WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.800 --> 00:00:05.200 Why did Anakin Skywalker fall? And who is to blame? Or is the 2 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:08.640 better question, who's responsible? And what do we do with that information? 3 00:00:09.080 --> 00:00:12.320 On a recent episode of my Star Wars Generations podcast, we were talking about 4 00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:16.559 Revenge of the Sith and this topic of you know, who is responsible for 5 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:19.079 the fall of Anakin? Is it Anakin? Is it the Jedi? Is 6 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:22.440 it Palpatine? Is it all of them? Came up and I realized that 7 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:25.320 we had a fun discussion of it, but it's a much deeper conversation that 8 00:00:25.399 --> 00:00:28.960 I wanted to talk to Riki about, and Anakin Skywalker is kind of the 9 00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:33.240 chief example, but it's something we talk about a lot in comics of and 10 00:00:33.320 --> 00:00:38.119 superhero movies, is when we get a villain's backstory, when we get their 11 00:00:38.799 --> 00:00:43.000 villain origin story, it leads questions of can we be sympathetic to them? 12 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:46.479 And now who is to blame? Is it their fault that they became a 13 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:49.920 villain? Is it the circumstances they were under? How do we deal with 14 00:00:49.960 --> 00:00:53.600 all that and how do we how do these questions affect the way we see 15 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:56.320 things in our own lives. As always for this my co host for today 16 00:00:56.359 --> 00:01:00.880 is Riki Hayashi. Riki, how are we doing today? You know, 17 00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:06.719 this is a very interesting topic, Matthew, so I'm glad you brought it 18 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:11.519 to this podcast as well. Obviously we're both I mean, you're obviously a 19 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:15.519 fan of Star Wars, but I think some people might not know that I 20 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:19.000 am a huge Star Wars fan as well. I've been a guest on the 21 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:25.480 other Actually, I think we just released the bad Batch summary. Right, 22 00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:27.879 you were a guest, but also you and your partner Sarah were co hosts, 23 00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:32.000 I think the longest running co hosts of the Star Wars podcast for a 24 00:01:32.040 --> 00:01:38.879 while. Yeah, I mean, Star Wars is very close near and dear 25 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:45.280 to my heart, and questions like this are on one level, very simple, 26 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:53.400 splistic, but can lead to good discussion. Agreed. Agreed, And 27 00:01:53.480 --> 00:01:57.400 so let me actually start by saying, when it comes to we're gonna I 28 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:01.879 understand on that other podcast we did longer conversation about Anakin, and this isn't 29 00:02:01.879 --> 00:02:07.920 as much us discussing who's responsible or to blame for Anakin as much as as 30 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:10.520 us talking about how we frame that question. But I'll start by giving you 31 00:02:10.520 --> 00:02:15.360 a chance to talk about, you know, why did Anakin fall and who 32 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:22.120 in your mind is responsible or to blame? Yeah, that the fundamental like 33 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:30.680 wordplay here, responsible to me, only one person is responsible, Anakin Skywalker 34 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:37.360 for his actions, right right, Like personal responsibility I think is very important, 35 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:44.599 but also from a fictional historical perspective, you want to be able to 36 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:52.199 assign blame for incidents like this the fall of the Republic, right like Anakin 37 00:02:52.319 --> 00:03:01.080 is responsible for his own actions killing Jedi and probably like other crimes as Darth 38 00:03:01.159 --> 00:03:07.759 Vader. But like the bigger picture here is the Republic fell, the Jedi 39 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:14.680 order fell, and who's to blame for that? Right Like he had a 40 00:03:14.759 --> 00:03:20.759 hand in some of that, in the incident in Palpatine's office with mace In 41 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:28.599 helping to execute Order sixty six by assaulting the Jedi Temple. But it's very 42 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:36.719 rare that one being can solely be, you know, blamed for historically significant 43 00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:40.599 events, Right, That makes sense. I think I look at this through 44 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:46.800 a slightly different lens in that I do think responsibility is important, and I 45 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:53.159 think you're right that Anakin is responsible for the choices he makes, but also 46 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:58.800 there are a number of other people that make choices that create the situation that 47 00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:02.599 Anakin is the person who he is and he's in that situation when he makes 48 00:04:02.599 --> 00:04:08.039 those choices. And I guess this is kind of my central idea with all 49 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:15.719 of this is that I think blame is a really is a really problematic direction 50 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:18.839 to go because it really looks for the idea of if we find one person 51 00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:23.199 to blame, that means that everybody else is off the hook, or we 52 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:26.040 have to say that these two people are equally to blame, or then it 53 00:04:26.079 --> 00:04:29.279 gets to a conversation of, oh, if you say these two are equally 54 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:31.560 to blame, should it actually be more like seventy thirty or something like that. 55 00:04:31.639 --> 00:04:38.639 And to me, all those conversations are about trying to figure out like 56 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:45.240 who did the wrong thing? And when I look at a situation like Anakin's 57 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:48.839 for me both within the story but also outside the story in terms of how 58 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:53.000 we learn from it in our own lives, I think what I come down 59 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:55.519 to is I really want to figure it out, like for each of the 60 00:04:55.519 --> 00:05:00.360 different characters and each of the different institutions, what level of responsibility to they 61 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:03.720 have, not for the perspective of blame, but for the perspective of how 62 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:08.560 can they learn to make to do something better at the next time. Does 63 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:14.000 that make sense as a framework? Sure? I also like another word I 64 00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:18.839 would use in this context is accountability. Yeah, in that the republic fell, 65 00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:24.560 was replaced by the emperor or the empire, and then in the future 66 00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:30.199 we get the new republic. And if this were like a real world, 67 00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:38.480 if this were real governments, presumably there would be some kind of trials right 68 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:44.319 to hold people accountable for the empire, like war crimes trials, and we 69 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:48.720 we usually don't get a lot of that in like the fictionalized Star Wars universe. 70 00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:54.079 Yeah, but if you if you were to examine it from that perspective, 71 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:57.639 like who do you hold accountable? Right? And then like you look 72 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:01.160 at Anakin and what he did, and undred percent like he if they have 73 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:04.759 the death penalty, he's probably getting the death penalty for the things he did. 74 00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:10.639 You know, Palpatine, the same thing the Jedi, you know, 75 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:15.920 like Yoda, I don't like Yoda is obviously not gonna get get the death 76 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:21.319 penalty. But you look at how people are held accountable for mistakes in the 77 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:27.199 real world. I mean, like real world examples like nine to eleven BEng 78 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:31.560 Ghazi, Like they hold inquiries and in some cases like put people on trial 79 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:38.720 for mistakes that were made that led to bad outcomes, right, And I 80 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:46.240 think there's a very real possibility that Yoda and or the Jedi Council would be 81 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:49.720 held accountable, would be would be put on trial and held to account for 82 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:55.519 the mistakes that they made that led to the empire, that led to Palpatine 83 00:06:55.560 --> 00:06:59.920 taking over, because they you know, they cover things up, they lied 84 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:01.839 to the Senate, et cetera, etcetera. Those are things that they should 85 00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:05.759 be held accountable for. I think that's a really good way of looking at 86 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:10.079 it, with that accountability idea. And I get that you're looking at through 87 00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:13.240 that that courtroom punishment thing, and like, you know, even in our 88 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:16.800 own world, you have a teen shooter or some other you know, a 89 00:07:16.839 --> 00:07:20.480 young person or a young adult. Anakin is not I think he's like nineteen 90 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:23.800 or twenty, so he might technically be a teenager, but he is a 91 00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:29.720 legal adult in this world. But he's still clearly quite young. And yeah, 92 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:32.279 so he might be put on trial for his actions. I think you 93 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:35.000 can certainly say that Palpatine is a groomer, you know, to use that 94 00:07:35.079 --> 00:07:39.439 kind of modern parlance. And then in the same way that like you know, 95 00:07:39.560 --> 00:07:43.040 schools missing all the warning signs about a kid can get sued. I 96 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:46.360 think the same thing could happen here because for me, and I guess here's 97 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:48.839 what I'm focusing, not even as much on the fall of the Republic, 98 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:53.959 but just specifically the choices Anakin makes, because what I see is kind of 99 00:07:53.959 --> 00:08:00.800 three levels of that responsibility. That first level is Anakin himself. He is 100 00:08:00.839 --> 00:08:05.959 the person who makes those choices. He's not you know, he is making 101 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:11.360 those choices himself. He chooses to go against Mace. At some later point, 102 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:15.199 you might want to argue that the dark Side is like a mythical you 103 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:16.959 know, I don't think we know enough about the exact workings of it to 104 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:20.279 know to what extent is he legally responsible, but certainly he chooses to go 105 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:24.560 down that path in his attack on Mace. Then you can say, okay, 106 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:30.759 well, what responsibility does Palpatine have? And I know I often hear 107 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:35.240 this groomer language used a lot. And here's again when I think it becomes 108 00:08:35.320 --> 00:08:39.639 very easy for it to become a zero sum question of people who want to 109 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:43.120 give more blame to Palpatine therefore want to let Anakin completely off the hook. 110 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:50.480 And to me, that's the wrong. I think Palpatine directly influences Anakin's choices, 111 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:56.000 but Anakin still makes the choices. And then for the Jedi's perspective, 112 00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:03.799 I think Anakin is a person who is very vulnerable to Palpatine's manipulation and very 113 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:07.799 likely to make a bad decision. And I think that's all a lot of 114 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:13.360 that is can be. The Jedi should be held accountable in some ways for 115 00:09:13.399 --> 00:09:16.240 all the mistakes they make in terms of never giving a chance to grieve the 116 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:20.240 loss of his mother and repressing all of his emotions and all the things that 117 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:26.799 they do that help make him into the person who makes those choices, you 118 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:30.120 know. And so I kind of see it's these three different levels of what 119 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:37.559 brings Anakin to the point that he's at when he makes those decisions. Yeah, 120 00:09:37.639 --> 00:09:43.960 I think we are approaching this from from different perspectives, right, Like 121 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:50.159 you're very Anakin focused and I'm kind of more like system focused. Right, 122 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:56.840 So when you talk when you talk about like the incident in Palatine's office with 123 00:09:56.080 --> 00:10:03.279 Mace, I would look at that from I guess like a legalistic perspective of 124 00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:11.679 what he did and Mace in that moment, Mace was about to execute Palpatine, 125 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:16.039 right, like I do we agree on that, yes, he lifted 126 00:10:16.039 --> 00:10:18.960 his lightsaber to strike him down, and that they had like an exchange of 127 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:22.200 like he should stand trial, like no, he's too dangerous, Like I 128 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:26.200 don't remember if Mace says I have to kill him, but he like he 129 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:28.840 has to be eliminated or something like that. So he makes his intention clearly 130 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:33.679 he's going to murder Palpatine, which is not is not legal, right, 131 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:41.759 Like he's taking an extra judiciary action to and making his own declaration Like I'm 132 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:48.279 the judge, surey executioner in this case. And so I think from like 133 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:52.000 a legalistic like if this were quote unquote real, from a legalistic standpoint, 134 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:56.759 I don't think what Anakin did was wrong in that moment, right, like 135 00:10:56.840 --> 00:11:03.159 in terms of response or accountability, Like, I think what Anakin did was 136 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:09.200 kind of the right thing to do. Now we know because it's fiction that 137 00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:13.600 he the Palpatine was manipulating the whole situation, right, he could have forced 138 00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:18.519 Lightning and Mason at any point, but he was looking to get Anakin to 139 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:22.399 commit this action to kind to be on his side. So that's a very 140 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:28.440 interesting perspective, And I I do think you're right that what Mace Windu is 141 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:31.799 doing is you know, extra legal. He's taking the law into his own 142 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:35.320 hands. And you can argue about whether he's right or not in terms of 143 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:39.960 Palpatine's ability to stand trial. But then this is the problem with vigilante cops 144 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:43.440 and all that kind of a thing. Also, personally, I think Mace 145 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:48.399 is criminally responsible for negligence for the ridiculous I'm going to pull my lightsaber all 146 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:52.000 the way back and give Anakin thirty seconds to decide if he wants to cut 147 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:56.279 my hand off or not. I think, though, the idea that Anakin 148 00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:05.720 is acting properly would only make sense if he then stopped. If he stops 149 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:09.639 Mace from killing Palpatine, but then he also like tries to use his lightsaber 150 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:13.759 to stop Palpatine from killing Mace, you know, because he doesn't, he 151 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:18.679 leaves Mace incredibly vulnerable to Palpatine, and then when Palpatine kills Mace, he 152 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:22.360 does nothing. And to me, that's where it is clear, to me 153 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:30.039 at least, that Anakin's concern there is not that what Mace is doing is 154 00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:35.600 illegal or wrong. It's that he needs Palpatine alive for his own selfish purposes 155 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:39.279 of keeping Padme alive, and and so it's harder for me to just and 156 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:41.480 that he's perfectly fine with Palpatine killing Mace, and so it's harder for me. 157 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:45.799 And then in his mind that leads to the what have I done? 158 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:48.360 Like he I think certainly sees it not that he did the right thing, 159 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:54.360 but that he, in that act, has irrevocably chosen Palpatine and the Sith 160 00:12:54.440 --> 00:13:01.639 and the dark side. Yeah, well, I I think I agree in 161 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:07.279 general, Like the main thing is, like he disarms Mace literally right, 162 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:13.039 like he cuts his hand off, but he his action is meant to incapacitate 163 00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:22.480 Mace's ability to kill Palpatine. Palpatine's ability to kill Mace was unexpected, for 164 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:28.480 both Mace and for Anakin. Like shooting the force lightning and sending him flying 165 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:33.840 out the window was not I don't think anyone really included the audience, I 166 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:39.200 really expected that to happen in that moment. So I don't know, I 167 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:43.080 mean worse lightening him before I thought that. I was not surprised. Oh 168 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:46.720 no, no, you're right, You're right right either way, I think 169 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:50.639 we're getting a little bit too locked into that legalism of that one particular moment, 170 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:54.799 I I guess for me what I'm trying. And even if we don't 171 00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:56.200 talk about the decision with Mace, it's also you know, then he goes 172 00:13:56.240 --> 00:14:00.000 and attacks the temple and all that, and then he starts on this dark 173 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:03.600 path that is all these terrible things. And I think we can have a 174 00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:05.240 larger conversation, but who's responsible for the fall of the Republic, And maybe 175 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:09.519 let's do that next. I guess what I'm just getting at is I feel 176 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:13.679 like when the conversation is that it's that because we can put a lot of 177 00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:20.320 I like this idea of accountability instead of either blame or responsibility on both the 178 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:24.679 Jedi and Palpatine, that that's somehow lets Anakin off the hook. And and 179 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:28.519 to me, that's where this idea of everyone is responsible for their own actions. 180 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:35.120 And I at least think, especially when it comes to our own world, 181 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:37.080 that it's important to be able to hold this tension that we can both 182 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:43.759 say people make their own choices and are responsible for those choices, but also 183 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:46.600 a lot of other people made choices that put people in that position, you 184 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:50.399 know, and that that the point, like when we look at young men 185 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:54.159 who you know, commit horribly violent crimes, you know, teen shooters and 186 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:58.000 stuff, but also just people born in bad circumstances and the like. We 187 00:14:58.039 --> 00:15:01.879 can often look at the circumstances they come from and decisions that were made. 188 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:07.279 Or when we're talking about this on the Star Wars podcast, Aaron was talking 189 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:09.919 about how she listens to true crime all the time, and almost all the 190 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:13.799 people they talk about were horribly abused as children and then turn out to be 191 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:18.840 these horrible people as adults. But of course lots and lots and lots of 192 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:22.120 other people are treated badly as children and do not turn out to do that. 193 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:26.919 And so the idea being kind of that, I think to me that 194 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:31.039 we can hold this tension of saying if the Jedi had been a lot smarter 195 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:37.399 in how they had helped raise Anakin, I think it is almost impossible, 196 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:41.480 very unlikely that Anakin makes the choices that he does. But still it is, 197 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:45.279 at the end of the day, like Anakin is the person who makes 198 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:48.799 those choices, and he is responsible for those choices, but the person he 199 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:52.600 is is largely formed by the Jedi and by Palpatine and others, and so 200 00:15:52.840 --> 00:16:07.159 accountability can go to everyone I so again like Anakin is responsible for his own 201 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:10.240 actions. I think what you're getting at is that there are kind of like 202 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:17.840 divergent points where we can see if someone other than Anakin had done something differently, 203 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:21.759 we can imagine a different outcome. Is that kind of where you're getting 204 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:23.879 at? Well, Like, I'll give you one example. I think if 205 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:33.000 obi Wan had been more open to we have a lot of evidence in the 206 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:34.360 texts, particularly in some of the books that came later, but even in 207 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:40.879 the movies that Anakin had some suspicion about Sorry, obi Wan had some suspicion 208 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.919 about Anakin and Padme, but never actually talked to him about it, as 209 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:48.440 well as the idea that by this time Anakin certainly feels like that the Jedi 210 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:53.440 would not allow his relationship with Padme. In a situation that is not so 211 00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:56.679 you know, strict and repressive, or at least where obi Wan has talked 212 00:16:56.679 --> 00:17:00.240 to him. In a world where an doesn't feel like he has to keep 213 00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:04.400 his relationship with Padme a secret, he's much more likely to talk to some 214 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:08.319 of those people and talk about the dreams he's having, so that Palpatine isn't 215 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:15.759 the only one who he's listening to. Like it's been a while, but 216 00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:18.319 I studied a lot about how groomers work and things like that, and one 217 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:22.400 of the things that really gets talked about a lot is that groomers often are 218 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:25.799 able to focus on kids who feel like they are outsiders, often because they're 219 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:27.720 not being listened to at home or at school, or they're not having, 220 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:32.599 you know, other places in their life where they feel like people respect them 221 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:37.039 and and and are you know, being treating them well. And so when 222 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:38.599 someone starts saying, oh, no, I think you're actually great, no 223 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:41.720 one, you know, it's so sad that no one listens to you. 224 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:45.319 They become very responsible to that potentially manipulative groomer person. And to me, 225 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:49.359 that's exactly what I see with Anakin. Like I don't think he's anywhere near 226 00:17:49.400 --> 00:18:00.359 as responsive to Palpatine if the Jedi treat him better, Okay, But like 227 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:10.720 I guess where we're going is like, what are you holding the Jedi responsible 228 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:17.279 for? Well? I guess that's what I mean is I think it's a 229 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:19.160 great question because this is kind of where we have to find new language, 230 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:23.079 I think, and we're using Anakin as example. I think there's other people 231 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:26.359 we can talk about as well. Kingpin, I think is another great one, 232 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:30.319 but also any hero where we're given enough of their sympathetic backstory that we 233 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:34.799 have to sort of ask about it. I think that if the Jedi are 234 00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:41.279 putting people like Anakin or Eve embarrassing in the situations like this, it's not 235 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:44.519 a question of to what extent are they legally responsible? Can they be sued? 236 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:47.839 Can any of them go to jail? Like to me, I would 237 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:51.000 want the Jedi, after Anakin or however they're being rebuilt by Luke, to 238 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:56.039 be able to say we failed Anakin. Anakin made his own choices, but 239 00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:00.039 in part that's because we failed him. How can we do better that? 240 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:03.400 That, to me is the really important question is because I think if you 241 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:06.799 just say, oh, Anakin was his own man, he made his own 242 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.799 choices, or it was all Palpatine, that means the Jedi don't have to 243 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:14.480 do any in any work on themselves. And I guess that's what I'm really 244 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:18.799 coming to is I want everyone involved to be saying, yes, other people 245 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:22.599 responsible too, but what did we do wrong? And how could we fix 246 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:30.759 it for next time? Yeah, and the interesting like one one perspective I 247 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:37.440 might give on that is, don't let Anakin be a Jedi. Yeah, 248 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:41.200 I think it's weird, as weird as we like think of the he's too 249 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:48.440 old thing with Anakin, and maybe like the Jedi were doctrinating kids at a 250 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:52.599 very young age. The fact of the matter is, like, based on 251 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:59.160 their established order and their rules and all that, he shouldn't have been a 252 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:02.880 Jedi, right, Yeah, that's part of the problem here, is that 253 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:07.680 he broke the mold, and that's why to some degree they didn't know what 254 00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:11.839 to do with him. Yeah, and even up to the point where he's 255 00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:15.759 falling in love with Padme and is hiding it and is not sure what to 256 00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:19.079 do, he himself could have made the decision to leave the Jedi Order at 257 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:26.079 that point and just marry Padme. Yeah, and imagine if obi Wan had 258 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:30.480 been willing to sit down with him and say, hey, look what happened 259 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:36.240 with me and the Duchess Setene. I know that I could have chosen not 260 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:40.039 to. I could have chosen to give up the order for her, and 261 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:42.200 I in some level did, and of course the terrible thing happened and Maul 262 00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:45.559 killed her and just sat down with him and said, hey, this is 263 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.519 a choice. You should make, but acknowledged it as something that he could 264 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:53.039 have done or thought about. This is a weird analogy, I realized. 265 00:20:53.079 --> 00:20:56.440 But one of the things I think about a lot is that a lot of 266 00:20:56.519 --> 00:21:03.440 groomors, especially when it's you know, more sexual in nature, really thrive 267 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:08.680 in situations a very very restrictive sex at where kids are not being told anything 268 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:11.319 about their bodies. Kids are not being you know, they're just told abstinence 269 00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:15.079 first, absence first. You know, all those desires are sinful and wrong, 270 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:18.680 you should just ignore them. And so they start looking elsewhere. They 271 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:22.680 go on the internet and start talking to people in chat rooms who may be 272 00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:26.200 you know, older predatory people or they I'm painting this horrible picture again. 273 00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:30.559 A lot of times people just find information they need. But you know, 274 00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:37.119 a kid who's being given healthy, age appropriate sex ed material, Yeah, 275 00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:38.519 I mean all kids are probably not all, but you know a lot of 276 00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:41.960 kids are abaus. They're going to go look online for peorgn or whatever. 277 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:48.160 But that person's not as they're not as needing you know, some outside person 278 00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:52.000 to answer the questions that no one else will answer for them. And not 279 00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:53.359 exactly the same with anakin. But it feels kind of similar to me, 280 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:56.920 that he had all of these feelings about Padme and he had no one to 281 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:02.279 talk to about it. And I think you make a really good point about 282 00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:04.759 the no one knows what to do with it, because to me, there's 283 00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:07.799 a direct link to his feelings about Padme and not knowing what to do with 284 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:15.119 it his feelings about his mother and obi Wan can you know kind of I 285 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:18.319 don't think he meant it to be cruel. But when obi Wan just sort 286 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:19.400 of says, you know, Anakin, you need to let go of your 287 00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:25.519 attachment to your mother. You need to just live in the moment, you 288 00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:27.480 know, it feels like someone who hasn't had a parent, you know, 289 00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:30.400 hasn't lost a parent, saying to someone, oh, just get over it. 290 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:34.440 Obi Wan never had an attachment like that as a kid that he had 291 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:37.279 to let go of when he was nine years old, and so obi Wan 292 00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:40.799 does. He's not able to relate to Anakin, and he's not able to 293 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:47.200 understand why it's so hard for Anakin to let go of this. Yeah, 294 00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:51.480 I have thoughts. I'm trying to organize my thoughts. Go for it the 295 00:22:51.960 --> 00:23:00.920 obi Wan thing. Yes, So I don't know, I lost my thoughts 296 00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:06.000 I'll just say there's a there's a huge irony here in that. On the 297 00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:07.240 Star Wars podcast, I was one of the ones being like, no, 298 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:11.279 no, no, this, we've got to talk about Anakin be responsible because 299 00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:14.720 the one of my get one of my co hosts there describes themselves as an 300 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:15.839 Anakin apologist. And I was very much on the like, no, no, 301 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:19.160 no, this is to me, We're still very much on it is 302 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:22.759 Anakin's fault. He makes the choices he makes. It's not just Palpatine. 303 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:27.279 He's making a lot of bad choices throughout the Clone Wars, you know, 304 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:36.279 getting insanely jealous over padme is you know, former flirtation, killing people like 305 00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:40.440 you know, killing all this, the Tuscans like, none of this isn't 306 00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:45.519 any way to defend Anakin. It's just to say that. I guess here's 307 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:52.759 maybe another way to say it. When Anakin chooses the dark side, I 308 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:55.839 think we have to To me, the better question is not who's to blame, 309 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:59.920 it's why does he choose the dark side? And yes, he is 310 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:03.400 the one making the choice, it's his responsibility, but lots of other people 311 00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:08.359 don't make that choice. Luke doesn't make that choice. And I think we 312 00:24:08.359 --> 00:24:11.759 could just say, well, that's just because Luke is a better person than 313 00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:15.279 Anakin and Anakin is just a bad person. But to me, that's a 314 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:18.720 really dangerous road to go down, because then all of us can say, 315 00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:21.200 oh, we're just better than Anakin. We don't have to confront the fact 316 00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:25.480 that we might have made that same choice too under different circumstances. So for 317 00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:30.480 me, it becomes really important to ask, what are the factors that helped 318 00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:41.839 make Anakin into the person that would make that choice? Yeah, And what 319 00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:52.839 I would say is that someone someone can be a victim of circumstances and an 320 00:24:52.920 --> 00:25:00.920 object of sympathy, a tragic figure as we I think we might portray Anakin 321 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:08.119 Skywalker, but that same person, it is also the perpetrator of more harm, 322 00:25:08.599 --> 00:25:15.920 right, right, And I don't think it needs to be a one 323 00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:19.720 or the other. Like one leads one leads to the other. And we 324 00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:26.359 can be sympathetic to the character Anakin Skywalker and say it sucks that his mom 325 00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:30.440 died, It sucks that you know, he had these dreams about his wife 326 00:25:30.519 --> 00:25:36.559 dying and and all of that. Those are the stepping stones that lead to 327 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:41.160 his his falls of the dark side. But he's the one that falls right, 328 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:48.920 Like he is the one who commits the atrocities, and nothing, nothing 329 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:56.640 in his circumstances should excuse his crimes. They explain them, I think is 330 00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:03.799 the best way to put it. And so like being an Anakin apologist, 331 00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:10.799 like, I think that is as much a part of a consequence of discourse, 332 00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:15.680 right if the discourse of fandom is like Anakin's a villain, he's to 333 00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:18.720 blame, like he's the worst. Yeah, you can have a conversation where 334 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:23.400 like these, these are the circumstances that led him to be become this monster, 335 00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:30.240 right, And I think that makes for compelling, more compelling narratives as 336 00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:36.119 well. So it's good to explore that. I've got a lot of responses 337 00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:38.960 there, and we're gonna get right into that right after this. We're starting 338 00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:41.920 the conversation. But we want to hear from you. 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Sign up the epical Pana dot com or through the link in 348 00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:19.200 the show notes and now back to our episode. Welcome back everyone. I 349 00:27:19.240 --> 00:27:22.279 want to keep talking about this, and I'm there's a lot to say about 350 00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:25.880 Anakin, but I wondered if we could broaden out to a couple of other 351 00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:30.440 characters to throw into the mix. And I want to start Riki with a 352 00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:32.880 show that you and I both love and have talked about a lot, Avatar 353 00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:37.599 The Last Airbender. Because let's know, the characters of Zuko and Azula. 354 00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:42.920 Zuka and Azula are both the children of Firelord Ozi. Fire Lord Ozi is, 355 00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:48.839 you know, incredibly abusive, both physically and emotionally. He pushes his 356 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:53.240 kids to terrible directions, and a lot of the terrible things that they both 357 00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:59.680 do are in large part I think you can directly trace them to the kind 358 00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:04.279 of up bringing they have. Now Zooko gets exposed to some really good people, 359 00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.680 especially Uncle Iro, but also just the Avatar gang themselves, and winds 360 00:28:08.759 --> 00:28:12.440 up kind of having his villain turn, but then his hero turn in a 361 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:18.480 way Azula never really does. M H. Where do you place blame for 362 00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:22.240 the two of them? Or again bring up a whole conversation of blame, 363 00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:29.079 responsibility or accountability, you know, and especially they're they're like literal teenagers, 364 00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:32.079 not you know, at least kind of past the agent majority. Not that 365 00:28:32.119 --> 00:28:36.359 it's that significant, but I legally it is. Where where would you kind 366 00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:41.319 of put the two of them in this conversation? I think I would apply 367 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:48.119 the same kind of framework in that they're responsible for their own actions even though 368 00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:53.799 they are teenagers. Like in a lot of these fictionalized worlds, teenagers do 369 00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:57.839 a lot of things that are larger than life, whether it's on the good 370 00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:03.559 side or the bad side. So we kind of have to accept that that's 371 00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:07.119 a thing. And perhaps, you know, like being tried as a minor 372 00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:12.160 might not be as much of a thing in a world where if the military 373 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:18.319 gives you, if the military gives you command authority, then you're like it's 374 00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:23.160 it's it's it's problematic, like for for framing hm. But but in this 375 00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:32.279 world, like, yeah, both Zuko and Azula as teenagers are given command 376 00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:41.839 of some number of troops and do things in in the War two, you 377 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:48.720 know, perpetrate violence against other states and people. So I think they should 378 00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:55.440 they are, they are accountable for those actions as individuals, right. Can 379 00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:59.319 we also look and say that the circumstances in which they were raised had quite 380 00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:02.480 a lot to do with with them becoming the people who made those choices. 381 00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:07.839 Yeah, And I think like if they were held to, you know, 382 00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:11.839 some kind of trial, that that would probably come into it because they are 383 00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:17.599 so young and put in these situations. I do think it's reasonable, like 384 00:30:17.960 --> 00:30:23.799 under the circumstances to say, yeah, there are definitely mitigating circumstances of their 385 00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:30.920 upbringing, and especially like the way that they are thrust into these military positions 386 00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:33.720 right. Well, And to me, one of the most interesting questions about 387 00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:37.960 them is now we're not just talking about the villain turn that they both take, 388 00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:42.799 but the hero turn that one of them takes. And you know, 389 00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:45.400 we only have the story as it's written to us, and Zuko is much 390 00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:48.440 more of a point of view character where's Azula is really just kind of the 391 00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:52.319 presented as villainous, although I think we're supposed to also feel some sympathy for 392 00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:59.640 her. To be sure, do you think that if Azula had spent a 393 00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:03.240 year uncle Iro that she might have made any of the kind of hero turns 394 00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:08.319 that Zuko did or is there just something fundamentally different about because on the one 395 00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:11.240 hand, like I feel like Zuko gets that very different moral influence. On 396 00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:15.799 the other hand, when they're both children at the Emperor's palace, like Azula 397 00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:18.119 is still like, you know, fairly sadistic and maybe responsible for, you 398 00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:22.519 know, the banishment or death of their mother all this kind of stuff. 399 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:27.920 Yeah, Okay, that's never addressed, right. Yeah, at the end 400 00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:33.039 of the show, the original show, I think Zuko says like he's gonna 401 00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:36.720 go find his mother or something like that, And I think there are some 402 00:31:36.759 --> 00:31:42.079 comic books, but yeah, like Azula seems to have had a hand in 403 00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:49.440 that in that disappearance. In terms of Iro, like, it's hard you 404 00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:57.480 can't just like cut and paste and replace like Zuko with a Zula and say 405 00:31:57.559 --> 00:32:00.880 like, well, what would have happened? Is there there are different people 406 00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:06.440 on different paths, And part of the thing with Azula is she shows that 407 00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:15.039 ambition early on, which gets the attention of Ozai and why he chose he 408 00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:21.839 chooses to focus more of his attention on her at a younger age or to 409 00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:25.759 Zuko, not just the ambition but also her abilities as a fire bender. 410 00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:37.400 So it it's it's like, it's very difficult to just say, like, 411 00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:43.240 oh, well, what if what if Azula had had the influence of Iro, 412 00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:47.039 like she didn't because she was already a different person, and that the 413 00:32:47.079 --> 00:32:52.720 two adults in the situation, Ozi and Iro, basically like took each of 414 00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:59.279 the kids under their wing because they saw something in them, they reminded them 415 00:32:59.319 --> 00:33:05.319 themselves, or you know whatever however you want to frame that. Yeah, 416 00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:10.039 I think that's a really good point there. And it's hard because there's a 417 00:33:10.039 --> 00:33:13.559 part of me that wants to be very careful about saying like, oh, 418 00:33:13.640 --> 00:33:15.000 you can just tell when children are six years old, who's going to be 419 00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:19.599 a good one and who's gonna be a bad one. And when I see 420 00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:23.480 Azula at you know, eight or ten or however old she was, you 421 00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:28.359 know, having that naked ambition and that sadism in a lot of ways, 422 00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:32.559 especially how she tortures or iould say teases and torments, but clearly with a 423 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:37.559 very cruel streak to it, not a loving, gentle teasing of both her 424 00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:44.519 brother and her friends. You know, kids don't just turn out like that. 425 00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:45.480 That's that has a lot to do with parenting, That has a lot 426 00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:52.079 to do with the situations that they're raised in. And yeah, so it's 427 00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:59.160 it. It kind of goes to a longer store, a larger point that 428 00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:00.559 I've been thinking about that I think relates to this, which is that I 429 00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:08.320 think when we think about which villains deserve our sympathy, I think there's a 430 00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:13.760 danger of sort of think falling into that trap of if the authors or the 431 00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:17.559 creators show us a character's backstory, and therefore we can be like, oh, 432 00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:20.880 this is why they turned out this way. Okay, there's still the 433 00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:23.239 villain. I still want the hero to defeat them, but I'm sympathetic to 434 00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:28.119 them. Whereas when they don't show a backstory, we just assume, Okay, 435 00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:31.199 that just means it's just because they're a terrible person, and I think 436 00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:36.440 that can be a very effective thing. I think, you know, perhaps 437 00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:39.079 one of my favorite, if not my favorite comic book movie The Dark Knight, 438 00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:45.239 the second, the Christopher Nolan series, they very intentionally don't give Heath 439 00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:49.480 Ledger's joker in origin story. He actually kind of makes up different origin stories 440 00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:52.960 and clearly none of them are true, or at least they're parts all true 441 00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:54.880 or whatever. And to me, that's really effective because that we show us 442 00:34:54.920 --> 00:34:58.480 like, no, this is not sympathetic evil. This is just someone who 443 00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:02.320 is has a complete the different moral framework that is completely amoral, immoral from 444 00:35:02.360 --> 00:35:08.199 anything we understand. But I think there could be a tendency too. If 445 00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:12.159 we see the backstory, we have the sympathy, and when we don't, 446 00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:20.000 we don't. And I kind of feel like if we had seen moments with 447 00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:23.320 Azula before she becomes the person that we see her on screen, you know, 448 00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:28.400 when Ozai starts to you know, kind of take take her under his 449 00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:32.440 wing, we might feel very differently towards her. You know, like learning, 450 00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:37.440 learning is constant, like growth as people as constant, Like we're talking 451 00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:45.639 about these kids, but even as adults, there are moments where something can 452 00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:50.840 be reinforced, right, Like good good behavior can be reinforced, bad behavior 453 00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:55.159 punished, and like we use that framework to decide like going forward in the 454 00:35:55.159 --> 00:36:01.199 future, do I want to continue doing good things or do I want to 455 00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:05.519 continue doing bad things? And bad things is like, you know, it 456 00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:10.239 doesn't have to be necessarily like high crimes. I think I would say like 457 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:15.400 speeding, right, like speeding on the highway, going above the speed limit 458 00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:21.239 is technically against the law, but we all we all do it, and 459 00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:25.079 we do it because when we go over the speed limit, there are no 460 00:36:25.159 --> 00:36:29.840 consequences. We don't you know, if you if you stick within a certain 461 00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:34.559 range, you're not going to get pulled over and you're hopefully you're not going 462 00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:37.960 to cause an accident, mostly because we're all doing it and doing the same 463 00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:44.360 thing that But that's like a very minor example of like a reinforcement like oh, 464 00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:46.760 I'm just going to go five miles over the speed limit. Everything's fine, 465 00:36:46.760 --> 00:36:51.800 so I'm going to continue to do that. And there, and I 466 00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:52.960 mean and there. What I think I would say is that there is a 467 00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:57.639 speed limit that most of us observe, but it's five to ten miles over 468 00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:02.679 when it is printed. Yeah, yeah, And that's kind of like driving. 469 00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:07.960 Society has kind of evolved past more archaic speed limits, and some places 470 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:12.760 like have up to the speed limit, do to do to those changes some 471 00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:17.840 places happen. Yeah, and then of course, like there's always instances where 472 00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:24.960 you might get pulled over because a certain area decides to enforce the posted limit 473 00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:29.039 more strictly. Right, and then and then you kind of like if you 474 00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:30.559 know that or you discover that, you're like, okay, well, now 475 00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:36.280 in this section of highway near this town, I know I have to go 476 00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:40.440 slower, right, and we adjust our behavior, and that's you know, 477 00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:45.599 that's again like the consequences of that are not earth shattering, Like we're not 478 00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:50.960 talking about life or death, well hopefully life or death situations. But I 479 00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:54.320 like to think of that as like, yeah, like we we always make 480 00:37:54.400 --> 00:38:00.840 decisions and some are quote unquote good and some are quote unquote bad. But 481 00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:07.079 it doesn't you know, I don't think it necessarily casts us as good or 482 00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:09.880 bad people, like in the big picture, right, we make certain decisions, 483 00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:15.639 but like we should think about them, Like we should think about our 484 00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:22.719 decisions why we do them. Like I actually because I'm a jogger and I 485 00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:30.480 like jog on city streets. Like when I'm driving in city areas, I 486 00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:35.079 try I tend to go a little slower because I'm very conscious of that, 487 00:38:35.159 --> 00:38:38.559 of like being aware of joggers, bikers, pedestrians, and just like the 488 00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:44.280 responsibility I have because when I'm jogging, like some people, I'll tell you 489 00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:49.079 you just like aren't paying attention and will like cut me off at intersections and 490 00:38:49.079 --> 00:38:52.719 stuff, and I'll just like be standing there like that that was very dangerous 491 00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:57.719 that you didn't even look for me. So I try because of my background 492 00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:01.440 as a jogger, and you know, yeah, no, I like what 493 00:39:01.480 --> 00:39:05.280 you're talking about there, And I think that kind of speaks to this whole 494 00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:10.000 idea of that you can both take personal accountability while also recognizing that there's other 495 00:39:10.039 --> 00:39:15.719 factors there. I'm going to get very kind of real for a second here, 496 00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:17.559 but this is something I've talked about before. I had a lot of 497 00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:23.079 abuse in my childhood and a lot of really problematic situations and have wrestled with 498 00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:25.920 a lot of mental health demons because of that. I've been in a great 499 00:39:25.960 --> 00:39:29.280 situation for the last couple of years, but especially when I was younger, 500 00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:32.360 I was not a great person and made some decisions that really hurt a lot 501 00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:37.760 of people. And I can look to the abuse, I can look to 502 00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:42.000 the things that happened to me when I was a kid. The trauma and 503 00:39:42.119 --> 00:39:49.039 trace a direct line towards, you know, being the person who was desperately 504 00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:52.000 concerned that people would leave me alone and so wound up, you know, 505 00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:53.760 without even realizing, kind of being manipulative to people around me, or you 506 00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:57.599 know, all these kind of things. And I say without any meaning to 507 00:39:57.679 --> 00:39:59.840 because I'm ensemble of it's true. What I'm not saying that to excuse me 508 00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:04.119 at all. It's just more that these become unconscious behaviors. And I always 509 00:40:04.119 --> 00:40:06.880 had the option to kind of do more self examination and I didn't, And 510 00:40:06.920 --> 00:40:12.559 that's it is my responsibility. I took the actions. The person who I 511 00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:15.320 was who made those actions was very formed by a lot of problematic things that 512 00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:21.400 happened in my childhood. And I think that's the thing is is I think 513 00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:22.519 we're kind of in this, we're really agreeing, is that we need to 514 00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:28.880 be able to have that double double space of saying, you know, unless 515 00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:31.400 you are, like you know, at gunpoint, or you know you're being 516 00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:35.480 coerced, or like you know, there are lots of things that can take 517 00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:39.480 away a person's ability to make choices. And then we can talk about that. 518 00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:45.000 But when you know a person is making a choice, but they're making 519 00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:49.920 a choice in part because you know of whatever else they're dealing with, yeah 520 00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:52.960 we can still we can say you were accountable for those choices. But also 521 00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:55.559 because again, to me, the point shouldn't be, Oh, if you're 522 00:40:55.559 --> 00:40:58.719 mad at me for making the choice, No, go be mad at my 523 00:40:58.760 --> 00:41:01.559 father, Go be mad at my school system. It's more, yeah, 524 00:41:01.639 --> 00:41:06.039 be mad at me. I made the choices. I hurt people. But 525 00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:09.559 also I would hope that, you know, if I were ever a parent, 526 00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:12.159 I'd want to be able to look at that and like, what were 527 00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:14.960 the choices my father made? How can I break that? And what were 528 00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:16.760 the choices his father made and then his father's made. How can I break 529 00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:21.800 that cycle? What were the choices that my schooling made in terms of you 530 00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:24.519 know, what it tolerated in terms of bullying, And how could I try 531 00:41:24.519 --> 00:41:28.159 to find a school that was different than that or things like that. You 532 00:41:28.199 --> 00:41:30.039 know, it's the at the end of the day, I'm not I'm not 533 00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:34.880 interested in who to blame. I'm interested in who can change their behavior to 534 00:41:34.920 --> 00:41:43.199 prevent these situations happening in the future. M certainly, and I think That's 535 00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:47.920 why the Jedi, we use the word blame again, you know, get 536 00:41:47.960 --> 00:41:53.199 blamed so much for what happened, Like even though we are saying that Anakin 537 00:41:53.280 --> 00:42:01.000 Skywalker is responsible for his own actions, the the Jedi Council, I mean 538 00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:08.559 I said it earlier. They literally lied to the Senate yep, right, 539 00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:15.559 And I would say conspired again from like a legal standpoint, I think there 540 00:42:15.639 --> 00:42:22.480 was a criminal conspiracy to hide the I think the Jedi were they said they 541 00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:29.280 were losing their connection with the force and hence they were unable to detect the 542 00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:31.719 Sith, right, I think it was the conversation that happened, and so 543 00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:37.599 like they know that there's a Sith Lord somewhere in the galaxy, and I 544 00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:42.760 think they even begin to suspect that they are somewhere like within the halls of 545 00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:45.559 power, and they're unable to do anything about it, and they don't tell 546 00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:51.599 anyone that they can't and they don't ask for help, right, So that 547 00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:57.159 to me, that is the failing of the Jedi, like less So Andakin 548 00:42:57.239 --> 00:43:00.880 Skywalker and like teaching him and all that. But it's just like their whole 549 00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:05.480 stick of like well, what if we just kind of like bubble around and 550 00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:09.079 don't tell anyone. And I'll certainly say the High Republic books established that this 551 00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:13.880 does not start with the prequels, that as far back as two hundred and 552 00:43:13.880 --> 00:43:16.000 fifty years ago. You know, most of the people in Clone Wars are 553 00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:20.639 not born for another century. But Yoda was certainly around, and there were 554 00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:25.480 other issues that came up that that would have really shaken the Republic in the 555 00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:30.119 Senate's understanding of the Jedi and even some of the Jedi themselves in terms of 556 00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:35.880 this challenge they faced. And Yoda explicitly decides to keep that a secret and 557 00:43:35.880 --> 00:43:37.880 to erase it from the Jedi archives, and not only not tell the Republic 558 00:43:37.880 --> 00:43:40.159 of the Senate, but not tell anyone else in the Jedi. And I 559 00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:44.920 think that it's very intentionally a like, yeah, they like a lot of 560 00:43:44.920 --> 00:43:49.639 institutions. Do you know, this is exactly a problem with Catholic Church or 561 00:43:49.960 --> 00:43:52.840 you know, governments that will say, well, we know we made a 562 00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:54.960 mistake, but we need people to trust us, so we can't admit our 563 00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:59.840 mistakes publicly because then people will see us in a bad light or something like 564 00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:01.480 that, you know, And and they're all to convinced themselves of doing the 565 00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:07.159 right thing for the greater cause, but of course it's not. Yeah, 566 00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:12.719 and I suspect or hope. I don't know that we are going to get 567 00:44:12.880 --> 00:44:17.119 more of that story in live action with the Accolades show. Yeah, it 568 00:44:17.239 --> 00:44:22.079 takes place approximately one hundred years before Phantom Menace. That there's going to be 569 00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:25.360 some kind of Oh no, it's the Sith like, well, we better 570 00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:30.320 cover it up. Yeah, I think that may well happen. We'll see, 571 00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:35.519 we'll see one other character. I want to throw out something else that 572 00:44:35.559 --> 00:44:38.400 people mentioned in a Facebook post I put up about this, the character of 573 00:44:38.440 --> 00:44:45.920 kill Monger in the movie Black Panther. You have t'chala and I think his 574 00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:47.320 first name is Eric I forget, I forget, But you know the person 575 00:44:47.559 --> 00:44:52.840 uh known as Killmonger, and they are both princes of Wakanda, but they 576 00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:59.360 have these incredible different upbringings and wind up going to incredibly different places. How 577 00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:02.039 much of that do you think is the different circumstances they had versus just being 578 00:45:02.039 --> 00:45:08.280 different people. Oh, we'll go, we'll go to nature versus nurture. 579 00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:12.360 I mean that's kind of what a lot of this is about, right, 580 00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:17.719 Yeah, Uh, I mean the way it's presented I think a lot of 581 00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:22.840 it is which word do I want? A lot of it is nurture, 582 00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:30.480 right, because kill Monger is presented as a person who grew up in the 583 00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:38.280 United States of Oakland, I believe, yeah, and saw the racial inequity 584 00:45:39.159 --> 00:45:44.679 in this country. M h. And then once he came to be aware 585 00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:50.800 of the existence of wakana and their power, basically I asked like, why 586 00:45:51.199 --> 00:45:57.639 why are you letting this happen out here? And and so without that experience, 587 00:45:57.679 --> 00:46:01.960 without his upbringing the United States, it's like he probably doesn't have those 588 00:46:01.960 --> 00:46:06.679 feelings, right, Well, certainly T'Challa has the exact opposite. Then he 589 00:46:06.760 --> 00:46:09.639 has a fairly you could say, a really wonderful upbringing, and you also 590 00:46:09.639 --> 00:46:14.280 say a very entitled upbringing. But either way privileged, right yeah, well 591 00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:19.159 Kandon privilege yeah, And and so on the one hand, he's not driven 592 00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:22.039 by that anger, but also that he doesn't he doesn't have that same need 593 00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:25.440 to go out and fix these things until they're pointed out to him in that 594 00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:34.519 same way. Yeah, to'challa doesn't see them. Probably he's never he's never 595 00:46:34.599 --> 00:46:38.760 experienced that, right, And and there again that's one of those situations where 596 00:46:39.320 --> 00:46:44.639 to kill Monger's father is killed in part to cover up and that these stories 597 00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:51.320 are never told. And I believe in the first movie, uh Nakia right 598 00:46:51.480 --> 00:46:55.639 like tries to tell him some of the stuff that's going on, and she's 599 00:46:55.760 --> 00:47:00.960 kind of like that moderate position of trying to trying to convey it's him before 600 00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:07.239 Killmonger comes along. Yep, yep. So all right, well, this 601 00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:08.440 has been a great conversation, Riki, thank you so much. Any of 602 00:47:08.440 --> 00:47:10.800 the last comments you want to make or points you want to bring up, 603 00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:20.639 Yes, I want to ask Disney Star Wars to give me the show I 604 00:47:20.679 --> 00:47:29.920 want now of like post imperial fall, war crimes tribunals. I don't know. 605 00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:34.559 I don't know if we did that at Star Wars, but we are 606 00:47:34.639 --> 00:47:43.719 getting some interesting storylines in like the Mando era of ex imperials still in power 607 00:47:44.199 --> 00:47:47.760 within the New Republic and Undermanda. We're getting we're getting the idea that there 608 00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:52.519 are some war crimes trials happening, but also a lot of people being forgiven 609 00:47:52.639 --> 00:47:55.639 if they will be kind of like good Republic citizens. You know, I 610 00:47:55.880 --> 00:47:59.039 think that, Yeah to me, I watched that one episode and I was 611 00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:00.920 like, why don't you give me a whole shit about this. This looks 612 00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:07.800 phenomenal. Yeah, I mean, and I I kind of joked, but 613 00:48:07.079 --> 00:48:15.119 I think to some degree they need to do more with that idea to explain 614 00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:20.119 the first order. Yeah, because when when the when the post Wool movies 615 00:48:20.159 --> 00:48:22.920 came out, a lot of us were like, how did this happen? 616 00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:27.719 Like how was the how did the first Order just kind of like flip a 617 00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:34.480 switch and take over again? And they are starting to fill those gaps. 618 00:48:34.519 --> 00:48:37.599 And I think a lot of those gaps have to be that the new the 619 00:48:37.639 --> 00:48:42.119 New Republic was not as good as you know, we would like to think 620 00:48:42.159 --> 00:48:46.239 it was. Well, I think it faced a very difficult question, which 621 00:48:46.440 --> 00:48:53.039 is and and you know throughout history, like democracies that are established in the 622 00:48:53.079 --> 00:49:00.079 wake of a recent overthrow authoritarianism have a very bad success rate, like they 623 00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:07.199 often will fall back into authoritarianism again, particularly if time isn't set spent setting 624 00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:12.559 up democratic institutions and social institutions that can help carry it. A lot of 625 00:49:12.679 --> 00:49:15.519 nations of Africa are great examples of this, where the English and French and 626 00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:20.960 Belgians, in many cases quite intentionally, we're just like, Okay, you 627 00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:22.360 don't want to be an armpire or more we're just gone, We're not gonna 628 00:49:22.360 --> 00:49:25.159 do anything to help you transition. And a lot of the places there were 629 00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:30.159 elections held and those governments were seen as illegitimate, and then fairly quickly authoritarians 630 00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:37.039 took over, often with either CIA or KGB support. And yeah, and 631 00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:38.559 so to me, this question of the new Republic of where it's like, 632 00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:45.159 yeah, what does it do because on the one hand, it wants to 633 00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:49.599 be super democratic, it wants to be not authoritarian, but then with their 634 00:49:49.639 --> 00:49:53.559 problems on the outer rim happening, how do you not be authoritarian but also 635 00:49:53.679 --> 00:49:57.679 not you know, if you don't impose law and order, does that mean 636 00:49:57.719 --> 00:50:00.360 the huts and and everyone else just takes so over? And how do you 637 00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:04.920 find that balance that. It's a topic. It's starting to get explored in 638 00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:12.079 some books. The book what's it called Bloodline is one I think you would 639 00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:14.880 really really like. I think that's when we talked to it upfortunately, Yeah, 640 00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:17.599 yeah, yeah, exactly, yep, But yeah, I would love 641 00:50:17.599 --> 00:50:22.480 to see that more explored further. The last thing I'll just say about this 642 00:50:22.719 --> 00:50:28.119 is do you know much about the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission? I 643 00:50:28.159 --> 00:50:31.920 do not so it is a model that I want, I want us to 644 00:50:31.960 --> 00:50:35.599 follow more in the real world. But I also think would really be applicable 645 00:50:35.599 --> 00:50:37.159 in a place like this because it's and I think it's one of those brilliant 646 00:50:37.159 --> 00:50:42.360 things Nelson Mandela ever did, which is he said, look, we need 647 00:50:42.400 --> 00:50:45.679 to really know the truth of all the terrible things that happened and are apartheid, 648 00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:49.639 and all the things that individual people did and that that collectively happened, 649 00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:53.840 but that if we're ever to heal as a society, this can't be about 650 00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:57.360 now the black people are in power and so we're going to punish all the 651 00:50:57.360 --> 00:51:00.039 white people for all that they did to us. We need to heal and 652 00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:04.519 move forward. And so the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was all about exactly that. 653 00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:07.800 It's about learning the truth, finding ways to have reconciliation without it being 654 00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:15.039 about punishing or like criminalizing the actions that happened under apartheid. And in some 655 00:51:15.079 --> 00:51:17.679 ways that's what I I think there are people who are like, wait a 656 00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:21.119 minute, people who are you know, doing horrible things that are apartheid got 657 00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:22.480 off the hook, and that's not fair, and I think there's some legitimacy 658 00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:27.800 to that but overall, I think it's looked at as much more successful way 659 00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:31.920 of getting past a terrible situation like what happened there than in a lot of 660 00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:35.400 other places where they never really be able to get past you know, Okay, 661 00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:37.079 well we're in power now and we're so angry at you for what you 662 00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:40.920 did for fifty years and all this kind of stuff, And I think that 663 00:51:40.920 --> 00:51:45.039 that's the kind of thing that I feel like if that had happened, that 664 00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:46.880 might help prevent the First Order. And that's yeah, that's a story. 665 00:51:47.239 --> 00:51:52.000 Like I would love to now have another conversation about who's responsible for the First 666 00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:57.719 Order? And is it you know, is it just Palpatine and Snoke and 667 00:51:58.320 --> 00:52:02.880 Kylo Wren? Is that Leah and Luke? Is it Luke for going off 668 00:52:02.880 --> 00:52:07.559 and doing his own thing? Is it the people that do Republic? It's 669 00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:12.000 mon Mathma? Yeah? I hate I hate to say it because I love 670 00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:15.039 her so much as a character, and especially like what's going on with her 671 00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:21.000 character in and Or is amazing. But at least the way, you know, 672 00:52:21.039 --> 00:52:24.239 the books that we've read, like what they seem to be establishing is 673 00:52:24.280 --> 00:52:31.360 that Mon Mathma didn't have a plan or did not execute the plan well, 674 00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:39.039 like post fall of the empire and disbanded the military too quickly and too suddenly, 675 00:52:39.159 --> 00:52:46.079 and just thought that things would return to old old republic standards when when 676 00:52:46.079 --> 00:52:50.519 it's it's difficult to do that, like as you just said, like the 677 00:52:50.559 --> 00:52:58.679 first generation after the fall of an authoritarian regime, I think it's very important 678 00:52:58.920 --> 00:53:07.239 to establish like ground rules and say and to shut out some of those old 679 00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:15.400 members from power. Like I've talked in the past about how post imperial Japan, 680 00:53:15.920 --> 00:53:22.639 like the first prime minister after the US occupation was actually someone who was 681 00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:29.079 part of the old regime and was even charged with war crimes, convicted of 682 00:53:29.079 --> 00:53:31.639 war crimes like minor, you know, as minor as war crimes can be, 683 00:53:31.639 --> 00:53:36.480 but they're convicted of minor war crimes, and then became prime minister of 684 00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:43.679 post war Japan, and that you know, Japan is a country is peaceful, 685 00:53:44.480 --> 00:53:52.360 but there are still like these tendencies, especially like in government that unfortunately, 686 00:53:52.360 --> 00:53:58.079 like I could see a return to like not necessarily empire, but definitely 687 00:53:58.119 --> 00:54:05.000 like an authoritarian, militaristic country. Yeah. Well, and certainly we're seeing 688 00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:07.719 that in a lot of parts of Europe right now, Eastern Europe especially but 689 00:54:07.760 --> 00:54:10.960 also you know, fascist parties in the Rising, Germany and here in the 690 00:54:12.039 --> 00:54:15.480 United States. So yeah, on that cheery note, thank you so much 691 00:54:15.519 --> 00:54:19.760 listeners for being a part of this. You're fantastic as always, Riekey and 692 00:54:19.760 --> 00:54:21.920 I love having you be a part of this. As I said at the 693 00:54:21.960 --> 00:54:23.639 beginning, please think about becoming a member. You're gonna get bonus content. 694 00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:27.480 Reake and I are about to talk about the Accolyte for a few moments. 695 00:54:27.960 --> 00:54:31.960 Our hopes and fears about that. You get member free episode, member bonus 696 00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:35.920 episodes, and most importantly, you're helping to keep us going, keep our 697 00:54:36.079 --> 00:54:37.440 keep the lights on, all those other good things. So please become a 698 00:54:37.480 --> 00:54:39.800 member. Send in your feedback, let's know what you think. We love 699 00:54:39.800 --> 00:54:44.559 getting all your thoughts on behalf of myself and Riki. Thank you so much 700 00:54:44.599 --> 00:54:45.719 for being a part of this. We have spoken