1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,079 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:49,560 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley 10 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:56,159 and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by podcaster Jennifer Amel and badass 11 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:02,640 survivor Jane Barowski here to talk to us about the Dark Valley podcast. Jane 12 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:07,799 and Jen, welcome to the podcast. I thank you glad to be here. 13 00:01:07,599 --> 00:01:11,040 Hey, yeah, pleasure to be here. Thanks for having us. 14 00:01:11,079 --> 00:01:15,519 So, before we get into the new podcast, Dark Valley, go ahead 15 00:01:15,519 --> 00:01:19,640 and start by telling us a little bit about yourselves. Jen, I'll start 16 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,439 with you, and then Jane jump on and tell us a little bit about 17 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:26,560 yourselves professionally, educationally, that sort of thing. Cool. Yeah, I 18 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:33,640 am a college dropout, but I do have a background in journalism and documentary 19 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:38,439 filmmaking which led me here to podcasting. Excellent, Jane, how about you. 20 00:01:38,359 --> 00:01:44,959 I'm a mom, a wife, a grandma and do some podcasting on 21 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,000 the side. And I'm an advocate. I want to get that out there. 22 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:52,359 I am a victim advocate too. Talk to us a little bit about 23 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,159 Dark Valley. What is this podcast about primarily? And how did you get 24 00:01:57,159 --> 00:02:01,640 the idea? How did the two of you meet and start this podcast partnership? 25 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:08,719 Jane, do you want me to take the elevator pitch please? Dark 26 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:15,599 Valley is a new investigative series from my company, Crawlspace Media and our partners 27 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:21,560 at Glassbox Media, and it is about the unsolved cases of the Connecticut River 28 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:27,520 Valley killer up in New England. We're investigating eight murders and one attack. 29 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,000 There's one survivor of the serial killer and she's speaking with us right now. 30 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:36,840 And so, Jane, how did you and Jen originally meet. What's the 31 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:43,439 connection that created this new partnership? Jen and Cross Space Media contacted me and 32 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,199 they wanted to start this project with Dark Valley. It was a coincidence because 33 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:53,639 at the same time, I was just getting ready to create Invisible Tiers, 34 00:02:53,719 --> 00:02:59,000 my own podcast. We ended up meeting up and I was really interested in 35 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,000 wish you want to to go with the Dark Valley and why she wanted to 36 00:03:02,039 --> 00:03:07,319 do it. We just got together and started talking and here we are. 37 00:03:08,199 --> 00:03:14,319 And so were your initial meetings face to face or over the web like we're 38 00:03:14,319 --> 00:03:19,080 doing now. We initially I initially called you, right Jane after a brief 39 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:23,680 message on Facebook, and I had heard Jane's story and I was like, 40 00:03:23,719 --> 00:03:27,000 there's no way she's going to respond to me. There's no way. And 41 00:03:27,039 --> 00:03:29,439 then she was like, Okay, I'll hear you out. Let's have a 42 00:03:29,479 --> 00:03:32,560 phone call. The timing was serendipitous, as you touched on, Jane, 43 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:37,560 Yeah, it's been almost three years that we've been in production. Yeah. 44 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:43,719 Crazy. And then Jenn, timidly it's Crowdspace, came to our hometown and 45 00:03:43,919 --> 00:03:49,120 we did some videotaping and some audio and just went from there. But I 46 00:03:49,159 --> 00:03:53,800 think the project wasn't exactly what Jenna had pictured at first, and we went 47 00:03:53,919 --> 00:03:58,199 a different direction and it was a great meeting. I had been approached by 48 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:03,159 some other people about doing my story and interest in different things about my story, 49 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:10,599 and I hadn't always had the best relationship with these people. I felt 50 00:04:10,599 --> 00:04:15,680 like they all had an agenda. When I met Jenna and Carldspace, it 51 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,319 was I felt like they were the perfect people to do this story, to 52 00:04:18,639 --> 00:04:25,040 do Dark Valley and the Connecticut River Valley cases, talk about them and talk 53 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,800 about the victims, and they were just a perfect fit for it. We 54 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,199 just we have hit it off since it's been awesome. It's been a great 55 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:38,639 ride. It's been very interesting. I did warn her right off the bat, 56 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,439 but she was like, I want to find answers for you and the 57 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:46,360 families, and I said, you're gonna have By the end, you're gonna 58 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,120 have more questions and answers. I guarantee it. And it's pretty much has 59 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:58,079 happened. Before we get too terribly much further in talking about the big issues, 60 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,399 let's actually have the two of you walk us through the basics of the 61 00:05:01,439 --> 00:05:04,600 Connecticut River Valley case. Jenna, I'll start with you and then you and 62 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,319 Jane can bounce it back and forth. Tell us a little bit about the 63 00:05:08,319 --> 00:05:13,279 Connecticut River Valley Killer. Oh geez. I want to preface by saying I 64 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,920 think Jane and I were aligned in our mission and our values in telling these 65 00:05:15,959 --> 00:05:20,759 stories because we didn't want to put so much focus on who this man was 66 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:26,120 who killed these women, and really wanted to approach it inversely the other way 67 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,480 around, by learning more about the other women who were murdered. And of 68 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,800 course I was interested in Jane's life and what happened to her after her attack, 69 00:05:33,959 --> 00:05:39,240 Like she lived thirty six years after this, what's that story too. 70 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:43,199 That said, we have been able to glean a couple things about who this 71 00:05:43,399 --> 00:05:46,879 killer is. The cases are a little confusing because we don't know if all 72 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:51,560 of them are actually connected. There's no piece of DNA that links each case 73 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:56,839 or anything. We do look at certain patterns that develop in each case. 74 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,199 I think the Valley Killer is marked by a m They were all stabbing victims. 75 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:06,199 All the women were probably victims of opportunity out in the world, hitchhiking, 76 00:06:06,319 --> 00:06:11,480 talking on payphones, that sort of thing, abducted, taken elsewhere, 77 00:06:12,079 --> 00:06:16,279 and stabbed in a v shape pattern. That's their upper chest and abdomen. 78 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:21,279 Usually the ones that we can tell their throats were cut as well. Jane, 79 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:25,079 do you want to talk about Does any of that match up with your 80 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:30,000 case? Oh? Yeah, exactly. I was stabbed multiple times. When 81 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,279 he approached me, he wanted me to go with him, so I was 82 00:06:32,439 --> 00:06:36,079 very adamant that I wouldn't go with him, thank God, because I probably 83 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:41,560 wouldn't be here speaking with you people today. But he stabbed me multiple times, 84 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,839 mostly a lot in the chest, and left me for dead. I 85 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,519 was a victim of opportunity. It was at night. I was in a 86 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:54,319 parking lot at a closed store getting a zoda out of a soda machine. 87 00:06:54,959 --> 00:06:58,160 There was also a payphone there, and there was a couple of the other 88 00:06:58,199 --> 00:07:02,199 girls that there was a phone where they were at too. The similarities, 89 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:10,160 there's several similarities to all the cases, including my own. It's probably worth 90 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:15,360 mentioning at this point that the core cases that we believe may be part of 91 00:07:15,399 --> 00:07:21,720 the Connecticut River Valley killings stretched from about nineteen seventy eight to nineteen eighty eight, 92 00:07:23,439 --> 00:07:27,759 and it's probably worth mentioning, especially for our younger listeners. We're talking 93 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,600 about a situation where there are no cell phones. If you want to make 94 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,040 a phone call, you're either at home, at work, or you're using 95 00:07:34,079 --> 00:07:39,959 a payphone. Those are the options. For instance, my son Chris, 96 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,199 who's twenty five now, I'm not sure that he, as a young man, 97 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,680 has ever even used a payphone. I think he's seen one, but 98 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:51,279 I'm not sure that for our younger listeners, they quite get the fact that 99 00:07:51,519 --> 00:07:56,519 if you wanted to reach someone, it was home, work, or a 100 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:01,480 payphone, or maybe a friend's house. The evening that you stopped on the 101 00:08:01,519 --> 00:08:05,399 way home from a fair. As I recall Jane, you're at a place 102 00:08:05,519 --> 00:08:11,720 where the convenience store is closed, but you know that there's a vending machine 103 00:08:11,759 --> 00:08:16,439 there and you can grab a cold drink. And that's also a place where 104 00:08:16,439 --> 00:08:20,920 there's a payphone. So someone pulling in even to a closed store is not 105 00:08:22,079 --> 00:08:26,319 that unusual because of the payphone location. Correct, Oh, exactly. And 106 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:33,480 this was a very small town and in the eighties it had virtually no major 107 00:08:33,519 --> 00:08:37,759 crime there, so it was a safe community. And don't forget because there 108 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:43,200 was no social media either. I was unaware of the other cases in the 109 00:08:43,279 --> 00:08:50,480 Hampshire. I had no reason to even be any sort of terrified to stop 110 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,759 or nervous to stop or hesitant. I felt safe. It was a safe 111 00:08:54,759 --> 00:08:58,600 community. I had no reason not to feel safe. So when did you 112 00:08:58,639 --> 00:09:03,399 find out that your attack was potentially a part of a much larger series of 113 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,519 killings? When did you find that out? Yeah, that's interesting. After 114 00:09:07,639 --> 00:09:11,919 my attack, when I was in the hospital, I was all over the 115 00:09:11,919 --> 00:09:16,200 news my attack. News stations were all in front of the hospital. I 116 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:20,440 was in all the newspapers, and my feeling protected me from all that. 117 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:26,960 I really didn't know exactly what was going on outside the hospital. And then 118 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:33,000 one day I had mentioned my mother something about the news outside the hospital, 119 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,039 and she was like, oh, you're all over the news. You're all 120 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:39,759 over the newspapers. She gave me a newspaper and I started reading it, 121 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:46,519 and there's all the other victims names in the newspaper, and then they like, 122 00:09:46,039 --> 00:09:52,519 this may be another victim of the Connecticut River Valley serial killer. So 123 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:54,120 that was like crazy reading it in the paper. I'm like, oh my 124 00:09:54,159 --> 00:09:58,000 god, okay, one, I'm all over the news my name. So 125 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:03,120 if he wants, he knows that I'm alive, he knows that I survived 126 00:10:03,639 --> 00:10:07,200 too. If he wants to fy me, he knows what my name is. 127 00:10:07,639 --> 00:10:13,919 And three, I'm the only survivor and I can identify him. It 128 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:18,279 was just layer over a layer of really information that I was reading that was 129 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:24,320 just horrifying to me. On top of everything else. You're also an expectant 130 00:10:24,399 --> 00:10:28,440 mother. Had you had your daughter by the time you got out of the 131 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:33,399 hospital. I had not. I still carried her for another two months after 132 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:39,159 my attack, so I went full term with her. Yeah, back then. 133 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:45,159 The difference between now and that's so different because, like then, they 134 00:10:45,279 --> 00:10:50,360 put all the victims names all over the news and in the newspaper. Today 135 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,279 they don't do that. Thank god. I'm so thankful that they don't do 136 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,799 that for safety of victims today. The only time that there's really a victim's 137 00:10:58,879 --> 00:11:03,759 name is when somebody has been charged or the person that did the harm is 138 00:11:03,799 --> 00:11:09,000 no longer there. It's nice to see that they don't do that anymore. 139 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:16,240 It's layered protection for victims that survive even now. In sexual assault cases, 140 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:22,840 sometimes the victim's name is not given as it moves through the courts. The 141 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,200 suspect is identified, but the victim sometimes is not. She may be given 142 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:31,919 a pseudonym or just referred to by a number or something else. We're more 143 00:11:31,039 --> 00:11:37,759 sensitive, I think, to victim's rights and respecting individuals privacy than we might 144 00:11:37,799 --> 00:11:41,960 have been back then. Exactly, Jen, as a journalist, what is 145 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,840 your main goal for Dark Valley? Clearly it's to get out the story of 146 00:11:46,879 --> 00:11:52,200 the Connecticut River Valley killings and the victims. But what other goals do you 147 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,440 have in mind? What do you hope will ultimately come of this podcast? 148 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:00,039 Thank you, Yeah, great question. As we touched on before, the 149 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,080 primary goal with this is a resurrection story. We want to know these women's 150 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,519 lives as much as their deaths. We want to know what Jane's life is 151 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,879 like. But of course the great hope with any kind of in depth investigative 152 00:12:11,879 --> 00:12:16,960 project is to move the needle in these cases. We want law enforcement to 153 00:12:16,039 --> 00:12:22,519 listen. We want them to reopen investigations. We want them to contact Jane 154 00:12:22,519 --> 00:12:28,480 Buraski and have a conversation with her, and we hope to elicit tips too. 155 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:33,879 The public has power absolutely. What level of cooperation have you gotten from 156 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:39,200 law enforcement? There's at least two states that are part of this. These 157 00:12:39,279 --> 00:12:45,159 cases took place in New Hampshire and in Vermont. What kind of cooperation, 158 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,240 if any, do you get from law enforcement in terms of production or in 159 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:54,080 terms of Jane's personal relationship with law enforcement. I would say both, nothing 160 00:12:54,320 --> 00:13:01,679 in either. Wow. I don't think we're surprised, but wow. Back 161 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,480 in the eighties, after a few of the bodies were found, they did 162 00:13:05,519 --> 00:13:09,720 form a task force between the Hampshire and Vermont and that went on for I 163 00:13:09,759 --> 00:13:11,919 don't know what, was it, a couple of years, Jen, Yeah, 164 00:13:13,159 --> 00:13:16,639 something like that, and then the cases went cold. And when I 165 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:22,840 say they went cold, they went ice cold. They stopped communicating with me. 166 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,519 I even think that the Hampshire and Vermont stopped communicating with each other. 167 00:13:28,039 --> 00:13:33,799 People still they still come with information, new tips. Everybody wants to solve 168 00:13:33,879 --> 00:13:37,360 everything. Now true crime is huge, and when somebody hears a story, 169 00:13:37,399 --> 00:13:43,039 they want to solve it. And I've had people literally come and knock on 170 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:48,080 my door several It still happens. I just had some last year. It 171 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,799 still happens. They come and knock on my door and say, I have 172 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,039 credible information. I've given it to the authorities, and then I don't feel 173 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:00,759 like they're doing anything with it. I want to give you the information I 174 00:14:00,799 --> 00:14:05,000 can't do anything with this information. There's nothing that I can do with it. 175 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,080 You have to try to communicate with the authorities that being conquered and they 176 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,960 just don't get any responses. And I call up and I don't get any 177 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,600 responses. Jen, how hard was it for me to even find out where 178 00:14:18,639 --> 00:14:24,240 my case file was? Who's investigating my case? We still don't technically know 179 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,480 who the lead is on Jane's case. There's a little bit of confusing backstory 180 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,320 to that, but yeah, the long and short of it is that New 181 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:39,279 Hampshire is a bit different than other states. The Attorney General will usually take 182 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:45,120 the investigative lead on major crimes, including homicide, including attempted murder in Jane's 183 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,200 case, So I started by reaching out to the ag of New Hampshire. 184 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:52,200 It's like, basic information, what's the status of these cases? Can you 185 00:14:52,279 --> 00:14:56,960 comment at all? Like really softball sort of things. And I did speak 186 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,519 to the former Associated Term General and he said that Jane's case was not his, 187 00:15:01,879 --> 00:15:05,960 it was not under the purview of the Attorney General. And I was 188 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:11,519 like, what since when. He didn't really elaborate on what had happened in 189 00:15:11,559 --> 00:15:16,840 that process, but he directed me to the municipal police where Jane's attack occurred, 190 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,279 as well as the District Attorney of Cheshire County. Both those agencies did 191 00:15:20,279 --> 00:15:24,679 not have Jane's case. And then during the same time during the winter, 192 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:30,360 like this past winter, Jane, You've got in contact with a detective with 193 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,240 the New Hampshire State Police who said that he had a personal interest in your 194 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:37,000 case. But then when prest said he wasn't the lead either and that it 195 00:15:37,039 --> 00:15:41,840 was under the purview of the Attorney General. So we still don't really This 196 00:15:41,879 --> 00:15:46,799 all sounds very circular, So you're back to thinking it's the Age. Will 197 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,279 they not respond at all to inquiries? Well, they did initially. I 198 00:15:50,279 --> 00:15:56,200 think at this point I'm not getting any further with any comments from the Age 199 00:15:56,399 --> 00:16:00,399 or the State Police. Jane probably will have more luck in the future, 200 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:07,600 hopefully or another journalist perchance. New Hampshire is like notorious for playing their cards 201 00:16:07,639 --> 00:16:11,159 pretty close to the best. The party line is don't speak to the media, 202 00:16:11,399 --> 00:16:15,080 and I hope that changes in the future. We find in the Colonial 203 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:21,000 Parkway murders, my sister's unsolved murder, Kathy and her girlfriend Rebecca Dowski are 204 00:16:21,039 --> 00:16:25,279 the first two victims in the Colonial Parkway murders. Half of those cases are 205 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,480 FBI cases and half of them are Virginia State Police cases. Just due to 206 00:16:29,559 --> 00:16:34,679 jurisdictional issues, they're not good about sharing information. They refuse to speak to 207 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,159 the media. We've had dozens, if not hundreds of inquiries, and for 208 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,679 the most part, all they'll say is the same thing. I could pretty 209 00:16:41,759 --> 00:16:45,120 much write word for word what they're going to say. It's an open case. 210 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,639 We continue to investigate. When we have something to say, we'll have 211 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,960 something to say. It's the same old and even them getting back to the 212 00:16:53,039 --> 00:17:00,159 families is often incredibly difficult. I've certainly called them out on this. They 213 00:17:00,159 --> 00:17:04,960 returned my calls now, but I had to insist, even in impolite ways, 214 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,720 that my phone calls would be returned because I said, I'm going to 215 00:17:08,799 --> 00:17:12,799 call you guys out publicly. In Kathy's case, Kathy and Becky are handled 216 00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:17,519 by the FBI, so I deal with the FBI, which is a challenge 217 00:17:17,519 --> 00:17:22,440 in and of itself. I had hoped that you were getting a little bit 218 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,559 more cooperation from the New Hampshire State Police. Jane. You don't even know 219 00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:30,400 if they're considering your case an open case. Oh god, I can tell 220 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:36,880 there's a story. I mean, with Jen's help, I submitted paperwork to 221 00:17:37,079 --> 00:17:41,640 get access to my case file. And if that's when all of a sudden, 222 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,960 out of the blue, I had talked to this state police tripper and 223 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:51,119 as long as I talked to him for two seconds, and he tells me 224 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:56,319 that he's investigating my case, it's considered an open case, and therefore I 225 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,440 don't have access to my files, my case files, and that's all they 226 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:06,640 have to do. Jennet emailed him and he was supposed to email me back, 227 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:11,920 and we were supposed to meet up back in November December somewhere around there, 228 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,519 and I haven't heard back from him. Jen had received an email from 229 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,519 him, and he did put a little snippet in there. I oh, 230 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,599 Jane, a phone call. I'm so waiting for that phone call. And 231 00:18:22,759 --> 00:18:27,400 here it is six months later. Yeah, I'll give you another example. 232 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:33,000 They called me about three years ago. Instead, we lifted prints off your 233 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,799 car, fingerprints. We would like you to come back in to get refingerprinted. 234 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,759 We think we have a set that is unidentified by anybody else that had 235 00:18:41,799 --> 00:18:45,640 been fingerprinted. And I see, tell me when and where? The state 236 00:18:45,759 --> 00:18:51,920 troopers said I'll call you in about a week or two, we'll schedule something 237 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,759 and then we'll have you come in. That was three years ago and I 238 00:18:55,799 --> 00:19:00,079 still haven't heard back from him. So now I think, I don't want 239 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:06,240 to say they play their little games, but they know that if they contact 240 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:12,359 us for any little information or give any inclination that they're investigating, then it's 241 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:18,279 no longer a cold case. It's an open case. And they can't provide 242 00:19:18,319 --> 00:19:22,279 me with my case files or any case files. So it's it's really frustrating. 243 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,240 I just feel like I get that runaround all the time with it. 244 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:34,200 I really have not had any besides back in November October November, I really 245 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:41,799 have not had any single conversation with any of them in probably twenty years now. 246 00:19:41,279 --> 00:19:45,319 My case was in the Cold Case Unit. It was on their Cold 247 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,119 Case Unit website, but I go now, you go on there and I'm 248 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,440 removed with no explanation, So this, okay, why am I no longer 249 00:19:52,519 --> 00:19:56,559 on this coldcase website? And I never could get an answer to that, 250 00:19:57,519 --> 00:20:03,240 So I don't know. It definitely does. It does feel like that's a 251 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,240 game that law enforcement plays that Okay, you're not doing anything on the case. 252 00:20:07,319 --> 00:20:10,480 So it's cold, right. Oh, no, it's still open. 253 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:12,960 But that's got to be so frustrating. I'm so sorry that's something you have 254 00:20:14,039 --> 00:20:18,000 to deal with. I'm not alone. I'm not alone, but we're hoping 255 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,839 to change that. I'm assuming you don't get that changed a little, or 256 00:20:22,279 --> 00:20:26,920 at least let the public know that this is going on there. This is 257 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:32,920 happening to victims and victims families, and it's wrong and that needs to change. 258 00:20:33,759 --> 00:20:40,039 I'm assuming you don't still have your classic Pontiac Firebird. Oh I don't. 259 00:20:40,079 --> 00:20:42,599 I had it. I did own it for probably four or five years 260 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:47,200 after my attack. I loved that car. But no, we ended up, 261 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:52,599 she died. I had to get rid of it. Plus I was 262 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,880 having my second child, so it was not the most convenient car with car 263 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:07,160 seats. No, it's not really set up. You're listening to Mind over 264 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:15,559 Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors, We're back 265 00:21:15,599 --> 00:21:19,119 here at Mind over Murder. Jen, there are eight victims that have been 266 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:25,480 identified in the Connecticut River Valley case. Do you think in all of the 267 00:21:25,519 --> 00:21:27,920 investigative work that you guys have done, do you think that there may be 268 00:21:29,039 --> 00:21:32,839 more victims? Is that something that you're actively looking into, and is that 269 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,880 something you're going to be soliciting the public for in terms of tips and information. 270 00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:41,680 Oh yeah, absolutely. We knew starting this project that there are probably 271 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:47,599 more than eight women, maybe a man or two potentially that I've been connected 272 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:49,799 or at least we're like in the same area. We are looking at a 273 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:55,680 couple in Maine, one in Massachusetts. And this has come to my attention 274 00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:00,359 through work with one of the original criminal profilers on these cases. Name is 275 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,359 doctor John Philpin, who Jane has a lovely relationship with as well. This 276 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,039 is like his bottom drawer case. He's an older guy. He lives in 277 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:15,480 Vermont, in the woods somewhere, and he's been steadily building other cases that 278 00:22:15,559 --> 00:22:21,119 he thinks are connected. So via that avenue, he's given me names and 279 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,559 I've looked into them. So I think if we get greenlit for a second 280 00:22:23,599 --> 00:22:29,079 season, we're going to explore those in depth. Did doctor Philpon work on 281 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:33,240 this case for one of the agencies back in the day, He did. 282 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,480 Yeah, he was hired by Vermont, I believe, but during the time 283 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:42,960 of the task force between New Hampshire and Vermont, so he came on pretty 284 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:48,680 early on in that task force. And then Jane, do you want to 285 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,839 talk about what he did for you? Yeah, I met him very shortly 286 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,680 after my attack the State Police in NY. I'm sure he brought me up 287 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:03,279 to his office to be hypnotized to a hypnosisssion, to try to see if 288 00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:08,799 I could get any more information about him, a better description and a license 289 00:23:08,839 --> 00:23:12,720 plate number. So yeah, I met with him, and wonderful man, 290 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:18,799 very intriguing and throughout the years we've reconnected quite a few times. I can 291 00:23:18,839 --> 00:23:22,440 call him anytime I need and he's always there. We have a very special 292 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:27,160 relationship. He sounds amazing. So now this is a bright spot. We've 293 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:32,920 been talking for several minutes about the frustration that you've found and now Jen, 294 00:23:33,039 --> 00:23:37,440 I think shares this getting so little traction with the new Hampshire State Police and 295 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:42,400 their lack of follow up. But then doctor Phillman, although not necessarily actively 296 00:23:42,519 --> 00:23:48,680 working the case for a police agency at this moment, is someone who's knowledgeable 297 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,279 about your case, who actually is happy to hear from you. Yes, 298 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,160 but the Hapshire, I'm not sure about Vermont, but over the years and 299 00:23:57,279 --> 00:24:02,519 the Hampshire is pretty much shut him out too. He has offered to give 300 00:24:02,559 --> 00:24:07,359 some more information. He's offered to share some old files that he's had. 301 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,720 He's offered so much, and Dave shut him out. He's as far as 302 00:24:11,759 --> 00:24:15,519 they're concerned, he's retired, so he shouldn't have anything to do with it 303 00:24:15,599 --> 00:24:21,160 anymore. There's so much knowledge there that they're just throwing away. It's so 304 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:26,119 sad, so sad, because John was very involved with all the cases. 305 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,799 He did a lot of investigative work. And he doesn't like the word criminal 306 00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:36,279 profiler, but he was an amazing criminal profiler and he profiled. He went 307 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:41,359 and profiled all these victims in the all the cases, and he has an 308 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:47,799 enormous amount of information. You would think over the years and new eyes and 309 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,079 new people coming into the law enforcement, you would think they would want to 310 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:57,079 talk to him and see what his opinions are and see where he thinks that 311 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:02,200 they should go with the case. New people have come in year after year, 312 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,319 and like Lynda Moore's case, right off the bat, they thought it 313 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:11,160 was her husband, Steve. Now, Steve has cleared himself so many times, 314 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:18,319 rock solid alibi. He is over the years, past three polygraph tests, 315 00:25:18,079 --> 00:25:22,680 he has just cleared himself so many times, and doctor John Philbin's they 316 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:29,000 just keep coming back to him and reinvestigating him in such a waste of resource. 317 00:25:29,039 --> 00:25:33,079 In time, as I was doing some initial research about the case in 318 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:40,440 preparation for our episode today, one name which is familiar to both Bill and 319 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,400 I because it has come up in our cases as well, kept popping out. 320 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,960 Jen, Can you talk about the Michael Nicolau of it all for a 321 00:25:48,039 --> 00:25:52,160 couple of minutes? Are you how much time are you spending with him on 322 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,920 the podcast? And also can you explain to anybody who isn't aware who is 323 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,960 Michael Nikolau and why does he keep coming up over and over again this investigation. 324 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,240 Yes, I'm happy to address the Michael Nikolau question. So, this 325 00:26:04,319 --> 00:26:11,119 was a suspect that was floated a little over a decade ago to Jane by 326 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,880 this private investigator down in Florida. Her name is Lynne Marie Carty, and 327 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:21,160 she had convinced herself that it was Michael Nicolou who was the Connecticut River Valley 328 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:26,480 killer who attacked Jane, and she had been hired in the past, I 329 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,319 want to say it was in the nineties, like early nineties. She had 330 00:26:29,319 --> 00:26:36,880 been hired by Michael Nicolau's first wife, Michelle Nicolou, because she disappeared at 331 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,559 a Massachusetts He took off with their two kids down to Florida, and then 332 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,559 the PI Lynne Marie Carty was hired to try and track down Michelle and her 333 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,880 kids. She ended up finding Michael Nicolou spoke to him on the phone, 334 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,799 according to her, and he said that he didn't know what happened to his 335 00:26:53,839 --> 00:26:56,680 wife. She ran off that sort of thing. Fast forward a couple of 336 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:02,759 years later, Michael nicolol Is remarried to another woman down in Florida. He 337 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,920 shows up to her house on New yor Z Eve with a guitar case full 338 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:11,160 of guns and kills his second wife, his stepdaughter, and himself. And 339 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,039 after this happened, len Marie Cardio was like, what other murders can I 340 00:27:15,079 --> 00:27:19,880 connect him to? And that's what led her to google murders in New England 341 00:27:21,039 --> 00:27:25,119 and that's how all she came across Jane's story and then she got in contact 342 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:33,400 with you, Jane. He sure did, And how did that go, 343 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:40,680 Jane? Or is this something we need to listen to the podcast for? 344 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:49,039 I trusted her at first, she was probably she had so much information, 345 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:55,519 enormous amount of information, more than anybody else I had ever talked to. 346 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,599 And at that time, my case had gone really cold. I wasn't getting 347 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:07,400 any responses or calls from the authorities. And she just came in and she 348 00:28:07,839 --> 00:28:15,839 I was she had a lot of credible sounding information. But and this was 349 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:22,319 the first time I've really heard some real good, credible information, so I 350 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:30,920 thought, And so it just sucked me in. And she this was not 351 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,720 even days, weeks or months, this was a few years. Over the 352 00:28:34,759 --> 00:28:41,000 course of a few years. She really convinced me that, oh, can't 353 00:28:41,039 --> 00:28:45,960 be anybody else but Michael mclaugh can't be nobody else fits. This is the 354 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,599 only person it could be. And she just kinda made him fit into every 355 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:56,839 single little scenario. And I was hopeful. I wanted answers, and so 356 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:02,400 I went along for the ride. Wearer then I started questioning things, some 357 00:29:02,519 --> 00:29:04,759 of the things that she was coming up with, and then I was noticing 358 00:29:04,799 --> 00:29:11,000 that she was very much about media. And then it was like the media 359 00:29:11,119 --> 00:29:17,160 just got more and more, and then I saw an agenda in her because 360 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,519 then she was talking about a lifetime movie, she was talking about a book. 361 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,599 But these lifetime movies in this book was not gonna be generating me any 362 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,799 kind of I wasn't gonna see anything out of it. These were her projects. 363 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:37,039 I started questioning a lot of stuff and started really standing back and looking 364 00:29:37,079 --> 00:29:41,839 at everything as a whole with an open mind. And as soon as I 365 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:48,599 started questioning her about certain things, she got defensive, and she got really 366 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:53,759 angry, and we ended up partying ways. It's unfortunate that Michael Nikolaus's name 367 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,599 is out there so much. I hate it. You know. She had 368 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:02,799 me in a very vulnerable spot, and it was feeding me all this stuff. 369 00:30:02,839 --> 00:30:06,640 If you don't say it's Michael Nikolau, nobody's gonna take you seriously. 370 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,200 All the information is here, Jane, it's him, trust me. But 371 00:30:10,279 --> 00:30:14,079 if you don't say that it's him, nobody's going to take you seriously. 372 00:30:14,359 --> 00:30:17,920 So she convinced me, over the course of a few years, to say, 373 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,880 Okay, maybe you know it was Michael Nikolau. I did that reluctantly. 374 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:26,000 It wasn't like I immediately thought it was him, but she convinced me, 375 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:34,279 and it's something that I regret, but I have since move forward. 376 00:30:34,559 --> 00:30:40,400 I've explained myself about the whole situation. I still have people say, we 377 00:30:40,519 --> 00:30:44,440 thought this was solved, we thought it was Michael Nikolau, which is so 378 00:30:44,519 --> 00:30:49,119 frustrating because these cases are still unsolved. My case is still unsolved. Even 379 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:55,440 the information given to the authorities and stuff. It wasn't Michael Nicolau. It 380 00:30:55,559 --> 00:31:00,440 really wasn't. There's nothing forensically, there's nothing, nor prince, no DNA, 381 00:31:00,799 --> 00:31:07,359 nothing to connect him to these cases. Absolutely nothing. It's just her 382 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:15,599 hearsay, and you know how that goes per se isn't always it always it's 383 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:22,000 not true. So I hope that I explained it so so you can understand 384 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:27,559 the best I could. In the odd not so coincidental department. Lynn Marie 385 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:33,599 Carty attempted to do the same thing in the Colonial Parkway murders in about twenty 386 00:31:33,839 --> 00:31:41,720 ten. She's a very good researcher, and she does find interesting perhaps intersections 387 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:48,920 of Michael Nikolau, putting him at or near places where unsolved Thomas sides had 388 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,240 taken place. That part gets very intriguing. Where it begins to fall apart 389 00:31:53,359 --> 00:31:57,799 is she's one of these people who is very selective about the information she puts 390 00:31:57,799 --> 00:32:04,000 forward. If some thing comes out that is not consistent with her theory that 391 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:09,200 oh, Michael Nikolai was responsible for your sister Kathy Thomas's death, Rebekkadowski's death, 392 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,720 and the other murders in the Colonial Parkway murders. If something comes up 393 00:32:13,759 --> 00:32:16,400 that doesn't fit, she finds a way to put that aside, and she 394 00:32:16,599 --> 00:32:22,079 only focuses on the things that are consistent with her theory. And of course 395 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:28,519 I'm not an investigator, but we have worked with some incredible investigators, profilers, 396 00:32:28,559 --> 00:32:31,519 criminologists, and so on. They have said, that's exactly what you 397 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:37,039 cannot do. You want to take all of the information, good, bad 398 00:32:37,079 --> 00:32:42,119 and indifferent, consistent with your theory or things that might break down your theory, 399 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,160 because that's the only way you're going to figure out should this person remain 400 00:32:45,319 --> 00:32:50,960 on the short list of suspects that we regard as very viable or should they 401 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,279 be put on the less viable list We continue to move on if you're able 402 00:32:55,319 --> 00:33:00,640 to eliminate people that actually has value as well. So if Nikolaus not the 403 00:33:00,759 --> 00:33:07,000 right offender, then you know you're still looking exactly what line Marie does is 404 00:33:07,039 --> 00:33:10,400 it? She's very much out for herself. She and I do get out 405 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:15,680 on the Colonial Parkway murders. I remember walking through an airport at one point. 406 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,039 I was on a business trip and I was on the phone with her. 407 00:33:19,039 --> 00:33:21,960 I was changing plans and I had some time, and I remember arguing 408 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,480 with her, and I said, Len Marie, focus on what you can 409 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:30,920 prove, and stop trying to connect Michael Nickel out to every murder on the 410 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:37,799 East Coast from the Lindbergh baby on forward. She'd keep finding another murder or 411 00:33:37,799 --> 00:33:39,559 a group of murders, and look, they're two hundred and fifty thousand cold 412 00:33:39,599 --> 00:33:44,160 case homicides in the United States. There's plenty of murders to go around. 413 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,720 She'd say, Oh, I just found a murderer in North Carolina. He's 414 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:52,319 responsible for that, And there'd be enough basic information that she'd say, oh, 415 00:33:52,319 --> 00:33:55,400 he was there at that time. Now. The weird thing is she 416 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:01,759 was able to put his wife having a baby Virginia an hour away from where 417 00:34:01,759 --> 00:34:07,319 the Colonial Parkway murders took place in nineteen eighty six. So that was an 418 00:34:07,359 --> 00:34:13,360 interesting idea and probably worth exploring. But then she would put aside anything that 419 00:34:13,559 --> 00:34:16,920 didn't line up with her theory of the case, and she actually had him 420 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:22,360 killing everyone from Maine to Florida. It was crazy in Texas, Texas and 421 00:34:22,519 --> 00:34:27,480 Texas too, Yeah, Texas too. And one of the things I found 422 00:34:27,519 --> 00:34:31,079 was when I reached out to people in law enforcement who she referred me to, 423 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:36,280 they didn't even want to talk to me because I was coming in and 424 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,079 saying, Limri Ricardi suggested I reach out to you, and they were like, 425 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:45,440 oh please. You could tell they weren't taking her seriously as an investigator 426 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:50,199 because of these things that she was doing, and she was clearly. She 427 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,400 told me she wanted her own television series, she wanted a movie about her, 428 00:34:54,559 --> 00:34:59,239 and I was thinking, how does this help the victims of the Colonial 429 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:04,199 Parkway murder? You doing a television show about how fabulous you are? What 430 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,679 the heck does that have to do with solving these cases? Oh, it's 431 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:12,559 so true. Totally agree with everything, And yeah, that's exactly what she 432 00:35:12,639 --> 00:35:15,960 did. That's why when I questioned something that didn't fit, Oh, she 433 00:35:16,039 --> 00:35:22,840 would get so defensive, so defensive. It's too bad. It's too bad 434 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,519 that his name is so much out there? Is she? When she started 435 00:35:25,559 --> 00:35:30,840 getting involved with his son, I really wanted her to get his son some 436 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:35,800 help. And as soon as I started talking about that she was just all 437 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,719 about the media with Nick, and unfortunately Nick never got the help and he's 438 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:45,159 no longer with us, and it's sad. The whole thing is sad. 439 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,719 Jen. As the first season of Dark Valley unfolds, how are you all 440 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:54,239 going about highlighting the various suspects well also of course keeping your main focus on 441 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:59,280 the victims and their stories. How are you arranging the podcast so that you 442 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:04,599 can spend time on both things. I would say the first season is front 443 00:36:04,639 --> 00:36:08,800 loaded with stories about these women, what their lives were, where they went 444 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,519 in town, the people they knew. We get to hear from their friends, 445 00:36:13,559 --> 00:36:16,760 their family, their colleagues, all sorts of things. And then interwoven 446 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:21,760 in there is a couple of the suspects that came up early on in the 447 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,639 investigation, so we do touch on those, if only to put them to 448 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,920 bed. Like, we can't be definitive about each person that comes up, 449 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,760 but we can definitely explore the reasons why they might be a good person of 450 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,280 interest and definitely why they might not. And then I'd say, after we 451 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:44,800 go through Jane's story, the eight other women's stories, then we come out 452 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,480 the other end, which comes up into kind of a real time investigation where 453 00:36:49,599 --> 00:36:53,559 I posit a theory about two brothers who lived in the town of Claremont who 454 00:36:53,599 --> 00:36:59,760 are connected to another famous missing person's case in New Hampshire. And then we 455 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,400 have of a surprised person of interest that comes up at the end that I 456 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:09,360 think we'll probably break some people's brains. Oh oh, I'm intrigue. Now. 457 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:15,199 At the time we record this, you've had how many episodes have appeared 458 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:21,880 on your free subscription? There are two public episodes available, there are seven 459 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:27,440 behind a subscription which will then become public. And there are twelve episodes in 460 00:37:27,559 --> 00:37:30,960 title that will all be blick and this will all be part of the first 461 00:37:31,039 --> 00:37:37,000 season. Correct. Yeah, And then a wonderful little piece of synchronicity. 462 00:37:37,119 --> 00:37:40,440 I opened up an email from crime Con this morning and there's Dark Valley, 463 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,719 Jen and Jane, and I was like, oh my god, we're interviewing 464 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:49,800 these amazing women today. Tell us what's going on with crime Con. Oh 465 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,840 my goodness. Yeah, this all came about pretty quickly. They were very 466 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:59,360 kind. Jane doesn't even know so Kevin and Elsa, the two people who 467 00:37:59,519 --> 00:38:02,880 run Cry, We're kind enough to glast out our live virtual show, which 468 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:08,079 is happening this Thursday APM on the crawl Space YouTube channel. Jane will be 469 00:38:08,119 --> 00:38:10,760 there. I will be there, Tom and Lance will be there, and 470 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,239 we're going to discuss behind the scenes of the show. I'm sure people have 471 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,800 a lot of questions for you, Jane, And then we were just invited 472 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:23,519 to crime Con and today we're looking forward to seeing you down there and Orlando 473 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:30,880 self. Yes, so will you do a presentation at crime Con in September 474 00:38:31,199 --> 00:38:37,800 on Dark Valley and telling everybody what's going on with the victims, the case, 475 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:42,559 the show. That's the plan. The details have not been hammered out, 476 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,400 so I don't want to like misspeak or anything, but yeah, that's 477 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,199 the plan we're going to be. I think there's like a podcast row stage. 478 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,320 Yeah, the stage. Yeah, okay, Yeah, that was really 479 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:58,880 cool. Yeah, that's what we're shooting for. I like it. This 480 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:04,880 is very exciting. Yeah. Are you excited, Jane, Yes, I 481 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,079 am. It can be a lot, now, it can be a lot, 482 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:13,719 I can. I am excited. This would be my first crime con. 483 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:15,480 Oh, it's great, You're gonna love it. It's a lot of 484 00:39:15,519 --> 00:39:19,800 fun. We did to crime Fest a couple of weeks ago, and that 485 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,760 was awesome, and so yeah, I'm pretty excited about going there. People 486 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:28,679 have to be excited to meet you. And you are an amazing person and 487 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,559 a survivor, and you have a very compelling story to tell. And I 488 00:39:31,599 --> 00:39:37,400 know you've said on the podcast and in other interviews that you feel that as 489 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,320 a survivor, you want to make sure that the victim's story is told. 490 00:39:42,039 --> 00:39:45,159 So I have a feeling people must respond to you in a very warm and 491 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:51,159 supportive way. There's been so many people that have approached me, and they've 492 00:39:51,199 --> 00:39:54,280 all been so nice and caring, and it's been awesome talking. I've met 493 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:59,679 so many different people, it has been awesome. I'm glad that I'm able 494 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,239 to tell my story. I'm grateful every day that I get to wake up 495 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:07,400 and I get to tell my story because the others don't have a voice. 496 00:40:07,679 --> 00:40:12,960 And just being able to meet so many different people that's been awesome. And 497 00:40:13,079 --> 00:40:17,360 being on this journey with Jen and cross based Media, it's just it's been 498 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,880 awesome. I just want to jump in really quickly, like short of what 499 00:40:22,079 --> 00:40:27,519 happened to Jane almost forty years ago. While interesting, Jane is a magnetic 500 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,880 person, like people just want to talk to you otherwise. She's so warm, 501 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:36,119 she's so kind, she's so quick to laugh, she's so funny, 502 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,840 like people are just gravitate towards you, Jane. So I think being in 503 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:44,119 this place and in this time, telling your story, telling what happened to 504 00:40:44,159 --> 00:40:47,079 you, being an advocate for the other women's cases, trying to change what 505 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:52,280 happens in law enforcement, it's all in line with just who you are as 506 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:57,199 a person. No, thank you, thank you. Oh you made me 507 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:02,679 blush. Ahead and give our listeners information on where they can find Dark Valley, 508 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:07,840 both the public version and the subscription version. You can find Dark Valley 509 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:13,559 wherever you listen to podcasts, Apple, Spotify, etc. We do have 510 00:41:13,599 --> 00:41:16,719 an Apple subscription where you can listen to the first seven episodes. I'm going 511 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:21,440 to take a little interim break and then we'll be back again with the rest 512 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,039 of the twelve episodes, but all of those will be public throughout the summer. 513 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:30,039 Fantastic. The podcast is Dark Valley. Thank you, Jen, Thank 514 00:41:30,079 --> 00:41:32,599 you Jane. We are so looking forward to seeing you at Crime Con in 515 00:41:32,639 --> 00:41:37,159 September. That's too. Thank you so much. Thank you. That's going 516 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,239 to do it for this episode of Mind Over Murder. Thank you so much 517 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:53,760 for listening. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production 518 00:41:53,840 --> 00:42:00,440 of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers Bill Thomas and Kristin 519 00:42:00,559 --> 00:42:06,400 Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by 520 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,760 Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 521 00:42:12,559 --> 00:42:15,480 You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also 522 00:42:15,559 --> 00:42:21,039 follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you 523 00:42:21,079 --> 00:42:24,800 can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for 524 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,280 listening to mind Over Murder.