WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:05.679 How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy? Become 2 00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:10.519 a patron For just five dollars a month you get access to a private RSS 3 00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:14.560 feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month will get 4 00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:19.640 you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign up now at Patreon 5 00:00:19.879 --> 00:00:24.280 dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey, Carl and Richard here with your twenty 6 00:00:24.359 --> 00:00:28.920 twenty four NDC schedule. Will be at as many NDC conferences as possible this 7 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:33.359 year, and you should consider it tending no matter what. Ndcoslow is happening 8 00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:38.600 June tenth through the fourteenth. Get your tickets at ndcoslow dot com. The 9 00:00:38.679 --> 00:00:43.679 Copenhagen Developers Festival happens August twenty sixth through the thirtieth. Early bird discount ends 10 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:51.520 April twenty sixth. Tickets at Cphdevfest dot com. Ndcporto is happening October fourteenth 11 00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:57.840 through the eighteenth. The early bird discount ends June fourteenth. Tickets at Ndcporto 12 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:14.280 dot com. And we'll see you there, we hope. Hey, welcome 13 00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:17.480 back to dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin, an amateur campbell we are 14 00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:23.359 gearing up for some stuff here are we not? This is definitely some stuff. 15 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:26.760 The conferences is coming on again, right, like we have here there 16 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:30.120 and Yon it's spring, right, you have an announcement about dev Intersection, 17 00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:34.040 do you know? Oh? Yes, dev Intersection got moved. We were 18 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:38.599 supposed to be the second week of May and now we're down in the second 19 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:45.560 week of September. So we had some opportunities there and to do some more 20 00:01:45.640 --> 00:01:48.400 announcement related things. So it was like, hey, if we could just 21 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:51.879 move it to September, and we were able to make a deal with the 22 00:01:52.120 --> 00:01:55.680 MGM Grand So Teta. I know it's frustrating for a few folks. We've 23 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:59.640 been trying to help everyone else to be comfortable and make it reasonable and fair. 24 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:02.359 But yeah, I'm what it does to the contents, Dac, you're 25 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:05.959 gonna be really excited. Yeah, I'm glad we were able to do this, 26 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:07.680 so it'd be a much better show in the fall, I think, 27 00:02:07.759 --> 00:02:13.719 so and so dev intersection dot com. Yeah, all right, Well let's 28 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:23.439 roll the crazy music for better no Framework awesome? Alright, man, what 29 00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:30.400 do you got right? This one came from Appy Next alumni, those trouble 30 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:36.479 Makers troublemakers Brian McKay, who's always looking for new AI stuff, as you 31 00:02:36.520 --> 00:02:46.680 know. So this is a an AI uh enabled or empowered command terminal called 32 00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:50.639 WARP. Go to warp dot dev. Great you are ol holy man. 33 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:54.280 How about that? Huh warp dot dev. And so it says WARP is 34 00:02:54.319 --> 00:03:00.000 the terminal reimagine with AI and collaborative tools for better productivity, and it does 35 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:02.360 doesn't exist yet. You have to join the Windows wait list. Oh, 36 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:07.759 I see you if you're on Windows. But just take a just gander for 37 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:12.400 a few seconds at what they're doing there in the terminal. It's like an 38 00:03:12.439 --> 00:03:15.719 animated gift for a little video or something. Yeah, I just wonder how 39 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:17.840 real is that? Like I could make cool texts few out, but I 40 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:22.639 have to go on the wait list. Yeah yeah, and get this built 41 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:29.520 with Rust well Orsinovich approves. You know, it's a pretty low level language. 42 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:32.280 You know, it sort of straddles the line a little more safer than 43 00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:37.039 C plus plus, but still that kind of performance. So I'm laughing because 44 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:43.039 Rust is making the news. Every once in a while I see news stories 45 00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:46.960 that Microsoft is not abandoning C sharp for Rust. You heard it here first 46 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:51.400 because there was some you know, there was just some rumors and stuff that, 47 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:57.120 oh no, there was some c sharp services in Azure that we're being 48 00:03:57.159 --> 00:04:00.080 rewritten in Rust. Yeah, because you think about it from Microsoft's perspective, 49 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:05.840 those services, the less compute they consume, the less it costs Microsoft to 50 00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:09.599 operate, Right, we should be thanking them. Well, they could have 51 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:12.479 rewritten them in C plus plus, but it would just cost more, So 52 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:14.960 they rewrite them and Rust. And it just goes to show you there's a 53 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:17.839 language for everything out there, right, yeah. Yeah, and for macro 54 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:23.560 you know, super scale cloud stuff where you can see utilization so high that 55 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:27.920 every cycle counts, that's worth doing a rewrite like that. It's just funny 56 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:30.839 how people react, you know, Oh my god, Sea sharp is going 57 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:34.279 away. Yeah, it's not. There's not one language for exactly all right, 58 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:38.800 Well that's what I got warped at dev and check it out at warp 59 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:42.680 speed on your own time. Now back to you, Richard, who's talking 60 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:45.439 to us Grady coppin te for show eighteen ninety two, pretty recent, the 61 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:47.519 one we did with Michelle Duke talking about get Hub co pilot. I think 62 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:50.800 we'll have a little AI conversation today and so you know, get hubgup pilot. 63 00:04:50.839 --> 00:04:54.879 It's sort of the original for devs and Aaron Morgan wrote a bit of 64 00:04:54.920 --> 00:04:57.319 a missive I'm not going to hold that against you, Eric, because I 65 00:04:57.319 --> 00:05:00.519 thought it was very intelligent, But he said, I really enjoyed this episode 66 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:03.399 with Sheell's great is always and I love the call out to jet Brain's Rider, 67 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:06.800 as it's often not mentioned when Microsoft Stack is being discussed. I got 68 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:11.079 nothing bad to say about jet Brains or a Rider. They're great. A 69 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:14.279 large part of my works out of soci comes from creating a solution from whole 70 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:17.079 cloth and figuring out the problems as I go. I'm not a developer because 71 00:05:17.079 --> 00:05:19.920 it pays well, but the fun of it, the challenge of it, 72 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:24.959 prompting an AI to generate my vision doesn't have the same appeal. Although I'm 73 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:29.279 sure went to my employer since it means faster delivery, I feel like more 74 00:05:29.319 --> 00:05:30.839 time to be creative. Argument is a bit of a crock. No employer 75 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:33.399 is going to say great work or complete debt. Piece of work early. 76 00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:36.560 Now, think creatively on something else for the next week and stead it'll be 77 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:41.199 here's the next task, Get on with it. I do pay for GPD 78 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:44.680 for and have basically used it as a drop in replacement for stack overflow. 79 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:47.879 I've heard that before. Yeah, also, as I'm not great with complex 80 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:51.800 EQL queries and the ability to describe tables to get a full query back as 81 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:56.800 a massive time saver, I also use sveelt, and to Carl's point, 82 00:05:57.079 --> 00:06:00.639 I know just not to ask for anything on sveelt because it's of the project. 83 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:02.040 But the twenty twenty one is largely they have no use of me today. 84 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:06.399 Yep. But I sit here having refactored a JavaScript function that I couldn't 85 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:11.759 find the solution to using Google. After dropping in the function signature, GPT 86 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:14.959 said that I needed to use a type alias and gave an example. So 87 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:18.319 I've learned what a type alias is typescript. The code is tidier and more 88 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:21.680 maintainable, and I don't feel like I didn't code the method. I think 89 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:25.560 this is the crux of it. I enjoy learning new development things, and 90 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:29.720 this aspect of work being diminished with AI auto prompting. Yeah, I don't 91 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:32.079 see how it was diminished at all. I think you had a very polite 92 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:36.519 rubber duck helping you there. Yeah. Well, the problem comes when chat 93 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:43.720 GPT offers solutions that are old, right, and you go and you look, 94 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:46.879 and I just did this the other day. It offered a solution and 95 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:49.079 I went and I checked it out, checked out the nugat packages that it 96 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:54.279 suggested, and they've been deprecated. And so I said, hey, these 97 00:06:54.360 --> 00:06:57.399 packages have been deprecated. Is there anything else? And it's like, oh, 98 00:06:57.480 --> 00:07:01.240 yes, more modern design. Would you use this? You know? 99 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:03.800 Okay, why didn't you tell me that in the first place, you idiot. 100 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:09.160 So Aaron wraps up with I want to use AI like a pod of 101 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:13.879 nearby co workers that don't mind being interrupted. Beautiful description, But I don't 102 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:15.720 want to use AI like I'm a project manager directing a team of devs who'll 103 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:19.439 do my bidding, but ultimately reading disconnected for the process of development. I 104 00:07:19.480 --> 00:07:23.759 feel like in the long run, AI coding will be a bit of a 105 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:28.279 pyrrhic victory to the personal satisfaction and sense of fulfillment we get from working as 106 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:30.000 software engineers. I don't know, you know, in the end, I 107 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:34.839 was trying to get to the solution too, you know. I'm not opposed 108 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:38.319 to power apps for the same reason A lot of people go, oh my 109 00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:41.199 god, no code Are you crazy. It's like I'm just trying to deliver 110 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:44.560 results, man, right, that's what's important. Yep, So Aerin, 111 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:46.040 thank you so much for your comment. A copy of music codey is on 112 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:48.000 its way to you. And if you'd like a copy of music Code by 113 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:50.839 I read a comment on the website at don at Rocks dot com or on 114 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:54.000 the facebooks. We publish every show there and if you comment there and a 115 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:56.600 reading on the show, we'll send you copy of music Code. And we 116 00:07:56.720 --> 00:07:59.759 definitely like to see you on Twitter. Of course, we've been there for 117 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:03.680 a long time or x or whatever it is today, but the real cool 118 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:07.439 kids are hanging out. I'm Mastodon. I'm at Carl Franklin at tech hub 119 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:09.879 dot social, at average Campbell at Masodon dot social, and of course you 120 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:13.480 can find all the ways you can contact me at Carl Franklin dot com. 121 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:18.879 Okay, let's get to our guest today. Really excited to have Carl guides 122 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:26.319 on. He is a freelance software architect and developer owner of Kobasoft GmbH. 123 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:30.839 Is Carl. Is there an acronym way to say that? Do you say 124 00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:37.039 gumba or do you just say GmbH? Ohh okay, like we say inc 125 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:41.519 for incorporated r LLC. All right, So that's at Kobasoft dot Net Coba 126 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:46.080 s o ft dot net building advanced applications for their clients with c sharp, 127 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:52.200 SQL and web technologies. He has been working for Microsoft, Siemens Carl Zeis 128 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:58.600 microscopy, banks and industry. His main topics are c sharp web standards, 129 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:03.759 generators, performance and accessibility. He's currently working on an IoT project with sensor 130 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:09.480 data, flexible calculations and the ClickHouse database, and a large in house application 131 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:16.639 for an industrial client with asp net SQL server, CRM document Management, product 132 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:20.720 planning, materials and management. He's author of cobosoft log, a fast and 133 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:26.879 easy to use logging library and log viewer, and he's using naturally speaking intensely. 134 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:33.879 He's been since two thousand and two. Welcome Carl, and you're a 135 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:35.919 longtime dot net rocks listener, are you not, Yes, it's about two 136 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:41.799 thousand and six. My started programing with Fishop about two thousand and two two 137 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:46.440 thousand and three, and later I discovered your podcast and then enjoyed it a 138 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:48.919 lot. Yeah, and the kind of things that you're into, you're kind 139 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:52.639 of a generalist. It looks like you know, you're all over the map. 140 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:54.879 You do a lot of things. Yes, yeah, very cool. 141 00:09:56.000 --> 00:10:01.200 So we're talking about AI in speech and all of that stuff, and you've 142 00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:05.879 been it says you've been using Dragon Naturally Speaking, which you know isn't. 143 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:09.399 I don't know if it was, it'd be considered AI. But it's certainly 144 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:13.720 been around a long time and did a really really good job, and I 145 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:18.080 guess still does. Does Naturally Speaking use AI on the back end? Now, 146 00:10:18.519 --> 00:10:22.960 yes, it is the two versions. So it's a testa person and 147 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:28.480 so cloud version and so Cloud version is AI based, but it is more 148 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:33.600 an AI targeted to voice recognition. It's not like a check chippity, it's 149 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:37.559 just to improve the quality. Right. Remember that story I told of the 150 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:41.879 African gray parrot named Timmy that we wired up at the X ten that was 151 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:48.799 a Dragon Naturally Speaking board in the in the nineties hard hardware. Yeah cool. 152 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:52.360 Yeah, So he doesn't know that story, but basically Richard had a 153 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:56.720 parrot with his friends and they they taught it to, you know, shut 154 00:10:56.759 --> 00:11:01.519 the blinds and turn on the TV with the naturally speaking turn off its own 155 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:05.080 on its own lights. So you know, you just wanted to let the 156 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:07.840 parent have control of environment. We just didn't know the parrot like to go 157 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:11.919 to bed early. He'd shut everything off at like seven, and if you 158 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:13.200 try to turn it back off, he'd turned it back off again. I 159 00:11:13.240 --> 00:11:16.120 remember you saying he used to do the car alarm. Oh yeah, he 160 00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:20.120 need car alarms perfectly because didn't matter what time of the day or night. 161 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:24.600 If he did the car alarm, you got up. Very cool, So, 162 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:28.320 Jimmy, yeah, you could do the same with the naturally Speaking. 163 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:33.879 You could do your house automation and connective access to it and so on, 164 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:37.919 because it's programma a programma. So yeah, So you use naturally speaking because 165 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:41.080 it's the best thing that has been out there, or you've been using it 166 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:46.039 a long time or both both. Yes, I hadn't RSI a long time 167 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:50.759 ago, say about two thousand and four, and then I started using speech 168 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:54.879 input. I later solved this problem, but did the speech input proved to 169 00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:58.639 be very helpful to me. And so, as you know, you can 170 00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:03.480 use it for basic dictator, but it is also possible to use it for 171 00:12:03.559 --> 00:12:07.720 programming, for example, And this is what I do in a lot. 172 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:11.759 I'm using it together, like for example, the chet chippyt say, I've 173 00:12:11.799 --> 00:12:16.679 got my chet chippydy window here open, and instead tape of typing all the 174 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.840 long prompts, I can just dictate the prompts right, And so it's way 175 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:28.679 faster. It's like it's more like community communication. Yes, I've telled it 176 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:33.440 something presenter, it responds. You could even let it read the response, 177 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:37.960 but I'm not using it. It would take longer. Yeah, yeah, 178 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:41.159 I think we can read faster than we can listen, right a lot. 179 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:46.559 Yeah. Interestingly, Mark Miller was spent the weekend at my house this last 180 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:50.600 weekend and he was showing me something he's going to show off at build in 181 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:56.679 Code Rush, which is basically speech commands, like you hold down the control 182 00:12:56.759 --> 00:12:58.759 key televisual studio what you want to do, and it does it, and 183 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:05.240 you can even there's even macros to write code and things like that. It's 184 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:11.080 just unbelievable. I've heard about this, But naturally speaking is much more flexible. 185 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:15.759 You can use it for any application, so you could control Windows or 186 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:20.399 text processing or even visual studio or whatever you like. And so I've got 187 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:26.159 a lot of commands, like thousands or so, and i can controlling nearly 188 00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:30.039 everything like when I start when I'm using visual Studio, I can say okay, 189 00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:33.679 build solution, and it will just build my solution. Yeah, and 190 00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:35.879 so on. Or if I want to insert the statement, if statement, 191 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:41.200 I say the properate command and we'll just type it and it doesn't matter if 192 00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:46.080 it's one line or one hundred lines. So are you actually speaking code or 193 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:52.720 you're giving commands the studio both. It's it's completely flexible. Say the simplest 194 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:58.039 use would be the just for documentation. Say I've got a summary head above 195 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:03.480 my method, and I would just dictate the summary instead of typing it out. 196 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:07.960 The moves my hands and it's way faster. It's really as fast as 197 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:13.000 we are talking right now. Probably write longer comments that way because because the 198 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.480 other side of this is you're also effectively manifesting what you're going to code by 199 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:20.320 describing it. Yeah, exactly. I got a question about microphones. I 200 00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:24.759 noticed that you're using like a dictation kind of microphone with you know, the 201 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:31.799 MC comes over to your mouth headset, but I use the I have an 202 00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:37.840 Amazon Echo here and it's been pretty good about being able to pick up things 203 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:41.320 across the room. You can even whisper to it. And I never had 204 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:46.000 that experience with any Windows based kind of you know, just using a regular 205 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:52.840 microphone. Do you think that there's like stuff in there to cancel noise and 206 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:56.440 you know, figure out exactly what I mean. That's the thing that's great 207 00:14:56.440 --> 00:15:00.679 about Echo. Do you do you always use this headset or have you found 208 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:05.879 other microphones that work with ambients, you know, like an ambient microphone. 209 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:09.600 I think it's exactly as you say, so AMASO and Alexa will have some 210 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:15.720 noise canceling and additional tools to improve the noise quality. But the big difference 211 00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:22.559 is that Alexa has to listen to say hundreds of words, and naturally speaking 212 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:30.440 vocabularies about hundreds of thousands of words, so there's some much bigger risk for 213 00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:35.200 errors. So it's easily to confuse a personal name with the standard world and 214 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:39.120 so on. And I've noticed the same thing with that girl. Yeah yeah, 215 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:41.480 yeah, yeah. Ask it a question and it gives you an answer 216 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:43.919 based on something you didn't even say. Okay, yeah, but it answers 217 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:50.279 enthusiastically, oh yeah, correctly, and it won't stop. I brought it 218 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:54.639 into the house and Kelly got used to it. But after a while, 219 00:15:54.679 --> 00:15:58.159 you know, when I say a she starts to give it the keyword and 220 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:04.600 then stop to stop barking. Kelly says, shut up, and it works. 221 00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:07.840 But hearing lies the real issue. I find what you know, watching 222 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:11.600 voice systems being used in general, people don't mind it if it works the 223 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:15.720 first time, but as soon as it doesn't work the first time, then 224 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:18.879 they feel done using it, so they don't want to use it anymore. 225 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:22.399 Yeah, you're right. This was the case like ten years ago or fifteen 226 00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:26.600 years ago. When you started dictation, you really had to this is my 227 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:32.120 next sentence. You know, you had to be very except on your pronunciation 228 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:38.399 and gaps between the words. Nowadays it just like talking. It would it 229 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:42.559 would normally transcribe what we are saying. Now you can just record it and 230 00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:47.960 it would transcribe the text. And so so they've actually changed the underlying model 231 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:52.960 in naturally speaking, to use the more contemporary libraries. Yeah, nearly every 232 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:56.720 version, say, whenever you got a new version from twelve to thirteen or 233 00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:02.799 fourteen, fifteen sixteen, it always improved recognition quality because I remember having to 234 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:07.240 train a dragon board back in the day, and then you know that just 235 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:10.640 sort of went away almost a decade ago when you think about Siri and so 236 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:14.119 forth, like training was longer needed. Yeah, you're right when theow speech 237 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:18.079 wants you to train it to speak the paragraphs and stuff, and all of 238 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:22.759 these things now that are cloud based, like even Google Speech recognition is great. 239 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:27.000 I mean it just uses the cloud, but it doesn't doesn't require training. 240 00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:33.119 Do you have a keyword that you say, like when I use the 241 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:36.920 Amazon Echo or do you just press a particular button when you want to give 242 00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:41.200 a command? No, it's normally it's turned on when I'm working. So 243 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:45.880 I have a special keyboard button, but it's really you can define any buttons 244 00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:49.400 as this button. So I've got a keyboard button. When I press it, 245 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:53.240 it will turn onto microphone. And then when it's running, you can 246 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:57.039 say okay, microphone off, and then it's off and you have to press 247 00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:00.039 the button again. But you can say okay, go to sleep, then 248 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:03.319 continue listening. They say okay, wake up. Then it will come back 249 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:07.599 again. So it's more less like I say, but when I'm really working, 250 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:11.359 it's turned on all the time. Are you worried that somebody's gonna like 251 00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:15.279 barge into the room and say, you know, order five thousand pounds of 252 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:19.400 cement from Amazon. You know, it doesn't have this kind of connection. 253 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:22.680 It just will type it out. Has that ever happened to you, though? 254 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:26.559 Has somebody like gotten in the room and tried to screw everything up for 255 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:29.839 you as a joke? No, Once I met a big error. I 256 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:34.000 dictated in English a Trauman text and this was very bad. Oh that must 257 00:18:34.039 --> 00:18:38.759 be interesting and that without checking it okay, but we're not never do it 258 00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:42.119 again. That's pretty funny. Well, do you know there's another aspect of 259 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:45.839 this that I'm that appeals to me, which is that visual studio is a 260 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:51.119 difficult application to navigate. You know, it's like the cockpit of a seven 261 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:55.240 forty seven in there and then and the number of times I know it can 262 00:18:55.319 --> 00:18:59.640 do this thing, I just can't find the menu item. So the idea 263 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:03.400 that I could say this is what I want to do it and the speech 264 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:07.279 control system that can navigate the tool for me, that's very compelling. Like 265 00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:12.000 that's a ton of time saved rather than flailing around in MANYUS. Yeah, 266 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:17.279 that's exactly the point. Say I would say okay, synchronized class feew and 267 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:21.559 it would pop up the class feel for the current class or method and similar 268 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:26.599 stuff. Okay, show Solution Explorer it would show the solution SPRA or debugging 269 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:30.279 Locals it would show the debugging Locals window. So it's like I've wrote it 270 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:33.640 in my email. It's like a third hand. Keep my right hand on 271 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:37.279 the mouth and the left hand on the function keys for example, and all 272 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:41.680 the typing would be done by naturally speaking by the voice. How where did 273 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:45.160 those hooks come from? Did you do that or is that already available? 274 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:49.920 It depends on what you're doing. Say if you were a writer and would 275 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:55.559 write a book, you would have thousands of commands already available, like make 276 00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:59.160 that boat or make that italic and go to the top, go to the 277 00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:03.759 bottom, select word. All of this is pretty fined and it's working fine. 278 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:08.200 And let's say Microsoft Word and word Pad. But when you're having specific 279 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:14.920 programs, like let's say Visual Studio, you have to define your own commands. 280 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:18.359 There's no there are no pre build commands. But on the other hand, 281 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:22.599 it's very easy to do. It's like a huge shortcut manager. You 282 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:29.119 can you can write or dictate a command name and the end. Then for 283 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:33.640 example, you assign keystrokes and it would just repeat the keystrokes, but it's 284 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:37.559 a little bit advanced though. You can say okay, press all a, 285 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:41.440 then wait half a second, then press Charlie and so on, so it's 286 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:48.920 like a huge keystroke macro manager. But you you don't have to remember remember 287 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:53.279 any keystrokes for triggering it. You just say the command once you've done it, 288 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:57.720 once you have. Have you ever had the situation where a new version 289 00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:03.359 of visual Studio remaps key strokes or changes them. I've got my own mapping, 290 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:07.759 which are usually key but yes, but it's easy to adapt. It's 291 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:12.279 a matter of seconds you've adapted it. So you don't find that managing naturally 292 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:15.519 speaking takes more time than you think it should. No, not at all, 293 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:22.039 not at all. There's a command browser. You can see all the 294 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:26.680 commands. Basically, you've got two lists of commands. You've got you've got 295 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:30.480 the build in commands, and there's a browser for these, and you've got 296 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:33.799 your own commands, and there's also a browser, and it's very easy to 297 00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:40.400 manage. I bet with co pilot this makes a killer combination, right because 298 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:44.279 now you can just speak a comment and then Copilot will actually write the code 299 00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:47.839 and you don't have to sit there going for each blah blah blah. Right, 300 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:49.920 yeah, but for each statements are a micro for me, I just 301 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:53.319 say okay, state for each and it will inserts a complete forage statement. 302 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:59.519 And that's with other stuff as well, So like if statements or standard HTML 303 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:03.920 marker or on any of this stuff I've got on a command. But your 304 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:08.039 macros don't know anything about the code that you're writing. The co pilot does. 305 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:14.440 Yeah, so are you finding yourself using co pilot with naturally speaking more? 306 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:19.440 Now, I'm saying when code pilot presensive solution to me, I have 307 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:25.680 to think about his suggestions and normally it takes more time than to just write 308 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:29.440 it down because I'm very fast. I'm doing this for many years. Now. 309 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:33.079 Do you have any videos of yourself writing code with naturally speaking that we 310 00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:37.440 can see? I don't have any. I'm really really my interest is peaked 311 00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:41.519 here. I could create one. Wow. Okay, well, if you 312 00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:44.000 create one, we'll put a link to it in the show notes. Okay, 313 00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:47.000 it's fascinating. Just yeah, like you said, one hand on the 314 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:49.319 function keys, one hand on the mouse, and all the texts you're just 315 00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:52.880 saying it. Yeah, So it's you know, you literally have a separate 316 00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:57.279 tool now to to keep these movies or your hands aren't bouncing back and forth. 317 00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:02.559 Yeah, and it's much faster. I'm a quite fast typist. I'm 318 00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:07.400 not slow, but this thing is still a lot faster. Instead of typing 319 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:10.680 single characters, you get complete words, right, all right, So how 320 00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:15.039 would you say? How would you say, use a link statement to pull 321 00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:18.200 a variable out from this list where this property value is between this value and 322 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:25.440 that value. I would more less dictate it as it's written, like a 323 00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:32.039 state variable index, equal sign, dictionary, empty brackets and so on. 324 00:23:32.519 --> 00:23:34.160 Okay, so you really are writing, So there is a point where you 325 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:37.839 have to dictate character by character code, Yes, depending on what I'm doing. 326 00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:41.960 Yes, what about moving the cursor around like you've got to go back 327 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:45.759 and change your phrase? I guess that's the mouse's job. You can still 328 00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:48.240 do that with keyboard with that barron, left, arrow and tab. And 329 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:52.359 yes, I'm using the mouse and a keyboard as usually, but it is 330 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:57.079 possible to control the mouths and the keyboard with naturally speaking, you can say, 331 00:23:57.079 --> 00:24:03.119 okay, go left five, or say you want to go ten lines, 332 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:07.839 go down ten, and so it's easier than pressing the Donkey ten times 333 00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:11.519 for sure. Yeah. So here's another question, but not by much. 334 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:17.400 Here's another question. Do you sell your macro library like your mappings? No? 335 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:22.480 Would you want to? Because I think people listen to this want to 336 00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:26.680 mind, Yes, sir, why not? Now you're into the accessibility space 337 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:30.720 in general, which is screen readers and like hardware dedicated for folks that have 338 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:34.240 limitations in certain areas. Are you using any of that in your own work? 339 00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:40.440 Yes, I've been using it. I had a rs I U many 340 00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:44.000 years ago, as I said previously, Yeah, and for some time I 341 00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:48.519 really was using naturally speaking to control everything just to save your wrists. Yeah, 342 00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:52.960 and I couldn't even shower. It was very bad. And you had 343 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:56.799 bad rs I. Friend, that's serious, like it hurts all the time. 344 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:00.480 Okay, can you just explain what RSI is repetitive stress? Insure you're 345 00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:04.599 okay? So again, our friend Mark Miller was very big on always wearing 346 00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:10.799 the races to reduce This is essentially caused by the tendons in your hand a 347 00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:15.559 brady against the sheaths in your wrist to the point where they inflame and puff 348 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:19.960 up enough that they burn all the time. It's it's agonized Wow. So 349 00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:22.720 I know, as a guitar player, if I write a lot of code, 350 00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:26.599 if I'm coding all week, right, and then I go try to 351 00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:30.079 play without practicing or warming up, my fingers don't know what to do. 352 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.559 And so you know it kind of is appealing to me. But does it 353 00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:37.480 hurt like this, No, it doesn't hurt. But they just don't do 354 00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:38.839 what you want them to do, Like they don't move. You know, 355 00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:42.839 your brain isn't used to sending the signals to play a scale. It's used 356 00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:47.640 to sending the signals to spell your name or your email chests. It's a 357 00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:51.559 very different motion. But and I would argue, because you switch between those 358 00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:56.200 different motions, your hands are in better shape. Yeah, you're probably right, 359 00:25:56.279 --> 00:25:59.720 right. The problem with typing, all this typing all the time is 360 00:25:59.720 --> 00:26:03.119 it's the same motions over and over. It's repetitive. Right. Plus there's 361 00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:08.640 also a whole conversation about wrist angles and and keyboard heights related to the table 362 00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:14.640 to share heights, like that ergonomics of minimizing stress on your rest because once 363 00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:19.119 you go down that inflammation path forever, will it haunt your destiny? Like 364 00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:25.200 as soon as as soon as your wrists start to be inflamed. Like everything, 365 00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:27.480 it gets worse and worse and worse. Yeah, there are two points, 366 00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:32.319 so and you mentioned one of them already. At this time I had 367 00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:37.079 the PIT twelve deficiency and it was measured and a lap and so I substituted 368 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:41.200 it. And it improves the situation a lot because pit twelve goes on all 369 00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:48.000 the sheds like nerve, fair and shes and and you know it's it causes 370 00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:52.480 inflammation when it's missing. Yeah, and the other point is missing plot flow. 371 00:26:52.759 --> 00:26:59.400 So the hands are not exercised enough. It's this repetitive, repetitive movement 372 00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:02.799 which all it's the same, but it doesn't really use the hands. And 373 00:27:02.839 --> 00:27:07.400 so so as a solution for me was to do some training, heavy weights 374 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:12.000 training, and this helped a lot. This really hap It will hurt initially. 375 00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:17.279 It will hurt initially because there's an inflammation, but on so long run 376 00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:22.440 it will improve. That's a flow of blood and lymph fluid, and so 377 00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:26.960 I don't have this problem anymore. Physiologically, typing is bizarre. It is 378 00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:33.240 kind of right to just flex the tendons while not moving the arm almost at 379 00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:37.680 all, Like it's very your body wasn't built for this. This is crazy, 380 00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:41.839 So I mean the whole I'm a big Pomadoro fan like that. Twenty 381 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:44.559 minutes, get up, move around, and so forth. That's about just 382 00:27:44.599 --> 00:27:48.920 making your blood move right, arms over your head, arms down like that. 383 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:52.039 All that's making blood move, which does not happen when you're hovering over 384 00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:57.400 the keyboard. The problem is you get in the groove and four hours go 385 00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:00.680 by, yep, and you're a couple of happy exactly where you're sitting. 386 00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:04.039 The moment you move in any way, you're like, I'm in agony, 387 00:28:04.119 --> 00:28:08.759 like everything hurts you get up and you didn't realize your assert that much and 388 00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:14.160 now I'm struggling to get up right and because you just you've been in the 389 00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:19.640 zone. Are there situations where you're using software apart from visual Studio software that 390 00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:26.680 you're trying to automate and there are things that are only menu options or buttons 391 00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:30.839 that you have to click. There are no keyboard shortcuts. What do you 392 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:34.000 do in that situation? If it has no keyboard trot cut at all, 393 00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:38.640 it's a little bit harder. But there's the second way. The program can 394 00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:44.839 recognize certain screen elements like, for example, standard buttons or proser buttons and 395 00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:49.480 everything. They say. All of these are recognized by naturally just speaking itself, 396 00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:52.839 or by its plugins. So when you're in a standard Windows program, 397 00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:57.279 you can say okay, click open, click safe, click order, and 398 00:28:57.400 --> 00:29:00.000 when you're on a Prouse or you can all. There are also commands, 399 00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:03.880 for example to list all links, or list all buttons and so on, 400 00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:07.960 and suse okay, click five or or click one, and so it will 401 00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:15.640 navigate. But if it's graphics only, application becomes very hard, say a 402 00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:19.640 game, for example, if there are no standard Windows elements, it's nearly 403 00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:23.359 impossible. Nearly impossible. Yeah, yeah, interesting, interesting problems. So 404 00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:27.519 just dart a solution to everything. But this is also where you get into 405 00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:32.839 that accessibility part. Good software has multiple ways to do a given task because 406 00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:36.759 different people have different abilities. Yeah, exactly, And this is what we're 407 00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:41.519 doing. There are you will know, semantic markup in HTML and this is 408 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:45.680 the first step. Then there are all these area at tags and other messets 409 00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:51.559 to get it accessible. And I've been doing this for some time and know 410 00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:55.720 some more experts in this area. And then you get the website which is 411 00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:00.920 completely can be navigated by voice, you can its content, you can everything 412 00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:06.000 by voice. That's cool. We've and we've done that show right, like 413 00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:10.079 we've talked about access building with both sides. Okay, hey guys, let's 414 00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:14.240 continue the conversation after this quick break for some very important messages. We'll be 415 00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:21.920 right backed and we're back. It's dot Net Rocks. I'm Carl Franklin. 416 00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:26.720 That's Richard Campbell. How do you And we're talking to Carl geist about doing 417 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:32.039 everything with speech that you can do with your hands almost. I do like 418 00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:33.759 the mix. There's some things that are served well by the hands, and 419 00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:37.559 some things were served well by the voice, like writing a longer comment because 420 00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:41.519 I can go on and on makes a lot of sense. Yeah, or 421 00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:44.680 writing a book on the history of dot net, for example, that might 422 00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:49.240 be a good thing to use. I don't know the absolutely did I say 423 00:30:49.279 --> 00:31:00.319 something wrong Richard? Anyway? So so let's talk about some of the practical 424 00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:03.599 things that you're using this for within visual studio itself. I imagine you've piqued 425 00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:11.119 the interest of our listeners, especially those you know who might have limited hand 426 00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:17.960 movement. So just give us a quick example of something that you You mentioned 427 00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:19.839 a couple of macros in the way that you set up projects and things, 428 00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:26.559 but what are the give us a run through the how you would typically go 429 00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:30.880 about programming a new app web app. Let's say, like how do you 430 00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:34.799 drag and drop elements from one window to another? For example? What are 431 00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:40.319 some of the more challenging things for drag and drop? I have to use 432 00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:45.440 some mouse, so that's maybe not the way you can put control of the 433 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.680 mouse by voice, but it's it's very hard to do it very slow. 434 00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:52.960 And then normally, say when I would start debugging, I would say okay, 435 00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:56.240 dee buck run and then it would start debugging. Or I would say 436 00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:00.759 okay, let's say de buck breake pund and would set the breakpoint. And 437 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:06.839 then I've got different variations. You might know the safe we web tools have 438 00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:10.680 different keyboard short cuts, so I've got different keyboard short cuts like for a 439 00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:16.599 browser and the development and environment, and that's safe for for running commands. 440 00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:21.920 And then when I want to dictate a statement, for example, I would 441 00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:24.799 say okay, state for each and it would just write the complete for each 442 00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:30.200 statement, and or you have to fill in the values obviously for each what 443 00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:34.640 you know, yeah, but it's it will normally trigger a snippet of visually 444 00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:37.640 snippet and the stimple will place the curse on the right location. So I'm 445 00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:42.759 combining these two. I've I've got balance snippets. I've got the standard snippets 446 00:32:43.319 --> 00:32:46.960 and many times and triggering snippets by using voice commands. So I've got one 447 00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:51.160 little more flexibility. And if you're at a breakpoint, can you examine the 448 00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:53.440 value of a variable without using your hands? Normally I would say okay, 449 00:32:53.480 --> 00:32:58.960 deva locals and it will would show the locals window, or deebug inspect it 450 00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:04.359 will show this F nine variable inspection window and so on, wow and so 451 00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:09.880 or I've got one debug variables which should which you all like locals watch and 452 00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:16.319 whatever. It would show multiple windows. And then let's say, look up 453 00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:23.079 this exception value on with chat BT. Can you you could? I've got 454 00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:31.480 miracles, say yeah, Say but I've got a micro for example, where 455 00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:36.440 I can select the text and say look up that, and it would open 456 00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:39.640 the browser and look up this this code. Cool, And so I'm I'm 457 00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:45.200 saving say twenty keystrocks or so I swear to god you could sell this library 458 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:52.559 of macros. I wouldn't mind. I've been selling share before, so yeah, 459 00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:57.319 be a problem. Say there's one statement like source block, it would 460 00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:01.279 select the complete if statement, and so variations which would select the if statement 461 00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:06.440 and some surrounding statements or only the inner part of the if statement and so 462 00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:10.079 on, and so I'm saving a lot of time. Sometimes it's like twenty 463 00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:16.320 keystrucks so more. Or like you're looking for record expression, say this typical 464 00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:22.280 record expression for identifiers like a too set zero to nine underscore blah blah, 465 00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:27.679 and this would be regas expression a recas identifier, and it would select. 466 00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:31.960 It would just type it out. And you might notice that I'm using kind 467 00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:40.719 of reverse notation, so I say debug run or yeah, it's always reverse, 468 00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:45.440 And this is intentionally so I can find all debugging commands. And by 469 00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:51.320 doing this, it's also possible over a remote desktop connection for example. Sure 470 00:34:51.719 --> 00:34:55.440 it doesn't mind. Say I can go to an RDP session use my same 471 00:34:55.480 --> 00:35:00.519 commands as before without any problems. You don't have to install anything on the 472 00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:06.079 RDP on the VM. You mean, I think you mentioned this when you 473 00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:08.960 when you're navigating menus, you can just literally read what's on the screen, 474 00:35:09.079 --> 00:35:14.000 right, You can say menu file or something like that, and then you 475 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:16.039 know, like if there isn't a keyboard shortcut, but there's a menu shortcut. 476 00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:20.239 Yes, you could say file blah blah blah blah blah blah, and 477 00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:22.880 whatever you see on the screen, you can read right and it will select 478 00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:29.280 it if it's recognizable. Say there are some Windows accessibility features, and if 479 00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:32.760 the target program supports you can say, okay, click file, click open, 480 00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:37.920 click tools, click settings. This is possible. If it's like a 481 00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:43.519 graphics only application, it's not possible. It's the program you cannot recognize anything. 482 00:35:43.639 --> 00:35:49.119 But most Windows menus usually have a keyboard hot key associated with it, 483 00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:52.039 so you could just say press A, press B whatever exactly as you say. 484 00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:55.440 You could say, okay, press all, control print screen, This 485 00:35:55.599 --> 00:36:00.199 is possible, press chift, control entro. It's also possible. Bring up 486 00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:06.800 notepad, paste video, run paste clipboard. I'm always done how many times 487 00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:08.559 I run notead given day, still to this day, Like, Yeah, 488 00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:12.599 it's just it's the bok place I put things. You know what you use 489 00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:15.599 it for. I use it as a text filter, Like you pull something 490 00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:19.480 off of the of a website and before you paste it into email, you 491 00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:28.159 want to remove all the formatting. You just ASKI by you, I think 492 00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:30.800 you would already expect it. But I've got a micro for this. Yeah, 493 00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:36.760 of course you do. We're going into business a paste text micro and 494 00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:39.760 if we just remove all the garbage, it's paste text. Wow. Yeah, 495 00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:42.760 it's a good. Wow. That's cool. Yeah. How many times 496 00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:45.079 you've been copied a URL and found out you don't have it? You don't 497 00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:49.239 actually have that ur ur l you have fifteen trackers that eventually lead to URL. 498 00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:52.199 Perhaps maybe Yeah, all right, let's we gotta go. We gotta 499 00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:54.519 keep going with your awesome macros. Here tell us that some of the other 500 00:36:54.760 --> 00:37:00.000 really productivity enhancing macros you have, whether visual studio or not. Let's say 501 00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:06.920 I'm also controlling Outlook, and say there are two ways to control other applications. 502 00:37:07.639 --> 00:37:08.880 One option is to have a plug in, like, for example, 503 00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:14.480 there's an exit blocking or word plugging or Outlook plugin and so on. There 504 00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:17.199 are other options to write your own macros. And so I've got a lot 505 00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:22.280 of micros, for example, for Outlook to switch the text language. Say 506 00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:27.320 I'm dictating in say two three different languages, and so I've got a macro 507 00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:30.960 for just switching the languages. You know, how I control Outlook? I 508 00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:37.840 use Gmail. That's how okay. Could I say that out loud? Yeah 509 00:37:38.199 --> 00:37:44.400 okay? Or say, I've got templates for the ciffix of a letter, 510 00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:47.440 the prefix of a letter, all kinds of salutations and so on, So 511 00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:51.800 I don't have the type okay, dear sir or madam. Now I just 512 00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:54.280 say it wow, and it will write it for me. You know this 513 00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:59.800 laurum ipsum text template all the people are using in the web, I've got 514 00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:06.719 it. Macro texts yeah, lower mid some and say, I've also got 515 00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:09.840 to say text templates for say you want to test text, test an input, 516 00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:15.199 feel if it's if you can fit one one hundred characters. So I've 517 00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:22.719 got templates which create like small rulers from Escui characters and it is exactly one 518 00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:25.920 hundred characters, and you can see if it fits or not. And I've 519 00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:30.519 got one for one thousand characters and so on, and so it's it's very 520 00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:35.199 handy for testing. Sure, it allows repetitions. For example, as I 521 00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:38.079 told you, you can say okay, go up one hundred. But you 522 00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:43.039 can also have your own macros repeat. So if you've got one macro and 523 00:38:43.079 --> 00:38:46.880 then you can have another one and say okay, repeat it twenty times. 524 00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:51.840 And it will repeat the macro twenty times. Wow, I'm stunned. They 525 00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:54.920 just yeah, And I can see how you just gradually accumulate these. You 526 00:38:55.199 --> 00:39:00.320 write a macro once and then you get to keep reusing. It saves you 527 00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:02.519 a lot of work, a lot of you can because it's it's basic. 528 00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:07.960 It's programmable, programmable in the basic language. So it has a very old, 529 00:39:08.119 --> 00:39:12.880 very small basic in the inside, and you can write all kinds of 530 00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:17.880 clip statements. You can access the clipboard, you can access your last dictation 531 00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:22.960 words and so on. So it's it's very flexible. And so like I 532 00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:28.840 mentioned, I'm also of the coples of logging library. And so when I 533 00:39:28.840 --> 00:39:32.199 say okay, lockdow world both, it will insert the lock for both statement. 534 00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:37.440 When I say okay lock doot warning, it will insert the warning statement. 535 00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:42.719 But only log dot is a fixed part and the last part is flexible. 536 00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:46.000 It's it it's accessing the word I said, And so you have lots 537 00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:50.960 of possibilities here. And as I told you, it's it's like a third 538 00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:52.719 hand. I've I've got my hand on the mouth and the function keys and 539 00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:57.360 so on, and most of the typing is being done by by voice. 540 00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:00.320 You just don't have to deal with it. I know it's I say, 541 00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:04.280 I love to see the video because it definitely is a rhythm, you know, 542 00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:07.280 of a flow right to what that would look like? Yeah, I 543 00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:12.360 mentioned flow, you mentioned the debugger, but where does that end up going? 544 00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:15.239 Like ultimately, I guess you're getting back to a piece of code you 545 00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:17.760 need to correct. At least, I didn't understand the question, like when 546 00:40:17.800 --> 00:40:22.559 you when you're I'm just thinking about the debugging workflow. It's different from the 547 00:40:22.599 --> 00:40:25.480 coding workflow. You certainly can start the debugger, you set a break point, 548 00:40:25.559 --> 00:40:30.599 you run, you drop to the break point. Now you're checking values, 549 00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:34.920 maybe tweaking some code and continuing. Yes, that's right, Yeah, 550 00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:38.199 but it's this has the same statements. I've got lots of say, seventy 551 00:40:38.599 --> 00:40:44.760 debugging statements, and I'm running them all the time, like looking at variables 552 00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:52.960 or showing certain windows and so on, continuing breaking whatever, set next statement. 553 00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:59.000 Okay, so but that's a normal process. Step step step step step. 554 00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:05.119 Okay, that gets old. I've I've got my fingers on the keyboard 555 00:41:05.159 --> 00:41:09.880 and I'm using the function keys for this, right, But talking talking about 556 00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:15.400 the flow, say, writing a longer comment would get you out of flow 557 00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:19.920 when programming. But when you when you type it, when you say it, 558 00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:22.960 when you say it, when you're talking to the machine, it's way 559 00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:27.960 faster. And as you mentioned before, it's like talking to myself. I 560 00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:32.079 repeat my programming ideas in a different language, meaning a natural human language, 561 00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:37.840 and so I can reflect on what I'm writing here. And sometimes I'm doing 562 00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:44.079 this very excessively, say oh, I've got normally I've got some wordpat open 563 00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:50.119 or word open, and I write my concepts down by using speech and collect 564 00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:52.840 them and arrange them, and then I start writing code. So it's useful 565 00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:57.239 on this part too. And what I also can do you you know, 566 00:41:57.280 --> 00:42:00.360 all of you. You know pentot net. This is pending application, and 567 00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:06.079 it's also possible to automate thee is like for inside for example, for inserting 568 00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:12.880 a picture and song. All of this is possible by voice commands or say 569 00:42:13.239 --> 00:42:15.039 many times a day. You have to write the current date and time, 570 00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:20.559 or say only the date, like for example when opening a kit branch or 571 00:42:21.320 --> 00:42:23.840 giving a file name or whatever it's on a macro. I've got a macro, 572 00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:30.760 or say different six or eight which insert current date time in different formats 573 00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:35.480 and then I've got all my posonial information like street or address, or or 574 00:42:35.800 --> 00:42:38.320 phone number or whatever. It's also on macros, so when I'm filling out 575 00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:42.960 the form, I just don't worry. I've got my street correct, my 576 00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:46.079 phone number correct, and so on. But there's one point where you have 577 00:42:46.119 --> 00:42:52.480 to be careful because you're writing an email by voice. There will be no 578 00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:57.639 typos because this system will just take the words from its dictionary and insert them. 579 00:42:58.280 --> 00:43:01.639 But sometimes it gets the words completely wrong. So it's a spell checker 580 00:43:01.599 --> 00:43:06.000 will not find anything, but if you'll still be wrong right, And that's 581 00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:08.960 the point where you have to be careful always, or tool like grammarly would 582 00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:14.679 catch that better than the spell checker will. Yeah. So here's a quick 583 00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:19.440 question, and I think you touched on this before, but are you more 584 00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:28.039 confident about using any web site in a browser than if you, for example, 585 00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:30.159 download a new Windows application. Now you have to figure out all the 586 00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:36.599 keyboard shortcuts because it's in the browser. Does that help, like you feel 587 00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:38.880 more confident go into any site and being able to manipulate it and do what 588 00:43:38.920 --> 00:43:44.320 you want to do with naturally speaking, then it would be getting a new 589 00:43:44.360 --> 00:43:47.880 program. No, I'm not using naturally speaking a lot for websites, it 590 00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:52.280 is possible, but it's say, for me, it's not necessary. I 591 00:43:52.280 --> 00:43:57.360 can use my hands and so I'm not using a lot. But what you're 592 00:43:57.519 --> 00:44:00.000 saying, it's right saying I'm doing it. I'm doing a lot of user 593 00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:05.800 interface and usability and so on. And I've seen that many people are more 594 00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:09.519 confident when using the mouse or touch screens and so on, so it's easier 595 00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:14.679 just point and click and test it. It's you don't have to remember any 596 00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:20.039 shortcuts. That's that's fair. Yeah, But on in my client base, 597 00:44:20.679 --> 00:44:24.519 you clearly see different users, kinds of users. Some are using the mouse 598 00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:29.639 all of the time and some and some really want keyboard short cuts because they 599 00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:34.480 want to work fast, and so you can support both. There's no problem 600 00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:38.679 at all. It's you can support keyboard short but touch voice input all at 601 00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:43.320 the same time. And getting back to the better know framework, which was 602 00:44:44.559 --> 00:44:50.079 the warp command line thing, I imagine that command line interfaces are a lot 603 00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:53.679 easier to use a Dragon interface just because of the nature of you know, 604 00:44:53.960 --> 00:44:59.280 your text in text out easy. Yeah, you're right, so PowerShell maybe, 605 00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:02.280 Yeah, it depends on what you're writing, like write a push REQUI 606 00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:07.639 write a pull request in the command line to gethub with your voice. That's 607 00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:13.880 a lot of dashes and well macros right, macros y micro create for the 608 00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:16.039 data. You can even have macros with prompts. You could have a base 609 00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:20.920 macro and it prompts you in the middle for some argument and it would complete 610 00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:23.239 the same Yeah, what's the thing you want here? Exactly? Yeah, 611 00:45:23.239 --> 00:45:27.239 but I do get it. You know, things that command line tools, 612 00:45:27.239 --> 00:45:30.320 they have a lot of arguments like f FM PEG or any kind of you 613 00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:36.000 know, get new face piping and power show type. Yeah. Right, 614 00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:39.440 that's why you need a macro. Yeah, but I've got one example that's 615 00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:45.519 really working fine in sequel. Sequel is a language which can be spoken very 616 00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:50.519 well. So I've got some like siquel select. I've got such a statement 617 00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:53.880 which will write out a base a sickle select segment and then I can okay 618 00:45:53.880 --> 00:45:59.320 sequel from sequel to a sequel like and it would just in a very very 619 00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:04.239 high speed out to command. So and I used to use use some some 620 00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:08.639 Microsoft Cycle commands. You know, if it's a command land utility and it's 621 00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:13.280 using speech, is very very outfoot here. You know, you talk about 622 00:46:13.400 --> 00:46:16.360 that English has a funny order to things that you want to say debug run 623 00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:20.920 not run debug it. Certainly SQL has that problem where really you want the 624 00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:23.559 from clause first, you want to tell you these are the tables I want 625 00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:27.920 to play with. Then this is what I want to fetch from it? 626 00:46:28.119 --> 00:46:31.320 Then they here are the filters or the restrictions on what chipo. Yeah, 627 00:46:31.320 --> 00:46:35.639 you got to always write the wear clause before the delete clause, right, 628 00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:40.360 that's me now, I know, yeah, sure, yeah, you know, 629 00:46:40.679 --> 00:46:45.079 you're right. You could do the from, You could do the from 630 00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:49.039 and the where before you've even decided in my retrieving data, deleting data, 631 00:46:49.119 --> 00:46:51.639 updated data like its own separate things. You're stuck with this. You just 632 00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:53.679 have to break those pieces of part. We are stuck with this. It's 633 00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:58.840 a standard and we have to just get the custom Yes, yeah, but 634 00:46:59.079 --> 00:47:00.519 I mean, you know it's interesting when you think that way is as you 635 00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:05.280 get those conditionals in play, it could be queery and telling you how many 636 00:47:05.320 --> 00:47:08.599 rose that's going to be all along before you've even actually said okay, well 637 00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:13.199 now show me this or take this action on that set. But you know 638 00:47:13.239 --> 00:47:15.599 the shape of the set just by describing it. Yeah, but what I'm 639 00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:19.960 I'm just thinking chat. I'll say I've got cheat schippd all most of the 640 00:47:20.039 --> 00:47:24.719 time, and it is very good at creating sick with statements nice. So 641 00:47:25.320 --> 00:47:29.440 you can say, okay, I've got fist sea shop class here, and 642 00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:31.960 you past the sea shop class and say, hey, please write a select 643 00:47:31.960 --> 00:47:38.199 segment for fift sea shop class nice normally do it without errors. And I'm 644 00:47:38.280 --> 00:47:43.679 using the clickouse database right now, and here's the same. So I can 645 00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:47.480 ask, okay, give me a creat table statement for this sea shop class 646 00:47:49.519 --> 00:47:52.559 and it will do it nominally. You know, chat gipt does better with 647 00:47:52.920 --> 00:47:58.440 languages other than English, doesn't it. It does, And what I mean 648 00:47:58.480 --> 00:48:04.400 it's a sea sharp programming languages SEQL. It tends to get those things better 649 00:48:04.840 --> 00:48:07.320 more accurately than it does. I mean, of course the grammar and is 650 00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:10.840 stuff is fine, but you know, Lisa's not trying to mix facts with 651 00:48:12.039 --> 00:48:15.920 language. It's astonishingly could say I asked it today for a TOSK command. 652 00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:21.039 It got it right. Normally, it gets a secret statements right most of 653 00:48:21.079 --> 00:48:23.679 the time. It gets a c shop statements right. And the good thing 654 00:48:23.719 --> 00:48:28.719 is it will output say you formulate a prompt for the stuff you need and 655 00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:31.320 it will out puts a complete code. I want to ask it for some 656 00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:37.639 binary coding stuff. It was very good. I wanted to work it all, 657 00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:38.880 but it was very cool. On the other hand, you know, 658 00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:45.440 I was listening to an old Soul Live record today. The guitar players sounded 659 00:48:45.559 --> 00:48:49.760 very familiar. It sounded like John Schofield, and I looked at the name 660 00:48:49.760 --> 00:48:52.840 of the tune and I asked j gpt as John Scofield ever played on the 661 00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:57.079 Soul Live tune blah blah blah, and said, no, that was the 662 00:48:57.119 --> 00:49:00.800 original guitar player blah blah blah. I looked on Wikipedi. No, I 663 00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:04.960 was right, it was go. It was recognized his hand. I recognize 664 00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:08.519 that sound. So yeah, that's what I mean. I mean, you 665 00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:13.920 know, with English queries it has to get facts and mix that in with 666 00:49:13.960 --> 00:49:16.400 the language. It can give you the wrong answer in a very eloquent and 667 00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:22.320 beautiful way. But with programming languages, sequel languages, there's really only one 668 00:49:22.360 --> 00:49:24.880 answer, you know, and the compiler always gets to say, which is 669 00:49:24.920 --> 00:49:30.760 pretty useful. I've been thinking now that to Aaron's comment as well, like, 670 00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:36.400 is this unsatisfying that you didn't write the query yourself and I think describing 671 00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:39.960 the goal and having the tool assembled the bits like we've always done this, 672 00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:44.719 there's always been a library you're recalling to. I mean, and I want 673 00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:47.199 you hit this right early on Carl Franklin because we have two Carls of the 674 00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:52.199 show. Doesn't make this more difficult then writing a good comment with then you 675 00:49:52.239 --> 00:49:54.719 have something good Hub Copile, Like half the time it's going to spew the 676 00:49:54.719 --> 00:50:00.159 code from the comment anyway, Is that unsatisfying? I don't think it is. 677 00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:01.840 Is like, yeah, that's what I was thinking. Wouldn't go and 678 00:50:01.880 --> 00:50:05.960 tweak it for me? For me, if this is okay, why should 679 00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:08.119 I write a complete secret statement when it can do it for me. Yeah, 680 00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:12.840 it's just yeah, I know, you know, it's like using a 681 00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:15.920 manual thrill or an elective elective trill. You want the hold, you want 682 00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:19.960 to hold, yes, and the machine is doing it. So what it's 683 00:50:19.960 --> 00:50:22.960 okay, it's okay. The thing that wouldn't be it wouldn't be satisfying is 684 00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:25.000 if I didn't understand what it was saying, right, if it if I 685 00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:29.199 didn't understand the output. And you know, that's the thing, like we 686 00:50:29.239 --> 00:50:30.920 all grew up doing these things by hand. We learned how they work, 687 00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:34.880 we learned how sequel works, and then when something does it for us, 688 00:50:34.880 --> 00:50:38.679 we're delighted because we know exactly what it says. But somebody who just you 689 00:50:38.719 --> 00:50:44.400 know, asks CHTGBT for a sequel statement and they plug in and it magically 690 00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:47.800 works. That's to me, would be scary if I didn't know. There's 691 00:50:47.800 --> 00:50:53.280 a lot of discussion going on about the risks of just copy and pasting generated 692 00:50:53.360 --> 00:51:00.119 code into programs, the security different from stack overflow and every other way that 693 00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:05.280 we've gotten code that we didn't write. Stack overflow, you kind of they 694 00:51:05.360 --> 00:51:08.480 explain it though, you can read through the narrative of the problem, and 695 00:51:08.559 --> 00:51:12.960 somebody, yeah, well when it works well, and chat GPT does a 696 00:51:12.960 --> 00:51:16.440 good job of explaining code too, it's just always correct correct, just like 697 00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:22.039 the folks on stack overflow. Yeah, yeah, fair point. Anyway, 698 00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:24.679 So what's next for you, Carl? What's in your inbox? What are 699 00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:30.000 you working on? I will continue working on this IoT application, and this 700 00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:37.400 is my manual application occupation right now. I'm there designing data structures and say 701 00:51:37.400 --> 00:51:40.239 a very flexible computation kernel which can be changed on the fly. So as 702 00:51:40.320 --> 00:51:44.320 as a code can be changed on the fly, so it is doing some 703 00:51:44.360 --> 00:51:49.239 background compilation of c sharp and on Zaza. And I'm still in my big 704 00:51:51.280 --> 00:51:57.639 industrial application where we've implemented a very large solution for our clients and say different 705 00:51:57.800 --> 00:52:04.679 consulting tasks around like I'm doing consulting regarding naturally speaking for some client, lots 706 00:52:04.719 --> 00:52:09.199 of stuff. Very good. Well, yeah, definitely, let's talk offline 707 00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:15.320 about making that your your macro library available because I imagine that people would really 708 00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:19.519 be interested in that. And also if we don't have it in your bio, 709 00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:23.840 how can people get in touch with you? Easiest way would be email 710 00:52:23.840 --> 00:52:29.079 address, but you have to provide it to you first. There's a commanding 711 00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:31.840 feature on my website. Yeah, reclue the link to cobasoft and there is 712 00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:37.280 a contact page there. Yeah, we'll do that. Very good, Carl 713 00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:42.840 Geets, thank you very much. This has been very very enlightening. Yes, 714 00:52:42.920 --> 00:52:45.719 you're welcome, all right, and we'll talk to you next time on 715 00:52:45.800 --> 00:53:09.199 dot net rocks. Dot net rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and 716 00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:15.599 produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post production facility 717 00:53:15.880 --> 00:53:20.800 located physically in New London, Connecticut. And of course in the cloud online 718 00:53:20.840 --> 00:53:24.559 at pwop dot com. Visit our website at d O T N E t 719 00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:30.679 R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, 720 00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:34.800 comments, and access to the full archives going back to show number one, 721 00:53:35.320 --> 00:53:38.039 recorded in September two thousand and two. And make sure you check out 722 00:53:38.039 --> 00:53:42.880 our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now go write some code, 723 00:53:43.239 --> 00:54:01.800 See you next time. You got javans and