WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:11.160 This is pod Populi Podcast for the People, the Great Love Debate. It's 2 00:00:11.199 --> 00:00:17.559 the Great Love Debate, the Great Love Debate. It's a Great Love Tobate. 3 00:00:18.079 --> 00:00:22.600 Hi again, Everyone's Brian Howie. Welcome to the Great Love Debate, 4 00:00:22.679 --> 00:00:27.079 the world's number one dating and relation podcast since twenty fifteen. I am back 5 00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:32.359 here in the very fine studios of pod Populi Podcast for the People. I 6 00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:35.759 am at the one in Scottsdale, Arizona. And normally I say, oh, 7 00:00:35.759 --> 00:00:39.399 it's a big scots dazzle today, but I'm a little behind, a 8 00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:42.320 little tired, and I want to get into something a little, a little 9 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:46.159 deeper, a little more serious today. So two things, this podcast is 10 00:00:46.280 --> 00:00:51.719 dropping hours, maybe even a full day later than normal, which I never 11 00:00:52.039 --> 00:00:54.159 do. And I already got a bunch of emails on this like where's your 12 00:00:54.159 --> 00:00:58.920 podcast? Are you okay? Which I definitely appreciate. And I feel bad 13 00:00:59.039 --> 00:01:03.640 because in eight years of doing this show, I always get it out, 14 00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:07.000 whether whatever the time is that we release it. We used to release it 15 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:08.560 on Sundays. Now we do Tuesday mornings, and it comes out, and 16 00:01:08.599 --> 00:01:12.560 you guys commit to me each week. I have to commit to you no 17 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:18.640 matter what. And I have recorded this podcast in I don't know a dozen 18 00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:23.640 countries. I recorded it on a phone in a Starbucks in Shanghai, and 19 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:29.280 I recorded in a bar in Melbourne, and in a food court in Thailand, 20 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:33.680 and on a beach in Tel Aviv and a casino in Vegas, everywhere 21 00:01:33.719 --> 00:01:36.680 I was no matter what, I made it work because I think it's important. 22 00:01:36.719 --> 00:01:41.480 So this podcast is not going to be a travelog, but that's is 23 00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:42.760 important. It's important that I get it out and I wanted to get it 24 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:46.879 right. So it's on a plane, and then another, and then one 25 00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:51.599 thing led to another, and so you're getting this podcast minutes hot out of 26 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:53.519 the oven after I actually record it. But it is a bit late, 27 00:01:53.560 --> 00:02:00.439 and I hope it does not happen again. No excuses, but this episode 28 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:07.560 is not about me. But it is just me because there's two things that 29 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:13.199 I want to talk about and they're loosely related. So I'm gonna merge them 30 00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:16.319 and we're gonna see where this goes. So let me start with something I 31 00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:23.360 saw in the news last week and it bothered me as much as any news 32 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:29.639 story in quite some time, which is saying something because some of our news 33 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:34.840 stories are a big pile of yikes. So let me just read the lead 34 00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:37.759 to this story. And I think you're gonna be bothered by this as much 35 00:02:37.800 --> 00:02:39.400 as me. And in a way, we're always trying to look at the 36 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:44.800 lighter side and the brighter side of the love dating relationship sphere. But this 37 00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:52.479 is the dark, dark end of the spectrum. And so I'm just gonna 38 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:53.439 read it, and then I'm gonna talk about it, and then I'm gonna 39 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:55.240 get a little bit deeper into what I want to talk about. So, 40 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:02.280 according to penlive dot com, citing a criminal complaint filed by police, the 41 00:03:02.439 --> 00:03:07.599 messages between the two allegedly began on May fifth, twenty twenty one, when 42 00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:15.080 Metzker on military training. With Metzker on military training out of town, Roisch 43 00:03:15.319 --> 00:03:20.840 allegedly messaged Metzker that she was in another relationship and the new man would be 44 00:03:20.879 --> 00:03:24.639 taking over as father of their daughter. I hope, for the child's sake 45 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:30.639 that you do kill yourself, Roisch allegedly wrote. Penlive dot com reported she 46 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:36.319 would be better off not knowing you. She also allegedly informed him that she 47 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:40.000 planned to have sex with a boyfriend on Mother's Day while your daughter calls him 48 00:03:40.120 --> 00:03:46.360 Daddy. Penlive dot com reported on another occasion, Roisch allegedly sent him a 49 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:51.759 video of her having sex with a man after Metzker gave her two hundred dollars, 50 00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:58.120 which she told him was too little, according to penlive dot com. 51 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:00.759 And the story goes on and on, so long, awful story short, 52 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:05.199 and this is not the first time we have heard one of these awful stories. 53 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:13.439 He killed himself and so she's charged with aiding suicide and misdemeanor harassment, 54 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:16.920 which seems really minor in the scheme of things. And this is such a 55 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:21.839 horrific story, But to me, this is also a symptom of where we 56 00:04:21.879 --> 00:04:28.959 are as a dating culture and an overall society. People can't just move on, 57 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:34.480 and people have to seek revenge and they have to inflict pain, and 58 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:41.639 there is this culture of dating bullying on the way in and on the way 59 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:46.319 out, and it's just fucking gross. It's gross, and it starts out 60 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:50.959 as manipulative, and it moves into a need to control a narrative, and 61 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:59.800 then it gets into this really really terrible corner of controlling an outcome and a 62 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:05.079 psyche and a will until we are all just broken. And I hate it. 63 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:10.120 And so I had to think about how much am I a part of 64 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:14.439 this awful cycle. Not nearly to that degree, but just an awful cycle 65 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:17.959 of what are we doing here? So you know, we've talked talked about 66 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:21.439 a bunch of times on this show about what I perceive to be the fallacy 67 00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:27.399 of closure, and about how you really never going to get it, at 68 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:30.839 least not in the way you think. But this story and what I'm talking 69 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:35.519 about, it's not really about wanting closure, because this kind of thing is 70 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:42.120 about not wanting it. It's about keeping something going for some twisted reason. 71 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:46.920 How many of you secretly stalk your exes honestly or wish ill on them. 72 00:05:48.279 --> 00:05:53.639 You're watching what they do, and you're sending bad vibes and all the jujus 73 00:05:53.720 --> 00:06:00.639 send out into the world. You're hoping for the very worst for them, 74 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:06.680 and that's the very worst of you. If you want them hurt or sad 75 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:13.759 or even dead, like in this extreme case, you are seriously seriously fucked 76 00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:18.720 up and you are dead at least inside, because you can't have it both 77 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:24.439 ways. You can't move on and you can't find happiness, and you can't 78 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:30.360 be emotionally healthy if you harbor these feelings of resentment and revenge, and you 79 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:33.920 want to still control their lives because the emotions about all this, and when 80 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:41.279 they surround all this, they still control you on the way into the relationship, 81 00:06:43.079 --> 00:06:46.279 while you are in it and while you are out of it. And 82 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:51.680 we have this need to never let anything go, especially the bad, which 83 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:55.959 brings me to why this is like I feel personally about this, and no, 84 00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:59.439 I'm not going to say I tortured somebody to that degree or anything like 85 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:02.800 that is personal to me, and it gets into the handling and processing of 86 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:10.040 emotions. Many of you guys watch Succession and I have been, and I 87 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:13.240 am a big fan. You know, the production value, no show ever 88 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:15.759 looked more expensive, the clothes, the writing, the lines, all of 89 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:19.600 it. And not to give any kind of spoiler alert, but one of 90 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:26.639 the pivotal lines of that show, and it is said by Kendall who referred 91 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:30.199 to him as the himself as the eldest son without actually being the eldest son, 92 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:38.879 but he said that maybe the poison drips through. Maybe the poison drips 93 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:42.879 through, and the line, as he said it, was in reference to 94 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:46.519 the sins of his father and all of the fathers who passed them along to 95 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:53.160 the sons and the evil and the manipulation and all of it. And the 96 00:07:53.240 --> 00:07:57.920 line really struck me because how many of us let the darkness of the past 97 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:03.959 relationships seep into the progress of any current ones. How much damage do we 98 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:16.600 pay forward personal relationships, family relationships, work relationships. And I've spoken pretty 99 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:22.759 frequently, and I hopefully candidly about my own struggle with what I guess love, 100 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:28.199 giving, receiving, recognizing all of it. And I have always said 101 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:31.879 that because I never trusted the love my parents had for each other despite being 102 00:08:31.919 --> 00:08:37.720 married for I don't know fifty plus years, that meant I didn't trust their 103 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:43.840 love for me, which means I didn't trust the entire concept. I want 104 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:48.360 to know in a nutshell why I never got married. Probably that and this 105 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:54.279 whole show, not this episode, but this entire podcast and tour and brand 106 00:08:54.480 --> 00:09:00.679 of the great Love Debate. It's really about that, What is it love? 107 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:07.320 How do I find it? How can I trust it? So you're 108 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:11.480 like, how is this related to the horrific story that I lead with? 109 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:20.320 And I think it's because the pain and the poison drip through every interaction and 110 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:26.759 every decision and every emotion for pretty much all of this is somehow couched and 111 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:35.720 qualified in how much of that darkness is brought forward into your day and into 112 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:43.559 your daily life. But my parents, does that mean I'm not capable of 113 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:46.600 healthy love because they're not? I mean, I don't know. That seems 114 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:48.480 like a lazy blame gain by me. It's sort of like children of an 115 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:52.320 alcoholic. Sometimes they drink a ton and sometimes they don't drink at all. 116 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:58.639 Things can go two ways, and you don't always choose your path on anything, 117 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:03.480 but I think you can certainly steer the destination. Path may vary. 118 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:07.840 It could be this security circuitous journey to wherever you want to go. I 119 00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:13.000 think you choose your destination what do I want the outcome to be? So 120 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:18.519 there's this old therapy term I think it is. It's called hugging the cactus, 121 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:26.240 and it means pretty much what it says that you bring the most painful 122 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:31.919 parts of your psyche closer to you, and you confront them for the purpose 123 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:41.600 of feeling them and acknowledging them and hopefully getting past them. And the needles 124 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:48.519 of that cactus have to pierce that wall, no matter how painful that is. 125 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:52.360 You have to pull them tight enough that they can get through that armor 126 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:58.240 that you have literally or metaphorically surrounded yourself with. So I've spoken before on 127 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:03.720 this podcast about how I need glasses to read, but I don't need them 128 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:09.320 for any other reason. But I wear them all the time. I always 129 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:13.279 have my glasses on. It's like it's like a signature look of mine, 130 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:16.639 even though they're really just progressive reading glasses. But I never take them off. 131 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:22.840 And why do I do that? Because I feel too vulnerable without them. 132 00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:26.960 And as I go through the journey that I think we're all on, 133 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:33.679 I don't want anyone looking too deeply into my soul. And so this thin 134 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:39.440 layer of glass gives me some perverted level of protection, at least in my 135 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:50.039 mind. And another trick that I've used is that though I'm self described introvert, 136 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:56.480 that I tend to lead with passion really overtly. And whether that's in 137 00:11:56.519 --> 00:12:00.679 a conversation or in an encounter or in a relationship. It could be a 138 00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:03.399 work thing, could be a girlfriend thing. If I'm a little louder, 139 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:07.080 a little faster, a little deeper, a little harder, if I can 140 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:11.399 control the emotion of the dialogue, then I can control the emotion of the 141 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:18.320 outcome and subsequently the interaction and or the relationship, which, if you think 142 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:22.600 about it, that is about as unhealthy and manipulative as it gets. And 143 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:26.840 maybe it's a distant, distant cousin of that terrible example of being in this 144 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:31.960 and any awful example you can give, because it's not only wrong, it's 145 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:39.120 not fair. It's not fair to anybody in your life. People deserve the 146 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:50.240 honest you. People deserve true emotions, and they deserve your actual thoughts and 147 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:56.919 your real feelings. And if everything you are giving is to control a narrative 148 00:12:56.039 --> 00:13:01.799 or to determine an outcome, or even to protect a true it is by 149 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:09.840 its very nature going to be hurtful and mostly to yourself. And I think 150 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:13.679 we all have to recognize that, like from the moment you are trying to 151 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:16.840 get into a relationship and doing everything you can to get them to like you, 152 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:20.000 and moving into during the time that you're actually in a relationship and doing 153 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:24.639 everything you can to get them to appreciate you, to the time the relationship 154 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:31.960 ends and you're trying to process all that comes with that, because in a 155 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:35.279 way, the relationship ending, it is a bit of a death, and 156 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:39.240 it doesn't matter how or why it ended or the circumstances behind it. This 157 00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:45.159 living thing that was the two of you. When it ends that died, 158 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:50.480 your emotions for this person or this situation are no longer what they were, 159 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:56.000 and love may have shifted into rage because they are can be caned emotions, 160 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:03.720 and lust may morph into revel and none of that change is healthy because that 161 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:11.000 change is all rooted in some sort of pain. The poison has dripped through 162 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:16.200 and you have to be aware of that, and you have to cut it 163 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:20.120 off before it gets somewhere that you can't get back from, go to point 164 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:24.120 of no return, or it takes too many of the best years and the 165 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:30.879 best relationships of your life. These are not easy conversations to have. These 166 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:33.440 are not things you can just bring up over brunch because they're layered in their 167 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:37.759 nuance and they're manipulative and they're painful. They're not easy emotions to understand. 168 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:46.960 Why do I say these things? Why do I act this way? Why 169 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:56.039 do I feel these feelings towards them or against them? And so I personally, 170 00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:58.919 I'm giving myself a little credit here. I've never been one of those 171 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:03.639 people. I've never wished ill upon X's but if anything, I wanted them 172 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:09.679 to find happiness immediately so that I felt no guilt over whatever substandard behavior I 173 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:13.279 had that led to the relationships ending the demise of it. I'm like, 174 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:15.440 oh, thank god, you found somebody else. You won't be mad at 175 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:22.840 me anymore. That is equally fucked up and incredibly sad. And I blame 176 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:28.360 so much of my own shit on the stuff from my father and my mother, 177 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:33.759 and then if that poison drips through, it's their fault, not mine. 178 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:43.000 That's lazy thinking. It's never really, it's never entirely them. It's 179 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:54.879 still you, it's still me, because we're not embracing the cactus. You're 180 00:15:54.919 --> 00:16:00.440 wearing the glasses, you're controlling the narrative, you're fearing the honest outcome. 181 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:04.279 That's me, and I think that's a lot of you, that's most of 182 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:10.360 us. And that's why I think we have these conversations over and over in 183 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:12.080 all kinds of places, in all kinds of ways, and most of them, 184 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:15.559 most of our episodes here, if this is your first time tuning in, 185 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:18.519 they're not normally like this. Most of them are fun and we laugh, 186 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:22.960 but sometimes we have to pause and take a harder look, Like let's 187 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:26.200 just hold on a minute and say, is this where this love stuff goes 188 00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:33.679 to? That place? That police blotterer story that I read? So I 189 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:37.360 want to take a harder look today, even if it dropped a few hours 190 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:42.279 late. I think because it matters, like all of it matters. So 191 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:48.240 before the darkness snuffs out the light and takes down the possibilities, and before 192 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:52.480 the blame and the revenge take a tragic turn, I think you just have 193 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:59.559 to take a breath and maybe take a walk and figure out what it is 194 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:07.440 that you are feeling, and figure out what exactly it is and how and 195 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:14.440 why you feel about that. If you feel badly, try to feel better. 196 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:21.359 If you feel good, still try to feel better. And in order 197 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:25.680 to feel better, I think you have to start by feeling. You've got 198 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:34.319 to feel the pain, the poison, the cactus needles, the past and 199 00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:40.440 the present. We are very reluctant to feel or live in the present. 200 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:42.039 I want to look to the future, I want to go to the past. 201 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:45.759 But right here, right now, and again, I am just as 202 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:51.680 guilty as anybody on this. I hate what that girl did to that guy, 203 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:55.440 and I hate what I believe my parents did or didn't do for me 204 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:57.960 and to me, But I hate that I didn't take the time to acknowledge 205 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:03.720 or process any of it or my own part in it, playing the blame 206 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:07.680 game. You did this, you did this, You deserve this blah blah 207 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:15.039 blah until now recently present. And that's why we do this, this show. 208 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:19.440 We do it, and we have these conversations to process it and to 209 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:26.039 heal it and to grow from it. And I think to share it because 210 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:29.759 it all starts with feeling it, and once you feel it, you know, 211 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:34.720 I think it all begins because you can put an end to all that 212 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:41.200 was and couldn't be. So thank you for bearing with me on this a 213 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:42.640 little late. You're like, I turned in late for this. Oh that's 214 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:45.839 so sad, I don't think so. I think there's a little bit of 215 00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:48.119 hope in all of this when we take a look at ourselves and what we 216 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:51.480 do and how we do it and how we can do it better. So 217 00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:55.559 shoot me an email Great Love Debate at gmail dot com with your own experienced 218 00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:59.960 thoughts, opinions, anecdotes, or whatever. Go to Great Love Debate dot 219 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:03.920 com. I think our pickets are finally on for the handful of the store 220 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:08.960 of shows I have been talking about for probably two months now. But most 221 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:14.960 importantly like, share, follow, and please review this podcast. As always, 222 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:19.640 your reviews mean a lot in the podcasting ecosystem. At The Great Love 223 00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:29.920 Debate, we never stopped making love. See you next time. The Great 224 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:36.920 Love Debate. It's the Great Love Debate, the Great Love Debate. It's 225 00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:37.279 the Great Love Debate.