WEBVTT

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A lawsuit against Jeed Blue involving Abraham
Lunger, an Orthodox Jewish passenger, sheds

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lights on a disturbing display of closed
mindedness. Lunger's refusal to sit next to

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a woman solely based on his religious
beliefs resulted in his expulsion from the flight.

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His uncompromising stance highlights a rigid adherence
to outdated principles at the expensive common

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decency. This incident underscores the challenges
airlines face when passengers prioritize their beliefs over

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the convenience and comfort of fellow travelers, and it serves as a stark reminder

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of the intolerance that still persists today
in society, even in seemingly trivial situations

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like airplane seating arrangements. This story
is from Business Insider by Grace Dean on

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March twelfth, twenty twenty four.
And I'm sure my fellow panelists are going

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to have plenty to say about this. This is just like a this is

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the low hanging fruit, proverbiably so. But before we do, I just

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want to point out a few things
here. There is more to the lawsuit

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than just that particular part of it. They're also alleging that the airline was

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mistreating them both during the incident and
afterwards. So there was some other claims

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made by the accuser. They were
told they're according to them, they were

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told that they could ask around to
see if anyone would switch. The flight

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attendant apparently yelled at them to return
to their seat and then wouldn't let them

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switch, even though other passengers were
saying that they would be willing to switch.

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And then the pilot came out and
said that they was refusing to let

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them switch and that they would have
to get off the plane, And so

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they got off the plane. Apparently
they weren't allowed to collect their luggage,

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and then they had to pay for
the price difference for a flight for the

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next day, and they even had
they were charged a ticket change fee,

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So there was more than just the
just the seating arrangement. Obviously, that's

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a ridiculous expectation, clearly sexist and
really actually kind of creepy. But there's

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good ways to deal with those kind
of things, and there's bad ways to

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deal with those kind of things.
So if we're assuming that all of those

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details from the story were correct,
because really we're only hearing one side of

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the story. The airline itself didn't
didn't have any lengthy statement about this,

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probably because you know, it's an
on it's an ongoing case. But I

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don't know, I'm kind of leaning
towards the passenger should probably wins. It

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sounds like they were kind of mistreated
after the fact, and but it wouldn't

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be necessarily because of religious intolerance.
It was just because of the way they

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were treated afterwards. Having said that, Having said that, I do have

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to say that I think it can
make a good business sense for for airlines

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and businesses in generals to have certain
a certain level of accommodation if it can

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be done fairly and consistently. For
example, I'm a teacher. In the

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school that I work at, we
generally go go out of our way or

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put it put some effort into to
accommodate students that have religious holidays and things

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like that, and we're asked to
work with the students and so forth.

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And my approach, being an atheist, my approach to this in the past

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has been to I kind of work
a little flexibility into the system, okay,

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instead of instead of saying, well, you can take this holiday,

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because you know, because you have
a religious holiday, I just give everybody

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you know you can, you can
have one flex day or things like that.

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There are certain things that you can
do to to accommodate, not to

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kind of accommodate what I like to
call preference requests, okay, And I

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think that's really the way to approach
these kind of things. I don't like

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the idea of going out of your
way to accommodate a religious request, but

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I do think that that falls within
a category of types of requests. Maybe

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somebody wanted to sit by the window, or maybe, you know, somebody

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needed to sit near the bathroom because
they're not feeling well, or maybe somebody

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didn't want to sit next to a
particular person because of their you know,

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because of their religious well because of
their religious bigotry basically. But you know,

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I would categorize all those into kind
of like a preference style requests,

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and I think that they can be
addressed and they can be treated fairly and

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consistently. You can already in many
airlines you can specify where you know where

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you want when you buy your ticket, you can say where you want to

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sit, and so there is some
of that flexibility worked in infidel. What

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are your thoughts on that? How
do you what was your take here?

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It's funny you mentioned that because a
while back my son flew Jet Blue and

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said he would never do it again
because they nickeled and dimed everything. And

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one of those things that they do
nickel and dime, though, is the

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fact, if you want to choose
what seat you sit in, you can

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pay the fee. So at the
end of the day, this guy had

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every opportunity to avoid sitting next to
some dangerous worldly woman who could have tempted

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him into something by just choosing to
pay the extra money and sitting next to

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his wife who was actually on the
flight, or the other gentleman that was

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with him as well. So for
that, I feel that their expectation of

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accommodation seems more of an idea of
privilege than actual need, because it's a

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fabricated need. They could have avoided
this by paying the money. I also

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found it interesting though that it's Jet
Blue, because one of the heirs of

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Beneficiarias of Jet Blue is one of
these tad wife people, So I would

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expect the company to look rather positive
towards these closed minded behaviors, you know,

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they promote something, and that's pretty
much akin to this idea, you

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know, along with people like Mike
Pence, who you know, can't go

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to a dinner with a woman unless
his wife's there or someone else is there

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to chaperon him. But really,
for me, what I find most disgusting

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about it is it really feels like
a build in excuse for bad behavior for

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men, because if you can't control
yourself sitting on a plane sitting next to

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some woman, then then that's a
problem you have, not the airline and

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not a woman. You know,
we mentioned not too long ago, we

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discussed a story about a pastor who
excused rape because of a woman wearing shorts.

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And I just find that this type
of mentality is all just wound up

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together. And when it comes down
to the flight attendant getting upset and yelling

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at them, well, I don't
know how that was. We weren't there,

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but I will say that the last
time I was on a flight,

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to think about somebody just standing there
mildly in the in the middle of this

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big, wide, okay not so
wide aisle, saying just politely standing there

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because they couldn't sit next to the
woman who was in the seat next to

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them. That just seems so disingenuous
because it's not like we can you know

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too deep. I mean, two
people walking past on those aisles is tight

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enough already. So just the mirror
act of standing there with you know,

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with your thumb up your ass and
in the middle of the aisle. I

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can understand why an overworked flight attendant
would say, hey, come on,

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sit down, let's get this going. Does it excuse bad behavior? No?

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But is it I understand that,
yes, because look, just sit

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down and fly, fly where you
want to go, or pay the fee.

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But you know, I could go
on with this forever, so I

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should probably not. And with that
in mind, Richard, what do you

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think about this? Well, you
said something that I that I was not

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aware of. Maybe I missed it
about the guy's wife was on there with

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him, obviously, Yeah, they
should have booked those together with with him

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next to the window and her in
the middle, you know, some way.

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But why didn't the wife switch with
him and sit next to the woman

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and he go to the back to
the other seat unless there was also a

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woman there. That's just you know, there's a lot of facts here that

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my legal background tells me I can't. I can't decide who's right or wrong

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without really seeing the evidence or taking
a deposition or two. I mean,

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it's these are these are he said? She said, they said kind of

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stories, which, you know,
until you get people under oath and find

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out what's really going on, you're
probably not going to know exactly. But

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what's at the bottom of this that
bothers me that you know, this kind

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of thinking is still going on.
It's basically early biblical patriarchy. I mean,

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that's what it is. Over two
thousand years this has been going on,

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and these people still think the same
way. I mean, aren't they

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ever going to move along with history
and the advancements of science and the fact

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they're on an airplane. I mean, they didn't have airplanes when those rules

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were made back in four or five
hundred, you know, BC or whatever.

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So it just I don't know.
I mean, we've got to work

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toward figuring out how to change things. The problem is a lot of these

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people that think that way, you
know, they indoctrinate their kids to think

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the same way. And the only
way we're going to get our society to

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be better is to get their kids
and our kids to have the ability to

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ask questions and investigate and you know, have an open mind and see what's

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out there without you know, being
you know, how would I put it

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impeded with dogmatic blinders? Yeah,
oh, Jason, I'm sure you've got

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something to say. No, No, I do agree with you. You

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know, that's one thing that really
stood out to be on the fact that

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you know, it does feel like
a double edged sword, he said,

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she said, type of thing.
But you know what really made me think

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about this. It's funny because half
my family's Jewish, you know, so

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I think about this. One of
my best buddies that I trained with is

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a very devout jew But you know, we spar together and we actually,

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you know, we talk a lot
of This is very old friend of mine,

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family friend of mine. But you
know, so here, here's what

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I'm saying. Here's scenario. So
if a person who happens to be a

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member of let's say an obscure religious
belief system, you know, let's say,

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doesn't allow them to sit next to
black people cause this type of problem

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on an airplane, would they be
given this type of gravitas? Would they

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would anybody even really care? Would
we even be having this conversation. So

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I'm saying, you know, I
feel like this article may even be a

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little politically loaded given the current state
of affairs in our world. It's just,

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really, it fucking blows my mind
that blatant sexism is given any form

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of consideration when it is upheld by
a religious belief, especially that of you

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know, like what everyone said,
it's like an archaic, ancient religion,

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and because of the nature of it, especially being in a Christian nation,

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it's given a special pass. And
again I say this as a person who

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has a Jewish last name. Half
my family's Jewish, like I said,

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very close friends are Jewish. I
just but the thing is like, if

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he were to act that way,
if any of my familys were to act

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this way, I'd be pissed and
I'd actually strongly question my relationship with him.

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I don't I have to disagree with
maybe disagree with Scott, And I'm

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going to shoot it back to you
after this, so I want to see

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your take on it. I just
I don't think people should be given special

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accommodations when those accommodations involve xenophobia and
bigotry and racism and sexism. It's like,

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tough fucking luck, man, Like, this is a woman, this

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is a black person, this is
a white person, this is a person

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from a different country. Your religion
says you can't sit next to them in

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a fucking airport or in a public
place. Tough shit. It's like,

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Richard, this is a modern world. You chose to go on the plight

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flight. You didn't spend the extra
fifteen dollars to get a seat next to

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the woman that you choose to be
with. There's a lot of things you

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could do, but instead of doing
those things, you fucking impose your bullshit

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on other people and then blame them
if anything is just it's just gaslighting or

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borderline type behavior, and then it's
justified by patriarchal, fucking archaic bullshit like

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with Infidel brought up. I don't
know, I have a big problem with

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this. I don't have problem with
people believing in religions, but whenever your

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religion starts imposing on other people,
and that's a problem, and I don't

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think any accommodation should be made for
that because at that point you're just accommodating

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bigotry. And we're taking two steps
foward and four steps backwards, Scott,

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I'm gonna throw it back to you, man, I'd like for you to

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maybe clarify or yeah, no,
common yeah, I agree, I agree,

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I agree with you and kind of
disagree in the same respect. I

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think that I do agree that accommodation
shouldn't be given because of those particular reasons,

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because they're saying, well, my
religion says I can't sit next to

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a woman. Clearly, that's ridiculous. I think. I think for an

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for an airline to go out of
it so well, let me let me

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rephrase that, for there to be
expectations of the other passengers to accommodate that

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thing, I think is going too
far. I think, up to a

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point, though, airlines can accommodate
for any number of requests, like I

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mentioned before, like I do some
of this in my teaching, and the

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way I like to do it is
I'll give you opportunity. Like if I

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was running the airline, maybe I
would say, I'll give you an opportunity

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to switch your seat or to select
your seat. I wasn't aware that Jet

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Blue had the option to to,
you know, pay the extra fee to

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to choose your seat, but up
to a point you can choose you.

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I don't care the reason. I
don't care the reason. It could be

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because of your religion, that's fine, that's your decision. It could be

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because you're you're not feeling well,
that's your decision. It could be maybe

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you just don't want to sit by
your friend, you know, whatever the

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reason. Up to a certain point, I think accommodation can be reasonable.

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But like I said, when you
start infringing on the other passengers, when

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you start when you start expecting I
think it was infidel you said something about

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privilege, right, and so if
you start expecting that people will accommodate you

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just because it's your religion, then
I would definitely agree that that's too far

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and that's unreasonable expectation. Speaking of
that, I want to ask a question

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of the panel here. If you
were on that plane, I want to

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ask you, would you trade seats
with somebody on a plane if somebody asked

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you and they specified it was because
of their religion. Now, you might

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want to say yes because you're just
showing kindness to a fellow passenger. You

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might want to say no because maybe
you feel it's an appropriate way for you

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to protest against those religious demands and
accommodations. Would you change seats? Let's

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say you're traveling alone. Let's say
you have no other requirements on sitting at

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a particular spot. Would you do
it? Infidel? What do you think

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would you change seats if somebody asked
you to. I'll give you the short

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answer, because the long answer would
not be appropriate for you to. No,

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not at all. And it does
go back to what I feel comes

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across as a sense of smugs moral
superiority because their morals are telling them,

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or their profess morals is telling them
that they can't sit next to this other

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person. And if this was a
discussion we were having of someone saying I

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can't sit next to that guy over
there because he's an Orthodox Jew, I'd

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be slamming them too for bigotry,
because that's just as unacceptable and with that

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expectation, and I think that they
would be offended if someone said that about

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them, and rightly so. And
on the flip side, I think that

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they should give that same expectation to
other people, whether they're women or people

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of color or whatever reason of a
new bigoted nuance. Me personally know I

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would have absolutely no problem in life, generously laughing in their face and saying

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move along. But Richard, what
about you would would you change your seat

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if somebody said, please change my
seat? My religion requires that I can't

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sit by a woman. I guess
it would all depend on the circumstances,

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the way the person's tone of voice
was, how they looked, you know,

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and if and if you know you
said we're alone. I would say

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if I was with my wife,
I would say no, I'm staying here.

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But I have done that for people
on a plane. But they didn't

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actually say religious. It was they
needed to be next to their kids.

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So I said, fine, you
know, I mean, I'm I'm an

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easygoing guy as long as you're not
stepping on my toes, so I'm probably

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you know, would say, but
I might. I might have commented about

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it, you know, I might. I might have said, sure,

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but you know, it's pretty weird
that you can't sit there. So I

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don't know. It's hard to say
without being there for you know what I

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mean? Right right? I agree
kind of, but I don't know.

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This just reminds me of some back
of the bush shit. It really does.

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I have to agree with Infidel.
This is just like this is.

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You know, women sit on one
side and minsit on the other back of

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the bus here below me. I'm
above you. I get to do this.

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I get to impede on everybody else's
shit to do my shit. I'd

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know, fuck them, man again, I cannot separate it from any other

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form of bigotrees inophobia. Just because
it's allowed and acceptable and we're used to

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it, we give some kind of
fucking exception for it. I just can't.

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I can't deal with it. To
me, it's just the same way

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as treating a person of color.
I don't know. I've been treated that

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way. I'm covered in tattoos and
it's it's it's you know, so you

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know, I've definitely not Luckily nowadays
people are a lot more used to it,

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but fifteen years ago, you know, a little different. So I've

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definitely been treated that way. And
uh, you know, fuck people who

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treat me that way, and fuck
people who treat anybody else that way.

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I don't w anything to do with
them, and I'm not going to accommodate

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them. Will you answer that way? Would you say that I already have

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I do it all the time.
I have no problem public all right,

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no problem. It's it's it's you
should talk to my poor part nor my

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poor kid. I get strangely conversational
when I feel like people are acting,

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Yeah, just don't bring me around
abortion protesters. I don't know, this

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is one of those things. So
yeah, okay, all right, cool,

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great answers. Let's try another question
here. So how does this compare

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contrast to other situations where individuals are
making requests and possibly being denied. For

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example, if a gay couple wants
to buy a wedding cake. Okay,

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different situation, But are there any
contrast there? Are we going to have

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a rule of inclusiveness? What are
the important differences here and fit on?

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What are your thoughts on that?
For me, it's rather simple. First,

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as you mentioned earlier, there's no
rule in the Bible about where you

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sit on an airplane or where you
do or don't make a cake. So

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whenever they use biblical excuses to rationalize
bad behavior, to me, what they're

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doing is they're just retrofitting their own
bigotry into a little box that they can

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say, oh, this is this
is why I feel this way. So

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for me, I feel that when
you start closing doors like that, I

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think that's something that I'm not willing
to tolerate. I have no interest in

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being part of, and I have
no interest enabling people who do. Richard,

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how about you? What is it? How would this compare to the

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situation with a gay couple wanting to
buy a wedding cake. Well, I'll

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give you a slightly different example.
I mean, I think that's a real

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problem. I'm very familiar with the
Supreme Court case that had that happen and

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found it very uncomfortable. I live
about a mile and a half away from

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a hobby lobby, and I drive
by there all the time, and every

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time I do, I not nice
words go through my head. So in

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any case, yeah, I mean, I just think most people live about

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a mile and a half away from
a hobby unfortunately. Yeah. No,

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just my whole thought is, like
with what Infidel and Jason and everybody's saying,

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you know, we need to have
a situation where you treat people as

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if they're all the same equal rights. Everybody should be, you know,

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unless they're doing something harming you or
harming somebody else, leave them alone.

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And if they want to buy a
cake from you, or if they need

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a wedding dress. I mean,
if you're open for business, you need

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to be open for business for everybody. It's just that simple. Yeah,

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and I agree, I agree.
I just you know, I won't take

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it too much time with this,
And look, I don't know, it's

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a spicy take. I have no
problem with assholes making private clubs where assholes

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pay to be part of the asshole
club and they do assholes shit and everybody

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knows this is where the assholes go
and do assholes shit, that's okay.

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But if it's open to the public
and we enable this type of bullshit and

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bigotry, all we're doing is being
traders to America. I mean, if

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Americans who are citizens, paying taxes, putting back into the system, or

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not given equal opportunity, not equal
outcome, but at least equal opportunity,

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equal rights, equal access to healthcare, blah blah blah, and treated fairly,

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than what you're doing is being a
fucking trader. Your behaviors are treesiness

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and your impact and place society should
be reevaluated. So that's how I feel

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about that shit. All right,
all right, well, any any last

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words before we wrap this one up
here? Infidel, Yeah, I agree,

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entirely because I think that oftentimes we
put a veneer of tolerance upon things,

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and really what we're talking about is
enabling as long as we pass a

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blind eye to things. What we're
doing, is this allowing these things to

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be had? I agree, Yeah, yeah, that's a great way to

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put it. It's like disguising bigotry
and enabling in the four in the guise

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of tolerance, kind of like a
wolf in sheep's clothing kind of set up

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there. Yeah, good point,
good point, And we had a great

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conversation here, and great conversation.
If you would like to continue this conversation,

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00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:52.000
check out our fan run facebook groups. We also have a fan run

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00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:57.119
discord server at tiny dot c c
slash A C A discord. Nope,

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my mistake, Sorry, nope,
that was tiny dot c c slash A

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C D discord. Jason, I
keep mixing up my A C A S

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and my A c DS. It's
all right, man, we'll forgive you

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eventually. Let me repeat that,
I keep mixing up my A C A

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S and my A C D S
c D DS. Nuts. All right,

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So I was gonna do. I
mean, you left some hanging out

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for me, but you know,
there. I understand you're even on the

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show for a while. You're a
little rusty, but