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What is krack alac in Fellows Thermonuclear
a Efforts. I am Dan Pavalley coming

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at you with my certified fantabulous co
host, the demolition Man himself, mister

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Grant Hughes. We are here to
wrap up the NBA Finals, Nuggets Heat

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Yokich Murray, the futures of both
teams. We're gonna get into maybe some

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offseason stuff. If we don't decide
to make that a separate episode, it

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will be a very much in the
moment decision. So you're here for the

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unpredictability of Hardwood Knocks. Before we
can eball in, though, just a

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reminder, please support the show by
subscribing wherever you've consumed us. If this

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00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,600
is your first time, subscribe on
Apple Spotify, subscribe on YouTube, comment

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like help the algorithm on our videos, love us back. We post shorts

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and clips across TikTok and Instagram and
YouTube that are germane just to those mediums.

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They're not on the podcast, so
following along there as well. Our

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social handles are in the podcast description
and on your screen. Join our discord.

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The link to that is in the
podcast description. I believe that's all.

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Oh, so, if you want
to support the show, especially because

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we just don't have any advertisers anymore. Apparently merch. Look at that cup

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by Grant feel like caffeine, No
dip threes and hardwood knocks right right,

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He's ready. He's already on the
Grady Dick train, then no dep threes

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or the Nicholas Patuone tray Nerklay Thompson
train. We have shirts too, I'm

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wearing one of them sweatshirts. Whatever
stickers the link that is in the podcast

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and YouTube description. I should probably
promote the link on Twitter at some point,

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and maybe, like in our YouTube
community thing, I'll do that eventually.

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Thank you to everyone who has purchased
something, and feel free to send

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us pictures of you in the merch
or just of the merch once you get

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them. I think that's actually it. And so I get to the question

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that everyone's dying to know the answer
to, Grant, how are you doing?

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I'm doing very well. Thank you. Just to clear up, I

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am not Sylvester Salon from but I
said nineteen ninety four when we talked off

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air, But I think that feels
about right for when Demolition Man came out.

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It's because I'm tearing up my kitchen. My wife and I are changing

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it out, so we're doing it
ourselves and it requires a lot of sledgehammering,

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and so far, so good.
Nobody has set a fire or been

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electrocute. That's not true. My
wife got electrocuted twice, but it was

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like minor electrocution, so it was
shook it off, shook it off.

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It was fine. I'm not a
batter husband. Moment right now that you're

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thinking, well, no one got
electrocuted except for my wife who got electrocuted

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twice, I was trying to decide, like, it's not like, you

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know, nobody's hair was standing up, like I couldn't see the outline of

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her skeleton, like through her skin, which is how I understand electrocution works

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based on cartoons. So I was
gonna leave it out, but I wanted

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to be a completest about the pitfall
so far of kitchen demolition. I will

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say this, and I've told you
off fair. I am in finitely impressed

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that you two are undertaking the remodeling
of your own kitchen. That's I had

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sheer anxiety for you so much as
I checked in to see how it was

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going. Over the weekend. No
no ulterior agenda, like you're still alive?

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How many times did your wife get
electric cut? Yeah? No,

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so far, so good. But
you I forget you said people are here

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for the unpredictability, and that has
the word predictable in it, and you

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made an all timer of a prediction. I'm gonna gas you up right now

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because the Denver Nuggets won the National
Basketball Association championship, which is a big

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deal, especially for listeners of this
podcast. They care about that sort of

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thing, and you not only called
it from the preseason, they were your

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preseason title pick, which I don't
know have you looked to see how like

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how frequent you know that was the
pick by you know wherever you're you know,

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expert. What am I trying to
say, where all the experts were

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like compiled and like who picked who? Like I don't think that was a

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common pick, and you picked it
in five when we previewed the series,

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So just kudos to you. Yeah, So I don't know how many like

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media members picked them. I think
I saw people yesterday say that a bunch

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of the Ringer people picked the Nuggets, which if a bunch of people from

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one outlet picked the Nuggets. Kudos
to them, and I'm sure there were

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I saw some Nuggets media members picked
them too, and that's I don't dismiss

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that you called it, but I
dismiss it when the meal, when the

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team of media picket. But I
don't think it was a very popular one.

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I would hazard that. I don't
know that Miami was a popular one.

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But I wonder if Miami, because
they were coming off a conference finals

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appearance, if they were a more
popular title pick preseason once the season got

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underway, if you were picking the
Heat over the Nuggets, I don't know

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what the fuck was wrong with you, but I wonder if they were the

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more popular title pick. I did
tell you though it was it was I

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thought it would be more satisfying getting
it right because this, like, I

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don't know, I'd have to go
back. We've been covering the league basically

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since twenty eleven. I don't know
if I've gotten any non kd Era Warriors

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preseason title pick right. I came
close with the Suns in twenty twenty one.

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I thought it'd be more satisfying than
it's just being in like the minority.

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But you were correct, and it
was just afterwards, I couldn't even

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bring myself. I did one victory
lap on Twitter. I posted a meme

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of like, you know, crying
Jamal Murray and I said, this is

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me after getting a preseason title pick, right, But thank you. I

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appreciate it. I'm glad. I
like being correct. But it was just

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I was, you know, I
texted you and I was like, are

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you rude? Like do you think
there's gonna be a Game six? And

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we were both just kind of in
unanimous agreement that there wasn't going to be.

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And I think what was most impressive
to actually get into like sort of

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a series wrap up and how far
the Nuggets have come, not just over

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the years but this season. That
was for so much of that game that

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was maybe one of their worst offensive
performances of the of the playoffs. They

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and look credit to the Heats defense, Like the Nuggets for the first you

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know, two and a half quarters
were missing wide open threes their shot quality.

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I haven't looked at the specifics,
but I had the exact same thought.

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I even was thinking, the Nuggets
are up like twenty five in this

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game if they shoot, if they're
like sort of hot, and it's like

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fifteen at a minimum, if they
just make the shots you would expect them

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to make. So it was a
weird. It was a weird game.

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Like it was, They're at nine
of nineteen at the line at one point.

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Oh that was the other thing.
Yeah, if they made their if

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they made free throws at a reasonable
rate and hit you know, forty percent

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of their threes, which based on
their shot that is not an unrealistic,

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you know, expectation. This might
have been done in the third quarter,

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you know. And I think what
was most impressive about that though when I

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tweeted this is through that entire rut, they still just felt inevitable. I

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was like, they're gonna win this
game. I was watching. I was

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watching it with a friend, and
I was just like, they're they're gonna

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win. I was like, they're
down by like eight or whatever is now

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seven. I was like, they're
They're just going to win. That's how

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this team feels right now. And
I think, I don't know how you

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feel about this. And I felt
this way after a Yannis one, and

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I don't think he got it as
much as Yokis did, mostly because he

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wasn't working off back to back MVPs. At that time. But to see

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a star dispel just so many ill
thought flat out wrong notions about him,

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and even Jamal Murray did this to
some extent too as well, Michael Porter

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Junior, when you look at his
rebounding and defense, like not really doing

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much as a scorer and shooter.
This whole team kind of did it,

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and that was really fun to see
an experience because it's like there's no there's

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no argument, and like there's no
Oh, can you win? You just

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did? You won? Go figure? You can win a title with Nicole

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Yokis is your best player? Oh? Go figure. The Denver Nuggets are

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are actual threats, and I think
I didn't see too much of it.

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We'll in nevitably get to the people
talking about we'll look at the seeds that

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they beat in YadA, YadA,
YadA, shut up, Like I mean,

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the Lakers won seventy percent of their
games basically after the trade deadline.

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The son ted Kevin freaking Durant,
like this was not an easy path.

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There's no championship is easy, and
you know what the Nuggets are. You

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don't get to have it both ways
either. Not this, I feel like

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I'm arguing against nobody at this point, because I hope nobody's making this argument.

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But Yokich was criticized because he didn't
win the previous he didn't win the

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previous two years, but they weren't
at full strength, and now they're at

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full strength and they win. But
it's well, look look at how easy

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it was for them. Again,
it's like, we gotta stop, and

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now it does stop. And I
didn't see much of it in the aftermath.

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I saw some of it today probably
you know, rage bait for engagement,

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which whatever, that's how the sausage
is made. Now apparently it was

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just it's really I'm thrilled for the
fans. I'm excited for them the most,

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but I just man so cool to
see an entire again, the Yokich

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being able to dispel this stuff.
And then also we have to get into

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like what he said post game was
great too, but the entire team just

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kind of dispelling this notion that they
weren't built to win at this level and

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doing it in such they lost four
games. They lost four games. That's

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the thing, like you could,
I agree, I hate because it's inevitable

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and it already has happened a little
bit you've seen the just just being slightly

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dismissive of the path they had to
go through or whatever, Like I'm not

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interested in that in any circumstance,
because winning a title is like incredibly difficult.

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But like the flip of that is
they made it look easy, like

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it may not have actually been easy, like they are just they were just

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dominant. So I think I would
add to what you said, like I

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like the sort of clarifying effect of
this title, like what it does for

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how we look at We've talked about
this a little bit before, how we

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look at not just Yoki's, not
just Murray Porter, the Nuggets the last

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like handful of years, because it
just makes it clear now that the Nuggets

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at full strength should be viewed as
the team to beat, right like and

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that maybe should have been the case
all along. And Yokich is the best

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player in the world, and Murray
absolutely can be a one A or a

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one bat or whatever however you break
that down. And like the Porter contract

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was a good contract now like by
definition because he mattered and won you a

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title. Just all these all these
little uncertainties that we had the whole like

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this job and covering this league,
and the league itself is just nothing but

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uncertainties and unpredictable things and like it
could go this way or that way.

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Everything we'll talk about today, like
we'll talk about the Suns and Chris Paul

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and like this ridiculous like complex decision
tree of things out there and you know

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this might happen or that might happen. The Nuggets want it. Yokich was

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the reason they want it. They
just like it clarifies the last several seasons

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and it's like, now we can
look at this chunk of the you know,

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of NBA history and say, like
we know who the team is,

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we know who the guy is,
and we know that the Nuggets like did

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all this stuff right, and it's
just it's it's like psychologically feels good because

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we have some certainty now and I
enjoy that very much. Yeah, and

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they're just like the postgame the Murray
and this doesn't happen to me too much

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now, like I am be detached
from the outcome of things, even if

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00:11:01,639 --> 00:11:07,320
I like am tweeting like in hyperbole. Jamal Murray's reaction to winning just absolutely

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sent me just because he goes through
all that acl stuff. We know the

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history of like how his dad trained
him growing up, which was I think

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the kindest way to put it was
a maniacal years. Yeah. And and

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then like to kind of juxtapose that
against Yokich, who's upset that the parades

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on Thursday because he's trying to get
home for horse races on Sunday. It's

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00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,960
just like this team is just so
fun and likable, and the thing that

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typified them the most, Yokich is
getting his Finals MVP Award, MPJ and

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00:11:39,039 --> 00:11:45,159
Jamal Murray look legitimately ecstatic, and
they're clearly more excited for Yokich than Yokich

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is for himself, which is just
so cool. And I think my bigger

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takeaway from this, and I actually
don't even know if it's a takeaway,

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but what makes this special? And
I saw some people frame it as getting

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lucky. There's so if you need
to frame it like that, I feel

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fine, Like you need so much
sluck involved. They gave this organization and

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this core time where I think a
lot of other organizations would not have done

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the same. And you can say
they had built in excuses, particularly the

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past two years, organizations still don't
give you that amount, like the fact

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that Michael Malone. This is year
eight for him in Denver. Right that

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he is still there. That is
special, that is unique, and they

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clearly had something there that was worth
grooming, building upon and to be able

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00:12:28,159 --> 00:12:31,399
to identify that and recognize that,
Hey, we don't need necessarily a new

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voice. We don't need these major
shakeups with coaching. We don't need to,

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you know. Jamal Murray, I
think said this to Stan Cronky afterwards,

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00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:41,399
and he said it before he thought
the Nuggets were going to trade him

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while he was injured, and it's
not. Yeah, they made moves.

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They went and got Aaron Gordon.
They made the decision to move Will Barton

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and Gary Harris and monteg Morris at
some point. But to keep you know,

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they did reinvest in the core through
contracts. That Aaron Gordon trade was

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big. The KCP trade was a
duel, like hey, cutting taxes,

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00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,559
but like this also makes a lot
of sense. Getting Bruce Brown free agency

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was I mean, I still can't
believe the market and get him more than

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00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,639
the mini mammally this past year or
neither here and were there though, But

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seldom do you see a core that, even with injuries, that hasn't won

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at this level, get this amount
of time, and I'm sure getting to

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the conference finals in the bubble maybe
certainly helped the team believe in itself,

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like to hey, we don't need
to go this nuclear route. But it's

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super cool to see that patience and
that entire not just payoff, but to

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actually see that entire journey happen.
Because title windows, I feel like,

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are getting smaller and smaller and smaller
and smaller, and this is it wasn't

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even necessarily it wasn't a title window
the whole time. But like, this

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core has been together for so long
and the Nuggets never viewed it as stale.

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Maybe that's a conversation that might happened
if they flamed out and this year's

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playoffs, but they didn't, so
they don't have to have it. And

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so I thought it was to use
the word super cool again to see a

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team stick with its base priuiples for
that long through I would argue many situations,

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eliminations and setbacks that other teams would
have just pulled the rip cord on.

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Yeah, it's really hard to know. The injuries to Murray and Porter.

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Last was it last year that Porter
played just the nine games or the

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year before, I can't remember either
way, It's really interesting to sort of

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try to build the alternative scenario where
those guys are healthy and then the Nuggets

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you know, go as far as
they go and probably don't win a title.

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Maybe they do, but I do
think the injuries provided like maybe cover

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is too strong a word, but
it sort of was sort of incentivized patients

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because in either of their cases,
like I don't know that you could have

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traded those two guys Murray and and
MPJ for great value, and it made

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sense to sort of, well,
let's wait and see what we have with

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these guys as opposed to you know, some of the more impatient moves you

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might get had the Nuggets done the
normal thing where you know, oh,

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they advanced to the second round and
then the third round and then and then

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and then they win. You know. Those are the teams like the Celtics

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are a good example of that where
it's like we're asking all these quess I

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don't think we are, but all
these questions are being asked to them because

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they keep you know, they're fairly
young, and they keep making it to

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a certain level and they're just you
know, not getting there all the way

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and then suddenly it's like, well, do we blow this up? You

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know, if if Jalen Brown had
been injured for this entire postseason or something,

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then it would you'd just be like, well, no, that's we

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run it back and we see what
we have. It's interesting that the injuries,

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while like obviously terrible for the guys
that endured them, might be part

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of the reason that the Nuggets did
sort of, you know, stay the

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course with this roster a couple unless
you have anything to add to that,

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00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,320
there were a couple of good questions. Now, do you want to answer

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this blown question in the chat?
Who do you think ranks higher all Ti,

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Yannis or Yokich? Do we need
to have that discussion? It's a

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00:15:48,039 --> 00:15:52,279
hard discussion. That's why I wanted
to see what you'd say. And look,

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00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,399
Jannis has two titles or no he
doesn't have They both have two MVPs,

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they both have a title. Look, I think I'm not ready to

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have this discussion. Do you have
a pick right now? I think prisoner

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of the Moment makes me think that
if I had to guess who's going to

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finish higher all time, I kind
of think it might be Yoki. Yeah

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at this point, but that feels
very prisoner, might be very prisoner of

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the moment, extremely prisoner of the
moment, but I kind of agree.

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Like, for the longest time,
the answer to the question, which is

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a stand in for who's the best
player in the world, was you're starting

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a team today and you need to
go through a regular season in the playoffs,

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who's your first pick? And it
was honest for me for a long

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00:16:26,039 --> 00:16:30,639
time. But I think now you
have to say because you don't have the

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defensive questions anymore, or at least
like you've seen it work with Yokich,

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and that was like the biggest uncertainty. I think it's probably Yokich now,

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But again with like a dollop of
this is prisoner at the moment, thinking

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that we're both engaging in right now. Stephan Story said yokis he had less

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help and more WS and way less
help and better results. I mean,

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does that kind of discredit how good
the Nugget supporting cast is right now?

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I was asked I went on a
DNVR Serbian Corner show and they asked me

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if this is one of the greatest
championship supporting casts in league history and I

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just I mean, maybe that's like
too tougher question of parts, but look

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at what Jamal Murray was during the
playoffs for much of the postseason. This

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is I mean, he has to
be the best player in the league right

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now that hasn't made an All Star
Game for sure because we had Fox and

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SGA both make it this year.
So and Michael Porter Junior is just Stephan

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says over the last five years.
Yeah, I mean sure, it's certainly

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debate now and it's Yokich has been
people who are uncomfortable with him maybe winning

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a third MVP award said, well, it's just gonna look weird when you

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go back and you see the all
time greats Now, it looks weird that

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he didn't. He looks weird the
other way. I won't. I won't

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strip that away from Joel Embiid because
I we get into that discussion where you

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00:17:44,839 --> 00:17:48,279
see one player win a title who
finished runner up, Like we could go

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00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,599
back through history and start yanking MVPs
away from a bunch of people. But

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00:17:52,079 --> 00:17:55,759
Yokich is an all time great and
that's just got to be an arguable at

278
00:17:55,839 --> 00:17:59,880
this point. And what I what
I like, I don't want to talk

279
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about get too much into the future
with them. Bruce Brown's free agency is

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going to be fascinating because he's going
to get more money than they can offer.

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And they could go the route of
you know what Patom did in LA

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or Jackson did in LA, where
if you signed for less, they'll give

283
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you a bigger deal with you early
bird rights. That was different for both

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those guys because they were still Patom
was impactful and so was Jackson. They

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00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,119
were on the downswing of their careers, and they had gotten paid. Bruce

286
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,319
Brown has never been cap slock paid. But the Nuggets are clearly like,

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when's the last time you saw a
team in the finals pull off a trade

288
00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,000
in the final? So they sent
a twenty twenty nine first to Okay,

289
00:18:37,039 --> 00:18:41,279
see an exchange for a twenty twenty
three second, a twenty twenty four first

290
00:18:41,519 --> 00:18:44,359
at a twenty twenty four second.
I still don't know what the protections are

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on their twenty twenty nine first.
I would guess it's at least top five.

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They're looking at the landscape right now
and they're seeing Okay, that's second.

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Apron makes it incredibly difficult, if
only because maybe you were never going

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to broach it, but if you
get close enough to it, you're not

295
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,559
gonna be able to spend the entire
mini mid level exception. And because they

296
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,519
hit on Christian Brown, who Holy
crap, by the way, Christian Brown

297
00:19:07,759 --> 00:19:10,640
like turn into he was a big
zone buster for them, like in game

298
00:19:10,799 --> 00:19:15,720
was a Game four the defense not
on Jimmy Butler like being switched on to

299
00:19:15,799 --> 00:19:19,400
Bam at points and just holding his
own. They're confident in their process and

300
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,799
their ability to find guys on the
cheap, and they want to make sure

301
00:19:22,839 --> 00:19:26,279
that they have capable bodies to field
within this window. I always get a

302
00:19:26,319 --> 00:19:30,640
little cringey when I see a twenty
twenty nine first or first that far off

303
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,160
into the distance get dealt in a
non star trade. But I'm just no,

304
00:19:33,559 --> 00:19:37,400
you did the right thing here because
you want to maximize this window.

305
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,559
I know for a fact the organization
is. And to be fair, they

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00:19:41,559 --> 00:19:44,440
were this way about Zeke Nagy preseason, and he I know he get with

307
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,240
injuries, but he kind of became
an after thought. They are so high

308
00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,640
on Peyton Watson and so I'm curious
to see whether we see more of him

309
00:19:49,799 --> 00:19:53,880
neck or a bunch more of him
next season. I like the fact that

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they're thinking this way because and this
is the title that we have for this.

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00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,119
I do think the way that the
new collective bargaining agreement is set up

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00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,319
and the current parody in the league
is it runs counter to the idea of

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00:20:07,319 --> 00:20:10,559
can there be a dynasty or can
there be this team that will run things

314
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,319
win back to back titles, three
titles in four or five years. Do

315
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,359
you think the Nuggets, with what
they have in place, are built to

316
00:20:21,039 --> 00:20:26,640
enter that or defy that conversation,
to enter that realm of oh, there

317
00:20:26,799 --> 00:20:30,720
you already mentioned there's a team to
beat, but like their favorites to win

318
00:20:30,759 --> 00:20:33,160
next season, as they should be, by the way, like they should

319
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,839
absolutely be the favorites to win next
season. But just this is so sustainable

320
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,400
that we could be looking at the
first of if you want to use the

321
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:47,279
word many or fut I do.
And I'd start up by saying, you

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00:20:47,319 --> 00:20:49,680
know, the rules about how you
can build a team in the NBA have

323
00:20:49,839 --> 00:20:55,680
changed several times over the years,
right like go going back to there,

324
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:57,599
you didn't even used to be free
agency, like you know, decades ago

325
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:04,079
and so, and we've still had
dynasties throughout So I think the idea that

326
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,720
this set of rule changes to the
CBA makes it harder to build a dynasty

327
00:21:08,839 --> 00:21:12,039
is kind of it's half right,
because it's all it means is it's gonna

328
00:21:12,039 --> 00:21:15,279
be harder to build a dynasty the
way that you built one over the last

329
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:21,799
like eight ten years. It's still
doable, and teams always find a way

330
00:21:21,839 --> 00:21:25,519
because whatever the rules are, it
still comes down to do you have the

331
00:21:25,559 --> 00:21:29,000
best player or like a guy that
is very much in that conversation and enough

332
00:21:29,039 --> 00:21:30,880
around him. So it just changed
how you go about doing that and how

333
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:37,079
you keep it together. But with
respect to the Nuggets in particular, I

334
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:41,880
do think I want to be careful
about again more prisoner of the moment stuff.

335
00:21:41,319 --> 00:21:45,400
But there was a stretch in the
third quarter I think it was the

336
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,680
third quarter of Game four where Yokits
was in foul trouble and he was out

337
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:56,039
and he went out with a ten
point lead, and it was that that

338
00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,519
stretch and he comes back in after
like five and a half minutes and up

339
00:22:00,599 --> 00:22:04,519
nine, and it was because KCP
had like a strip steal that led to

340
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:10,279
a Murray breakout for a Gordon layup
or a Brown layup, and they hit

341
00:22:10,319 --> 00:22:12,200
a couple corner threes and like the
defense was there and they scrapped, and

342
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:17,880
like there's this additional it's not just
Yokich lifting all these guys. Like maybe

343
00:22:18,079 --> 00:22:22,839
that's the reason all these supporting players
who everybody but Brown that matters is under

344
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,799
contract to your point for multiple years. It's not just that, like they

345
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,839
turn into something different with him out
there. Like obviously having Yokich is the

346
00:22:32,839 --> 00:22:37,559
most important ingredient to a potential dynasty, but all these other guys have proven

347
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,559
now that they're more than just beneficiaries
of Yokis, Like they believe that they

348
00:22:41,599 --> 00:22:45,480
can you know, win finals minutes
or not dramatically lose them, which was

349
00:22:45,519 --> 00:22:49,400
not the case really for Yoki's entire
career. They just still get killed when

350
00:22:49,599 --> 00:22:52,319
with him off the floor. So
if the factor that in, But I

351
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:57,400
just think they have the financial set
up for this to work for at least

352
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:02,119
another three four years. Uh,
they have the best player in the league

353
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,920
and they have I mean, honestly, like the ambition. It's because like

354
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,359
what the first thing Mike Malone said
was we're not satisfied, and then like

355
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,480
all you know, that's and that's
weird that that that's that's parade talk,

356
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:21,839
you know, that's not We're on
the podium accepting the trophy. So and

357
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,880
then you look at the landscape around
the league, like who who is the

358
00:23:25,519 --> 00:23:29,400
who would you nominate as? And
this is obviously like, you know,

359
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,480
impossible, But I'm not sure I
see another team that I feel as comfortable

360
00:23:33,519 --> 00:23:37,680
about returning at like the same level
or I just you know, we started

361
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,720
the season with the Bucks and it
was like, no notes, right,

362
00:23:40,759 --> 00:23:42,599
we don't have any questions, Like
now we have questions. I feel like

363
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:47,079
right now, in the wake of
this title, I don't have any questions

364
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,440
about the Nuggets other than how do
you make the Bruce Brown thing work,

365
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:55,119
which like in the grand scheme of
you know, championship roster building, Yeah,

366
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,319
he's super important, but it's not
like you're facing Jamal Murray's unrestricted free

367
00:23:59,319 --> 00:24:03,759
agency or like this extension that's due
this critical player like you know, Jalen

368
00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:07,000
Brown with the Celtics as an example. So yeah, I think I think

369
00:24:07,759 --> 00:24:11,359
they very much look like a team
that could win more titles over the next

370
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,359
you know, three, four or
five years for sure. But I would

371
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,480
give them better odds than anybody else
if that if that's like the best cop

372
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,279
out answer. No, it's not
even a cop out. And I think

373
00:24:19,319 --> 00:24:23,400
what also helps is that, I
mean, winning kind of heals this to

374
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,200
begin with. But there's gonna be
no agitation at least you wouldn't think.

375
00:24:27,279 --> 00:24:30,200
I guess you could get to a
point where, you know, does Jamal

376
00:24:30,279 --> 00:24:33,920
Murray or Michael Porter Junior want a
different type of role, But just the

377
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,960
evolution of Michael Porter Junior's mindset on
the court over the past few years,

378
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:42,640
this is like a team that's very
together and you're not gonna worry about anyone

379
00:24:44,039 --> 00:24:48,119
asking for out. It's like Jannis
in Milwaukee, except the difference is the

380
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,920
core is not aging, like not
pass their prot or getting closer to the

381
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,279
end of their heyday. Let's say
around him, like Nicole Yokitch himself,

382
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,440
it'll be his age twenty eight season
next year, ditto for Aaron Dan Bruce

383
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,880
Brown. By the way, that
this was only the age twenty sixth season,

384
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,720
it feels like he's been around for
a few minutes, but he's you

385
00:25:06,759 --> 00:25:10,160
know, next year of these age
twenty sevent season, Murray next years his

386
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,200
age twenty sixth season, Michael Porter
Jr. Next year his age twenty five

387
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,000
season, it's like, this is
still you know, they're not they have

388
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:23,119
experience now and they're just set up
like to endure and just have this prolonged

389
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,680
title window, and so it's yeah, dynasty might be an inflammatory word,

390
00:25:27,079 --> 00:25:30,240
but I think you kind of summed
it up best where it's, well,

391
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,960
what other team in the league are
you actually trusting to be around this long?

392
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,200
I think the closest I would come
to, and I would put the

393
00:25:38,279 --> 00:25:41,480
Nuggets above them, but I think
it's just Boston because of the way they're

394
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,000
set up, and even you kind
of sense just some unease there. I

395
00:25:45,039 --> 00:25:49,160
don't know if that's manufactured by the
media, and just like fan consternation more

396
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,119
than anything. They've been to the
conference finals in each of the past two

397
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,799
years, in the NBA Finals once
that's the only team that you look and

398
00:25:56,839 --> 00:25:57,920
it's like, oh, they're kind
of set up to because we don't know,

399
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,200
there's a lot of unknowns and you're
trying to look at up and commerce

400
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,079
where it's all right, well,
what kind of happens with Cleveland, what's

401
00:26:03,079 --> 00:26:07,400
gonna go on with Memphis? And
then like, yeah, there'll be other

402
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:08,559
teams that emerge. Then you of
other ones where it feels like, Okay,

403
00:26:08,559 --> 00:26:14,079
well they're kind of at the end
of their their run where it's Golden

404
00:26:14,079 --> 00:26:15,720
State, like that's going somewhere.
We don't necessarily know where the Kings are

405
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,240
gonna go. I'm not saying they're
at the end of their run. That

406
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,559
was a team that I should looped
into the first category. Milwaukee is just

407
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,039
you have Yannis, so you're fine. But it's just this team is Stephan

408
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,440
Storry if it said Yoki just kind
of old. I mean, he's going

409
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,359
in an age twenty eight season.
The way he plays, I don't know

410
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,960
if he's at all he might play
like. I'm not sure athletic decline is

411
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,440
going to really affect him too much. As Blown says, the Pelicans,

412
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,559
depending on what they decide to do. They've been linked to trading for Scoot

413
00:26:41,599 --> 00:26:45,920
Henderson or Brandon Millner. You're not
doing that without trading Zion or brandon Ingram

414
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,960
for anyone who cares about that.
So this team is look dynasty's and inflammatory

415
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,400
word. But I do think there's
maybe one team in the league that you

416
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,519
could argue is in a better position
to do that, And you can't even

417
00:26:57,519 --> 00:27:00,240
make that argument anymore. Because hey
asked, what the Nuggets have a title

418
00:27:00,279 --> 00:27:03,680
and the Celtics court is not.
You know what's interesting about the Nuggets too,

419
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,880
is in addition, so they feel
a little bit like I'm sure I

420
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,480
was trying to think of teams that
won multiple titles with guys like in there

421
00:27:11,519 --> 00:27:17,079
early to like prime prime years,
and just the most recent one is the

422
00:27:17,079 --> 00:27:19,279
Warriors with you know, their their
main guys in their late twenty you know,

423
00:27:19,319 --> 00:27:25,000
mid to late twenties, and then
they added veterans. The Nuggets haven't

424
00:27:25,039 --> 00:27:30,359
even really gotten and just Alexander Pavashevitch
says, just wanted to say that US

425
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:36,960
Nuggets fans are skeptical about DeAndre,
but he mattered ultimately, So the Nuggets

426
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,079
like, that's fine that he was
I think helpful. But the Nuggets haven't

427
00:27:41,079 --> 00:27:45,519
gotten like the Sean Livingston andre Iguodala
types yet, you know, like Jeff

428
00:27:45,519 --> 00:27:49,400
Green is, you know, on
towards the end of a long and productive

429
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,880
career, but like he had a
rough he did not look good in these

430
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:59,200
finals. So there there's a version
of this team going forward where having won

431
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,960
a title, they a tract one
or two veterans that like playing the right

432
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,000
way that will take a little less
to fill in these like seventh and eighth

433
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:11,920
man spots. Potentially that could really
elevate them as guys like Christian Brown continue

434
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:17,160
to improve and possibly if guys like
Bruce Brown come back. I think that's

435
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:22,920
another kind of like argument in favor
of this looking kind of dynastic because they

436
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:27,400
still haven't supplemented the roster with you
know, really still productive vets that have

437
00:28:27,559 --> 00:28:30,880
like a year or two of high
end play left, which sort of starts

438
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,359
that's the type of thing that starts
to happen after you win that first one

439
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,240
is you get like a David West
like the Warriors got, you know,

440
00:28:37,319 --> 00:28:41,920
someone like that that starts to supplement
with a bunch of experience on the cheap.

441
00:28:42,799 --> 00:28:47,359
The other thing I'm interested to see
about like falling under this umbrella,

442
00:28:47,559 --> 00:28:52,799
is we talk a lot about the
championship hangover effect, and there's something about

443
00:28:52,799 --> 00:28:56,559
this team and you already mentioned the
Michael Malone comments, and I think that

444
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,279
Yokich would approach the beginning of every
season whether his team just won twelve games

445
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,759
versus if they just want a title
in the same way. It feels like

446
00:29:03,799 --> 00:29:10,279
there was this level of self discovery
that is only going to make them more

447
00:29:10,359 --> 00:29:14,400
dangerous, at least immediately moving forward. I think some of the things that

448
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,440
stand out for sure Christian Brown,
of course, but just Aaron Gordon,

449
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,240
like knowing always what he was capable
of defensively, but now seeing him in

450
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,519
when I think was always his ideal
offensive role. Maybe he didn't see him

451
00:29:25,519 --> 00:29:29,400
being as effective attacking mismatches or smaller
players, so you find that out.

452
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,960
But the bigger, the two bigger
things. Jemal Murray is just that dude,

453
00:29:33,119 --> 00:29:34,880
and there's still questions about what where
would he rank if Yokich wasn't on

454
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,200
the team, and can he carry
those units during the regular season without Yokich.

455
00:29:38,279 --> 00:29:41,240
Doesn't matter because Yokich is there and
these two are perfect for one another.

456
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,440
We don't even have that discussion.
But his playoff performance, where we

457
00:29:45,519 --> 00:29:48,960
talk a lot about him having those
peaks and valleys, as it progressed,

458
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,400
it felt like we were getting less
of those valleys, and the fact that

459
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,200
he can turn it on defensively,
like his screen navigation at points against Jimmy

460
00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:00,480
Butler when they got cross matched was
incredible. And then the biggest one of

461
00:30:00,519 --> 00:30:03,799
all, by the way, though, might just be Michael Porter Junior,

462
00:30:04,319 --> 00:30:11,119
because this is someone who has improved
a great deal defensively over the past couple

463
00:30:11,119 --> 00:30:12,880
of years. I think we saw
Progress as a one on one guy a

464
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,960
lot of the time. He had
some really bad moments in the final,

465
00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:19,359
but Progress is a team defender overall. Progress is a one on one guy.

466
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,839
He really bothered the Sun, specifically
with his length in that series,

467
00:30:23,319 --> 00:30:26,480
and you're looking at someone who when
you were kind of trying to pay the

468
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,160
wildcard where is would he want more? Would he deviate from the script too

469
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,680
much? He now just fits into
the entire context of their offense, even

470
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,720
when he's not hitting his jumpers,
and there'll still be some kind of eye

471
00:30:37,759 --> 00:30:41,200
roll. Oh he gets tunnel vision. He takes that jumper that he shouldn't

472
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,599
have. But his cutting like the
way he worked on the glass, And

473
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,079
I'm not saying he's gonna play like
this for all eighty two games of the

474
00:30:48,119 --> 00:30:52,200
regular season, but it kind of
also makes you wonder he had what game

475
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,000
was it? I think was it
against Miami? Like six assists in one

476
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,960
of the games. If there's a
player like we might say. Murray said

477
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,680
that he doesn't think Yokich is done
improving. We've people thought about how Murray's

478
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:07,079
not done improving, like Michael Porter
Junior still has what could be a next

479
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,599
profound gear to get to, and
he is capable of reaching while still being

480
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:17,039
on this team and so knowing that
they can attack you in these alternative ways

481
00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:22,119
like these individual players, not even
just the team. To me, it

482
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,640
kind of I don't know how you
would measure championship hangover. I think you

483
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,079
can only look at like the start
of their record, but this team moving

484
00:31:29,119 --> 00:31:33,839
forward feels more dangerous than it does
in this moment, if that makes I

485
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:34,680
don't know if that makes any They
just won the titles, so or are

486
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,920
they ever going to be this dangerous? I mean they might, but when

487
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,359
you look at I feel like the
things that we learned about them maybe what

488
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,920
they always knew about themselves, but
it was never executed on this level,

489
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,519
and there were still a lot of
you know, I think even Malone with

490
00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:51,480
some of the stagger patterns he had
with the lineups where he was really leaning

491
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,480
into defense around Jamal Murray in the
non Jokis minutes. This team has so

492
00:31:55,559 --> 00:32:00,599
much more information about itself and individuals
that I look at im and I'm like

493
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:05,039
it's not even just about them sustaining. It feels like they have another gear

494
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,359
collectively that they can reach. I
think i'd summarize it the simplest way I

495
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:13,559
would look at it is of all
the guys that matter on this roster,

496
00:32:13,759 --> 00:32:19,359
and again all of whom will be
back. Other than maybe Brown, you

497
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,880
would say that the odds of them
staying as good as they are or getting

498
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:28,319
better are way higher than like there's
not I don't see decline, Like who

499
00:32:28,319 --> 00:32:30,839
would you even pick as the guy
that like, well he was a little

500
00:32:30,839 --> 00:32:35,119
over his head and agewise like KCP, Like no, that guy's just he's

501
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,359
just the new Danny Green, Like
that's that's kind of like he's just gonna

502
00:32:37,359 --> 00:32:43,920
be on championship teams for a long
time, CHAP. So like there's just

503
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,559
nobody where you're looking at like whether
they're really going to have to replace that

504
00:32:46,599 --> 00:32:51,200
because he's gonna slip, Like that's
just not And usually that is what you

505
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,640
get with the championship team, or
at least very often because because often it'll

506
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,160
take you know, your all your
principles and then someone will step up and

507
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,240
have you know, some like the
heat, say like had Kyle Lowry had

508
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,680
a great finals and they'd won the
title, you'd be like, well,

509
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,680
he's all nice and all, but
I mean he's thirty seven, so we

510
00:33:07,759 --> 00:33:10,279
gotta worry, you know, do
you worry about that anyway? With Lowry

511
00:33:10,279 --> 00:33:14,680
and the heat who we should probably
talk about at some point here, But

512
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,519
that's not Denver doesn't have that guy. This is just all the arrows are

513
00:33:17,519 --> 00:33:22,119
either you know, horizontal or trending
up. And like, that's a pretty

514
00:33:22,119 --> 00:33:25,359
sweet place to be when you just
just prove yourself as the best team in

515
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,880
the league. You know, they're
they're incredible. And the last thing I

516
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:34,720
wanted to get to on this there
was this tweet from Kaitlyn Cooper that I

517
00:33:34,759 --> 00:33:39,359
want to show up on screen about
how everyone looks for lessons to kind of

518
00:33:39,359 --> 00:33:43,759
be learned whenever there's like a different
finals victory. So she tweeted a few

519
00:33:43,759 --> 00:33:46,920
things and basketball are worse than absolute. Yoki's just crumbled a bunch of definitive

520
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:52,039
notions about what wins in the playoffs
when the reality is there often isn't a

521
00:33:52,079 --> 00:33:55,920
specific mold, but rather optimizing special
talent and the qualities of what can break

522
00:33:57,359 --> 00:34:00,160
from the mold. And I think
that's kind of a huge takeaway for me

523
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,559
from this playoffs. She just put
it so much more eloquently than I than

524
00:34:04,599 --> 00:34:07,280
I ever could have that like,
we kind of have to If we learn

525
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:12,000
anything from this playoffs, it's maybe
we need to reevaluate how we measure winning

526
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,840
in the playoffs. I still think
what Bob Meyers said way back when about

527
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:20,280
finding guys who can play across the
most sixteen wins of your season because they

528
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,280
can exist in the eighty two game
vacuum but not on the postseason stages.

529
00:34:23,559 --> 00:34:30,320
Effectively, That's still salient, But
there is just like I don't know if

530
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,119
Yo Kich or then like if Yo
Kids single handedly does this, or if

531
00:34:32,119 --> 00:34:36,760
the Nuggets in general have done this, but this was very much a team

532
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:42,000
that was optimized to buttress what should
have been its strongest weaknesses. And like,

533
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,559
for as much as Michael Porter improved
defensively, as much as Murray did

534
00:34:45,559 --> 00:34:49,639
defensively, as good as Yokich was
defensively for most of these playoffs, like

535
00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:52,920
there was insulation here in the form
of we went out and got Aaron Gordon

536
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:55,800
and Bruce Brown and KCP and there
was you know there one of was there

537
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,760
enough size in those defensive wings.
Do you have enough? Do you have

538
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:01,440
enough to get by it to the
back up big position. They still figured

539
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:07,079
out a way to optimize their best
players and cover up for what still would

540
00:35:07,079 --> 00:35:09,880
be You could say their defense was
great during the postseason and specifically during the

541
00:35:10,119 --> 00:35:14,039
series against Miami. That was still
the biggest concern about them, and it

542
00:35:14,079 --> 00:35:16,719
was fair. But they found a
way to just it's not even covered that,

543
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:22,199
but maximize the talent that they had
by getting talent that just fit so

544
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:27,159
well. And I think that's something
to take moving forward, and maybe some

545
00:35:27,159 --> 00:35:30,199
people want to glean that, Oh
is patients more important? I don't know

546
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,480
that NBA organizations are ever going to
be patient, And I think a lot

547
00:35:32,519 --> 00:35:37,039
of this is just could there have
been stars in Yoka situation who might have

548
00:35:37,079 --> 00:35:39,360
wanted out after x anount of years
of not winning, Like that's always going

549
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:43,960
to be regardless of what the NBA
does to twist the free agency rules,

550
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,760
like that's always going to be an
element of team building. But I think

551
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:51,800
that the Nuggets are just kind of
they turned so many preconceived notions, like

552
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,719
to kind of book end this discussion, like how we started it, they

553
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,679
turned so many preconceived notions on its
heads, and so there is a big

554
00:35:57,679 --> 00:36:02,760
takeaway. It's not their specific like
roster makeup, it's how they went about

555
00:36:04,199 --> 00:36:07,679
it took a while, it was
gradual, like how they went about just

556
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:13,199
optimizing their best talent and like what
the end result end it ended up being

557
00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:15,760
Yeah, no, I think I
agree with you. I think that's why

558
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:20,320
it feels we don't every time a
team wins a title, we don't immediately

559
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,199
pivot a dynasty talk like that's that's
unusual. And I think that is something

560
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,599
that is arising specifically because of the
nuggets. You know, there's just something,

561
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,519
there's something there that feels a little
different than than You're not that there's

562
00:36:31,519 --> 00:36:36,639
a typical title winner, but from
how we feel most often after the finals

563
00:36:36,639 --> 00:36:38,840
are over, where do you want
to take it with the heat? Do

564
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:45,400
you want to like I just let
me start. I think now it's still

565
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,320
hard to evaluate them, but it's
for a different reason, like we had

566
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,239
a hell of a time basically from
the moment they you know, lost the

567
00:36:52,280 --> 00:37:00,239
first playing game to yesterday of like
what what is like the true like water

568
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,760
level of this team, Like where
where are they really? Because this overperformance

569
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,360
all this other stuff. Thank you, Rob, you also rock, Like,

570
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,960
are they the team that got outscored
in the regular season? Are they

571
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,480
the team that you know, beat
the Bucks and the Knicks and and everybody.

572
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:22,480
It's just like, I think we
need to sort of move that sort

573
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,480
of uncertainty level up a few notches
because you just can't take away what they

574
00:37:25,519 --> 00:37:29,639
did making it to the finals and
getting a game against the team we just

575
00:37:29,679 --> 00:37:32,480
spent thirty five minutes saying how great
they are and how they're going to be

576
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:37,800
a historic juggernaut basically. But I
also think there are real questions, you

577
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:45,159
know, like they're that that could
fundamentally change this heat roster. I don't

578
00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:46,119
know, do you want to take
it in like a post mortem? Do

579
00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:50,280
you just have any as your general
opinion of the heat change. Maybe that's

580
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,920
the way to start it, Like
are they really much closer to a team

581
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:58,559
that makes the finals than a team
that you know is like a one round

582
00:37:58,599 --> 00:38:01,440
and out type of type of ceiling. I feel like we have to default

583
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:06,599
towards the former because they just did
it twice where it's like they were in

584
00:38:06,599 --> 00:38:08,559
the conference or they've been in the
finals two of the past four years.

585
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,599
Conference finals three of the past four
years, and so I do think my

586
00:38:12,639 --> 00:38:15,840
opinion of them has changed that well, maybe they are closer than we think.

587
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:20,519
And when I look at this is
I feel like people are gonna twist

588
00:38:20,559 --> 00:38:22,840
themselves and do a pretzel pretzel trying
to find that profound move. We're already

589
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:28,039
seeing the reports that they tried to
trade for Kyrie. We're already seeing you

590
00:38:28,039 --> 00:38:30,639
know, the aggregation, like Heat
fans want them to trade for Damian Millard,

591
00:38:30,679 --> 00:38:35,679
which okay, great, if that's
the route they go, fine,

592
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,760
like they have Max Struce, Gabe
Vincent, Heywood high Smith. By the

593
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,320
way, they're free agents Kevin Loves
a free agent two if they bring everybody

594
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,960
back, and that's assuming they don't
have bird rights on Kevin Love. But

595
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:51,519
they're gonna have second Apron concerns.
I think they're at like one seventy seven

596
00:38:52,159 --> 00:38:54,800
million, and that's just with cap
holds for there's no actually that's with no

597
00:38:54,960 --> 00:39:00,199
cap holds for like Max Strus or
Gabe Vincent. It's like they're going to

598
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,239
be in the second Apron territory where
they might lose their mid level. And

599
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,199
you know what, fine, because
you don't just let those guys walk.

600
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,320
I mean, maybe they think they
could just find them. But here's where

601
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,280
I land on the heat is I
think, insofar as they're not going to

602
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,760
leave for just absurd contracts, you
bring everybody back, and if there's the

603
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:22,000
move to be made on the trade
market, then okay, go ahead and

604
00:39:22,039 --> 00:39:24,639
pounce. But I don't know that
losing in the finals to a team that

605
00:39:24,679 --> 00:39:30,679
we think might be winning more finals
in the mere future is time for existential

606
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:36,239
panic, especially when it's kind of
backed up by this recent track record of

607
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,159
them competing at the absolute highest level
in the postseason. I get that there's

608
00:39:40,679 --> 00:39:45,599
it feels like there was a fragility
there. Kyle Lowry's age, even Jimmy

609
00:39:45,639 --> 00:39:50,280
Butler's age, the half court offense
just being iffy for how many years now,

610
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,960
And you just got proof that you
might it's not throwing the money away,

611
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:59,559
but you don't need Tyler hero Like
You're like that that's a roster piece

612
00:39:59,559 --> 00:40:02,199
you could chang. Now. Maybe
the counter argument is suddenly their offense looks

613
00:40:02,199 --> 00:40:06,320
a lot better with him out there, But I think I think my takeaway

614
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,239
with respect a hero from this playoff
run is that, like, at best,

615
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:15,199
he's neutral, you know, and
that's a significant salary slot. That

616
00:40:15,599 --> 00:40:17,760
so him and the Lowry piece are
the ones where if you're of the mind

617
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,079
that the Heat are going to go
star hunt, like, those are the

618
00:40:21,079 --> 00:40:23,719
tools, those salaries. But I
agree with you. I think you look

619
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:29,199
at this team and I think,
now, I don't know, if you

620
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,440
ask me to like predict the standings
in the East for next year, how

621
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,760
many teams would be ahead of them. It would probably be a few.

622
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,880
But then we'll get into the playoffs
and all we're gonna be able to talk

623
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,199
about, assuming they make the playoffs, which was iffy this year, will

624
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,039
be Okay, we know what they
do. You know, how hard is

625
00:40:45,079 --> 00:40:49,679
it going to be in a first
and second round to pick someone to beat

626
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,079
the Heat after we just watch what
they've done and like you alluded to what

627
00:40:52,119 --> 00:40:58,960
they did a couple of years ago, So I have a I feel like

628
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,400
they're more likely to make a splashy
move than to bring all these guys back.

629
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:08,039
That's my gut, Even though that
feels weird as a reaction to we

630
00:41:08,639 --> 00:41:12,760
there was one team we couldn't beat, You know that like that that's a

631
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,760
weird place to be. I don't
disagree that they if they can, they

632
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:20,079
should, but when you're looking for
that move, you're at the mercy of

633
00:41:20,119 --> 00:41:23,719
the trade market. And I don't
know that you need to rush into anything

634
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:29,280
because it's so tough because we have
a regular season's worth of information. And

635
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,679
by the way, shout out to
Matt Moore of Action Network pointed this out,

636
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:37,119
because you and I were both concerned
with this dovetails with the Nuggets about

637
00:41:37,119 --> 00:41:39,840
how Denver was performing throughout the last
six weeks of the season. No more

638
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:44,440
taking March and April basketball in the
NBA. Seriously, I'm done. I'm

639
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:45,679
with him, I'm done like it. I feel like we get burned by

640
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,239
it every year. Both I'm a
good and bad end of the spectrum.

641
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,280
But the heat it was different.
They were different because we had an entire

642
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,920
season's worth of sample that was saying, no, this squad is is not

643
00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:00,360
elite and they're missing something, and
there was this huge drop off from last

644
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,440
year. And now I think it's
reasonable you look at the roster and say,

645
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:06,360
Okay, well, Kyle Lowry is
getting older, he's not going he's

646
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,599
already kind of just been diminished offensively, and how much can you lean on

647
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,039
him moving forward? And so I
get the impetus to say they need to

648
00:42:14,039 --> 00:42:16,719
make a big move. You mentioned
it already. It's Tyler Hero and Kyle

649
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:22,039
Lowry and I go back and forth
on Tyler Hero because his offense. I

650
00:42:22,039 --> 00:42:23,400
don't know if it was the only
thing they were missing, but for what

651
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:29,079
their offense needed, he was exactly
the missing piece. And yet he was

652
00:42:29,119 --> 00:42:30,960
available for Game five, it seems
like, and then he didn't play.

653
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:35,199
I haven't seen any follow up on
that. And if you're that worried about

654
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,079
him compromising your defense to where you
feel like you can't play him and Dug

655
00:42:37,159 --> 00:42:39,880
the Robinson at the same time,
or even him and Max Strews, who

656
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:45,239
like Max Streus was Yeah, So, if you're that worried about his defense

657
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,320
to where you feel like you can't
play that way, or you don't want

658
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:52,199
to downsize that much when you've been
running so small to begin with, that's

659
00:42:52,199 --> 00:42:54,880
when you start to look around.
But I don't know if they're are,

660
00:42:55,039 --> 00:43:00,320
like, don't they feel closer than
a Damian Lillard away though? Is I

661
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,119
guess what I'm getting at? Yeah, I think so. I mean you

662
00:43:02,199 --> 00:43:07,599
have to think that, because well, any is Damian l just made the

663
00:43:07,639 --> 00:43:09,239
finals. We're like well, do
they need like a top ten player to

664
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:13,840
make sure that'd be cool? That
would certainly help, But yeah, you're

665
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,960
right, I don't think they need
you know, Bradley Beale or whoever whatever

666
00:43:19,039 --> 00:43:22,760
other you know, extremely expensive uh, you know, big upgrade would be

667
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:28,800
out there. Although like this gets
back to the original thing. I like,

668
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,840
is Gabe Vincent this good? And
is Max Drew's this good? Because

669
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:37,760
the regular season says no, Duncan
Robbinson this good? And if they're not,

670
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,920
then like maybe you do actually need
that level of upgrade, you know

671
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:45,599
what I mean, Like if but
then we're just I'm just going in circles

672
00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:49,960
because the heat always do that to
me. But then should you shouldn't you

673
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,159
assume that most of these guys will
be this good in the playoffs because that's

674
00:43:52,159 --> 00:43:54,800
just happened a handful of times now, Like, I don't know, it's

675
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:59,599
hard. It's that makes it more
difficult to decide what level of upgrade they

676
00:43:59,639 --> 00:44:04,599
need, because even if we have
more information that like our outlook on them

677
00:44:04,639 --> 00:44:07,639
should skew more towards their playoff you
know, performance than their regular season one.

678
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:13,199
I don't know if that's necessarily like
a safe way to think about it

679
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:15,280
across the board, Like, you
know, they're better than the regular season,

680
00:44:15,519 --> 00:44:19,039
but they may not be quite as
good as they were in the playoffs.

681
00:44:19,039 --> 00:44:22,320
So like, what do you actually
need, Like what level of upgrade

682
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,000
do you need? And can you
get one? Because you're right, like

683
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:29,960
it doesn't need to be this offseason
necessarily, it could be at the deadline.

684
00:44:30,039 --> 00:44:31,599
It could not happen at all,
like the Bam Autobio could learn to

685
00:44:31,599 --> 00:44:35,440
shoot threes, and like, who
knows what that does for this team?

686
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,239
You know that there's a lot of
ways to go. I guess I would

687
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:43,079
frame it this way, is if
they made an upgrade and they're oddly set

688
00:44:43,119 --> 00:44:45,159
up when you look at their salary
structures. I guess if you're willing to

689
00:44:45,199 --> 00:44:49,960
move Kayla Martin, which I don't
know why you would on this contract as

690
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,920
bad as he was offensively in the
finals for most of it. And I

691
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,559
guess they have Victor Oladipo's nine point
five million dollars dollar. But like,

692
00:44:55,559 --> 00:45:00,519
you're not really built to do anything
other than make a mega trade because your

693
00:45:00,599 --> 00:45:05,480
five players or four players, oh
yeah, five players next year with Tyler

694
00:45:05,559 --> 00:45:09,119
Heiro making eighteen plus million and four
players making twenty seven plus million, and

695
00:45:09,159 --> 00:45:13,079
then after that, Victor Oladipo is
your highest paid player at nine point five.

696
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,199
But like we everyone's gonna get into
the stars. Maybe they'll think that,

697
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,679
oh, do they get in on
the Kyrie or Ring sweepstakes or do

698
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,360
they look at Bradley Biel or Zacholine
or Damian Lillard, Like if they just

699
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:28,639
got a boy on Bardanovitch to plug
the four, Like is that something that

700
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:30,440
does enough? Or does it?
It needs to be a bigger move than

701
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,199
that. And this is all we
have. We don't know what's gonna actually

702
00:45:34,199 --> 00:45:37,079
happen in the off season where I
would if I had to bet high Smith,

703
00:45:37,159 --> 00:45:40,320
Vincent and Strus they're not all going
to be back next wedn't think.

704
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:45,480
I wouldn't think. I mean like
you would have because this team just made

705
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,840
the finals. Like, if you're
gonna be just skyrocket past that second luxury

706
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:52,440
apron, then I think owners are
gonna be very concerned about And yet they're

707
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:54,360
not even they're so close to it
that they can't even like they would have

708
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:59,320
to dump mega salary if they want
to access have access to their mid level

709
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,239
exception. They're in. They're in
a tough spot. I just don't think

710
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:07,199
it's I guess as dire as people
are bound, because even before they lost

711
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:08,280
Game five, some of the headlines
were like do they need to go out

712
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:12,960
and get a star? And I
just I don't think. I don't think

713
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,880
they need to make upgrades. And
I look at the four spots specifically where

714
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:20,239
it was Okay, Kayla Martin had
great moments, Kevin Love had great moments.

715
00:46:20,639 --> 00:46:22,559
Even if they still had PJ.
Tucker, I don't know if he

716
00:46:22,559 --> 00:46:25,199
would have been all the difference in
the world. They need a four and

717
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:30,559
preferably someone who's going to be like
a really big offensive threat at the four,

718
00:46:30,679 --> 00:46:32,880
like and obviously not torpedo your defense. And so I've wondered, like,

719
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,840
could this be a sneaky John Collins
team where I was just thinking John

720
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:38,840
Collins before you said it. Yeah, where it's maybe the players are expensive,

721
00:46:39,199 --> 00:46:43,679
like to pay, but to get
them via trade shouldn't cost you the

722
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:45,639
moon Where's Damian Lillard is gonna even
at his age, is gonna cost you?

723
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,880
And that doesn't solve your problem at
the four, Like you're just you're

724
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,920
kind of just upgrading your guard position
where you're going from let's say just Kyle

725
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,480
Lowry and Tyler here or to Damian
Lillard. Yeah, you do that,

726
00:46:54,800 --> 00:47:00,320
but to flesh out your roster if
they can make and they're going have to

727
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:01,280
do it via trade. And I
think that's why trades are gonna be to

728
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:06,559
focus with the Heat because it's unless
they get super lucky on minimum deals where

729
00:47:06,559 --> 00:47:08,800
they find undrafted guys where they hit
on their number eighteen pick whatever it is.

730
00:47:09,079 --> 00:47:14,159
Or you think Nikola Yovic is like
the next great thing. It has

731
00:47:14,199 --> 00:47:16,400
to happen via trade for them,
whatever real upgrades they make. Yeah,

732
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:21,599
I agree. Yeah, I don't
know. Oh, go ahead, I

733
00:47:21,639 --> 00:47:22,400
was gonna say, I don't have
any other Heat thoughts. Do you want

734
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,719
to talk about the Raptors hiring a
coach or they got any straight strays on

735
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,440
the Heat left. I don't really
have any strays in the heat. I

736
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,639
just think my opinion of them has
changed in sort of the affirmative where I

737
00:47:31,679 --> 00:47:37,599
think that they're they're maybe they're not
as close as making the finals suggest but

738
00:47:37,639 --> 00:47:42,440
they're not we need to you know, go nuclear over the off season.

739
00:47:42,679 --> 00:47:45,400
Yeah, but yeah, let's talk. So the Raptors finally and they were

740
00:47:45,519 --> 00:47:47,400
were they the first team to have
No, the Pistons were the first team

741
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:52,079
to have the head coaching vacancy,
right or was that was that Toronto?

742
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:53,920
That was so long ago. I
have no idea, Dan. They were

743
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:58,360
one of the first two teams with
a coaching vacancy, and they were the

744
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:06,280
final one to phil said vacancy,
and they hired U Darko Ryukovich. And

745
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:08,639
what you're saying that I might have
pronounced that wrong, I'm seeing. So

746
00:48:09,039 --> 00:48:14,360
I looked. I did some research
because I so it's it's think of pages

747
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:19,039
Stoyakovitch, so like Rayakovich that because
I found a tweet where he says his

748
00:48:19,079 --> 00:48:21,719
own name. So I'm going with
that one. Then go with that one

749
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:27,159
because I was using someone else who
said it on TV. So Yakovich,

750
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:31,000
Yakovich, Rayakovich. Okay, Darko
Ryakovitch. They're gonna have to be one

751
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,880
that I perfect. It's funny that
I tried to do this beforehand and still

752
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,840
fucked it up. We have a
question from blow and we'll get to about

753
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:39,559
the Pelicans, of course, so
they hire him. I don't know what

754
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,000
to think. I mean, people
seem to like him from Memphis. I

755
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,519
don't know what to make of this. Did you find it interesting that they

756
00:48:45,599 --> 00:48:47,239
went with you know, they did
this with Nick Nurse, so maybe he

757
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:51,199
don't find it interesting, but they
went the first time head coach route here.

758
00:48:51,639 --> 00:48:54,440
I think it's interesting by definition because
Messiau Jerry has never hired a coach

759
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:59,239
like outside of his own organization when
he's been in charge of a team,

760
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,119
so like this is a first chance
to pick someone. And so it's tricky

761
00:49:02,159 --> 00:49:07,599
because we know so little about Ryokovic
and hey, he's had no head coaching

762
00:49:07,639 --> 00:49:10,360
reps at the NBA level, so
it's like not knowing anything about him.

763
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:15,280
I don't know what that says about
Messiah Jerry's priorities or what direction the roster

764
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:20,719
may go. I do think it
suggests that like a rebuild, and you

765
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,760
could couple this with Van Fleet opting
out and some of the reporting suggesting maybe

766
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:29,280
he's not coming back. It seems
like player development is something that they're going

767
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,320
to focus on. And that makes
sense to me because like Scottie Barnes didn't

768
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:36,559
get better and a Nobi has not
progressed like many of us have hoped he

769
00:49:36,639 --> 00:49:40,559
would. So I don't know if
I'm saying this is a teardown, but

770
00:49:40,599 --> 00:49:45,400
it does seem like a little bit
of this higher suggests to me like a

771
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:50,719
little bit of a reset or at
least like a an emphasis is being put

772
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:55,000
on, you know, different elements
of franchise building or whatever. Then maybe

773
00:49:55,079 --> 00:50:00,360
was there under Nurse who was sort
of like the reputation was like tactical mad

774
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:04,840
scientists, like is not developing guys
but figures out how to use them in

775
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:09,000
weird ways, just a little different. So I mean it's hard. Again,

776
00:50:09,079 --> 00:50:13,119
this is all guesswork because we've never
seen this guy coach in NBA game

777
00:50:13,199 --> 00:50:15,079
and we can't be sure. But
if I had to pick, I think

778
00:50:15,079 --> 00:50:20,840
it does indicate maybe that the Raptors
are putting more of an emphasis on developing

779
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,199
youth, you know, getting their
guys that they highly value to improve.

780
00:50:25,119 --> 00:50:30,840
But but again hard to say.
I think what makes it even tougher and

781
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:34,119
I think it was Sham's had this
report that Fred van Fleet is likely to

782
00:50:34,199 --> 00:50:39,159
leave in free agency I'm talking about. Yeah, I like that, So

783
00:50:39,199 --> 00:50:43,360
I'm with you there, But it
kind of goes against and I know it's

784
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,880
protected, but it's top six protected
them pivoting into more of a gradual timeline.

785
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:52,000
Now after giving up a top six
protected pick, for Yakapartle would be

786
00:50:52,079 --> 00:50:57,480
weird. Think you could technically it's
within your control to keep that pick,

787
00:50:57,519 --> 00:51:00,960
but that's only if you're Cathlock bad. And so if they're go doing what

788
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:05,880
you're saying and they're really going to
prioritize development, I guess they still believe

789
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:08,960
they're going to be really good,
and I just I would question the pathway

790
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:15,320
to them being really good without van
Fleet specifically because of how important I would

791
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:19,920
still think that he is to the
well like one getting aaka Peurdle the ball,

792
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,960
but also just like the spacing that's
kind of not great to begin with

793
00:51:24,039 --> 00:51:27,840
right now anyway, and maybe you
still look at the talent on this team

794
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,679
and if okay, well, if
he leaves and GTJ leaves, they still

795
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:36,760
Scottie Barnes and Anobi and Siakam and
let's say they bring back Purdle, could

796
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,800
they still be a good regular season
team. This team has been sending i'd

797
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:44,480
be like, mixed messages since the
start of last season, and I don't

798
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:50,000
even think that I would hazard to
guess as to what their intent is.

799
00:51:50,039 --> 00:51:52,840
But I will say, if if
it's true, if that's just not sort

800
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:58,199
of a a leverage which happens a
lot like disinformation season. That's where we're

801
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,079
at. Fred Van. He wants
his highest contract possible. He wants the

802
00:52:01,119 --> 00:52:05,320
Raptors think he has options. If
you lose him, I know that he's

803
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,400
not considered their best player, and
he's not considered their most important player.

804
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,760
I think, looking long term,
that' Scotty Barnes. If you lose him,

805
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:15,760
I don't know how you avoid kind
of like starting over, because I

806
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:22,679
just feel like he's mission critical to
maximizing what right now is an imperfectly built

807
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:29,800
offensive setup. Mixed messages is right. It is weird, Like I think

808
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:31,960
the pick, the personal analysis.
Everyone comes here for a grant and I

809
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:36,239
just to say, well, and
the Raptors are weird. Here's the thing.

810
00:52:36,559 --> 00:52:39,840
The Peartle pick, the pick attached
to the Pearl deal means you can't

811
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:44,159
fully rebuild. I don't think.
I mean maybe maybe if you people think

812
00:52:44,199 --> 00:52:46,880
that draft class sucks, but yeah, but I mean, nobody fucking knows

813
00:52:47,079 --> 00:52:52,920
this way. It's like way too
early for that. If you I don't

814
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:57,800
think you can go full rebuild.
I think if you have Annaobi, and

815
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,119
if you trade Annaobi for a couple
first, maybe that changes because you sort

816
00:53:00,159 --> 00:53:05,119
of you know, insulated yourself against
the pain of potentially losing a you know,

817
00:53:05,159 --> 00:53:07,880
a seventh pick or whatever. There's
a lot of ways that could go.

818
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:14,880
I think probably if you have Siakam
and Ananobi and Barnes and if you

819
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,719
lose Van Fleet, like a decent
like look, the Raptors half court offense

820
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:21,320
was bad. At some point we
have to say Van Fleet was not good

821
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,079
enough at making that offense what it
needed to be. Like I was gonna

822
00:53:24,079 --> 00:53:29,880
ask, like overrating Vanet, right, it's not even just like he's not

823
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:34,000
a two level of score, he's
not a three levels. So I really

824
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,400
like van Fleet. And he's another
guy that's like, you know, he's

825
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:40,199
proven it in the biggest games,
but he's a small guard. He shoots,

826
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:44,199
you know, routinely around like forty
percent from the field, like just

827
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,440
these crazy low numbers. He buttresses
that with a bunch of threes. But

828
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:51,840
I wonder, do you think he's
a little overrated, like I saw it

829
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,639
like John Hollinger did some you know, he's breaking down free agency and you

830
00:53:54,679 --> 00:53:59,960
know he's making the comparison of of
I'm not sure how much worse Van Fleet

831
00:54:00,079 --> 00:54:01,920
is than Kyrie Irving. Now Kyrie
Irving comes with like a million you know

832
00:54:02,079 --> 00:54:07,639
asterisks, But like I think Van
Vleet might be getting a little like he

833
00:54:07,679 --> 00:54:09,440
should make more than twenty two million, which is the player option he's going

834
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:14,079
to decline. But I don't know
if like he's not a thirty million dollar

835
00:54:14,199 --> 00:54:16,960
guy, which if that's what he
gets, I totally understand the Raptors saying

836
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:21,119
like, nah, that's we're not
doing that. He's a thirty million dollar

837
00:54:21,119 --> 00:54:23,639
guy. The right team, I
just don't what's the right team would like

838
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:28,159
you know what I mean, I'm
asking you, like impossible retire would be

839
00:54:28,199 --> 00:54:30,360
perfect for him. Yeah, okay, if he doesn't have tap space,

840
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,199
let me just let me make all
the teams. I can't. Orlando where

841
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:37,199
sort of like they're gonna run like
they'll need they'll need him to organize some

842
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:39,639
of the offense. But they're gonna
use him a bunch of off ball and

843
00:54:39,639 --> 00:54:44,159
they have other creators that are really
going to insulate him. Where it's like

844
00:54:44,199 --> 00:54:47,719
Toronto has Siakam and even Siakam and
I don't mean this is an insult because

845
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:52,960
Siakham was borderline all NBA this year. There's like a slower processing speed to

846
00:54:53,039 --> 00:54:55,920
the way he attacks. That's their
whole team. That's their whole team.

847
00:54:57,199 --> 00:54:59,280
You know what I mean. But
you're you're no, you're not wrong.

848
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,960
That is that is a knock on
him. I just think if if you're

849
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:07,480
having to say, well, he
makes sense in Orlando van Vleet because he

850
00:55:07,519 --> 00:55:10,119
won't have to be that you've got
these two for words that are you're like

851
00:55:10,159 --> 00:55:14,320
primary shot creators. That's awesome.
If he just is a spot up guy

852
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,239
and a second side attacker and runs
some pick and rolls, that's great to

853
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:21,920
me. Like, because you're making
all these qualifying statements of why he's a

854
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:22,719
good fit there, it's like,
well, then he's not a thirty million

855
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:25,440
dollar player, just like you know, in a vacuum. I guess.

856
00:55:25,639 --> 00:55:29,440
I guess to them, maybe he
would be. But all I'm saying is

857
00:55:29,519 --> 00:55:34,079
like, I don't feel like it's
catastrophic if if the Raptors lose Van Fleet.

858
00:55:34,119 --> 00:55:37,199
I think there's a scenario where they
replace him with god knows what,

859
00:55:37,199 --> 00:55:40,079
because they don't they won't have a
ton of assets. But and the offense

860
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:44,800
like is either not that much worse
or maybe just where it was or even

861
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:46,599
a little better. Like that's totally
on the table to me, I guess

862
00:55:46,599 --> 00:55:51,320
maybe i'd agree with you if I
thought the point guard market this year was

863
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:53,800
more conducive, Like how are you
replacing him? If he leaves, you're

864
00:55:53,800 --> 00:56:00,400
gonna get let's say they you're gonna
Gabe Vincent. Yeah. Maybe maybe that's

865
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,159
why he's a thirty million dollar player, because there's just nobody out there,

866
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:07,519
and that's you know, before we
get to the question from Bloom who's more

867
00:56:07,559 --> 00:56:09,760
overrated? And this presupposed that both
were overrated. I don't know if that.

868
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:14,480
I'm there on Fred van Fleet,
But who's more overrated? Fred van

869
00:56:14,519 --> 00:56:20,920
Fleet or Oganna Nobi? Oh man, I'm gonna say van Fleet. I

870
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:24,639
think Annonobi just fits anywhere and with
respect. So if annon Obi were making

871
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:29,239
I don't know what he's making.
Oh my god, he's thinking eighteen this

872
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:31,559
year. He's not overrated. That's
a steal for eighteen. If van Fleet

873
00:56:31,559 --> 00:56:36,320
gets three, okay, independent of
their salary, come, I don't know

874
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:40,079
what who's doing the rating and what's
the basis because we've been waiting for like

875
00:56:40,119 --> 00:56:44,719
the offensive leap from Ogianna Nobi since
he ended the league and haven't gotten it

876
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:47,480
right. And I think the stuff
he does defensively special. But you would

877
00:56:47,559 --> 00:56:52,079
rather pay O G n and Obe
thirty million dollars a year than Fred van

878
00:56:52,159 --> 00:56:57,360
Fleet. Well, that's it's a
close question for me. The age is

879
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,519
a factor, the positional versatility as
a factor. I don't know who's more

880
00:57:00,639 --> 00:57:07,320
overrated. I think og has become
overrated because and my the thing that signaled

881
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:10,239
me to it is how everyone thought
that Memphis needed to mortgage the farm to

882
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:14,440
get him, and it was like, that is not the player that they

883
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:16,559
need, where it's like he would
help which as they need someone who I'm

884
00:57:16,559 --> 00:57:22,400
always going to value any level of
trace offensive creation, and Fred van Fleet

885
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,800
certainly has that, even his off
ball creation, like with his movement where

886
00:57:27,119 --> 00:57:29,679
Ada Nobi's gonna be. You can
give him the ball, maybe he can

887
00:57:29,719 --> 00:57:34,400
bully balls way to some stuff,
but Fred van Fleet's more functional to me,

888
00:57:34,519 --> 00:57:37,320
both on and away from the ball. Yeah, shot creation is the

889
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:40,639
most important skiller is. I think
that that's that's a that's a good piece

890
00:57:40,639 --> 00:57:44,199
of evidence for your point. I
do think maybe we get an answer because

891
00:57:44,199 --> 00:57:46,400
if van Fleet is gone and then
we see what the Raptors offense becomes without

892
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:51,960
him or like with a replacement level
guy in his spot. But you're concerned

893
00:57:52,039 --> 00:57:54,360
to find out your point, it's
not even concern. Your fact is fair.

894
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:59,480
The half court offense still that he
wasn't able to elevate it. I

895
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,679
don't even know specifically what they ranked
during his minutes, like in the half

896
00:58:02,679 --> 00:58:07,000
court like they had a very even
at their peak this year, they had

897
00:58:07,039 --> 00:58:13,440
a very just mediocre at best half
court offense. And so I totally understand

898
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:15,159
where you're coming from if you need
him to be that player. And the

899
00:58:15,239 --> 00:58:20,679
Raptors half court offense though, was
seven point three points better per one hundred

900
00:58:20,679 --> 00:58:23,079
plays with him with him on,
and so that might be they were also

901
00:58:23,119 --> 00:58:29,719
playing that ninety minutes a game and
like all really start or heavy. But

902
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:34,199
no, you're I think that's I
think you probably just won the argument based

903
00:58:34,199 --> 00:58:37,239
on that. Stead Let's get to
this question that we weren't playing on answering

904
00:58:37,239 --> 00:58:42,639
but from blown, do you think
the Pelicans would trade Zion or Ingram for

905
00:58:42,679 --> 00:58:45,519
the number three pick? And I
do want to just re orient this question

906
00:58:45,559 --> 00:58:49,000
a little bit to say, do
you think they would trade because it seems

907
00:58:49,039 --> 00:58:52,280
like they're very much interested in Scoot
Henderson, not Bred and Miller and so

908
00:58:52,320 --> 00:59:00,880
would you trade either one of those
guys for Scoot Henderson. I'm having a

909
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:05,719
hard time not like Zion. Right
now is probably the wrong time to be

910
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:09,159
evaluating Zion. I think there's a
lot of like non basketball stuff that obviously

911
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:15,840
is like you might just want to
get rid of. I think they might.

912
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:21,920
I think they might, and I
think it was wild they should you

913
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,199
think so time. Look which which
are the two, Ingram or Zion?

914
00:59:24,239 --> 00:59:27,559
Though, if you had to pick, if the pelf, if the if

915
00:59:27,559 --> 00:59:30,519
the Blazer said pick one, if
the play, if the Blazer said pick

916
00:59:30,559 --> 00:59:38,119
one, I wow. The fact
that I probably would, I think you

917
00:59:38,239 --> 00:59:42,800
have to go Ingram if you're too
but you hesitated, and I would too

918
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,920
because it's that close, which is
crazy. Wow. But I'm just at

919
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:50,039
the point with Zion that run they
had this season in the middle of the

920
00:59:50,159 --> 00:59:52,840
year, I was just like,
Oh, it's yeah, Zion, it's

921
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:57,119
so dominant. But this dude cannot
for them so far as not stayed on

922
00:59:57,159 --> 01:00:00,440
the floor. And I get the
counter argument would be, we don't know.

923
01:00:00,559 --> 01:00:04,119
You have to think Scoot Hendrickson this
special, which I think we both

924
01:00:04,159 --> 01:00:07,920
are in agreement that he is going
to be be special. Zion is still

925
01:00:07,119 --> 01:00:10,639
so young that it feels, and
so is Ingram, by the way,

926
01:00:12,079 --> 01:00:15,559
but I think you know what you're
giving up if you trade brandon Ingram.

927
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:20,119
Zion is twenty two, he's gonna
turn twenty three in July. To give

928
01:00:20,199 --> 01:00:24,400
up on him now feels like malpractice. But it's just he's missed basically two

929
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:29,000
thirds of the career games he's been
eligible to play. And if you're going

930
01:00:29,039 --> 01:00:32,159
to Scoot Henderson route anyway, like
that's kind of your advantage creator And is

931
01:00:32,159 --> 01:00:36,760
the fit with Zion as clean as
it might be with with Ingram? I

932
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:40,639
get like, because even Scoot Henderson's
gonna replace I don't know anyone can replace

933
01:00:40,679 --> 01:00:45,480
what Like, He's gonna supplant a
lot of Zion's rim pressure anyway, And

934
01:00:45,519 --> 01:00:49,559
I'd be interested to see them play
together. I feel like, if you're

935
01:00:49,599 --> 01:00:53,639
just going based off what peaks could
be, you would have to pick Ingram.

936
01:00:53,679 --> 01:00:57,880
But if it's just it's the Blazers
or the let's say the Hornets,

937
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:00,360
because Scoot mic go two and if
I were the Hornets, I would take

938
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:05,480
him it too. If it's Zion
for Scoot, I don't know, man,

939
01:01:06,199 --> 01:01:07,840
I might be doing it at this
point. But again, I don't

940
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:12,360
know if I'm just like trapped in
this, like I've I've fallen in love

941
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:15,599
with the Pelicans. With Zion so
often they look they're on the custom of

942
01:01:15,639 --> 01:01:20,079
something. Only we pulled back by
injuries specifically to him, but also Ingram

943
01:01:20,079 --> 01:01:22,159
had his own issues this year,
so to herb joone YadA, YadA,

944
01:01:22,239 --> 01:01:27,480
YadA. And also is there an
element that it's is it easier to it's

945
01:01:27,519 --> 01:01:30,440
easier to build a team around Zion
than Ingram because I don't think you should

946
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:34,440
build a team around Ingram. That's
that would be my stance. Yeah,

947
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:38,119
but Ingram scales two more total situations. I think it's the best way to

948
01:01:38,119 --> 01:01:42,840
put it. I think that is
the fundamental issue with Zion is it's it

949
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:46,199
is clear that when he is healthy
and on the floor, he is the

950
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:52,559
center around which you build of a
very very good team. He's a He's

951
01:01:52,559 --> 01:01:55,800
a difficult player to build around though, because he has like pronounced weaknesses on

952
01:01:55,840 --> 01:02:01,440
both ends, and you have to
be like pretty careful and pretty circumspect,

953
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:05,559
and like how what guys you put
around him? You need specific things.

954
01:02:06,679 --> 01:02:09,239
And then he's also never healthy,
so it's like you build this tailor made

955
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:14,719
roster to suit what your best player. Who Again, we got evidence like

956
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:19,639
when he's right, he's he's an
All NBA. Like Dion has played at

957
01:02:19,639 --> 01:02:22,320
a level already that Ingram, i'd
say, is highly unlikely to ever reach.

958
01:02:22,599 --> 01:02:25,639
Like I know Ingram has been an
All Star, but just like Ingram

959
01:02:25,639 --> 01:02:30,079
has never had stretches where it's like
Jesus Christ, this guy is All NBA

960
01:02:30,199 --> 01:02:32,679
First Team. He's gonna average thirty
points a game, He's gonna shoot sixty

961
01:02:32,679 --> 01:02:39,480
percent, Like just he's never touching
that Zion, just like he's great when

962
01:02:39,519 --> 01:02:44,000
in the stretches where he plays and
he's healthy, it's just so hard.

963
01:02:44,239 --> 01:02:45,480
So if you add scoop, this
is what it gets around. It gets

964
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:49,199
back to you trade Ingram for the
pick, right, you get Scoot Henderson

965
01:02:49,239 --> 01:02:52,239
in there. I feel like that
insulates you a little bit, so you're

966
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:54,960
not just left with this weird ass
roster when Zion's not healthy and out there.

967
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:59,760
But your point is right, like
it does you have to think about,

968
01:03:00,239 --> 01:03:02,199
well, if we take the ball
out of Zion's hands creation wise,

969
01:03:02,599 --> 01:03:07,039
like what's he doing? You know? Are we are? We Like it's

970
01:03:07,079 --> 01:03:09,079
a screens and stuff, but yeah, but it's just different, right,

971
01:03:09,119 --> 01:03:12,480
So I don't know. I think
I think the answer is Ingram. You

972
01:03:12,519 --> 01:03:15,440
would trade Ingram for the number three
pick? I think, I think full

973
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:19,519
stop, I would probably do that
if I'm New Orleans. You gotta throw

974
01:03:19,679 --> 01:03:23,320
some you gotta get take some money
back or whatever. But it's not easy,

975
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:28,960
Like what you're left with is not
necessarily a simple setup with Zion and

976
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:30,840
what you assume is going to be
like an All Star, you know,

977
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:36,119
ball dominant point guard. We have
New Orleans fans in the discord chat,

978
01:03:36,159 --> 01:03:37,159
and I'll be interesting what they have
to say on this matter. Do you

979
01:03:37,159 --> 01:03:40,079
want to take us out of here? On a segment that we did not

980
01:03:40,119 --> 01:03:44,280
think we're gonna go this long?
I'm just the Nuggets and Heat and then

981
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:47,519
a little bit of Raptors Pelicans stop. Apparently we had to do it because

982
01:03:47,639 --> 01:03:52,480
we won't have basketball games or teams
playing to talk about for quite a while.

983
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:54,159
Now. Yeah, we will have
NBA basketball for quite some time.

984
01:03:54,199 --> 01:03:57,760
We are going to have to shift
into off season mode, which we will

985
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:00,639
be doing immediately after we hit end
on this podcast. Would you like to

986
01:04:00,679 --> 01:04:04,280
take us out of here? Yeah? Thanks everybody for listening for all the

987
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:08,639
comments. Today for checking us out
on YouTube. If you want to make

988
01:04:08,679 --> 01:04:13,280
sure you can follow us everywhere that
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989
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:17,039
Hardwood Knox on Twitter and TikTok at
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990
01:04:17,079 --> 01:04:19,760
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991
01:04:21,039 --> 01:04:25,440
Give us five stars wherever you listen
to your podcasts, great reviews on iTunes,

992
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:29,679
help Spotify two. Tell your friends
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993
01:04:29,719 --> 01:04:32,119
everything and I'll close it out here. Buy some merch, Dan, where's

994
01:04:32,159 --> 01:04:34,760
the link for the merch? Can
you tell us where that's going to be?

995
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:38,880
Is that in the description? Yeah? In the YouTube and podcast description

996
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:40,960
I'll post. I'll bet I need
you promote it on Twitter. I don't

997
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:43,000
know, but if people are listening
to the podcast, hopefully they can go

998
01:04:43,199 --> 01:04:45,840
find that. But thank you to
anyone who has purchased some Hardwood knoxwag.

999
01:04:46,199 --> 01:04:49,800
Yes double thanks for me and I'll
take us out with a shout out to

1000
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:55,239
the one only free agent Frank Milikina
and an apology to jar it Outen