WEBVTT 1 00:00:27.640 --> 00:00:30.839 Welcome back to the Path with Chili for part two of our series about the 2 00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:34.719 murders of Harold and Thelma Swain. So now let's dive right back into what 3 00:00:34.759 --> 00:00:39.200 we were discussing and getting back to Vanzola Williams. Like when she first looked 4 00:00:39.200 --> 00:00:44.000 at the photograph, she failed to identify Perry, but then she changes her 5 00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:46.960 mind and says, oh, now that I look at his photo, that 6 00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:50.799 might be the guy I saw, even though by this point nearly fifteen years 7 00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:55.200 have passed, so her memory is obviously going to be more hazy and lo 8 00:00:55.359 --> 00:00:58.560 and behold. When they had a pre trial hearing, like Vanzola in her 9 00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:03.280 initial statement did not discribe the killer as wearing glasses, but then she suddenly 10 00:01:03.320 --> 00:01:06.280 changes her mind and then says that, oh, yeah, I remember him 11 00:01:06.319 --> 00:01:10.239 wearing glasses. So it's kind of those things where she's not being nefarious, 12 00:01:10.359 --> 00:01:14.359 but you're kind of thinking that she's suffering from confirmation bias because police have told 13 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:17.200 her that, well, we think this guy's the killer, and we think 14 00:01:17.239 --> 00:01:19.920 he wore glasses. At the time, she's thinking to herself, well, 15 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:23.599 maybe I misremembered things and I really did see this guy and he was wearing 16 00:01:23.640 --> 00:01:29.000 glasses, and unfortunately this became the primary evidence and led to Dennis being charged 17 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:34.760 with murder. That's super frustrating because you've got situations where you're showing one picture, 18 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:38.000 which is not protocol. There's typically like what like six or eight photos, 19 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:42.640 And I've heard of investigators using like a photo where it's closer up, 20 00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:47.319 or there's one color photo and the rest are black and white. Things like 21 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:53.599 that where maybe they're subconsciously doing it right, they're trying to make it so 22 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:57.560 that the witness picks that person out, but maybe they don't realize that they're 23 00:01:57.560 --> 00:02:01.640 doing it. But you can't really excuse me way Bundy's methods here. He 24 00:02:01.959 --> 00:02:06.079 knows better that isn't the way that it's done, and it wasn't done that 25 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:09.879 way in nineteen eighty five either, So he has no excuse. And when 26 00:02:09.879 --> 00:02:15.919 you got one witness that's on the ground after an accident and you're bothering her 27 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:19.800 with questions about this cold case, you couldn't wait until after she got the 28 00:02:19.840 --> 00:02:23.240 care that she needed at a hospital. Just it's just like his lack of 29 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:29.280 self awareness is just I'm baffled, exactly. And just so when you think 30 00:02:29.319 --> 00:02:31.400 that this guy was supposed to be a specialist, Like they used money to 31 00:02:31.759 --> 00:02:36.120 bring him in to solve cases like this, and he's using like all these 32 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:39.639 terrible methods. And then you make a comparison to the original investigator, Joe 33 00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:44.400 Gregory with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, who was no longer at the case 34 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:46.680 at this point, but like we said, he did a throw check into 35 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:51.560 Dennis Perry's alibi. He cleared him as a suspect. And it's pretty crazy 36 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:54.800 to think that Gregory would later testify at the trial, and he also make 37 00:02:54.919 --> 00:03:00.879 remarks to the newspapers after Dennis Perry's conviction where he flat out said this guy 38 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:02.840 did not do it. The wrong guy is in prison right now. And 39 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:07.400 it's very rare to see this conflict between different investigators on a case where one 40 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:10.000 of them is certain they've got the right guy and that they've solved the case, 41 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:14.879 but one of the previous investigators is saying is willing to publicly say they've 42 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:19.240 screwed this up in a big way and they've gotten the wrong guy. Wow, 43 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:23.759 it's just across the board. I'm like you, I'm not usually shocked 44 00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:29.000 with these cases, but this one is, like, it's mind boggling. 45 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:32.439 I don't even know how the investigators could have behaved the way that they behaved 46 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:36.439 here, and how this could have even happened, how Dennis Perry could have 47 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:39.039 been brought up on charges. I'm just pulling my hair out. And what's 48 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:44.520 even worse is that after Dennis was charged with two counts of a first degree 49 00:03:44.599 --> 00:03:46.840 murder, he was offered a plea deal in which he could plead guilty to 50 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:52.840 two charges a voluntary manslader, and in exchange he would only receive a twelve 51 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:57.280 year prison sentence, which all thinkings considered that this was a cold blooded murder 52 00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:00.919 in which he walked into a church and shot to innocent peace people, that 53 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:03.639 would be a pretty good deal if he was guilty, But nonetheless, Dennis 54 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:08.120 still turned it down, saying I did not commit this crime. I want 55 00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:11.240 to go to trial. And it's always a red flag when they offer such 56 00:04:11.319 --> 00:04:15.240 light senses to people who commit murders, which makes you think the evidence against 57 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:17.279 them must not be that strong. So they really just are hoping that it'll 58 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:20.279 take a plea deal and we can count this as a win and we can 59 00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:23.839 just brush it under the rug and never have to refer to it again. 60 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:28.399 It's sort of like with the West Memphis three, Right, It's like, 61 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:32.959 oh, so you're just gonna let three quote child murderers out. It's like, 62 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:38.480 you know that you don't have enough evidence to hold them and eventually they're 63 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:41.199 going to have to be let go and then they're going to be able to 64 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:44.079 sue the States. So the way that they went about it, they protected 65 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:46.279 themselves so that they couldn't be suedents so that they wouldn't have to pay out 66 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:50.639 the money that they likely should have. And in this case, you're offering 67 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:57.800 six years a piece for a cold blood and murder that was premeditated. I'm 68 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:00.439 shocked that they would offer that, Like they knew there was a lot of 69 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:05.040 holes in the case, or there was a lot of questions surrounding certain methods 70 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:11.680 of investigators, Bundy or I don't know what the district attorney was thinking, 71 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:15.279 but they probably looked at everything that was available and went, well, you 72 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:17.079 know, maybe we could convince a jury, maybe not, but it might 73 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:21.639 be smart to plead this out exactly because the only real evidence they had was 74 00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:26.639 Jane Biever's testimony, and we know she had credibility issues. He had the 75 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:31.199 eyewitness accounts from Cora Fisher and Banzola Williams. But we know that sometimes eyewitnesses 76 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:35.360 are not reliable. But there was no actual physical evidence placing Perry at the 77 00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:39.800 murder scene, and I guess all else he had was his alleged confession, 78 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:43.120 which there was no recording of, there was no notes of. So I 79 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:46.759 can definitely see the district attorney thinking, well, it's kind of a crapshoot 80 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:48.639 if we're going to get a guilty verdict, so let's offer him a plead 81 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:51.040 deal and hope he takes it and then we don't have to take this to 82 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:56.160 trial. Yeah, that just sounds like an incredibly light sentence. The fact 83 00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:00.040 that, like you said, it's always suspicious when they're going to offer a 84 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:04.920 very light sentence for murder one. This is not manslaughter, So yeah, 85 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:10.040 I think they're showing their hand there. And another big issue is that a 86 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:14.439 lot of the evidence, the physical evidence which was available, had been lost 87 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:17.920 in the past fifteen years since the murder took place. We already talked about 88 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:23.160 how the glasses had gone missing and how this could have been used to exonerate 89 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:27.160 Perry because he had twenty twenty vision. He didn't have to wear glasses, 90 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:30.120 so there's no reason for them for him to have worn them to the murder 91 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:34.480 scene. So I think like the prosecution tried pushing away from them, saying 92 00:06:34.519 --> 00:06:39.040 that well, maybe the glasses were left there at a previous time by someone 93 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:42.399 else who entered the church and they did not actually belong to the killer. 94 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:46.600 And there was another piece of evidence was the phone box that the killer had 95 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:48.680 used to disconnect the phone lines before they went in. They thought, well, 96 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:53.000 maybe there's fingerprints on there, and if they don't match Dennis, then 97 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:57.600 that will exonerate them. But the phone box also conveniently went missing. They 98 00:06:57.639 --> 00:07:00.439 didn't preserve some evidence, but it's awfully convenient that the stuff that could have 99 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:04.000 proved that Dennis was not the killer just seemed to go missing before the trial 100 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:12.959 happened. That seems incredibly convenient, especially when we look at the methods the 101 00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:15.920 Bundy used. I mean, I don't know what this district attorney was like, 102 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:19.439 or what the other investigators were like, but I think we can definitely 103 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:27.000 call into question maybe they just conveniently lost certain items because it could prove that 104 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:31.240 their suspect that they're taking to trial here for murder didn't actually do this. 105 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:35.240 Well. The good news is that the most important piece of evidence that was 106 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:39.879 preserved were a pair of hairs that had been found in the hinges of the 107 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:44.759 killer's glasses, and they did testing on this and the hares did not actually 108 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:48.040 match Dennis Perry, which should have been good news for the defense, but 109 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:54.600 they made kind of a crucial mistake with their strategy because you'll remember Donnie Berenine, 110 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:58.120 the alternate suspect. They did DNA testing for him as well, and 111 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:01.120 the hares did not match him either, and this was kind of bad news 112 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:05.279 from the defense because they were planning, as part of their strategy, was 113 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:11.079 hoping to point towards Barentine as an alternate suspect. But the police actually offered 114 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:16.519 Barentine immunity from prosecution if he would testify at the trial and deny his involvement 115 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:20.879 in the murders. And the thing was, if the defense brought up the 116 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.040 DNA results at the trial, they would have to acknowledge that they didn't match 117 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:28.680 Barentine, and that would go against their strategy at pointing towards Barentine as an 118 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:33.320 alternate suspect. So I've read the trial transcripts and the only time that the 119 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:39.200 defense mentioned that the hairs did not match Dennis Perry was during the opening statement. 120 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:41.519 But they didn't mention the DNA testing or the hairs for the rest of 121 00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:46.399 the trial because then they would have had to admit in open court that they 122 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:50.279 did not match Donny Bearantine either. What year was the trial again, it 123 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:56.000 was in two thousand, when DNA profiling was not as big a piece of 124 00:08:56.039 --> 00:09:00.960 evidence in criminal investigations as it is now. And Ret Trepe I think they 125 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:03.759 should have put a lot more focus on the DNA and the hairs because they 126 00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:07.720 don't have to prove who the real killer is. They just have to prove 127 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:11.799 to a jury that Dennis Perry did not do this. But because they focus 128 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:16.120 so much on Barentine, they downplayed the U, the DNA testing, and 129 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:20.039 the hairs even though disproved that Dennis did not do it. Yeah, given 130 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:24.120 the same evidence today, it would have been I mean, they wouldn't bring 131 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:28.399 charges, but say that they did. It would have been a completely different 132 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:31.320 strategy by the defense attorney. I'm sure that they would have hammered home that 133 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:35.960 DNA because of the CSI effect. That's what juries want to see. You 134 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:41.759 want to see good circumstantial evidence and good forensic evidence, and I think you've 135 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:45.679 got both to prove that he didn't do this. The fact that they only 136 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:50.440 mentioned it in opening arguments, they didn't mention it during their clothes or anytime 137 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:54.960 throughout the trial is shocking exactly. Like that's what we always say about defense, 138 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:56.919 is that all you have to do is generate reasonable doubt. You don't 139 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:01.759 have to prove to a jury who actually he was the real killer. And 140 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:03.720 they kind of made a mistake there, which is because they wanted to focus 141 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:09.320 so much on Barentine. But the situation with Barentine was similar because he had 142 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:13.360 time cards showing that he was working until three point thirty on the day of 143 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:16.559 the crime, and well, he theoretically could have made it all the way 144 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:20.879 from Florida to Camden County, Georgia within that window of five hours. It 145 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:24.039 still would have been a tight timeline. So they should have put a lot 146 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:26.879 more focus on the fact that, hey, our guy was working that day 147 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:31.039 and he couldn't have driven that time frame within four hours to commit the murders. 148 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:35.799 But unfortunately they just kind of used the wrong strategy and focused on the 149 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:39.440 wrong guy. They got tunnel vision as well. I think so yeah, 150 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:43.240 because they were so certain that Barentine was the killer, even though in retrospect 151 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:48.519 it looks like he was a major red herring. And speaking of which, 152 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:52.480 like I mentioned earlier, that when Joe Gregory looked at Perry as a suss 153 00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:56.440 back back in the nineteen eighties, he talked to his foreman at the construction 154 00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:00.279 company he worked out Atlanta and said that he was working till this time. 155 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:03.039 There's no way he could have made it to Camden County during this timeframe. 156 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:07.320 But unfortunately, by the time the trial happened, this construction company had closed 157 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:13.320 down, so they didn't have any records or time cards which proved that Dennis 158 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:18.279 was working there until five o'clock. They did call up his coworker, Charlie 159 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:22.519 Williamson, to testify on the stand to say that he had driven Perry back 160 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.799 to his home and dropped him off at five point thirty. But unfortunately, 161 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:30.360 by this point, Charlie Williamson was seventy six years old, he had already 162 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:33.080 suffered two heart attacks, and he seemed like a very frail old man. 163 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:37.840 So the prosecution just tried to attack his credibility, saying that well, it's 164 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:39.440 been a while, you're kind of old, now, is it possible you 165 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:43.759 could have misremembered the date and did not actually drive Dennis home on this particular 166 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:48.279 date. And I think this did an effective job at sowing the seeds with 167 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:52.039 the jury where they sought that, well, this whole thing about Dennis being 168 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:54.679 at work is probably mistaken. He probably went to Georgia the day before, 169 00:11:56.039 --> 00:12:00.440 and Charlie Williamson is just mips remembering the date. So unfortunately his alibi I 170 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:05.279 didn't save him from being convicted. It's too bad, because somebody's going to 171 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:09.240 have a lot more accurate of a memory when you question them, you know, 172 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:13.720 within like a few days or weeks of an event, but questioning him 173 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:16.840 fifteen years later, it's pretty easy to poke holes in someone's memory and make 174 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:22.200 them doubt themselves exactly. Yeah, And I think Charlie Williamson was even doubting 175 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:24.039 himself because he was not in the best of health at that point. It 176 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:28.679 had been about eighteen years so, and because they didn't have any like hard 177 00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:35.000 like evidence paper evidence like documentation like time cards to believe that to show that 178 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:37.919 Dennis Perry was at work on this particular date, the jury just thought everyone 179 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:43.039 was misremembering things and that he had gone down to Camden County the day before 180 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:46.679 the murders. Especially when you have people of authority who are the ones who 181 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:52.279 are poking holes, You've got nothing to substantiate that memory, like nothing concrete. 182 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:54.360 So you've got these people telling you, hey, do you think that 183 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:58.200 there's a potential that you could be wrong, that this is the wrong day, 184 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:03.440 that maybe he wasn't there that day. I think the more that people 185 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:07.879 are trying to question your memory, it's really easy to want to please people 186 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:11.039 who are in a position of authority, and that could have been the case 187 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:16.120 here as well, with subconsciously not like it's a conscious decision, oh exactly. 188 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:18.840 Yeah, And I think that was the way with some of the other 189 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:22.320 eyewitnesses like dan Zola Williams and Cora Fisher, who just felt, well, 190 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:24.840 the authorities told me that this is the guy that I saw such and such 191 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:28.679 on this date, so they must be right, so I'm going to just 192 00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:33.879 say what they want me to say. So the jury actually surprisingly only deliberated 193 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:37.320 for three hours before they found Dennis guilty on two counts of felony murder. 194 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:43.200 And this is where things get even more shady. Before sensing could take place, 195 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:48.679 the prosecutors actually got Dennis into a room and said that if you have 196 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:52.639 been found guilty, we will give you the death penalty, but we will 197 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:54.639 make a deal with you. If you agree to waive your right to appeal, 198 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:58.120 we will not give you a death sentence, and we will still give 199 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:03.000 you two consecutive life sent and you will still be eligible for parole after you 200 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:07.360 serve a minimum of twenty years. And they pretty much just gave him this 201 00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:11.120 offer like into his face, Like they pretty much didn't give him any time 202 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:15.679 to think about it or consult with his attorneys or consult with his family. 203 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:18.639 And Dennis would later say that I was terrified I was going to be executed. 204 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:22.600 Like he didn't really understand the whole appeal process that even if you're sent 205 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:26.399 to death row, it could be several years before you're actually executed. So 206 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:31.279 he was just so terrified that he agreed to the deal that he would accept 207 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:37.360 these two consecutive life sentences as long as he waived his right to ever file 208 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:41.360 any appeals for his conviction. And I cannot think of another case like this 209 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:46.679 where like they course like a defendant into giving up the right to appeal in 210 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:50.000 exchange for not receiving the death penalty. So this was another warning sign that 211 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:54.559 they were terrified that their case against him was not that strong and that if 212 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:58.000 he tried to appeal his conviction it would get overturned. So they found a 213 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:01.720 loophole around it. He's so unfortunate too, because they obviously are trying to 214 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:05.799 just give him this offer to scare him so that he takes it, so 215 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:11.240 that it covers their butt, because clearly they've got a reason to be worried, 216 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:13.919 and I think that they must be a little bit scared here, hence 217 00:15:13.960 --> 00:15:20.360 the reason why they offered that sweetheart deal of twelve years for both murders in 218 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:24.360 the beginning. So now they're again going, Okay, well we've got this 219 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:28.960 conviction, but let's just make sure this never sees an appeals court because this 220 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:33.240 could embarrass us all exactly. And I know this started getting media coverage in 221 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:35.799 the years following his conviction where they would interview Perry in prison and he says, 222 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:39.639 yeah, I totally regrets like taking this deal because now I can't appeal 223 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:43.919 my conviction except under extreme circumstances. But at that time, I was just 224 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.919 terrified that I was going to be executed, and I didn't get enough time 225 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:50.879 to think about it. So he was just kind of in a knowing situation 226 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:54.559 where he could shout to the rooftops that I'm innocent, that a lot of 227 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:58.159 misconduct happened in my case, But because he had waived his right to appeal, 228 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:03.639 he was kind of helpless to do anything until the Georgia Innocent Project got 229 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:07.120 involved, and this case wound up being featured on Undisclosed in twenty eighteen. 230 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:12.600 So for the Undisclosed podcast, I know that Susan Simpson started working with the 231 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:18.080 Georgia Innocent Project and did like a new deep dive investigation. They were just 232 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:21.919 trying to find any other loopholes which would give him the right to appeal his 233 00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:26.600 conviction in spite of that deal, and they discovered that the day after Dennis's 234 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:30.919 arrest, Jane Beaver had asked for a twelve thousand dollars reward for her information 235 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:36.799 leading to his being captured, and the authorities actually paid it out to her, 236 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:41.200 But because this information about the reward was not shared with the jury at 237 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:45.720 Perry's trial, they filed a new appeal saying that his constitutional rights had been 238 00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:51.720 violated. By twenty eighteen, Jane Biab was already deceased, so she couldn't 239 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:55.919 really answer these allegations. But that is a pretty big deal where it's like, 240 00:16:56.080 --> 00:17:00.080 not only did this woman like do her own independent investigation and get and 241 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:03.079 Perry thrown behind bars because she just didn't like him, she seemed to have 242 00:17:03.079 --> 00:17:07.920 a personal grudge against him, but she also received a twelve thousand dollars reward 243 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:11.200 for it. And the defense attorneys argued if the jury had known this, 244 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:14.960 they might not have put as much credibility into her testimony. So for this 245 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:18.400 reason, his conviction should be overturned and he should receive a new trial. 246 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:23.319 And I also feel like the jury should have heard from Caroline as well. 247 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:27.279 Right, Carolyne did testify at the trial, but they didn't put much credence 248 00:17:27.319 --> 00:17:32.920 into what she said. It's really too bad because the mother was the one 249 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:37.599 that had this like vendetta against him. And when you've got the daughter who's 250 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:41.440 saying, oh, no, this isn't actually accurate or true, then you've 251 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:45.640 got to question a whole lot of other things with regards to the investigation. 252 00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:52.000 Because what prompted it would have been her vendetta, right, so she's not 253 00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:56.680 a very credible witness, and the fact that she got a twelve thousand dollars 254 00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:02.400 reward, the jury very much should have been aware that fact exactly. But 255 00:18:02.680 --> 00:18:04.920 there was still some argument, though, is this information good enough to overturn 256 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:08.720 his conviction after he waived his right to appeal. So they knew that they 257 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:11.880 were going to have to find some much stronger evidence in order to do this, 258 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:18.000 and thankfully there was a reporter for the Atlanta Journal Constitution named Joshua Sharp 259 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:22.519 who did his own deep, deep dive investigation and discovered some shocking new information 260 00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:27.400 that he shared in an extensive article which was titled The Imperfect Alibi, and 261 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:33.160 I'm going to explain why it has that title momentarily. So he found out 262 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:36.519 about a guy named Eric Sparr, who was fifty six years old at this 263 00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:41.400 point, who had been investigated as a potential suspect early on in the investigation. 264 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:45.039 He had originally grown up in Brunswick, Georgia, where he lived, 265 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:48.640 but he had spent some time in the Waverly area, and he was a 266 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:52.440 really bad guy who had a history of abuse against his ex wives and He 267 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:56.279 first popped up unto the radar in nineteen eighty six when his ex wife Emily 268 00:18:56.759 --> 00:19:02.400 said that he constantly harassed and threatened me, he abused me, and that 269 00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:04.839 there was one time where he was so angry that he flat out said to 270 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:07.680 me that I killed two people in a church, and I will do the 271 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.680 same thing to you if you don't behave and do what I say. And 272 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:15.160 he actually used like the N word to say, I'm the guy who killed 273 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:19.599 those two N words in that church. And of course she found she started 274 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:22.200 looking back and found out that on the day of the murder, when the 275 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:27.039 Swains were killed, spar had left their house wearing dark clothing, but when 276 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:32.119 he came back the next morning, he was wearing a white T shirt which 277 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:36.839 did not match the which was different than what he was wearing. And he 278 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:41.480 also apparently liked to wore scuff snake skin boots like the ones worn by the 279 00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:47.039 killer. And the strongest piece of evidence is that Eric apparently had his own 280 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:51.920 pair of beat up glasses that he had constructed using from different pairs of other 281 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:56.240 glasses, which matched the description of the glasses found at the crime scene, 282 00:19:56.759 --> 00:20:02.480 and he apparently lost these glasses sometime when the murders took place, so and 283 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:06.119 he also worked as a welder, and they suspected that a welding torch had 284 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:10.079 been used to construct these glasses. So on the surface, he seemed like 285 00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:14.119 a very promising suspect, and his name was given to the authorities. But 286 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:18.599 as I'm going to talk about normentarily, he wound up being cleared early on 287 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:25.920 because of what was described as a imperfect alibi. Wow, that is some 288 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:30.279 interesting information, I would say, given the glasses, that's almost bombshell information. 289 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.920 And the fact that he liked to wear scuffed snakeskin boots, yes, 290 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:40.920 and that on that day he went he left the home wearing one thing, 291 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:47.519 came back wearing another, and then also with the whole using the racial slurs 292 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:52.319 and admitting that this is looking like a very promising suspect. This is looking 293 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:56.400 better than Dennis Perry. Well, the reason he got cleared early on, 294 00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:00.200 this is just going to blow your mind. I have never heard anything like 295 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.880 this in a case. But Agent Gregory, the same guy who investigated Dennis 296 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:08.640 Perry, he decided to check into spars whereabouts on the night of the crime. 297 00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:15.160 He worked at a wyin Dixie grocery store in Brunswick, and he obtained 298 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:18.839 the phone. I think when he questioned Sparr he received the phone number for 299 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:21.319 his manager and said that, oh, yeah, I was working on the 300 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:23.480 night of the crime, and if you talk to this manager, he'll tell 301 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:27.359 you that I was there and verify my alibi. And he provided the name 302 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:33.160 of a guy named Donald Mobley and provided his so called phone number. So 303 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:37.400 Agent Gregory phoned this number, talked to someone claiming that they were Donald Mobley 304 00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:40.279 and said, oh yeah, I can verify that spar was working this night, 305 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:44.480 and this is why Gregory cleared him as a suspect. But many years 306 00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:48.319 later, this reporter I mentioned Joshua Sharp, decided to take a closer look 307 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:52.799 at this alibi and found out that when he called this number, he looked 308 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.119 at the original police notes and looked at the number that spar provided and called 309 00:21:56.119 --> 00:22:00.640 it and found out this was not a number for a grocery store. This 310 00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:03.480 was fair a woman who was an acquaintance of Eric Sparrer at that time, 311 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:07.440 and she said, yeah, my mother used to live at this number and 312 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.000 she had a phone in the back of the shed. But I don't know 313 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:15.359 why this number would be in the police files, so they finally, Joshua 314 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:21.440 Sharp decided to try to track down Donald Mobley, this manager that Agent Gregory 315 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:25.359 had supposedly talked to, but then found out that the name of the actual 316 00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:29.880 manager at the time was David Mobley. This was not even the correct name. 317 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.559 So he finally talked to David Mobley and he said, no, my 318 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:36.920 name is not Donald. I don't know anyone named Donald. There was no 319 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:41.559 Donald Mobley working at the wind Dixie grocery store in Brunswick back in nineteen eighty 320 00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:47.079 six. And I have no recollection of ever talking to the police and verifying 321 00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:49.880 an alibi for Eric Sparr. I have no idea what you're talking about. 322 00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:55.920 So in retrospect, it appears that Eric Sparr provided a fake number, a 323 00:22:55.960 --> 00:23:00.440 fake name, and that when Agent Gregory phoned it, either SPA or someone 324 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:04.000 else impersonated his own manager, gave him a fake alibi, and the police 325 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:08.920 believed it, and that's why he was cleared as a suspect. Oh wow, 326 00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:15.079 that is pretty shocking that, I mean, okay, so did Bundy 327 00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:22.000 have already in his head that it was Dennis Perry when he did this investigation? 328 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:26.440 Because it feels like this is just lazy police work. You're not meeting 329 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:32.160 with anybody in person, you're not confirming that that phone number is actually for 330 00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:36.160 the wind Dixie or for any employee of the wind Dixie, and you're not 331 00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:41.200 even confirming anything with the manager. Like none of this makes sense and far 332 00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:47.279 seems to be such a great suspect as compared to Dennis Perry. The only 333 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:52.079 thing I guess is that you don't have Jane Beaver breathing down your neck saying 334 00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:56.480 that it had to have been Perry. But I'm just so confounded by this 335 00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:00.640 information. Just to clarify, this wasn't a Bundy, this was Joe Gregory, 336 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:03.759 the original investigator. Oh okay, and this was back in the late 337 00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:07.599 nineteen eighties, So I don't think Bundy ever looked at Eric Sparr at all, 338 00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:11.799 because he'd he'd already been cleared as a suspect. But I have a 339 00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:15.000 feeling that agent Gregory just had the same mentality, like this is what he 340 00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:18.640 did when he cleared Dennis Perry. He called his foreman and talked to him 341 00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:22.759 and said, oh yeah, I can verify that he was working on this 342 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:26.599 particular night and that's why Perry was cleared as well, and it looks like 343 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:30.359 he did the same thing to Eric Sparr. And even though it seems like 344 00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:34.799 spar impersonated his own manager and provided a fake alibi. I actually talked to 345 00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:40.000 Susan Simpson about this. I saw her again at the True Crime Podcast Festival 346 00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:42.559 in Austin a few months ago, and she thinks an alternate possibility is that 347 00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:48.079 agent Gregory was just playing lazy. He never made the phone call to check 348 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:51.200 the alibi. That maybe he just felt spar was not a logical suspect, 349 00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:53.960 so he just wrote down in his notes that he called this Donald Mobley guy. 350 00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:57.200 But it never actually happened, And it was not until like thirty years 351 00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:00.920 later when this journalist decided to you actually tried to number and talk to the 352 00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:04.200 real guy that he found out. No, I never actually provided an alibi 353 00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:08.960 for Eric Sparr. Wow. I mean that wouldn't really surprise me, right 354 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:12.599 if you just got sheer laziness, like I'm not going to double check this, 355 00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:17.920 why bother, I've already got my suspect in mind. But it is 356 00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:22.640 shocking when you're looking at a case that's a death penalty case right, and 357 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:27.079 you'd think that you would dot your eyes and cross your te's here exactly like 358 00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:30.079 it just is. I know, this was like the eighties where you actually 359 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:33.440 had to do more legwork to travel around, Like you couldn't talk to someone 360 00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:37.559 on FaceTime in order to verify that you're actually speaking to that person on the 361 00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:41.519 phone. But it just seems like if you have a guy where he had 362 00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:45.000 allegedly bragged about like killing like a priest inside a church, that you should 363 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:48.119 look at him more thoroughly rather than just making a phone call to his so 364 00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:52.640 called manager and taking their word for it that e n alibi that night. 365 00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:56.160 Yeah, like you're trusting some random person. If we're to believe the phone 366 00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:00.079 call was made whomever answered the phone, you're believing that they are who your 367 00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:04.480 suspect says that they are. They could just be your suspect's brother or friend 368 00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:07.400 or whomever. And you're saying, oh, yeah, so if a person 369 00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:12.160 calls you are this person. It's like on Seinfeld Vandaline, Yeah, exactly, 370 00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:17.559 same type of thing. Yeah, And while we're on the subject, 371 00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:21.680 it would turned out that sometime in the late nineteen nineties, another ex wife 372 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:25.440 of Eric Sparr would come forward and said that he was a guy who loved 373 00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:29.519 to change his voice and impersonate other people on the telephone, which is what 374 00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:32.920 probably happened here. And she told a very similar story. She said he 375 00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:36.039 was an abusive guy, he was a drug user, he was a racist, 376 00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:37.880 and that at one point he got angry with her, held her down 377 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:41.279 on the bed and put a pillow over her face and said that I'm gonna 378 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:45.839 kill you like I killed those people in Camden County. And apparently he specifically 379 00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:49.799 mentioned Harold Swain's name. But of course, by the time this woman came 380 00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:53.519 forward in the late nineteen nineties, they had already focused on Dennis Perry as 381 00:26:53.559 --> 00:26:56.720 a suspect, so her tip was pretty much ignored, and it was on 382 00:26:56.839 --> 00:27:02.400 until Joshua Sharp, the reporter, reinterviewed her in twenty nineteen, when he 383 00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:04.920 began to realize, oh yeah, we've now got two separate ex wives telling 384 00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:10.279 two different stories about how he bragged about killing a black couple in a church. 385 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:15.200 This really sounds like this guy could be the real killer. I mean, 386 00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:18.839 given all the evidence we have, the cobble together glasses, the boots, 387 00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:22.359 the fact that he keeps confessing to this, it sounds like he is 388 00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:26.039 a likely suspect. But do we know what would have been his motivation. 389 00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:30.640 That's unclear because I know that he lived in the area in Waverley at some 390 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:34.640 point, so it sounds like he was familiar with the Swains, but he 391 00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:37.799 was living in Brunswick at that point, So I don't know what it was 392 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:42.160 that would compel him to make this lengthy drive down there on this particular night 393 00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:45.839 in order to kill these two people. It could be a thing where he 394 00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:49.480 was just simply on drugs or something like that, or just had hate in 395 00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:52.599 his heart and just felt, I just want to kill a random black person 396 00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:56.880 tonight. So unless he is charged with this crime, we may never know. 397 00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:59.960 But as far as I can tell, they have never found any real 398 00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:04.000 connection between Harold Swain and Eric Sparr to figure out why he would feel compelled 399 00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:07.119 to kill him. But sometimes racist people just don't need a reason. They 400 00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:11.559 just want to kill the first black person that they see. That is very 401 00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:15.599 true. We could be looking for a motive when it's nothing more than this 402 00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:19.839 person is a racist and they're going to this church and they know that there's 403 00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:23.839 black parishioners, a black preacher and maybe they want to make a mark on 404 00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:27.400 the black community and murdering a man of God would be a good way to 405 00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:32.400 do so. But the most important thing that differentiates him from Dennis Perry is 406 00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:34.960 that spar actually owned a vehicle at that time, so he could have actually 407 00:28:36.039 --> 00:28:38.400 made the drive from another town to do there and then drive back. Yet 408 00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:42.599 you're focusing on the guy who doesn't have any form of transportation. Totally logical, 409 00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:48.039 Oh, definitely logical, makes one hundred percent sense. So in early 410 00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:52.000 twenty twenty, the Georgia Innocence Project, now that they knew Eric Sparr was 411 00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:56.079 a potential suspect, they wanted to do new DNA testing on the hairs that 412 00:28:56.119 --> 00:29:00.200 were found in the killer's glasses. Of course, like spar himself, was 413 00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:03.920 not going to hand over his own DNA, so they decided to collect it 414 00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:10.759 from his mother, Gladys spar and do some mitochondrial DNA testing, and sure 415 00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:15.359 enough, the results wound up being a match. It didn't say conclusively that 416 00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:19.079 the DNA on the hairs belonged to Eric Sparr, but because it was mitochondrial 417 00:29:19.160 --> 00:29:25.119 DNA testing, but the results showed that someone in the spar family was likely 418 00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:29.319 the source of this hairs, so, of course the pretty much. Even 419 00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:34.039 though Perry had waived his right to appeals, these DNA results compelled his attorneys 420 00:29:34.039 --> 00:29:38.599 to file in extraordinary motion for a new trial, arguing that this is strong 421 00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:44.640 enough evidence that you have to overturn his conviction. And if these DNA results 422 00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:48.119 have been available for Eric Sparr back when he went on trial in two thousand 423 00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:52.160 and three, then he probably never would have been convicted. No kidding. 424 00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:57.000 You've got me convinced with the evidence that you put forth so far that clearly 425 00:29:57.119 --> 00:30:03.839 it's not done as Perry and it's is our likely killer here exactly. So. 426 00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:07.000 I know that the district attorney in Camden County at that time was Jackie 427 00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:11.200 Johnson, and she put up a major fight in trying to get this conviction 428 00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:15.880 overturned. And around the same time period she would find herself at the center 429 00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:22.079 of controversy for another reason. You're probably familiar with the Ahmad arbery case, 430 00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:25.519 right, yes, yes, well, as I'm sure you're well aware. 431 00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:29.240 He was a black man who was murdered by two racist guys while he was 432 00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:33.000 jogging, and the whole thing was videotaped. It was a clear cut vigilante 433 00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:37.839 killing. But Jackie Johnson was the district attorney at the time who was very 434 00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:42.160 reluctant to file charges against these two men. And I think it was about 435 00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:47.920 a year or two ago she was actually indicted for withholding evidence and for hindering 436 00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:51.519 an investigation. So she has not gone to trial for this yet, she's 437 00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:53.559 still a free woman. But when you realize the character of her, that 438 00:30:53.640 --> 00:30:57.640 she was trying to cover up this other hate crime taking place in her county, 439 00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:03.319 then it's somehow not surprised that she was reluctant to overturn Dennis Perry's conviction 440 00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:07.720 and sends him free from prison. Yeah, that's not surprising. It's not 441 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:11.920 a good look and it's clearly a criminal offense exactly. But thankfully, in 442 00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:18.640 spite of Johnson's resistance, the evidence was presented in a judge named Steven Scarlett, 443 00:31:18.680 --> 00:31:22.119 and he decided on his own accord to overturn Dennis's conviction and grant him 444 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:26.680 a new trial, saying that if these DNA results have been available when he 445 00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:29.880 went on trial the first time around, the verdict might have been different. 446 00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:33.480 So he's entitled to go on trial again. So in July of twenty twenty, 447 00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:37.000 he was finally released from prison. And I'm sure you're all aware, 448 00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:41.200 July of twenty twenty was a very rough time. We were in the middle 449 00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:42.759 of COVID. There was a lot of chaos going on in the world. 450 00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:48.119 But this was my bright spot for the year, seeing a guy because apparently, 451 00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:52.119 like prisons were a terrible place for COVID back in twenty twenty, because 452 00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:56.640 it was so easy for the virus to spread around. Well, all these 453 00:31:56.640 --> 00:32:00.880 people were incarcerated and cramped together. So not only was is great for Dennis 454 00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:04.640 Perry to finally have his freedom again, but he was finally out of prison 455 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:07.640 this haven for COVID, and so he'd be a lot more safer. So 456 00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:13.119 it was such a satisfying feeling seeing him finally walk out of prison after serving 457 00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:19.079 seventeen years. Wow, that must have been something. Can you imagine you 458 00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:22.480 go in in like nineteen eighty five? Was it? No? When was 459 00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:27.160 his trial two and three? It was nineteen eighty Yeah, nineteen eighty five, 460 00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:30.880 the crime was committed, two thousand and three goes and he's into prison, 461 00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:35.920 And the world was very different in two thousand and three than twenty twenty, 462 00:32:36.279 --> 00:32:39.759 and to be released in the middle of a pandemic when everybody is freaked 463 00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:44.440 out. There's social media, which there wasn't in two thousand and three. 464 00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:50.680 Just the landscape of technology had changed so much. So do we know about 465 00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:53.799 what Dennis Perry has been up to since he was released. He seems to 466 00:32:53.839 --> 00:32:57.720 be doing well. I spoke to Susan Simpson about it, and she said 467 00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:00.359 that now that he's a free man, he's living his bad life. Of 468 00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:04.960 course, when Jackie Johnson was still the DA, she was reluctant to drop 469 00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:07.920 the charges against him. She still seemed to insist that she was going to 470 00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:12.119 take him to trial again, but thankfully she lost the reelection and the newly 471 00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:15.079 appointed Camden County District Attorney, Keith Higgins, pretty much said that, yeah, 472 00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:17.640 we take him to trial again. There's no way we're going to get 473 00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:22.039 a conviction. This is a complete waste of time. So he finally dropped 474 00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:25.920 the charges against him and officially exonerated Dennis, and in April of twenty twenty 475 00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:30.079 two, he was finally awarded one point two million dollars in compensation for his 476 00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:34.720 wrongful conviction. And I hope he is using that money to live his best 477 00:33:34.759 --> 00:33:38.000 life because he got railroaded in a huge way, I hope so, And 478 00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:42.640 like it just doesn't sound like enough, does it. I mean, I 479 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:45.319 guess what do they calculate, like one hundred thousand dollars a year or something 480 00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:51.079 like that. It just doesn't seem like enough for the emotional pain and suffering 481 00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:54.720 that is inflicted upon somebody. Their family is destroyed. There's a cascade of 482 00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:59.839 downstream effects from a conviction for murder like that, for not just the end 483 00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:04.519 of vial, before the totality of their entire family and friend network. And 484 00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:07.400 it's just like, here's one point two million. I feel like, you 485 00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:10.320 know, here's five million would be a better way to say sorry, you 486 00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:14.440 know what I mean exactly, Like I've seen someone's where they award as much 487 00:34:14.440 --> 00:34:16.800 as ten or twenty millions. So even though one point two million is a 488 00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:22.320 good sum, it's nowhere near enough considering like how badly he was railroaded and 489 00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:25.119 the fact that he was like coerced into waving his right to appeal. So 490 00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:29.440 I can't imagine though, how he must feel because back in like the late 491 00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:31.880 two thousands, he was probably thinking I screwed myself. There's no way they 492 00:34:31.880 --> 00:34:36.039 can even overturn my conviction, I'm going to be in prison for the rest 493 00:34:36.039 --> 00:34:38.719 of my life. So like, thank God for the George Innocence Project and 494 00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:44.880 the Undisclosed pod past, and for Joshua Sharp for overturning this new information where 495 00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:47.119 they were finally in the position where they forced the state's hand and they said, 496 00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:50.880 Okay, there's no way we can keep this guy in prison. We 497 00:34:50.920 --> 00:34:54.400 have DNA evidence implicating an entirely new suspect. We have to finally let him 498 00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:59.199 go. Yeah, at that point, it's like, why would you bring 499 00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:02.440 this back to trial unless you've got a personal vendetta or you're a racist. 500 00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:07.400 I wonder what her deal was, Like, what was her motivation? Is 501 00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:12.239 it just that she hated black people? Or was she just a horrible person? 502 00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:15.360 Are you talking about Jackie Johnson? Yeah, I don't know. Like 503 00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:19.280 maybe we'll learn more about her when she goes on trial for obstructing justice in 504 00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:22.559 the in the Ahmad Arbory case. But like you remember the fear of though 505 00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:27.559 that they had this video of this black man being killed by two white men, 506 00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:30.400 like was clearly cold blood and murder, And it was months before they 507 00:35:30.440 --> 00:35:35.280 finally filed charges against these men and they were indicted. I mean, thankfully 508 00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:38.079 they've been convicted and sent to prison. But everyone was asking Jackie Johnson, 509 00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:43.079 you have video evidence, why don't you prosecute these guys? So, I 510 00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:46.639 don't know, maybe she has some racist beliefs deep down. Yikes. It 511 00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:52.159 just doesn't seem like there's any good reason for that, especially given the solid 512 00:35:52.199 --> 00:35:55.000 evidence that they had. Well, speaking of people who are wrongly accused, 513 00:35:55.159 --> 00:36:00.840 there's Donnie bearnine. If you go back and you watch the Unsolved Mystery segment 514 00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:05.280 and they talk about the evidence against him, he seems like a pretty logical 515 00:36:05.320 --> 00:36:08.360 alternate suspect. But then when Dennis went on trial, they did DNA testing 516 00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:14.000 and it showed that the hairs in the DNA in the hairs and the glasses 517 00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:17.760 did not match Barentine either, so he was technically wrongfully accused as well. 518 00:36:17.800 --> 00:36:22.079 He's not particularly a sympathetic individual, like he had to spend time in prison 519 00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:25.920 for firearms violations, but it's kind of crazy to think that he was the 520 00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:30.559 big red herring in this case where everyone thought he was the real killer for 521 00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:32.159 like two decades, but then they did the DNA testing and it's like, 522 00:36:32.199 --> 00:36:36.880 no, you you were just a guy who apparently liked to drunkenly brag about 523 00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:39.360 killing people that you did not actually kill, and for that reason, you 524 00:36:39.400 --> 00:36:45.760 were falsely accused of the murder. I was listening to an FBI profiler talk 525 00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:47.880 on I think they were on the murder sheet or something, and she worked 526 00:36:49.079 --> 00:36:52.519 at Quantico for many, many years, and she said, oftentimes it comes 527 00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:57.000 up where there is the perfect person. They seem to fit that profile, 528 00:36:57.119 --> 00:37:00.679 and everything seems to line up, and you're really or that it's them, 529 00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:04.920 and then somebody else comes on the radar and it proves to be an entirely 530 00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:09.280 different person who just shares a lot of commonalities with that person. And so 531 00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:13.840 I think that we see this in cases all the time, where there's this 532 00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:16.719 person that is clearly just a red herring, but on paper they seem to 533 00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:22.639 be like a perfect suspect and he sounds like a good suspect until we find 534 00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:25.280 out the DNA doesn't match, and then we've got SPA comes on the scene 535 00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:29.800 and it's like, whoa, We've got a DNA match and all this circumstantial 536 00:37:29.800 --> 00:37:32.320 evidence. Yeah, it's kind of crazy, Like it unfolded like a movie 537 00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:36.239 or a work of fiction where a lot of the time you'll have like someone 538 00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:38.119 falsely accused of a crime, and then they'll point at someone else and say, 539 00:37:38.119 --> 00:37:40.519 oh, this looks like the killer. And then they'll have this last 540 00:37:40.599 --> 00:37:45.360 minute twist that shows no such and such as the killer. That's exactly what 541 00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:49.159 happened in this real life case with Dennis Perry Donnie Barentine, and then it 542 00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:52.920 turns out, oh, it was Eric sparr all along. Yeah, this 543 00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:55.039 is really crazy. It does play out like a movie, and maybe they'll 544 00:37:55.039 --> 00:38:00.360 make a movie about this case one day, because it is inspirational when you 545 00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:05.880 hear that somebody gets that justice and that the judges. It is so hard 546 00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:08.599 to overturn a conviction when you got a judge what was the judge's name again, 547 00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:14.320 Judge let me look that up here, Judge Stephen Scarlett. When you've 548 00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:17.400 got Judge Stephen Scarlett, who I think is the unsung hero in this case. 549 00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:22.239 It's often set up in the system so that it is so hard to 550 00:38:22.280 --> 00:38:28.760 get a case overturned that even though it seems so clear that these people haven't 551 00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:32.719 done it or there's a better suspect, the system seems to protect itself rather 552 00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:37.079 than necessarily the rights of the individuals, and we see the judges seem to 553 00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:42.639 have the backs of other judges, and it's an extremely nuanced, complex conversation 554 00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:45.719 that quite frankly, the people on Undisclosed would be far better at having than 555 00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:51.280 me. But I'm just so happy that Dennis Perry got out in any of 556 00:38:51.280 --> 00:38:54.599 these wrongful conviction cases when we see somebody get out, get the compensation that 557 00:38:54.599 --> 00:38:59.239 they deserve and be able to be reunited with their loved ones and live a 558 00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:02.840 normal life, a typical life, a life where they get to look at 559 00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:06.679 the sun, where they get to put their feet on the grass, These 560 00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:09.400 things that should be a basic human right of the innocent that has been that 561 00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:14.719 they've been deprived of for all of these years. Exactly Like I remember when 562 00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:16.920 I started digging into this case in twenty eighteen, I was thinking, well, 563 00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:21.000 this might be useless and stuff, because it's possible Dennis Perry is the 564 00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:23.639 right guy. This is technically a close case and no one will ever hear 565 00:39:23.719 --> 00:39:27.800 of his story. But then I was pleasantly surprised when I found out that 566 00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:30.760 Undisclosed was covering it. And then in the long run their work paid off 567 00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:35.599 and he wound up being released about only two years after they featured him on 568 00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:39.000 the podcast. But I bet you're wondering about Eric Sparr. Well, here's 569 00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:44.119 another surprise twist in this story. As you might recall, when they were 570 00:39:44.119 --> 00:39:47.480 trying to obtain his DNA, they actually consulted his mother, Gladys Spar and 571 00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:52.360 got it in February of twenty twenty, and the results showed that there was 572 00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:57.199 a mitochondrial match to the hair found in the glasses. Well surprised. Only 573 00:39:57.239 --> 00:40:00.079 a few days after Dennis Perry's conviction was over, TI heard and was released 574 00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:05.440 from prison, Gladys spar was found dead in her home. Now, to 575 00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:07.519 be fair, she was seventy nine years old at the time, so it 576 00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:12.760 could have been natural causes. And I don't know if they were ever able 577 00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:15.079 to confirm the exact cause of death, and if they have, they haven't 578 00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:19.760 released it publicly. But now that I've heard about what I've heard about Eric 579 00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:22.639 Sparr, it would not surprise me in the least that he might have been 580 00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:27.840 furious that his mother voluntarily turned over the sample of his DNA, and that 581 00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:31.039 when he found out that the guy who committed his crime was released from prison, 582 00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:36.360 he decided to get revenge on her and kill his own mother. I'm 583 00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:38.159 not saying what that's one hundred percent what happened. It could just be a 584 00:40:38.199 --> 00:40:43.239 coincidence because of her advanced age. But if that's what happened, then Gladys 585 00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:49.199 Spar is just another victim in this whole saga. Ugh, if he killed 586 00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:52.559 his own mother, I mean I wouldn't put it past him based on everything 587 00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:55.519 that we know about him. He sounds like a pretty abhorrent individual. But 588 00:40:57.199 --> 00:41:00.480 ugh, if he did that to her, that is just so harp game 589 00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:05.159 exactly. And you might be wondering why Spar has not been charged with this 590 00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:08.639 crime because it's been over three years since the DNA match. But the problem 591 00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:13.920 is that it's mitolchondrial DNA testing, which only shows that a member of the 592 00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:17.079 Spar family is likely the source of the hairs. But they haven't given more 593 00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:21.599 advanced testing to prove beyond a shadow of bit of a doubt that the hair 594 00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:24.159 belongs to Eric. Why not? I don't know, because as it is 595 00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:28.840 right now, Eric does have a brother. So if they arrested him right 596 00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:32.000 now on the mitolchandrial DNA evidence, technically, as attorneys could say, oh, 597 00:41:32.119 --> 00:41:35.960 it could have been his brother that left the hairs behind or something like 598 00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:38.079 that, that's the killer, and there's still reasonable doubts. So that's what 599 00:41:38.199 --> 00:41:43.719 makes me wonder, why aren't you doing more advanced DNA testing to prove beyond 600 00:41:43.719 --> 00:41:45.920 a shadow of a doubt that the hair belongs to him. But when I 601 00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:50.119 talk to Susan Simpson a few months ago, she thinks that this is such 602 00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:53.719 an embarrassment for Camden County that they don't want to arrest another suspect. They 603 00:41:53.719 --> 00:41:58.159 don't want to admit that they were wrong. So unless there's someone with a 604 00:41:58.159 --> 00:42:01.800 lot of initiative who really wants this to be conclusively solved, Eric Sparr is 605 00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:07.159 going to remain a free man for the foreseeable future. Oh, it sounds 606 00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:09.440 like a slam dung to me. I get that it's embarrassing, but it 607 00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:14.599 wasn't under the tutelage of whomever is at the helm now. It was from 608 00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:20.760 a long time ago, so it's not your mess, it's your predecessor's mess. 609 00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:23.079 And I get that it is embarrassing for the county, but it does 610 00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:27.840 seem like a slam dung, And there is like a hero element in actually 611 00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:31.480 getting the real killer after the person has been wrongfully convicted, and it's like, 612 00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:36.119 look, we're actually sweeping up the mess that we help to create, 613 00:42:36.559 --> 00:42:39.119 exactly Like I mean Dennis Berry, he's already been released, he's been awarded 614 00:42:39.320 --> 00:42:44.639 a million dollars in compensation, So there's really no reason to not admit you're 615 00:42:44.679 --> 00:42:49.000 wrong anymore. I mean, it's decades after the fact. The original investigators 616 00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:52.239 and the prosecutors are either dead or retired. So who has ever taken the 617 00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:55.480 reins now they can take They can take comfort in the fact that this is 618 00:42:55.519 --> 00:42:59.440 not my fault. I was not around when they put the wrong person in 619 00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:01.559 prison, so why can't I just do the right thing and make sure that 620 00:43:01.599 --> 00:43:06.639 the real perpetrator is put in prison for this crime. I do know that 621 00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:10.039 in twenty twenty they exhumed Harold Swain's body because I think they were looking for 622 00:43:10.119 --> 00:43:15.000 additional DNA evidence. But it's been three years and I haven't heard anything, 623 00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:20.280 so I assumed they didn't find anything of evidentiary value. And I guess maybe 624 00:43:20.360 --> 00:43:23.880 their biggest obstacle is that they have to get a warrant to obtain a real 625 00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:30.239 DNA sample from Eric spar I know it happens sometimes in these cases where they'll 626 00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:34.039 shadow a suspect and when they throw away like a paper cup or a personal 627 00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:37.880 item like a cigarette, they'll like take it up and then do DNA testing 628 00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:40.440 and then conclusively match it to the evidence. But who knows, Maybe they're 629 00:43:40.480 --> 00:43:45.119 just paranoid that Eric Sparr will just say, well those glasses. I was 630 00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:47.760 in the church and I lost the glasses, but I did not actually pull 631 00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:52.199 the trigger and kill Harold. This is just a red herring. But like 632 00:43:52.239 --> 00:43:53.679 you said, it just does seem like a slam dunk. I have seen 633 00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:59.159 people convicted on evidence much weaker than this, So it's very frustrating that it's 634 00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:01.840 now been nearly four years and they still have not charged him with this crime. 635 00:44:04.039 --> 00:44:07.159 But the good news, though, is that I remember when they uploaded 636 00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:09.760 this segment to Unsolved Mystery several years ago, they just had a brief text 637 00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:15.599 update which said that this case is solved. A man named Dennis Perry was 638 00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:19.840 charged and convicted of the murders of Harold and thelmas wayIn. So looking at 639 00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:22.119 that, you figured this case was conclusively resolved and there was nothing more to 640 00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:27.119 this story. But to the credit of film Rise, who runs the channel, 641 00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:30.400 where Unsolved Mysteries is available. They have actually inserted a new title card 642 00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:36.519 mentioning that Dennis Perry had his conviction overturned, was exonerated and released from prison, 643 00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:39.400 So the whole world knows the update to this story. But the sad 644 00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:44.639 part is is that this is technically an unsolved mystery again, and Harold and 645 00:44:44.679 --> 00:44:49.159 Thelma will not receive justice until they are finally until someone else, presumably Aeric 646 00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:52.800 spar Is finally charged with his murder. That part is so frustrating. I 647 00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:57.679 really wish that the district attorneys would go, Okay, we've got good circumstantial 648 00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:00.639 evidence here. People aren't getting any younger. Let's go forward with this. 649 00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:05.320 We've likely got a slam dunk. We've already been embarrassed as much as we're 650 00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:08.079 going to be embarrassed. I mean sure, there's going to be maybe certain 651 00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:10.760 things that are brought up that maybe they would like to see the light of 652 00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:15.760 day, but I think they're getting a conviction would trump that because it would 653 00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:19.639 make them look good, like, hey, we've cleaned up this mess. 654 00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:23.719 Look at us. We care about justice, we care about Thelma, and 655 00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:29.920 we care about Harold because they're the victims here. And their families that don't 656 00:45:29.960 --> 00:45:32.559 really have a resolution, And I think that is the really heartbreaking part of 657 00:45:32.599 --> 00:45:37.639 it here, exactly Like I always talk about wrongful conviction cases, how hard 658 00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:42.559 it is for the victims' families because they are given the impression that they finally 659 00:45:42.599 --> 00:45:45.159 receive justice, that the proper person has been put in prison for the crime, 660 00:45:45.559 --> 00:45:49.119 but then decades later you find out, oh, we put the wrong 661 00:45:49.159 --> 00:45:51.960 person in and that the real killer is still out there. So it must 662 00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:54.519 be just like a huge roller coaster ride of emotions. And I feel so 663 00:45:54.599 --> 00:45:59.440 bad for the Swayin family because from all accounts, Harold and Thelma are genuinely 664 00:45:59.559 --> 00:46:04.639 kind, generous and decent people who were were always willing to help anybody, 665 00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:07.400 and it just sounds like that they cross paths with like a complete racist who 666 00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:13.239 wanted to kill a pair of black people for no reason whatsoever except to satisfy 667 00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:15.760 their own hate. And after all these years they have still not received complete 668 00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:20.280 justice. So yeah, I think that about brings an end to this. 669 00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:23.119 I've pretty much gone over the case. Like I said when I covered this 670 00:46:23.159 --> 00:46:27.840 on the podcast back in twenty eighteen, I did not expect all these new 671 00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:30.840 developments to take place, and that Dennis would be released from prison and that 672 00:46:31.119 --> 00:46:34.679 this case would be looked at in a new light. But that's the main 673 00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:37.840 reason I wanted to talk about it on this episode and revisit it, because 674 00:46:37.079 --> 00:46:42.199 there were just so many new developments to discuss, and I'm sure I provided 675 00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:45.440 you with some truly jaw dropping moments which shock the hell out of you. 676 00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:49.880 You really did. There was a bunch of moments throughout this where I was 677 00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:53.360 like, what like, especially with regards to Perry's alibi, them not looking 678 00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:58.400 into it, the DNA hatches, all of these things. It was just 679 00:46:58.519 --> 00:47:00.039 like, how did this even happen? And the fact that he hasn't been 680 00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:05.000 convicted at this point, that he's still a free man, that they haven't 681 00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:09.000 got a warrant to get his DNA based off the bitochandrial is shocking. But 682 00:47:09.199 --> 00:47:13.880 this is a fascinating case and I'm really happy that you shared it with me. 683 00:47:14.360 --> 00:47:15.679 Great. Thank you. It was great to discuss it and hear your 684 00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:19.719 reactions. My only regret is that Ashley was not here, because I think 685 00:47:19.760 --> 00:47:22.679 she would have given off a few audible gasps and gotten really angry, and 686 00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:27.920 a lot of the things we talked about definitely, So she'll be back for 687 00:47:27.960 --> 00:47:30.639 our next series, Yeah, definitely, and we'll definitely have to get her 688 00:47:30.679 --> 00:47:32.960 to listen to this because she'll be shocked at what she hears because she talks 689 00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:37.159 a lot about wrongful convictions. So thanks for discussing this case for me and 690 00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:42.239 we will see you again next week with our friend Ashley back. So until 691 00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:45.559 then, have yourself a good week and thanks for your support. Robin. 692 00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:47.239 Do you want to tell us a little bit about the Trail Went Cold Patreon? 693 00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.000 Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three years now, 694 00:47:52.039 --> 00:47:57.119 and we offer these standard bonus features like early ad free episodes, and I 695 00:47:57.159 --> 00:48:00.639 also send out stickers and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up with 696 00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:05.920 us on Patreon. If you join our five dollars tier tier two, we 697 00:48:05.960 --> 00:48:10.320 also offer monthly bonus episodes in which I talk about cases which are not featured 698 00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:15.159 on the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon, and 699 00:48:15.239 --> 00:48:19.159 if you join our highest tier tier three, the ten dollar tier. One 700 00:48:19.159 --> 00:48:23.400 of the features we offer is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsaved 701 00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:28.840 Mysteries, where you can download an audio file and then boot up the original 702 00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:34.440 Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or YouTube and play it with my audio commentary 703 00:48:34.480 --> 00:48:37.519 playing in the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about the cases 704 00:48:37.559 --> 00:48:42.719 featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very first episode that I did 705 00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:46.000 a commentary track over was the episode featuring this case. So if you want 706 00:48:46.039 --> 00:48:51.119 to download a commentary track in which I make more smart ass remarks about Jewel 707 00:48:51.159 --> 00:48:53.599 Kaylor, then be sure to join Tier three. So I want to let 708 00:48:53.639 --> 00:48:58.119 you know a little bit about the Jeweles and Nashty Patreon. So there's early 709 00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:01.519 ad free episodes of The Path When Chili. We've got our Pathwent Chili mini's, 710 00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:05.519 which are always over an hour, so they're not very mini, but 711 00:49:05.559 --> 00:49:08.119 they're just too short to turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing 712 00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:12.360 those. So we hope you'll check out those patreons. We'll link them in 713 00:49:12.440 --> 00:49:15.599 the show notes. So I want to thank you all for listening, and 714 00:49:15.719 --> 00:49:19.199 any chance you have to share us on social media with a friend or to 715 00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:22.039 rate and review is greatly appreciate it. You can email us at The Pathwentchili 716 00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:25.719 at gmail dot com. You can reach us on Twitter at the Pathwin. 717 00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:30.480 So until next time. Be sure to bundle up, because cold trails and 718 00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:35.800 chili pass call for warm clothing. Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers comedy