Welcome to episode eighty one of Get Out Alive, a bi weekly podcast about
animal tacks, why they happen, and how we can avoid them. I'm
your host, Ashley, and I'm your guest host, Nick my guest.
I'm the guest. Hello, welcome back. Thanks. I'm sure you've gotten
a lot of listeners to the last time I was on. Do you want
to explain my animal expertise to the audience? Would you like to explain your
expertise or lack there? Yeah? I have not No, I'm just a
dude. I'm just making Oh we did this together. There's been plenty of
people who've been like, where's Nick? Please bring Nick back? And I
know that it I feel like I explained it at least one time. Maybe
that it's just it's a lot. You work a lot, and you work
rough hours and it's a lot of work to do this. Yeah. Yeah,
no, it was. It was a bit. It was a lot.
So life is simpler now. Yeah, that's cool for you still tired
of shit? Great? So this episode was voted on by patrons at patreon
dot com, and they specifically requested that Nick be back for this because we're
talking about chimps, and that is our thing. I'm always down hate.
Yeah, we specifically hate chimps, so it only was fitting. And if
you want to add free episodes, bonus episodes, or gifts which are being
sent out this week, join us on Patreon. That's it. Is that
the gift that I got? Yeah, yes, you forgot one. It's
yeah, enjoy it. Pretty nice and perfectly time for this time of year.
All right, So nick this is a new thing since you've last been
here. So we used to do the Patreon shout outs for like new Expert
Survivalists, and now instead we are reading reviews. Oh my god, I
love it, Nicko. Would you like to hit us with a review?
So this is from Frustrated with Twitter on Apple Podcasts. Apparently that's the user
name, is what I'm being told the review is guess introducing their pronouns exhausting,
better after the male host left. Thanks for that, appreciate it.
Don't quite understand the the correlation there, how they guess introduce themselves introducing their
pronouns is exhausting and then better after the male host left. I feel like
I'm the other end of that spectrum. I don't quite understand this. Also,
if you've listened for long enough to hear enough guests say their pronouns,
which, first of all, I ask them to. I ask everyone to
say their pronouns, because I think it's as basic as like you saying your
name, and just it's so funny that they're like pronouns are exhausting. Can't
be challenged to remember the male host name though he's just a dude. So
if you listen long enough to know the pronouns but not Nick's name, if
I could just be like serious about it for like one second, because this
specifically bothered me with everything going on in the world right now between like Israel
bombing Palestine and the war still happening in Ukraine, and we're talking about Africa
in this episode and there's literally still children sold into slavery in Africa, And
the thing that exhausts you to the point that you have to go tell people
about it is hearing one second of audio people introducing themselves like that is the
thing that gets you. But you aren't exhausted enough that you can take the
time to write a review about it. What a privilege. Moving on,
we appreciate it. Yeah, And if you'd like to leave a five star
review in say nice Things, do it we appreciate? Oh yea, I
think it was three out of five. It was three. Yeah it's bad,
which I was like, I can't not have you read that review because
it just popped up and it was very funny. All right. Anyways,
So if you have not heard episode fourteen of this podcast, we in that
episode discussed the story of Travis the pet chimp fucking wild one. Yeah.
That was like one of the most brutal episodes I think we've ever had probably
Yeah. Yeah, so definitely listening to that one if you want context as
to chimps horrify us. That is like the story that made me not like
chimpanzees or not want to be around them. I think it's like a better
phrasing from like when we're kids. Like that was a well known one,
So that wasn't just like a sense of podcast that's like been my micro life
growing up. Have not liked chimps? No, same, Yeah that was
two thousand and nine, that attack happened, and yeah, ever since then,
I've been like absolutely not. So now. Also, I was at
a wedding this weekend. My brother got Mary. Congrats Kyle and Amanda.
Uh So, if my voice is scratchy, it's because I was screaming for
like two days straight. It Okay, So before we even continue into the
whole chimp thing, like the attacks that we're going to talk about, because
of the nature of like how strong chimps are and how intelligent they are,
the stories that we're talking about today can be really graphic and they do involve
mostly children. Oh yeah, So keep that in mind. And normally on
podcasts, like if we're talking about like one specific species, I like to
do like a little background, and I don't think we've We've never done like
a fully chick like wild chimp episode, So I don't think we've talked much
about like chimps where they're supposed to be, because Travis, that episode was
about a chimp in Connecticut, not where they're supposed to be even a little
bit. Just a backtrack to apes, Nick, what's the difference between an
ape and Emma? Oh oh h the opposable thumbs? No, oh my
god, I've asked you this question at no less than five times on this
punch apes and monkeys, the different tail, yes, yes, thank you,
Okay, which one has the tail? The monkeys have tails. Nice.
Yes, there are more differences than that, obviously, but that is
like the easiest difference. So chimps are apes and they are native to West
and Central Africa. And a recent study that came out, which was the
largest study of gorillas and chimps ever, had fifty four co authors from several
organizations and government agencies that I will not list here because there are so many
it would take so long. But researchers collected field data during foot surveys carried
out over a ten year period. So it spanned the range of both western
low gorillas, which their scientific name gorilla, gorilla, gorilla, Oh yeah,
super easy, and then the central chimpanzees, which is pan troglodits trogloditis.
Sure, sure, I could say anything and you would believe. So
they surveyed an area that was seventy two thousand square miles equivalent to the size
of the state of Washington. Damn yeah, and it included some of the
most remote forests on the African continent, and they found that population numbers were
actually higher than they previously thought. However, eighty percent of the gorillas and
chimps that they studied lived outside protected areas. And the study also found that
in protected areas, the gorillas and chimps thrived, but outside those protected areas
they face capture for pet trade, illegal logging and habitat destruction, and illegal
poaching. And the poaching has become especially a problem because the bush meat trade
has become commercialized. There is still some like subsistence bush meat hunting happening,
but now it's also a thing that like rich people in earth areas want as
like a delicacy. Chimpanzee meat is that like a thing. So I don't
think it's like people going out and seeking out chimps specifically, but I think
it's people leave out snares and then chimps happen to get caught in them,
so they just kill them and eat them anyways and then sell it as generic
meat. Yeah, I don't know if I don't know if that's the thing
that people ask for, because also there's obviously ginormous zoonotic disease risk because we
share so much DNA with them, So like it's kind of how aid's happened,
and there's things like ebola, and yeah there's a lot, but like
how it tastes that's a more important part, like would it be good?
I And like, at what point is it just too close to like eating
a person? You know, No, it's it's not a person. I'm
not going to go there, like no, no, no, no,
it ain't. Oh I went the cannibals. But like I just wonder how
it tastes. If it's good, then like all right, like I can
be convinced. No, no, I can't because it's terrible. And we
would never do that. No, never mind, I caught myself. I
would never eat a change to growing in learning. It's a bad thing.
We're not going to do. We do not support the consumption of no,
no, no, no, no, no no. Yeah. So,
chimpanzees are still considered endangered by the IUCN Red List and are extirpated from four
countries that they were originally found in, meaning that they were native to four
countries that they no longer exist in. So we are going to end this
episode talking about a pet chimpanzee story, but the majority of this episode is
going to be focused on like wild chimps. So, wild chimps live in
family groups, typically like six to ten individuals, but an entire community made
up of multiple family groups can sometimes encompass one hundred individuals, so this is
called fission fusion, which means that they'll break up into smaller groups, which
is the fish, and sometimes those small groups come together to form a larger
group the fuse. Put that together yourself. Yeah, so I feel like
we're both pretty tired. So if the energy is lacking, our beds fernday.
So sometimes leadership in these groups is attributed to a singular male, but
other times multiple males will serve as leaders. And unlike many other animals where
females stay in the area where they're born and then males take off, chimps
the opposite. So males will typically stay in the community and then as they
get older, females will leave to seek out like other mating opportunities and start
like new families in different areas. Not true. So according to live science
dot com, chimps are one point five times stronger than humans because they have
more fast twitch muscle fibers than humans, which is good for strength and speed,
whereas we have developed more slow twitch muscle fibers better for endurance and traveling
long distances and in general, especially like conversations, you and I have had
nick. I think we think of chimps as like really aggressive animals, and
males are like especially known to be aggressive. And this is especially true if
they are like if the males are the dominant ones in the chimpanzee community.
And we've talked before personally, and I think on this podcast about like chimpanzee
wars, where like there are like essentially these communities that will literally go to
war with one another with neighboring communities. Yes, and that is true,
that does happen, but sometimes males from one community will form like a small
group and they will go into a neighboring community to assassinate one specific chimp.
Yeah, so that is the level of like intelligence and aggression that we are
talking about. Oh, is that a hit squad going after people? Which
is horrified because they also are really quiet when they move through the forest,
so they can be silent and like literally assassinate each other. Don't piss off
a chimpanzee. And that's why we don't support them being pets. Facts.
So there's also a recent study. This is like almost a little irrelevant,
but I thought it was interesting. So it describes for the first time like
in scientific literature. Chimpanzees killing gorillas? Whoa really so? On two occasions,
a team of researchers in the Luango National Park in twenty nineteen observed a
group of chimpanzees coordinate attacks on a group of gorillas. There were two male
gorillas and a group of female gorillas, most of which escaped this attack,
but two infant gorillas got separated during one of the encounters and were killed by
the chimpanzees. So they were launching an attack at all the gorillas in general,
but it was the infant ones that were killed yep. Which I don't
know if that's any constellation or any less horrifying. It's just kind of wild,
like I would I'd imagine grilla really kind of tear chimpanzee apart, fanned
off a chimp, yeah, because they're so much bigger. But this was
especially surprising the researchers because historically there have been a lot of peaceful and even
like playful interactions between chimps and gorillas in the wild, which made these observations
pretty groundbreaking, and researchers assumed that it was due to their shared food sources
being limited at the time, so sometimes there are deadly conflicts, like within
those chimpanzee communities that I mentioned, like between family groups in one community,
but it's not nearly as common as between neighboring communities. But the worst conflict
within groups is infanticide, which is when males, specifically most of the time,
are the ones killing infants, even infants that they may have fathers.
Ooh, and I could not find any sort of writing on why that may
happen. I mean, it's I know, it's like a thing that they
do for other males offspring, for like genetic reasons, right, but it
may puts the mother into fucking pregnancy mode. Again, quicker, it's a
thing with a lions, Yes, exactly, it does happen with lions.
But like you would think, if the chimp was the father, why would
he kill his own baby? And I saw some reports saying like females might
do it if there's like not a lot of food to go around, they
might kill their own baby. But I feel like it's not like a hugely
researched thing at this point, because they're terrifying and they do whatever the heck
they want. Yeah, that's why, you know, how like honey,
badger. Don't give a fuck with that thing. The new thing is like
chimpanzee. Oh, chimpanzee. Never give a fuck, never not never give
a fuck. So, although male chimps are more aggressive, they also reconcile
with others the most. So after a conflict with another chimp, males will
often go back to the chimp that they were fighting with and offer a hand,
embrace and sometimes kiss to make up. Yeah, similar to well,
not similar to banobos. So like bnobo's we've talked about, they are another
ape, but they are like the flip side of chimps where instead of like
being aggressive and having a lot of conflict, they mostly love to resolve conflicts.
So like the hippies of the ape world, the hippies, I still
don't want don't want to mess with them. It's all no no, I
all of them freak me out. So yes, agreed. So I feel
like personally for me, I've heard a lot of stories about how aggressive wild
chimps can be towards each other. Because there was a lot of shows on
like Animal Planet and stuff where it would talk about like chimps. There was
one specific show, chimp Eden. I think it was I don't know if
you ever saw that an Animal Planet, but it was a guy who had
like a captive group of chimpanzees that he would like rescue in Africa and then
try to like make a community with all these chimps that he had rescued.
May have seen something like that. Yeah, I made this specific. I
remember like the show that was about like the Chimpanzee Wars or whatever, like
where was like the two groups that would like fight each other and they were
like document the whole thing. Yeah, so I feel like, yeah,
from what we've seen on the Animal Planet and documentaries and stuff, we mostly
have seen chimps attacking each other. But I had never, until researching this
episode, really looked into or heard much about chimps in the wild attacking people.
So let's get into it. Our first story takes place in twenty fourteen
in western Uganda with the Samata family, and I will do my best at
pronouncing all of the things that are gonna come up good block. So specifically,
we're talking about the Kayamajaka village and the escalating issues they have been facing
with wild chimpanzees. So this village is just to east of Lake Albert and
the ruin Zori Mountains, sure, thank you. Within the Kagati district,
and we're talking about the Samata family, who, like the others around them,
had gardens to grow their own crops to feed themselves in this village and
the area in which they live has very rich volcanic soil and they get really
decent seasonal rain. So there are a ton of families on private plots that
grow crops such as corn, cassava, domestic fruits like papayas and bananas,
and sometimes cash crops like coffee, tobacco, sugarcane or rice. But the
wild chimpanzees in the area had become desperate for food. There were only a
dozen or so living around this town, and at night they'd either sleep at
the nearby eucalyptus plantation or in the remaining woods at the bottom of the valley.
But because so much of their habitat has been destroyed to accommodate the need
for humans farming, they have had to resort to taking crops from the village,
and because there are no trees left for them within these communities to move
through, they are forced to just walk around on all fours or upright on
their two legs, which often brings them in contact with humans. Terrifying.
Yeah, not to mention that they also all share the same water source,
like they all like the people and the chimps all get water from the same
stream. Good. As of twenty fourteen, the chimp human conflicts in Africa
had been growing more and more serious. So in the nineteen nineties, there
were eight recorded attacks on humans by chimps, seven of which were believed to
be caused by a lone male in villages bordering the Kabali National Park. Three
of those children attacked were torn apart, some of them partially eaten. And
because this one specific male was a prolific killer, he was nicknamed Saddam,
and he was finally hunted down and killed after killing his seventh child Geese.
Yeah, but according to everything I could find, Saddam was atypical because most
attacks seemed to be like somewhat opportunistic, not repeated specific attacks on human children.
Yeah. I mean this thing was like a serial killer, like,
oh my god. Yeah, he serially killed human children. Oh my god.
And then in two thousand and two, at Gombe Stream National Park in
Tanzania, which is the infamous place where Jane Goodall conducted her chimpanzee work,
an adult male chimp stole and killed a child. And then two thousand and
five, back in Uganda near the Bodongo Forest Reserve, there were four recorded
chimpanzee attacks on children, with one of those being fatal. So this has
been building to where we now come back to twenty fourteen with the Samata family.
The mother of the family, Netageka Samata, was outside her home with
four of her young children on July twentieth of twenty fourteen. She was digging
in a garden and turned briefly to get some drinking water for her children,
and she didn't notice the large chimpanzee nearby who had been watching and waiting,
And when she turned her back, the chimp grabbed the arm of her two
year old son, Mujuni. The boy screamed, which got the attention of
other villagers, all of whom helped Netageka try to chase down the chimp.
But because of their strength, the chimp gave m Junie fatal wounds very quickly.
His arm was torn off, his head was damaged, and the chimp
opened his abdomen to tear out his kidneys. The chimp stashed his body under
some grass, which is where his mother found him, and he was rushed
to a nearby medical center, but died on the way. Why don't know,
I from what just the injuries alone. If it tore out his kidneys,
that makes me think it was trying to eat him. I mean it
tore off his arm, ripped into his at Oh my god. And this
had to all happen really quickly. If she was able to chase the chimp
down, yeah, retrieve her son's Oh my god. So after this horrific
tragedy, the family stayed in their home and erected a bamboo fence around their
property to try to keep the chimps at bay. But the chimps would continually
come back and stare into their house, and this kept happening over months.
The chimps would come back, easily, climbed the flimsy fence, sometimes bang
on the family's walls, and just stare into their home. What did this
family do? I have no idea. And this poor mother and Netageka couldn't
garden anymore, and her children were sometimes her remaining children were sometimes too afraid
to even eat well. I would imagine so. Yeah. So, three
years after the death of Mjunie, the family abandoned their home for a rented
room three miles away where they had no land but were safe from chimps.
And the mother remarks that, like, yes, we were safe from chimps,
but we essentially launched ourselves back into poverty because now we have nothing to
show for it. Yeah. So the chimps, even after the family left,
continued returning to their old home, breaking some of the windows and just
staring into others as if confused why it was now abandoned. One photographer set
up at the family's old home two months after they left and got pictures of
the chimps returning every day for a week, and they would sometimes bang on
the walls of the home even though the people had been gone, and the
photographer it seemed like the reflections in the windows specifically agitated them. So I
have no idea why they specifically were targeting this home and this family, and
there's probably other houses with windows in the area. I doubt this is a
one family. Yeah, that's insane. So as of twenty nineteen, when
National Geographic released this story that we're talking about, the attacks continued even after
this family left. So since twenty fourteen, since Majuni was killed, there
have been three more fatalities and half a dozen injuries within this area in the
town of Mooho row Row. I'm assuming I'm saying that correctly. I'm assuming
not. It spelled m u h r ro mouhoo row row right. It's
better than I could ever do. Thank you so much, so sorry.
So on May eighteenth, in twenty seventeen, Maculate Racundo was a toddler at
the time and was in a cornfield her mother. As her mother was farming,
a group of chimpanzees grabbed Maculate and took off. Her mother ran after
the chimps, but they intimidated her into backing off, so she ran to
get help. A group of locals and the town police searched for Maculate and
found her in a patch of forest. She was in a pool of blood
and her gut had been torn open and her intestines had been spilled. So
obviously did not survive this encounter. But once again, it seemed like that
all happened really really fast. What the fuck? Why do we have to
do it like so brutally? I know, and so just five weeks later,
in an eerily similar fashion, potentially, the same group of chimpanzees grabbed
a one year old boy from a nearby garden plot as his mother was gardening
and made a break for a patch of forest. But this time a group
of villagers pursued and got the chimps to drop the boy, who suffered a
deep cut on his left leg but survived the ordeal. But police reported that
there were six other kids in the town that town alone that had been killed
by chimps around them this time Jeez. And then in twenty eighteen, a
five month old was grabbed off of a verandah while her mother was in the
kitchen. And this is all like in the same area within Uganda that I'm
talking about right now. So the mother heard her daughter's cries and made lots
of noises chasing the chimps, and they eventually dropped the girl and she was
found unconscious in a nearby bush where they had stashed her, but she survived.
Wow. And then in another instance that same year, a three year
old girl was at a water well with her friends when a male chimp came,
scared her friends off, and then ran away with her. Luckily,
in this case, an elderly man happened to be nearby and managed to scare
the chimps enough that they dropped the girl, and she too survived. But
then again in a nearby village the same year, this time a twelve year
old boy was grabbed by a chimp while he was in a garden, so
like significantly older than a toddler now, and he too survived, but suffered
a deep wound to his arm when he struggled to free himself. And then,
oh, my God, Jesus, there's so many more, and there
is a story of I'm not sure when this attack happened either, but as
of the twenty nineteen release of the nat GEO article, she was older,
but her name was Teddy attuher who was four years old at the time when
this incident happened, but so she had been four. She was living in
the Mukichanga village and she was at the time alone in her home while her
mother was out, and a chimp entered her home. It dragged Teddy into
a tree, where it made a gash on her head, broke her arm
and mutilated it badly before dropping her out of the tree. So she survived,
but her arm was so badly mangled that it had to be amputated,
and since then, both of her parents have died. Her remaining siblings have
either died or left, leaving her with just aunts to care for her,
and she's had to work occasional odd labor jobs, which obviously is not easy
with one existing arm. No, I imagine not yeah. And the most
recent attack I found occurred in March of twenty twenty three. Two month old
a Roho Ahumuza and her family lived in Kagati, which is a town in
western Uganda. A Roho was in her mother's arms when a chimp ran up,
pulled her out of her mother's arms, and ran off. Her mother
screamed for help and neighbors ran over to join her and search for her daughter,
and a Roho was found with serious head injuries and was rushed to the
Kagati Community Health Center, but unfortunately was pronounced dead a few hours later.
And the town of Kagati is close to the Kibali National Park, which is
home to the highest number of chimps in all of Africa, which is one
thy five hundred and in Uganda as a whole, there was only five thousand
chimps, and in Uganda, chimps are protected, meaning that you cannot kill
them regardless of whether or not it is in a protected zone. So like
if it's in a national park, can't kill them, even if it's outside
the national park coming at you. You can't kill them, even if it's
like a self defense something like just sorry, can't do it, yep,
fuck man. So this so there are exceptions to this though in extreme cases,
like that chimp nicknamed Saddam that I mentioned earlier, they gave out a
permit to let him be killed because obviously he was like a serial killer of
human children. So and then also in this area, there are the Bunyuro
people and they are predominant in western Uganda, and they tend to see chimps
as like different from other animals and don't view them as a food source at
all. So you've got like a local culture who sets them apart from other
animals and doesn't want to generally kill them for like any reason. And then
you've got the government telling you that you can't kill them, which all makes
sense. But again, if it's in a self defense thing, like if
it's kidnapping, when you're a kid, you should be able to do a
little bit more, which I don't know these people even had time to What
the fuck are you supposed to do? When yeah, I'm sure so fast?
Yeah, like what do you do? So, as you can imagine,
though, retaliatory killings do occur, or what some claim are defensive killings,
but chimps are in the area still hunted illegally as bush meat, and
like I was saying earlier, often accidentally caught in snares left for other animals.
So in Kabali National Park that I just mentioned, one third of all
of their chimps have injuries caused by snares, including one male in the park
named Max, who lost both of his feet. To say, oh damn,
yeah, how does a chimpanzee keep moving around with no feet? He
So there was a picture of him, so in the Natio article I can
link it. There was really stark picture of him next to that girl Teddy
who lost her arm. So it's a picture of him hanging in a tree
with no feet and her with one arm. So I'm assuming he just swings
around a lot on the trees. I yes, So clearly no one is
doing like everyone is suffering there like the humans are suffering from the chimps,
chimps are suffering from the humans. This conflict between the chimps and the people
reminds me a lot of what we talked about in episode seventy six with Rajeev,
where people in India are not allowed to kill tigers, leopards or l
but they're also left with literally no means to protect themselves. Yes, and
they're either losing their lives or losing their livelihoods and food to these animals that
the government is not helping them with. So the Uganda Wildlife Authority knows of
this ongoing conflict with chimps, and despite the fact that chimps outside protected areas
obviously as well as the ones. But then national parks and reserves do fall
under the authorities responsibility, chimps in private forests don't, and they can't do
anything to stop the clearing of these few remaining private forest patches where the chimps
eke out a living and as of now, they're kind of just working in
the area to raise awareness of this problem and try to educate people on ways
to stay safe, so there's no way to prosecute people who are killing chimps
on like this land that's bought be forested. Well, I'm assuming like within
the national park they have rangers who it's their job to seek out the poachers.
But I'm saying like on privately owned land where forests are being cleared and
chimps live in those forests, the wildlife authority in Uganda can't protect those chips
dam. As you can imagine, this is a controversial topic because you have
cases like one boy named Ali who in twenty nineteen, right before his second
birthday, was taken by chimps. The chimps nearly tore off his arm,
broke his fingers, and cut his thigh where his femoral artery was. And
this was just up the hill from where the Samata family lived that I mentioned
in twenty fourteen. So the village chairman, also the boy's uncle, said
it took Ali twelve hours to die from his injuries. When National Geographic reporters
spoke to the family, they said international conservation groups come around and try to
convince them that chimps are beneficial to the environment and are good to have around,
but Ali's uncle said, quote, we don't see any benefit. It's
killing our children fair, absolutely fair. That hard to argue with that.
Yeah, yeah, So as it stands now killing the chimps is not an
option because if we start killing endangered species, when would we stop. And
relocation is also not an option because there's simply no habitat left. And then
also you can exactly like mix groups of wild chimps with one another because they're
so aggressive. So for now, there are small projects attempting to manage the
situation, including reforestation projects, alternate sources of income rather than farming, installing
fuel efficient stoves that use less firewood so less need to cut down trees,
creating borehole wells where women and children can safely gather water away from chimps,
and shade grown crops, which if you listen to our Earth Day Bonus episode
on Patreon recently, we talked about a ton of reasons why you should support
things like shade grown coffee or chocolate, and this is another great example as
to why, because you could be helping people from being killed by chimpanzees.
So you know, food for thought, that's terrifying. It is that change
your entire whale life to make sure you don't get dot by a fucking chimpanzee.
Yeah, damn yeah, on that bright note, let's take a little
break for d Okay. So on the flip side of those issues, you
also have the absolute idiots who, despite these horrifying stories I just told you,
think having a pet chimpanzee is a good idea. Dummies. So let's
get into a recent story from Oregon. Se Yeah, I like this because
we can make fun of these people for being dumb exactly. Well, and
you know, I guess before we continue, Like we've talked about this before,
especially on the rhino episode that we did, But like, I think
it's really easy to shit on poachers and you know, the ones that are
doing it for like commercialized reasons and that are like are wealthy, Like yeah,
fuck those people. But like people who are subsistence hunting for bush meat,
they are often like not able to access proteins. So like, I
understand the need to hunt, and it's not easy enough to just be like,
oh, well fuck those people. They shouldn't be doing this. Also,
it's Uganda. A lot of conflict going on in Uganda, and my
point is it's like not an easy issue to solve because it's like primarily a
human issue and a need for like better resources for the humans, and then
the chimps are just like an added problem. But then the chimps are also
facing their own problems because the humans. So it's not easy to fix.
And so it all sucks, is what you're saying. It all sucks,
and it seems like people are doing the best they can with what they got.
But right now, I think the big push is just to make people
in the area aware of ways that you can like mitigate the conflicts with chimps.
But I also don't blame the people for not liking the chimps that are
killing their children. No, and we've said that about damn near every animal
that we've talked about in this show. Like yeah, people who don't like
the tigers in India are like yeah, no shit, yeah, and then
the government's not helping you and they're like, well that sucks, but you
can't shoot them. Yeah, sorry about that. Here's you know, two
hundred bucks. Yeah exactly. Yes, you got to have any kind of
like baypack plan, like apology lump sum, like if if you get got
by a chimpanzee. I couldn't find anything like that. Well, that sucks.
But also, once again, Uganda not a very rich country, so
I don't know if they'd even have the resources to pay people who Well then
also it's like okay, well then there's chimps, but there's also all the
other animals in Africa that could kill you. So like, do you get
paid if your family members killed by venomous snake? I don't know. I
mean I would imagine not, but who knows. Yeah, So another issue
that I mentioned briefly up top facing chimpanzees is the fact that young chimps are
stolen from the wild and sold into the pet trade. And one of those
chimps we're gonna talk about now, Tamra Brogotti, and her family lived in
Pendleton, Oregon, with their pet chimp, Buck, who as of twenty
twenty one, had been part of their family for seventeen years. As of
twenty ten, it is illegal to own exotic pets like chimps in Oregon,
but in some cases pets like Buck were grandfathered in because Tamra had a permit
to own him before twenty ten. And just a note, so I said,
twenty ten is when that became illegal. Travis, the pet chimp mauled
Charlie Nash in Connecticut in two thousand and nine. So I'm thinking that,
like, maybe that legislation happened because of that attack on Charlie. I wouldn't
be surprised. I mean that was a brutal one. Yeah, it should
have happened way before that. Yeah, we never should have got to the
point where you could own a chimpanzee, but here we are. So although
the family didn't use Buck for any financial gain, like they didn't put him
on TV or anything, they just had him as a pet, he was
still known to local authorities and was known by PETA. Oh great, so
local authorities had quote flagged the family's property in their online system, noting that
there was a dangerous animal living on the product can make me agree with PETA.
Are you please don't do that just a little bit, just in this
one instance. I'm sorry. They're not wrong one hundred percent of the time,
just a lot of the time, but in this case they're not very
well Okay. So, in similar fashion to Travis the pet chimp, Tamra
used to bring Buck with her into town when he was younger to run errand
so people knew him by name and Peta got involved because, despite the permission
from the state of Oregon to keep Buck, Tamara wasn't exactly following her permit's
rules. She would allow Buck to roam her ranch and walk around her home
like not contained at all, despite the permit stating that the chimp would have
to stay caged, and there are very specific dimensions for what the cages could
be. And there are pictures on social media of Tamra four wheeling with Buck
with her on her property. And there are also pictures which if you look
up this case online, like him eating at their table out of a bowl
with a spoon, him eating Chinese food out of like a to go container.
So he was treated like a literal person. Ye, just like Travis.
The pet chimp was also the VET listed on the permit for Buck lived
almost two thousand miles away in Missouri and wasn't even licensed to practice an Oregon
I'm sorry, so I don't know how that got out of the government's view,
but sure, all right, So Peta somehow found all this out.
And also Tamra was posting pictures on social media of Buck, so I think
that's probably how Peta like flagged that this was happening. So in April of
twenty twenty one, Peta told the State of organ about their concerns and about
the breeches to the permit and said that Buck was a ticking time bomb because
he had so much contact with humans but never got to interact with other chimps.
Sir. So that all being said, let's get to June twentieth,
twenty twenty one. Oh no, which we just passed the anniversary. Oh
yeah. So Tamra, who was sixty eight at the time, was at
home with her fifty year old daughter who is never named, and Buck at
this time was at least seventeen. I'm not clear on the age. That
was another thing Peter was mad about. They were like they lied about his
age in the permit. I don't know, but at this time he was
around two hundred pounds. Oh my god. So Tamra has not given details
on what exactly happened that day, but she and her daughter were interacting with
Buck in some capacity where he was like just walking around. When Buck attacked
Tamar's daughter. He bit her on the thighs, the butt, the torso,
and her arms, but Tamra was able to get her daughter away and
into the basement, away from Buck who was left wandering on his own,
and the nine one one call was released for this case. So I'm going
to edit a little bit so that way I take out her address, but
I'm going to play the rest of it here and we'll talk about it after
nine emergency directly across from the Theraf's Department custom the Sheriff's department. We need
an ambulance and we need an armed deputy. What's got my pet? Simpanzee
has attacked my daughter. She is bleeding previously, and the animal has to
be shot. It has attacked my fifty year old daughter. She needs an
ambulance. The ambulance cannot get to her because I've locked myself in the basement
with her. I can't get out to get my own done on the patio.
You're going to have to do a headshot. Okay. Is she bleeding?
She's bleeding profusely, and she makes an ambulance. Oh yeah, he
got he did her. We've got them on the route right now. We're
sending a deputy right now. Hang on one second, okay, the more
than one because they ate. If the age gets to drop on me,
he's gone. To we're sending, We're sending, We're sending Petalton as well.
There's no I've never seen anything like this. He's got to be put
down. Okay, do you have pressure on the wounds she's trying. I'm
trying to guard her from a two hundred pound age, so I can't really
put pressure on it. Ma'am. I'm uh uh. You're both locked in
the basement. Correct, we're both locked in the basement. Yes, and
they've got to get to do a headshot on the ape. Don't say,
oh, it's que that comes here. It will attack them. Oh boy,
oh boy. So it takes a total of zero seconds to realize,
oh shit, I fucked up behind in this thing in my house. Like
when they pop off. It takes absolutely zero time to go from this is
my cute cully pet to shoot this thing in the head. Oh see.
That's the thing. Besides the fact that she was like so calm and also
sounded like annoyed at them, even though she is the one who brought this
chimp that attacked her own daughter. It's entirely her fault for owning this animal.
But like she was so calm. I guess I mean you tell she's
stressing, Like she is definitely stressed. I mean it almost feels like you
can hear like the door rattling in the background too, Like I don't know
if you heard that, oh really, And it could have been from the
the nine one to one operator side as well, So I don't know where
this tun was coming from, but it sounded like there was like a door
rattle going on there. Oh I believe that. Oh my god, that
is fucking terrifying. Yeah, and I know, I thought it was interesting
how she called him like the ape. Yeah, like it wasn't Buck,
it was the ape. And also she was like, don't think he's cute
and cuddly. It's like I don't think anyone who's gonna think that. No,
I mean you're calling nine one one for a reason, like that thing's
getting shot, whether you want two or not. Yeah. So an officer
did arrive, and there is bodycam footage released of what happens, and I
watched it, so it's available online if you want to see it. You
don't see, it's like not graphic. I mean you do see and hear
him shoot Buck, But essentially what happens is Buck is inside his enclosure,
just pacing around, not vocalizing a ton which is very different from the Travis
the pet Chimp, because in that nine one one audio you could definitely hear
Travis in the background, but in this case, Buck was like generally kind
of quiet and just pacing and at one point you can like kind of hear
someone talk from the background. So the officer asks if anyone's there, to
which Tamra from the basement says yes, and she sounds like really clear.
So the basement did not seem very far away from this enclosure where Buck was,
and in an annoyed tone, she says, I need you to shoot
him. Wow. It's one thing to be like hurry shoot him like my
daughter, but she was like shoot him. They get it over with,
yeah, pretty much. So the officer did shoot Buck, killing him with
a shot to the head. It only took one shot per Tamra's request.
Good go for her, I guess, I mean, all right. Yeah.
So once Buck was dead, emergency personnel were able to escort her daughter
to the hospital and she's recovered since then with the help of physical therapy.
But in response to this, Tamra said things like, quote, my daughter
was losing blood. Emergency personnel needed to get to her. There were no
options, and she also said, quote, there was no pain. My
beautiful son folded forward and was with God. There wasn't a twitch. He
just went to be with God. It was horrible, but it had to
happen. Okay, so these are normal people, Okay, nothing nothing crazy
going on with these ones at all. Mm hmm okay, yeah, super
run of the mill. And she also thanked the officer who shot Buck,
saying, quote, he sent Buck to heaven and saved my daughter. It
was a horrible thing that happened. For the rest of my life, I
will thank that man for what he did. End quote. Wow. So
the reason I really like this episode tooting my own horn, I guess,
is like we started with people who live around these animals in the wild where
the animals are supposed to be, and these people are suffering losing their children
because chimps come to take and often try to eat their children. And then
you have people here in America who think they're cute and want them as pets
and invite them into their home. And if that is not like the perfect
juxtaposition, like these two stories of like how delusional some of us can be
sometimes, like that is it? And then where they have no government to
help them, she just called Niama one. That is a great point.
Yeah, the people in Uganda have no government assistance to help them. I
mean, they do have police over there that can like come try to help,
like save their children. But yeah, this woman invites a chimp into
her home and then puts the officers' lives at risk to fix the problem that
she started. I mean, my my biggest thing is like they had this
show for how long seventeen years, fourteen years, almost seventeen years. Yeah,
and it again in a moment, just flip the switch, like kill
this thing, like right now, that's that's insane. That's insane. Yeah,
clearly it's not an anie we should be having if he can flip on
it that quick. Yeah, And like I said, she didn't tell anybody
any details of like what exactly led to the attack on her daughter. But
another thing that bothers me with like this story and the Travis story, is
like it's never the person who owns the chimp. Yeah, it's never the
person who is directly responsible. It's always somebody else that suffers. Yep,
you can't fucking control them? No, no, I mean, how many
people can't control their dogs and they're domesticated, Like, yeah, so why
why are we throwing an ape into the mix As we can control the apes,
don't worry about that. Hey you see the new plan of the Apes
yet? No? It is it? Good? I haven't seen either.
Oh we should see it? See it? Yeah, Okay, have you
seen the other ones? Yeah? I didn't watch the other ones, I
think. Okay, well add that to our list of movies. You know,
speaking of apes, there's a there's a monkey door with The Explorer.
I'm just saying it's a live action door that you want to watch. Yes,
it's the live action door The Explorer. It's hilarious. It's one of
the best movies of all time. It's very fun. Uh. And that's
us trying to decompress after people being idiots and owning animals they shouldn't. It's
crazy. I mean, I don't get it. Whenever I see like,
I feel like I get a lot of the shit on Instagram where it's like
people with big cats as pets. It's like you, yeah, dummies,
you dummies? Yeah? Yeah. So anyways, that was chimps is there
any any good tips for us to stay safe around the chimps if we ever
encounter them? Yeah, perfect, Nick, So if you're here in America,
don't own one and then you'll be safety. Pretty good advice actionally.
But if you want to go see chimps in the wild, because first of
all, if you're someone who lives around chimps, I'm assuming there are way
better resources than me, a girl who lives in the northeastern US, to
help you. I'm sure there are people there who have much better advice if
you're living around these animals. But you can go to Uganda and one of
the big popular touristy things to do is go on to what they call chimpanzee
treks, where you go into like Kibali National Park and try to seek out
the chimps. But to do that you need to get a permit from the
government to go interact with them. But from what I understand, the permit
is mostly like to limit time between you and the chimps for zoonotic disease reason,
not so much like aggression. Reason. Is that a healthy good way
to do it? Or are we supporters of doing events like that? The
conservationist to me is like I know, seeing animals in the wild or like
seeing an animal in person is usually the thing that can get people to care
more about them and care more about their conservation. But in this case,
I feel like we should just lead them the fuck alone. I'm so down,
give them connected pieces of forest, and just like not interact with them
more than we have to. Yeah, and just let them be. Don't
got tell meat twise I again, they fucking terrify me. Yeah, And
I can't imagine that all Taurus are per our last episode Torons. I can't
imagine that all Taurus are like respectful and good about being around chimpanzees or gorillas.
So I couldn't find any stories about like people getting hard like Taurus getting
harmed by chimps, because I think naturally, when all is going well and
they have plenty of resources, they will just avoid people like most wild things
do. But you know, in cases like the villages I was talking about
where they had like no food, that's what it becomes bad. Yeah,
are there any any case of a gorilla's going nuts on people? Have you
ever looked into that? Besides like Harambe in the Zoo, which also wasn't
his fault rip to a legend had to be done, It had to be
done over. I don't know. I didn't look into that well period.
Yeah. But also like I think gorillas in general are more like because of
the social structure of gorillas, I think that they are generally more calm and
have like less conflict than chimpanzees. They're more mate mate triarch, the moms
are more in charge the women. The women rule. No, I don't
think that as much as like chimpanzee communities, there's a lot of males,
but they're all like competing for the females, so there's a lot of like
sexual competition, whereas gorillas there's like one main male who does most of the
mating, so there's not as much tension between all the males to like father
the most. So yeah, they don't need to be as aggressive. Gotcha.
Yeah that's it. Word. Thanks for being here. I missed you.
Thanks for having me anytime. Well, if you want more from me
slash us check out Patreon you get bonus episodes and other stuff. Check out
our website gettlepodcast dot com, where you can buy merch which if you're watching
any clips from this video. I'm wearing one of our Orca shirts and we're
gonna have new merch soon with the new logo for that and stickers with the
new logo. Was that a yawn? That was a yawn? I'm so
sorry. I can't believe I just did that in the middle of you talking.
Wow, you're you're not seasoned anymore. No, I'm not exhausted.
Then we'll just wrap up. If you want to find us on social media,
check out the links Nick is and on social media. I never has
no that's good. Thank you to our nope, my he's my friend.
Thank you to my good friend and second grade husband, Josh Walsh, maker
into music before. It's true you were in his basement. Yeah wait,
okay, well hang on, Jesse Walsh his brother. We're also in his
basement with him because he was doing audio editing stuff. So thank you Jesse
for all that. If you want more information on them, also check out
our website. That's it cool. We'll be back in two weeks with a
new animal attack story.