1 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:37,840 Baska. What up? Everybody? Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul, 2 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,719 the podcast where I Paul abern At the answer. All of your pressing 3 00:00:40,799 --> 00:00:50,119 questions submitted through are free sponsored by Wicks Online Portal over at Paul Abernathy dot 4 00:00:50,119 --> 00:00:54,479 com, so check it out. Just go to Paul Abernathy dot com and 5 00:00:54,719 --> 00:00:57,799 you can submit your questions to me on the National Electrical Code. In fact, 6 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:02,960 that's a place that my fast Track students should be going to submit questions 7 00:01:03,039 --> 00:01:07,840 for the upcoming fast Tracks Live series. It's starting on June twenty eighth, 8 00:01:08,519 --> 00:01:12,280 and that's how they would send questions in to be answered on the show. 9 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:18,120 But you can do it too. Just like today's podcast, I am requested 10 00:01:18,159 --> 00:01:21,640 to answer many things and you can do all that over at Paul Abernathy dot 11 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:23,840 com. Pretty cheap, simple, free. You can't get better than free. 12 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,239 Right, all right, let's get into today's episode. Today's episode is 13 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:32,640 a little different because the episode was sent to me and they sent to me 14 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:38,120 a question and answer that was from I guess it's the NIKA Code question of 15 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:42,079 the day and I've seen these from time to time and they asked me if 16 00:01:42,079 --> 00:01:45,920 I would comment on it, so I'm gonna read the question and I'm also 17 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,319 going to read the answer, and again the answer comes from Nika. This 18 00:01:49,439 --> 00:01:55,760 used to be the old Charles Charlie Trout. Charlie passed away years ago, 19 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:00,480 so this is I'm not sure who's taken this over. But again, it's 20 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,480 been a great series for folks. It sends you a daily question of the 21 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,799 day. It's kind of like what we do here, but my questions are 22 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:14,000 specific to people that submit them into the system. So but it's a neat 23 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,759 platform. If you've never done it, today just search for Nika Question of 24 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,039 the Day and you can subscribe and they'll send you a question each day. 25 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,039 So what happened, I guess is a question kind of was answered or submitted 26 00:02:25,039 --> 00:02:30,280 by an individual, and one of our listeners saw it and said, you 27 00:02:30,319 --> 00:02:32,599 know, I don't necessarily know if I if I agree with the answer, 28 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:37,120 and would I be willing to comment on it? So I figured, you 29 00:02:37,159 --> 00:02:40,439 know, what the heck, I'd I'd go on and comment on it and 30 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:45,439 I'll give you my thoughts on it. So this episode, this question, 31 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:51,199 I believe if I'm looking, it's based on Tuesday, May sixteenth, twenty 32 00:02:51,199 --> 00:02:53,840 twenty three. So if you're looking this up over on the question of the 33 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:59,680 day over at NIKA. It's from Tuesday, May sixteenth, twenty twenty three, 34 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,319 and here's the question says, Hello, Charlie, we are seeing more 35 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:08,840 and more lighted mirrors being installed in dwelling unit bathrooms. There are a couple 36 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:14,639 of questions that come up when we install these units. Number one, would 37 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:21,599 a mirror light combo mounted on the wall over the bathroom counter required GFCI protection, 38 00:03:21,879 --> 00:03:25,240 Well, that one's easy. The answer is no. So the GFCI 39 00:03:25,319 --> 00:03:32,520 protection rule is specific to things like hydro massage therapy. The receptacles GFCI protection. 40 00:03:34,159 --> 00:03:38,039 The receptacle to serve the countertop within three feet of the top inside edge 41 00:03:38,039 --> 00:03:43,199 of the bowl. That's GFCI protected. Things like that, Right, any 42 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,439 receptacle that's in a bathroom GFCI protected. Okay, all of that to ten 43 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:52,400 dot eight, So that's okay. So if it's built in a mirror that 44 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:57,080 just has the lighting and all built into it, then no, there wouldn't 45 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,159 be there's no receptacle there. There wouldn't be any requirement unless worth the manufacturer's 46 00:04:00,159 --> 00:04:05,240 instructions dictated that. Thank that, Oh it has to be this, So 47 00:04:05,439 --> 00:04:11,400 generally no to that. So that's the first part. The second one says, 48 00:04:11,879 --> 00:04:16,480 if the mirror light combo also has factory installed receptacles built into it, 49 00:04:16,519 --> 00:04:23,120 does it require GFCR protection and is it required to be supplied by a twenty 50 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:30,759 amp separate circuit? Requiring required for bathroom and bathroom receptacles. Thanks in advance 51 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,279 for your input. And the gentleman's name was Ben Mellows. Okay, so 52 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:40,600 let me talk about that. So the the code's pretty clear that you have 53 00:04:40,639 --> 00:04:43,040 to have at least one twenty amp circuit and this isn't going to be the 54 00:04:43,079 --> 00:04:47,040 one that's going to supply the receptacle for serving the countertop. Okay, that's 55 00:04:47,079 --> 00:04:51,519 pretty straightforward. We have that rule and we don't have you know, that's 56 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:58,079 you know, not debated when it comes to that circuit. Right, So 57 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,600 now the question is could I have other receptacles in there? Absolutely, and 58 00:05:01,639 --> 00:05:04,079 do they need to be twenty amp as well? No, they don't. 59 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,399 You have to have at least one twenty am but nothing says that we couldn't 60 00:05:08,439 --> 00:05:14,040 have a day receptacle that's fifteen amps or some other receptacle for a specific need 61 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,959 at fifteen amps as long as we meet the twenty amp at least one, 62 00:05:17,319 --> 00:05:20,879 and that's the one that's going to serve the countertop. So that's already met. 63 00:05:20,959 --> 00:05:25,439 That rule is met, so any additional one doesn't have to be twenty 64 00:05:25,439 --> 00:05:30,639 ams. Now, if you're going to put that light, that light mirror 65 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,759 combo, that's essentially like a luminaire, so it would be on the branch 66 00:05:34,879 --> 00:05:39,279 circuit that's applying the lighting. Now, if you want to take your own 67 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,800 separate one there, that's fine, totally up to you for that. Now, 68 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:48,600 where the second part of this question gets into it says now it says 69 00:05:48,639 --> 00:05:56,879 if the mirror light combo has a factory installed receptacle built into it, does 70 00:05:56,879 --> 00:06:00,879 it required GFCR protection and is it required to be supply by the twenty amp 71 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:06,839 separate circuit required for bathrooms and bathroom receptacles like I read earlier. So in 72 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:13,399 that part of the question, the receptacle that's in there again does not need 73 00:06:13,439 --> 00:06:16,800 to be twenty AM okay, as long as you have the receptacles that are 74 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,959 required there to meet the requirements of two ten dot fifty two D. As 75 00:06:20,959 --> 00:06:27,279 long as they're all in there, okay, the all receptacles that are in 76 00:06:27,319 --> 00:06:32,759 a bathroom that are one twenty five through two fifty volt receptacles have to have 77 00:06:33,079 --> 00:06:39,680 GFCI protection period, end of story. So, whether I put a fifteen 78 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,519 AM receptacle in there, a twenty AM perceptacle in there, the required twenty 79 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,639 amp to serve the countertop within three feet of the basin, all of those, 80 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:54,279 if it's in the bathroom, it's got to be GFCI protected, point 81 00:06:54,319 --> 00:06:59,079 blank. Now. The only exception to this rule in two ten dot eight 82 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,519 A is where you have one of the exceptions. And I'm looking at the 83 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,600 twenty twenty three, okay, because I'm kind of moving forward. In the 84 00:07:05,639 --> 00:07:11,839 twenty twenty three, you have an exception in here that says exception number four. 85 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:17,800 It says factory installed receptacles that are not readily accessible and are mounted internally 86 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:25,560 to bathroom exhaust fan assemblies shall not be required, shall not require GFCI protection 87 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:30,279 unless required by the installation instructions or the listing. That makes sense, right, 88 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:35,959 So in this case, if I have a lighted mirror and it has 89 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:42,240 built in receptacles, now those receptacles aren't going to serve the countertop, right 90 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,240 Those are just in addition, they come with the luminaire, which is a 91 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,920 mirror with the luminaire built into it that comes with it. The exception that 92 00:07:49,959 --> 00:07:54,959 we read doesn't apply because we're not talking about a bathroom exhaust fan, right, 93 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,920 So it's built in, but it's still a receptacle and still could have 94 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:05,120 stuff plugged into it, right, Okay. So if that's the case, 95 00:08:05,279 --> 00:08:09,800 and you go look at two ten dot eight, and those are the ground 96 00:08:09,839 --> 00:08:16,680 fault circuit interrupter protection for personnel rules. It states a dwelling units. It 97 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,800 says all one hundred and twenty five volt through two fifty volt receptacles installed in 98 00:08:20,879 --> 00:08:26,040 the following locations and supplied by single phase brand circuits rated on or fifty volts 99 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:31,120 are less to ground, which it will be one twenty shall have ground fault 100 00:08:31,159 --> 00:08:37,320 circuit interrupter protection for personnel. And the number one on the list is bathrooms. 101 00:08:37,879 --> 00:08:41,600 Period. So if the receptacle, even though it's built into the mirror, 102 00:08:43,279 --> 00:08:46,759 it's still going to be a one twenty voult through two fifty volt receptacle, 103 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,000 it's still going to be rated one hundred and fifty volts less to ground. 104 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,720 It's still in the bathroom, it's still going to be used it would 105 00:08:54,799 --> 00:09:01,799 not want anybody telling me that it doesn't require GFC oppertuection. Now you say, 106 00:09:01,799 --> 00:09:03,559 well, it's built into the mirror. How would I do that? 107 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:05,799 Well, y'all know how you would do that. You put a GFCI breaker 108 00:09:05,799 --> 00:09:09,399 in the panel, you protect everything downstream. It's not that part's not brain 109 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:16,039 surgery. Now let me read you the answer that was given, Okay, 110 00:09:16,639 --> 00:09:20,759 and the reason I didn't elaborate on things like the shower space and bad because 111 00:09:20,799 --> 00:09:24,759 typically that's not going to come into play because it's the mirror over the sink. 112 00:09:24,159 --> 00:09:28,000 Okay, But anyway, let me read you the answer that was given 113 00:09:28,039 --> 00:09:33,080 by the NIKA. And again not to disparage Nika, I'm just, I'm 114 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,799 just it was I was asked to follow up on this. The answer that 115 00:09:35,919 --> 00:09:41,639 was given was high ben good question. The ANC would not require GFCI protections 116 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:46,759 for a light mirror combination unit. That is correct at that point. However, 117 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,559 if the light mirror unit can't extend into the tub or shower space as 118 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,399 defined in four ten ten D, that it must be marked as suitable for 119 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,919 wet and damp locations. And if the subject of if it's of the sub 120 00:10:00,279 --> 00:10:03,639 two shower spray. It must be suitable for wet locations. Now, I 121 00:10:03,639 --> 00:10:05,559 didn't even go into that, because again, what mirror would you put over 122 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,039 your sink that's going to be subject to that? I mean, be real, 123 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:11,840 I can promise you the lights that you put over your vanity aren't rated 124 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:16,600 for a wet location. Okay, right, anyway, but that's kind of 125 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,080 went where. I don't know why it went there, but anyway, I 126 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:24,200 guess it's covering all bases. It also says if the light mirror unit also 127 00:10:24,399 --> 00:10:30,679 has a factory install receptacle, it would could not be used to comply with 128 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:35,519 the bathroom receptacle requirements found in section two ten fifty two D. It required 129 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:39,600 GFCR protection in accordance with two ten dot AA, it would not be required 130 00:10:39,639 --> 00:10:46,679 to be on a twenty amp circuit as as section two ten to fifty two 131 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:52,440 one. Okay, all right, so I get all that they're talking more 132 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:58,480 about the spacing in two ten to fifty two. The I've already covered the 133 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,000 fact that it's as long as you have the one that's required to be done. 134 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,879 And also to remember, during rough end, none of that stuff's there 135 00:11:05,039 --> 00:11:09,919 practically, although some of them might have a rough end kit. You're still 136 00:11:09,919 --> 00:11:13,919 going to have to establish your minimum of one twenty brand circuit within three feet 137 00:11:13,919 --> 00:11:16,720 of the basin. The twenty amp one for the basin, you gotta have 138 00:11:16,799 --> 00:11:22,279 that. This is an additional so these receptacles, it doesn't have to be 139 00:11:22,279 --> 00:11:26,200 twenty It could be a fifteen amp circuit. But I think what's lacking here 140 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,600 is the fact that it is still a receptacle. It'll still have something plugged 141 00:11:31,639 --> 00:11:35,960 into it, and it's still in the bathroom, and it is definitely going 142 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,720 to be at the SINC location. And the whole intent here is if you 143 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:46,200 look at two ten dot AA that it says number one item says bathrooms. 144 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,360 So if it's a receptacle factory installed or not, if it is in the 145 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,720 bathroom, then it is going to have to have GFCI protection on it. 146 00:11:54,759 --> 00:11:56,759 So in this case, you're going to do it back at the panel. 147 00:11:58,279 --> 00:12:01,480 Okay, all right, hopefully that answered your question on that one. Again, 148 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,440 I don't necessarily one hundred percent agree with the with the NIKA response to 149 00:12:05,519 --> 00:12:11,039 that one, and probably went off on some tangents that it didn't need it 150 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,440 to go down when it comes to the you know about the wet and dry 151 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:20,639 location application. I hardly think that's an issue. But the recept But but 152 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:26,519 the lack of the fact that it's said nothing about the actual receptacle that is 153 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,159 inside of a bathroom, which somebody can openly go and plug in a razor 154 00:12:30,279 --> 00:12:33,679 or plug something into it. That's the whole point of our GFCI protection, 155 00:12:35,399 --> 00:12:41,559 right. So really it wasn't covered well in the answers, so I guess 156 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:43,279 that's why the individuals submitted it to me. So, yes, sir, 157 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,639 it can be on a fifteen or twenty, doesn't matter when it comes to 158 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:52,720 the mirror light combo. If it does have integral receptacles, then yes, 159 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,919 they don't meet the spacing requirement. Probably you have to look at the rules 160 00:12:56,919 --> 00:13:03,000 in two ten fifty two to see whether or not it's another type receptacle. 161 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,840 But at the end of the day, you're gonna put your receptacles in and 162 00:13:05,879 --> 00:13:09,679 meet the requirements at two ten dot eleven, and so you're gonna put your 163 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:15,440 receptacles in a receptacle within three feet an outlet, within three feet of the 164 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:22,720 basin. But these receptacles that are located integral to the light mirror combo are 165 00:13:22,759 --> 00:13:26,320 most certainly inside of that bathroom, they most certainly, in my opinion, 166 00:13:26,399 --> 00:13:33,559 and two ten eight a one would require GFCI protection. And I don't see 167 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,720 anything in any of the exceptions, even the four of them that were in 168 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:43,440 the twenty twenty three. I don't see anything in there that would exempt me 169 00:13:43,519 --> 00:13:48,240 from that protection, because that's what it's there for, to protect US personnel 170 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,840 persons. Okay, all right, So that's my take on that Nico question. 171 00:13:52,879 --> 00:13:54,320 If you want to read the question yourself, and you maybe even reply 172 00:13:54,399 --> 00:14:01,600 to Charlie or whoever's doing them for Charlie, it is sixteenth, twenty twenty 173 00:14:01,639 --> 00:14:05,440 three when that question came out, and all you gotta do is go over 174 00:14:05,519 --> 00:14:09,279 to and you search for Nika Question of the Day and you'll find it. 175 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,159 Go to the archives and look up that day and you'll see the question again. 176 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,399 It's May sixteenth, twenty twenty three. If you want to do a 177 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,480 follow up to it, to Charlie and them, ask them that question and 178 00:14:18,799 --> 00:14:22,240 see what they say. But still a great amazing resource, and they do 179 00:14:22,279 --> 00:14:26,840 a wonderful job over there, Nika and bringing these questions out every day. 180 00:14:26,919 --> 00:14:30,320 Again, everybody's got an opinion. That's just how I see it. You 181 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,279 may see it differently, but that's the beautiful thing about the code. Until 182 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,759 next time, folks, stay safe, God bless. And again, if 183 00:14:35,799 --> 00:14:39,840 you want to get your questions answered or you want my opinion on something, 184 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,679 just go to Paul Abernathy dot com and submit it that way. That's the 185 00:14:43,799 --> 00:14:46,600 easiest way to get questions to me. Till next time, folks, Stay 186 00:14:46,600 --> 00:15:16,159 safe, God bless. Both both asked open ask booth, Open bo