1 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:21,320 We're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Jasinski, 2 00:00:21,359 --> 00:00:24,000 culture editor here at The Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,719 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST. 4 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,640 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts into the premium version of 5 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,159 our website as well. Today we are joined by Kevin Valier. He is 6 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,159 the author of the new book All the Kingdoms of the World on radical religious 7 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:44,119 Alternatives to Liberalism. He's an Associate professor of Philosophy at Bowling Green State University, 8 00:00:44,359 --> 00:00:48,240 where he directs their program and Philosophy, Politics, Economics, and Law. 9 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,920 He's the author of four books. Kevin, thank you for joining us. 10 00:00:52,439 --> 00:00:56,039 Really glad to be on. Yeah, you're writing in this book, 11 00:00:56,759 --> 00:01:03,159 in large part about integralism, which has become once again a very hot topic 12 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,920 on the right, a lightning run for debate, especially as the Republican Party 13 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,319 sort of begins its transition. We've hosted a lot of conversations on this podcast 14 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,760 about it, you know, be it with Patrick Knee and or folks on 15 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,760 the other side of that question. And I wanted to ask you, Kevin, 16 00:01:18,879 --> 00:01:23,799 just right off the bat here to tell us what you're doing in this 17 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,719 book, all the kingdoms of the world, with that kind of current context 18 00:01:26,799 --> 00:01:33,159 in mind, your you know, just to give a little bit of background. 19 00:01:34,439 --> 00:01:38,159 You know, the interegalism topic had gotten so sort of hot online that 20 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:44,920 Oxford actually commissioned this book and you know, a friend, a friend of 21 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,560 mine, recommended me to write it, and so that's kind of how hot 22 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,760 the topic was. I've been interested in it for actually positions like it for 23 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:59,159 for many years, and the idea was to take it seriously instead of writing, 24 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,040 you know, kind of an ex pose book of how horrible it is. 25 00:02:01,159 --> 00:02:06,799 But it was to sort of clearly define the position, to give arguments 26 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,360 forward arguments against it. So you know, I'll define a position in a 27 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,919 moment, but you know, I spend sixty pages defending it one hundred and 28 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,080 ten pages critiquing it. So I really wanted to take these radical alternatives to 29 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:22,960 liberalism seriously as if they might be true. And so that's really what the 30 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,759 book is doing that very almost nobody else is doing. It also tries to 31 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,879 take the discussion to a much higher level than we often see, so, 32 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,879 you know, to move things up a little bit in terms of depth of 33 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,639 argument than what we see on Twitter or blogs or even you know, web 34 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:43,639 publications in general. And so I wanted to kind of show people how sophisticated 35 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,319 the position could be, what its attractions were, and you know, what 36 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,159 its weaknesses were. So so I think the book's doing something really unique. 37 00:02:50,199 --> 00:02:54,159 I mean, if you're really interested in trying to go in depth about whether 38 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,520 this view is true or not, or whether similar views or true another phase, 39 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,520 then that's why I wrote this book. Now, another thing about it 40 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:08,840 integralism is that it's proponents are oftentimes kind of vague about what they're after, 41 00:03:09,719 --> 00:03:14,240 and so I just you know, avoid being vague as much as possible. 42 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:19,400 And I have a kind of quick definition of it in three three conditions. 43 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,879 So this is sort of a God centered theory of the authority of government and 44 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:28,280 the authority of the church and their relationship. So, you know, the 45 00:03:28,319 --> 00:03:31,560 first thing is, you know, God has authorized the temporal ruler to promote 46 00:03:31,599 --> 00:03:36,680 the earthly common good of the community, pretty straightforward, especially for Christians. 47 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,240 The second is what makes the view catholic. It's that God has authorized the 48 00:03:40,319 --> 00:03:46,439 church understood is the Catholic Church understands church to govern the sort of eternal or 49 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:51,439 ultimate common good of the baptized members of that community, and to preach the 50 00:03:51,479 --> 00:03:55,759 Gospel to people outside of it. So that's you know, that's perfectly straightforward 51 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:00,520 as well. But here's an interesting little puzzle, which is that, look, 52 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,639 I mean their interests and agendas, church and state can conflict, or 53 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:09,039 they can work together, they can reinforce each other. So what's the ideal 54 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,479 relationship between them? And this is where integralism is unique. It isn't that 55 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,719 the church rules the state or the state rules of the church, or even 56 00:04:15,719 --> 00:04:19,839 that they're separate. They're integrated in a particular way. In spiritual affairs. 57 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:27,759 The church can direct Christian states to help to enforce its spiritual policies. So, 58 00:04:27,879 --> 00:04:30,560 for instance, if someone's determined to be a heretic in a church trial 59 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:36,199 or canonical trial, then there could be civil penalties if they don't repent of 60 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:42,360 their heresy. Same thing with apostasy and other kinds of sins, that they're 61 00:04:42,399 --> 00:04:46,639 sort of crimes within the church, but that the state would also treat them 62 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,439 as crimes or as in general things to be punished or discouraged. So for 63 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:56,839 instance, you could ban books in order to preserve uniformity a belief. So 64 00:04:56,959 --> 00:05:00,199 there's a kind of indirect sovereignty that the Church has over the state. Can't 65 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:06,199 take over agricultural policy, but it can say direct a variety of other factors 66 00:05:06,199 --> 00:05:11,959 about the state in order to help people achieve salvation, to avoid false belief, 67 00:05:12,639 --> 00:05:15,399 to in general enjoy the Christian life. So that's how I understand integralism, 68 00:05:15,399 --> 00:05:18,680 the sort of two moments of authorization of church and state, and then 69 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:24,839 the special indirect sovereignty that the church is over the state. This is really 70 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:29,360 interesting because I interviewed Tom Holland for this podcast earlier this week, and we 71 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,240 were talking about the Romans and how the Romans would have just approached this concept 72 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:38,480 of separation between church and state. The phrase would really mean nothing to them. 73 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,920 It would be sort of baffering, and so on that note, I 74 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:47,199 want to ask about the history of integralism, which is obviously tied up with 75 00:05:47,319 --> 00:05:54,319 the history of the Church and is most certainly most common among Catholics and the 76 00:05:54,399 --> 00:05:58,720 United States at least. And so with that in mind, you know, 77 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:04,439 it's obviously the history is obviously complicated because you know, halfway through the Church's 78 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:09,600 history there's this Enlightenment period where the separation of church and state sort of becomes 79 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,839 a thing in ways that people hadn't really thought about, and Catholics like to 80 00:06:13,879 --> 00:06:17,800 blame US Protestants and US Lutherans for that. It's probably fair in some ways, 81 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,519 but Kevin, what is the sort of how has an integralism? Sort 82 00:06:21,519 --> 00:06:28,480 of what's its arc inture? So this almost all of chapter two of the 83 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,759 book is about this, and that chapter is doing double duty. It's not 84 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,240 just telling the history, but telling the story of the dogma as it developed 85 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:41,240 in the particular church documents that seem to favor intogollalism over the kind of church's 86 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:45,160 current position. So I think it's a real treat because I think I'm able 87 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:49,079 to summarize, you know, a lot of interesting points of history. So 88 00:06:49,079 --> 00:06:53,439 then let me just begin with the story. The story really begins with the 89 00:06:53,439 --> 00:07:00,279 collapse of the Western Roman Empire. Because states decay and in many places there's 90 00:07:00,319 --> 00:07:04,000 no such thing as a nation state, the Church gradually expands in order to 91 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,759 take over the kind of state capacity that the Roman Empire had. So you 92 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:13,959 know, dioceses were originally Roman imperial jurisdictions. Pontiffis Maximus was the title of 93 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,079 Caesar, and so the church is just saying, look, you know, 94 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:20,000 people have these needs, you know, for legal services, healthcare services, 95 00:07:20,519 --> 00:07:26,040 all these kind of things, and we're going to provide those things. And 96 00:07:26,079 --> 00:07:29,959 so, you know, many cases over time, particularly in the early Middle 97 00:07:29,959 --> 00:07:33,439 Ages, you know, the papacy and the church hierarchy is kind of looking 98 00:07:33,439 --> 00:07:35,519 around and thinking, oh, you know, we're doing good. You know, 99 00:07:35,519 --> 00:07:40,879 we're helping people. Maybe there's something divine about about this arrangement. But 100 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:46,319 it wasn't really very well theorized until the High Middle Ages, when states in 101 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,040 Western Europe started to kind of coalesce and growing power, because then you can 102 00:07:50,079 --> 00:07:57,800 really get serious contests between pope and crown. And so that was the occasion 103 00:07:57,879 --> 00:08:01,040 for things like in the eleventh century with the investor or contest, but a 104 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:07,120 variety of other issues raised by Pope Gregory. The sevenths rule. After the 105 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,319 East West Schism, you know, and sort of not exactly a schism, 106 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:18,959 but an alienation between the Orthodox and the Catholics, the popes are able to 107 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,040 kind of centralize their power, including their temporal power, and to create a 108 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:28,959 uniform canonical legal code that specifies a whole bunch of special rights and duties for 109 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:33,039 the church and freeze the church from any rule by the state or any interference 110 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,279 in ecclesiastical matters. And this just sets up a huge amount of conflict between 111 00:08:37,399 --> 00:08:43,080 say, kings that want to try clerics for crimes in their own domains and 112 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,600 the Church saying, nope, we get to try and in canonical courts. 113 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,600 That was a big fight for a variety of reasons. So what happens is 114 00:08:50,639 --> 00:08:54,000 you've got this very powerful church that is so powerful that in many cases it 115 00:08:54,039 --> 00:08:58,200 has the power to depose kings. But then you've got these rising monarchies, 116 00:08:58,519 --> 00:09:01,240 particularly the French monarchy, but more and more and more nation states with time, 117 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:09,240 and this raises the question very acutely of what that relationship is between church 118 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,879 and state. Because what's unique about Catholicism is having this independent hierarchy, which 119 00:09:13,919 --> 00:09:16,600 is actually the pope is his own sovereign of it, the papal states. 120 00:09:16,639 --> 00:09:20,120 It's very different than almost any other religion where you have this sort of separated 121 00:09:22,159 --> 00:09:26,080 hierarchy that can greatly influence your country, can do things like depose a king, 122 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:31,279 and then you don't know who to follow anymore. So a number of 123 00:09:31,279 --> 00:09:35,039 people took kind of extreme positions one way or the other. The other said, 124 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,960 you know, look, many French people believe this that the king had 125 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,480 authority and ecclesiastical affairs, He could appoint his own bishops, for instance. 126 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,279 On the other side, where the kind of strong papal centralists or sometimes kind 127 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,200 of hierocrats, who thought that, you know, the pope could sort of 128 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,960 depose or make any king at will. It just had an enormous amount of 129 00:09:54,960 --> 00:10:00,799 temporal power. And the early integrals in the seventeenth century, they're not calling 130 00:10:00,799 --> 00:10:05,679 themselves integralists, but it is the position take a moderate view. So some 131 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:11,120 important I understand this view arose. It was best articulated in the seventeenth century 132 00:10:11,159 --> 00:10:13,879 as a compromise position between these two views. The thought here being, look, 133 00:10:15,519 --> 00:10:18,879 the king can't appoint bishops. That's a matter for the church, and 134 00:10:18,919 --> 00:10:22,720 the church can't just sort of run the state or just appoint all rulers. 135 00:10:24,279 --> 00:10:31,679 It can only direct policy, secular policy indirectly. So Cardinal Robert Bellarmine develops 136 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,240 this idea of the indirect power of the pope, defends it it at great 137 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,480 length, almost gets in trouble with Pope. Six is the fifth you know, 138 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:45,679 his book was almost placed on the index of forbidden books. But you 139 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:50,559 know, his view became in some ways the kind of ideal in Rome to 140 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,840 such an extent actually that he was canonized in nineteen thirty admitted Doctor of the 141 00:10:54,919 --> 00:11:00,679 Church in nineteen thirty one, So his influence extended a great deal of time. 142 00:11:00,759 --> 00:11:03,320 Now what starts to happen with the counter Reformation is, obviously you get 143 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:07,120 these very powerful Protestant monarchs. You also get powerful Catholic monarchs that don't really 144 00:11:07,159 --> 00:11:11,240 want the pope to a run things. So you know it's the Spanish crown 145 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,679 that runs the inquisition of the Church. So as these states get larger and 146 00:11:15,799 --> 00:11:18,399 larger, they start to pressure ignore the Church, and then eventually start to 147 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,360 pressure and try to control the Church more and more, all the way down 148 00:11:22,399 --> 00:11:31,120 until you get unification movements, that particularly Italian unification, that is gradually reducing 149 00:11:31,279 --> 00:11:33,519 the power or temporal power of the pope to almost nothing. So in the 150 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,440 nineteenth century have a number of popes, particularly Pope Pius the ninth and Pupel 151 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,039 of the thirteenth, they say, look, we're going to reaffirm not just 152 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:46,879 our theological authority, but to some extend our political authority. And so integalism 153 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:50,360 kind of becomes a thing in Western Europe again, in part because of the 154 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:56,120 sort of nineteenth century popes being just especially conservative and pushing back really, really 155 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:01,039 hard against attempts by various different movements a socialist, nationalist, liberal, to 156 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,559 degrade or reduce its power, and they produced a number of documents that make 157 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:13,200 it look like something lot of integralism is what the church teaches, and a 158 00:12:13,279 --> 00:12:16,000 lot of people understand it that way well into the twentieth century. So, 159 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,600 you know, Pope highest at Tense pontificate ends in nineteen fourteen, there's some 160 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,799 indications that he was an integralist in this sense. There hasn't been an integralist 161 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:30,399 pope since. And what starts to happen, particularly after the Two World Wars, 162 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:31,679 is that a lot of people in the Church are saying, well, 163 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,360 we want to be part of the post war order, and this is going 164 00:12:35,399 --> 00:12:41,480 to be an order of human rights, and that means universal religious freedom. 165 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,720 And so at the Second Vatican Council, you know, in the early sixties, 166 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,120 the most controversial document there was Dignatatas Shumane, which is the Church's declaration 167 00:12:50,159 --> 00:12:54,440 the right of religious freedom and part of the reason it's doing this is to 168 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,960 work out some inconsistencies people. Some people thinking the older medieval arrangements were good 169 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,559 our best, other people thinking they were totally terrible. And it produces this 170 00:13:03,639 --> 00:13:07,519 document which seems like it's kind of giving away the game to liberalism and defending 171 00:13:07,639 --> 00:13:13,000 universal religious toleration. And so it looks like the nineteenth century popes and all 172 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:18,159 the stuff that came before we're being set aside, because you know, Dagatas 173 00:13:18,279 --> 00:13:22,480 Humani says that the human person has a light right to religious freedom and it's 174 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,799 justified both in terms of reason and revelation. So once the tatas Humani came 175 00:13:26,799 --> 00:13:30,360 out, I mean Integralis, who were already a shrinking group, but they 176 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,960 became sort of total outliers in the Catholic Church. Many of them crowded into 177 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:43,320 the Society of Saint Pie's attent until about fifteen years ago when an extremely talented 178 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:48,440 Catholic philosopher at King's College, London, Thomas Pink, developed a new interpretation 179 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:56,559 of digging tatas Humani that would allow for Integralism to be a potential option for 180 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,720 the church in the future. It's not ruled out in principle, and I 181 00:14:00,759 --> 00:14:03,639 can go into the details of that, but I won't. But what PINK 182 00:14:03,639 --> 00:14:09,399 did is it kind of made it possible for Catholics to think that they could 183 00:14:09,399 --> 00:14:13,519 reject anything about liberalism or liberalism entirely but still be good sons and daughters at 184 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,759 the church, because there are many people at that time that were anti liberal 185 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,120 but saw Catholic traditionalists as too oppositional to the hierarchy. It's also the case 186 00:14:22,159 --> 00:14:26,879 that there were lots of young Catholics and young Christian intellectuals that kind of felt 187 00:14:26,919 --> 00:14:31,679 like they were excluded by American society, in particular on Western European society because 188 00:14:31,679 --> 00:14:35,600 of their conservative views on social issues, especially on abortion and LGBT questions. 189 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,840 And so there are a lot of people who felt like liberal order just actually 190 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,240 wasn't ever really going to tolerate Christians, and so maybe we should oppose it 191 00:14:43,399 --> 00:14:50,600 entirely. So PINK begins an intellectual movement that supplies this kind of opportunity, 192 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:56,000 intellectual opportunity to oppose the liberal tradition entirely, but also to be a Catholic 193 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:01,240 and good standing with the church. And then the the discussion starts to blow 194 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,720 up, starting twenty twelve, twenty thirteen gets really big after Trump and twenty 195 00:15:05,759 --> 00:15:09,279 sixteen for a variety of reasons. And then there's another couple of big jumps, 196 00:15:09,799 --> 00:15:13,679 like in twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, where this movement starts to grow. 197 00:15:15,559 --> 00:15:20,879 So there is the tour situation of the Early Middle Ages, the contest between 198 00:15:20,879 --> 00:15:26,440 pope and crown, and the High Middle Ages, the counter Reformation, theorist 199 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,720 working out a moderate position. It continuing, but then the rise of nation 200 00:15:31,799 --> 00:15:35,759 states following the French Revolution put the popes in a kind of defensive mode. 201 00:15:35,159 --> 00:15:39,360 They reaffirm some of these teachings. But then in the twentieth century the Church 202 00:15:39,399 --> 00:15:48,320 moves away and now there's been pushedback towards the older view. Hey, y'all, 203 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,399 this is Sarah Carter, host of The Sarah Carter Show. Thanks for 204 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,559 listening to the Federalist. Hey, folks, I love My Pillow and I 205 00:15:54,639 --> 00:15:58,960 love Mike Lindell, but you're the ones that helped build My Pillow in two 206 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,519 an incredible company it is today. 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Shop at my pillow 215 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:41,399 dot com backslash Carter to get the six piece towel set regularly seventy nine ninety 216 00:16:41,399 --> 00:16:45,720 eight, now only thirty nine ninety nine with promo code Carter or call one 217 00:16:45,759 --> 00:16:48,799 eight hundred and six s eighty five seven two two one shot my pillow dot 218 00:16:48,879 --> 00:16:52,519 Com backslash Carter promo code Carter or call one eight hundred six s eighty five 219 00:16:52,600 --> 00:17:02,399 seven two two one that's my pillow dot Com backslash Carter romocode Carter. How 220 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,960 tethered is the concept, especially as you just kind of traced it there and 221 00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:11,279 you know it's history in France, etc. How tied is that historically to 222 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,519 nationalism? And that isn't to say, you know, it's I'm not trying 223 00:17:15,519 --> 00:17:21,559 to argue that it's it's in some ways essential to nationalism, or that nationalism 224 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:26,200 is integalism. But it does seem to me that their histories match up fairly 225 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,400 neatly, at least in the last several hundred years. So is there's something 226 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:30,960 to that at all? Maybe I'm just asking this because I listened to a 227 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:37,440 podcast on Franco this week, But what is the relationship because and nationalism and 228 00:17:37,519 --> 00:17:41,720 fairly a fairly modern concept, at least as we see it today. So 229 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,759 I guess I'm just I'm wondering if there's a link. So there's one story 230 00:17:45,759 --> 00:17:48,440 in the twentieth century and then but a more complex story before. So in 231 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,759 a very important way, integalism is not nationalist, is anti nationalist because you 232 00:17:52,799 --> 00:17:57,240 know, this independent political unit of the Church is going to have enormous authority 233 00:17:57,319 --> 00:18:04,079 over every Catholic nation, arguably will their view every Christian nation. And so 234 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,240 you know, it's saying that like the nation is not entirely self governing, 235 00:18:08,279 --> 00:18:11,599 it doesn't you know, that's one of the key claims of nationalisms. That 236 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:17,319 nations have a right to self government and intergalsn't just denies this spiritual affairs. 237 00:18:17,519 --> 00:18:22,240 States do not have the authority to self government. And so historically, you 238 00:18:22,279 --> 00:18:26,279 know, in Western Europe, it was nationalist movements that were fighting against papal 239 00:18:26,319 --> 00:18:30,160 power. That was the nationalist movements. The Tiany Unification ended the papal states 240 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,839 in eighteen seventy. Variety of movements sort of boxed the pope into the Vatican 241 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:41,759 for a various periods of time. So before the twentieth century, interuralism and 242 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:48,720 nationalist sentiment or in so many ways opposed with the with actually the kind of 243 00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:53,880 exception of the Houstro Hungarian Empire, although that's so internal any diverse nationalism, 244 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,240 you know, it's kind of a weird, a weirder concept there. Twentieth 245 00:18:57,279 --> 00:19:06,720 century things change, in particular after the Second World War, but also even 246 00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:11,720 after the First World War, because a couple of things are happening. Liberalism 247 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,960 in the Anglophone world has seemed to be a lot more tolertive religion than liberalism 248 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:21,960 on the European continent, and so you have a more like French revolutionary liberalism, 249 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,400 a secularist liberalism, and so Catholics are kind of looking around these new 250 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,920 ideologies Marxism, fascism, liberalism, and they're looking at these options. They 251 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,519 say, well, liberalism wants to kind of put us into the shadows. 252 00:19:34,039 --> 00:19:41,240 Socialism wants to kill us. Traditional conservatism just doesn't have the power or influence 253 00:19:41,279 --> 00:19:44,839 to do what it can. The Pope can't save us on their own because 254 00:19:44,839 --> 00:19:48,720 the nation states are too powerful, they have modern militaries. So we really 255 00:19:48,759 --> 00:19:52,799 need is to make arrangements or support for Catholic fascist rulers. Now not all 256 00:19:52,839 --> 00:20:00,000 Catholics thought, there's many many anti fascist Catholics, many many fascist Catholics, 257 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:04,799 and and so they support you know, a variety of different dictators or temporary 258 00:20:04,799 --> 00:20:11,839 dictators Franco being the most powerful and popular for a time though you know earlier 259 00:20:11,839 --> 00:20:17,200 were on Mussolini, Adolphus and Austria for a little bit of time, but 260 00:20:17,279 --> 00:20:23,240 also Salasar and Portugal. So it's really Franco and Salasar that are the two 261 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:27,799 kind of fascists dictators, and Salasar is a little weaker, maybe call them 262 00:20:27,839 --> 00:20:33,200 quasi fascist, dictator, authoritarian or something. They give special privileges to the 263 00:20:33,279 --> 00:20:40,759 Church and are willing to use military power to suppress socialism and liberalism. So, 264 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:42,720 you know, I think a lot of Catholics felt like they were in 265 00:20:42,759 --> 00:20:45,079 a trap. You know, there was really nothing they could do. They 266 00:20:45,079 --> 00:20:48,359 didn't like fascism, but they thought, okay, you know, look, 267 00:20:48,079 --> 00:20:52,599 it's the best of a bad deal. And in fact, you know, 268 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:57,680 you have poppies. I think I think it's the eleven or the twelve making 269 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:02,440 a deal with Musolini basically saying, you know, look, you know, 270 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:08,359 the Pope can have a certain kind of independence in exchange for kind of protection. 271 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:15,119 And the Pope ends up regretting this tremendously because he's destroyed his moral authority 272 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:22,440 when Mussolini is attacking Ethiopia and doing Semitti Semitic stuff. So you know, 273 00:21:22,559 --> 00:21:30,000 that's been a complication about the Church's relationship to uh sort of fascist states. 274 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:36,799 But yeah, there's a pretty serious tradition of Catholic fascism. It died out 275 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:41,440 fairly quickly after the Second World War, but it was dead by the end 276 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,359 of Vatican too. You did have some hold over Francoists in the seventies and 277 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,960 so on, but but yeah, that element basically died. But I see 278 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,880 the rise of Catholic fascism as a kind of choice between which secular ideology or 279 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,880 we're going to Catholic's going to throw in with it. No, that makes 280 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,640 it. And maybe some franco Is still out there today. But on that 281 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,079 on that note, actually they are. They are. Well, I was 282 00:22:06,079 --> 00:22:11,319 gonna ask you now integralism in the United States at least, and I'm definitely 283 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,599 pronouncing around because you keep seeing integalism and I feel like that's the proper way 284 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,839 to say, because you wrote a whole book on it. But it's there's 285 00:22:18,839 --> 00:22:22,759 no subtle pronunciation. Some people say integralisms, some say integralism. Okay, 286 00:22:22,799 --> 00:22:23,799 great, I'm so glad to hear because I was actually going to ask you 287 00:22:23,839 --> 00:22:30,880 that question. So that's alves that. But on another note, the overlap 288 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,960 between integralism and populism in the United States right now is interesting. And if 289 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:41,960 people are looking at maybe the revival of Francoism in Spain or you'd see some 290 00:22:41,039 --> 00:22:47,319 flirtation with that France and Italy, and there's some overlap with the not the 291 00:22:47,319 --> 00:22:52,400 formal church but obviously orthodox Catholicism are what do you make of that sort of 292 00:22:53,599 --> 00:22:59,279 the populist the fact that the fact that right Now this is somewhat of of 293 00:22:59,279 --> 00:23:03,079 a popular if if you're looking at like Adrian for Mule, that's started coming 294 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:07,079 at it from a populist perspective, even if populists might not own Adrian for 295 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:14,759 Mule, that kind of post Trump interest, post Brexit interest in the in 296 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,119 the sort of concept of integralism. Now, what should we make of that? 297 00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:21,880 I mean, it's it's quite comes, it's quite complex. So, 298 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,640 you know, Trump lets a lot of kind of nationalist friendly populist groups out, 299 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,640 but the intervals never really fit very well there, even though they had, 300 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,920 you know, the National Conservitism Conference didn't invite various figures. I'm pretty 301 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,880 sure they never invited ver Mule, in part because he's not a populist. 302 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,319 He's an extreme elitist and he's he's not a nationalist. I mean, he's 303 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,319 openly said, look, we need a sort of Catholic version of the EU 304 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,640 and the Western hemisphere. That should be one of our aims. We should 305 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:53,119 have open borders for Catholic immigrants. So he just didn't really fit and wasn't 306 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,920 ultimately invited to speak, I think, and then the intervals themselves gradually grew 307 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:03,680 alienated from the national conservatism movement, and this is one of the reasons they've 308 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,079 been doing more outreach to the economic left and like the kind of Bernie Sanders 309 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,039 left, like with Sir Roba Maury's new book. So you know, they're 310 00:24:11,079 --> 00:24:12,920 they're this kind of floating sect and I think they thought they were going to 311 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,240 come in and be the intellectual leaders of national conservatism and say, well, 312 00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:21,079 you know, look, we're not pure nationalists, but we think nationalism is 313 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:25,519 better than the liberal international order, and so we're gon we're gonna support nationalism 314 00:24:25,519 --> 00:24:27,519 as a kind of second best. So that's I think one thing that was 315 00:24:27,559 --> 00:24:32,680 really going on is that the intervals were not nationalists, but they saw nationalism 316 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:37,880 as superior to liberal internationalism. So so it's a kind of complicated relationship. 317 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,680 And I think they thought that because they have this rich intellectual tradition, unlike 318 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,200 many of the other factions on the New Right, that you know, they'd 319 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,119 be able to sort of command things intellectually. But but they're achilles heels. 320 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,079 They don't really know how to get along with people. They didn't even get 321 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:56,319 along with other integralists, and so you know, it's also the case that 322 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,480 they're sort of mock and block strategy on Twitter is extremely counterproductive them. There 323 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:06,880 they cultivate a kind of groupie fan base of people, but they also just 324 00:25:07,599 --> 00:25:14,200 cut ties with so many influential people that you know, they kind of alienated 325 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,799 themselves right out of the New Right. So, you know, I think, 326 00:25:18,599 --> 00:25:22,880 yeah, that's the relationship I've seen between integralism and the integralist having kind 327 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:30,279 of elite intellectual sect and then wanting to kind of helm this this this populism 328 00:25:30,319 --> 00:25:34,039 and nationalism a moment without really being ultimately on board with all of it. 329 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,640 So yeah, the relationship to its intellectual is kind of complex, and politically 330 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,200 is a kind of complex. You're right to associate them, but I think 331 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:52,920 they thought they could sort of ride the horse of populism and nationalism into influence, 332 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,519 but that hasn't really worked out yet. The Washed Auto on Wall Street 333 00:25:57,559 --> 00:26:02,960 podcast with Chris Markoski. Every day, Chris helps unpack the connection between politics 334 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,400 and the economy and how it affects your wallet. Utility companies are having to 335 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:11,240 navigate between their safety and government mandated green energy transition. Is your local government 336 00:26:11,279 --> 00:26:17,119 pushing these ESG policies which should make problems worse in a disaster don't let the 337 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,559 government medal in the private sector. Whether it's happening in DC or down on 338 00:26:19,599 --> 00:26:22,720 Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watchdot 339 00:26:22,759 --> 00:26:26,359 on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get 340 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:33,759 your podcasts. And I think you know, probably some people on the New 341 00:26:33,839 --> 00:26:38,279 Right underestimated the power of the Barsteal Coalition, underestimated how much the barstl Coalition 342 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:44,880 kind of influenced or made up the comprised the faction of the Republican Party that 343 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,599 was interested in Donald Trump, or actually of the country. I shouldn't even 344 00:26:47,599 --> 00:26:52,279 say the Republican Party that was interested in Donald Trump. And my question to 345 00:26:52,359 --> 00:27:00,240 you is as a respite sort of from the pains of modern decadence, it 346 00:27:00,279 --> 00:27:06,440 actually really makes sense to me why you have the sort of trad wife trends 347 00:27:06,839 --> 00:27:11,519 on, like trad TikTok, like these sort of niches springing up. Because 348 00:27:11,799 --> 00:27:15,720 you can understand why this retreat to tradition and as you say, want a 349 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:21,519 tradition that is as intellectually rich as integralism is. It does make sense. 350 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,480 At the same time, it doesn't make sense for you know, the broader 351 00:27:26,599 --> 00:27:30,960 population. It seems to me something that's always going to be fairly niche in 352 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,000 the United States of America. Is that what we sort of saw with the 353 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:41,680 as you were just talking about, the attempt by integralists to really lead the 354 00:27:41,759 --> 00:27:44,559 New Right, there was I feel like there was a lot of momentum that 355 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,920 sort of ultimately dissipated. It's just it's appealing in some ways when you're in 356 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:55,920 the middle of the sort of decadent, highly secular culture, and maybe historically 357 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,000 that's also where it's gotten its power from and where it's been able to find 358 00:27:59,039 --> 00:28:03,240 support. But at the end of the day, in the US at least, 359 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,319 not to talk about Spain or Italy or anything like that, at this 360 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,640 point in the US at least, it seems to me it is so it 361 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,880 is so deeply liberal, classically liberal as a society. It's just the mentality 362 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:21,960 of an American. It's not a good fit. And that's partially an attack 363 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,519 that Catholics have been taking for for years, ever since they immigrated to the 364 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,480 US. And big numbers. Yeah, so this is a pretty pretty interesting 365 00:28:30,519 --> 00:28:36,920 place where integalism gets even wilder than it could sometimes seem. One thing to 366 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,720 note is that, you know, Catholics are at the height of their intellectual 367 00:28:40,759 --> 00:28:45,680 influence in the United States, and they're also at the height of their political 368 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,839 influence relative to everyone else, so they lead the conservative movement. But you 369 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,960 know, we until Nancy Pelosi retired, we had a Catholic President, the 370 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,279 Catholic Speaker of the House, in five Catholic Supreme Court justices. One hundred 371 00:28:56,319 --> 00:29:00,319 years ago, no one would have believed that was possible. Now, of 372 00:29:00,359 --> 00:29:03,319 course you have progressive Catholics, and the Conservatives say, oh, look, 373 00:29:03,319 --> 00:29:08,440 you're caltowing to progressive elites or what have you. But the point is that, 374 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:15,759 like Catholic elites are pretty influential, and so intellectual movements among Catholic elites 375 00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:19,079 can have a great deal of effect in terms of trickling down into the public. 376 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,759 Intervals, for instance, been working really hard to normalize the sort of 377 00:29:23,759 --> 00:29:29,559 tactics of Victor Orbon in the Republican Party. I think De Santis has absorbed 378 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,759 some of this, but it's been the Intervals and more than anyone who've been 379 00:29:33,799 --> 00:29:37,400 trying to normalize organism and the Publican Party that no Orbon, one of them 380 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:48,880 works for Orbon now. So so first there's there's sort of that sort of 381 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:55,640 line of influence. As far as actually getting to intergalism, I talked about 382 00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:00,599 this in chapter four. They've sometimes flirted with the plan, and I think 383 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,960 of how this would go, but it's based on an extremely elite heavy theory 384 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,200 of social change. The thought is, if you can get into power, 385 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,640 most people are sheep and will conform. And so the thought is, you 386 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,640 know, look, if you can co opt the relevant high institutions, that 387 00:30:17,319 --> 00:30:22,240 people you know, kind of fallow suit. This isn't really true, but 388 00:30:22,519 --> 00:30:25,160 it is something I think they think. They also think liberalism is doomed, 389 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,839 that liberals are going to destroy themselves, but they're going to leave most of 390 00:30:27,839 --> 00:30:32,200 the sort of governmental bureaucracy in place. So in the same way, like 391 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:37,359 the Soviet Union collapses and communists vacate the apparatus state apparatus and newer, more 392 00:30:37,799 --> 00:30:42,000 liberal leaning people came in, the same thing, you know, could happen 393 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:48,640 with liberalism in the United States where integrals leadership comes in, where the sort 394 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,599 of bureaucracies have been vacated. So in the meanwhile, what sort of Mule 395 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,599 and now Denean and others are doing is they're creating a kind of counter elite. 396 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,519 Hence, you know, Denean book on regime Change, a lot of 397 00:31:02,799 --> 00:31:08,240 Mule's writings about the judiciary. He wants they want to place this little counter 398 00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:14,400 elite into positions of power, the administrative state and the judiciary, and trying 399 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:15,799 to grease the wheels for that. And then I think history is going to 400 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,960 do the job for them less it's what they think in terms of liberals and 401 00:31:19,039 --> 00:31:23,839 being doomed once liberalism falls, their people are in place and then can come 402 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,319 to control the main centers of power. Now, look, this is pretty 403 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,759 you know, it's like I said, it's pretty well. But it's consistent 404 00:31:33,799 --> 00:31:37,279 with everything they're doing. It's consistent with their writing, is consistent with the 405 00:31:37,319 --> 00:31:41,759 little conferences that they're having, the way that they block people on Twitter to 406 00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:48,960 kind of protect their little community of people from challenge, the way in which 407 00:31:48,039 --> 00:31:53,279 you know they're trying to make inroads into the federal judiciary and so on, 408 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,119 and their public writings that liberalism is unstable and will collapse it should be replaced 409 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,160 with the new elite. Now, Dene's outlined all of this, but without 410 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:07,440 being specifically Catholic, whereas Vermul has some pieces spread around online about you know, 411 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:12,880 the strategy being specific specifically for Catholics. So I don't think this is 412 00:32:13,039 --> 00:32:16,400 exactly a secret, but it's the strategy they call integration from within. In 413 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:22,759 some contexts, they're not using the term integrat integralism as much anymore. They 414 00:32:23,079 --> 00:32:28,799 in post liberalism, but you know Denian's last chapter and regime change, I 415 00:32:28,799 --> 00:32:34,839 think it's called integration. So just sending clear code to people about what they're 416 00:32:34,839 --> 00:32:37,920 really for. So that's what I think is going on. They're trying they 417 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:43,880 hope that liberalism will fall and that they will be ready. The way of 418 00:32:44,079 --> 00:32:46,359 freedom came to be defined, and I'm thinking of a lot of actually conservative 419 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:51,640 Catholic thinkers in the twentieth century. Throughout the twentieth century was really interesting, 420 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:57,359 and on the one hand you have the far left and it spans the spectrum 421 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,119 in from actual communism to you know, this context liberation theologists, and on 422 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:08,160 the other hand you have these these ideas about freedom being defined an effusionist sort 423 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:13,200 of context. And over the course of the twentieth century, and this is 424 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,200 coming to a head now. You know, people like Vermuel would have a 425 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:21,400 very different definition of freedom, you know, than than people like Stephanie slated 426 00:33:21,559 --> 00:33:25,240 Reason, both Catholics, but both with very different ideas of what freedom is. 427 00:33:25,359 --> 00:33:29,440 And so much of this, I think for people who are making these 428 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:34,680 definitions today, it's just inextricable from the Cold War, from the sort of 429 00:33:34,839 --> 00:33:42,079 West versus the the uh, you know, the idea of communism versus liberalism. 430 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,640 And I want to ask how how the integralist sees freedom and how that 431 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:52,759 contrasts, perhaps with how the liberation theologist sees freedom. Here's a political philosopher 432 00:33:52,839 --> 00:33:55,559 a lot to say about the concept of liberty, but let's let's lay out 433 00:33:55,599 --> 00:34:00,400 to two concepts the verses. You know, it's all been called negative liberty, 434 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:07,039 and that's really freedom from interference by other people. So it's a kind 435 00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:13,800 of freedom of your own person to be protected against interference by others. But 436 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,000 then there's this idea of positive freedom. And positive freedom comes in a few 437 00:34:16,039 --> 00:34:20,960 flavors, but the one in which that vermial is going to be most concerned 438 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,280 with is the idea of freedom is self mastery. That is, people being 439 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:28,480 able to live a life of reason and virtue, free from being dominated by 440 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,599 their passions. So this is a classical ideal of liberty going all the way 441 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:36,440 back to the Greeks. The idea of non interference being a central idea as 442 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,440 a part of the theory is something that liberals tended to foreground, you know, 443 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:46,280 starting in the seventeenth century. So vermial is going to just totally reject 444 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:52,000 negative liberty is an important kind of liberty. Yes, sometimes non interference is 445 00:34:52,039 --> 00:34:57,960 important, but it's important because of this kind of broader rational freedom that's is 446 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,119 what of real value. It's also important that your freest when you have the 447 00:35:01,159 --> 00:35:06,719 correct ultimate ends, that is, you're actually aiming at the truth and the 448 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,440 faith. But I think he thinks, you know, reason sort of lines 449 00:35:09,519 --> 00:35:15,480 up with the faith, and so those won't be totally opposed. So I 450 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:21,960 think a Mules for instance, and the others as people who are very worried 451 00:35:22,079 --> 00:35:25,880 about the sort of dominance of the idea of negative freedom and want to stress 452 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:34,119 this ideal of positive freedom as reason and as self self mastery and situation of 453 00:35:34,159 --> 00:35:38,679 the virtues. So where a Stephanie, you know, I think she's going 454 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,039 to try to have both. I mean, she's gonna think, yeah, 455 00:35:42,079 --> 00:35:45,599 hon our farence is super important, but it actually facilitates positive freedom. So 456 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:50,360 there's not really ultimately some trade off that has to be made between the two. 457 00:35:51,559 --> 00:35:54,159 And so many Catholic libertarians or you know, Christian libertarians like myself, 458 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,800 I think that, you know, both forms of freedom are important, but 459 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,719 for formule, there's so much focused on the common goods, you know, 460 00:36:02,159 --> 00:36:06,880 there's so much, so little focused on the dignity of the individual, that 461 00:36:07,079 --> 00:36:09,559 yeah, negative freedom becomes I think a lot less important in his system of 462 00:36:09,599 --> 00:36:15,360 thought. Is there anything else? Well, one question I have is what 463 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,719 the practical And you get some of this in Denise new book, and he 464 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:23,320 talked about it here, but what the immediate sort of practical policy changes would 465 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,840 look like from an integralist perspective, Say, you know, if someone is 466 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,000 elected governor of Florida that is actually more overtly a follower of this, you 467 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:37,840 know, what sort of policies would be immediately on the table. What would 468 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:43,880 the envision sort of taking the reins of right off the bat. So what's 469 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,760 clear from what they're talking about is one, they want to reinterpret the fourteenth 470 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:55,400 Amendments to protect all feed of life, and so they want essentially to impose 471 00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,639 pro life policy from the federal level down. And they're kind of like to 472 00:37:00,679 --> 00:37:05,719 mock the idea of leaving abortion to the States and that you know, so 473 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,159 total ban on abortion, a total so a lot of it's a lot of 474 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:15,199 just straight Catholic stuff. They total ban on euthanasia, total ban on same 475 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:22,480 sex marriage and even same sex acts, sawomy, black anti blastphemy laws, 476 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,719 blue laws, you know, uh, you know, restrictions on drugs and 477 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:36,119 probably alcohol, making birth free. They're really big on trying to facilitate larger 478 00:37:36,159 --> 00:37:42,519 families. They would restrict your band, contraception, ban in pornography entirely. 479 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:50,199 So these are all things that they've talked about as nearby policies. When you 480 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,639 get closer to the ideal, things start to get kind of more extreme. 481 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:58,360 So when they used to talk about this really openly on Twitter, particularly between 482 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,480 twenty sixteen twenty nineteen, you know, for Mules said, well, you 483 00:38:02,519 --> 00:38:07,119 know, once it's kind of established, you know, every baptized person would 484 00:38:07,119 --> 00:38:10,880 be under the requirements of weekly mass tenants and that would include Protestants, so 485 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,719 you and everyone would have to have to have to attend mass. And you 486 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,119 know, then you could sort of ban heretical books, you could sort of 487 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:28,639 control educational curriculum and things of that of that sort. But as far as 488 00:38:28,679 --> 00:38:30,440 yeah, adjacent policies, this is something they're talking about. They've also got 489 00:38:30,519 --> 00:38:35,679 some sort of institutional restructuring agenda, so you know, for instance, for 490 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,239 mules and interpretation or theory of constitutional interpretation trying to set itself up as an 491 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:45,800 opposition to kind of originalism textualism, which I think would grease the wheels for 492 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:52,199 the federal judiciary to legitimize the modern nation state in order to sort of adopt 493 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,840 kind of robustly conservative set of values and to use you know, the regulatory 494 00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:02,679 state and so on in order to foster those value us. So, yeah, 495 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,000 and is there anything else just as we wind down here that you think 496 00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:12,000 is like widely misunderstood, even from like an anti integralism perspective about integralism, 497 00:39:12,119 --> 00:39:15,400 or even from the pro perspective that you know, because it gets it is 498 00:39:15,519 --> 00:39:19,559 and it must be frustrating for you, somebody who's studied this very closely to 499 00:39:20,199 --> 00:39:23,440 see it become such a sort of a football And I'm sure that's like interesting 500 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,440 for a number of reasons, but also a little bit frustrating as somebody who 501 00:39:27,519 --> 00:39:30,440 understands it very well. So are there misconceptions, anything that we haven't touched 502 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:36,000 on that comes up a lot in American politics or maybe even just in politics 503 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:42,719 in general world politics that you think is worth the spelling. Gosh, there's 504 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,440 a lot. I mean, the main thing to do is to separate integralist 505 00:39:45,559 --> 00:39:51,000 doctrine from what Savor mule Amari Denien and so on are up to. So 506 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:57,199 integralism has no particular association, say, with the ideas of the German legal 507 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:04,000 theorist Carl Schmidt. It has nothing to do with a particular necessarily form of 508 00:40:04,039 --> 00:40:07,440 government like a large state or a small state, or monarchy or democracy. 509 00:40:08,599 --> 00:40:14,480 It has nothing in particular to do with constitutional interpretation. So almost all the 510 00:40:14,559 --> 00:40:19,800 distinctives of the kind of twitter jet set integralists are just not intrinsic features of 511 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,519 integralism. And so if you want to get a grip on the doctrine, 512 00:40:22,519 --> 00:40:24,920 if you want to get a grip on thinking through what we might call the 513 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:30,519 ideal theory of integralism, and I really recommend reading, say Thomas Pink's work, 514 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,840 you can get that on all of it pretty much. When academ me 515 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:40,039 about e du reading a number of Paul Edmund Walstein's articles on the Josiah's Reading 516 00:40:40,679 --> 00:40:46,840 Thomas creen Allen, the Minister's book on Integralism on Manual Political Philosophy. So 517 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:52,719 I just really encourage people interested in the ideas too deep to delve into them 518 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:54,639 and to realize that, you know, there are a lot of different kinds 519 00:40:54,679 --> 00:40:59,760 of integralists with respect to the sort of thing that they support their strategies. 520 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,000 There's a lot of dissent from Verriola and the others, but they just don't 521 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:07,079 get a lot of airtime. So that's what i'd says, try to try 522 00:41:07,119 --> 00:41:10,679 to dissociate integralism as a as a system of thought that you might find of 523 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:16,519 interest from the kind of practical political spin that it's given high today. Yeah, 524 00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:21,440 that's so interesting and we really appreciate it. Kevin Valuer, author of 525 00:41:21,519 --> 00:41:25,119 All the Kingdoms of the World on Radical Religious Alternatives to Liberalism. That's from 526 00:41:25,119 --> 00:41:30,440 Oxford University Press. It's on sale September first. And Kevin, you have 527 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,159 a website as well that people can go to. Where should they Where can 528 00:41:34,159 --> 00:41:37,199 they find you online? Yeah, Kevin Value dot com. So it's just 529 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,440 my first and last name dot com and take you to the book page, 530 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:45,599 give you some good links to buy the book pretty cheaply, and you know 531 00:41:45,639 --> 00:41:50,360 you can learn more about me and my work and other things that I've written 532 00:41:51,079 --> 00:41:54,559 and value spelled V A L l i e R. Kevin, thank you, 533 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,440 Thank you so much for joining us and breaking all this down. Oh 534 00:41:59,519 --> 00:42:01,440 sure, very happy to do so. All right, well, we've been 535 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:06,079 listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Jasinski, culture 536 00:42:06,159 --> 00:42:07,960 editor here at the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, 537 00:42:08,039 --> 00:42:15,360 be lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray. You are right? 538 00:42:16,599 --> 00:42:17,519 What are you wrong