Without question, the hardest putt in golf is a straight putt. There's nothing
harder than a straight putt because you're always trying to read something into it one
way or the other. But if you have a green that's got zero to
three percent slopes, all that is pretty cupable that you'll experience on a golf
course. It's okay to have some modernness and some movement in a green for
some longer putts. Bigger putting greens are better, obviously because you have a
little more flexibility with some slopes. But when it comes down to putting,
most people that are working on their game just want to hit putts with a
cup of break inside or outside plus or minus. That's how you're going to
improve. Hi. This is Wes Smith, Lost Angeles, California, and
I love playing the Wilson Course and gripp of Parts. This is Golf Smarter
number nine hundred and twenty two. The architect of Michael Jordan's Ultra Exclusive,
Ultra Private Gold golf Course, Bobby Weed. This is golf Smarter sharing stories,
tips and insights from great golf minds to help you lower your score and
raise your golf IQ. There's your host, Fred Green. Welcome to the
Golf Smarter podcast. Bobby. Thanks Fred, good to be with you this
morning. Good to be with you too. I'm very excited. I like
talking about golf course design. I think that the amateur golfer can learn so
much from hearing what a course architect thinks about when they're designing a course to
help them improve how they approach every time they go out. So I'm really
looking to pick your brain today. Sure, I love talking golf. I
love talking design, construction, maintenance, all things golf. Anybody that's a
friend of golf with a friend of mine, for sure hurt that one before
and I love it. I want to get the I want to start by
getting the elephant out of the way. And that is a project that you've
worked on recently. I'm not sure if it's still in progress or what the
story is, but Grove twenty three, the golf course you're designing for Michael
Jordan. Wow, Yeah, that's in the rearview Mara as far as projects
go, but pretty vivid because it was such a great experience. I think
we started that project in twenty seventeen and worked on it through twenty eighteen and
it opened. We had a grand opening Super Bowl party grand opening in twenty
nineteen, if I recall, and it was a really good project. My
new associate was an intern then, Joey Graziani. That was his first job.
I took him down to I took him over to the Medalist to look
at what we had done there, and he met Tiger Woods. Spent a
little time with Tiger at the Medal and then we went over to the Grove
and I ended up meeting Michael Jordan. And I looked at Joy and I'm
like, Joey, this is not an everyday experience. This is not the
norm. But uh, it was. It was a lot of fun.
And how is it that you got hooked up with Michael Jordan for this?
We had some mutual friends. Michael was a member of the Medalist and I
had I had redone renovated and restored the medalists more closely back to what Pete
had done in nineteen ninety five, and the course had gone through a number
of changes, transformations, et cetera. And so I came in and ultimately
received the assignment. And uh, and that's where I met my MJ and
some of his friends. And when it came time for him to do his
golf course, my name was brought up along with others that he had already
talked to and interviewed, so I was able to get in front of him
and and so he was familiar with some of my golf courses, and of
course I'd met him at the Medalist and uh a few other mutual friends that
were involved in the project encouraged me to to come and speak to him,
and I did, and and we did some routing plans, uh and and
it just all came together and worked out really good, really good. So
were you auditioning, were you competing against other architects on this one that that
you had to win the job? Or was it yours from the start?
I don't know how much of a competition it was, but yes, MJ
had talked to a number of other very prominent architects, and uh so my
my my partner at the time, Chris Monty, and I did some routings
and presented some routings and they were actually uh intriguing and unique and different in
the fact that it was kind of a double helix, so that you could
we had two nines, but we had a crossover from number four to five
and from number thirteen to fourteen a little crossover there, so you could literally
play one through four and then just walk over and play thirteen through eighteen,
or play the back ten through thirteen, cross over and play five through nine,
So in essence, you could play four different nines. And that really
caught everybody's attention. And the site was kind of a square like configuration of
about two hundred and twenty seven acres. It was a former citrus grove that
had grown over and there was cattle out there at this time, and it
was a mess, was a real mess. And because of the cattle,
well, just the property had just sat sat fallow for the decades and they
had tried to start a bit of a tree farm. But the two distinguishing
factories because they we talked about two sites, and so I was able to
interject and offer my opinion on which site, and I chose the site with
two really big agricultural drainage canals on two sides, and I thought that that
could be a potential benefit from a drainage standpoint, obviously, but also from
a feature. And it was a really big drainage ditch, probably fifty feet
wide and twenty feet deep. But the cattle had been up and down at
and it was just it was just silted in, degraded. But it's still
function for agricultural purposes. But I thought in my mind that working with Pete
for as long as I have, that he too would find something intriguing about
these canals. And uh and plus it adds a lot of security on two
sides. So so that's kind of the site that I recommended. And they
they bit on that, and they liked our they liked our routing, and
off we were. Wow. Is assuming this is in Florida? Yes,
South Florida, just north of Palm Beach in Hope Sound. And is this
all Michael Jordan's land? Is this a very private, very exclusive thing that
it's in Michael's backyard? It is? It is? Wow, that's a
lot of land. Well, there was a lot of land up there.
It was a former defunct project that was that was the Hope Sound Polo Club,
So it had a lot of acreage associate with it. And it didn't
it didn't make it. And so this thing was parceled out and and and
MJ subsequently bought the bought that particular parcel, and today there's probably five or
six more golf courses being constructed right around us as we speak today. So
all of a sudden, you know, as as property, so there's really
no available property in Palm Beach County, so a lot of the development has
just moved north towards Stuart. And so you go from Palm Beach to up
to Jupiter, and then from Jupiter up to Hope Sound and then from Hope
Sound on up to Stuart on the east coast of Florida. And while we're
not on the ocean, uh and we're not on the intra Coastal Waterway,
we're in some some some old farm land, former citrus groves and so,
and we're not too far off of the Interstate I ninety five. So we're
in that little corridor in Hope Doam Martin County, and that's where a lot
of growth and a lot of development is migrating north out of the Palm Beach
area. Today, we have another program called Golf Smarter Mulligans where we replay
old episodes that are just no longer on the Internet anymore, but there's still
of interest and of value for you know, amateur golfers to learn things and
recently replayed an interview I did with Jeffrey Brower about his course in Dallas of
the Cowboys Golf Course, an NFL themed golf course. In working with MJ,
did he have any themes that he wanted to cover or there are things
that he wanted thematically on his golf course that represented number twenty three that were
unique. No, but some of that, some of that evolved and and
some of those just happenstance, you know, his instructions. We had a
we had a meeting early on and it was like a little team meeting and
the coach came in and we all were there, all the consultants were there,
and he know he uh, he interjected as the owner and said that,
you know, just build me the best golf course, build me the
best practice facilities. Don't worry about the clubhouse. It'll take care of itself.
And he really liked our plan. And you know, we're just one
of many of many of the team members. As far as consultants go,
you have you know, you have contractors actually doing the work that we oversee.
We have surveyors that were out there, We had engineers that were helping
us with the with the property and the drainage, et cetera. So they're
they're there are and this comes with any This is typical of any golf course
project on a new design and even renovations to some degree. So you put
together a team of consultants. And it was really interesting because we were all
in this uh in this room for a meeting and MJ was kind of holding
court and interjecting, you know how excited he was and he wanted to be
involved. And of course I said, look, you know, you come
out here as often as frequently as you would like to. I'd love to
because so you know, seventy percent of what you're spending out here is really
going to be underneath your golf shoes. And I said, I think it
would be great for you to come out and see, and I'll be dogged.
And he came out. He came out as often as he could.
He come out once twice a week and and and ride with us on the
golf course. And you had to be on your toes. And from the
very beginning when it was just nothing but scrub and we just had TVC pipe
sticking up, and I'm like, this is the clubhouse and a bit elevation
twenty three and you know, you know, and here's what we envisioned,
and we had gone over the routing plan. But now to be out in
the field and seeing this vast amount of acreage, it was it was a
little overwhelming, you know, for him to to see the sight in the
condition that was in and to you know, to visualize, you know,
what it might be in in twelve months. But as he came out and
we started going around and we started digging lakes, and we started moving dirt
and started shaping, and a lot of activities were going on. We had
drainage underway, we had irrigation that started after we got a whole shaped in.
But he was able to come out enough and see things like the irrigation
lake and and the pump house and you know, little things that you know
that you'll never see again that were that were so meaningful at an early at
early juncture, so that he was you know, he came out and he
was excited and just I think he really enjoyed the process of being part of
part of the gang out there, and you know, it was you know,
it was gonna be the shiny new toy for him, and uh,
you know, just like when you wake up on Christmas morning as a kid
man, you're just so excited. And that's kind of the way he was
when he came out. He was, you know, full of energy and
and you know, pumping everybody up and meeting and greeting and just you know,
being one of the gang. He loves being on a team. We're
gonna take a time out. Well, I have more questions about this project,
and we'll do that right after this. I have so many more questions
to talk about The Grove twenty three Michael Jordan's golf course. So is this
It's obviously not a public course, but are there memberships available for this golf
course or is it just Michael's backyard And if he invites you out to play,
you get to play. No, there's a membership. There is a
membership. It's imitation only. Imitation only. And Michael is enteredally involved with
the process. And ken Wayne ken Wyan is the gm Director of Golf and
and very much involved in the in the whole process as as is MJ.
And so yeah, I can't tell you how many members we have because I
really don't know Okay, you know you had to sign an NDA to talk
about it. No, not at but I truly don't know. We're a
few years removed from when we opened in nineteen and but it's been wildly successful.
We've now built some cottages, the membership, the membership has grown,
uh the initiation has has escalated somewhat as well. So uh, no,
it's I think it's been everything, you know, for somebody that can have
anything and everything he wants and be anywhere he wants to be. I was
down there a year or so ago and a new MJ was playing. I
walked out to Number nine Green, which is adjacent to the clubhouse, and
waited for him to put out, and he had a big he had a
big group that he was playing with, and he came gave me a big
hug, and you know, he just leaned down and said, you know,
I can pretty much be anywhere I want to be in the world right
now. He said that there's no place I'd rather be than right here playing
golf with with what you created. So I mean that that that said that
says it all right there. So I mean, that's that's quite a compty.
We've been good friends I mean I can pick up the phone or call
him or him and uh, you know, as busy as he as he
is, what he what all he has going on? You know, he's
just a great guy. And and just you know, I don't know anybody
that loves the game of golf more than he does. He's very passionate,
and he typically gets involved in something, and he's involved now in fishing.
He loves to fish. Now, all of a sudden, the last few
years he's really got gotten into fishing. He now has a NASCAR race team.
So you know, whatever he does, he jumps in right into the
deep end and and goes at it really really all in. And that's just
his nature. He's just he's just an incredibly competitive individual. And uh and
as a result, he's become extremely successful in the business world. I see,
h you mentioned that the clubhouse. Did you say the elevation is at
twenty three feet plus or mind us? Yeah, above sea levels. That's
pretty cool. Have loved that. What's the square footage of the clubhouse?
How is it? It's not It's not extravagantly big in any way. It
looks it comes across as one story. Obviously, it has a it has
a full basement for all the golf carts and and and and other and other
related services. But it's it's very open. It's a wonderful contemporary, progressive
style clubhouse. The architects down in South Florida did a wonderful job. It's
big locker room, big uh, big seating area, dining area, lounge
area, very comfortable uh and just you know exactly what you would think coming
from m J. Very hip. Got a great vibe to it, and
everybody there just loves to be there. M amazing. And is it just
the golf course or did you also get to prepare a practice facility for him?
We have some world class practice facilities. I have a little I've had
a little association with Butch Harmon over the years doing together, and Butch called
me up after we open, he says, Bobby. I hear the golf
course is great. I heard the practice facilities are the best on the planet.
Like, but you've been around the planet a lot, a lot more
frequently than I have. I said, but that's you know, everybody seems
to really enjoy it. It's some state of the art and it is a
real drawl for a lot of the tour players that live down in that area
really come up and practices. It's just it's like nothing else anybody's ever seen,
and I'd love some details. What makes it unique? Well, I
worked with Darren May. Darren May had a concept called h e B Let's
see eb C Every Ball Counts. He developed this concept using a lot of
the shot Link data that the p A Tour is produced. So today,
as as a tour player, you really know exactly where you stand ranking wise
as to you know your game, how you rank, and you know inside
of one hundred yards you know, and then in almost in twenty five yard
increments beyond that, you know you always know how you rank. And putting
and up and down. The stats that are associated with shot Link is just
mind boggling. How much data is available. You know, how long you
know, the longest drivers and just everything you can imagine. So Darren and
his partners put together this concept that they could that they could take this data
and and build a facility to where we built target greens within with twenty five
yard increments, and we we we separated each green in the quadrants. And
he's got all of this pro he's got this program He's put together that you
can go out there and work. You know, if you're deficient in your
in your shots from less than one hundred yards seventy five yards fifty yards,
you can really go out there and focus and tune in on that. We
built a We built an engineered green, which is basically a rectangle, and
we have four quadrants in this rectangle and one quadrant we have the green sloping
from zero to one percent. We have one to two percent, two to
three percent, and three to four percent in a quadrant. So you know,
just little it's an engineered green that you haven't seen many like that.
We have little ramps and runways to hit bump and run shots. We have
situational greens with bunkers that really test test the skill level. And what I
really like about it is, yes, it's set up to assist the best
golfers in the world as on the PGA Tour, but also from a college
standpoint, from even from an A j G A standpoint. For these juniors
and even for the members, they can go out there and get feedback.
I mean a member is going out there trying to hit the green right a
j G A and college or they're trying to get into these quadrants and certainly
the tour pros are focused on that. So it's designed and set up to
where everybody can and get feedback and results on what they're doing. And uh,
we have we have some fairways set up for for the for the driving
lanes, we have some criss cross X shaped driving lanes that we can We
have fairways that are set up for us open with type fairways and wider fairways
as well. So all of this is just providing feedback to to the player.
And of course the we have t's on both ends, so all of
the e b C and all of the practical facilities and in the in the
buildings and all the instruction that goes on is on one end of the range
is on the south end and on the north end is really for members only
in their gas and we have some similar practice facilities on both ends. So
uh so it's a rather large acreage of practice area, and we can we
can seed greens for bent grass, overseed for bent grass for practicing uh and
also for bermuda grass. So we have a we have a number we have
a number of ways that players can come down and get ready for events whether
they're in the winter or in the summer as well. So it just goes
on and on and on forcts of facilities. But a number a number of
archete have called and said, hey, can can we go look at your
practice facilities because you know, we have our we have potential clients that say
we want something like that. So that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool.
Yeah, yeah, I'm going to ask you more about that. I want
to take another break first, and then uh, we'll continue this conversation.
Sure, we're right back with Bobby Weed. I'm curious, Bobby, if
there are elements that you've designed into Grove twenty three or at the world class
practice facility that you've been able to incorporate to other projects since you've done that.
Well, yeah, we're just finishing a project in New Orleans at the
at the old New Orleans Country Club and we've taken a few of those elements.
You know, people like to practice a lot. Yeah, almost,
it's almost because therapeutic for people to practice to hit balls, because you know,
they all kind of understand now what Gary Player said many many decades ago
about you know, the more a practice, so luckier I get I always
love that. I always love that comment, and it's so true. You
get out of it what you put into it. But at New Orleans,
we have a very limited area. We don't even have a full really full
regulation range. But we were able to make a little more additional space available.
We have a short game, a little three green short game area that
I tell people, you know, if you were to go down there two
and three times a week and practice around a short game, and we have
three greens that you can hit from, you can hit up the sixty yard
shots. That's where that's where you're making making up the shots. And that's
where, with the right kind of practice, in my opinion, that's where
shots will just drop from your hand. That's how you drop your handicap around,
you know, getting it up and down around greens, practicing over over
the top of bunkers, you know, being able to hit the little bump
and run shots, a little texas weg shots, a little flip shots,
all of those little shots that you need and and and the more you practice
and get comfortable with that, I just think your I think your handicap is
just going to you know, continue to go down. So we've got a
really nice short game area that we built there with three greens with room around
to hit sixty seventy five yard shots. We have a little we have a
little wedge park area with we built these really small I would call them pancake
greens, really small pancake greens. And my good friend Archie Manning just loves
to come out there in the afternoons and just hit balls and practice and and
you know, again, I just think it's just therapeutic in so many ways.
And I'll see him out there at the wedge Park, you know,
just hitting these little fifty yard shots to these little pancake greens. And so
you know, I've incorporated some of what Darren May and I built at the
Grove, and I try to take that to some of my new golf courses
or when I'm renovating facilities, because I understand I understand more about practicing today
than ever before. Because when I went to the Medalists and we redid some
of their practice facilities, they've got maybe twenty twenty five tour pros that are
members there. And what I noticed is where you have humps and bumps and
slopes surrounding a practice facility, that's the best grass on the area because the
players aren't going to practice on those kind of slopes. They're they're working on
two things. They're working on repetition and they're working on their confidence. And
that's that's how they practice. And they don't, I mean, they don't
really want to go practice on big slopes uphill uphill downhill side slopes and everything
else. They want to practice on something fairly level because they're working on their
stroke, they're working on their confidence, and they're working on their the repetition.
Uh and uh and and I learned I learned a lot by watching these
guys practice and play. I always have and uh so and when you build
a practice green, everybody wants to build a practice green with all these all
these crazy contours in them. But you know you're not getting much out of
it when you're when you're having a hip putts with two foot break, three
foot break, you know you're working on your stroke. You want you want
you want to play it a little bit out outside the hole. And we
all know what the hardest putt and golf is, without question, the hardest
putt in golf is a straight putt. There's nothing harder there's nothing harder than
a straight putt because you're always trying to read something into it one way or
the other. But if you have a green that's got just you know,
zero to three percent slopes, all that is pretty cupable that you'll experience on
a golf course. It's okay to have some modernness and some movement and a
green for some longer putts. Bigger putting greens are better, excuse me,
obviously, because you get a little more you have a little more flexibility with
some slopes. But when it comes down to putting, most people that are
working on their game, they just want to hit putts with you know,
a cup of break inside or outside, you know, plus reminus. That's
how you're going to improve, I think more than anything out, So I
pick up on a lot of that and try to incorporate aspects of that into
my design. I don't build a lot of deep bunkers around practice facilities because
when you're in a bunker, you actually part part of practicing out of a
bunker is seeing what kind of action the ball has when it hits. When
it comes out of the bunker and it hits, how much spind does it
have on it is it releasing, So you really you really don't want to
be hitting out of a deep bunker that's blind, so you don't and you
don't see it. Yeah, you're going to experience that on on the golf
course from occasions, and and and and we can have something like that,
but for the majority, we want to have bunkers that you can see what
the ball is doing when you hit, for example. So just a lot
of little mine or miscellaneous things like that that I think add up to to
help golfers. You know, we all have big grass cheese. I've never
built a driving range tea too big. I've never built too big. Uh
and more and more, more and more raine teas now have mats on them,
you know, so for some inclement weather or if you have an outing,
maybe you put those folks on the on the match so you don't destroy
all of the turf. But and the mats are getting better and better.
And what I'm yeah, and what I'm finding on grass driving ranges is it's
a lot of sand, so it's not really hitting it like you're hitting it
out on the course. Well that and that's even more reason to have a
bigger tea. So that you have time for the turf to recoup so that
you are hitting on something other than you know, a sanded area, because
that sand can fly up in your face as well. And the matchs have
become much better. I mean there were there was a time when nobody wanted
to hit off those mats because they just shot a shock wave up your up
your wrist and up your arms. And but they're much better today, I'll
give them that. And while it's not the same, there's you know,
there's still there's still good feedback from from hitting balls off a match, but
ideally you want to be on you know, good clothes, cut turf,
tight of the turf, the better. Yeah. I've noticed for myself that
when I'm hitting off of a good matt before a round in my warm up,
that I'll play with a lot more confidence because hitting off of sandy grass
on a on a driving range tends to be inconsistent on what the ball does
and what you do, and so it makes it harder to walk up to
the first team with a lot of confidence. And you talk about, you
know, practice being so important. One of my favorite stories about someone who
was an okay golfer, not great, but he was formerly a professional baseball
player. He played in the major leagues. And I got a chance to
play with him once and he had just finished six months of recovery from shoulder
surgery. But for the last three months he was able to chip and putt.
That's all he was allowed to do. And this was his first round
back after practicing for three months on his short game, and it was the
first time he'd ever broken eighty. And he's saying, Yeah, it's all
that short game practice. Man, It's like, help you so much.
Yeah, break it down and look at the percentage of how many shots you
hit within one hundred yards of the grain, and that tells you where you
really should be practicing. Yeah. Absolutely, So last question about Grove twenty
three, and I'm sorry to drag that out. If it's an old project,
clearly you finished it just in time before COVID hit. It sounds like,
are there any elements in that golf course that you really really like that
you thought, oh this is cool, I've not done this before, or
I like the way I incorporated this into this golf course. Well we we
we have moved, We have continuously moved the bunkers farther out over the years.
There was a cartoon back in the twenties over in the British Isles where
I don't know who did the cartoon. I think it was in a Banar
Darwin book that some cartoonists have put wheels into the bunkers. So they're talking
about this in the twenties. The other thing they're talking about in the twenties
was the advent of the steel chef taking over the hickory chef always going to
change the game, and then the golf ball going to the Haskell ball and
to the more modern ball. So, I mean, the the topics that
we talk about today are no different than generations passed so so, but but
the bunkers, the bunkers have changed dramatically. We have what we call angle
urns landing areas, and when Donald Ross was building golf courses, his angle
turn were probably six hundred feet six fifty seven hundred feet. And when I
became when I started working with Pete Die, it seemed like the industry center
was, you know, the landing area was seven hundred and fifty feet two
hundred and fifty yards, and that's kind of where you start positioning your bunkers.
Pete Pete die my mentor was probably the first to go to eight hundred
feet, probably the first to go to eight hundred and fifty, and was
the first to go to nine hundred feet as far as positioning bunkers, and
then I think at the ocean course at Kilwa he went on out beyond that.
So it's almost like we need wheels on our bunkers so we can move
them on out. But when I was at the grove, we were actually
putting bunkers at three twenty five and three fifty. I never want to take
the driver out of their hand, out of a player's hand. I surely
don't want to take the driver out of a tour player's hand. I want
them to have that option. And I really like it when they put their
hand on a couple of clubs, because now you're bringing the mental aspect of
the game back into play, beyond just the physical ability. So by by
giving the shorter heaters a more wider landing area, and as you go on
out past three hundred yards, tightening tightening it up a little bit. Okay,
so you so you you hit it longer than I do. Fred,
Okay, let's just say you hit it longer than I do. So I'm
going to tighten that landing area for you a little bit more as you get
farther out, whereas a shorter hitterers, I'm going to give them a little
more room they can potentially, you know, hit a longer club and maybe
keep up and catch up around the green. So and I think strategy is
changing in design. You know, everybody's trying to compensate for a distance.
I don't want to be the one that I don't want to be the one
that builds the longest golf course. I like to still build short par threes
and really long par threes. I just like the diversity, and I don't
mind. I don't mind having a couple of short par fours that are even
potentially drivable. We have one that everybody talks about up at the Travelers event
in Hartford at River Highlands number fifteen. It's a drivable hole, and uh,
you know, we see people that can make two, we see people
that can make six on it. So it comes out a good time in
the round. But building short, drivable par fours is not as easy as
it seems. There's a lot of strategy that goes into it. But strategy
in general is important and more important today because we're trying to combat the distances
that people are hitting the balls today. And I think as an architect,
it's an incredibly exciting time because I think we can be part of the part
of the process, and I think we can be part of the solution going
forward, and we're having to change our strategic design thoughts and in building golf
courses for a much wider range of golfers today. Golfers, as a beginner
you started, you can't start any lower than the basement, right, That's
that's where a beginner starts. But man, the PGA tour players and the
world class players, that ceiling just keeps getting higher and higher and high.
So there there in lies a challenge today and as a result, when when
we when we sign up on to do a new project, one of the
first questions is you know who's going to be playing the golf course. Who
are we building the golf course for? Are we building this golf course to
host a tour event? Because Pete Died built a lot of golf courses where
the clients Landmark Land, Ernie Bossler and Joe Walcer built I think Pete built
maybe twenty three golf courses for Landmark Land and a lot of them hosted a
lot of PGA Tour events, including Kiowah. And it was it was before
Peach, before Pete put a shovel in the ground, he was told that
that golf course that had not been built was going to be hosting a Ryder
Cup in nineteen ninety one, And so that's pressure. But I think it's
important to understand who we're building a golf course for. But absolutely, at
the end of the day, first and foremost, we need to be building
more fun, interesting golf course with more options. Options create interest. And
I'm a big fan of wider corridors, wide, wider pieces of property,
wider golf holes versus tree line, hole after hole after hole, tight tight,
tight, tight, And because not everybody can hit it like Robin Hood,
hole after hole after hole. Now some tightness here and there creates diversity
and that's good as well. So I think it's I think it's a mix.
Great golf courses have a tendency to you can you know when to step
on the gas and you know where there's a stretch of holes that are gettable,
and then there're always going to be holes where you feel pretty good walking
off with a par or a bogey net par from a handicap standpoint. So
you know, it's I think it's extremely important to understand our client and who
we're building the golf course for, which I think is an important question.
It is for me when we start talking about, you know, the type
of membership, the type of club, who who you know? I like
to also like to know on renovation work, uh, and I can get
this information typically you know, where's everybody playing from, what tees, what
teas are are people playing from? What percentage are playing the whites, the
blues, the championship tees, and the forward t's. It's good to know
that information because it's could feedback as an architect for us to understand how how
to set the golf course up and how to build for you know, for
the client, for the members, and for the resort guests, for the
you know, just as much information as we can glean from from the owners
that we're working for. Wow, we're going to take one more break here,
maybe one more is because we're getting so much out of you and I
just love spending this time. So we're going to take a break. We'll
be back right after this. This week on Golf Smarter Mulligan's is the return
of Doctor Joe parent as we celebrate ten years of his incredibly popular book Zen
Golf, Mastering the Mental Game. But as our conversations usually go with Doctor
Joe, it's not completely serious. You know. Most people say I'll take
that one. Now, that's an interesting expression. Don't you have to take
that one? It's golf, you know. They say I'll take it.
I say, yeah, yeah, you have to take it. That was
your shot. No, no, you know what, I'm going to go
out and play this afternoon, and I swear the first guy to say I'll
take that go no, no, no, sorry, that one doesn't count.
That doesn't count. Yeah you have to take no, yes, I'll
take it. No you want to say, yes, that's the way I
hit it. When I do a good routine and trust my swing, you
say something that reinforces your preparation. So if you keep reinforcing the preparation,
preparational, keep being better. If you have a picture of the target and
connection to the target and the shot you want to hit, that you've done
your breathing and gotten settled and if you reinforce them in the post shark routine,
then they'll keep getting better. If you just say, yeah, that's
how I always hit it, that's a great confidence builder. Originally published in
twenty twelve is Golf Smarter number three hundred and thirty one. It's no longer
available on any podcast platform, So now it's episode two hundred and thirty eight
of Golf Smarter Mulligans with Doctor Joe Parent, author of Zen Golf, Zen
Putting Golf, The Art of the Mental Game, How to Make Every Putt,
and his latest Zen Tennis. So if Golf Smarter is one of your
favorite golf podcasts, then please don't miss the chance to get two episodes each
week with Golf Smarter and Golf Smarter Mulligans. They're both available for free from
wherever you're listening right now. Now. This is fun. I could do
this every week. I can do this every month. Okay. I'm actually
doing at the State of Florida more golf courses than anybody else, and I
think Palm Beach County has like one hundred and seventy five golf courses in the
county. But we have a we have chapters for Superintendent chapters from all throughout
the state. We have like I don't know, seven or eight chapters,
and we have a magazine called The Florida Green that goes to all the superintendents
and goes to board members, committee members, presidents, except you know,
club anybody, anybody golf. So I started writing some articles, a feature
article on a quarterly basis or however many times they come out with the magazine.
And I've actually kind of enjoyed writing some of these articles. I write
them, I write, you know, towards the superintendent because that's my largest
audience. But I think that the editors are trying to expand the base of
who who receives and gets and reads this, uh, this publication, and
so I'm trying to put a little more information in there that lends itself to
board members, committee members, things like that, beyond just golf course superintendents.
Because we have we have I'm blessed to have been exposed to design,
construction, maintenance, and operations, uh, And I think that helps me
having that diversity. I think it really helps me as a as a as
a designer and in every aspect because I tell people all the time that design
complements maintenance and maintenance complements designed. Imagine Augusta National being maintained like the worst
Muni you've ever played. Yeah right, yeah, completely different. Then again,
there's a lot of golf courses that aren't maintained to a very high level,
are maintained to a very high level that don't have that architectural integrity.
So there's a real balance between maintenance and design. It's so interesting that you
bring that up because one of the questions that I wanted to discuss with you
was I read an article that it was seven things that the maintenance crew wants
amateur golfers to understand about how to keep your golf course in good shape.
And I'm curious. I was going to ask you name some things that a
golf course architect wants the amateur golfer, the recreational golfer to understand about the
golf course, you know, in their design. And by the way,
as you write these articles, love to have you come on and talk about
these articles. If you want to do that, that would be a blast.
But what are some of the things that that as a golf course architect
that you put in your design? Going God, I really hope that the
amateur golfer understands what I just did here. Well, I would say probably
one of the more important items is speed of play. It seems to be
speed of play is is is dragging the game down a little bit. And
the fact that you know, we need to we need to play faster,
we need to play ready golf. So as a as an architect and designing
golf courses, cart paths are very important as well. Minor deal, but
you know, a lot of golf courses require cart paths. What I would
love to build every golf course with no car pass really, but so many
rely on cart pass and golf carts and golf cart revenue. UH. That
falls in with it. But you know, we have two criteria for cart
pass keep them out of sight and keep them out of play to as great
an extent as possible. That's that's really the two criteria that we're always trying
to provide. Uh and also with the intent of helping speed a play.
Bunkers, bunker placement. A number of bunkers. Bunkers are so costly today
until I think there's a little pullback on size of bunkers and bunker maintenance,
and that maintenance costs gets ultimately handed down to somebody, and it's typically the
consumer being the player or the member. So I'm seeing maybe a different style
of bunker, maybe less bunkers going forward, maybe other forms of of heilic
and and swells and hollows uh in lieu of maybe so many bunkers, because
bunkers can slow down play as well. And positioning of bunkers. You know,
you really, you really want to get these bunkers out there to where
it's uh creating interest and and and and and a challenge and strategy. And
you know, there's a there's an old saying that that that Pete somebody somebody
Uh. We were having a conversation and somebody asked, Pete, die,
but you don't need to put that bunker there, that bunker. You don't
need those bunkers over there, because that's how of play. And Pete looked
at him and said, not so fast. When you leave the tea,
it's all in play. And truer words have never been spoken when you think
about it. So bunkers, bunker placement, bunker size, car paths,
uh, you know, trying to minimize out of bounds. That's the function
of the of the property. You know, we're always we're always trying to
minimize force carries to some degree. You just you're it's inevitable to have a
force carry at some point on the golf hole or through the golf course.
But you know, having force carries hole after hole after hole. Uh.
You know, the majority of the people that play the game play the game
on the ground, and when you really peel back the layers, there's less
than twenty percent of the people that play the game that have a valid handicap.
Wow, which is an interesting stat. So, uh, you know,
while while the players at the highest level, we turn the TV on
and we're watching the PGA Tour week after week, we're watching the LPGA,
we're watching these U s c A events, and we're seeing golf played at
the highest level. You know, they're in they're playing the ball in the
air. You know, they don't really see bunkers in front of the greens
like amateur does. Amateur seeing water in front of a green, seeing bunkers
in front of a green, you know, it just it just takes the
air out of them almost immediately. Whereas the tour pros, you know,
they're in the air, they're flying see their target. You know, you
know their their goal is to you know, to get within close approximate semity
of the pen. They want to know the exact yard is to the pen.
Whereas the amateur is one hundred percent satisfied with hitting the green. That's
all you want to do is hit the green. And if we keep if
we keep putting hazards uh in penal areas in front of greens, in the
form of hazards and and and lakes and creeks and streams, it tends to
slow the game down even more. And if these hazards aren't more defined,
then they'll be poking around in there because you know what their bet is as
much as the golf ball cost. You know, you don't like losing golf
balls. We don't like losing golf balls. It slows down play. So
if you're going to have if you're going to have a penal area, a
penalty area, then you know it's it's better for it to be defined as
you're either in the hazard or you're out of the hazard, either in the
penalty area or you're out of the penalty area. So those are ways that
can that can help and I think we're all about trying to speed up the
game. So those are just a couple of items that come to mind.
As to you. Now, I've noticed that thick rough slows things down because
spend a lot of time looking for your ball if you're not familiar with the
course or or being in that area. Lots of you know, hitting the
trees, hitting the ball out of bounds. And sometimes I wish marshals would
instead of just coming to tell us to pick up our pace and play,
I wish they would stay out near the fairway and when the ball comes down,
stick a little flag. If you see the ball going over to the
road, stick a little flag, stick something so you see where it is.
You're the marshal. That's your job to pick up the pace of play.
Help us out right. If you notice that this group is slow,
keep an eye on them and see how many balls they're hitting, you know,
to the right of the left or in the deep rough and stuff and
spending time looking for it. You mean, you don't have a gallery following
you when you play that can point that out. Oh that's the problem exactly.
Now that's a good point. Let me tell you, dick rough is
a big detriment. That's another great point, Fred. Nobody liked looking for
golf balls, Nobody liked losing golf balls. And it truly, truly,
truly slows down play. You know, if you have a specific event,
you can gear up if you need to strengthen the golf course or challenge it
a little bit more and grow the rope rough up for an upcoming event.
But for normal play, I'm one hundred percent with you. I have a
lot of I have clients that say, you know, keep the rough up.
We like the rough up, and frankly, it's just slowing down play
and losing golf balls. And uh it's it's very challenging and very difficult.
I'd love to have we we have. We have built a number of golf
courses where we have no rough and frankly, it can play just as hard
because nothing is there to stop the ball from running into more trouble. So
you know, there's a there's another side to to that. Uh And,
and it just goes back to who we building the golf course for, who's
playing the golf course on a day to day basis. But certainly I think
less rough is better. Uh And And if you have an upcoming event that
that that you want to showcase and strengthen the the challenge, then you can
grow the rough up a little bit more. Okay, I didn't plan it,
but I'm gonna take one more break because there's still another question I have
about architecture, and then I want to talk about a topic that's close to
your heart, and we'll do that right after this. I'm curious to know
how you approach the difference between designing for or redesigning for a private course Immuni
and a resort course. Is there a difference? Yeah, I think there.
I think there is. Obviously on a resort golf course, you're you're
you're you're probably taking your wife or your family and on a vacation or some
special occasion or some destination, and resort golf courses or tend to be more
can be more memorable, uh if there if they have a setting of being
close to the ocean or or or or some or some feature that uh is
unlike where you might be at your home golf course. So resort golf courses
can can sometimes be a little more dramatic and in their design and their layout
and their features. You have some breathtaking opportunities to to see some vistas uh
throughout the property. So yeah, I think I think resort golf courses probably
do need to have a little element of uh of intrigue. That is,
you know, take advantage of maybe the location of the site and blend in
with the with the resort amenities that you have. Municipal golf courses obviously,
or more about playing higher volume play a number of players. You'll see more
rounds being played typically on some of the municipal golf courses, and frankly,
the better condition they're in, the more they're going to get played, and
a lot of them are designed for speed of play I think would help.
And then you know, with the diverse memberships that we have today, I
mean, we're all trying to build the best golf course, and we're trying
to we're trying to build a golf course that not only photographs well, because
that translates into into people accepting and courses getting recognized a little bit more.
But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter to me if
it's a resort or if it's some municipal golf course, public golf course,
or private golf course. We're trying to build the best golf holes. I
don't want to leave a golf hole until I feel like, you know what
this this is, this is what we really want. Uh and and then
and then the next thing that really coincides with with designing any golf course is
the level of maintenance associated with it. The better the maintenance of a golf
course, the better it's going to be accepted, the more recognition it's going
to get. Design complements maintenance. Maintenance complements design. The more you put
those two together at a high level really elevates your golf course. And it
doesn't really matter where you go. There's a golf course in Houston that that
Tom Doak build is a municipal golf course. It hosts and challenges the best
players with a PGA Tour. I have golf courses that have a membership that
host PGA Tour events. TPC Summerland River Highlands up in Connecticut. The Tournament
Players Club at Sawgrass is a resort and it hosts the Players Championship on an
annual basis, and and and they're all great golf courses and and but they're
only being played for a tournament one week a year. Fuzzy Zeller used to
say, we're on scholarship. We show up once a week, I mean
once a year for one week, and we're on scholarship. We don't pay,
you know, we're just we're just there playing golf. So, uh,
those other fifty one weeks, you know, somebody's playing that golf course
and somebody's paying for that golf course. So you know, the site makes
makes the difference so often, and uh, you know a lot of these
resort golf courses that you go to are on are on some in some prime
locations with some tremendous views and vistas, whether it be on the ocean or
in the mountains, et cetera. But at the end of the day,
our charge is to build as good a golf hole and golf course as we
can and try to find a commensurate level of maintenance as high as it can
be to showcase the golf course. So I mean, uh, you know,
we're all, we're all we're all trying to achieve the same end result
in just building the best golf course we can. Yeah, I guess that
should have been a fourth category. You know, Muni's Country Club resort places
that the tour is coming. I guess that would that would also be included
in that conversation. You and your wife started a nonprofit. I'd love to
talk to you about it. We have a nonprofit foundation called hell h E
a l Helping Enrich Autistic Lives and we're coming up on our twentieth year and
we have an annual we have an annual gala, and we have an annual
golf tournament called Bobby Wee Golf Gig and we serve a five county area in
North Florida. We live in North Florida. We live in Pontimeter Beach,
and we have a profoundly autistic daughter who is now twenty five years old,
and it's been it's been a massive challenge for my wife, Leslie, and
myself and we have three daughters. Hayley is our oldest, Carly and Lanier's
our youngest, and she is nonverbal, profoundly autistic, and we have struggled
mightily. It was very private for so long, but starting a foundation twenty
years ago it allowed us to assist other families that were struggling like we were
struggling. And the amount of gratification that it has returned and given back to
us has really made our family stronger. Uh. It made me, It
made me see a side of my wife that I didn't even know existed.
My daughters are stronger today. We we we protected them mightily during the early
years because we didn't know what autism was. We didn't know, we didn't
know what we had here that we were dealing with. And as much as
we were struggling, we knew that so many other families were struggling. And
I dare say there's probably not a family in the country today that doesn't have
someone within their family or extended family that has been touched by autism. The
numbers are staggering today. So UH, it's it's been a it's been a
great cause for us. We Uh we write grants to schools. We have
seventeen summer camps in the summertime for these for these children and young adults.
UH. To give these family is a break, you know, because it's
you know, it's so expensive uh to to treat and and and at one
time I had six people on my payroll occupational therapist, speech therapists, UH,
doctors and and just help and it was just overwhelming. Simply overwhelming.
The one thing I learned as a parent, there is no end to what
you will do for your child in need. There's no question you will go.
You will go to the earth's end to try to help your child and
your children, uh to get better. And and and that's what that's what
we have, we have done and we continue to be involved in that.
So our foundation is is a way to give back uh to our community.
And UH you can go online, just go on line to h e A
L Helping enrich Autistic Lives and UH you can learn a little bit more about
what we do. And and it's aside you know, well, yeah,
golf course design is my profession, but you know, being involved in what
we what we do with our foundation and with our family is is you know,
just trumps everything. Yeah, and you probably learned a lot about yourself
and like you said, your wife and your children because of the gift that
Lanier gives you. Yes, no question about it. She has changed our
lives and she has changed and helped change so many others. We she can
now type, she can now type on an ipo. We give iPads to
a lot of schools and it gives them a voice, and when our daughter
started typing, it took me two years to really recite what she had said
initially when she started typing. And as a result, we determine that she
is genius, brilliant, smart, and we didn't know that until she started
communicating. It's called facilitative facilitative communication. And she can she types one letter
out of time, one letter turns into one sentence, one sentence turns into
a paragraph, and she has a lot to say, and what she says
is incredibly profound, and you know, it's given her a voice, and
that's what a lot of Wow, that's what a lot of these children need,
is a voice, right, so you can know what what they're thinking
and give them an opportunity to communicate with you, because they do have a
lot to say. No question, no question, and thanks and thanks for
asking. By the way, it's uh, it's very close and bee to
to to my family and to everyone that's around us. Absolutely absolutely, and
it's you know, of all the contributions you've made to the golf industry,
as significant and as they are, congratulations, this is still a lot more
important pales in comparison. Sometimes shouting up, yeah, yeah, it's like
puts things in perspective for you. Yeah, no doubt, no doubt.
Well, thank you for that work for you and Leslie, I really I
admire your persistence and what you're doing for your community. Thank you, Thank
you, appreciate it, and thank you for your time. And I'm going
to take you up on bringing you back because we're just having too much fun
talking golf call golf design and how the amateur golfer can get better, become
a smarter golfer. Yes, it's endless, it's endless. I mean we're
all we're all chasing the same dream in pursuit of being better, getting better
and uncovering whatever little tips we can to get better. And I just love
all things golf. A shout out to Wes Smith, our latest Golf Smarter
Ambassador who play at the Wilson Course at Griffith Park in Los Angeles. Wess,
I was really hoping to play with you while I'm in LA which I
am right now, but Joanne and I are babysitting our grandchildren for two weeks
and there's no childcare help in place these days, so we're on duty full
time. So as far as our drive down here, I was planning on
bringing my clubs, but once I realized that both kids are in daycare for
a short time each day, golf got pushed to the side. So to
all those young moms and dads who love to play golf but have to give
it up when you have small children, I get it, but don't despair.
They grow up and as I've heard countless times from our Golf Smarter community,
golf can return to your life. I promise, so, Wes,
I really hope we stay in touch because I've never played at Griffith Park and
hope that we can do it together in the near future. Now, Wes
to receive Tony Manzoni's video of the Lost Fundamental, which is you can tell
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so please keep your ears open for that in March and April of twenty
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