1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:05,679 How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy? Become 2 00:00:05,679 --> 00:00:10,519 a patron For just five dollars a month you get access to a private RSS 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,560 feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month will get 4 00:00:14,599 --> 00:00:19,640 you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign up now at Patreon 5 00:00:19,879 --> 00:00:24,280 dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey, Carl and Richard here with your twenty 6 00:00:24,359 --> 00:00:28,920 twenty four NDC schedule. Will be at as many NDC conferences as possible this 7 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,359 year, and you should consider it tending no matter what. Ndcoslow is happening 8 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:38,600 June tenth through the fourteenth. Get your tickets at ndcoslow dot com. The 9 00:00:38,679 --> 00:00:43,679 Copenhagen Developers Festival happens August twenty sixth through the thirtieth. Early bird discount ends 10 00:00:43,719 --> 00:00:51,520 April twenty sixth. Tickets at Cphdevfest dot com. Ndcporto is happening October fourteenth 11 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:57,840 through the eighteenth. The early bird discount ends June fourteenth. Tickets at Ndcporto 12 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:14,280 dot com. And we'll see you there, we hope. Hey, welcome 13 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:17,480 back to dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin, an amateur campbell we are 14 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:23,359 gearing up for some stuff here are we not? This is definitely some stuff. 15 00:01:23,519 --> 00:01:26,760 The conferences is coming on again, right, like we have here there 16 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,120 and Yon it's spring, right, you have an announcement about dev Intersection, 17 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,040 do you know? Oh? Yes, dev Intersection got moved. We were 18 00:01:34,079 --> 00:01:38,599 supposed to be the second week of May and now we're down in the second 19 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:45,560 week of September. So we had some opportunities there and to do some more 20 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,400 announcement related things. So it was like, hey, if we could just 21 00:01:48,519 --> 00:01:51,879 move it to September, and we were able to make a deal with the 22 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,680 MGM Grand So Teta. I know it's frustrating for a few folks. We've 23 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,640 been trying to help everyone else to be comfortable and make it reasonable and fair. 24 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,359 But yeah, I'm what it does to the contents, Dac, you're 25 00:02:02,359 --> 00:02:05,959 gonna be really excited. Yeah, I'm glad we were able to do this, 26 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:07,680 so it'd be a much better show in the fall, I think, 27 00:02:07,759 --> 00:02:13,719 so and so dev intersection dot com. Yeah, all right, Well let's 28 00:02:13,759 --> 00:02:23,439 roll the crazy music for better no Framework awesome? Alright, man, what 29 00:02:23,439 --> 00:02:30,400 do you got right? This one came from Appy Next alumni, those trouble 30 00:02:30,479 --> 00:02:36,479 Makers troublemakers Brian McKay, who's always looking for new AI stuff, as you 31 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:46,680 know. So this is a an AI uh enabled or empowered command terminal called 32 00:02:46,759 --> 00:02:50,639 WARP. Go to warp dot dev. Great you are ol holy man. 33 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,280 How about that? Huh warp dot dev. And so it says WARP is 34 00:02:54,319 --> 00:03:00,000 the terminal reimagine with AI and collaborative tools for better productivity, and it does 35 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,360 doesn't exist yet. You have to join the Windows wait list. Oh, 36 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:07,759 I see you if you're on Windows. But just take a just gander for 37 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:12,400 a few seconds at what they're doing there in the terminal. It's like an 38 00:03:12,439 --> 00:03:15,719 animated gift for a little video or something. Yeah, I just wonder how 39 00:03:15,759 --> 00:03:17,840 real is that? Like I could make cool texts few out, but I 40 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:22,639 have to go on the wait list. Yeah yeah, and get this built 41 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:29,520 with Rust well Orsinovich approves. You know, it's a pretty low level language. 42 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,280 You know, it sort of straddles the line a little more safer than 43 00:03:32,319 --> 00:03:37,039 C plus plus, but still that kind of performance. So I'm laughing because 44 00:03:37,439 --> 00:03:43,039 Rust is making the news. Every once in a while I see news stories 45 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,960 that Microsoft is not abandoning C sharp for Rust. You heard it here first 46 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,400 because there was some you know, there was just some rumors and stuff that, 47 00:03:51,719 --> 00:03:57,120 oh no, there was some c sharp services in Azure that we're being 48 00:03:57,159 --> 00:04:00,080 rewritten in Rust. Yeah, because you think about it from Microsoft's perspective, 49 00:04:00,159 --> 00:04:05,840 those services, the less compute they consume, the less it costs Microsoft to 50 00:04:05,919 --> 00:04:09,599 operate, Right, we should be thanking them. Well, they could have 51 00:04:09,599 --> 00:04:12,479 rewritten them in C plus plus, but it would just cost more, So 52 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,960 they rewrite them and Rust. And it just goes to show you there's a 53 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,839 language for everything out there, right, yeah. Yeah, and for macro 54 00:04:17,959 --> 00:04:23,560 you know, super scale cloud stuff where you can see utilization so high that 55 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,920 every cycle counts, that's worth doing a rewrite like that. It's just funny 56 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,839 how people react, you know, Oh my god, Sea sharp is going 57 00:04:30,879 --> 00:04:34,279 away. Yeah, it's not. There's not one language for exactly all right, 58 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:38,800 Well that's what I got warped at dev and check it out at warp 59 00:04:38,879 --> 00:04:42,680 speed on your own time. Now back to you, Richard, who's talking 60 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,439 to us Grady coppin te for show eighteen ninety two, pretty recent, the 61 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,519 one we did with Michelle Duke talking about get Hub co pilot. I think 62 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,800 we'll have a little AI conversation today and so you know, get hubgup pilot. 63 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,879 It's sort of the original for devs and Aaron Morgan wrote a bit of 64 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,319 a missive I'm not going to hold that against you, Eric, because I 65 00:04:57,319 --> 00:05:00,519 thought it was very intelligent, But he said, I really enjoyed this episode 66 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,399 with Sheell's great is always and I love the call out to jet Brain's Rider, 67 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,800 as it's often not mentioned when Microsoft Stack is being discussed. I got 68 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:11,079 nothing bad to say about jet Brains or a Rider. They're great. A 69 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,279 large part of my works out of soci comes from creating a solution from whole 70 00:05:14,319 --> 00:05:17,079 cloth and figuring out the problems as I go. I'm not a developer because 71 00:05:17,079 --> 00:05:19,920 it pays well, but the fun of it, the challenge of it, 72 00:05:20,079 --> 00:05:24,959 prompting an AI to generate my vision doesn't have the same appeal. Although I'm 73 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,279 sure went to my employer since it means faster delivery, I feel like more 74 00:05:29,319 --> 00:05:30,839 time to be creative. Argument is a bit of a crock. No employer 75 00:05:30,879 --> 00:05:33,399 is going to say great work or complete debt. Piece of work early. 76 00:05:33,439 --> 00:05:36,560 Now, think creatively on something else for the next week and stead it'll be 77 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:41,199 here's the next task, Get on with it. I do pay for GPD 78 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,680 for and have basically used it as a drop in replacement for stack overflow. 79 00:05:44,879 --> 00:05:47,879 I've heard that before. Yeah, also, as I'm not great with complex 80 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,800 EQL queries and the ability to describe tables to get a full query back as 81 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:56,800 a massive time saver, I also use sveelt, and to Carl's point, 82 00:05:57,079 --> 00:06:00,639 I know just not to ask for anything on sveelt because it's of the project. 83 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:02,040 But the twenty twenty one is largely they have no use of me today. 84 00:06:02,199 --> 00:06:06,399 Yep. But I sit here having refactored a JavaScript function that I couldn't 85 00:06:06,399 --> 00:06:11,759 find the solution to using Google. After dropping in the function signature, GPT 86 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,959 said that I needed to use a type alias and gave an example. So 87 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,319 I've learned what a type alias is typescript. The code is tidier and more 88 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,680 maintainable, and I don't feel like I didn't code the method. I think 89 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,560 this is the crux of it. I enjoy learning new development things, and 90 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,720 this aspect of work being diminished with AI auto prompting. Yeah, I don't 91 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,079 see how it was diminished at all. I think you had a very polite 92 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,519 rubber duck helping you there. Yeah. Well, the problem comes when chat 93 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:43,720 GPT offers solutions that are old, right, and you go and you look, 94 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,879 and I just did this the other day. It offered a solution and 95 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,079 I went and I checked it out, checked out the nugat packages that it 96 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:54,279 suggested, and they've been deprecated. And so I said, hey, these 97 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,399 packages have been deprecated. Is there anything else? And it's like, oh, 98 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,240 yes, more modern design. Would you use this? You know? 99 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,800 Okay, why didn't you tell me that in the first place, you idiot. 100 00:07:04,439 --> 00:07:09,160 So Aaron wraps up with I want to use AI like a pod of 101 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,879 nearby co workers that don't mind being interrupted. Beautiful description, But I don't 102 00:07:13,879 --> 00:07:15,720 want to use AI like I'm a project manager directing a team of devs who'll 103 00:07:15,759 --> 00:07:19,439 do my bidding, but ultimately reading disconnected for the process of development. I 104 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,759 feel like in the long run, AI coding will be a bit of a 105 00:07:23,759 --> 00:07:28,279 pyrrhic victory to the personal satisfaction and sense of fulfillment we get from working as 106 00:07:28,319 --> 00:07:30,000 software engineers. I don't know, you know, in the end, I 107 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:34,839 was trying to get to the solution too, you know. I'm not opposed 108 00:07:34,879 --> 00:07:38,319 to power apps for the same reason A lot of people go, oh my 109 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,199 god, no code Are you crazy. It's like I'm just trying to deliver 110 00:07:41,279 --> 00:07:44,560 results, man, right, that's what's important. Yep, So Aerin, 111 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,040 thank you so much for your comment. A copy of music codey is on 112 00:07:46,079 --> 00:07:48,000 its way to you. And if you'd like a copy of music Code by 113 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,839 I read a comment on the website at don at Rocks dot com or on 114 00:07:50,879 --> 00:07:54,000 the facebooks. We publish every show there and if you comment there and a 115 00:07:54,079 --> 00:07:56,600 reading on the show, we'll send you copy of music Code. And we 116 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,759 definitely like to see you on Twitter. Of course, we've been there for 117 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,680 a long time or x or whatever it is today, but the real cool 118 00:08:03,759 --> 00:08:07,439 kids are hanging out. I'm Mastodon. I'm at Carl Franklin at tech hub 119 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,879 dot social, at average Campbell at Masodon dot social, and of course you 120 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,480 can find all the ways you can contact me at Carl Franklin dot com. 121 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,879 Okay, let's get to our guest today. Really excited to have Carl guides 122 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:26,319 on. He is a freelance software architect and developer owner of Kobasoft GmbH. 123 00:08:26,879 --> 00:08:30,839 Is Carl. Is there an acronym way to say that? Do you say 124 00:08:30,879 --> 00:08:37,039 gumba or do you just say GmbH? Ohh okay, like we say inc 125 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,519 for incorporated r LLC. All right, So that's at Kobasoft dot Net Coba 126 00:08:41,759 --> 00:08:46,080 s o ft dot net building advanced applications for their clients with c sharp, 127 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:52,200 SQL and web technologies. He has been working for Microsoft, Siemens Carl Zeis 128 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:58,600 microscopy, banks and industry. His main topics are c sharp web standards, 129 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:03,759 generators, performance and accessibility. He's currently working on an IoT project with sensor 130 00:09:03,879 --> 00:09:09,480 data, flexible calculations and the ClickHouse database, and a large in house application 131 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:16,639 for an industrial client with asp net SQL server, CRM document Management, product 132 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,720 planning, materials and management. He's author of cobosoft log, a fast and 133 00:09:20,759 --> 00:09:26,879 easy to use logging library and log viewer, and he's using naturally speaking intensely. 134 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:33,879 He's been since two thousand and two. Welcome Carl, and you're a 135 00:09:33,919 --> 00:09:35,919 longtime dot net rocks listener, are you not, Yes, it's about two 136 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:41,799 thousand and six. My started programing with Fishop about two thousand and two two 137 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:46,440 thousand and three, and later I discovered your podcast and then enjoyed it a 138 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,919 lot. Yeah, and the kind of things that you're into, you're kind 139 00:09:48,919 --> 00:09:52,639 of a generalist. It looks like you know, you're all over the map. 140 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,879 You do a lot of things. Yes, yeah, very cool. 141 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:01,200 So we're talking about AI in speech and all of that stuff, and you've 142 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,879 been it says you've been using Dragon Naturally Speaking, which you know isn't. 143 00:10:05,039 --> 00:10:09,399 I don't know if it was, it'd be considered AI. But it's certainly 144 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,720 been around a long time and did a really really good job, and I 145 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:18,080 guess still does. Does Naturally Speaking use AI on the back end? Now, 146 00:10:18,519 --> 00:10:22,960 yes, it is the two versions. So it's a testa person and 147 00:10:22,039 --> 00:10:28,480 so cloud version and so Cloud version is AI based, but it is more 148 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:33,600 an AI targeted to voice recognition. It's not like a check chippity, it's 149 00:10:33,759 --> 00:10:37,559 just to improve the quality. Right. Remember that story I told of the 150 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,879 African gray parrot named Timmy that we wired up at the X ten that was 151 00:10:41,919 --> 00:10:48,799 a Dragon Naturally Speaking board in the in the nineties hard hardware. Yeah cool. 152 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,360 Yeah, So he doesn't know that story, but basically Richard had a 153 00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:56,720 parrot with his friends and they they taught it to, you know, shut 154 00:10:56,759 --> 00:11:01,519 the blinds and turn on the TV with the naturally speaking turn off its own 155 00:11:01,919 --> 00:11:05,080 on its own lights. So you know, you just wanted to let the 156 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,840 parent have control of environment. We just didn't know the parrot like to go 157 00:11:07,879 --> 00:11:11,919 to bed early. He'd shut everything off at like seven, and if you 158 00:11:11,919 --> 00:11:13,200 try to turn it back off, he'd turned it back off again. I 159 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,120 remember you saying he used to do the car alarm. Oh yeah, he 160 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,120 need car alarms perfectly because didn't matter what time of the day or night. 161 00:11:20,159 --> 00:11:24,600 If he did the car alarm, you got up. Very cool, So, 162 00:11:24,919 --> 00:11:28,320 Jimmy, yeah, you could do the same with the naturally Speaking. 163 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:33,879 You could do your house automation and connective access to it and so on, 164 00:11:33,919 --> 00:11:37,919 because it's programma a programma. So yeah, So you use naturally speaking because 165 00:11:39,039 --> 00:11:41,080 it's the best thing that has been out there, or you've been using it 166 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:46,039 a long time or both both. Yes, I hadn't RSI a long time 167 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:50,759 ago, say about two thousand and four, and then I started using speech 168 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,879 input. I later solved this problem, but did the speech input proved to 169 00:11:54,919 --> 00:11:58,639 be very helpful to me. And so, as you know, you can 170 00:11:58,759 --> 00:12:03,480 use it for basic dictator, but it is also possible to use it for 171 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,720 programming, for example, And this is what I do in a lot. 172 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,759 I'm using it together, like for example, the chet chippyt say, I've 173 00:12:11,799 --> 00:12:16,679 got my chet chippydy window here open, and instead tape of typing all the 174 00:12:16,759 --> 00:12:20,840 long prompts, I can just dictate the prompts right, And so it's way 175 00:12:20,879 --> 00:12:28,679 faster. It's like it's more like community communication. Yes, I've telled it 176 00:12:28,759 --> 00:12:33,440 something presenter, it responds. You could even let it read the response, 177 00:12:33,759 --> 00:12:37,960 but I'm not using it. It would take longer. Yeah, yeah, 178 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,159 I think we can read faster than we can listen, right a lot. 179 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:46,559 Yeah. Interestingly, Mark Miller was spent the weekend at my house this last 180 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,600 weekend and he was showing me something he's going to show off at build in 181 00:12:50,759 --> 00:12:56,679 Code Rush, which is basically speech commands, like you hold down the control 182 00:12:56,759 --> 00:12:58,759 key televisual studio what you want to do, and it does it, and 183 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:05,240 you can even there's even macros to write code and things like that. It's 184 00:13:05,279 --> 00:13:11,080 just unbelievable. I've heard about this, But naturally speaking is much more flexible. 185 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,759 You can use it for any application, so you could control Windows or 186 00:13:16,279 --> 00:13:20,399 text processing or even visual studio or whatever you like. And so I've got 187 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:26,159 a lot of commands, like thousands or so, and i can controlling nearly 188 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:30,039 everything like when I start when I'm using visual Studio, I can say okay, 189 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,679 build solution, and it will just build my solution. Yeah, and 190 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:35,879 so on. Or if I want to insert the statement, if statement, 191 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,200 I say the properate command and we'll just type it and it doesn't matter if 192 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:46,080 it's one line or one hundred lines. So are you actually speaking code or 193 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:52,720 you're giving commands the studio both. It's it's completely flexible. Say the simplest 194 00:13:52,799 --> 00:13:58,039 use would be the just for documentation. Say I've got a summary head above 195 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:03,480 my method, and I would just dictate the summary instead of typing it out. 196 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,960 The moves my hands and it's way faster. It's really as fast as 197 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:13,000 we are talking right now. Probably write longer comments that way because because the 198 00:14:13,039 --> 00:14:16,480 other side of this is you're also effectively manifesting what you're going to code by 199 00:14:16,519 --> 00:14:20,320 describing it. Yeah, exactly. I got a question about microphones. I 200 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,759 noticed that you're using like a dictation kind of microphone with you know, the 201 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:31,799 MC comes over to your mouth headset, but I use the I have an 202 00:14:31,879 --> 00:14:37,840 Amazon Echo here and it's been pretty good about being able to pick up things 203 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,320 across the room. You can even whisper to it. And I never had 204 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:46,000 that experience with any Windows based kind of you know, just using a regular 205 00:14:46,039 --> 00:14:52,840 microphone. Do you think that there's like stuff in there to cancel noise and 206 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:56,440 you know, figure out exactly what I mean. That's the thing that's great 207 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:00,679 about Echo. Do you do you always use this headset or have you found 208 00:15:00,759 --> 00:15:05,879 other microphones that work with ambients, you know, like an ambient microphone. 209 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,600 I think it's exactly as you say, so AMASO and Alexa will have some 210 00:15:09,639 --> 00:15:15,720 noise canceling and additional tools to improve the noise quality. But the big difference 211 00:15:15,799 --> 00:15:22,559 is that Alexa has to listen to say hundreds of words, and naturally speaking 212 00:15:22,679 --> 00:15:30,440 vocabularies about hundreds of thousands of words, so there's some much bigger risk for 213 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:35,200 errors. So it's easily to confuse a personal name with the standard world and 214 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,120 so on. And I've noticed the same thing with that girl. Yeah yeah, 215 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,480 yeah, yeah. Ask it a question and it gives you an answer 216 00:15:41,519 --> 00:15:43,919 based on something you didn't even say. Okay, yeah, but it answers 217 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:50,279 enthusiastically, oh yeah, correctly, and it won't stop. I brought it 218 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,639 into the house and Kelly got used to it. But after a while, 219 00:15:54,679 --> 00:15:58,159 you know, when I say a she starts to give it the keyword and 220 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:04,600 then stop to stop barking. Kelly says, shut up, and it works. 221 00:16:04,799 --> 00:16:07,840 But hearing lies the real issue. I find what you know, watching 222 00:16:07,919 --> 00:16:11,600 voice systems being used in general, people don't mind it if it works the 223 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,720 first time, but as soon as it doesn't work the first time, then 224 00:16:15,759 --> 00:16:18,879 they feel done using it, so they don't want to use it anymore. 225 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,399 Yeah, you're right. This was the case like ten years ago or fifteen 226 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,600 years ago. When you started dictation, you really had to this is my 227 00:16:26,919 --> 00:16:32,120 next sentence. You know, you had to be very except on your pronunciation 228 00:16:32,279 --> 00:16:38,399 and gaps between the words. Nowadays it just like talking. It would it 229 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:42,559 would normally transcribe what we are saying. Now you can just record it and 230 00:16:42,639 --> 00:16:47,960 it would transcribe the text. And so so they've actually changed the underlying model 231 00:16:48,159 --> 00:16:52,960 in naturally speaking, to use the more contemporary libraries. Yeah, nearly every 232 00:16:52,039 --> 00:16:56,720 version, say, whenever you got a new version from twelve to thirteen or 233 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:02,799 fourteen, fifteen sixteen, it always improved recognition quality because I remember having to 234 00:17:02,879 --> 00:17:07,240 train a dragon board back in the day, and then you know that just 235 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,640 sort of went away almost a decade ago when you think about Siri and so 236 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,119 forth, like training was longer needed. Yeah, you're right when theow speech 237 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:18,079 wants you to train it to speak the paragraphs and stuff, and all of 238 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:22,759 these things now that are cloud based, like even Google Speech recognition is great. 239 00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:27,000 I mean it just uses the cloud, but it doesn't doesn't require training. 240 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:33,119 Do you have a keyword that you say, like when I use the 241 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,920 Amazon Echo or do you just press a particular button when you want to give 242 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:41,200 a command? No, it's normally it's turned on when I'm working. So 243 00:17:41,759 --> 00:17:45,880 I have a special keyboard button, but it's really you can define any buttons 244 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,400 as this button. So I've got a keyboard button. When I press it, 245 00:17:49,319 --> 00:17:53,240 it will turn onto microphone. And then when it's running, you can 246 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,039 say okay, microphone off, and then it's off and you have to press 247 00:17:57,039 --> 00:18:00,039 the button again. But you can say okay, go to sleep, then 248 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,319 continue listening. They say okay, wake up. Then it will come back 249 00:18:03,319 --> 00:18:07,599 again. So it's more less like I say, but when I'm really working, 250 00:18:07,599 --> 00:18:11,359 it's turned on all the time. Are you worried that somebody's gonna like 251 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,279 barge into the room and say, you know, order five thousand pounds of 252 00:18:15,319 --> 00:18:19,400 cement from Amazon. You know, it doesn't have this kind of connection. 253 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,680 It just will type it out. Has that ever happened to you, though? 254 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,559 Has somebody like gotten in the room and tried to screw everything up for 255 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,839 you as a joke? No, Once I met a big error. I 256 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:34,000 dictated in English a Trauman text and this was very bad. Oh that must 257 00:18:34,039 --> 00:18:38,759 be interesting and that without checking it okay, but we're not never do it 258 00:18:38,759 --> 00:18:42,119 again. That's pretty funny. Well, do you know there's another aspect of 259 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,839 this that I'm that appeals to me, which is that visual studio is a 260 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:51,119 difficult application to navigate. You know, it's like the cockpit of a seven 261 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,240 forty seven in there and then and the number of times I know it can 262 00:18:55,319 --> 00:18:59,640 do this thing, I just can't find the menu item. So the idea 263 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,400 that I could say this is what I want to do it and the speech 264 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,279 control system that can navigate the tool for me, that's very compelling. Like 265 00:19:07,319 --> 00:19:12,000 that's a ton of time saved rather than flailing around in MANYUS. Yeah, 266 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:17,279 that's exactly the point. Say I would say okay, synchronized class feew and 267 00:19:17,319 --> 00:19:21,559 it would pop up the class feel for the current class or method and similar 268 00:19:21,599 --> 00:19:26,599 stuff. Okay, show Solution Explorer it would show the solution SPRA or debugging 269 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,279 Locals it would show the debugging Locals window. So it's like I've wrote it 270 00:19:30,319 --> 00:19:33,640 in my email. It's like a third hand. Keep my right hand on 271 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,279 the mouth and the left hand on the function keys for example, and all 272 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,680 the typing would be done by naturally speaking by the voice. How where did 273 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,160 those hooks come from? Did you do that or is that already available? 274 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,920 It depends on what you're doing. Say if you were a writer and would 275 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:55,559 write a book, you would have thousands of commands already available, like make 276 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,160 that boat or make that italic and go to the top, go to the 277 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,759 bottom, select word. All of this is pretty fined and it's working fine. 278 00:20:03,759 --> 00:20:08,200 And let's say Microsoft Word and word Pad. But when you're having specific 279 00:20:08,559 --> 00:20:14,920 programs, like let's say Visual Studio, you have to define your own commands. 280 00:20:15,079 --> 00:20:18,359 There's no there are no pre build commands. But on the other hand, 281 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,599 it's very easy to do. It's like a huge shortcut manager. You 282 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:29,119 can you can write or dictate a command name and the end. Then for 283 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,640 example, you assign keystrokes and it would just repeat the keystrokes, but it's 284 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,559 a little bit advanced though. You can say okay, press all a, 285 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,440 then wait half a second, then press Charlie and so on, so it's 286 00:20:41,519 --> 00:20:48,920 like a huge keystroke macro manager. But you you don't have to remember remember 287 00:20:48,039 --> 00:20:53,279 any keystrokes for triggering it. You just say the command once you've done it, 288 00:20:53,279 --> 00:20:57,720 once you have. Have you ever had the situation where a new version 289 00:20:57,759 --> 00:21:03,359 of visual Studio remaps key strokes or changes them. I've got my own mapping, 290 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,759 which are usually key but yes, but it's easy to adapt. It's 291 00:21:08,319 --> 00:21:12,279 a matter of seconds you've adapted it. So you don't find that managing naturally 292 00:21:12,319 --> 00:21:15,519 speaking takes more time than you think it should. No, not at all, 293 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:22,039 not at all. There's a command browser. You can see all the 294 00:21:22,079 --> 00:21:26,680 commands. Basically, you've got two lists of commands. You've got you've got 295 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,480 the build in commands, and there's a browser for these, and you've got 296 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,799 your own commands, and there's also a browser, and it's very easy to 297 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:40,400 manage. I bet with co pilot this makes a killer combination, right because 298 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,279 now you can just speak a comment and then Copilot will actually write the code 299 00:21:44,279 --> 00:21:47,839 and you don't have to sit there going for each blah blah blah. Right, 300 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,920 yeah, but for each statements are a micro for me, I just 301 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,319 say okay, state for each and it will inserts a complete forage statement. 302 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:59,519 And that's with other stuff as well, So like if statements or standard HTML 303 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,920 marker or on any of this stuff I've got on a command. But your 304 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,039 macros don't know anything about the code that you're writing. The co pilot does. 305 00:22:10,519 --> 00:22:14,440 Yeah, so are you finding yourself using co pilot with naturally speaking more? 306 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:19,440 Now, I'm saying when code pilot presensive solution to me, I have 307 00:22:19,519 --> 00:22:25,680 to think about his suggestions and normally it takes more time than to just write 308 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,440 it down because I'm very fast. I'm doing this for many years. Now. 309 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,079 Do you have any videos of yourself writing code with naturally speaking that we 310 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:37,440 can see? I don't have any. I'm really really my interest is peaked 311 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,519 here. I could create one. Wow. Okay, well, if you 312 00:22:41,559 --> 00:22:44,000 create one, we'll put a link to it in the show notes. Okay, 313 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:47,000 it's fascinating. Just yeah, like you said, one hand on the 314 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,319 function keys, one hand on the mouse, and all the texts you're just 315 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,880 saying it. Yeah, So it's you know, you literally have a separate 316 00:22:53,279 --> 00:22:57,279 tool now to to keep these movies or your hands aren't bouncing back and forth. 317 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,559 Yeah, and it's much faster. I'm a quite fast typist. I'm 318 00:23:02,599 --> 00:23:07,400 not slow, but this thing is still a lot faster. Instead of typing 319 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,680 single characters, you get complete words, right, all right, So how 320 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:15,039 would you say? How would you say, use a link statement to pull 321 00:23:15,079 --> 00:23:18,200 a variable out from this list where this property value is between this value and 322 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:25,440 that value. I would more less dictate it as it's written, like a 323 00:23:25,519 --> 00:23:32,039 state variable index, equal sign, dictionary, empty brackets and so on. 324 00:23:32,519 --> 00:23:34,160 Okay, so you really are writing, So there is a point where you 325 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,839 have to dictate character by character code, Yes, depending on what I'm doing. 326 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,960 Yes, what about moving the cursor around like you've got to go back 327 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,759 and change your phrase? I guess that's the mouse's job. You can still 328 00:23:45,799 --> 00:23:48,240 do that with keyboard with that barron, left, arrow and tab. And 329 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,359 yes, I'm using the mouse and a keyboard as usually, but it is 330 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:57,079 possible to control the mouths and the keyboard with naturally speaking, you can say, 331 00:23:57,079 --> 00:24:03,119 okay, go left five, or say you want to go ten lines, 332 00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:07,839 go down ten, and so it's easier than pressing the Donkey ten times 333 00:24:07,079 --> 00:24:11,519 for sure. Yeah. So here's another question, but not by much. 334 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:17,400 Here's another question. Do you sell your macro library like your mappings? No? 335 00:24:18,559 --> 00:24:22,480 Would you want to? Because I think people listen to this want to 336 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,680 mind, Yes, sir, why not? Now you're into the accessibility space 337 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,720 in general, which is screen readers and like hardware dedicated for folks that have 338 00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:34,240 limitations in certain areas. Are you using any of that in your own work? 339 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:40,440 Yes, I've been using it. I had a rs I U many 340 00:24:40,519 --> 00:24:44,000 years ago, as I said previously, Yeah, and for some time I 341 00:24:44,039 --> 00:24:48,519 really was using naturally speaking to control everything just to save your wrists. Yeah, 342 00:24:48,559 --> 00:24:52,960 and I couldn't even shower. It was very bad. And you had 343 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,799 bad rs I. Friend, that's serious, like it hurts all the time. 344 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,480 Okay, can you just explain what RSI is repetitive stress? Insure you're 345 00:25:00,519 --> 00:25:04,599 okay? So again, our friend Mark Miller was very big on always wearing 346 00:25:04,599 --> 00:25:10,799 the races to reduce This is essentially caused by the tendons in your hand a 347 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,559 brady against the sheaths in your wrist to the point where they inflame and puff 348 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,960 up enough that they burn all the time. It's it's agonized Wow. So 349 00:25:21,039 --> 00:25:22,720 I know, as a guitar player, if I write a lot of code, 350 00:25:22,839 --> 00:25:26,599 if I'm coding all week, right, and then I go try to 351 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,079 play without practicing or warming up, my fingers don't know what to do. 352 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,559 And so you know it kind of is appealing to me. But does it 353 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,480 hurt like this, No, it doesn't hurt. But they just don't do 354 00:25:37,559 --> 00:25:38,839 what you want them to do, Like they don't move. You know, 355 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,839 your brain isn't used to sending the signals to play a scale. It's used 356 00:25:42,839 --> 00:25:47,640 to sending the signals to spell your name or your email chests. It's a 357 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,559 very different motion. But and I would argue, because you switch between those 358 00:25:51,599 --> 00:25:56,200 different motions, your hands are in better shape. Yeah, you're probably right, 359 00:25:56,279 --> 00:25:59,720 right. The problem with typing, all this typing all the time is 360 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,119 it's the same motions over and over. It's repetitive. Right. Plus there's 361 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:08,640 also a whole conversation about wrist angles and and keyboard heights related to the table 362 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:14,640 to share heights, like that ergonomics of minimizing stress on your rest because once 363 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:19,119 you go down that inflammation path forever, will it haunt your destiny? Like 364 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:25,200 as soon as as soon as your wrists start to be inflamed. Like everything, 365 00:26:25,279 --> 00:26:27,480 it gets worse and worse and worse. Yeah, there are two points, 366 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,319 so and you mentioned one of them already. At this time I had 367 00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:37,079 the PIT twelve deficiency and it was measured and a lap and so I substituted 368 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:41,200 it. And it improves the situation a lot because pit twelve goes on all 369 00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:48,000 the sheds like nerve, fair and shes and and you know it's it causes 370 00:26:48,039 --> 00:26:52,480 inflammation when it's missing. Yeah, and the other point is missing plot flow. 371 00:26:52,759 --> 00:26:59,400 So the hands are not exercised enough. It's this repetitive, repetitive movement 372 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,799 which all it's the same, but it doesn't really use the hands. And 373 00:27:02,839 --> 00:27:07,400 so so as a solution for me was to do some training, heavy weights 374 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:12,000 training, and this helped a lot. This really hap It will hurt initially. 375 00:27:12,039 --> 00:27:17,279 It will hurt initially because there's an inflammation, but on so long run 376 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:22,440 it will improve. That's a flow of blood and lymph fluid, and so 377 00:27:22,279 --> 00:27:26,960 I don't have this problem anymore. Physiologically, typing is bizarre. It is 378 00:27:27,039 --> 00:27:33,240 kind of right to just flex the tendons while not moving the arm almost at 379 00:27:33,279 --> 00:27:37,680 all, Like it's very your body wasn't built for this. This is crazy, 380 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,839 So I mean the whole I'm a big Pomadoro fan like that. Twenty 381 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,559 minutes, get up, move around, and so forth. That's about just 382 00:27:44,599 --> 00:27:48,920 making your blood move right, arms over your head, arms down like that. 383 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,039 All that's making blood move, which does not happen when you're hovering over 384 00:27:52,079 --> 00:27:57,400 the keyboard. The problem is you get in the groove and four hours go 385 00:27:57,519 --> 00:28:00,680 by, yep, and you're a couple of happy exactly where you're sitting. 386 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,039 The moment you move in any way, you're like, I'm in agony, 387 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:08,759 like everything hurts you get up and you didn't realize your assert that much and 388 00:28:08,839 --> 00:28:14,160 now I'm struggling to get up right and because you just you've been in the 389 00:28:14,279 --> 00:28:19,640 zone. Are there situations where you're using software apart from visual Studio software that 390 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:26,680 you're trying to automate and there are things that are only menu options or buttons 391 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,839 that you have to click. There are no keyboard shortcuts. What do you 392 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,000 do in that situation? If it has no keyboard trot cut at all, 393 00:28:34,039 --> 00:28:38,640 it's a little bit harder. But there's the second way. The program can 394 00:28:38,759 --> 00:28:44,839 recognize certain screen elements like, for example, standard buttons or proser buttons and 395 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,480 everything. They say. All of these are recognized by naturally just speaking itself, 396 00:28:49,559 --> 00:28:52,839 or by its plugins. So when you're in a standard Windows program, 397 00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:57,279 you can say okay, click open, click safe, click order, and 398 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,000 when you're on a Prouse or you can all. There are also commands, 399 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,880 for example to list all links, or list all buttons and so on, 400 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,960 and suse okay, click five or or click one, and so it will 401 00:29:08,039 --> 00:29:15,640 navigate. But if it's graphics only, application becomes very hard, say a 402 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,640 game, for example, if there are no standard Windows elements, it's nearly 403 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,359 impossible. Nearly impossible. Yeah, yeah, interesting, interesting problems. So 404 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,519 just dart a solution to everything. But this is also where you get into 405 00:29:27,519 --> 00:29:32,839 that accessibility part. Good software has multiple ways to do a given task because 406 00:29:32,839 --> 00:29:36,759 different people have different abilities. Yeah, exactly, And this is what we're 407 00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:41,519 doing. There are you will know, semantic markup in HTML and this is 408 00:29:41,519 --> 00:29:45,680 the first step. Then there are all these area at tags and other messets 409 00:29:45,759 --> 00:29:51,559 to get it accessible. And I've been doing this for some time and know 410 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,720 some more experts in this area. And then you get the website which is 411 00:29:55,759 --> 00:30:00,920 completely can be navigated by voice, you can its content, you can everything 412 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:06,000 by voice. That's cool. We've and we've done that show right, like 413 00:30:06,079 --> 00:30:10,079 we've talked about access building with both sides. Okay, hey guys, let's 414 00:30:10,119 --> 00:30:14,240 continue the conversation after this quick break for some very important messages. We'll be 415 00:30:14,279 --> 00:30:21,920 right backed and we're back. It's dot Net Rocks. I'm Carl Franklin. 416 00:30:22,119 --> 00:30:26,720 That's Richard Campbell. How do you And we're talking to Carl geist about doing 417 00:30:26,759 --> 00:30:32,039 everything with speech that you can do with your hands almost. I do like 418 00:30:32,079 --> 00:30:33,759 the mix. There's some things that are served well by the hands, and 419 00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:37,559 some things were served well by the voice, like writing a longer comment because 420 00:30:37,599 --> 00:30:41,519 I can go on and on makes a lot of sense. Yeah, or 421 00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:44,680 writing a book on the history of dot net, for example, that might 422 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,240 be a good thing to use. I don't know the absolutely did I say 423 00:30:49,279 --> 00:31:00,319 something wrong Richard? Anyway? So so let's talk about some of the practical 424 00:31:00,839 --> 00:31:03,599 things that you're using this for within visual studio itself. I imagine you've piqued 425 00:31:03,599 --> 00:31:11,119 the interest of our listeners, especially those you know who might have limited hand 426 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:17,960 movement. So just give us a quick example of something that you You mentioned 427 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,839 a couple of macros in the way that you set up projects and things, 428 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:26,559 but what are the give us a run through the how you would typically go 429 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,880 about programming a new app web app. Let's say, like how do you 430 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,799 drag and drop elements from one window to another? For example? What are 431 00:31:34,799 --> 00:31:40,319 some of the more challenging things for drag and drop? I have to use 432 00:31:40,359 --> 00:31:45,440 some mouse, so that's maybe not the way you can put control of the 433 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,680 mouse by voice, but it's it's very hard to do it very slow. 434 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,960 And then normally, say when I would start debugging, I would say okay, 435 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,240 dee buck run and then it would start debugging. Or I would say 436 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,759 okay, let's say de buck breake pund and would set the breakpoint. And 437 00:32:00,839 --> 00:32:06,839 then I've got different variations. You might know the safe we web tools have 438 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,680 different keyboard short cuts, so I've got different keyboard short cuts like for a 439 00:32:10,759 --> 00:32:16,599 browser and the development and environment, and that's safe for for running commands. 440 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,920 And then when I want to dictate a statement, for example, I would 441 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,799 say okay, state for each and it would just write the complete for each 442 00:32:24,799 --> 00:32:30,200 statement, and or you have to fill in the values obviously for each what 443 00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:34,640 you know, yeah, but it's it will normally trigger a snippet of visually 444 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,640 snippet and the stimple will place the curse on the right location. So I'm 445 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,759 combining these two. I've I've got balance snippets. I've got the standard snippets 446 00:32:43,319 --> 00:32:46,960 and many times and triggering snippets by using voice commands. So I've got one 447 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,160 little more flexibility. And if you're at a breakpoint, can you examine the 448 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,440 value of a variable without using your hands? Normally I would say okay, 449 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:58,960 deva locals and it will would show the locals window, or deebug inspect it 450 00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:04,359 will show this F nine variable inspection window and so on, wow and so 451 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,880 or I've got one debug variables which should which you all like locals watch and 452 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:16,319 whatever. It would show multiple windows. And then let's say, look up 453 00:33:16,319 --> 00:33:23,079 this exception value on with chat BT. Can you you could? I've got 454 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:31,480 miracles, say yeah, Say but I've got a micro for example, where 455 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,440 I can select the text and say look up that, and it would open 456 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,640 the browser and look up this this code. Cool, And so I'm I'm 457 00:33:39,799 --> 00:33:45,200 saving say twenty keystrocks or so I swear to god you could sell this library 458 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:52,559 of macros. I wouldn't mind. I've been selling share before, so yeah, 459 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:57,319 be a problem. Say there's one statement like source block, it would 460 00:33:57,359 --> 00:34:01,279 select the complete if statement, and so variations which would select the if statement 461 00:34:01,359 --> 00:34:06,440 and some surrounding statements or only the inner part of the if statement and so 462 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,079 on, and so I'm saving a lot of time. Sometimes it's like twenty 463 00:34:10,119 --> 00:34:16,320 keystrucks so more. Or like you're looking for record expression, say this typical 464 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:22,280 record expression for identifiers like a too set zero to nine underscore blah blah, 465 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:27,679 and this would be regas expression a recas identifier, and it would select. 466 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,960 It would just type it out. And you might notice that I'm using kind 467 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:40,719 of reverse notation, so I say debug run or yeah, it's always reverse, 468 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,440 And this is intentionally so I can find all debugging commands. And by 469 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:51,320 doing this, it's also possible over a remote desktop connection for example. Sure 470 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,440 it doesn't mind. Say I can go to an RDP session use my same 471 00:34:55,480 --> 00:35:00,519 commands as before without any problems. You don't have to install anything on the 472 00:35:00,599 --> 00:35:06,079 RDP on the VM. You mean, I think you mentioned this when you 473 00:35:06,119 --> 00:35:08,960 when you're navigating menus, you can just literally read what's on the screen, 474 00:35:09,079 --> 00:35:14,000 right, You can say menu file or something like that, and then you 475 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,039 know, like if there isn't a keyboard shortcut, but there's a menu shortcut. 476 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:20,239 Yes, you could say file blah blah blah blah blah blah, and 477 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,880 whatever you see on the screen, you can read right and it will select 478 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:29,280 it if it's recognizable. Say there are some Windows accessibility features, and if 479 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,760 the target program supports you can say, okay, click file, click open, 480 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,920 click tools, click settings. This is possible. If it's like a 481 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:43,519 graphics only application, it's not possible. It's the program you cannot recognize anything. 482 00:35:43,639 --> 00:35:49,119 But most Windows menus usually have a keyboard hot key associated with it, 483 00:35:49,199 --> 00:35:52,039 so you could just say press A, press B whatever exactly as you say. 484 00:35:52,119 --> 00:35:55,440 You could say, okay, press all, control print screen, This 485 00:35:55,599 --> 00:36:00,199 is possible, press chift, control entro. It's also possible. Bring up 486 00:36:00,199 --> 00:36:06,800 notepad, paste video, run paste clipboard. I'm always done how many times 487 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:08,559 I run notead given day, still to this day, Like, Yeah, 488 00:36:08,599 --> 00:36:12,599 it's just it's the bok place I put things. You know what you use 489 00:36:12,639 --> 00:36:15,599 it for. I use it as a text filter, Like you pull something 490 00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:19,480 off of the of a website and before you paste it into email, you 491 00:36:19,519 --> 00:36:28,159 want to remove all the formatting. You just ASKI by you, I think 492 00:36:28,159 --> 00:36:30,800 you would already expect it. But I've got a micro for this. Yeah, 493 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:36,760 of course you do. We're going into business a paste text micro and 494 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,760 if we just remove all the garbage, it's paste text. Wow. Yeah, 495 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,760 it's a good. Wow. That's cool. Yeah. How many times 496 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,079 you've been copied a URL and found out you don't have it? You don't 497 00:36:45,079 --> 00:36:49,239 actually have that ur ur l you have fifteen trackers that eventually lead to URL. 498 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,199 Perhaps maybe Yeah, all right, let's we gotta go. We gotta 499 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,519 keep going with your awesome macros. Here tell us that some of the other 500 00:36:54,760 --> 00:37:00,000 really productivity enhancing macros you have, whether visual studio or not. Let's say 501 00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:06,920 I'm also controlling Outlook, and say there are two ways to control other applications. 502 00:37:07,639 --> 00:37:08,880 One option is to have a plug in, like, for example, 503 00:37:09,039 --> 00:37:14,480 there's an exit blocking or word plugging or Outlook plugin and so on. There 504 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,199 are other options to write your own macros. And so I've got a lot 505 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:22,280 of micros, for example, for Outlook to switch the text language. Say 506 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:27,320 I'm dictating in say two three different languages, and so I've got a macro 507 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,960 for just switching the languages. You know, how I control Outlook? I 508 00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:37,840 use Gmail. That's how okay. Could I say that out loud? Yeah 509 00:37:38,199 --> 00:37:44,400 okay? Or say, I've got templates for the ciffix of a letter, 510 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,440 the prefix of a letter, all kinds of salutations and so on, So 511 00:37:47,679 --> 00:37:51,800 I don't have the type okay, dear sir or madam. Now I just 512 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,280 say it wow, and it will write it for me. You know this 513 00:37:54,639 --> 00:37:59,800 laurum ipsum text template all the people are using in the web, I've got 514 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:06,719 it. Macro texts yeah, lower mid some and say, I've also got 515 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,840 to say text templates for say you want to test text, test an input, 516 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:15,199 feel if it's if you can fit one one hundred characters. So I've 517 00:38:15,199 --> 00:38:22,719 got templates which create like small rulers from Escui characters and it is exactly one 518 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,920 hundred characters, and you can see if it fits or not. And I've 519 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,519 got one for one thousand characters and so on, and so it's it's very 520 00:38:30,519 --> 00:38:35,199 handy for testing. Sure, it allows repetitions. For example, as I 521 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,079 told you, you can say okay, go up one hundred. But you 522 00:38:38,079 --> 00:38:43,039 can also have your own macros repeat. So if you've got one macro and 523 00:38:43,079 --> 00:38:46,880 then you can have another one and say okay, repeat it twenty times. 524 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,840 And it will repeat the macro twenty times. Wow, I'm stunned. They 525 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,920 just yeah, And I can see how you just gradually accumulate these. You 526 00:38:55,199 --> 00:39:00,320 write a macro once and then you get to keep reusing. It saves you 527 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,519 a lot of work, a lot of you can because it's it's basic. 528 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,960 It's programmable, programmable in the basic language. So it has a very old, 529 00:39:08,119 --> 00:39:12,880 very small basic in the inside, and you can write all kinds of 530 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,880 clip statements. You can access the clipboard, you can access your last dictation 531 00:39:19,519 --> 00:39:22,960 words and so on. So it's it's very flexible. And so like I 532 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:28,840 mentioned, I'm also of the coples of logging library. And so when I 533 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,199 say okay, lockdow world both, it will insert the lock for both statement. 534 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:37,440 When I say okay lock doot warning, it will insert the warning statement. 535 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:42,719 But only log dot is a fixed part and the last part is flexible. 536 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,000 It's it it's accessing the word I said, And so you have lots 537 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:50,960 of possibilities here. And as I told you, it's it's like a third 538 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:52,719 hand. I've I've got my hand on the mouth and the function keys and 539 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:57,360 so on, and most of the typing is being done by by voice. 540 00:39:57,519 --> 00:40:00,320 You just don't have to deal with it. I know it's I say, 541 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,280 I love to see the video because it definitely is a rhythm, you know, 542 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,280 of a flow right to what that would look like? Yeah, I 543 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:12,360 mentioned flow, you mentioned the debugger, but where does that end up going? 544 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,239 Like ultimately, I guess you're getting back to a piece of code you 545 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,760 need to correct. At least, I didn't understand the question, like when 546 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:22,559 you when you're I'm just thinking about the debugging workflow. It's different from the 547 00:40:22,599 --> 00:40:25,480 coding workflow. You certainly can start the debugger, you set a break point, 548 00:40:25,559 --> 00:40:30,599 you run, you drop to the break point. Now you're checking values, 549 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:34,920 maybe tweaking some code and continuing. Yes, that's right, Yeah, 550 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,199 but it's this has the same statements. I've got lots of say, seventy 551 00:40:38,599 --> 00:40:44,760 debugging statements, and I'm running them all the time, like looking at variables 552 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:52,960 or showing certain windows and so on, continuing breaking whatever, set next statement. 553 00:40:53,199 --> 00:40:59,000 Okay, so but that's a normal process. Step step step step step. 554 00:40:59,119 --> 00:41:05,119 Okay, that gets old. I've I've got my fingers on the keyboard 555 00:41:05,159 --> 00:41:09,880 and I'm using the function keys for this, right, But talking talking about 556 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:15,400 the flow, say, writing a longer comment would get you out of flow 557 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,920 when programming. But when you when you type it, when you say it, 558 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,960 when you say it, when you're talking to the machine, it's way 559 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:27,960 faster. And as you mentioned before, it's like talking to myself. I 560 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:32,079 repeat my programming ideas in a different language, meaning a natural human language, 561 00:41:32,599 --> 00:41:37,840 and so I can reflect on what I'm writing here. And sometimes I'm doing 562 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:44,079 this very excessively, say oh, I've got normally I've got some wordpat open 563 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:50,119 or word open, and I write my concepts down by using speech and collect 564 00:41:50,159 --> 00:41:52,840 them and arrange them, and then I start writing code. So it's useful 565 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:57,239 on this part too. And what I also can do you you know, 566 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,360 all of you. You know pentot net. This is pending application, and 567 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:06,079 it's also possible to automate thee is like for inside for example, for inserting 568 00:42:06,079 --> 00:42:12,880 a picture and song. All of this is possible by voice commands or say 569 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,039 many times a day. You have to write the current date and time, 570 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:20,559 or say only the date, like for example when opening a kit branch or 571 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,840 giving a file name or whatever it's on a macro. I've got a macro, 572 00:42:24,119 --> 00:42:30,760 or say different six or eight which insert current date time in different formats 573 00:42:30,199 --> 00:42:35,480 and then I've got all my posonial information like street or address, or or 574 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,320 phone number or whatever. It's also on macros, so when I'm filling out 575 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,960 the form, I just don't worry. I've got my street correct, my 576 00:42:43,079 --> 00:42:46,079 phone number correct, and so on. But there's one point where you have 577 00:42:46,119 --> 00:42:52,480 to be careful because you're writing an email by voice. There will be no 578 00:42:52,599 --> 00:42:57,639 typos because this system will just take the words from its dictionary and insert them. 579 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,639 But sometimes it gets the words completely wrong. So it's a spell checker 580 00:43:01,599 --> 00:43:06,000 will not find anything, but if you'll still be wrong right, And that's 581 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,960 the point where you have to be careful always, or tool like grammarly would 582 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:14,679 catch that better than the spell checker will. Yeah. So here's a quick 583 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:19,440 question, and I think you touched on this before, but are you more 584 00:43:21,119 --> 00:43:28,039 confident about using any web site in a browser than if you, for example, 585 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,159 download a new Windows application. Now you have to figure out all the 586 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:36,599 keyboard shortcuts because it's in the browser. Does that help, like you feel 587 00:43:36,599 --> 00:43:38,880 more confident go into any site and being able to manipulate it and do what 588 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:44,320 you want to do with naturally speaking, then it would be getting a new 589 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,880 program. No, I'm not using naturally speaking a lot for websites, it 590 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:52,280 is possible, but it's say, for me, it's not necessary. I 591 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:57,360 can use my hands and so I'm not using a lot. But what you're 592 00:43:57,519 --> 00:44:00,000 saying, it's right saying I'm doing it. I'm doing a lot of user 593 00:44:00,039 --> 00:44:05,800 interface and usability and so on. And I've seen that many people are more 594 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,519 confident when using the mouse or touch screens and so on, so it's easier 595 00:44:09,679 --> 00:44:14,679 just point and click and test it. It's you don't have to remember any 596 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:20,039 shortcuts. That's that's fair. Yeah, But on in my client base, 597 00:44:20,679 --> 00:44:24,519 you clearly see different users, kinds of users. Some are using the mouse 598 00:44:24,559 --> 00:44:29,639 all of the time and some and some really want keyboard short cuts because they 599 00:44:29,679 --> 00:44:34,480 want to work fast, and so you can support both. There's no problem 600 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,679 at all. It's you can support keyboard short but touch voice input all at 601 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:43,320 the same time. And getting back to the better know framework, which was 602 00:44:44,559 --> 00:44:50,079 the warp command line thing, I imagine that command line interfaces are a lot 603 00:44:50,159 --> 00:44:53,679 easier to use a Dragon interface just because of the nature of you know, 604 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:59,280 your text in text out easy. Yeah, you're right, so PowerShell maybe, 605 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,280 Yeah, it depends on what you're writing, like write a push REQUI 606 00:45:02,559 --> 00:45:07,639 write a pull request in the command line to gethub with your voice. That's 607 00:45:07,679 --> 00:45:13,880 a lot of dashes and well macros right, macros y micro create for the 608 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,039 data. You can even have macros with prompts. You could have a base 609 00:45:16,119 --> 00:45:20,920 macro and it prompts you in the middle for some argument and it would complete 610 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,239 the same Yeah, what's the thing you want here? Exactly? Yeah, 611 00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:27,239 but I do get it. You know, things that command line tools, 612 00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:30,320 they have a lot of arguments like f FM PEG or any kind of you 613 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:36,000 know, get new face piping and power show type. Yeah. Right, 614 00:45:37,079 --> 00:45:39,440 that's why you need a macro. Yeah, but I've got one example that's 615 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:45,519 really working fine in sequel. Sequel is a language which can be spoken very 616 00:45:45,519 --> 00:45:50,519 well. So I've got some like siquel select. I've got such a statement 617 00:45:50,559 --> 00:45:53,880 which will write out a base a sickle select segment and then I can okay 618 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:59,320 sequel from sequel to a sequel like and it would just in a very very 619 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:04,239 high speed out to command. So and I used to use use some some 620 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:08,639 Microsoft Cycle commands. You know, if it's a command land utility and it's 621 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,280 using speech, is very very outfoot here. You know, you talk about 622 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,360 that English has a funny order to things that you want to say debug run 623 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:20,920 not run debug it. Certainly SQL has that problem where really you want the 624 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,559 from clause first, you want to tell you these are the tables I want 625 00:46:23,599 --> 00:46:27,920 to play with. Then this is what I want to fetch from it? 626 00:46:28,119 --> 00:46:31,320 Then they here are the filters or the restrictions on what chipo. Yeah, 627 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:35,639 you got to always write the wear clause before the delete clause, right, 628 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,360 that's me now, I know, yeah, sure, yeah, you know, 629 00:46:40,679 --> 00:46:45,079 you're right. You could do the from, You could do the from 630 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,039 and the where before you've even decided in my retrieving data, deleting data, 631 00:46:49,119 --> 00:46:51,639 updated data like its own separate things. You're stuck with this. You just 632 00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:53,679 have to break those pieces of part. We are stuck with this. It's 633 00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:58,840 a standard and we have to just get the custom Yes, yeah, but 634 00:46:59,079 --> 00:47:00,519 I mean, you know it's interesting when you think that way is as you 635 00:47:00,599 --> 00:47:05,280 get those conditionals in play, it could be queery and telling you how many 636 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,599 rose that's going to be all along before you've even actually said okay, well 637 00:47:08,639 --> 00:47:13,199 now show me this or take this action on that set. But you know 638 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,599 the shape of the set just by describing it. Yeah, but what I'm 639 00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,960 I'm just thinking chat. I'll say I've got cheat schippd all most of the 640 00:47:20,039 --> 00:47:24,719 time, and it is very good at creating sick with statements nice. So 641 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:29,440 you can say, okay, I've got fist sea shop class here, and 642 00:47:29,519 --> 00:47:31,960 you past the sea shop class and say, hey, please write a select 643 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:38,199 segment for fift sea shop class nice normally do it without errors. And I'm 644 00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:43,679 using the clickouse database right now, and here's the same. So I can 645 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,480 ask, okay, give me a creat table statement for this sea shop class 646 00:47:49,519 --> 00:47:52,559 and it will do it nominally. You know, chat gipt does better with 647 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:58,440 languages other than English, doesn't it. It does, And what I mean 648 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:04,400 it's a sea sharp programming languages SEQL. It tends to get those things better 649 00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,320 more accurately than it does. I mean, of course the grammar and is 650 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,840 stuff is fine, but you know, Lisa's not trying to mix facts with 651 00:48:12,039 --> 00:48:15,920 language. It's astonishingly could say I asked it today for a TOSK command. 652 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:21,039 It got it right. Normally, it gets a secret statements right most of 653 00:48:21,079 --> 00:48:23,679 the time. It gets a c shop statements right. And the good thing 654 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:28,719 is it will output say you formulate a prompt for the stuff you need and 655 00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,320 it will out puts a complete code. I want to ask it for some 656 00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:37,639 binary coding stuff. It was very good. I wanted to work it all, 657 00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:38,880 but it was very cool. On the other hand, you know, 658 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:45,440 I was listening to an old Soul Live record today. The guitar players sounded 659 00:48:45,559 --> 00:48:49,760 very familiar. It sounded like John Schofield, and I looked at the name 660 00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,840 of the tune and I asked j gpt as John Scofield ever played on the 661 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:57,079 Soul Live tune blah blah blah, and said, no, that was the 662 00:48:57,119 --> 00:49:00,800 original guitar player blah blah blah. I looked on Wikipedi. No, I 663 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,960 was right, it was go. It was recognized his hand. I recognize 664 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,519 that sound. So yeah, that's what I mean. I mean, you 665 00:49:08,559 --> 00:49:13,920 know, with English queries it has to get facts and mix that in with 666 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,400 the language. It can give you the wrong answer in a very eloquent and 667 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:22,320 beautiful way. But with programming languages, sequel languages, there's really only one 668 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,880 answer, you know, and the compiler always gets to say, which is 669 00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:30,760 pretty useful. I've been thinking now that to Aaron's comment as well, like, 670 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:36,400 is this unsatisfying that you didn't write the query yourself and I think describing 671 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,960 the goal and having the tool assembled the bits like we've always done this, 672 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:44,719 there's always been a library you're recalling to. I mean, and I want 673 00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,199 you hit this right early on Carl Franklin because we have two Carls of the 674 00:49:47,199 --> 00:49:52,199 show. Doesn't make this more difficult then writing a good comment with then you 675 00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,719 have something good Hub Copile, Like half the time it's going to spew the 676 00:49:54,719 --> 00:50:00,159 code from the comment anyway, Is that unsatisfying? I don't think it is. 677 00:50:00,159 --> 00:50:01,840 Is like, yeah, that's what I was thinking. Wouldn't go and 678 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,960 tweak it for me? For me, if this is okay, why should 679 00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,119 I write a complete secret statement when it can do it for me. Yeah, 680 00:50:08,159 --> 00:50:12,840 it's just yeah, I know, you know, it's like using a 681 00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,920 manual thrill or an elective elective trill. You want the hold, you want 682 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,960 to hold, yes, and the machine is doing it. So what it's 683 00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,960 okay, it's okay. The thing that wouldn't be it wouldn't be satisfying is 684 00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:25,000 if I didn't understand what it was saying, right, if it if I 685 00:50:25,039 --> 00:50:29,199 didn't understand the output. And you know, that's the thing, like we 686 00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:30,920 all grew up doing these things by hand. We learned how they work, 687 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,880 we learned how sequel works, and then when something does it for us, 688 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,679 we're delighted because we know exactly what it says. But somebody who just you 689 00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:44,400 know, asks CHTGBT for a sequel statement and they plug in and it magically 690 00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,800 works. That's to me, would be scary if I didn't know. There's 691 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:53,280 a lot of discussion going on about the risks of just copy and pasting generated 692 00:50:53,360 --> 00:51:00,119 code into programs, the security different from stack overflow and every other way that 693 00:51:00,159 --> 00:51:05,280 we've gotten code that we didn't write. Stack overflow, you kind of they 694 00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,480 explain it though, you can read through the narrative of the problem, and 695 00:51:08,559 --> 00:51:12,960 somebody, yeah, well when it works well, and chat GPT does a 696 00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:16,440 good job of explaining code too, it's just always correct correct, just like 697 00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:22,039 the folks on stack overflow. Yeah, yeah, fair point. Anyway, 698 00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:24,679 So what's next for you, Carl? What's in your inbox? What are 699 00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:30,000 you working on? I will continue working on this IoT application, and this 700 00:51:30,079 --> 00:51:37,400 is my manual application occupation right now. I'm there designing data structures and say 701 00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,239 a very flexible computation kernel which can be changed on the fly. So as 702 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,320 as a code can be changed on the fly, so it is doing some 703 00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:49,239 background compilation of c sharp and on Zaza. And I'm still in my big 704 00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:57,639 industrial application where we've implemented a very large solution for our clients and say different 705 00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:04,679 consulting tasks around like I'm doing consulting regarding naturally speaking for some client, lots 706 00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:09,199 of stuff. Very good. Well, yeah, definitely, let's talk offline 707 00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:15,320 about making that your your macro library available because I imagine that people would really 708 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:19,519 be interested in that. And also if we don't have it in your bio, 709 00:52:19,679 --> 00:52:23,840 how can people get in touch with you? Easiest way would be email 710 00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:29,079 address, but you have to provide it to you first. There's a commanding 711 00:52:29,159 --> 00:52:31,840 feature on my website. Yeah, reclue the link to cobasoft and there is 712 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:37,280 a contact page there. Yeah, we'll do that. Very good, Carl 713 00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:42,840 Geets, thank you very much. This has been very very enlightening. Yes, 714 00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,719 you're welcome, all right, and we'll talk to you next time on 715 00:52:45,800 --> 00:53:09,199 dot net rocks. Dot net rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and 716 00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:15,599 produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post production facility 717 00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:20,800 located physically in New London, Connecticut. And of course in the cloud online 718 00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,559 at pwop dot com. Visit our website at d O T N E t 719 00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:30,679 R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, 720 00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:34,800 comments, and access to the full archives going back to show number one, 721 00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,039 recorded in September two thousand and two. And make sure you check out 722 00:53:38,039 --> 00:53:42,880 our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now go write some code, 723 00:53:43,239 --> 00:54:01,800 See you next time. You got javans and