1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:28,519 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:32,479 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,799 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:43,759 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murderer. I'm Kristin 10 00:00:43,799 --> 00:00:48,359 Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. We're joined today by Catherine Miles, author of 11 00:00:48,399 --> 00:00:52,560 the amazing book Trailed, One Woman's Quest to Solve the Shenandomo Murders. Kate, 12 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:56,880 thanks for joining us today. It is always an honor and a privilege. 13 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,320 I am so glad to be with you both. Now. If we 14 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:04,200 only had some things that were worth talking about, we could talk about my 15 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:10,879 garden I'm planning some sunflowers. Is that helpful? I love sunflowers. Yes. 16 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,359 And we just had a garden tour come through our gardens, which are 17 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:19,040 really Pamela's gardens. Y see, we could talk about gardens too. I 18 00:01:19,079 --> 00:01:22,480 can only talk to a limited extent. I know a fair amount about hauling 19 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:29,439 mulch and taking brush to the recycling center. Enough of that foolishness. We 20 00:01:29,519 --> 00:01:33,400 do have some big news to talk about. And the first person that I 21 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:38,280 thought of when I heard this big news the other day was Kate. My 22 00:01:38,359 --> 00:01:41,519 first thought was, how is Kate reacting to all of this? So, 23 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,920 Kate, why don't you tell us what the big news was and how did 24 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:49,200 you react to all of it? So the big news is that the FBI 25 00:01:49,599 --> 00:01:53,719 hosted a press conference in which they announced that they believe they have now found 26 00:01:53,799 --> 00:02:00,879 the individual responsible for the nineteen ninety six double murder of Julie Williams Molly Winan's 27 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:07,400 that his name is Leo Jackson Senior, that he is a known serial rapist 28 00:02:07,519 --> 00:02:12,159 and someone who was known to frequent trails. As to how I found out 29 00:02:12,199 --> 00:02:17,520 about this, I happened to have been teaching a writing workshop in a very 30 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:23,080 lovely part of upstate New York that had very bad cell reception and even worse 31 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:28,680 Wi Fi reception, And we happened to be taking a quick break that morning 32 00:02:28,719 --> 00:02:35,159 and I checked my phone and it had blown up with requests from national media 33 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,560 sources, from national TV places like that, do you know what the press 34 00:02:38,599 --> 00:02:42,759 conference is about? Do you know what the press conference is about? And 35 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:47,280 my first response, of course, was what press conference? And luckily my 36 00:02:47,599 --> 00:02:53,599 very good friend Bill Thomas had also texted and so I can't remember if I 37 00:02:53,719 --> 00:02:58,520 called you, or I think I called you and was like, what is 38 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:00,840 this about? And you, oh, by then had found your way to 39 00:03:00,879 --> 00:03:05,439 the press release that had not been sent to me, despite the fact that 40 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:09,520 I have national journalistic credentials and obviously ought to have been there. And as 41 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:15,759 soon as you started to read to me the number of high ranking individuals who 42 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,400 were going to be at that press conference, it became very clear to me 43 00:03:19,879 --> 00:03:23,520 that they intended to announce that they were going to solve it. And we 44 00:03:23,599 --> 00:03:27,800 had heard from our media sources that there was going to be a press conference. 45 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,919 This was all on very short notice. Much of this is remarkable classic 46 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:38,080 FBI, by the way, classic and exactly the same very unfortunate scenario created 47 00:03:38,199 --> 00:03:45,240 by the FBI which we experienced back in January eighth, twenty twenty four, 48 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:50,800 when they announced the first ID in the Colonial Parkway murders. Our media context 49 00:03:51,039 --> 00:03:54,199 reached out to us and they had said, were we going to be sitting 50 00:03:54,199 --> 00:03:58,280 in on this press conference? And we were like, what press conference? 51 00:03:58,319 --> 00:04:02,080 The same reaction you had, and then we got a media alert with a 52 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,719 dial in number, And then of course I was desperately trying to track you 53 00:04:05,919 --> 00:04:11,240 down, and you're off doing good work teaching other talented writers how to be 54 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,039 even more talented writers. But I remember you were like, Okay, what's 55 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,079 the bottom line here? So I said, I can send you the press 56 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,000 release. I think I actually read some of it to you, because you 57 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:26,519 wanted to hear the meat of what was going to be announced. They didn't 58 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,600 identify a perpetrator or an offend or anything like that, but once you saw 59 00:04:30,639 --> 00:04:35,319 the list of heavy hitters from law enforcement who were involved, it was very 60 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:41,480 clear they had some significant news correct. And I, again, I was 61 00:04:41,519 --> 00:04:46,000 teaching writers who had spent a fair amount of money and traveled a very long 62 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,240 distance and left jobs and families and things like that, so that they could 63 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,079 come do this, and I explained to them what was happening. Now. 64 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:57,240 I was obviously having a lot of emotional, I think, and mental responses 65 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,720 to this, and I had said to them, listen, I am here 66 00:05:00,759 --> 00:05:03,560 for you all right. Now. I've alerted my TV producer that this is 67 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:08,439 happening. They're going to be there, They're going to record the press conference. 68 00:05:08,519 --> 00:05:13,920 They'll text me. And these incredible students were like, no, absolutely 69 00:05:13,959 --> 00:05:17,439 not. We will sit here and quietly write and you will go join this 70 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:23,519 press conference, which was incredibly generous of them, and so I did, 71 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:28,519 and I was able to hear it in real time and had, I think, 72 00:05:28,639 --> 00:05:31,360 along with every other human who was a part of this, a very 73 00:05:31,399 --> 00:05:36,480 wide range of emotions and responses in terms of what was said. Hey, 74 00:05:36,519 --> 00:05:42,040 what we did is we asked people on Mind of Murder to submit some questions 75 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,360 that they wanted to ask you with regard to this press conference. And this 76 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,839 seems like a great idea to jump to this very first question, which I 77 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,639 think is the question on all of our minds, and the question from Jamie 78 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:57,439 is I'm curious if Leo Jackson was someone Kate was aware of at all. 79 00:05:57,519 --> 00:06:00,720 When she was researching her book, Kate, had you heard this guy's name 80 00:06:00,759 --> 00:06:04,040 before? I had never heard his name, and Hi, Jamie, great 81 00:06:04,079 --> 00:06:08,920 to meet you and thank you for the question. I had not heard his 82 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,560 name ever before, and that's not super unusual in these cases. I think 83 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,600 sophisticated killers are great at flying under the radar, and a lot of times 84 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:23,319 were surprised to find someone. However, I will say that some of the 85 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:29,720 sources for my book believe that they saw Jackson in the days immediately after the 86 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:35,319 murders in the park and prior to the press conference, had described this individual 87 00:06:35,439 --> 00:06:42,160 to me in a way that tracked as credible once I finally saw a picture 88 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:47,759 of Jackson. When you described what they had said and how they described a 89 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:53,800 person which we believe could be Jackson, the way they described him was pretty 90 00:06:53,959 --> 00:06:58,399 spot on. When you actually see his photograph from back in the day, 91 00:06:59,199 --> 00:07:04,879 he really looks essentially exactly the way they described him. They mentioned a particular 92 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:11,519 actor who really does look a fair amount like Leo Jackson. Yes, and 93 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,480 so for folks who are not familiar with the book, there were a group 94 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:19,759 of women who were hiking through Shenandoah when the murder happened, and I followed 95 00:07:19,839 --> 00:07:25,480 their story for a variety of reasons. First, I feel like it really 96 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,160 set the tone of what it was like to be a hiker, and especially 97 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,079 a female hiker in the park while all this was going on. I think 98 00:07:32,079 --> 00:07:36,560 it's really important to remember that we believe the women were killed on May twenty 99 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:42,480 eighth. Their bodies were found very late in the day on the last day 100 00:07:42,639 --> 00:07:46,800 of May, the morning of June first. At that point, no news 101 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,680 had been released, the crime scene had not been processed, the bodies were 102 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:54,959 still at the scene until very late about eleven am on June first. The 103 00:07:55,000 --> 00:08:01,720 park deliberately chose to withhold information about the murders for several days, and then 104 00:08:01,759 --> 00:08:05,879 when they did finally release this late in the day that Tuesday, which would 105 00:08:05,879 --> 00:08:07,800 have been the third they first tried to say it was a bear attack, 106 00:08:07,959 --> 00:08:11,360 and then they tried to say it was a murder suicide. So I think 107 00:08:11,399 --> 00:08:18,079 that's just some important context here. These women encountered two men very early in 108 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,120 the morning on June first, so again before any news had been released anywhere. 109 00:08:22,279 --> 00:08:26,800 They were approximately thirty miles north of the crime scene, still in Shenandoah 110 00:08:26,879 --> 00:08:31,759 National Park, and they encountered a man who purported to be a through hiker 111 00:08:31,879 --> 00:08:37,879 who immediately asked them at about seven am, did you hear about the murder 112 00:08:37,879 --> 00:08:43,399 of the two women? And then he was very quickly joined and was rendezvousing 113 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,200 by with a friend in this parking lot. And again this is pre cell 114 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:52,759 phone, right, so nothing was coordinated here. Information was not traveling the 115 00:08:52,799 --> 00:08:58,240 way it travels in twenty twenty four. This friend showed up also knew about 116 00:08:58,279 --> 00:09:03,279 the murders. These men had a very performative conversation about the murders. And 117 00:09:03,639 --> 00:09:07,399 the women have always described this man in the car to me as a driving 118 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:13,679 a beater car and b looking just like Philip Seymour Hoffman. And if you 119 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,799 look at the picture of Jackson, he looks like Philips Seymour Hoffman. And 120 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:22,759 what they've said to me is the minute we saw that photo, one of 121 00:09:22,799 --> 00:09:26,360 them said to me, I like all the hairs on my neck stood up. 122 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:28,919 I got goosebumps. I felt it in the pit of my stomach. 123 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:35,320 She had this very visceral reaction to seeing Jackson's photo that in the nearly thirty 124 00:09:35,399 --> 00:09:39,120 years since this crime she has never had. And I put a lot of 125 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,440 stock in that, and I put a lot of stock in the fact that 126 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:46,919 they have been telling me this story since twenty eighteen, long before Jackson, 127 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,600 and so far as I can tell, the FBI and National Park Service never 128 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,679 followed up, despite the fact that they immediately told a ranger. So by 129 00:09:54,759 --> 00:10:00,720 eight am at the very latest that morning, they had told Arrange about this 130 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,559 experience. Within a day or two, they had called the FBI. Within 131 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,360 a day or two after that, they had gotten the photo of the through 132 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:13,320 hiker developed and sent to the FBI. And when readers read my book, 133 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,320 a lot of them will email me and they'll say this through hiker. When 134 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,360 I was making a case that I thought mark of on its should have been 135 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,399 looked at in more detail, very perceptive readers would write it and say, 136 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:26,440 but yeah, but does the through hiker look like mark of on its? 137 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,399 And I'd be like, no, he doesn't. And I'd be like, 138 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:33,559 that calls mark of on It's into question for me, which is the exact 139 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,679 right response here. Again, I think it's one of those very unfortunate cases 140 00:10:37,799 --> 00:10:45,159 where people citizens and women in particular, are ultimately discredited by investigators as not 141 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:50,200 having useful information when that information ought to be very valued. Kate, We've 142 00:10:50,279 --> 00:10:56,000 used the expression through hiker several times for the benefit of someone that's never been 143 00:10:56,039 --> 00:11:00,919 to the Appalachian Trail or maybe from another part of the world through hiker. 144 00:11:01,399 --> 00:11:05,600 Great question, thank you. So the Appalachian Trail is approximately twenty two hundred 145 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,440 miles long. It begins in Georgia and it goes to Maine, all along 146 00:11:09,519 --> 00:11:15,639 the Appalachian Mountain Ridge. A through hiker is someone who takes about usually four 147 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:20,039 to six months to hike the trail from beginning to end. So if they're 148 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:24,639 a northbound through hiker, they start in Georgia and they continuously hike all the 149 00:11:24,639 --> 00:11:28,399 way to Maine. If they're south bound, it's obviously reversed. So these 150 00:11:28,399 --> 00:11:31,519 are folks who are going to do the whole trail in one bit, as 151 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:35,679 opposed to flip flop hikers or section hikers who are going to break up this 152 00:11:35,759 --> 00:11:41,720 trip. So this person purported to be a through hiker, I will say, 153 00:11:41,759 --> 00:11:46,960 having covered hiking for a variety of publications for a very long time and 154 00:11:46,039 --> 00:11:50,000 spent a lot of time on the trail, first of all, and I 155 00:11:50,039 --> 00:11:54,080 say this with great love to all through hikers. Through hikers have a very 156 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,559 distinct smell after they've been on the trail for a while. You can't watch 157 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,200 it on your gear out. I've written on stories about through hikers who have 158 00:12:01,279 --> 00:12:07,360 not been allowed on planes even after they've showered and washed their gear because it 159 00:12:07,399 --> 00:12:11,120 still has that special funk to it. So through hikers have a look, 160 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:16,480 they have a demeanor, they have a smell. These women always thought that 161 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,159 this guy looked way too clean. They thought his pack was way too small 162 00:12:20,279 --> 00:12:24,679 to be carrying. They thought he was really going out of his way to 163 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,519 establish to them that he was a through hiker in a way that didn't really 164 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:33,600 feel legit to them. So he has always stood out to me and to 165 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,440 readers as a very peculiar part of this story that can't but needs to be 166 00:12:37,519 --> 00:12:41,200 explained. And these women, it's Is it fair to refer to them as 167 00:12:41,279 --> 00:12:46,679 the Ands? These are the ans who were referred to in Trailed your book? 168 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,960 Yes, I call them the Ans, conveniently because all three of them 169 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,799 are named Their first names are Ann And so this was to be their first 170 00:12:54,960 --> 00:13:01,039 real sort of multi day backpacking experience. They had for it for a really 171 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,919 long time. They'd prepared. It's through their experience that I think we really 172 00:13:05,039 --> 00:13:11,120 see the very real fear that was happening because of the misinformation and lack of 173 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:16,559 information that the park Service was giving to folks in the park who rightly wondered 174 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:22,159 about their safety. The sixty four thousand dollars question from two of our listeners, 175 00:13:22,279 --> 00:13:28,679 Rebecca and Deborah is Leo Jackson, the man the ANNs saw on the 176 00:13:28,759 --> 00:13:33,279 trail and took a photo of no and I have that photo. I'm still 177 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,440 in the process of trying to track down who that individual was. But that 178 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:43,320 individual knew his friend who rendezvoud in the parking lot with him. And again 179 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:48,840 this is pre cell phone, So rendezvoyenne at seven am off of a trail 180 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,960 in a parking lot without contact, it's hard to do. In nineteen ninety 181 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:58,080 six. The ANNs strongly believe that the friend that rendezvoued in this so called 182 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:03,159 beater car is in fact Jackson. And did they happen to recognize the car? 183 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,960 So they want to be I should just say, first of all, 184 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,879 they're great humans, and they take all of this very seriously, and they've 185 00:14:11,919 --> 00:14:16,679 been really scarred by all of this they believe it to be. But they 186 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:22,039 are also very cognizant of this kind of influential thing that happens, like when 187 00:14:22,039 --> 00:14:26,759 you see a car, your brain does that own kind of version of confirmation 188 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,639 bias and says, oh, yeah, that's the car. So will they 189 00:14:28,679 --> 00:14:33,360 swear on their life that it was the car? No? Are they really 190 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,519 certain this was the guy they saw on the parking lot? Yes, and 191 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:41,120 it is twenty eight years later. Some people are into cars, some people 192 00:14:41,159 --> 00:14:46,039 are not, and they weren't necessarily fixed on those details. But it is 193 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:52,960 very striking that the man who drove up for the rendezvous with the guy who 194 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:58,559 presented himself as a through hiker so strongly resembled Jackson as we see him now. 195 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,879 And again they told me this years ago. Right, if they had 196 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,240 just called me on Sunday and said, Kate, did we mention that the 197 00:15:07,279 --> 00:15:11,720 guy looked like Philip Seymour Hoffman, my journalistic spidey sense would go off and 198 00:15:11,759 --> 00:15:15,360 I'd be like, Okay, prove it. But again, I have this 199 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:20,120 in notes going back years, and I think that lends a lot of credibility 200 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:26,039 to their experience. And I also frankly believe in our bodily responses to things 201 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:31,399 like these are sophisticated humans. They're outdoors people, they're professionals. Like, 202 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,000 when you have that strong of a visceral reaction to something, I key in 203 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:39,360 on that. I think there's something to that. I want to go back 204 00:15:39,399 --> 00:15:43,840 to some of our listener questions, because when we say they've been clamoring to 205 00:15:43,919 --> 00:15:50,080 hear from you, we are not exaggerating in any way. So many people 206 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,759 as soon as we put the word out, and I think it was immediately 207 00:15:52,759 --> 00:15:54,960 after the press conference and Bill was like, we got to talk to Kate. 208 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,480 I put out a little thing and said yes, we're having Kate Miles 209 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,399 on the pot and everyone was like yeah. They blew up. They were 210 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,759 so excited. There's a lot you have a lot of fans. I need 211 00:16:03,799 --> 00:16:07,639 to say how much that means to me, just really quickly. This work 212 00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:11,679 is so hard, as you two know, and you sometimes really feel like 213 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,679 you live in a vacuum and it's a really ugly, yucky vacuum, and 214 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:21,519 so I just want to quickly say that hearing that just makes this work that 215 00:16:21,639 --> 00:16:22,919 much easier. And so I just want to thank you all for that so 216 00:16:23,039 --> 00:16:30,679 much. And this actually leads into a comment here from Raven and she starts 217 00:16:30,679 --> 00:16:34,240 by saying that you're an absolutely wonderful person and she is so thrilled to have 218 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,080 done an interview with you when Trailed was released. I'll do first and last 219 00:16:38,159 --> 00:16:41,200 names a little bit later, but you may know who I'm talking about. 220 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,320 I know exactly who you're talking about, Okay, she said, I'm so 221 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,519 glad that Kate gets to see some resolution, as most of us who write 222 00:16:47,519 --> 00:16:52,000 about cold cases do not. How do you feel about the fact that you 223 00:16:52,039 --> 00:16:55,960 have an answer? Finally, for Julian Lawy, that's got to feel. 224 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:57,960 I actually don't want to put words into your mouth. You tell us, 225 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:03,919 how does it feel. I was not prepared for the significance, and I'd 226 00:17:03,919 --> 00:17:07,079 even go so far as to say the severity of the emotional response that I 227 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,480 had when this happened. I think I had thought about it intellectually, but 228 00:17:11,519 --> 00:17:15,119 I hadn't thought about what it would mean. And as I say in the 229 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,160 book, Lolly and Julie's story had resonated with me on a very personal level 230 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,359 from the start by sheer coincidence. Beginning in two thousand and one, as 231 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:27,279 a twenty seven year old, I took my first college teaching job at Unity 232 00:17:27,279 --> 00:17:30,359 College, which is where Lollie had been a student when she was murdered, 233 00:17:32,079 --> 00:17:37,519 and so I was immediately thrust into her friend group. Her professors had become 234 00:17:37,559 --> 00:17:41,480 my colleagues, and along the way I have gotten to know their friends and 235 00:17:41,559 --> 00:17:47,759 family, and I've seen firsthand how significantly this has impacted them. So there 236 00:17:47,839 --> 00:17:52,079 was a lot going on in my tiny little brain that day, and I 237 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:57,240 am obviously delighted that we can hopefully say we know who did this and move 238 00:17:57,279 --> 00:18:02,839 on. And I think that's really important. I think the word closure is 239 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,839 a tricky one. I don't know that anybody has closure because of this. 240 00:18:07,759 --> 00:18:12,920 I think that potentially being able to identify the perpetrator here is important and great. 241 00:18:14,319 --> 00:18:18,839 I personally left that press conference with far more questions than I had answered, 242 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:26,000 and it definitely created these two minds of me where I was feeling and 243 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:32,119 experiencing and talking to friends and family who felt some real relief. They also 244 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:37,119 were very angry, as I am as well too. So I think parsing 245 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,079 all of that out is really tricky, Even these number of days later, 246 00:18:41,079 --> 00:18:45,559 absolutely I can see that. And so then before we get to more listener 247 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,960 questions, let's go ahead and jump in. Let's talk about the press conference. 248 00:18:49,799 --> 00:18:52,680 As Bill and I are fully aware, there is a lot that the 249 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:57,119 FBI will not say in their press conferences, and there was a lot left 250 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,559 unsaid here. So Kate, why don't you run us through what didn't you 251 00:19:00,559 --> 00:19:04,960 get an answer to that you feel is really appropriate for them to answer. 252 00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:10,160 The short answer is just about everything. Right. Look, I have made 253 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:15,839 no secret that a the FBI is a black box indefensible ways that make it 254 00:19:17,039 --> 00:19:21,400 very difficult for journalists to do their work and make it very difficult for family 255 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:26,160 members like Bill to exist in the world, and they need to improve on 256 00:19:26,279 --> 00:19:30,799 both of those things immediately. I, as a journalist, am always paying 257 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,440 attention not only to what is said, but what is not said, and 258 00:19:34,759 --> 00:19:38,440 I think both of those things are really important here. First of all, 259 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:44,359 the FBI, I think really misled folks in some real ways in that press 260 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,960 conference, particularly concerning their treatment of Darryl David Rice, who your listeners may 261 00:19:49,039 --> 00:19:56,559 recall was indicted for capital murder in two thousand and two. Again, John 262 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:02,759 Ashcroft and the DOJ were seeking the death penalty again Daryl Rice. They prosecuted 263 00:20:02,799 --> 00:20:07,599 to the point of persecution Daryl Rice. They excluded all other suspects because they 264 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,759 were so single minded in their belief that Daryl Rice was guilty, and they 265 00:20:11,799 --> 00:20:17,079 persisted in that well after the publication of this book. So what I did 266 00:20:17,079 --> 00:20:22,240 not hear, for starters was any accountability in terms of the treatment Darryl Rice 267 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,759 had, and I would be happy to unpack that in more detail. They 268 00:20:25,799 --> 00:20:30,200 certainly did not apologize to Rice. They did not acknowledge the tremendous damage they've 269 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,720 done to him. They did not acknowledge the way in which their own confirmation 270 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:41,160 bias meant that we only now think that Jackson has done this after he is 271 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:47,119 dead. So this case will never officially be closed because they can only say 272 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:52,599 they believe he's responsible based on the DNA, so that prosecution will never happen. 273 00:20:52,759 --> 00:20:57,200 And because that prosecution will never happen, we will never get any more 274 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:02,960 answers than the FBI wants to give us if in the case of Dale Rice. 275 00:21:03,039 --> 00:21:04,799 One of the main reasons I was able to do the work I did 276 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:10,200 in the book is because of what's called discovery rules in court. Right. 277 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:15,440 Discovery rules are the prosecution of the defense have to exchange evidence before the case, 278 00:21:15,839 --> 00:21:19,720 and because that occurred, I had a lot of resources available to me. 279 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:25,640 Because this is never going to court. The FBI doesn't have to answer 280 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:30,160 any questions, does not have to show their work. And there are myriad 281 00:21:30,839 --> 00:21:33,319 questions, both in terms of what they said, some of which I think 282 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,599 is patently misleading at that press conference, and what they didn't say and what 283 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:44,359 they are now refusing to say. That is not acceptable for anyone. This 284 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:51,759 is beyond garbage. Because now the FBI plays it both ways. I can't 285 00:21:51,799 --> 00:21:56,799 help but can compare and contrast. In the Colonial Parkway murders, they're saying, 286 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,319 oh, no, we can't answer those questions of the suspect in that 287 00:22:00,599 --> 00:22:07,640 case because it's an ongoing and investigation. And I do understand that to a 288 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:14,920 certain extent. But when the question came up January eighth that the murder of 289 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,400 Robin Edwards and David Nobling as part of the Colonial Parkway murders had been resolved, 290 00:22:19,759 --> 00:22:26,759 a number of press people sent in foyer Freedom of Information Act requests for 291 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,200 more information, In other words, how did you solve this case? All 292 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,640 of a sudden, the FBI and the Virginia State Police are backing up saying 293 00:22:33,839 --> 00:22:37,880 we didn't mean to say that the case was closed. Oh no, we 294 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:45,160 can't provide any additional information. Now turned to Julian Lawley's case. It is 295 00:22:45,519 --> 00:22:49,559 truly exciting news, and it is good news. I would argue, as 296 00:22:49,599 --> 00:22:53,039 the brother of a murder victim, when you've been waiting for twenty eight years 297 00:22:53,079 --> 00:22:59,960 for answers in terms of who killed your loved one, to have those answers, 298 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,559 it's not going to make your life perfect, but it is something you've 299 00:23:03,559 --> 00:23:07,720 been seeking for nearly thirty years. Your point that they're not going to answer 300 00:23:07,759 --> 00:23:14,680 any more questions, this is beyond the beyond. This is completely unacceptable. 301 00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:21,759 There are so many questions that I have about how they arrived at identifying Jackson 302 00:23:21,839 --> 00:23:26,119 as a suspect. And I think, and I will say this repeatedly until 303 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:32,880 the FBI responds in a meaningful way. They have a responsibility to the people 304 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:38,640 of Virginia and the American citizens. We have a right to know how this 305 00:23:40,279 --> 00:23:47,680 happened, how was this case solved. I'm not a big fan of Daryl 306 00:23:47,759 --> 00:23:52,440 David Rice personally. I think he has his own set of extreme issues. 307 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:59,799 So I'm not liked in the Daryl David Rice camp with both feet far from 308 00:23:59,799 --> 00:24:04,279 it, but I know they're never. The FBI will never apologize, they'll 309 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,359 never admit fault, they'll never say they were sorry. They did the same 310 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:14,079 thing to our families when we found out they had destroyed my sister's rape kit 311 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,400 and that of Rebecca Dowski. They burned them as medical waste, eight years 312 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,799 after the fact, and they refuse to apologize, They refuse to even call 313 00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:29,839 it a mistake to burn someone's evidence in an unsolved capital murder case. The 314 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:37,880 FBI owes the American people an explanation for how this case was solved, full 315 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,480 stop. Yes, yes, And before we even get to that, let 316 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,480 me just remind folks that, regardless of your thoughts on Darryl Rice, let's 317 00:24:45,559 --> 00:24:52,759 just quickly unpack the incredible links they went to to try to coerce a confession 318 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:59,160 from this guy, despite the fact that their lab repeatedly demonstrated that his DNA 319 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,519 could be exclusively excluded from all of the evidence taken from the seat. And 320 00:25:03,599 --> 00:25:10,599 let's also remind folks that Darryl Rice had an ironclad alibi for May twenty eighth, 321 00:25:10,599 --> 00:25:14,680 which is when the medical examiner said that the women were killed, and 322 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:19,160 that when that happened, both the FBI and the Park Service walked back the 323 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,799 date of death three days, and all of a sudden, we're like, 324 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,759 oh, the medical examiner using the best technology available to determine time of death 325 00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:33,599 was wrong. It was actually May twenty fifth, and again the women were 326 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,200 found on May thirty first, there was no sign of decomposition on the women, 327 00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:41,720 and so then again they went out to discredit and intimidate witnesses, like 328 00:25:41,839 --> 00:25:47,640 there is actual malfeasons that happened here, and that doesn't even go into the 329 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:55,559 untold resources that they spent after Daryl Rice's DNA was excluded to try to entrap 330 00:25:55,599 --> 00:26:00,359 and coerce him into a confession. You're listening to Mind over Murder or we'll 331 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:07,319 be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover 332 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,319 Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just wanted to remind you 333 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,079 that we have a go fundme effort going on right now. This campaign is 334 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:22,279 designed to help us raise funds to help promote mindover Murder and specifically to push 335 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,759 the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. We'd love it if you could support us 336 00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:32,680 in any way that you can. Any donation from five dollars to whatever you 337 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,240 can afford is very much appreciated and will be incredibly helpful. The link is 338 00:26:37,279 --> 00:26:41,759 in the show notes and in our social media pages. As always, thanks 339 00:26:41,799 --> 00:26:48,680 for your support. Now back to mind over Murder, putting undercover counter terrorist 340 00:26:48,839 --> 00:26:53,359 investigators in his cell, a three year pen pal campaign, fabricating issues of 341 00:26:53,400 --> 00:27:00,519 The Washington Post using Darryll's mental illness to try to coerce confuction, and then 342 00:27:00,599 --> 00:27:06,400 even after he was released for the nineteen ninety seven crime, planting stories about 343 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,319 Darryl in papers such that Daryl basically had to go underground, which is where 344 00:27:10,319 --> 00:27:12,200 he is now. Can I quote from your own book for a second, 345 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,799 please, because I was just rereading this earlier today and I went through and 346 00:27:17,839 --> 00:27:21,839 like I'd annotated it even more than I already annotated at the first time. 347 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,839 I just send you a new copy by that, But I just this really 348 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,039 encapsulates what you were just saying, and I happen to have highlighted it a 349 00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:33,359 little bit earlier today. Over the next five years, investigators went to extraordinary 350 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,039 links, not just relying on forensic analysis and physical evidence, but also employing 351 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:44,759 extensive psychological profiling, exhaustive interviews, and an undercover FBI agent whom they embedded 352 00:27:44,799 --> 00:27:48,720 in Rice's cell. But in the end, the only evidence they had implicating 353 00:27:48,839 --> 00:27:55,400 Rice was, by Tim Alley's own admission, only circumstantial. Mic Drop. 354 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,319 I mean, you couldn't put it any better than that. That's insane. 355 00:28:00,039 --> 00:28:04,559 They hounded this guy for decades and destroyed his life, There's no question about 356 00:28:04,599 --> 00:28:10,279 it. Not the FBI's finest hour. No, it's not. And the 357 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,400 fact that you know, as Kate was saying, are not going to apologize. 358 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:15,279 You said this too, Bill, and I agree with you. They're 359 00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:18,799 not going to apologize. They're not going to offer accountability. That's so important. 360 00:28:18,839 --> 00:28:22,240 You and I have used that term a number of times with regard to 361 00:28:22,319 --> 00:28:26,920 our friends at the FBI, good evening, to the analysts who are listening. 362 00:28:26,279 --> 00:28:30,319 Accountability and transparency are not their strong points, and they know it because 363 00:28:30,319 --> 00:28:34,839 it is all about reputation and face saving. And here again is another example 364 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,119 of them deciding, you know what, we screwed up, and we know 365 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,160 we screwed up, but we're not going to mention that to anybody. Hopefully 366 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,279 they're going to forget about it. Kate didn't forget. Bill didn't forget. 367 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,039 We've got the receipts it's right there in Kate's book. It's garbage what they're 368 00:28:48,079 --> 00:28:51,000 doing. And not only that, but at this press conference, they went 369 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,000 out of their way to try to justify the fact that they had honed in 370 00:28:55,079 --> 00:28:57,359 on Darryl Rice. And these are my words, not the words of the 371 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:02,519 FBI that then proceeded to say that they basically had to have a series of 372 00:29:02,599 --> 00:29:07,400 lemonade stands to pay for this new DNA testing. And I really want to 373 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,680 unpack all of that, to which I say, hey, guess what, 374 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,400 had you not hounded Darryl Rice to these indefensible means when your own lab told 375 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,599 you he wasn't the guy, you would have had the financial resources that you 376 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:26,400 needed to test this DNA. Dale Rice's legal team had been asking repeatedly for 377 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,160 this DNA to be retested. They've been asking since two thousand and four for 378 00:29:30,279 --> 00:29:33,480 this, and we kept being told it didn't need to be retested. And 379 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,640 again, I am not anti law enforcement. I am not. However, 380 00:29:38,839 --> 00:29:45,200 I will say that when you make the kind of egregious mistakes that were repeatedly 381 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,319 made in this case over the course of almost thirty years, you would buy 382 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,519 a lot of trust with the American public. If you would own that, 383 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:57,279 and I would really like to see the Attorney General's Office and the Department of 384 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,880 Justice stand up and say, look, we did this wrong, and we're 385 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:07,519 going to immediately have an internal investigation to understand why this went sideways so badly 386 00:30:07,799 --> 00:30:11,359 and so that it doesn't happen again, because we see again and again this 387 00:30:11,519 --> 00:30:18,359 level of confirmation bias completely steinying investigations, which is why we have two hundred 388 00:30:18,359 --> 00:30:22,640 and fifty thousand cold cases in America right now. Yeah, we're seeing a 389 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,079 new number, by the way, from reliable sources that now put that number 390 00:30:26,119 --> 00:30:30,640 at three hundred and fifty thousand unsolved cold case homicides in the United States, 391 00:30:32,759 --> 00:30:37,279 many of which, like Lolly and Julie, are solvable if you are willing 392 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:42,440 to continue to look at this with a beginner's mind, right or retesting DNA 393 00:30:42,599 --> 00:30:47,839 or for instance, loading DNA results to CODIS, which I know you all 394 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,799 have had some experience with in terms of even being able to figure out what 395 00:30:52,039 --> 00:30:56,079 DNA is loaded to codis and why. But look, we had Jackson's DNA 396 00:30:56,119 --> 00:31:00,079 a long time ago, we had the DNA technology needed to test it. 397 00:31:00,519 --> 00:31:06,480 The FBI lab has had the DNA technology to test this for twenty years, 398 00:31:06,759 --> 00:31:11,119 really, and so this idea that new techniques have suddenly emerged that make this 399 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,279 possible, I'm going to call BS on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 400 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,440 now I will as well. One of my first reactions to reading the 401 00:31:19,519 --> 00:31:23,920 FBI press release, which came out shortly after the press conference started, was, 402 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:30,880 wait a minute, there's nothing in this material as put out that indicates 403 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:37,319 that there's anything new about the evidence that they've had in this case since nineteen 404 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:44,799 ninety six. I do agree there have been significant advances in forensics in the 405 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,519 last ten years, certainly in the last five years post Golden State Killer, 406 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,759 but that evidence was all there, this entire Yeah, and let's be clear. 407 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,200 They had the saliva of the perpetrator. They had hair that was in 408 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,359 the duct tape, They had hair that was in the gloves, They had 409 00:32:01,759 --> 00:32:06,960 cigarette butts, they had a beer can, all of which we believe. 410 00:32:07,079 --> 00:32:12,359 There was a Mountain dew bottle in a Walmart bag, which was not brought 411 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,680 by Lollly and Julie. They had the evidence to retest again back in two 412 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,839 thousand and four. What they did not say, among other things at the 413 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,440 press conference, is what of this DNA they tested. We don't know, 414 00:32:25,519 --> 00:32:29,960 for instance, if it was trace DNA. We don't know if it was 415 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:35,759 the saliva. We don't know why it was sent to a private lab when 416 00:32:36,039 --> 00:32:39,960 FBI Forensics at Quantico is more than capable of taking care of this. We 417 00:32:40,079 --> 00:32:45,240 don't know what DNA technique was used to test this. The other thing that 418 00:32:45,319 --> 00:32:51,119 was very notable to me was the fact that they stated that had Jackson been 419 00:32:51,319 --> 00:32:54,400 alive at the time of the press conference, that he absolutely would have been 420 00:32:54,480 --> 00:33:00,559 charged not only with two counts of murder, but also with rape. That 421 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:05,720 is new. That is new. Rice notably was not charged with rape. 422 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:10,319 I have the medical examiner's reports. No semen was found, no sperm were 423 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,519 found. I'm not saying that Lolly and Julie were not raped. We've always 424 00:33:14,599 --> 00:33:16,880 believed that this was a sexual crime, and we've always believed that Julie was 425 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,480 a target. But that's a bomb drop that all of a sudden we know 426 00:33:21,559 --> 00:33:24,680 without the fact that these two women were raped. So based on what exactly, 427 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,759 and again I'm not doubting the findings, but I am saying it is 428 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,440 notable that they are not explaining any of these findings, and after twenty eight 429 00:33:34,559 --> 00:33:40,000 years of maintaining that Julie and Lollie were not sexually assaulted to come out and 430 00:33:40,079 --> 00:33:45,119 say that they were sexually assaulted. Again, I agree with you, Kate. 431 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:50,279 I'm not disputing what they're saying. They owe us more, and I 432 00:33:50,279 --> 00:33:53,759 don't mean the three of us, Kristen, Kate, and Bill. They 433 00:33:53,880 --> 00:34:00,240 owe all of us more of an explanation than we're getting for them to come 434 00:34:00,279 --> 00:34:06,759 out and say the two women were sexually assaulted. Okay, by what evidence? 435 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:12,159 How did you solve this case? How did you connect Jackson and Kate? 436 00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:17,239 As you're saying, this evidence has been sitting in evidence lockers since nineteen 437 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:24,480 ninety six, So what's new here? Their failure to answer basic questions about 438 00:34:24,519 --> 00:34:30,519 how they solved this. I get the fact that Special Agent charge Meter is 439 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,880 proud of the fact that when he came in and took over that Richmond office, 440 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,400 he ordered a top to bottom review of this case. As I understand 441 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:44,320 it, that's great. So what did they find. We're not taking Jackson 442 00:34:44,599 --> 00:34:49,400 to court here, There isn't there There aren't going to be any charges filed. 443 00:34:49,599 --> 00:34:54,639 But I think we deserve answers to these questions, and we're just starting 444 00:34:54,719 --> 00:35:00,199 on the first pass here. Now, you recently sent a letter to the 445 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:05,800 FBI with a series of questions. I did, and I asked them a 446 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,440 variety of questions, including what DNA was retested, what evidence was retested. 447 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,400 I asked them what mechanism was used to retest it. I asked why a 448 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:22,199 private lab was used. I asked whether there was any DNA found that was 449 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:27,159 not Jackson, Lay and Julie. I asked whether there was going to be 450 00:35:27,199 --> 00:35:30,679 an internal investigation. I asked whether there was going to be an apology for 451 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,760 Daryl Rice. I asked whether these results were loaded to CODIS. I asked 452 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,960 whether they were going to be compared to some of the very similar crimes that 453 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:44,239 happened, including Alicia Showalter Reynolds, and I was told that no further information 454 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:49,400 would be forthcoming and that they would not be answering these or any other questions. 455 00:35:50,039 --> 00:35:54,159 Those are questions very similar to things that our listeners are also asking. 456 00:35:54,519 --> 00:36:00,559 One that I think was particularly interesting is from a listener who lives in that 457 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:07,920 area of Virginia. Karen says, does Leo does Leo Jackson have links to 458 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:13,119 Virginia and what is the probability that he could be the perpetrator in other unsolved 459 00:36:13,119 --> 00:36:17,320 cases in Virginia during the times he was not incarcerated. I am not trying 460 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:22,039 to pin every unsolved case on him, but we now know he was in 461 00:36:22,159 --> 00:36:25,079 Virginia at least one time. It is so scary to think we had multiple 462 00:36:25,119 --> 00:36:30,360 creeps praying on the area of the Commonwealth that I deem a safe place to 463 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,280 live, work and raise my daughters. And I think Karen's bringing up a 464 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:37,119 great point here, what do you think about whether or not he might be 465 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,320 linked to some of these other crimes. I realize it's only supposition on our 466 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,320 parts, but do you want to lay that out a little bit? Sure? 467 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,199 Absolutely, What the FBI tells us is that he was an avid hiker. 468 00:36:47,559 --> 00:36:51,239 Again, it's not clear to me how and why they know that, 469 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,719 but assuming that they're telling us the truth here, we know that we know 470 00:36:54,920 --> 00:37:00,440 that he was a serial rapist. What forensic profilers are telling me is, 471 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:06,880 Look, it's a really big jump from being a serial rapist to someone who 472 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:15,440 commits a very sophisticated, very controlled double homicide of two strong outdoor leaders who 473 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,280 also have a dog with them. This is a person who arrived with a 474 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,159 murder kit. This is a person we know who had duct tape, who 475 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:28,920 had a very large serrated knife, who knew how to commit this crime in 476 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,360 a way that would leave very little trace. So the idea that this that 477 00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:39,519 Jackson would go from serial rape to super sophisticated controlled double homicide doesn't really work, 478 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:45,159 doesn't really track with many people, and so probably we don't know. 479 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,840 But probably if Jackson is in fact the perpetrator here, there's some middle, 480 00:37:50,119 --> 00:37:53,960 pretty big middle chapter we don't know about where he went from rape to double 481 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:59,039 homicide in such a controlled way. The other question, then, of course, 482 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,239 is what we know. Obviously, there are plenty of serial killers and 483 00:38:02,679 --> 00:38:07,679 violent offenders who stop killing and go on to live lives, so it is 484 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:12,920 possible that would happen. But it's also a little improbable that this person would 485 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:19,320 make the jump from serial rape to sophisticated double homicide and then return to rape, 486 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:23,800 which we know he did almost immediately within, but then not return to 487 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:30,519 killing. That doesn't seem likely. It's possible, but it doesn't seem likely. 488 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,519 Is it the case, for instance, that Jackson is in fact responsible 489 00:38:34,679 --> 00:38:38,440 for other murders? I think that's likely. To what degree are we looking 490 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:43,480 at? Has the FBI, for instance, formed a special task force, 491 00:38:44,079 --> 00:38:47,119 which they did very briefly with mark of Hoonness, but then disbanded that task 492 00:38:47,159 --> 00:38:51,880 force before it had done any work. I think that these are all again 493 00:38:52,039 --> 00:38:55,280 questions that need to be answered, and what I'm being told by experts in 494 00:38:55,320 --> 00:39:00,599 the field is that probably there was at least one, if not multiple murders 495 00:39:00,639 --> 00:39:05,159 between rape and Lolly and Julie. So what's being done to parse that out. 496 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,280 Some of our experts have told us about escalation, and we've talked about 497 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:15,360 how offenders will start and they'll grow. This is not in the positive sense, 498 00:39:15,519 --> 00:39:22,599 but they'll grow into extreme violence, which ultimately may lead them to crimes 499 00:39:22,639 --> 00:39:29,760 like this involving rape and murder. I'm disturbed that they seem to be saying 500 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:35,719 he's over here in Ohio committing pretty heinous rapes and the word kidnapping has been 501 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,119 used as well. Yees correct at my point, which is good right now, 502 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:44,039 but that could be part of a pattern of escalation, without question, 503 00:39:44,159 --> 00:39:50,000 But they're really failing to address how they think this guy got to this point. 504 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,599 One other thing I'm terribly disturbed about is they made this statement that this 505 00:39:54,800 --> 00:40:00,000 was not a hate crime I don't know if this was a hate crime. 506 00:40:00,039 --> 00:40:05,000 I don't know that it wasn't a hate crime, and I'm sure not very 507 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:09,599 comfortable with the FBI blithely announcing this was not a hate crime, because Kathy 508 00:40:09,599 --> 00:40:15,039 and Becky's murder in the Colonial Parkway murders could be a hate crime as well. 509 00:40:15,159 --> 00:40:17,400 I don't know yet if it is or it isn't. I hope to 510 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:22,559 have answers someday. I don't know how they can make this statement that the 511 00:40:22,679 --> 00:40:28,760 murder of Julie Williams and Lawley Wining's was not a hate crime. By what 512 00:40:29,079 --> 00:40:36,400 standard of evidence are you telling me you've researched this exceptionally violent, horrible man's 513 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:42,840 history, because you're not finding any overt expressions of homophobia or a hatred of 514 00:40:43,039 --> 00:40:47,400 lesbians. He certainly is someone I could argue hates women on some level. 515 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:54,239 He's out attacking women repeatedly. Where does the FBI get off suddenly announcing, 516 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:59,039 oh, this wasn't a hate crime? Is that because they made such a 517 00:40:59,039 --> 00:41:02,800 big deal back in the DARYLD David Rice era that this was a hate crime 518 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,960 and now that we've clearly screwed up and that wasn't the right guy, and 519 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,679 now we finally identified the offender. Oh, but it's not a hate crime 520 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:15,159 because that's sterile David Rice's department. For anybody who wasn't able to watch the 521 00:41:15,199 --> 00:41:19,719 press conference, I want to put that remark in context here for a second. 522 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,320 This is what was said with regard to the hate crime or not hate 523 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:27,239 crime aspect. Quote, make no mistake, this crime was brutal. This 524 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,760 crime was definitionally hateful. Nevertheless, we do not have any evidence that the 525 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:37,519 victims were selected for, or that Jackson had any knowledge of, or was 526 00:41:37,599 --> 00:41:43,760 otherwise motivated by their membership in a protected class. Quote hate You want to 527 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,239 sure, Leena. First, I want to say that there's the legal definition 528 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:52,159 of hate crime, and then there's the social reality of hate crime. This 529 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,679 was absolutely a hate crime in the sense that it did, in fact mean 530 00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:02,039 that a lot of people who identify as feminine or female or queer felt like 531 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:07,719 they could not go to the wilderness after this crime occurred, and in that 532 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:12,480 regard, it had the impact of a hate crime on an entire generation of 533 00:42:12,519 --> 00:42:17,599 people. The legal definition of hate crime means that you're identifying someone because of 534 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:22,239 certain protected groups, and you mentioned that, so obviously in this case, 535 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,960 it's Lolly and Julie's sexuality. I think it's very important to remind folks that 536 00:42:27,039 --> 00:42:32,000 investigators did not believe that this was a hate crime going into this, and 537 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:37,159 that what investigators told me is that they were blind sided in two thousand and 538 00:42:37,199 --> 00:42:42,320 two when John Ashcroft announced that he was going to be treating this as a 539 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,679 hate crime, because they had no evidence of that. In fact, it 540 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,039 took them quite a while to realize that Lolly and Julie were in a same 541 00:42:49,079 --> 00:42:52,440 sex relationship, and again to prove that this was a hate crime, which 542 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,840 was a pretty political stunt. In my opinion, This is right in the 543 00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:01,239 wake of September eleventh, John Ashcroft and the DOOJA is under tremendous pressure to 544 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,320 show that they're going to be tough on hate crimes, which at that time 545 00:43:05,559 --> 00:43:12,239 we're escalating against Muslim Americans, people who looked like Muslim or Middle Eastern Americans. 546 00:43:12,639 --> 00:43:15,920 They were under a ton of pressure from various groups to show that they're 547 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,079 going to be willing to take action. In the spring of two thousand and 548 00:43:19,079 --> 00:43:22,800 two, they announced the indictment against Rice, and they announced that they would 549 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,480 be training it as a hate crime. What is very important here is the 550 00:43:25,519 --> 00:43:31,239 evidence that they use to substantiate that. After a very long interrogation, Darryl 551 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:37,760 Rice was returned to a holding cell where a jailhouse snitch was wearing a wire. 552 00:43:37,159 --> 00:43:42,119 And I have this transcript in which Daryl says, this is crap, 553 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,159 basically, and the snitch says, what do you mean? And Darryl says, 554 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:50,400 they keep trying to get me to say that I hate gay people, 555 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,519 and the snitches that's bullshit, and Daryl's like, that's right. And what 556 00:43:53,559 --> 00:43:59,719 they did is they clipped that recording so that it just said I hate gay 557 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:05,320 peace, and they used that to seek the death penalty against Daryl Rice when 558 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,559 it was clearly taken completely out of contact. So prior to that moment, 559 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,800 there was no evidence that Rice or anyone else even knew about Lolly and Julie's 560 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:19,400 sexuality. So again this is the flip flopping. We don't know if the 561 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:23,079 perpetrator knew Lolly and julie sexuality. We will probably never know that, but 562 00:44:23,199 --> 00:44:28,480 they from ninety six until two thousand and two it was not a hate crime, 563 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,519 and the perpetrator didn't know then. From two thousand and two, until 564 00:44:31,559 --> 00:44:37,920 twenty twenty four, definitely a hate crime. Definitely Daryl Rice and now all 565 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:42,400 of a sudden summer of twenty twenty four, definitely not a hate crime based 566 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,199 on what and why are you flip flopping without again giving us any reason for 567 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:51,280 these changes. I was shocked that they brought it up. There's so much 568 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:55,199 about this. This just doesn't pass the smell test here. They're not giving, 569 00:44:55,599 --> 00:45:00,199 not even close to complete information. It'd be one thing if they actually 570 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:05,960 sat members of the media down and took some pride in their work and showed 571 00:45:06,159 --> 00:45:10,800 us how they got to where they got to in terms of identifying Jackson. 572 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,480 There's some great work that went into this case, and there's probably some real 573 00:45:15,679 --> 00:45:22,440 aha moments from people whose names we will never know by not explaining their work, 574 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:29,519 especially given all the screw ups and all the wrong headed, waste of 575 00:45:29,679 --> 00:45:37,679 time approaches in this case, focusing on Rice and then refusing to even consider 576 00:45:37,199 --> 00:45:43,840 other alternative suspects, suddenly wanting to wrap this all up in a tight little 577 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:50,519 bow, this perfect little package. It just isn't working. This press conference 578 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:57,280 was woefully inadequate. If anything creates more questions than any answers that it would 579 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:01,039 have provided. And let's look at other recent cold cases, like high profile 580 00:46:01,079 --> 00:46:05,639 cold cases that have been solved. The folks at Parabon Nano has done some 581 00:46:05,679 --> 00:46:09,880 great work with all the genetic forensics. We've seen some high profile cases solved 582 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:15,760 where the investigators rightly stand up and proudly take credit for the work. And 583 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,000 yes, they should and we should all be really impressed, right, So 584 00:46:19,119 --> 00:46:22,079 I'm not bemoaning that. Think about a case like Dark Angelo, for instance, 585 00:46:22,119 --> 00:46:25,000 where they're like, look, here's what we did. We took his 586 00:46:25,119 --> 00:46:30,039 trash, we found a coffee cup, we took DNA from the coffee cup, 587 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,480 we loaded it to I don't know what it was, twenty three and 588 00:46:32,519 --> 00:46:37,360 meters or ancestry dot com or whatever, and we got this hit of his 589 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:42,639 aunt or in the case of the BTK killer right where all of a sudden 590 00:46:42,639 --> 00:46:45,960 they're like, look, we went in and we got the pat smear results 591 00:46:46,039 --> 00:46:52,840 of his daughter and used that. So they've been very clear about how they 592 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:57,280 did their work, because again, we don't want to interfere with investigations when 593 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,960 they're happening. Investigations need to be largely secret. That's fine. You don't 594 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,559 need to tell us what you're doing while you're doing it. But in a 595 00:47:04,639 --> 00:47:08,119 case like this, what are they losing by telling us how they did this 596 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:13,840 work? I would argue absolutely nothing. I would argue again, I'm super 597 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,480 curious why a private lab, Why did you need that? Again, what 598 00:47:16,559 --> 00:47:22,000 were you testing or retesting? And why is it not in the public's best 599 00:47:22,039 --> 00:47:25,440 interest to know? When I asked them through a foyer request to tell me 600 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:30,840 whether or not Mark A. Vonnitz's DNA has been loaded to COTIS, because 601 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:35,320 probably it hasn't been, I was told that it was not in the public's 602 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,360 best interest to know if a known serial killer's DNA was loaded to codis. 603 00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:44,320 How is that a defendable position? Yeah, which probably just means no, 604 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,199 they haven't loaded it and they don't want to admit it. Any kind of 605 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,920 non answer like that makes me go then you know the answer is no, 606 00:47:50,039 --> 00:47:53,599 you didn't load it. And are you looking at Jackson for instance? Alicia 607 00:47:53,639 --> 00:47:59,920 Showalter Reynolds very tragic murder? What about Anne McDaniels, what about Philmas Froggins, 608 00:48:00,039 --> 00:48:04,360 What about these other people who are about the spate of crimes? We 609 00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:08,760 may never know to what degree those are ongoing investigations or to what degree any 610 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:15,599 of these now known perpetrators are being compared to these other similar and contemporaneous crimes. 611 00:48:15,519 --> 00:48:20,239 We have so many more questions for Kayden, so much more to discussing, 612 00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:22,800 so many more opportunities for Bill to rail against the FBI, that we're 613 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:27,840 going to go ahead and continue this in a second episode for right now. 614 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,800 Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of mind Over Murder. 615 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:44,280 We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero 616 00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:50,280 and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 617 00:48:50,599 --> 00:48:54,719 Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 618 00:48:55,280 --> 00:49:00,840 Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space. Meetia Yeah. 619 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,880 You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also 620 00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,440 follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you 621 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:14,199 can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for 622 00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:15,840 listening to mind Over Murder.