourteen of this podcast, we in that 53 00:03:46,599 --> 00:03:51,639 episode discussed the story of Travis the pet chimp fucking wild one. Yeah. 54 00:03:51,639 --> 00:03:54,199 That was like one of the most brutal episodes I think we've ever had probably 55 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:59,719 Yeah. Yeah, so definitely listening to that one if you want context as 56 00:03:59,759 --> 00:04:02,560 to chimps horrify us. That is like the story that made me not like 57 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,639 chimpanzees or not want to be around them. I think it's like a better 58 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:10,120 phrasing from like when we're kids. Like that was a well known one, 59 00:04:10,199 --> 00:04:13,960 So that wasn't just like a sense of podcast that's like been my micro life 60 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,399 growing up. Have not liked chimps? No, same, Yeah that was 61 00:04:16,439 --> 00:04:19,040 two thousand and nine, that attack happened, and yeah, ever since then, 62 00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:23,399 I've been like absolutely not. So now. Also, I was at 63 00:04:23,399 --> 00:04:26,079 a wedding this weekend. My brother got Mary. Congrats Kyle and Amanda. 64 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,399 Uh So, if my voice is scratchy, it's because I was screaming for 65 00:04:29,439 --> 00:04:35,839 like two days straight. It Okay, So before we even continue into the 66 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:40,399 whole chimp thing, like the attacks that we're going to talk about, because 67 00:04:40,439 --> 00:04:44,600 of the nature of like how strong chimps are and how intelligent they are, 68 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,959 the stories that we're talking about today can be really graphic and they do involve 69 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:53,439 mostly children. Oh yeah, So keep that in mind. And normally on 70 00:04:53,519 --> 00:04:56,680 podcasts, like if we're talking about like one specific species, I like to 71 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,240 do like a little background, and I don't think we've We've never done like 72 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,360 a fully chick like wild chimp episode, So I don't think we've talked much 73 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,800 about like chimps where they're supposed to be, because Travis, that episode was 74 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:11,759 about a chimp in Connecticut, not where they're supposed to be even a little 75 00:05:11,759 --> 00:05:15,839 bit. Just a backtrack to apes, Nick, what's the difference between an 76 00:05:15,879 --> 00:05:19,079 ape and Emma? Oh oh h the opposable thumbs? No, oh my 77 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,399 god, I've asked you this question at no less than five times on this 78 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,399 punch apes and monkeys, the different tail, yes, yes, thank you, 79 00:05:27,439 --> 00:05:30,560 Okay, which one has the tail? The monkeys have tails. Nice. 80 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,360 Yes, there are more differences than that, obviously, but that is 81 00:05:33,399 --> 00:05:39,839 like the easiest difference. So chimps are apes and they are native to West 82 00:05:39,879 --> 00:05:43,279 and Central Africa. And a recent study that came out, which was the 83 00:05:43,399 --> 00:05:46,720 largest study of gorillas and chimps ever, had fifty four co authors from several 84 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,240 organizations and government agencies that I will not list here because there are so many 85 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:55,240 it would take so long. But researchers collected field data during foot surveys carried 86 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,759 out over a ten year period. So it spanned the range of both western 87 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,720 low gorillas, which their scientific name gorilla, gorilla, gorilla, Oh yeah, 88 00:06:03,759 --> 00:06:10,360 super easy, and then the central chimpanzees, which is pan troglodits trogloditis. 89 00:06:10,959 --> 00:06:15,720 Sure, sure, I could say anything and you would believe. So 90 00:06:15,959 --> 00:06:19,240 they surveyed an area that was seventy two thousand square miles equivalent to the size 91 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:23,800 of the state of Washington. Damn yeah, and it included some of the 92 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:28,639 most remote forests on the African continent, and they found that population numbers were 93 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,720 actually higher than they previously thought. However, eighty percent of the gorillas and 94 00:06:31,759 --> 00:06:36,199 chimps that they studied lived outside protected areas. And the study also found that 95 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:41,519 in protected areas, the gorillas and chimps thrived, but outside those protected areas 96 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:46,399 they face capture for pet trade, illegal logging and habitat destruction, and illegal 97 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,240 poaching. And the poaching has become especially a problem because the bush meat trade 98 00:06:50,519 --> 00:06:57,120 has become commercialized. There is still some like subsistence bush meat hunting happening, 99 00:06:57,439 --> 00:07:00,120 but now it's also a thing that like rich people in earth areas want as 100 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:04,680 like a delicacy. Chimpanzee meat is that like a thing. So I don't 101 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,480 think it's like people going out and seeking out chimps specifically, but I think 102 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,560 it's people leave out snares and then chimps happen to get caught in them, 103 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,920 so they just kill them and eat them anyways and then sell it as generic 104 00:07:15,079 --> 00:07:17,680 meat. Yeah, I don't know if I don't know if that's the thing 105 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:25,000 that people ask for, because also there's obviously ginormous zoonotic disease risk because we 106 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,560 share so much DNA with them, So like it's kind of how aid's happened, 107 00:07:28,639 --> 00:07:30,240 and there's things like ebola, and yeah there's a lot, but like 108 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,920 how it tastes that's a more important part, like would it be good? 109 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:40,279 I And like, at what point is it just too close to like eating 110 00:07:40,319 --> 00:07:42,959 a person? You know, No, it's it's not a person. I'm 111 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:44,519 not going to go there, like no, no, no, no, 112 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,000 it ain't. Oh I went the cannibals. But like I just wonder how 113 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,319 it tastes. If it's good, then like all right, like I can 114 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,600 be convinced. No, no, I can't because it's terrible. And we 115 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,560 would never do that. No, never mind, I caught myself. I 116 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:59,199 would never eat a change to growing in learning. It's a bad thing. 117 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,040 We're not going to do. We do not support the consumption of no, 118 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,399 no, no, no, no, no no. Yeah. So, 119 00:08:07,959 --> 00:08:11,720 chimpanzees are still considered endangered by the IUCN Red List and are extirpated from four 120 00:08:11,759 --> 00:08:16,759 countries that they were originally found in, meaning that they were native to four 121 00:08:16,879 --> 00:08:20,920 countries that they no longer exist in. So we are going to end this 122 00:08:20,959 --> 00:08:24,560 episode talking about a pet chimpanzee story, but the majority of this episode is 123 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,920 going to be focused on like wild chimps. So, wild chimps live in 124 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,480 family groups, typically like six to ten individuals, but an entire community made 125 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:39,320 up of multiple family groups can sometimes encompass one hundred individuals, so this is 126 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,720 called fission fusion, which means that they'll break up into smaller groups, which 127 00:08:43,759 --> 00:08:48,000 is the fish, and sometimes those small groups come together to form a larger 128 00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:56,000 group the fuse. Put that together yourself. Yeah, so I feel like 129 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,759 we're both pretty tired. So if the energy is lacking, our beds fernday. 130 00:09:00,279 --> 00:09:03,639 So sometimes leadership in these groups is attributed to a singular male, but 131 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:09,279 other times multiple males will serve as leaders. And unlike many other animals where 132 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,879 females stay in the area where they're born and then males take off, chimps 133 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,120 the opposite. So males will typically stay in the community and then as they 134 00:09:16,159 --> 00:09:20,159 get older, females will leave to seek out like other mating opportunities and start 135 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,679 like new families in different areas. Not true. So according to live science 136 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,799 dot com, chimps are one point five times stronger than humans because they have 137 00:09:28,879 --> 00:09:31,679 more fast twitch muscle fibers than humans, which is good for strength and speed, 138 00:09:33,039 --> 00:09:37,279 whereas we have developed more slow twitch muscle fibers better for endurance and traveling 139 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:43,000 long distances and in general, especially like conversations, you and I have had 140 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,519 nick. I think we think of chimps as like really aggressive animals, and 141 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:52,360 males are like especially known to be aggressive. And this is especially true if 142 00:09:52,519 --> 00:09:56,159 they are like if the males are the dominant ones in the chimpanzee community. 143 00:09:56,879 --> 00:10:01,159 And we've talked before personally, and I think on this podcast about like chimpanzee 144 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,679 wars, where like there are like essentially these communities that will literally go to 145 00:10:05,759 --> 00:10:09,960 war with one another with neighboring communities. Yes, and that is true, 146 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,559 that does happen, but sometimes males from one community will form like a small 147 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,320 group and they will go into a neighboring community to assassinate one specific chimp. 148 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,519 Yeah, so that is the level of like intelligence and aggression that we are 149 00:10:24,639 --> 00:10:28,320 talking about. Oh, is that a hit squad going after people? Which 150 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:33,600 is horrified because they also are really quiet when they move through the forest, 151 00:10:33,639 --> 00:10:37,120 so they can be silent and like literally assassinate each other. Don't piss off 152 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,000 a chimpanzee. And that's why we don't support them being pets. Facts. 153 00:10:41,919 --> 00:10:43,799 So there's also a recent study. This is like almost a little irrelevant, 154 00:10:43,799 --> 00:10:48,639 but I thought it was interesting. So it describes for the first time like 155 00:10:48,639 --> 00:10:56,720 in scientific literature. Chimpanzees killing gorillas? Whoa really so? On two occasions, 156 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,639 a team of researchers in the Luango National Park in twenty nineteen observed a 157 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:05,519 group of chimpanzees coordinate attacks on a group of gorillas. There were two male 158 00:11:05,519 --> 00:11:09,679 gorillas and a group of female gorillas, most of which escaped this attack, 159 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:15,559 but two infant gorillas got separated during one of the encounters and were killed by 160 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:20,480 the chimpanzees. So they were launching an attack at all the gorillas in general, 161 00:11:20,519 --> 00:11:22,840 but it was the infant ones that were killed yep. Which I don't 162 00:11:22,879 --> 00:11:26,240 know if that's any constellation or any less horrifying. It's just kind of wild, 163 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:31,200 like I would I'd imagine grilla really kind of tear chimpanzee apart, fanned 164 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,159 off a chimp, yeah, because they're so much bigger. But this was 165 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,879 especially surprising the researchers because historically there have been a lot of peaceful and even 166 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,200 like playful interactions between chimps and gorillas in the wild, which made these observations 167 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:46,799 pretty groundbreaking, and researchers assumed that it was due to their shared food sources 168 00:11:46,879 --> 00:11:52,320 being limited at the time, so sometimes there are deadly conflicts, like within 169 00:11:52,399 --> 00:11:56,799 those chimpanzee communities that I mentioned, like between family groups in one community, 170 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:01,399 but it's not nearly as common as between neighboring communities. But the worst conflict 171 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:07,679 within groups is infanticide, which is when males, specifically most of the time, 172 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,039 are the ones killing infants, even infants that they may have fathers. 173 00:12:11,159 --> 00:12:16,200 Ooh, and I could not find any sort of writing on why that may 174 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,720 happen. I mean, it's I know, it's like a thing that they 175 00:12:18,759 --> 00:12:24,559 do for other males offspring, for like genetic reasons, right, but it 176 00:12:24,879 --> 00:12:28,960 may puts the mother into fucking pregnancy mode. Again, quicker, it's a 177 00:12:30,039 --> 00:12:33,320 thing with a lions, Yes, exactly, it does happen with lions. 178 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,639 But like you would think, if the chimp was the father, why would 179 00:12:35,639 --> 00:12:39,919 he kill his own baby? And I saw some reports saying like females might 180 00:12:39,919 --> 00:12:43,200 do it if there's like not a lot of food to go around, they 181 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,799 might kill their own baby. But I feel like it's not like a hugely 182 00:12:46,919 --> 00:12:50,120 researched thing at this point, because they're terrifying and they do whatever the heck 183 00:12:50,159 --> 00:12:52,679 they want. Yeah, that's why, you know, how like honey, 184 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,200 badger. Don't give a fuck with that thing. The new thing is like 185 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,759 chimpanzee. Oh, chimpanzee. Never give a fuck, never not never give 186 00:12:58,759 --> 00:13:03,159 a fuck. So, although male chimps are more aggressive, they also reconcile 187 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,600 with others the most. So after a conflict with another chimp, males will 188 00:13:07,639 --> 00:13:11,759 often go back to the chimp that they were fighting with and offer a hand, 189 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:16,159 embrace and sometimes kiss to make up. Yeah, similar to well, 190 00:13:16,159 --> 00:13:20,559 not similar to banobos. So like bnobo's we've talked about, they are another 191 00:13:20,879 --> 00:13:24,159 ape, but they are like the flip side of chimps where instead of like 192 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,159 being aggressive and having a lot of conflict, they mostly love to resolve conflicts. 193 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,440 So like the hippies of the ape world, the hippies, I still 194 00:13:31,519 --> 00:13:35,440 don't want don't want to mess with them. It's all no no, I 195 00:13:35,639 --> 00:13:39,320 all of them freak me out. So yes, agreed. So I feel 196 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,399 like personally for me, I've heard a lot of stories about how aggressive wild 197 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:48,240 chimps can be towards each other. Because there was a lot of shows on 198 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,679 like Animal Planet and stuff where it would talk about like chimps. There was 199 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,879 one specific show, chimp Eden. I think it was I don't know if 200 00:13:54,879 --> 00:13:58,279 you ever saw that an Animal Planet, but it was a guy who had 201 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:03,200 like a captive group of chimpanzees that he would like rescue in Africa and then 202 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,759 try to like make a community with all these chimps that he had rescued. 203 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,840 May have seen something like that. Yeah, I made this specific. I 204 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:13,240 remember like the show that was about like the Chimpanzee Wars or whatever, like 205 00:14:13,879 --> 00:14:16,919 where was like the two groups that would like fight each other and they were 206 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,120 like document the whole thing. Yeah, so I feel like, yeah, 207 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:24,399 from what we've seen on the Animal Planet and documentaries and stuff, we mostly 208 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,039 have seen chimps attacking each other. But I had never, until researching this 209 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:33,159 episode, really looked into or heard much about chimps in the wild attacking people. 210 00:14:33,679 --> 00:14:37,799 So let's get into it. Our first story takes place in twenty fourteen 211 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:43,320 in western Uganda with the Samata family, and I will do my best at 212 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:50,799 pronouncing all of the things that are gonna come up good block. So specifically, 213 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:56,279 we're talking about the Kayamajaka village and the escalating issues they have been facing 214 00:14:56,399 --> 00:15:01,879 with wild chimpanzees. So this village is just to east of Lake Albert and 215 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:07,480 the ruin Zori Mountains, sure, thank you. Within the Kagati district, 216 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,080 and we're talking about the Samata family, who, like the others around them, 217 00:15:11,159 --> 00:15:16,600 had gardens to grow their own crops to feed themselves in this village and 218 00:15:16,639 --> 00:15:18,879 the area in which they live has very rich volcanic soil and they get really 219 00:15:18,919 --> 00:15:22,399 decent seasonal rain. So there are a ton of families on private plots that 220 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,320 grow crops such as corn, cassava, domestic fruits like papayas and bananas, 221 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:31,679 and sometimes cash crops like coffee, tobacco, sugarcane or rice. But the 222 00:15:31,679 --> 00:15:35,279 wild chimpanzees in the area had become desperate for food. There were only a 223 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,879 dozen or so living around this town, and at night they'd either sleep at 224 00:15:39,879 --> 00:15:43,720 the nearby eucalyptus plantation or in the remaining woods at the bottom of the valley. 225 00:15:43,159 --> 00:15:46,679 But because so much of their habitat has been destroyed to accommodate the need 226 00:15:46,679 --> 00:15:50,240 for humans farming, they have had to resort to taking crops from the village, 227 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,720 and because there are no trees left for them within these communities to move 228 00:15:54,759 --> 00:15:58,919 through, they are forced to just walk around on all fours or upright on 229 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,759 their two legs, which often brings them in contact with humans. Terrifying. 230 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,279 Yeah, not to mention that they also all share the same water source, 231 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,000 like they all like the people and the chimps all get water from the same 232 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:15,159 stream. Good. As of twenty fourteen, the chimp human conflicts in Africa 233 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,679 had been growing more and more serious. So in the nineteen nineties, there 234 00:16:18,679 --> 00:16:22,720 were eight recorded attacks on humans by chimps, seven of which were believed to 235 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,759 be caused by a lone male in villages bordering the Kabali National Park. Three 236 00:16:26,759 --> 00:16:32,519 of those children attacked were torn apart, some of them partially eaten. And 237 00:16:32,759 --> 00:16:37,799 because this one specific male was a prolific killer, he was nicknamed Saddam, 238 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,879 and he was finally hunted down and killed after killing his seventh child Geese. 239 00:16:42,679 --> 00:16:48,799 Yeah, but according to everything I could find, Saddam was atypical because most 240 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:53,600 attacks seemed to be like somewhat opportunistic, not repeated specific attacks on human children. 241 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,120 Yeah. I mean this thing was like a serial killer, like, 242 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:00,720 oh my god. Yeah, he serially killed human children. Oh my god. 243 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,160 And then in two thousand and two, at Gombe Stream National Park in 244 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,319 Tanzania, which is the infamous place where Jane Goodall conducted her chimpanzee work, 245 00:17:07,799 --> 00:17:12,440 an adult male chimp stole and killed a child. And then two thousand and 246 00:17:12,519 --> 00:17:17,640 five, back in Uganda near the Bodongo Forest Reserve, there were four recorded 247 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:22,839 chimpanzee attacks on children, with one of those being fatal. So this has 248 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,200 been building to where we now come back to twenty fourteen with the Samata family. 249 00:17:27,279 --> 00:17:33,000 The mother of the family, Netageka Samata, was outside her home with 250 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:37,799 four of her young children on July twentieth of twenty fourteen. She was digging 251 00:17:37,799 --> 00:17:41,599 in a garden and turned briefly to get some drinking water for her children, 252 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:47,160 and she didn't notice the large chimpanzee nearby who had been watching and waiting, 253 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,119 And when she turned her back, the chimp grabbed the arm of her two 254 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:55,359 year old son, Mujuni. The boy screamed, which got the attention of 255 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,240 other villagers, all of whom helped Netageka try to chase down the chimp. 256 00:17:59,319 --> 00:18:03,480 But because of their strength, the chimp gave m Junie fatal wounds very quickly. 257 00:18:03,559 --> 00:18:07,000 His arm was torn off, his head was damaged, and the chimp 258 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:14,319 opened his abdomen to tear out his kidneys. The chimp stashed his body under 259 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,839 some grass, which is where his mother found him, and he was rushed 260 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,680 to a nearby medical center, but died on the way. Why don't know, 261 00:18:22,839 --> 00:18:26,559 I from what just the injuries alone. If it tore out his kidneys, 262 00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:30,359 that makes me think it was trying to eat him. I mean it 263 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,000 tore off his arm, ripped into his at Oh my god. And this 264 00:18:34,039 --> 00:18:37,119 had to all happen really quickly. If she was able to chase the chimp 265 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:42,480 down, yeah, retrieve her son's Oh my god. So after this horrific 266 00:18:42,519 --> 00:18:45,759 tragedy, the family stayed in their home and erected a bamboo fence around their 267 00:18:45,759 --> 00:18:51,240 property to try to keep the chimps at bay. But the chimps would continually 268 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:57,319 come back and stare into their house, and this kept happening over months. 269 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:02,680 The chimps would come back, easily, climbed the flimsy fence, sometimes bang 270 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:04,720 on the family's walls, and just stare into their home. What did this 271 00:19:04,759 --> 00:19:10,759 family do? I have no idea. And this poor mother and Netageka couldn't 272 00:19:10,799 --> 00:19:14,960 garden anymore, and her children were sometimes her remaining children were sometimes too afraid 273 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,279 to even eat well. I would imagine so. Yeah. So, three 274 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,000 years after the death of Mjunie, the family abandoned their home for a rented 275 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:26,920 room three miles away where they had no land but were safe from chimps. 276 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,759 And the mother remarks that, like, yes, we were safe from chimps, 277 00:19:30,759 --> 00:19:33,759 but we essentially launched ourselves back into poverty because now we have nothing to 278 00:19:33,759 --> 00:19:38,039 show for it. Yeah. So the chimps, even after the family left, 279 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,960 continued returning to their old home, breaking some of the windows and just 280 00:19:42,039 --> 00:19:47,839 staring into others as if confused why it was now abandoned. One photographer set 281 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,559 up at the family's old home two months after they left and got pictures of 282 00:19:51,599 --> 00:19:56,240 the chimps returning every day for a week, and they would sometimes bang on 283 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,359 the walls of the home even though the people had been gone, and the 284 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:04,400 photographer it seemed like the reflections in the windows specifically agitated them. So I 285 00:20:04,559 --> 00:20:10,559 have no idea why they specifically were targeting this home and this family, and 286 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,640 there's probably other houses with windows in the area. I doubt this is a 287 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,319 one family. Yeah, that's insane. So as of twenty nineteen, when 288 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:25,200 National Geographic released this story that we're talking about, the attacks continued even after 289 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,960 this family left. So since twenty fourteen, since Majuni was killed, there 290 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,000 have been three more fatalities and half a dozen injuries within this area in the 291 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:40,079 town of Mooho row Row. I'm assuming I'm saying that correctly. I'm assuming 292 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:48,160 not. It spelled m u h r ro mouhoo row row right. It's 293 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,160 better than I could ever do. Thank you so much, so sorry. 294 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:57,000 So on May eighteenth, in twenty seventeen, Maculate Racundo was a toddler at 295 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:02,160 the time and was in a cornfield her mother. As her mother was farming, 296 00:21:02,759 --> 00:21:07,240 a group of chimpanzees grabbed Maculate and took off. Her mother ran after 297 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,559 the chimps, but they intimidated her into backing off, so she ran to 298 00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:14,039 get help. A group of locals and the town police searched for Maculate and 299 00:21:14,079 --> 00:21:17,200 found her in a patch of forest. She was in a pool of blood 300 00:21:17,559 --> 00:21:22,839 and her gut had been torn open and her intestines had been spilled. So 301 00:21:22,319 --> 00:21:26,640 obviously did not survive this encounter. But once again, it seemed like that 302 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,319 all happened really really fast. What the fuck? Why do we have to 303 00:21:30,319 --> 00:21:34,599 do it like so brutally? I know, and so just five weeks later, 304 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:40,079 in an eerily similar fashion, potentially, the same group of chimpanzees grabbed 305 00:21:40,079 --> 00:21:42,400 a one year old boy from a nearby garden plot as his mother was gardening 306 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,799 and made a break for a patch of forest. But this time a group 307 00:21:45,799 --> 00:21:49,200 of villagers pursued and got the chimps to drop the boy, who suffered a 308 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:55,200 deep cut on his left leg but survived the ordeal. But police reported that 309 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,200 there were six other kids in the town that town alone that had been killed 310 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,240 by chimps around them this time Jeez. And then in twenty eighteen, a 311 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,480 five month old was grabbed off of a verandah while her mother was in the 312 00:22:06,559 --> 00:22:08,559 kitchen. And this is all like in the same area within Uganda that I'm 313 00:22:08,559 --> 00:22:12,160 talking about right now. So the mother heard her daughter's cries and made lots 314 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:17,240 of noises chasing the chimps, and they eventually dropped the girl and she was 315 00:22:17,279 --> 00:22:21,359 found unconscious in a nearby bush where they had stashed her, but she survived. 316 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,880 Wow. And then in another instance that same year, a three year 317 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,160 old girl was at a water well with her friends when a male chimp came, 318 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,599 scared her friends off, and then ran away with her. Luckily, 319 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,599 in this case, an elderly man happened to be nearby and managed to scare 320 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,279 the chimps enough that they dropped the girl, and she too survived. But 321 00:22:40,319 --> 00:22:44,000 then again in a nearby village the same year, this time a twelve year 322 00:22:44,039 --> 00:22:47,119 old boy was grabbed by a chimp while he was in a garden, so 323 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:52,359 like significantly older than a toddler now, and he too survived, but suffered 324 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,000 a deep wound to his arm when he struggled to free himself. And then, 325 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,279 oh, my God, Jesus, there's so many more, and there 326 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,799 is a story of I'm not sure when this attack happened either, but as 327 00:23:03,839 --> 00:23:07,920 of the twenty nineteen release of the nat GEO article, she was older, 328 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:12,480 but her name was Teddy attuher who was four years old at the time when 329 00:23:12,559 --> 00:23:15,920 this incident happened, but so she had been four. She was living in 330 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:21,359 the Mukichanga village and she was at the time alone in her home while her 331 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:26,759 mother was out, and a chimp entered her home. It dragged Teddy into 332 00:23:26,799 --> 00:23:29,599 a tree, where it made a gash on her head, broke her arm 333 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:34,359 and mutilated it badly before dropping her out of the tree. So she survived, 334 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,519 but her arm was so badly mangled that it had to be amputated, 335 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,039 and since then, both of her parents have died. Her remaining siblings have 336 00:23:42,079 --> 00:23:45,519 either died or left, leaving her with just aunts to care for her, 337 00:23:45,559 --> 00:23:49,519 and she's had to work occasional odd labor jobs, which obviously is not easy 338 00:23:49,599 --> 00:23:55,880 with one existing arm. No, I imagine not yeah. And the most 339 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:00,880 recent attack I found occurred in March of twenty twenty three. Two month old 340 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,319 a Roho Ahumuza and her family lived in Kagati, which is a town in 341 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:10,680 western Uganda. A Roho was in her mother's arms when a chimp ran up, 342 00:24:11,279 --> 00:24:17,000 pulled her out of her mother's arms, and ran off. Her mother 343 00:24:17,079 --> 00:24:19,079 screamed for help and neighbors ran over to join her and search for her daughter, 344 00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:23,599 and a Roho was found with serious head injuries and was rushed to the 345 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:29,119 Kagati Community Health Center, but unfortunately was pronounced dead a few hours later. 346 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,039 And the town of Kagati is close to the Kibali National Park, which is 347 00:24:33,039 --> 00:24:37,039 home to the highest number of chimps in all of Africa, which is one 348 00:24:37,079 --> 00:24:41,759 thy five hundred and in Uganda as a whole, there was only five thousand 349 00:24:41,799 --> 00:24:45,640 chimps, and in Uganda, chimps are protected, meaning that you cannot kill 350 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:51,559 them regardless of whether or not it is in a protected zone. So like 351 00:24:51,599 --> 00:24:53,200 if it's in a national park, can't kill them, even if it's outside 352 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,920 the national park coming at you. You can't kill them, even if it's 353 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,319 like a self defense something like just sorry, can't do it, yep, 354 00:25:00,559 --> 00:25:04,759 fuck man. So this so there are exceptions to this though in extreme cases, 355 00:25:04,799 --> 00:25:08,559 like that chimp nicknamed Saddam that I mentioned earlier, they gave out a 356 00:25:08,599 --> 00:25:14,359 permit to let him be killed because obviously he was like a serial killer of 357 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,039 human children. So and then also in this area, there are the Bunyuro 358 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,920 people and they are predominant in western Uganda, and they tend to see chimps 359 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,440 as like different from other animals and don't view them as a food source at 360 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,920 all. So you've got like a local culture who sets them apart from other 361 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,279 animals and doesn't want to generally kill them for like any reason. And then 362 00:25:33,279 --> 00:25:37,759 you've got the government telling you that you can't kill them, which all makes 363 00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:41,640 sense. But again, if it's in a self defense thing, like if 364 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,279 it's kidnapping, when you're a kid, you should be able to do a 365 00:25:44,319 --> 00:25:47,319 little bit more, which I don't know these people even had time to What 366 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,839 the fuck are you supposed to do? When yeah, I'm sure so fast? 367 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,039 Yeah, like what do you do? So, as you can imagine, 368 00:25:53,039 --> 00:25:57,519 though, retaliatory killings do occur, or what some claim are defensive killings, 369 00:25:59,039 --> 00:26:03,000 but chimps are in the area still hunted illegally as bush meat, and 370 00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:06,400 like I was saying earlier, often accidentally caught in snares left for other animals. 371 00:26:06,599 --> 00:26:10,920 So in Kabali National Park that I just mentioned, one third of all 372 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:15,440 of their chimps have injuries caused by snares, including one male in the park 373 00:26:15,519 --> 00:26:18,640 named Max, who lost both of his feet. To say, oh damn, 374 00:26:18,319 --> 00:26:22,720 yeah, how does a chimpanzee keep moving around with no feet? He 375 00:26:23,039 --> 00:26:26,920 So there was a picture of him, so in the Natio article I can 376 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:32,039 link it. There was really stark picture of him next to that girl Teddy 377 00:26:32,079 --> 00:26:33,759 who lost her arm. So it's a picture of him hanging in a tree 378 00:26:33,799 --> 00:26:40,000 with no feet and her with one arm. So I'm assuming he just swings 379 00:26:40,039 --> 00:26:44,480 around a lot on the trees. I yes, So clearly no one is 380 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,039 doing like everyone is suffering there like the humans are suffering from the chimps, 381 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:52,759 chimps are suffering from the humans. This conflict between the chimps and the people 382 00:26:52,799 --> 00:26:56,119 reminds me a lot of what we talked about in episode seventy six with Rajeev, 383 00:26:56,559 --> 00:26:59,920 where people in India are not allowed to kill tigers, leopards or l 384 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,759 but they're also left with literally no means to protect themselves. Yes, and 385 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,640 they're either losing their lives or losing their livelihoods and food to these animals that 386 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:14,160 the government is not helping them with. So the Uganda Wildlife Authority knows of 387 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,319 this ongoing conflict with chimps, and despite the fact that chimps outside protected areas 388 00:27:18,319 --> 00:27:21,519 obviously as well as the ones. But then national parks and reserves do fall 389 00:27:21,599 --> 00:27:26,240 under the authorities responsibility, chimps in private forests don't, and they can't do 390 00:27:26,279 --> 00:27:30,839 anything to stop the clearing of these few remaining private forest patches where the chimps 391 00:27:30,839 --> 00:27:33,759 eke out a living and as of now, they're kind of just working in 392 00:27:33,759 --> 00:27:37,279 the area to raise awareness of this problem and try to educate people on ways 393 00:27:37,279 --> 00:27:41,519 to stay safe, so there's no way to prosecute people who are killing chimps 394 00:27:41,519 --> 00:27:45,359 on like this land that's bought be forested. Well, I'm assuming like within 395 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:51,480 the national park they have rangers who it's their job to seek out the poachers. 396 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:56,599 But I'm saying like on privately owned land where forests are being cleared and 397 00:27:56,759 --> 00:28:00,960 chimps live in those forests, the wildlife authority in Uganda can't protect those chips 398 00:28:02,079 --> 00:28:07,440 dam. As you can imagine, this is a controversial topic because you have 399 00:28:07,559 --> 00:28:12,839 cases like one boy named Ali who in twenty nineteen, right before his second 400 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:18,160 birthday, was taken by chimps. The chimps nearly tore off his arm, 401 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,640 broke his fingers, and cut his thigh where his femoral artery was. And 402 00:28:22,799 --> 00:28:26,519 this was just up the hill from where the Samata family lived that I mentioned 403 00:28:26,519 --> 00:28:30,960 in twenty fourteen. So the village chairman, also the boy's uncle, said 404 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:37,799 it took Ali twelve hours to die from his injuries. When National Geographic reporters 405 00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:41,640 spoke to the family, they said international conservation groups come around and try to 406 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,839 convince them that chimps are beneficial to the environment and are good to have around, 407 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,559 but Ali's uncle said, quote, we don't see any benefit. It's 408 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,400 killing our children fair, absolutely fair. That hard to argue with that. 409 00:28:52,519 --> 00:28:57,079 Yeah, yeah, So as it stands now killing the chimps is not an 410 00:28:57,119 --> 00:29:03,759 option because if we start killing endangered species, when would we stop. And 411 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,480 relocation is also not an option because there's simply no habitat left. And then 412 00:29:07,519 --> 00:29:11,279 also you can exactly like mix groups of wild chimps with one another because they're 413 00:29:11,319 --> 00:29:15,519 so aggressive. So for now, there are small projects attempting to manage the 414 00:29:15,559 --> 00:29:21,079 situation, including reforestation projects, alternate sources of income rather than farming, installing 415 00:29:21,119 --> 00:29:23,640 fuel efficient stoves that use less firewood so less need to cut down trees, 416 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,279 creating borehole wells where women and children can safely gather water away from chimps, 417 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,599 and shade grown crops, which if you listen to our Earth Day Bonus episode 418 00:29:33,599 --> 00:29:36,759 on Patreon recently, we talked about a ton of reasons why you should support 419 00:29:36,759 --> 00:29:38,920 things like shade grown coffee or chocolate, and this is another great example as 420 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:44,279 to why, because you could be helping people from being killed by chimpanzees. 421 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,680 So you know, food for thought, that's terrifying. It is that change 422 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,759 your entire whale life to make sure you don't get dot by a fucking chimpanzee. 423 00:29:52,319 --> 00:29:56,880 Yeah, damn yeah, on that bright note, let's take a little 424 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:03,480 break for d Okay. So on the flip side of those issues, you 425 00:30:03,519 --> 00:30:07,920 also have the absolute idiots who, despite these horrifying stories I just told you, 426 00:30:07,079 --> 00:30:11,720 think having a pet chimpanzee is a good idea. Dummies. So let's 427 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,519 get into a recent story from Oregon. Se Yeah, I like this because 428 00:30:15,559 --> 00:30:18,960 we can make fun of these people for being dumb exactly. Well, and 429 00:30:19,119 --> 00:30:22,519 you know, I guess before we continue, Like we've talked about this before, 430 00:30:22,599 --> 00:30:25,920 especially on the rhino episode that we did, But like, I think 431 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,480 it's really easy to shit on poachers and you know, the ones that are 432 00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:33,000 doing it for like commercialized reasons and that are like are wealthy, Like yeah, 433 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,160 fuck those people. But like people who are subsistence hunting for bush meat, 434 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,079 they are often like not able to access proteins. So like, I 435 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,880 understand the need to hunt, and it's not easy enough to just be like, 436 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,319 oh, well fuck those people. They shouldn't be doing this. Also, 437 00:30:47,319 --> 00:30:51,400 it's Uganda. A lot of conflict going on in Uganda, and my 438 00:30:51,559 --> 00:30:55,799 point is it's like not an easy issue to solve because it's like primarily a 439 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,680 human issue and a need for like better resources for the humans, and then 440 00:30:59,839 --> 00:31:03,039 the chimps are just like an added problem. But then the chimps are also 441 00:31:03,119 --> 00:31:07,200 facing their own problems because the humans. So it's not easy to fix. 442 00:31:07,319 --> 00:31:10,799 And so it all sucks, is what you're saying. It all sucks, 443 00:31:10,839 --> 00:31:12,400 and it seems like people are doing the best they can with what they got. 444 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,839 But right now, I think the big push is just to make people 445 00:31:15,839 --> 00:31:18,359 in the area aware of ways that you can like mitigate the conflicts with chimps. 446 00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:22,920 But I also don't blame the people for not liking the chimps that are 447 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,400 killing their children. No, and we've said that about damn near every animal 448 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,640 that we've talked about in this show. Like yeah, people who don't like 449 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:30,920 the tigers in India are like yeah, no shit, yeah, and then 450 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,440 the government's not helping you and they're like, well that sucks, but you 451 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,359 can't shoot them. Yeah, sorry about that. Here's you know, two 452 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,319 hundred bucks. Yeah exactly. Yes, you got to have any kind of 453 00:31:41,359 --> 00:31:45,799 like baypack plan, like apology lump sum, like if if you get got 454 00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:49,319 by a chimpanzee. I couldn't find anything like that. Well, that sucks. 455 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,680 But also, once again, Uganda not a very rich country, so 456 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,680 I don't know if they'd even have the resources to pay people who Well then 457 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,119 also it's like okay, well then there's chimps, but there's also all the 458 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,559 other animals in Africa that could kill you. So like, do you get 459 00:32:02,599 --> 00:32:06,519 paid if your family members killed by venomous snake? I don't know. I 460 00:32:06,559 --> 00:32:12,160 mean I would imagine not, but who knows. Yeah, So another issue 461 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,400 that I mentioned briefly up top facing chimpanzees is the fact that young chimps are 462 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:21,839 stolen from the wild and sold into the pet trade. And one of those 463 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:27,160 chimps we're gonna talk about now, Tamra Brogotti, and her family lived in 464 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,759 Pendleton, Oregon, with their pet chimp, Buck, who as of twenty 465 00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:36,279 twenty one, had been part of their family for seventeen years. As of 466 00:32:36,279 --> 00:32:38,480 twenty ten, it is illegal to own exotic pets like chimps in Oregon, 467 00:32:38,839 --> 00:32:44,079 but in some cases pets like Buck were grandfathered in because Tamra had a permit 468 00:32:44,119 --> 00:32:46,319 to own him before twenty ten. And just a note, so I said, 469 00:32:46,319 --> 00:32:50,799 twenty ten is when that became illegal. Travis, the pet chimp mauled 470 00:32:51,079 --> 00:32:53,559 Charlie Nash in Connecticut in two thousand and nine. So I'm thinking that, 471 00:32:53,599 --> 00:32:58,359 like, maybe that legislation happened because of that attack on Charlie. I wouldn't 472 00:32:58,359 --> 00:33:00,759 be surprised. I mean that was a brutal one. Yeah, it should 473 00:33:00,759 --> 00:33:04,319 have happened way before that. Yeah, we never should have got to the 474 00:33:04,319 --> 00:33:07,160 point where you could own a chimpanzee, but here we are. So although 475 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,240 the family didn't use Buck for any financial gain, like they didn't put him 476 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,440 on TV or anything, they just had him as a pet, he was 477 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,880 still known to local authorities and was known by PETA. Oh great, so 478 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,039 local authorities had quote flagged the family's property in their online system, noting that 479 00:33:23,039 --> 00:33:27,000 there was a dangerous animal living on the product can make me agree with PETA. 480 00:33:27,079 --> 00:33:30,000 Are you please don't do that just a little bit, just in this 481 00:33:30,079 --> 00:33:34,720 one instance. I'm sorry. They're not wrong one hundred percent of the time, 482 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,319 just a lot of the time, but in this case they're not very 483 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:43,240 well Okay. So, in similar fashion to Travis the pet chimp, Tamra 484 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,680 used to bring Buck with her into town when he was younger to run errand 485 00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:52,519 so people knew him by name and Peta got involved because, despite the permission 486 00:33:52,519 --> 00:33:55,599 from the state of Oregon to keep Buck, Tamara wasn't exactly following her permit's 487 00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,720 rules. She would allow Buck to roam her ranch and walk around her home 488 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:05,319 like not contained at all, despite the permit stating that the chimp would have 489 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,119 to stay caged, and there are very specific dimensions for what the cages could 490 00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:13,840 be. And there are pictures on social media of Tamra four wheeling with Buck 491 00:34:14,079 --> 00:34:16,840 with her on her property. And there are also pictures which if you look 492 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,360 up this case online, like him eating at their table out of a bowl 493 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,159 with a spoon, him eating Chinese food out of like a to go container. 494 00:34:24,519 --> 00:34:30,239 So he was treated like a literal person. Ye, just like Travis. 495 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:37,119 The pet chimp was also the VET listed on the permit for Buck lived 496 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:42,960 almost two thousand miles away in Missouri and wasn't even licensed to practice an Oregon 497 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,320 I'm sorry, so I don't know how that got out of the government's view, 498 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:52,800 but sure, all right, So Peta somehow found all this out. 499 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,719 And also Tamra was posting pictures on social media of Buck, so I think 500 00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:00,559 that's probably how Peta like flagged that this was happening. So in April of 501 00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:04,079 twenty twenty one, Peta told the State of organ about their concerns and about 502 00:35:04,119 --> 00:35:07,519 the breeches to the permit and said that Buck was a ticking time bomb because 503 00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:12,079 he had so much contact with humans but never got to interact with other chimps. 504 00:35:12,199 --> 00:35:15,000 Sir. So that all being said, let's get to June twentieth, 505 00:35:15,039 --> 00:35:20,039 twenty twenty one. Oh no, which we just passed the anniversary. Oh 506 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,559 yeah. So Tamra, who was sixty eight at the time, was at 507 00:35:23,559 --> 00:35:29,159 home with her fifty year old daughter who is never named, and Buck at 508 00:35:29,159 --> 00:35:31,960 this time was at least seventeen. I'm not clear on the age. That 509 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,239 was another thing Peter was mad about. They were like they lied about his 510 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,320 age in the permit. I don't know, but at this time he was 511 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:43,440 around two hundred pounds. Oh my god. So Tamra has not given details 512 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,440 on what exactly happened that day, but she and her daughter were interacting with 513 00:35:46,519 --> 00:35:52,679 Buck in some capacity where he was like just walking around. When Buck attacked 514 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:57,639 Tamar's daughter. He bit her on the thighs, the butt, the torso, 515 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,400 and her arms, but Tamra was able to get her daughter away and 516 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:06,000 into the basement, away from Buck who was left wandering on his own, 517 00:36:07,039 --> 00:36:10,920 and the nine one one call was released for this case. So I'm going 518 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,880 to edit a little bit so that way I take out her address, but 519 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,960 I'm going to play the rest of it here and we'll talk about it after 520 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:29,480 nine emergency directly across from the Theraf's Department custom the Sheriff's department. We need 521 00:36:29,519 --> 00:36:35,599 an ambulance and we need an armed deputy. What's got my pet? Simpanzee 522 00:36:35,599 --> 00:36:39,480 has attacked my daughter. She is bleeding previously, and the animal has to 523 00:36:39,519 --> 00:36:45,599 be shot. It has attacked my fifty year old daughter. She needs an 524 00:36:45,679 --> 00:36:52,599 ambulance. The ambulance cannot get to her because I've locked myself in the basement 525 00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:57,679 with her. I can't get out to get my own done on the patio. 526 00:36:58,039 --> 00:37:01,760 You're going to have to do a headshot. Okay. Is she bleeding? 527 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:08,719 She's bleeding profusely, and she makes an ambulance. Oh yeah, he 528 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:14,119 got he did her. We've got them on the route right now. We're 529 00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:16,280 sending a deputy right now. Hang on one second, okay, the more 530 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,519 than one because they ate. If the age gets to drop on me, 531 00:37:20,639 --> 00:37:23,760 he's gone. To we're sending, We're sending, We're sending Petalton as well. 532 00:37:24,679 --> 00:37:31,079 There's no I've never seen anything like this. He's got to be put 533 00:37:31,119 --> 00:37:36,280 down. Okay, do you have pressure on the wounds she's trying. I'm 534 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,280 trying to guard her from a two hundred pound age, so I can't really 535 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:45,199 put pressure on it. Ma'am. I'm uh uh. You're both locked in 536 00:37:45,199 --> 00:37:49,280 the basement. Correct, we're both locked in the basement. Yes, and 537 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,840 they've got to get to do a headshot on the ape. Don't say, 538 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:58,440 oh, it's que that comes here. It will attack them. Oh boy, 539 00:37:59,119 --> 00:38:04,199 oh boy. So it takes a total of zero seconds to realize, 540 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,760 oh shit, I fucked up behind in this thing in my house. Like 541 00:38:07,159 --> 00:38:10,880 when they pop off. It takes absolutely zero time to go from this is 542 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,079 my cute cully pet to shoot this thing in the head. Oh see. 543 00:38:15,079 --> 00:38:17,679 That's the thing. Besides the fact that she was like so calm and also 544 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:22,559 sounded like annoyed at them, even though she is the one who brought this 545 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,239 chimp that attacked her own daughter. It's entirely her fault for owning this animal. 546 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:30,960 But like she was so calm. I guess I mean you tell she's 547 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,320 stressing, Like she is definitely stressed. I mean it almost feels like you 548 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,239 can hear like the door rattling in the background too, Like I don't know 549 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:38,840 if you heard that, oh really, And it could have been from the 550 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,480 the nine one to one operator side as well, So I don't know where 551 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,840 this tun was coming from, but it sounded like there was like a door 552 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,519 rattle going on there. Oh I believe that. Oh my god, that 553 00:38:47,679 --> 00:38:52,519 is fucking terrifying. Yeah, and I know, I thought it was interesting 554 00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:55,400 how she called him like the ape. Yeah, like it wasn't Buck, 555 00:38:55,519 --> 00:38:59,159 it was the ape. And also she was like, don't think he's cute 556 00:38:59,199 --> 00:39:00,800 and cuddly. It's like I don't think anyone who's gonna think that. No, 557 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,280 I mean you're calling nine one one for a reason, like that thing's 558 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,960 getting shot, whether you want two or not. Yeah. So an officer 559 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:15,559 did arrive, and there is bodycam footage released of what happens, and I 560 00:39:15,599 --> 00:39:17,639 watched it, so it's available online if you want to see it. You 561 00:39:17,639 --> 00:39:21,639 don't see, it's like not graphic. I mean you do see and hear 562 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,639 him shoot Buck, But essentially what happens is Buck is inside his enclosure, 563 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:31,079 just pacing around, not vocalizing a ton which is very different from the Travis 564 00:39:31,159 --> 00:39:35,840 the pet Chimp, because in that nine one one audio you could definitely hear 565 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,880 Travis in the background, but in this case, Buck was like generally kind 566 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:42,800 of quiet and just pacing and at one point you can like kind of hear 567 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,000 someone talk from the background. So the officer asks if anyone's there, to 568 00:39:45,039 --> 00:39:49,800 which Tamra from the basement says yes, and she sounds like really clear. 569 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,639 So the basement did not seem very far away from this enclosure where Buck was, 570 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:57,320 and in an annoyed tone, she says, I need you to shoot 571 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,400 him. Wow. It's one thing to be like hurry shoot him like my 572 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:01,960 daughter, but she was like shoot him. They get it over with, 573 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:07,199 yeah, pretty much. So the officer did shoot Buck, killing him with 574 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,599 a shot to the head. It only took one shot per Tamra's request. 575 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,280 Good go for her, I guess, I mean, all right. Yeah. 576 00:40:14,519 --> 00:40:17,679 So once Buck was dead, emergency personnel were able to escort her daughter 577 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:22,039 to the hospital and she's recovered since then with the help of physical therapy. 578 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:28,000 But in response to this, Tamra said things like, quote, my daughter 579 00:40:28,039 --> 00:40:30,239 was losing blood. Emergency personnel needed to get to her. There were no 580 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:35,880 options, and she also said, quote, there was no pain. My 581 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,000 beautiful son folded forward and was with God. There wasn't a twitch. He 582 00:40:40,079 --> 00:40:44,239 just went to be with God. It was horrible, but it had to 583 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,679 happen. Okay, so these are normal people, Okay, nothing nothing crazy 584 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,119 going on with these ones at all. Mm hmm okay, yeah, super 585 00:40:50,199 --> 00:40:52,920 run of the mill. And she also thanked the officer who shot Buck, 586 00:40:53,039 --> 00:40:57,880 saying, quote, he sent Buck to heaven and saved my daughter. It 587 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,119 was a horrible thing that happened. For the rest of my life, I 588 00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:05,719 will thank that man for what he did. End quote. Wow. So 589 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,599 the reason I really like this episode tooting my own horn, I guess, 590 00:41:08,679 --> 00:41:15,320 is like we started with people who live around these animals in the wild where 591 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,960 the animals are supposed to be, and these people are suffering losing their children 592 00:41:20,079 --> 00:41:23,719 because chimps come to take and often try to eat their children. And then 593 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:29,679 you have people here in America who think they're cute and want them as pets 594 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,480 and invite them into their home. And if that is not like the perfect 595 00:41:34,559 --> 00:41:38,719 juxtaposition, like these two stories of like how delusional some of us can be 596 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:43,920 sometimes, like that is it? And then where they have no government to 597 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:45,199 help them, she just called Niama one. That is a great point. 598 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,440 Yeah, the people in Uganda have no government assistance to help them. I 599 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,760 mean, they do have police over there that can like come try to help, 600 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,519 like save their children. But yeah, this woman invites a chimp into 601 00:41:53,559 --> 00:41:58,559 her home and then puts the officers' lives at risk to fix the problem that 602 00:41:58,559 --> 00:42:00,039 she started. I mean, my my biggest thing is like they had this 603 00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:04,679 show for how long seventeen years, fourteen years, almost seventeen years. Yeah, 604 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,840 and it again in a moment, just flip the switch, like kill 605 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:13,000 this thing, like right now, that's that's insane. That's insane. Yeah, 606 00:42:13,039 --> 00:42:15,199 clearly it's not an anie we should be having if he can flip on 607 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:17,320 it that quick. Yeah, And like I said, she didn't tell anybody 608 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:22,159 any details of like what exactly led to the attack on her daughter. But 609 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,360 another thing that bothers me with like this story and the Travis story, is 610 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:28,559 like it's never the person who owns the chimp. Yeah, it's never the 611 00:42:28,599 --> 00:42:31,559 person who is directly responsible. It's always somebody else that suffers. Yep, 612 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,880 you can't fucking control them? No, no, I mean, how many 613 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,840 people can't control their dogs and they're domesticated, Like, yeah, so why 614 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:45,400 why are we throwing an ape into the mix As we can control the apes, 615 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:46,559 don't worry about that. Hey you see the new plan of the Apes 616 00:42:46,599 --> 00:42:49,559 yet? No? It is it? Good? I haven't seen either. 617 00:42:49,599 --> 00:42:52,840 Oh we should see it? See it? Yeah, Okay, have you 618 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,400 seen the other ones? Yeah? I didn't watch the other ones, I 619 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,000 think. Okay, well add that to our list of movies. You know, 620 00:42:58,079 --> 00:43:00,239 speaking of apes, there's a there's a monkey door with The Explorer. 621 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:05,920 I'm just saying it's a live action door that you want to watch. Yes, 622 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:07,400 it's the live action door The Explorer. It's hilarious. It's one of 623 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:13,639 the best movies of all time. It's very fun. Uh. And that's 624 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:19,920 us trying to decompress after people being idiots and owning animals they shouldn't. It's 625 00:43:20,079 --> 00:43:22,159 crazy. I mean, I don't get it. Whenever I see like, 626 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,519 I feel like I get a lot of the shit on Instagram where it's like 627 00:43:24,559 --> 00:43:28,440 people with big cats as pets. It's like you, yeah, dummies, 628 00:43:28,519 --> 00:43:34,840 you dummies? Yeah? Yeah. So anyways, that was chimps is there 629 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,960 any any good tips for us to stay safe around the chimps if we ever 630 00:43:38,159 --> 00:43:42,760 encounter them? Yeah, perfect, Nick, So if you're here in America, 631 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,320 don't own one and then you'll be safety. Pretty good advice actionally. 632 00:43:46,039 --> 00:43:50,880 But if you want to go see chimps in the wild, because first of 633 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:52,599 all, if you're someone who lives around chimps, I'm assuming there are way 634 00:43:52,639 --> 00:43:59,000 better resources than me, a girl who lives in the northeastern US, to 635 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,239 help you. I'm sure there are people there who have much better advice if 636 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:07,880 you're living around these animals. But you can go to Uganda and one of 637 00:44:08,079 --> 00:44:13,360 the big popular touristy things to do is go on to what they call chimpanzee 638 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,920 treks, where you go into like Kibali National Park and try to seek out 639 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,840 the chimps. But to do that you need to get a permit from the 640 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,119 government to go interact with them. But from what I understand, the permit 641 00:44:25,159 --> 00:44:30,960 is mostly like to limit time between you and the chimps for zoonotic disease reason, 642 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:37,000 not so much like aggression. Reason. Is that a healthy good way 643 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,320 to do it? Or are we supporters of doing events like that? The 644 00:44:40,199 --> 00:44:45,280 conservationist to me is like I know, seeing animals in the wild or like 645 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:50,159 seeing an animal in person is usually the thing that can get people to care 646 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,400 more about them and care more about their conservation. But in this case, 647 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,239 I feel like we should just lead them the fuck alone. I'm so down, 648 00:44:55,800 --> 00:45:01,199 give them connected pieces of forest, and just like not interact with them 649 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:05,239 more than we have to. Yeah, and just let them be. Don't 650 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:09,199 got tell meat twise I again, they fucking terrify me. Yeah, And 651 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:14,719 I can't imagine that all Taurus are per our last episode Torons. I can't 652 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:20,159 imagine that all Taurus are like respectful and good about being around chimpanzees or gorillas. 653 00:45:20,199 --> 00:45:23,280 So I couldn't find any stories about like people getting hard like Taurus getting 654 00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:28,760 harmed by chimps, because I think naturally, when all is going well and 655 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:32,519 they have plenty of resources, they will just avoid people like most wild things 656 00:45:32,559 --> 00:45:36,679 do. But you know, in cases like the villages I was talking about 657 00:45:36,679 --> 00:45:38,400 where they had like no food, that's what it becomes bad. Yeah, 658 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,679 are there any any case of a gorilla's going nuts on people? Have you 659 00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:46,880 ever looked into that? Besides like Harambe in the Zoo, which also wasn't 660 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,880 his fault rip to a legend had to be done, It had to be 661 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:57,519 done over. I don't know. I didn't look into that well period. 662 00:45:58,639 --> 00:46:02,000 Yeah. But also like I think gorillas in general are more like because of 663 00:46:02,039 --> 00:46:06,400 the social structure of gorillas, I think that they are generally more calm and 664 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:12,039 have like less conflict than chimpanzees. They're more mate mate triarch, the moms 665 00:46:12,079 --> 00:46:16,440 are more in charge the women. The women rule. No, I don't 666 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:22,079 think that as much as like chimpanzee communities, there's a lot of males, 667 00:46:22,519 --> 00:46:25,199 but they're all like competing for the females, so there's a lot of like 668 00:46:25,679 --> 00:46:30,280 sexual competition, whereas gorillas there's like one main male who does most of the 669 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,440 mating, so there's not as much tension between all the males to like father 670 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,360 the most. So yeah, they don't need to be as aggressive. Gotcha. 671 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:42,519 Yeah that's it. Word. Thanks for being here. I missed you. 672 00:46:42,639 --> 00:46:45,400 Thanks for having me anytime. Well, if you want more from me 673 00:46:45,599 --> 00:46:52,480 slash us check out Patreon you get bonus episodes and other stuff. Check out 674 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:58,679 our website gettlepodcast dot com, where you can buy merch which if you're watching 675 00:46:58,679 --> 00:47:01,159 any clips from this video. I'm wearing one of our Orca shirts and we're 676 00:47:01,159 --> 00:47:07,039 gonna have new merch soon with the new logo for that and stickers with the 677 00:47:07,039 --> 00:47:08,679 new logo. Was that a yawn? That was a yawn? I'm so 678 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,440 sorry. I can't believe I just did that in the middle of you talking. 679 00:47:14,039 --> 00:47:17,719 Wow, you're you're not seasoned anymore. No, I'm not exhausted. 680 00:47:21,119 --> 00:47:22,159 Then we'll just wrap up. If you want to find us on social media, 681 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,199 check out the links Nick is and on social media. I never has 682 00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:30,599 no that's good. Thank you to our nope, my he's my friend. 683 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:35,119 Thank you to my good friend and second grade husband, Josh Walsh, maker 684 00:47:35,119 --> 00:47:37,599 into music before. It's true you were in his basement. Yeah wait, 685 00:47:37,639 --> 00:47:43,239 okay, well hang on, Jesse Walsh his brother. We're also in his 686 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,920 basement with him because he was doing audio editing stuff. So thank you Jesse 687 00:47:46,039 --> 00:47:49,119 for all that. If you want more information on them, also check out 688 00:47:49,119 --> 00:47:52,599 our website. That's it cool. We'll be back in two weeks with a 689 00:47:52,639 --> 00:47:57,320 new animal attack story.