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Welcome back to the Path Went Chile
for part two of our series on the

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unexplained death of Karen coups in It. Robin, do you want to catch

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everyone up on what we talked about
in our previous episode. Well, this

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case took place in November of nineteen
sixty three and Karen coups in It was

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a twenty two year old actress from
an influential family in Chicago who was now

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living in West Hollywood and it had
gotten some bit parts on film and TV,

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but she was in a bad place
because she had a relationship with another

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actor named Andrew Pride, who did
not want to have an exclusive relationship.

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And when she became pregnant with his
child's her friends took her down to Mexico

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to have an illegal abortion. And
it seems like Karen's mental health was crashing

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because she was on a lot of
medication. She was acting very strangely on

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the last night that her friends saw
her alive at like a dinner party,

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And all we know is that when
Karen returned to her apartment, she had

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watched TV with two of her friends, who claimed that she went into her

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bedroom and appeared to fall asleep,
So They walked out later that night,

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and this was the last time she
was confirmed to be alive. But after

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not hearing from her for a couple
of days, her friends went to her

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apartment and discovered Karen's new, decomposing
body lying on the couch. At first,

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they figured her death might have been
a suicide or an accidental drug overdose,

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but the coroner discovered that her hioid
bone was missing, so he pretty

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much ruled that she had been strangled
to death and was the victim of foul

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play. They would go over a
bunch of different angles. They looked at

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her spouse, Andrew Pryne, who
had spoken with her on the night that

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she was last confirmed to be alive. They looked at another neighbor of hers

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named David Lang, who had apparently
joked about killing her and had a habit

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of drunkenly wandering into other people's apartments
in the middle of the night. But

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they couldn't find any definitive evidence pointing
to anyone. But the strangest angle occurred

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a few years later, when Karen's
death was somehow linked to the jfk assassination

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because she died only a few days
after the assassination took place, and there

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was a report of an anonymous woman
from California who called an operator and accurately

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predicted that the president was going to
be killed in a number of minutes.

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And of course her prediction turned out
to be true because JFKA was assassinated in

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Dallas right around that time period,
and years later, a conspiracy theories pushed

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forward the idea that Karen cups in
it was the anonymous choler and that her

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father had because he had once been
acquainted with Jack Ruby in Chicago many years

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earlier. Had I learned about the
assassination, told Karen about it, and

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when she tried to earn the authorities, they had her murdered in order to

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silence her. But of course her
family completely denounced this idea and thought it

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was a ridiculous conspiracy theory. But
regardless of Karen's death has still remained unsolved

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sixty years later, and regardless of
whether or not it was connected to the

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JFK assassination, we have no idea
who was responsible for her death. So

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anyway, even though Karen's death has
attentative connection to the Kennedy assassination, the

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assassination is not actually the main subject
of this episode. If you go online

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and delve into the conspiracy theories,
you'll find many lists of so called mystery

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deaths, as dozens of people connected
to the assassination supposedly died under mysterious circumstances

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in the ensuing years. You'll often
see Karen Cups in its name at the

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top of these lists because she died
only six days after JFK was killed.

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So, aside from Lee Harvey Oswald, you can infer that Karen was the

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first loose end in this conspiracy which
needed to be tied up. Well,

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I have to say that the word
thin does not even begin to describe the

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connection between Karen and the Kennedy assassination. In fact, I'd say the word

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emaciated would even be too generous.
So let's try to sum up this whole

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so called conspiracy. Earth cupson it
and Jack Ruby had supposedly been acquaintances in

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Chicago sometime during the nineteen forties.
But even though Ruby moved to Dallas in

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nineteen forty seven, and there's no
indication that he stayed in touch with Cup

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at all during the next sixteen years, Ruby decided to tell him about his

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key role in one of the biggest
conspiracies of all time. How exactly would

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that conversation go? Hey, Cup, long time no see. By the

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way, the President of the United
States is going to be assassinated soon,

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and I'm in charge of assassinating the
assassin before he can talk. And then,

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instead of telling the authorities about this, Kupp decides to tell his daughter

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Karen, who becomes very perturbed.
But instead of warning someone who actually has

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the power to prevent the assassination from
happening, Karen decides to travel over fifty

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miles from her home in West Hollywood
to Oxnard in order to call some random

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switchboard operator about ten to twenty minutes
before the fsassination is supposed to occur.

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The person responsible somehow finds out about
this and decides to murder Karen in order

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to convince her father to stay quiet
instead of, you know, killing Cup,

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the guy who spilled the beans to
begin with. Kind of odd that

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these conspirators supposedly killed over one hundred
people to cover their tracks but never went

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after the guy, who was a
highly respected calumnist and TV personality had had

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the power to potentially blow the lid
off the whole thing. That's the part

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that doesn't make any sense. If
you're going to go after someone, why

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his daughter? How would you even
know that she was aware of this information?

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But no one close to her could
tell you that she knew it.

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I mean, after the President's killed, after Karen's killed, If I knew

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something, don't you think I'd say
like something, Yeah, I had heard

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rumbling of that. I didn't really
think anything was going to be true.

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I didn't know he was going to
get killed, but I knew that Ruby

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didn't like him. Whatever. I
mean, no one could link Karen to

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this. No one can link her
dad to this. And again, like

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we said on the last episode,
if I get word that all of a

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sudden, someone of high power is
going to be executed, the last person

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I think I'm going to confide in
is my daughter, much less my daughter

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who's struggling, Like did he tell
his wife? Like that's who? I

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might tell my husband that information,
or I might tell another high end business

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associate who's also involved with the mafia
or people in the circle, But I'm

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not going to go to my daughter. It just seems like a really big

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stretch. And like you said,
Robin, how many people are we willing

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to take out but not the individuals
that supposedly had the most information the way

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you just laid it out, Robin, it's like, well you put it

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that way, it just seems that
this is so incredibly unlikely, Like all

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of these ridiculous things would have to
be in alignment, like this loose connection

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to Jack Ruby from fifteen years ago, and then somehow Ruby's going to tell

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him all about it. Like it
is just so far reaching that we would

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think that all of these things would
have to come into alignment for Karen to

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be the person that did the calling. And we also have to consider Karen's

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state of mind. Karen could barely
get through a dinner properly without seeming really

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off, But yet we're going to
think that she's cognizant enough to plan ahead

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to drive fifty miles away to Oxnard. The logistics don't make sense because she

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seems to be getting real time updates
from an individual that allows her to change

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the time she was on Pacific time. So she originally said the President's going

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to die at like ten ten,
which would be twelve Central time in Dallas,

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but then she changes it to ten
thirty, which would have been twelve

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thirty in Dallas, which is when
Kennedy was actually killed. Yeah, so

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I just have a hard time believing
that somehow Karen's going to go all that

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way and she doesn't have a cell
phone, there is no internet, so

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how would these real time updates be
coming into her, Like who would be

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feeding her that information? Just seems
incredibly unlikely. Yeah, Like researching the

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JFK assassination, you're going to find
all these mystery death lists where they say,

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oh, these hundred of people were
killed because they knew something about the

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Kennedy assassination. But they're the most
tentative connections. Like I remember reading one

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where the assistant prosecutor at Jack Ruby's
trial died of a heart attack shortly after

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the trial took place. So of
course he had to be murdered because he

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knew too much. But it turns
out, oh, he was like a

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fifty five year old man who was
obese and a heavy smoker and a heavy

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drinker, So of course he's going
to die of a heart attack. There's

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nothing mysterious about it. It's not
a conspiracy, sort of like with King

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Tut's tomb, right, Like so
many of the different things that were like

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linked to a curse, so many
of the deaths, Like some of them

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you might like stop him, pause
and go, oh, that's kind of

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weird, But a lot of them, it's like they died like twenty years

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later, and it's like that,
are we still connecting this to King Tut's

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tomb. The person who first attempted
to link the Cups in It family to

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the Kennedy assassination was conspiracy theorist Penn
Jones, even though the real link is

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that Cup apparently knew Jack Ruby two
decades before the assassination took place. I

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mean, I'm sure Ruby knew a
lot of people throughout his life, but

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that doesn't mean he's going to tell
all of them that he's involved in a

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plot to kill the president. In
his book Forgive My Grief, Jones wrote

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that Karen made her anonymous phone call
days before the assassination, when the records

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clearly show the call happened the very
same morning. So that's already a major

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red flag about his research skills.
Now, I will admit that I do

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find the whole story about the anonymous
female caller who predicted Kennedy's death to be

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very intriguing. I'm pretty sure the
incident did happen, and the switchboard operators

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were telling the truth about what they
heard. What it seems like everybody's initial

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impression was that the caller was nothing
more than a mentally disturbed woman who probably

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had no actual knowledge of the assassination, and it was just a bizarre coincidence

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that she made a wild prediction which
somehow came true. But I just don't

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see how any reasonable person could possibly
believe the caller was Karen Cup's in it,

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especially since both operators seemed certain it
was a middle aged woman. Oxnard

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is over fifty miles away from Karen's
apartment in West Hollywood, and I just

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don't see why she would travel that
distance and wait until the last minute to

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warn anybody about what was going to
happen, not to mention that she would

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have to travel fifty miles back to
West Hollywood before making another two hour drive

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to Palm Springs later that night with
Andrew Prine and two other friends. Yes,

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Prine said that Karen was pretty upset
about the assassination, but so was

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the majority of the country. There's
a difference between being upset because the president

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was murdered and being upset because you
knew about it beforehand and were unable to

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prevent it. So logically, I
think we can completely close the book on

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Karen's death being connected to the Kennedy
assassination and explore the case from other an

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well, I mean, I remember
being a teenager and be enough that Heath

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Leder died, you know, and
it's like you know, and then you

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have like Brittany Murphy and the like. I mean, like people feel like

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they know these celebrities and John F. Kennedy was he was a celebrity and

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the president. I mean, so, so that is not abnormal to me

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that she was so sad, And
that's one of those things just like for

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us, it's where were you on
nine to eleven? You ask our parents

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where were you when JFK was killed? And that was a defining moment in

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people's life, just like nine to
eleven, two thousand and one, when

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we wake up and we go like, oh my god, our world's forever

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changed and our country's forever changed because
of this, this devastating attack, and

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the person who represents your country was
killed that day on when JFK was assassinated.

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He was a beloved human who was
supposed to make these amazing promises come

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true, and he brought with it
this fresh attitude right that really probably would

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have changed history. And he was
murdered. So I don't think saying someone

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was super upset would indicate anything other
than she was super upset that JFK had

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been killed. It's I don't know. This is just a very bizarre stretch

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when you start talking about all of
the elements that have to line up.

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The only thing that I think is
beyond crazy amazing is this call where the

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girl, like you said, predicts
the time he's going to die. He's

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going to die at twelve ten when
his motorcade passes a certain spot. Well,

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then she's talking to someone on the
phone or dialing someone on the phone

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and says, wait a minute,
there's been a delay. I'm actually going

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to predict another time now. And
both those times should have been accurate had

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everything actually followed through. So unless
those call operators are just making that up,

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which that would be wild as well, someone knew something. Do we

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know in the sixties did you keep
these kinds of calls? Law Ondoor recorded,

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How did we get this information just
their word, I think, just

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their word. Like I'm sure there
was a phone record of that a call

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actually took place, but they were
able to determine that it was that it

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originated from Oxnard, but I'm not
sure they would have recorded calls back in

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nineteen sixty three, So there really
isn't a recording in existence of this woman's

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voice. But I can tell you. I mentioned in our last episode that

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I went to the True Crime Podcast
Festival in Dallas and decided to pay a

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visit to the JFK Museum. And
while I was there, I actually bought

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a book called Case Closed, written
by a journalist named Gerald Posner, and

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it pretty there's a very effective job
at debunking all the conspiracies surrounding the JFK

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assassination. So controversial opinion here.
I now believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted

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alone and there was no conspiracy.
And that's why I do not believe at

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all that Jack Ruby or Earth Cups
and It or Karen Cups and IT were

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had any involvement in JFK's assassination in
this conspiracy, Robin, get ready for

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hate mail. I'm sure I will, yes, Oh my gosh, no,

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it is really interesting when you look
at that case specifically. I mean,

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anytime you start going down a rabbit
hole. Like Man, I've watched

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the History Channel so many times and
watched on anything anything, I walk away

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convinced every dime I ended show.
I'm like, Holy held the World's end

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In whoa Aliens Live among Us?
I mean, these people can link some

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pretty amazing things to to something you
didn't really think about, to make it

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quite believable. And I do think, like you guys were saying, there

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are instances where scenarios occur and it
happens to be this kind of random luck,

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bad luck, whatever's going on,
where items seem to be linked and

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they just simply aren't. They're correlated
with something, They're slightly related, but

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we strapplate quite a bit from it. Karen's not related to the JFK murder.

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I just there's there's no way,
No, she definitely isn't. And

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I don't know. I'm I'm lean
like sixty percent towards there was no conspiracy.

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I think that certain things become almost
part of the public consciousness movies like

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JFK. It becomes like this is
the real thing. It's sort of how

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Milton's Paradise Lost or Dante's Divine Comedy
like the Infernal Part become like how we're

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informed of Hell when really their works
of fiction, But people believe that hell

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is exactly how it was described in
those books, if you're a believer in

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such things. So I think that
there are forms of art that can kind

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of seep into the public consciousness and
make us believe that this is absolutely true.

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And you get really famous corners who
are working on the case, lots

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of really like didn't like doctor Henry
Lee work on who else Zero Waxed worked

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on it? Yeah, And so
you get people like that, and we

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trust these individuals. They are the
very top of their game and they are

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00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:56.639
so highly respected, and so I
think it is really easy for a lot

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of us to go, well,
if they're saying that that's the way that

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happened, or have they believe that
there was a conspiracy, then I'm going

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to trust in what they're saying,
because all of these other people have a

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vested interest aka like you know,
the government in saying that it didn't happen.

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And I think there can be many
government conspiracies, and the government can

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act against politicians. But I just
don't necessarily think that that is the case

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with Jfki. Okay, I don't
want to burst anyone's bubble, but have

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you guys ever watched like, okay, so these let's say, a true

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crime show, or when you see
these really well respected people sitting around the

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table talking about, quote who killed
Brittany Murphy or whatever. When you see

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00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:40.799
these people, do you think there's
any potential that, just like an expert

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witness at a trial who's getting paid
to testify on some behalf right, that

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they'll say whatever scripted for them for
celebrityism and things like that, because,

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believe it or not, I've quote
recorded a reality television thing and there's nothing

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real about it. Like I'm reading
facts from a script and going, I

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hope this is true, you know, like I'll say it because you're going

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to pay me for it. But
I often wonder when I watch these amazingly

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renowned people, I'm like, m
at some point, have they gone to

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a place where they get paid to
say whatever the show wants them to say.

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I wonder that with people like you
know, Joe Rogan and stuff,

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where he has an incredibly popular podcast, but he really pushes things, and

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I often wonder does he actually believe
this or does he just do this for

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00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:36.640
the money, for the listens,
for the ads. And a lot of

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the information is quite incendiary and very
controversial, but you push that envelope.

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You people like that, and like
Alex Jones, and I think you can

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have the same thing with expert witnesses
because it's sort of like whatever's going to

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00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:52.559
get you the most attention, and
so I think the people are fallible.

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We can't always trust everybody just because
they have the credentials. They are human

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beings at the end of the day. I feel like it's so easy to

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get kind of conned into that as
a as a professional and someone who says

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like whoa, I keep getting these
big paychecks and I keep getting featured on

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these shows, and if I'll do
these more controversial cases and I'll say inflammatory

249
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things or I'll kind of make these
wild statements, I'll kind of become known

250
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as that expert. And I don't
know, It's always interesting to me because

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I literally every show I watch,
I will walk away going, WHOA,

252
00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:27.319
they convinced me that that is a
possibility. And then I'll watch a show

253
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that does a one eighty on that
idea and it completely slams it in the

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face. And I believe that one
until I rewatch the other one, do

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00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:37.839
you, So it's like, yeah, that certainly applies with JFK because you'll

256
00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:41.400
find both pro and anti consery documentaries
and books about it. So it all

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depends on much you read, interpret
and what I read last, Like,

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00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:48.839
just show me what I read last, because it's fascinating, you know,

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And they do such a convicted testimony
of what they believed happen, and they

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show you such powerful correlations and related
elements that make your mind go, well,

261
00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:03.519
it is possible, and now it
starts to become more probable the longer

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I listened to it. It's just
very interesting. That was my sorry that

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00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:12.119
it's my divergent conversation. It's a
good point because I think that correlations and

264
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:17.039
tenuous connections, if we hear enough
of them, we start to believe that,

265
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of course these are related and of
course there's something meaningful here, because

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our human brains are always looking for
that connection. So I think that is

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really easy to be blindsided by individuals
who may have invested interest in framing a

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certain narrative we look at things like
what was that documentary Robin on John Benet,

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00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:41.640
and it was like very slanted towards
like her brother killed her yea,

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And yes, people have been very
critical of the way that they've framed everything,

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especially looking back years later, the
position that they took and how firm

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00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:53.440
they were in their belief. And
there was a lawsuit over that too from

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the Ramsey family, so a lot
of people have thought, well, maybe

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this conclusion wasn't as believable as they
tried to paint it out to be.

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So really, when you eliminate the
JFKA conspiracy theories, this is a case

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00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:10.599
which showcases an awful lot of warning
signs that the victim either died by suicide

277
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or accidentally. On our last episode, we discussed the odd rambling handwritten notes

278
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found in Karen's apartment, and I
think this particular sentence is pretty telling.

279
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Quote my figures fat and will never
be the way my mother wants it.

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Even though Karen's father was by all
accounts a very well liked and well respected

281
00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:32.119
man, and Karen seemed to have
a good relationship with them, the same

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00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:34.200
could not be said about her mother, Essie Cups. In it, she

283
00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:37.880
was known for being a loud,
obnoxious, and foul mouthed woman, and

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ever since Karen was a child,
Essie gave off the impression of being a

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stage mum who wanted her daughter to
become a big star. Essie pushed Karen

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to break into acting, but the
problem is that she wasn't overly talented.

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00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:55.200
That's not to say Karen was a
bad actress per se, but she had

288
00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:59.799
a rather limited range and nothing about
her really stood out. Because she came

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00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:03.519
for an influential family, Karen was
able to get a lot of meetings with

290
00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:07.480
prominent people both on Broadway and in
Hollywood, but she rarely ever got substandard

291
00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:12.279
roles. Even though she was getting
some parts on television, her acting career

292
00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:15.839
wasn't exactly setting the world on fire, and it was clear that she was

293
00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:21.720
feeling immense pressure to live up to
her mother's wishes. Like those notes described,

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Essie was obsessed with her daughter's weight
and introduced her to crash dieting and

295
00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:30.000
diet pills at age thirteen. It
was clear that Karen never thought her weight

296
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:33.799
or looks were good enough, and
at her mother's encouragement, she even got

297
00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:37.839
some plastic surgery on her chin,
nose, ears, and eyes. When

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you look at the circumstances, it's
easy to see how Karen would end up

299
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:49.039
using diet pills and other prescription drugs. That is so heartbreaking. I think

300
00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:56.640
about my baby girl and my bonus
babies and thinking about if my world centered

301
00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:02.599
around them needing to be something so
I could feel like I'm something and pressuring

302
00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:06.440
them to say I don't know,
I'm just the exact opposite. Like Ray

303
00:22:06.519 --> 00:22:08.160
comes to me and says like I
feel embarrassed that I have a gap in

304
00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:11.720
my teeth because of my braces,
or I feel like I'm not pretty,

305
00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:15.440
or I'm too skinny, or I'm
too tall or these kinds of things.

306
00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:18.599
I'm like the opposite where I'm like, You're perfect, You're so great,

307
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:25.079
right, Like I mean to know
that so many people have family members who

308
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are the reason they so questioned themselves, they so hate who they are.

309
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And for Karen, I don't even
know that she really had this quote desire

310
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to chase this dream. It's like
she is one of these child stars who's

311
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:42.319
being crafted into you will do this
path. I need you to be something

312
00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:48.039
in this realm so that we matter
right and that we're important. And just

313
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.799
like many many people you'll see in
the industry, you go, oh,

314
00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:56.799
their fathers, who, Oh,
they're uncles who okay, because they're not

315
00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:02.079
the most talented. They're not someone
who may you believe their character or cry

316
00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:04.319
and laugh in these kinds of things. But there's somebody it's a privilege.

317
00:23:04.359 --> 00:23:10.519
It's the name that gets thrown around
where someone of immense talent who doesn't have

318
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:15.000
that foothold may never get an audition. So I feel sad for Karen and

319
00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:18.319
her mother here because you can tell
her mother wasn't in a happy space,

320
00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:23.359
or she would be celebrating the woman
and the little girl that Karen was and

321
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:27.920
is, and whoever she was would
have been enough. And for Karen,

322
00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:33.079
she needed that. You could tell
she desperately needed that, and that means

323
00:23:33.079 --> 00:23:36.640
something was lacking for her mom too, that her mom was likely struggling with

324
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:41.799
similar demons that Karen was dealing with. So man, just sad, just

325
00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:45.200
very very sad for both women.
I think Karen's mom is what we would

326
00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:52.160
call today an almond mom, right
because she's somebody that doesn't understand how damaging

327
00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.559
her behavior can be on her daughter. And Karen will be what we would

328
00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:57.759
call today a NEPO baby. And
I don't mean that in like a derogatory

329
00:23:57.880 --> 00:24:02.240
way, just that the fact that
her parents, and you know, her

330
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:04.680
father's name, and the influence that
they had opened a lot of doors for

331
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:08.519
Karen. But we also have to
wonder how much of that did Karen really

332
00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:12.400
truly want to do, and how
much was her mother's influence or what her

333
00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:17.599
mother believed that she should be doing, Because when you're constantly rustling with your

334
00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:21.079
weight and you're trying to fit into
a certain size, like, I know

335
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:25.519
what it's like. I remember in
my late teens early twenties I did modeling.

336
00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:29.640
It. I remember what it felt
like walking into the agency, having

337
00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:33.480
the modeling agent be like, you
look fat, let me measure your hips,

338
00:24:33.559 --> 00:24:37.720
and then measuring my hips and they're
thirty three inches, not even close.

339
00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:42.720
They're well within the normal realm of
what models hips should be. But

340
00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:48.200
yet you get a complex over time
when somebody's constantly telling you that, like

341
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:51.319
you shouldn't eat, that you shouldn't
do that. If you're a sensitive person,

342
00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:56.000
you can internalize that, even more
so when it's your mother. So

343
00:24:56.119 --> 00:25:00.880
I think that at this point,
what Karen's hopes and dreams are come conflated

344
00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:04.000
with what her mother's hopes and dreams
are, and what Karen's standard of beauty

345
00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:08.160
is has become her mother's standard of
beauty that she seems to pushed upon her.

346
00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:11.720
And I think Ashley makes a great
point that her mother is clearly dealing

347
00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:15.119
with a lot and she seems to
be projecting it onto her daughter. And

348
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:19.720
who knows what the relationship she had
with her mother was like. And I

349
00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:22.880
mean it, it's just really really
sad, like you said, for both

350
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:26.720
women. Okay, so not okay, So Jules, you're talking about your

351
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:30.599
Yeah, I'm not laughing at your
hips getting measured, but I'm laughing because

352
00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:32.880
when you said that, I went, oh my god. I was in

353
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:37.400
college, walking across campus and I
remember I had tried to do like modeling

354
00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:41.519
before, tried to do like fun
things for a fashion place by my home.

355
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:45.240
But I've never been tiny. I've
always had like, you know,

356
00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:48.559
a little bit of a bigger frame. And I was on college campus and

357
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:52.519
his man called me over to one
of his little tables at the green and

358
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:55.240
he said, you are so beautiful, and I said, oh, thank

359
00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:57.759
you. You know, walking with
my nerd backpack on, and he said,

360
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:00.640
I really want you to come try
to model for me. He's like,

361
00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:04.359
you would be the greatest plus size
model. And I was like,

362
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:07.559
oh, oh okay, and I
okay, plus size models are stunning,

363
00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:11.200
first of all, it's like one
of my favorite things. But I'm not

364
00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:14.200
a big girl. I'm not a
small girl, but I'm not a big

365
00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:15.559
girl. And he said what we
could do is we would pin the clothes

366
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:19.480
to you because you're a bigger person, but you're not quite the right size

367
00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:22.839
to be a plus size model,
but you'd make a great plus size model.

368
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:26.680
And I just remember, like I
thought in that moment, I was

369
00:26:26.680 --> 00:26:30.240
like do I cry or laugh,
hate myself, or just like think this

370
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:33.640
guy's an absolute idiot. And thank
god I was in a space where like

371
00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:37.599
I was such a nerd that I
just didn't care. So I started laughing

372
00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:40.160
and I was like, I think
I'm gonna pass and I walked up.

373
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:41.359
But man, I think about that
still. I mean, at thirty nine

374
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:44.720
years old, I think about this
time when someone's like, you'd be a

375
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:48.200
great plus size model, and here
I am a size what ten, you

376
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:51.440
know, and I'm going, yeah, that's not okay. So the pressure

377
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:55.240
they put on us now much less
back in the sixties, where they're showing

378
00:26:55.240 --> 00:26:59.160
you what a beautiful woman looks like, you know, and I think we

379
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:02.680
get skinny. Actually the beauty gets
SKINNI or the older we're getting. And

380
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:07.000
I'm grateful that now they're starting to
show real women in ads. But for

381
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:10.559
Karen, Karen would have been in
a situation where she's going, not only

382
00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:17.119
are the is the industry abusing me. My mom is maybe subconsciously or not

383
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:21.319
consciously, but abusing me and telling
me that I'm not enough. I don't

384
00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:23.799
think she wanted anything to do with
this industry. I really don't. I'm

385
00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:29.000
so sorry that happened to you,
Ash, that's awful. But honestly,

386
00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:32.880
at the time, in the two
tens, if you were above a size

387
00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:36.039
six, you were considered to be
plus sized, and they would be like,

388
00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:38.680
oh, we'll just shoot it that
way. Now plus size now it's

389
00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:42.640
a lot more open and inclusive,
Like thank you Rihanna from really opening things

390
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:48.759
up to everybody and making fashion reflective
of the population, not just of a

391
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:51.559
size two. But I remember,
like when I used to do it,

392
00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:55.519
that was like, you know,
mid two thousands, and it would be

393
00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:57.559
like, if you're not a size
two, if you're fitting a size four,

394
00:27:57.640 --> 00:28:02.559
then you're doing life style modeling,
so you couldn't do really runway.

395
00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:06.319
Now it's a lot more flexible,
but they would say if you're over size

396
00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:10.200
six, you're plus size, which
is insanity. Like we know that that

397
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:15.039
isn't true, but that was the
toxic environment of the modeling agencies at the

398
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:18.839
time. And this guy just sounds
like he just really was creeping on you.

399
00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:21.720
You'd be a perfect plus size model, Like, and I always wonder

400
00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:25.119
about dudes on a campus walking up, I just want to take your picture,

401
00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:29.000
Like, oh, it was like
Rodney alcohola but but no, that's

402
00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:33.559
what I thought of the dating game. Yes, absolutely, now it's absolutely

403
00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:37.319
wild. I mean, look at
our cartoon of the three of us,

404
00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:41.000
and look how skinny my neck is
that our artist did. Clearly, I'm

405
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:45.039
not a plus size mom. You're
a beautiful, beautiful woman. I would

406
00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:47.279
love to be a I wouldn't care. I wouldn't care. I just I

407
00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:53.759
teach people that my next two skinny
on my picture. So shortly before her

408
00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:57.079
death, we have an account of
Karen showing up at a dinner party held

409
00:28:57.079 --> 00:29:02.799
by her friends Mark and Marshaddard,
who said she was clearly under the influence

410
00:29:02.839 --> 00:29:07.000
of something. Karen also shared a
story about finding an abandoned baby on her

411
00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:11.200
doorstep, which turned out to be
false. As odd as that story might

412
00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:14.599
sound, it's not hard to imagine, like we talked about in Part one,

413
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:18.759
why Karen dreamed it up. Remember, just four months earlier, Karen

414
00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:22.960
had traveled to Mexico to get an
illegal abortion, and you can understand how

415
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:26.160
she might have felt guilt ridden over
this and perhaps concocted a fantasy story or

416
00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:30.759
dream about rescuing an abandoned baby as
her way of dealing with the situation.

417
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:36.160
It makes twisted sense that she would
tell the story to Andrew Pryne, the

418
00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:38.960
father of her child, and the
goddards who took her to Tijuana and paid

419
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:42.559
for her abortion. And of course, after Karen's death, there was a

420
00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:48.200
shocking revelation that she'd constructed threatening notes
and sent them both to Andrew and herself.

421
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:52.000
So she clearly couldn't deal with the
fact that he wanted to date other

422
00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:56.319
women and wouldn't have an exclusive relationship
with her. It seems like she was

423
00:29:56.319 --> 00:30:00.319
treated like a object by him,
though that she he was his person who

424
00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:06.359
really needed someone to want her,
to love her, to value her,

425
00:30:06.839 --> 00:30:10.920
and it doesn't sound like she was
shy about expressing her feelings towards him.

426
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:15.079
She gets pregnant with his child,
and honestly, that feeling would be like,

427
00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:18.440
oh my god, he loves me. He thinks I'm beautiful, he

428
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.000
thinks I'm talented, and I'm safe
with him, and now we're going to

429
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:25.559
start this family with a baby.
And then he says, Hey, Karen,

430
00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:30.079
I wanted nothing to do with this
as a long term, serious relationship.

431
00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:32.319
I do not want a family with
you. I do not want to

432
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:37.200
be exclusive with you. I just
cannot imagine what that would feel like,

433
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:41.000
and to be already dealing with other
issues as well. So he just sounds

434
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:47.240
like he used her when she was
convenient he was there. So it's almost

435
00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:52.559
like Karen is caught up in this
kind of constructed dream of hers that she

436
00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:56.440
has already written what their story looks
like. Andrew had a very different view

437
00:30:56.480 --> 00:31:00.839
of what they were and who they
were going to be, and that's really

438
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:04.559
hard to rectify. That is hard
to mentally deal with for anyone, much

439
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:10.599
less again, Karen has many,
many, many pokers in the fire.

440
00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:14.119
Of her mental health right now.
It's not just the relationship with Andrew,

441
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:18.880
but it is not helping that she
has that kind of unhealthy, toxic dynamic

442
00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:22.759
with him where she thinks it's genuine
and she wants more and he doesn't,

443
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:30.599
and she's literally taking prescription meth anthetamine
amongst other you know, anthetamines that she's

444
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:33.799
taking, and a myriad of other
drugs. Therese were only three that we

445
00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:37.279
listed. There was like thirteen.
So somebody who already has fragile mental health,

446
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:41.519
I don't think taking meth is going
to help the situation. So I

447
00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:45.359
think Karen was dealing with a lot
of different things, and I think it's

448
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:49.400
really easy to judge somebody if they're
doing something that would be akin to stalking.

449
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:53.920
But I do think given the situation, I can completely understand if she

450
00:31:55.039 --> 00:32:00.799
was having like almost a mental break
or a psychotic episode, because having to

451
00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:05.880
go and have this illegal abortion would
be incredibly traumatic, crossing the border,

452
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:08.640
going with your friends. The man
that made you pregnant in the first place

453
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:13.759
has basically abandoned you, and then
when you come back, he wants to

454
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:16.880
see other people, and so you're
left to grapple with the loss of this

455
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:21.599
baby that you may or may not
have wanted. Either way, it's difficult.

456
00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:25.240
And then this man has just left
you. So I can see how

457
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:30.359
she's dealing with very complex emotions and
it could cause very troubling behaviors when coupled

458
00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:36.759
with methamphetamine and all these other drugs. Karen was definitely going through a lot

459
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:39.359
of personal turmoil at this time.
But in the end, this case pretty

460
00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:44.640
much wound up going against the norm
for this type of investigation. We've covered

461
00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:47.240
many cases on a respective podcast where
the police were quick to write off a

462
00:32:47.319 --> 00:32:52.200
victim's death as accidental or suicide,
while their friends and family kept insisting it

463
00:32:52.279 --> 00:32:57.640
was foul play. But here Karen's
friends seemed ready to accept that she took

464
00:32:57.640 --> 00:33:01.680
her own life or accidentally overdosed.
Then the coroner discovered the broken highoid bone

465
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:07.000
in her throat and the whole thing
turned into a murder investigation. I will

466
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:09.799
say that, in spite of Karen's
many personal problems, I had my doubts

467
00:33:09.799 --> 00:33:14.720
this was suicide because I'm not sure
what the method might have been. Since

468
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:16.880
Karen had a lot of different drugs
in her medicine cabinet, and some of

469
00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:21.359
their bottles were empty, you can
easily assume that she swallowed a bunch of

470
00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:23.559
pills to take her own life.
If that was the case, I have

471
00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:27.960
a feeling that she would have vomited
something up. But nothing was found at

472
00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:30.039
the scene, and I'm not sure
if any traces of drugs were found in

473
00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:34.480
Karen's system. I mentioned this earlier, I think in episode one. But

474
00:33:34.599 --> 00:33:39.319
the reality is is that if she
were trying to complete suicide and that highoid

475
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:44.400
bone is going to be broken,
if you had found something around her neck,

476
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:47.039
a ligature, which still could have
been homicide, right, I would

477
00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:52.720
see them quickly saying, oh,
look, she tried to hang herself or

478
00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:59.480
she you know, she was trying
to succeed herself. But there wasn't There

479
00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:02.240
was nothing there. And that bone, while it's fragile and it'll break,

480
00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:07.320
you've got to have the right pressure
and the right angle to have that break.

481
00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:12.239
And as as a suicide victim,
as someone who takes their own life,

482
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:15.159
I just don't see how that would
happen. I don't think you would

483
00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:19.440
fall and hit it. I don't
think that that would occur. It seemed

484
00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:24.960
like she was entertaining someone that she
was existing in a normal realm when she

485
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:29.440
was killed. Because there's coffee brood, it's sitting on the floor. There's

486
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:32.239
a bunch of cigarettes sitting there.
She has a coffee pot on the floor

487
00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:37.880
with her. There's specs of blood
on the couch. She was an entertainer

488
00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:39.719
and she needed like what Like I've
said over and over again, she needed

489
00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:45.639
people there. I just don't see
her going away. She was craving someone

490
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:49.840
to save her and no one did. You want to know how this hide

491
00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:52.079
bone could be broken? I'm the
boat to tell you James Elroy's theory.

492
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:55.960
Well, let's do it. Come
on, James. One person who seems

493
00:34:57.039 --> 00:35:00.920
convinced that there was no foul play
in Karen's case is noted author James Elroy,

494
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:06.519
who has written such popular crime fiction
novels as La Confidential and The Black

495
00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:10.480
Dahlia. In his book Crime Wave, Elroy devoted an entire chapter to the

496
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:16.440
Karen cups in a case and made
some interesting discoveries in his research. Elroy

497
00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:21.280
seemed intrigued by the fact that a
book was found in Karen's apartment which was

498
00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:25.000
open to a particular page which stated
that one should dance in the nude in

499
00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:30.719
order to free their inhibitions. Elroy
theorized that perhaps the reason Karen's body was

500
00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:36.880
found in the manner it was because
she decided to perform some nude dancing in

501
00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:39.599
the apartment that night, but possibly
due to the fact that she was on

502
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:44.400
drugs at the time. She slipped, fell and hit her throat on something

503
00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:49.159
before landing face first on the couch. If Karen wasn't strangled, then this

504
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:52.320
could explain the broken hyoid bone in
her throat. I don't know, I

505
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:55.440
don't know. I don't know.
I feel like if you feel that bone

506
00:35:55.719 --> 00:35:59.199
like I mean, you can feel
it, it's pretty flexible. It moves

507
00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:02.960
around it's own was like someone has
to hold pressure and press it down for

508
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:09.480
that to break. I just don't
think that someone's gonna slip and fall and

509
00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:14.159
break just that bone. Nothing else, not her arm, not her leg,

510
00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:19.559
not her shoulder, not her you
know, clavical nothing, just that

511
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:24.800
bone. I don't buy it.
I think someone wanted Karen sexually and didn't

512
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:30.519
get it. They were frustrated with
her erratic behavior, They were in a

513
00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:34.639
fuss with her. They wanted to
hurt someone, and she was vulnerable.

514
00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:39.239
I could see Karen just being such
a perfect target for someone so to sexually

515
00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:44.639
abuse her or to emotionally abuse her
and then get what they want out of

516
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:46.840
her. So I don't buy it. I think James L. Roy is

517
00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:51.519
a wild man, crazy person.
And don't you think that if she had

518
00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:53.960
broken the bone and somehow she wasn't
able to get oxygen, wouldn't she be

519
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:58.199
like clutching her throat or something.
Yeah? And where's the blood coming from?

520
00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:01.719
Like there respects of blood all over
the count from what James Alroy is

521
00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:05.920
a great fiction writer, But if
you put this scene in one of his

522
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:08.199
novels, I don't think anyone would
believe it. No, And James,

523
00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:10.559
I'm sorry, I don't know you, so you're probably a fabulous human.

524
00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:15.360
I just this theory. I don't
agree with you. Ever seen a La

525
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:19.880
Confidential of the movie basically it was
so good good Yeah, and Black Daddy

526
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:22.480
is fabulous. I think I've actually
read your book. James, just disagree

527
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:27.880
with this one. So the biggest
wild card in this case is the competency

528
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:30.719
of the coroner, doctor Harold Kate. Doctor Kade was known for being an

529
00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:36.079
alcoholic with a history of ratic behavior, so there's been some speculation that he

530
00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:40.519
either misdiagnosed the broken hioid bone and
came to the incorrect conclusion of homicide,

531
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:45.559
or even worse, actually broke the
hioid bone himself during the autopsy. Well.

532
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:51.719
Performing another autopsy shortly after Karen's death, Kate allegedly told a colleague quote,

533
00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:54.239
at least I didn't break the hied
bone on this one. To give

534
00:37:54.280 --> 00:37:59.159
you an idea of Kate's credibility.
In nineteen sixty six, there were no

535
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:04.239
less than three cases in which deceased
victims were exhumed because the findings on Cade's

536
00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:08.119
original autopsies were challenged. In fact, a couple of innocent people actually wound

537
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:13.519
up being wrongfully convicted of murder because
of these errors. So Cade was ultimately

538
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:17.559
forced to resign and wound up facing
charges of gross negligence. This means it's

539
00:38:17.639 --> 00:38:23.800
not implausible that Cade was completely out
to lunch on this case. I don't

540
00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:29.400
think, yeah exactly. I think
that we have this reality that the you

541
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:31.800
know you're you're talking about, even
where he's saying there's a hand, a

542
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:36.719
certain hand being used, how do
we know that. I mean, when

543
00:38:36.760 --> 00:38:42.400
you talk about these medical examiners,
specifically in the sixties, I just think

544
00:38:42.440 --> 00:38:45.079
that there is a problem when you
say, Okay, we're going to pin

545
00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:49.639
everything on what the autopsies said,
and so you know doctor Cade being an

546
00:38:49.639 --> 00:38:53.280
alcoholic, so be it. I
don't think that is what the crux of

547
00:38:53.320 --> 00:38:58.920
saying he's not a great doctor would
be. It's a stressful profession, Dennis

548
00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:01.360
doctors. They all struggle with addictions. So not the biggest thing. But

549
00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:07.639
this is just like, who's our
malick? Doctor malick doctor? Yeah,

550
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:10.599
doctor Gay is better than thank you. I was just about to say,

551
00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:15.679
at least he's a little bit better
than that. However, there is a

552
00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:21.159
problem when you start to say that
these medical examiners, these coroners, that

553
00:39:21.239 --> 00:39:23.920
they are making these conclusions, and
then you start to see questions in their

554
00:39:23.960 --> 00:39:29.719
future analysis of death, or you
start to see a historical review of what

555
00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:32.440
they said and they're wrong in certain
cases. Now, all of a sudden,

556
00:39:32.599 --> 00:39:37.239
everything they've said becomes a question mark. Doesn't mean they were wrong,

557
00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:42.559
but it definitely means I struggle do
we trust it a thousand percent? And

558
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:46.639
very rarely do I actually give one
hundred percent confidence to any kind of medical

559
00:39:46.679 --> 00:39:51.559
report. Because there's so much pressure. You don't know how many cases they're

560
00:39:51.559 --> 00:39:53.519
dealing with at the time. You
don't know what information they've been given at

561
00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:58.559
the time, you don't know who
has asked for the information, So they're

562
00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:01.440
in a very precarious situation. You
should just given their career much less.

563
00:40:01.480 --> 00:40:06.920
Doctor Kage struggling with different kind of
issues as well. There's an element of

564
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:10.639
subjectivity too, And when you've got
somebody saying something like, oh, was

565
00:40:10.679 --> 00:40:15.960
a left handed perpetrator, you can
understand that with certain things like knife wounds,

566
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:20.199
when they'll talk about you know,
there's a certain pressure how something could

567
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:23.280
be applied, or when somebody has
sustained a bunch of different wounds that they

568
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:27.960
believed that the perpetrator was right handed
or left handed, and that type of

569
00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:32.440
a thing. But with the hihoid
bone, there's no finger bruising on her

570
00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:37.960
neck that we are aware of that
would like lead this corner to leave this

571
00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:43.440
medical examiner to believe this. So
it just feels like he just pulled it

572
00:40:43.480 --> 00:40:46.199
out of thin air and it doesn't
feel very credible. And then when we

573
00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:50.880
have him talking to a colleague,
at least I didn't break the hioid bone

574
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:53.559
on this one. A month after
Karen's autopsy, it's like, well,

575
00:40:53.559 --> 00:41:00.360
are you referring to Karen's keys or
is this another individual that you've exactly that

576
00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:04.599
you broke their highoid bone. And
then all those other exhimations, those are

577
00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:09.440
just the cases where family members likely
pursued this with law enforcement and then the

578
00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:15.039
bodies were exhoomed. Who knows how
many countless other cases that he messed up.

579
00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:17.840
Yeah, it's always scared to be
when we find out about wrongful condictions

580
00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:22.599
just because some medical examiner misinterpreted the
evidence and testified about it at an open

581
00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:25.239
court. And then when you find
out that they were wrong and that this

582
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:29.840
person was innocent, then, like
Ashley said, you wind up questioning every

583
00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:32.599
single case this person has worked on. And I can see why there would

584
00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:37.079
be some question about whether his ruling
in Karen's case was the correct one.

585
00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:42.880
Now, in spite of James Elroy's
theories, police still considered Karen's death to

586
00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:46.639
be an unsolved murder. I do
think that Elroy's explanation that Karen fell over

587
00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:50.800
and crushed her throat on something while
dancing in the nude is a bit of

588
00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:54.840
a stretch. I mean, I
do think it's possible that Karen did accidentally

589
00:41:54.840 --> 00:41:59.960
fall over and maybe broke or highoid
bone, but not because she was down.

590
00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:04.519
There was a towel found on the
floor in Karen's bathroom, which seemed

591
00:42:04.519 --> 00:42:08.239
to suggest she showered shortly before she
died. Since her bathrobe was draped over

592
00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:14.400
a chair, it's possible Karen exited
the bathroom after showering, but something happened

593
00:42:14.440 --> 00:42:16.719
before she had a chance to put
the robe on. If Karen was high

594
00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:21.559
on drugs, she simply might have
tripped or passed out, which caused her

595
00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:24.320
to land the wrong way and to
damage her throat. The other explanation,

596
00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:29.480
of course, is that Karen's death
was an accidental overdose and that doctor Kade

597
00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:34.039
accidentally broke her high oid bone himself
during the autopsy. In order to cover

598
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:37.159
up his mistake, Kade ruled that
Karen was strangled to death and never bothered

599
00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:44.039
to explore other possible explanations which didn't
involve murder. This might be the reason

600
00:42:44.119 --> 00:42:47.480
we don't know specific details. Okay
to play Devil's advocate, though, If

601
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:52.079
doctor Kade's the one who broke her
highoid bone, he's the only one doing

602
00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:58.159
the autopsy, so unless she gets
exhumed later, like what does anyone else

603
00:42:58.239 --> 00:43:00.239
know? So, I mean I've
thought about that four two So like people

604
00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:04.199
that I've cared about that an autopsy's
been done, I'm like, well,

605
00:43:04.559 --> 00:43:07.159
I mean, unless we asked for
it to be done again, how do

606
00:43:07.239 --> 00:43:10.199
I know that that's even true?
Right? You trust that what they say

607
00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:15.480
is accurate. So the fact that
he would lie and say the highoid bone

608
00:43:15.559 --> 00:43:19.719
is broken to cover his own rear
end, what's the benefit of that.

609
00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:22.719
I mean, I definitely think he
couldn't. Don't don't doubt what I'm saying.

610
00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:27.199
I think he definitely could have.
But what does that benefit unless he's

611
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:30.320
concerned that there could be a second
autopsy performed or she could be exhumed down

612
00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:37.400
the road, I feel like we
still haven't ever heard was a sexual assault

613
00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:40.360
exam performed or was there any sign
of any kind of damage to her body

614
00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:45.079
as regard to an assault, because
there isn't information. There's almost like all

615
00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:49.679
we know is that highoid bone and
that's it. There's nothing else detailed in

616
00:43:49.800 --> 00:43:52.239
her autopsy, which is odd to
me, and that they were left handed

617
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:57.920
right right right, Like we know
that, yeah, since you imagine the

618
00:43:57.920 --> 00:44:00.800
sexual assault that he is surprising that
we don't really have any evidence either way,

619
00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:05.719
Like, they've never said anything to
indicate she was sexually assaulted, which

620
00:44:05.719 --> 00:44:08.719
may be due to the decomposition,
maybe they were unable to tell. But

621
00:44:08.920 --> 00:44:13.639
you would think that there would be
something definitive to point to if she had

622
00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:17.159
even consensual sex or was assaulted prior
to her death. So it is kind

623
00:44:17.159 --> 00:44:22.320
of surprising that they never really came
to a conclusion on that one. I

624
00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:25.039
gotta say, when I first started
delving into this case, my initial instinct

625
00:44:25.079 --> 00:44:29.400
was that there was no foul play
and this was nothing more than an overdose

626
00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:34.440
or a tragic accident, which became
a homicide investigation because of an incompetent coroner.

627
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:38.480
However, there are still some issues
which bother me, specifically the fact

628
00:44:38.519 --> 00:44:43.679
that when Edward Ruben and Robert Hathaway
left Karen's apartment that night, they were

629
00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:46.079
certain that they locked the door behind
them, but when the Goddards showed up

630
00:44:46.119 --> 00:44:50.719
three days later, the door was
unlocked. Now, this might be a

631
00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:54.599
simple case of Ruben and Halthaway misremembering
things or not locking the door as thoroughly

632
00:44:54.639 --> 00:44:59.119
as they thought, but if what
they said is true, then this suggests

633
00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:02.400
that someone else entered Karen's apartment after
they left, and since there were no

634
00:45:02.440 --> 00:45:07.119
signs of forest entry, Karen might
have opened the door and let the person

635
00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:10.639
inside herself. The lockdoor detail is
one of the reasons I'm inclined to think

636
00:45:10.679 --> 00:45:15.880
that either Reuben or Hathaway had nothing
to do with Karen's death, because if

637
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:19.159
they just told the police that they
left the door unlocked, then it's easier

638
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:22.400
to believe that another suspect could have
entered the apartment and killed her. Now,

639
00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:25.920
both men claimed that they left because
Karen kept falling asleep on the couch

640
00:45:25.960 --> 00:45:30.480
and went into her bedroom. This
is why they decided to turn down the

641
00:45:30.519 --> 00:45:34.119
volume on the television, and since
the TV was still running at a low

642
00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:37.880
volume when Karen's body was discovered three
days later, it was probably never turned

643
00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:43.239
off. I have a feeling that
Karen was probably sleeping in the bedroom until

644
00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:46.079
Andrew Prime woke her up when he
called to check in on her at midnight.

645
00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:50.599
Now that she was awake, Karen
might have been compelled to go take

646
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:53.400
a shower, and was shortly after
this when she unlocked the front door.

647
00:45:54.159 --> 00:45:58.480
It seems unlikely that Karen would have
answered the door in the nude, but

648
00:45:58.599 --> 00:46:00.360
she may have been dressed her her
bathrobe. Would she open the door and

649
00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:06.199
let someone inside? Events could have
transpired which led to Karen removing her robe

650
00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:09.320
or having it forcibly removed by the
person who ultimately strangled her to death.

651
00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:14.239
Due to the state of decomposition our
body, I don't think they were able

652
00:46:14.239 --> 00:46:16.760
to determine if Karen was sexually assaulted, but that may have been a motive

653
00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:23.239
for her murder. But who could
the perpetrator have been. It's bizarre because

654
00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:27.599
when you said that she had all
these people into her house because she had

655
00:46:27.639 --> 00:46:30.840
this great television, and yet she
still might have been living in this kind

656
00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:35.519
of uttered disarray because of her mental
health. It is very interesting. Ruben

657
00:46:35.559 --> 00:46:37.880
and Hathaway are there. If it
had just been Reuben, if it had

658
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:43.320
just been Hathaway, it would be
incredibly suspicious. But both men say,

659
00:46:43.719 --> 00:46:45.800
yeah, she was our friend.
We all knew each other, and she

660
00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:50.599
kept falling asleep. We actually kept
watching TV when she went to bed,

661
00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:53.880
and then we slipped out. I
mean, that's a very plausible story.

662
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:59.480
Andrew called and checks on her later, also a very probable story. And

663
00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:02.639
then you go, now, who
came by at such a late hour or

664
00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:07.960
early in the morning. I'm still
stuck on that coffee. There was a

665
00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:14.119
cup of coffee brood, there was
a pot of coffee on the floor.

666
00:47:14.679 --> 00:47:19.000
It almost seems to me like she
woke up the next morning and she's trying

667
00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:22.400
to get around for the day,
and then someone comes by. Then somebody

668
00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:28.400
calls her. Then somebody knocks on
the door, and like we keep saying,

669
00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:32.639
I think she would have answered for
anyone she knew because she was lonely.

670
00:47:34.159 --> 00:47:36.880
She didn't feel like she was loved
by her family, she didn't feel

671
00:47:36.920 --> 00:47:38.960
like she was loved by the industry, she didn't feel like she was loved

672
00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:44.639
by Andrew. And yet she was
always around people, even when she was

673
00:47:44.719 --> 00:47:46.719
sick, when she's struggling with her
eating disorder, she's at a dinner party,

674
00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:52.079
when she's overwhelmed by this phantom baby
that's left. She's at a dinner

675
00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:57.119
party with her friends. She's answering
the phone, hoping Andrew will want a

676
00:47:57.159 --> 00:48:00.800
relationship with her. So oh,
I think anyone could have knocked on that

677
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:06.639
door, knowing she was vulnerable and
taken advantage of her. Also important to

678
00:48:06.679 --> 00:48:13.119
point out about doctor Kade. He's
a coroner, and I think it's important

679
00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:19.559
to remind everybody that coroners are elected
officials, and in certain jurisdictions you can

680
00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:22.519
have a coroner who has no experience
whatsoever. They're just a reputable person that

681
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:28.440
gets appointed very little training. Medical
examiners are typically the ones who have this

682
00:48:28.679 --> 00:48:34.320
significant medical training. Now, you
can be a doctor and not trained to

683
00:48:34.360 --> 00:48:38.199
do thorough autopsies and still be so
reputable you get elected as a coroner.

684
00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:44.239
So that's also anytime I hear a
coroner being personally a hair drestion. In

685
00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:47.480
some places too, you don't have
to be a doctor. You could be

686
00:48:47.599 --> 00:48:52.159
a you could be a high school
dropout. I have seen jurisdictions. I

687
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:55.239
remember working in case one time with
a sheriff's department. You're right, Jewels,

688
00:48:55.559 --> 00:48:59.760
and I literally reading about this man
and it's like, okay, here's

689
00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:02.239
the corner and I'm reading. I'm
reading, and I'm like, corner medical

690
00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:05.960
examiner. Remember the moment I sat
there, I said, those are so

691
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:09.079
radically different, and I look this
guy up. He literally never finished high

692
00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:14.000
school, which doesn't mean anything,
but he has no he was a fire

693
00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:19.679
like a fire rescue volunteer, no
medical training and legitimately had done like two

694
00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:23.480
thousand autopsies, and I'm going with
what training, Like, they didn't send

695
00:49:23.559 --> 00:49:28.440
him to training, they elected him. And it's a very small town.

696
00:49:28.480 --> 00:49:30.559
And I remember thinking, like,
God, bless, like this man is

697
00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:37.880
used in multiple areas to help with
death investigations and he's not at all trained

698
00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:42.679
for it. So that's also to
doctor Cave's disadvantage when we look at the

699
00:49:42.679 --> 00:49:46.400
evidence. We do know is that
maybe he's an amazing doctor. But you

700
00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:52.039
could be a pediatrician or a dermatologist, and you would yourself say, I

701
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:57.119
have no business looking at a death
investigation, you know, but if you

702
00:49:57.159 --> 00:50:00.920
were appointed and you got that role, you would prefer warm the job,

703
00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:06.119
whether you have the training or not. I called Katee a medical examiner,

704
00:50:06.159 --> 00:50:09.239
so I like confused and conflated the
two job titles because he a doctor in

705
00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:13.039
front of his name. That was
just like an assumption on my part.

706
00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:15.320
But it is very likely you could
be any type of doctor. We don't

707
00:50:15.320 --> 00:50:19.199
even know if he was a medical
doctor. Yeah, I could be a

708
00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:22.199
dentist. I mean, like you
know, and I could see a dentist

709
00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:23.760
me like, I'm damn good with
teeth. But God only knows if it's

710
00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:28.320
not an odontologist. JUNI like,
it's not done. You don't want to

711
00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:30.960
go there? Yeah, I'm not
back. I always chease, Like when

712
00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:31.800
someone comes in the shop, they're
like, oh my god, run,

713
00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:36.679
are you a doctor in art?
And I'm like murder and they go oh,

714
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:37.400
And I'm like, not that kind
of doctor, you know, Like

715
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:45.000
I always chase PhD not m D. Like. Well, for years,

716
00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:49.119
there was a lot of suspicion about
Andrew Prine, with the potential motive being

717
00:50:49.119 --> 00:50:52.039
that he snapped and killed Karen once
he found out she'd been sending him the

718
00:50:52.039 --> 00:50:57.800
threatening notes. However, we know
Andrew was at his apartment at midnight when

719
00:50:57.840 --> 00:51:00.719
he phoned Karen, and doctor Kade
believe she was killed at a round twelve

720
00:51:00.800 --> 00:51:06.840
thirty am, though given his serious
credibility issues, I can't even be sure

721
00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:09.960
if that time of death is even
close to accurate. But if Karen was

722
00:51:10.039 --> 00:51:15.199
killed at twelve thirty, then this
means Andrew would have had to rush over

723
00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:19.920
to her apartment and murder her within
a half hour before returning to his place

724
00:51:20.199 --> 00:51:23.679
and spending the next few hours hanging
out with Reuben and Hathaway. That only

725
00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:29.800
makes logical sense if Karen said something
to Andrew during that phone call which gave

726
00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:35.079
him the sudden impulse to kill her. One thing I'm not entirely clear on

727
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:38.679
is if Andrew even ever knew that
Karen was pregnant with his child and had

728
00:51:38.719 --> 00:51:43.960
gone down to Mexico for an abortion. Given that Andrew wasn't interested in a

729
00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:47.519
serious exclusive relationship at this point,
I don't think he would have been interested

730
00:51:47.559 --> 00:51:52.360
in being a father to Karen's child, So if she told him about the

731
00:51:52.400 --> 00:51:55.079
abortion over the phone, I'm not
sure that would have been enough to compel

732
00:51:55.159 --> 00:51:59.960
him to murder her, unless she
told him she was planning to blackmail him

733
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:05.079
or something. I don't know.
It's obvious that Karen was much more obsessive

734
00:52:05.239 --> 00:52:08.559
about Andrew than he was of her. Given her mental health status, it

735
00:52:08.599 --> 00:52:14.039
makes a lot of sense, and
even though they weren't in an exclusive relationship,

736
00:52:14.519 --> 00:52:16.960
Andrew seemed to think highly enough of
Karen to keep spending time with her,

737
00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:21.559
given that they had went on an
outing to Palm Springs together only one

738
00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:25.360
week earlier. I certainly don't think
it's one hundred percent impossible that Andrew could

739
00:52:25.360 --> 00:52:30.480
have been the killer, but there's
just no real motive or any physical evidence

740
00:52:30.519 --> 00:52:34.800
such as fingerprints which places him at
the scene. I do think it's very

741
00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:40.000
telling that after Karen's parents spent years
essentially trying to curtail Andrew's life by publicly

742
00:52:40.039 --> 00:52:45.840
branding him as a murderer, Cup
finally admitted in his autobiography that he believed

743
00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:50.679
Andrew was innocent. It's not often
you'll see a murder victim's family change their

744
00:52:50.719 --> 00:52:53.199
tune like that, so they must
have had a good reason to believe that

745
00:52:53.239 --> 00:52:59.039
Andrew had nothing to do with her
death exactly. So Andrew, for me,

746
00:52:59.360 --> 00:53:02.800
Andrew was not a stand up boyfriend. Andrew was not somebody who was

747
00:53:02.840 --> 00:53:09.639
a helpful figure in Karen's life.
But I also feel like Andrew's smart enough,

748
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:14.400
Like he was getting these threatening notes, he was very well aware that

749
00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:17.079
she was. Well, maybe he
wasn't very well aware, but he had

750
00:53:17.119 --> 00:53:22.599
gotten her pregnant. It's like we've
seen dumb murders where someone goes, Okay,

751
00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:25.320
I'm gonna just take this person out, and it's so obvious it would

752
00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:30.519
be me. I don't know that
Andrew was that dumb. Andrew's checking on

753
00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:35.400
her, Andrew's concerned about her.
Andrew is very upfront about the issues they

754
00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:39.280
were facing, what his stance was
with the relationship. He seems very transparent,

755
00:53:39.400 --> 00:53:43.440
like I'll tell you I was not
a great boyfriend. I will tell

756
00:53:43.480 --> 00:53:47.559
you I'm not husband material. I
will tell you that I was still talking

757
00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:52.239
to Karen, and I was the
last person to talk to her. It's

758
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:58.039
very it'd be very dumb if it
was Andrew. Andrew had motive to keep

759
00:53:58.039 --> 00:54:00.880
her quiet and get rid of her
because she was obsessed with him. But

760
00:54:00.960 --> 00:54:05.599
that also makes him a huge obvious
target. And I just don't know that

761
00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:08.000
he was that dumb. He had
a lot going on for him, and

762
00:54:08.559 --> 00:54:13.239
Karen seemed to be struggling so bad. Was she really a risk to him?

763
00:54:13.320 --> 00:54:15.280
Do I mean? Or was she
just so? And he almost felt

764
00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:20.079
sorry for and responsible for in certain
ways that he kept that relationship too,

765
00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:22.000
But he cared about her. But
I just don't want to be your husband,

766
00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:28.119
you know now. On the other
hand, Karen's family felt much differently

767
00:54:28.159 --> 00:54:30.719
about David Lange, and on the
surface, he seems to be the most

768
00:54:30.760 --> 00:54:36.719
likely suspect. Lang lived in the
apartment right below Karen and claimed he returned

769
00:54:36.760 --> 00:54:40.360
it around twelve thirty am. The
approximate time of Karen's death. By his

770
00:54:40.360 --> 00:54:45.119
own admission, Lang was pretty drunk, and he had a notorious habit of

771
00:54:45.159 --> 00:54:50.039
walking into other people's apartments uninvited when
he was intoxicated, and he flat out

772
00:54:50.119 --> 00:54:52.960
told someone he killed Karen, even
though he later recanted and said he was

773
00:54:52.960 --> 00:54:58.239
just kidding. So I can definitely
picture a scenario where a drunken Lang decides

774
00:54:58.239 --> 00:55:01.079
to knock on Karen's door late night, and because he's her neighbor, she

775
00:55:01.199 --> 00:55:07.039
unlocks the door and lets him inside. Given Lang's innebriated state, any number

776
00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:10.519
of scenarios could have occurred which escalated
out of control and led to him strangling

777
00:55:10.599 --> 00:55:15.360
Karen to death. But in spite
of Lang's odd behavior, there are no

778
00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:19.840
fingerprints or any other piece of physical
evidence which places him inside the apartment.

779
00:55:20.559 --> 00:55:23.320
Lang died in two thousand and six, so if he was responsible for Karen's

780
00:55:23.360 --> 00:55:28.480
death, he took that secret to
his grave. Overall, I'd say it

781
00:55:28.519 --> 00:55:32.360
maybe about fifty fifty between Karen's death
being some sort of accident or overdose or

782
00:55:32.360 --> 00:55:36.920
foul play being involved. I'm not
sure who the perpetrator might have been,

783
00:55:36.960 --> 00:55:40.119
but remember there were a few unknown
sets of prints found in the apartment,

784
00:55:40.519 --> 00:55:45.280
so the killer could have been some
unidentified person we don't even know about who

785
00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:49.119
happened to stop by Karen's door that
night. But when you consider that the

786
00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:53.079
homicide ruling was made by a corner
so incompetent that his autopsies wound up getting

787
00:55:53.119 --> 00:55:58.920
multiple innocent people convicted of murders which
never happened, I'm willing to believe there

788
00:55:58.960 --> 00:56:02.159
may have been no murder in this
particular case. The only thing I one

789
00:56:02.519 --> 00:56:07.760
percent sure about is that Karen's death
had nothing to do with the Kennedy assassination,

790
00:56:07.079 --> 00:56:10.679
and I think that all those conspiracy
theories have really muddied the case and

791
00:56:10.760 --> 00:56:15.320
provided an unnecessary distraction. When you
look at Karen Cups in its life as

792
00:56:15.320 --> 00:56:19.239
a whole, you can see that
the source of a lot of her issues

793
00:56:19.320 --> 00:56:22.159
was the enormous pressure she faced from
her mother to become a star, which

794
00:56:22.199 --> 00:56:27.280
caused her to lead a self destructive
lifestyle. So regardless of whether or not

795
00:56:27.400 --> 00:56:30.519
Karen was murdered, this is still
a really sad story. As far as

796
00:56:30.519 --> 00:56:35.519
I know, this is technically an
open case with the LAPD, So even

797
00:56:35.559 --> 00:56:38.400
though nearly sixty years have passed,
if you happen to have any information on

798
00:56:38.440 --> 00:56:45.760
the unexplained death of Karen Cupsonant,
please contact the Perfect Authorities. Jules Ashley

799
00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:51.519
any final thoughts on this case,
Yeah, absolutely. I mean Karen was

800
00:56:51.639 --> 00:56:57.880
this young woman who had so much
potential, but it's almost like the issue

801
00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:01.119
here is way bigger than her murder. It's the pressure that's put on her.

802
00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:06.519
It's the family dynamic of saying,
listen, as my child, you're

803
00:57:06.559 --> 00:57:10.599
going to be someone. You're going
to live up to this expectation and all

804
00:57:10.639 --> 00:57:17.079
of the expectations that were put on
Karen, almost expectations that she didn't want

805
00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:21.599
and she didn't feel like she could
live up to. And I think that

806
00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:25.599
made her a huge target for people
to say, you are needing something,

807
00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:31.079
you're not happy, you are craving
attention, right, And so people like

808
00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:37.480
Andrew come into her life where he's
fun, he is wild, he wants

809
00:57:37.519 --> 00:57:43.440
a fun relationship, and Karen needs
something more. She needs somebody who says

810
00:57:43.519 --> 00:57:46.519
you're valuable, You're worthy just the
way you are. And instead of getting

811
00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:52.280
that with a healthy relationship with her
parents, with her boyfriend, she's seeking

812
00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:55.599
it out in a media realm and
an entertainment realm and she just wasn't ever

813
00:57:55.679 --> 00:58:00.880
going to get it there. And
you start to see this young woman break

814
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:06.039
down and start running into issues that
seemed bigger than her spirit can handle.

815
00:58:06.199 --> 00:58:10.159
So getting pregnant and having to get
rid of the baby and have an abortion

816
00:58:10.280 --> 00:58:15.880
right and saying that I can't have
that baby right now. What I think

817
00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:20.239
truly was a psychotic break and thinking
I gave up this baby, and then

818
00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:22.840
a baby arrives on my doorstep and
then it's taken away from me too.

819
00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:29.119
I don't think there was really a
baby. I think Karen is so sad

820
00:58:29.159 --> 00:58:31.440
in that moment, and then you
read her notes where she's saying, my

821
00:58:31.480 --> 00:58:35.599
life is so dark, I don't
want to do this anymore. I think

822
00:58:35.639 --> 00:58:38.320
that was in regards to her career. I think she just wanted someone to

823
00:58:38.360 --> 00:58:43.079
say, Karen, step away from
it all. You are perfect the way

824
00:58:43.119 --> 00:58:46.599
you are. You are amazing,
and yet she was looking so hard for

825
00:58:46.639 --> 00:58:50.639
someone to say that. I think
she opened that door to the wrong person.

826
00:58:51.039 --> 00:58:53.880
And then her family was left going, please help us figure out what

827
00:58:53.920 --> 00:58:59.960
happened to our baby, And thank
goodness, her father had the kind of

828
00:59:00.280 --> 00:59:04.480
presence and confidence and strength to say, you guys, need to get off

829
00:59:04.519 --> 00:59:07.360
this conspiracy theory. My baby was
killed, my baby died. I had

830
00:59:07.400 --> 00:59:10.679
to bury her. I don't need
this kind of mess following us. And

831
00:59:10.880 --> 00:59:15.519
you do see that family go on
to live quite a long life, quite

832
00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:20.679
a successful life, which is not
always the case in these stories we share.

833
00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:25.039
I'm sad. I wish Karen had
had that one person, that one

834
00:59:25.119 --> 00:59:29.719
friend and said I see you hurting, I'm here and like, let's step

835
00:59:29.760 --> 00:59:32.679
away from all this, and she
didn't. It is sixty years that have

836
00:59:32.800 --> 00:59:38.039
passed since this. I'm not incredibly
encouraged that Something's going to be solved in

837
00:59:38.159 --> 00:59:43.239
Karen's case. But Karen mattered,
and I think the fact they were sharing

838
00:59:43.239 --> 00:59:46.119
this story makes me really proud.
That's to say that she mattered, and

839
00:59:46.199 --> 00:59:51.960
her problems then are not that different
than problems that myself, that jewels that

840
00:59:52.079 --> 00:59:57.039
every woman listening and other families that
are listening have experienced before. So might

841
00:59:57.079 --> 01:00:00.599
have been sixty years ago, the
reality of what she went through is still

842
01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:04.000
real. And if anyone does no
information, my god, how powerful would

843
01:00:04.039 --> 01:00:07.800
it be to solve what happened to
Karen. Karen's words that she wrote in

844
01:00:07.840 --> 01:00:10.440
her journal make me really sad.
And the fact that she seemed to be

845
01:00:10.480 --> 01:00:15.199
embarking on this career that I question
if she really wanted to do or if

846
01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:17.599
she thought that it was somebody else's
dream, like her mother's dream. There

847
01:00:17.599 --> 01:00:22.079
just seemed to be this immense loneliness. And I can tell you from personal

848
01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:25.880
experience with disordered eating, there is
a lot of loneliness that goes along with

849
01:00:25.880 --> 01:00:30.079
that. There's things that other people
aren't thinking of and you're thinking about it,

850
01:00:30.079 --> 01:00:34.239
like going and sitting down for a
meal with people when you're in your

851
01:00:34.280 --> 01:00:38.079
disorder can be very upsetting. Andy
can feel traumatic because you feel like you're

852
01:00:38.079 --> 01:00:43.119
going to be picked apart. There's
a lot of emotional complexity that goes along

853
01:00:43.159 --> 01:00:45.880
with that. And then when you
factor in losing the baby, I agree

854
01:00:45.880 --> 01:00:50.840
with ashe. I believe it was
a psychotic break when she believes she saw

855
01:00:50.840 --> 01:00:53.840
the baby on the porch and called
the police, And then you're dealing with

856
01:00:53.880 --> 01:00:58.840
somebody who had made her pregnant but
then didn't want an exclusive relationship. But

857
01:00:59.280 --> 01:01:01.440
I don't know if this whole Palm
Springs thing was just friends or if he

858
01:01:01.480 --> 01:01:07.280
was still seeing her and continuing to
see other people and maybe making those notes

859
01:01:07.400 --> 01:01:10.840
was just her attempt to get him
to maybe comfort her, and it was

860
01:01:10.880 --> 01:01:15.239
something that they could commiserate over receiving
these awful notes in the mail. And

861
01:01:15.840 --> 01:01:20.559
I just feel so sad for her
because it seemed like her mental health was

862
01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:25.320
at a very low point. Do
I believe it was suicide? No?

863
01:01:27.079 --> 01:01:30.960
Do I think it was connected to
the jfk assassination. No. Could it

864
01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:36.119
have been accidental? And doctor Kaye
the coroner, screwed it up absolutely,

865
01:01:36.719 --> 01:01:39.719
because we just don't know any other
details about blood alcohol level, any drugs

866
01:01:39.719 --> 01:01:44.000
that could have been in her system, if she was sexually assaulted. These

867
01:01:44.039 --> 01:01:47.679
are big holes in the autopsy that
we were just unaware of the information that

868
01:01:47.719 --> 01:01:52.199
should be there. So we're having
to speculate on what we do know.

869
01:01:52.639 --> 01:01:55.039
And we do know that there was
that land guy that was from a wealthy

870
01:01:55.079 --> 01:02:00.920
family and he liked to walk into
people's apartments without their none, which is

871
01:02:00.920 --> 01:02:04.800
super creepy. And I think,
like Ashu pointed out the coffee pot on

872
01:02:04.840 --> 01:02:07.320
the floor, I don't necessarily think
it means it was morning. I just

873
01:02:07.400 --> 01:02:12.639
think that she could have invited somebody
in because of the open door, and

874
01:02:13.039 --> 01:02:16.599
then that person did her harm.
I think the possibility for falling and injuring

875
01:02:16.599 --> 01:02:22.039
her high bone to break it.
I think that's pretty difficult to do.

876
01:02:22.440 --> 01:02:25.079
You'd have to fall at a very
specific angle, but of course it is

877
01:02:25.199 --> 01:02:30.760
possible. Yes. I first became
familiar with this case nearly ten years ago

878
01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:34.039
when I wrote an article for crack
dot com, because that's where I found

879
01:02:34.039 --> 01:02:37.519
out about this weird story about the
anonymous woman who supposedly made phone calls to

880
01:02:37.559 --> 01:02:44.000
an operator and accurately predicted the exact
time of the JFK assassination. And then

881
01:02:44.039 --> 01:02:47.000
I found out they suspected it was
an actress named Karen Copsonant So I kind

882
01:02:47.039 --> 01:02:51.480
of went down the rabbit hole and
decided to do a podcast episode on the

883
01:02:51.519 --> 01:02:53.679
trail went cold a few years later, And of course then I realized that

884
01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:58.280
this was the most absurd aspect of
this story, that there's probably like no

885
01:02:58.360 --> 01:03:01.840
connection at all with the JFK assassination, and it's just a coincidence that Karen

886
01:03:01.880 --> 01:03:06.760
happened to die only a few days
after this event took place. And I

887
01:03:06.800 --> 01:03:08.519
do think they have moneyed the case. But even if you cut the entire

888
01:03:08.599 --> 01:03:14.400
JFK angle away, then you find
out that it's really sad but intriguing story

889
01:03:14.480 --> 01:03:19.280
where we can't be one percent certain
if Karen was the victim of foul play,

890
01:03:19.320 --> 01:03:22.119
but if she was, there are
a number of promising potential suspects,

891
01:03:22.360 --> 01:03:25.880
and I do agree that out of
all of them, David Lange definitely seems

892
01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:31.400
like the most likely because he lived
at the same apartment complex, allegedly bragged

893
01:03:31.440 --> 01:03:36.159
about it, and had a habit
of walking into other people's apartments. But

894
01:03:36.280 --> 01:03:39.159
they just never found any conclusive evidence. But I also don't rule out the

895
01:03:39.159 --> 01:03:44.679
possibility that her death was not a
homicide and that the corner just screwed up

896
01:03:44.679 --> 01:03:47.320
at the high bone, and that
her death was the result of something else,

897
01:03:47.400 --> 01:03:51.880
like an accidental overdose. I would
be curious to know, though,

898
01:03:51.920 --> 01:03:54.760
like if they did a fresh investigation, if they would find any DNA on

899
01:03:54.800 --> 01:04:00.280
her body, because obviously they were
not thinking about stuff like DNA back in

900
01:04:00.360 --> 01:04:03.400
nineteen sixty three, and we don't
know if she might have been sexually assaulted,

901
01:04:03.480 --> 01:04:08.039
and a lot of stuff missing here
did make a complete determination of what

902
01:04:08.159 --> 01:04:12.880
happened. But like I said,
we are about to reach the sixty year

903
01:04:12.920 --> 01:04:16.559
anniversary of the JFK assassination, which
also happened to take place on the same

904
01:04:16.639 --> 01:04:20.159
week as Karen's death, So who
knows, maybe us covering it on the

905
01:04:20.199 --> 01:04:26.519
podcast or the sixty and anniversary will
help bring rejuvenated interest into this case,

906
01:04:26.800 --> 01:04:30.679
because even though so much time has
passed and most of her family members are

907
01:04:30.679 --> 01:04:33.599
dead, we still deserve to find
out conclusive answers about what happened to Karen,

908
01:04:33.639 --> 01:04:38.000
And even if she was not the
victim of foul play, her story

909
01:04:38.079 --> 01:04:42.440
still deserves to be heard because it's
pretty much a very sad case studio what

910
01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:46.400
happens when someone is pushed into a
lifestyle that they don't really want and wind

911
01:04:46.480 --> 01:04:51.079
up becoming very unhappy and self destructive. And I just feel that if mental

912
01:04:51.079 --> 01:04:56.559
health was in a different place in
the nineteen sixties and Karen had someone to

913
01:04:56.639 --> 01:04:59.599
turn to that she could share a
problems were, then maybe her story would

914
01:04:59.599 --> 01:05:02.320
have turned out a lot differently.
Robin, do you want to tell us

915
01:05:02.320 --> 01:05:05.960
a little bit about the Trail Went
Cold Patreon? Yes, The Trail Cold

916
01:05:05.960 --> 01:05:11.519
Patreon has been around for three years
now, and we offer the standard bonus

917
01:05:11.519 --> 01:05:15.480
features like early ad free episodes,
and I also send out stickers and sign

918
01:05:15.599 --> 01:05:19.280
thank you cards to anyone who signs
up with us on Patreon if you join

919
01:05:19.320 --> 01:05:25.519
our five dollar tier Tier two.
We also offer monthly bonus episodes in which

920
01:05:25.559 --> 01:05:30.239
I talk about cases which are not
featured on The Trail Went Cold's original feed,

921
01:05:30.280 --> 01:05:33.079
so they're exclusive to Patreon, and
if you join our highest tier tier

922
01:05:33.119 --> 01:05:36.719
three, the ten dollar tier.
One of the features we offer is a

923
01:05:38.000 --> 01:05:43.199
audio commentary track over classic episodes of
UNSAWD Mysteries, where you can download an

924
01:05:43.199 --> 01:05:47.400
audio file and then boot up the
original UNSAWD Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

925
01:05:47.440 --> 01:05:51.760
YouTube and play it with my audio
commentary playing in the background, where I

926
01:05:51.840 --> 01:05:57.920
just provide trivia and factoids about the
cases featured in this episode. And incidentally,

927
01:05:57.960 --> 01:06:00.960
the very first episode that I did
a commentary track over was the episode

928
01:06:00.960 --> 01:06:04.920
featuring this case. So if you
want to download a commentary track in which

929
01:06:04.920 --> 01:06:10.800
I make more smartass remarks about Jewel
Kaylor than be sure to join Tier three.

930
01:06:10.880 --> 01:06:13.159
So I want to let you know
a little bit about the Jewels and

931
01:06:13.199 --> 01:06:16.440
Ashley. Patreon, so there's early
ad free episodes of The Path Went Chili.

932
01:06:16.840 --> 01:06:20.119
We've got our Path Went Chili vinis, which are always over an hour,

933
01:06:20.199 --> 01:06:23.960
so they're not very many, but
they're just too short to turn into

934
01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:27.639
a series, and we're really enjoying
doing those, so we hope you'll check

935
01:06:27.639 --> 01:06:30.360
out those patreons will link them in
the show notes. So I want to

936
01:06:30.400 --> 01:06:33.280
thank you all for listening, and
any chance you have to share us on

937
01:06:33.320 --> 01:06:38.159
social media with a friend or to
rate and review is greatly appreciate it.

938
01:06:38.239 --> 01:06:41.639
You can email us at the path
Went Chili at gmail dot com. You

939
01:06:41.639 --> 01:06:45.159
can reach us on Twitter at the
path Went So until next time, be

940
01:06:45.239 --> 01:06:48.400
sure to bundle up because cold trails
and chili pass call for warm clothing.

941
01:06:48.639 --> 01:06:51.920
Music by Paul Rich from the podcast
Cold Callers Comedy