WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:12.279 Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. We talk often about 2 00:00:12.279 --> 00:00:17.879 the idea that superheroes are creatures of mythology, both the kind of modern myths 3 00:00:17.879 --> 00:00:22.039 that they talk about, but also that like they echo for us the role 4 00:00:22.120 --> 00:00:25.600 that ancient myths have often played, and many of them are based off of 5 00:00:25.640 --> 00:00:31.280 ancient myths, even metaphorically down to Hercules, a literal character. And we 6 00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:34.920 talk about that term mythology so often, but what does it actually mean, 7 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:40.759 What is mythology and how does it apply to the stories we love and how 8 00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:44.000 have people written about this? And so we're going to kick this off with 9 00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:51.799 Professor Matthew Cappelle recently of Montclair State University, the Fighting RedHawks, And anytime 10 00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:56.719 Matthew has been on this podcast before, the topics such as mythology and anthropology 11 00:00:56.759 --> 00:00:59.079 and all these things come up, and I've always thought, you know, 12 00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:02.159 I'd love to dive deeper into this, and so today that's exactly what we're 13 00:01:02.200 --> 00:01:06.719 gonna do. We're gonna start with just a discussion of mythology itself and then 14 00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:10.599 look at one of the kind of seminal works in the field of mythology, 15 00:01:10.959 --> 00:01:15.120 the myth of the American Superhero, which applies to so much of the stuff 16 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:17.719 we've talked about, and that's going to kind of be something we're going to 17 00:01:17.799 --> 00:01:19.159 go back to from time to time. I know at a later point, 18 00:01:19.159 --> 00:01:23.159 Matthew and I am also going to talk about Joseph Campbell and the Hero of 19 00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:26.120 a Thousand Faces and all that kind of stuff. Matthew has been making a 20 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:30.439 facial expression indicating his fondness for that book. But we're starting out, like 21 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:34.159 I said, just with mythology itself. And so here's a nice simple question 22 00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:40.760 for the professor. What is mythology? Oh no, I have no idea. 23 00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:47.120 Mythologies might might be slightly different than myths. So can we start with 24 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:49.599 myth? Sure? Yeah, what is a moth? Okay, what is 25 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:57.439 a myth? What do you think of myth is? So I approached this, 26 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:00.239 I will say as a biblical scholar, and that's the way I come 27 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:04.840 from it. The simple definition I would use is that a myth is a 28 00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:09.520 story that contains truth but not necessarily fact, and that whether or not it's 29 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:16.120 factual is actually fairly irrelevant. Oh. I love that definition. That's a 30 00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:20.879 that's a really good definition. We can go with that. My definition my 31 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:25.319 definition is, and I'm stealing it from a much more important scholar than I 32 00:02:25.319 --> 00:02:32.919 would ever be. My definition of myth is a story with an ideology in 33 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:38.120 it, right, So it's a it's a narrative with an ideology. Yeah. 34 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:44.400 That is to say, humans tell stories, and our stories have significant 35 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:50.240 leanings towards points of view, and when we all tell stories that give similar 36 00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:53.879 ideologies, we're talking about myths and the stories. It does not matter at 37 00:02:53.919 --> 00:03:00.560 all if the stories are true or not, because they actually are true. 38 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:04.960 So maybe we should start by dispensing with the notion that myth means false. 39 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:08.000 Yeah, so let me talk more about how I see it, because again 40 00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:13.919 I would happily talk about most of the Biblical stories as myths, and I 41 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:15.680 don't use that. I'm a person who loves the Bible. It's the seminal 42 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:20.400 work of literature in my world, of many others as well, and so 43 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:23.840 they seem any problems in it. But one of the things that I learned 44 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:29.159 in scholarship, and I'm curious if you have other this is me remembering theories 45 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:34.120 from twenty years ago. But basically, it's the idea that we in the 46 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:40.360 modern age find it hard to understand how the limits of human knowledge. Back 47 00:03:40.360 --> 00:03:43.800 in the time most of these myths were written or come up with. But 48 00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:50.039 it's especially before the Enlightenment and before the scientific revolution, and that in most 49 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:53.599 of the world, like there was interesting science being done, but most questions 50 00:03:54.039 --> 00:04:00.360 people approached with the idea like that when people talked about a pulling a chariot 51 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:06.120 of fire across the sky, if you asked someone, do you think that 52 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:10.680 that is literally what is happening? It's not that they would say, no, 53 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:13.680 it's a myth. I know that it's false. It's that the very 54 00:04:13.719 --> 00:04:16.800 idea of asking that question wouldn't make any sense to them. That for a 55 00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:23.120 large extent, the idea was you came up with stories that helped you explain 56 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:28.319 the truth of a situation because you're not really thinking about is this factual or 57 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:30.319 not? And so you know, again with like a lot of the Biblical 58 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:32.079 stories, you can see it that way, a lot of the Greek myths, 59 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:36.360 you'd see it that way, even to the point where you know with 60 00:04:36.439 --> 00:04:41.319 some of the stories in the Bible or some other myths, like we know 61 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:45.680 there are some true things that we know. There was a flood in Mesopotamia 62 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:50.560 around about the time of the flood mythology story being created. We know there 63 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:55.600 was an actual person named Jesus at some point. He was killed by the 64 00:04:55.720 --> 00:05:00.680 Romans, as they killed many people at that time. But the point is 65 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:02.040 that, like whether it's based in some sort of like what you know, 66 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:04.279 the same way. King Arthur is another great you know, we know with 67 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:08.120 our pen dragon I'm probably getting the name wrong, but we know there was 68 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:13.240 some night in a king in Wales at some point that inspired the myths and 69 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:15.920 the legends of Arthur. And in all these cases, whether it's whether it's 70 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:19.040 based in a fact or not to me is not the question. It's the 71 00:05:19.639 --> 00:05:25.079 what is the truth that it tells us? Is that? How much that 72 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:27.680 would you have? If that's my paper? What great am I getting? 73 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:30.759 What? What revisions am I being told to made? Oh? That's a 74 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:33.439 straight B plus, well done? Okay, there we go, There we 75 00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:40.000 go. I was just being made that was that's a great definition, and 76 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:47.759 I would probably get sut her name. So we have this notion that we 77 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:53.800 can talk about other people and their myths, but we don't talk about ourselves 78 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:59.000 and to our myths. And that's because the definitions we want to hang onto 79 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:04.000 for myth don't really deal with truth in contemporary culture, which is why people 80 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:08.879 can't go, oh, that story, that's just a myth. But in 81 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:14.160 reality, the fact that the story has relevance means it's just a myth. 82 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:19.959 But that's a different thing than saying it's just a myth, right, And 83 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:28.800 I think the classic example is the worst president after Franklin Delano Roosevelt is hands 84 00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:32.519 down until recently, Reagan and Reagan used to just to be clear, if 85 00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:36.720 you mean the worst president since FDR, not that FDR is one of the 86 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:41.879 worst presidents, Am I correct? That's correct? Okay, I'm just going 87 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:46.199 post World War two. If I had to pick a worst president before the 88 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:50.040 most recent last guy, I would have picked Reagan. And one of the 89 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:55.720 things Reagan used to do is talk about what we now think of as the 90 00:06:55.759 --> 00:07:00.000 myth of the welfare queen. This woman who doesn't work and lots of kids 91 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:05.600 by lots of men and has a Cadillac in front of her house because welfares 92 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:12.279 pan for everything. This person never ever existed, but the story keeps getting 93 00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:16.399 told, and the ideology behind the story, the racism, the lack of 94 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:26.000 acceptance of public help, means that it is a truthful story in that it 95 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:30.600 affects the way we behave even though the actual facts of it aren't correct, 96 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:36.759 And because it is such an incredibly racist form of a kind of mythology in 97 00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:45.959 American society, we can also point out that Americans easily accepts stories with narrative 98 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:49.800 truths in them, with narrative values in them, with ideologies in them, 99 00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:56.360 if they are in any way paler parallel to their current belief system. And 100 00:07:56.560 --> 00:08:00.800 a lot of Americans, okay, let's say all Americans are kind of racist. 101 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:05.600 So it's an easy story to pass off as truth, which is why 102 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:09.360 it gets retold, which is why it's a myth. But to say it's 103 00:08:09.399 --> 00:08:15.079 just a myth is not an insult. I would say the virgin birth is 104 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:20.160 just a myth, by which I mean whether it happened or not. The 105 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:24.279 way we tell the story is the important part, not whether it happened or 106 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:28.160 not. And I think that's a really important thing, is that we're not 107 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:31.639 using the phrase just a myth, And the idea that because it's a myth 108 00:08:31.679 --> 00:08:37.679 it's not important is not as relevant. And it's funny when you mentioned Reagan, 109 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:39.840 I thought you were going to go in a very different direction, though, 110 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:43.639 I think it's just as mythological and certainly still very alive today, which 111 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:46.759 is the myth of the perfect America, you know, and that Reagan and 112 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:50.799 certainly more recent people have really tried to go back to. You know, 113 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:54.039 why, you know, why aren't we telling the story about how America is 114 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:56.919 the greatest nation in the world and it's always has been, and the divine 115 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:01.600 providence was very much a part of our myth for a long time. In 116 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:05.080 that myth, we don't talk about slavery and the internment of the Japanese and 117 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:09.519 the horal treatment of Mexicans and Native Americans and all that kind of stuff. 118 00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:13.080 Pulling back though a bit, or actually maybe say narrowing the lens a bit, 119 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:16.759 is it fair to say that not only do we have myths on sort 120 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:22.080 of cultural national levels, but can families have their own myths? Like when 121 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:26.279 you know, people talk about, oh, great Grandpa, you know, 122 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:30.879 he always loved doing this, and he he you know, loved great Grandma 123 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:35.360 so much they built this heart. Like the stories that get passed down generation 124 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:39.759 to generation. I feel like just because the way people tell stories, things 125 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:43.200 get exaggerated, things get misremembered the truth of the story of him, you 126 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:48.360 know, your great grandpa being the embodiment of thrift or of love, or 127 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:52.159 of whatever virtue it is. There's some truth there perhaps, but really it's 128 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:56.120 just a story that the family tells to pass on a value that the family 129 00:09:56.159 --> 00:09:58.200 wants to pass on to their kids. Is that would that fit also within 130 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:01.840 the realm of mythology or a myth, Yes, yes, I would say 131 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:05.240 it does. I think there are some myth scholars who would disagree with me 132 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:11.120 on that. But but I tend to be very anthropological in my idea of 133 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:16.600 myth, which means I think everybody is making myth all the time. So 134 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:22.000 who doesn't have a story if they're in a long term relationship or have been 135 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:28.600 about how we met and we all tell that story. Or my spouse and 136 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:33.639 I tell the story of how she woke me up one morning and went if 137 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:37.759 we get downtown, they can marry us, but we have to be there 138 00:10:37.799 --> 00:10:43.399 before noon. Yeah, And we had to get married because they was moving 139 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:48.480 overseason. The country would not give her a visa, So we went and 140 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:52.960 we got married so we could get a visa. And it's a great story. 141 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:56.159 So we tell it all the time when people ask, because we literally 142 00:10:56.200 --> 00:11:01.919 got up and ran to downtown Detroit and got married and went to my absolute 143 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:05.360 favorite building in Detroit, which doesn't matter, and then then we were able 144 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:11.639 to move to you know, Wales and hang out with the myth of Arthur 145 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:16.120 Pendragon nice And so what is mythology? Then? I think, I think 146 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:18.480 I have an idea of it, and if I'm right, it's going to 147 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:22.519 lead into my next topic. But what is mythology? Well, simply it's 148 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:28.120 just the study of myth, right, But there's two ways to think about 149 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:37.200 this. Myth scholars are are often shunted to the side. So in myth 150 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:41.840 scholarship, there's not really a meeting week it to go to. There's a 151 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:46.679 religious group of scholars in the United States, and myth would be there, 152 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:56.600 like I don't know, Bastard Nephew. Myth is not considered important to scholars 153 00:11:56.600 --> 00:12:01.559 of religion generally, but but there's no place else you can go. There 154 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:05.159 was a very famous historian who in the early nineteen eighties was president of the 155 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:13.120 American Historical Association who specifically said myth and history are really close together, and 156 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:16.799 nobody would listen to him. After that interesting. He was a professor at 157 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:20.759 Chicago, Great Book myth History. He wrote a book, and I, 158 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:24.440 as a historian, I completely agree with him. I think history is just 159 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:33.279 myth with footnotes. So myth scholars have that problem. So instead of saying 160 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:37.759 we study mythology, myth scholars tend to be people who go, yeah, 161 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:43.879 I study myth I do mythography. I write about myth because mythography sounds like 162 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:48.440 a fancier word than mythology. You can add oology to the end of anything, 163 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:54.519 right, yea man, we do, But mythography is a whole different 164 00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:58.320 ball of kittens. Well, and it's interest. I would think that it 165 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:03.279 would fit well into anthropology or perhaps sociology, as they like, Look, 166 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:07.720 this is a thing that communities do and the way that they passed down history 167 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:11.600 and stuff. I'm guessing there's a connection between the whole, like our modernistic 168 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:15.919 take of oh, it's just a myth, a myth means it's false, 169 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:20.039 and the idea that mythology is kind of the redheaded stepchild of this part of 170 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:22.159 academia. I say that as a redhead with a stepmother. To be clear, 171 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:35.320 Yeah, anthropologists are of course always better at everything than everybody else spoken 172 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:41.799 as a true anthropologist. Yeah, anthropologists are much friendlier towards myth, but 173 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:46.480 they also as a as a group have tended to be like, myth is 174 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:48.720 just one of the little things we have to take care of so we can 175 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:50.720 get to the stuff that matters. And the stuff that matters is a myth. 176 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:56.440 And there's a very famous anthropological story that I tell in my intro classes 177 00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:03.960 all the time, which is I think it was a Linquist, really not 178 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:09.080 an anthropologist, who's talking to a Native American and the Native Americans said, 179 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:11.960 why is it what you believe is religion? But what I believe is a 180 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:18.159 myth. Yeah, that's a great question. And that is how we others. 181 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:22.080 We talk about other people's myths, we don't talk about our myths. 182 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:28.480 Yeah, and that's a nice way of creating a really great social distinction. 183 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:31.360 Yeah. I mean, and that's why for me as a Christian, I 184 00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:33.919 promise is not gonna be about my religion all all episode. But just to 185 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:39.480 say this, that's part of why I very intentionally talk about my religion as 186 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:41.919 mythology. And both to say that doesn't I don't think that means it's not 187 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:46.279 important or there isn't some truth there, but that to me, the connection 188 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:50.440 to historical reality is not what matters, and I'm never going to make a 189 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:56.679 claim of historical reality to it. So with all that, so so with 190 00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:00.480 all that, I'm really glad we're going to to explore that. We'll get 191 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:01.799 to kind of the heroes part of it in a bit. And this is 192 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:03.840 actually, I think a good way to lead into it, one of the 193 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:07.799 additional things that I think of with myths and and tell And this is what 194 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:11.480 I was I was wondering maybe this would be the definition mythology. I totally 195 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:16.240 get where I was way off. But as I understand it, not only 196 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:22.559 do individual myths have this power, but that when a community has central myths 197 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:26.360 that are passed down through the community. And again that can be you know, 198 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:31.240 parents teaching their kids about you know, what the what happened when you 199 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:35.360 know Grandma came over on the boat one hundred years ago, or great great 200 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:39.279 grandma whatever it is, or you know, a group of you know, 201 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:43.399 believers in a faith, tradition or a nation or city or whatever. That 202 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:50.279 a lot of what the myth becomes then is kind of the the shared language 203 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:56.360 that people can use to have discussions because it's very hard to talk about values 204 00:15:56.399 --> 00:15:58.080 and things like that in the abstract. But that a lot of times, 205 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:03.039 you know, well, we'll look at like, Okay, George Washington is 206 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:07.320 the symbol of American honesty and forthrightness. And then when we discuss that, 207 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:11.279 sometimes you know, people will reference like, you know, what if what 208 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:17.759 if Washington hadn't you know I told people about the apple tree or whatever it 209 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:21.919 is that like or same in like you know that that religious traditions, it 210 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:26.279 is often people talk talking about different interpretations of the story or as we'll get 211 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:30.759 to the book that we're talking about a little bit today. Makes a great 212 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:33.840 case that others have made as well that Star Trek is a community that has 213 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.240 a shared mythology. And when people come together like we do on this podcast 214 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:41.080 to talk about the shared myths of the Enterprise or of the Jedi or things 215 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:45.360 like that, what's the role in mythology of it being something that people can 216 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:49.200 discuss like that. If you've ever been in a group of people that you 217 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:53.840 have nothing to talk about with, yeah, it's really hard. Yeah, 218 00:16:55.039 --> 00:17:00.879 shared shared myths are a thing you you did something that I had planned to 219 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.880 do, which is do the Washington thing. But you know, Americans know 220 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:11.480 they're George Washington stories and they're Abraham Lincoln stories. And you know, so 221 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:15.359 I think Lincoln is footprints on the ceiling of the log cabin kind of stuff 222 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:21.000 in mud. And we tell these stories because they bring us together as a 223 00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:27.000 community and because they give us something ideological to hang onto. And if you 224 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:32.240 don't have those two things in a group, you don't have a group. 225 00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:37.680 So what myth does is offers the social blue that holds communities together, right, 226 00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:45.039 And in that sense, myths are probably the most important thing in a 227 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:51.720 society that doesn't get studied by scholars. Yeah, and especially because these I 228 00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:56.799 understand it. Sometimes, you know, conflict and community can often happen because 229 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:00.240 people are, whether explicitly or implicitly, they have different ideas of the myth, 230 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:03.920 you know. I mean that's right now in the United States. One 231 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:08.319 of the biggest social conflicts we have is over different interpretations of what does America 232 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:11.920 mean? And was it great? Or was it not? Or what does 233 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:15.279 all that mean? Or you know, just families arguing and things like that. 234 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:18.759 And again, I don't know how it quite with us in the academic 235 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:22.680 terms, but it seems that like a lot of times, when a community 236 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:27.279 argues over a shared mythology, that can either lead to a change in the 237 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:30.759 community and the community kind of adopting something new, or a split in the 238 00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:36.240 community where one group breaks off, you know where, because they have a 239 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:38.480 different idea of what the mythology is or what it means or what it should 240 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:47.000 be. Yes, let's let's let's try Let's go back to star Trek and 241 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:52.000 try it that way. So there's an anthropologist named Conrad Philip Kotech. I'm 242 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:56.599 just putting his name out there because he's worth picking up some of his stuff. 243 00:18:56.559 --> 00:19:03.160 And my wife knows him, and he has this book called Primetime Society 244 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:08.319 that you would not believe what he says about Star Truck, but it's perfect. 245 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:12.880 I mean, I think he's right. If you're of a certain generation 246 00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:18.880 like old, like me, you probably grew up with certain things happening around 247 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:23.079 Thanksgiving in your school. Maybe there was a Thanksgiving play, and some people 248 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:30.759 were the Puritans Pilgrims, and some people were the Native Americans, the Indians, 249 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:34.720 and one person was the jerky maybe, and we tell the Thanksgiving story 250 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:41.240 over and over again, and we have since the Civil War and that story 251 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:45.960 is about bringing separate communities together and showing how separate communities can work together. 252 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:52.440 And so Conrad Philip Kotech said, and that is exactly what the Bridge of 253 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:59.839 the Enterprise does as well. It is a reformatting of America's Thanksgiving mythology. 254 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:03.240 People of different backgrounds, who look different, who act different, who have 255 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:08.799 different languages, can come together and be one unified thing, which is a 256 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:15.400 central part of American mythology. Right, So the question isn't is that true 257 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:18.160 for most Americans? The question is which people can't be part of it? 258 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:25.279 That's the thing Americans argue about, which is when I teach history, I 259 00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:27.799 always make people read this Ben Franklin thing where he's like, We're not going 260 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:33.960 to be true Americans because there's too many Germans moving here. And he was 261 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:41.079 like, really upset about the Germans. And it's Ben Franklin. And we've 262 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:42.880 been doing that ever since. It's the Now it's this group, and now 263 00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:48.240 it's that group, and a generation later that group is very American and it's 264 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:52.960 fitty. So the myth works to affect a way for people to become part 265 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:57.359 of the society. And it's funny because because again here, maybe this is 266 00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:03.599 the conflict over different ways of of of interpreting the myth because that assimilation that 267 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:07.599 happens, which and that's a very loaded word, I mean in a varie 268 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:11.480 of different ways that can be very much a part of the myth. But 269 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:17.359 also that when the people object to those groups, it's almost always couched in 270 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:21.880 the language of they don't share our values, they're not like us. They 271 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:26.599 will make America different. And at heart, isn't that basically just a they're 272 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:32.119 going to change the myth. They're gonna they're gonna challenge the mythological understanding that 273 00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:36.799 we have. Yes, let me tell you a story I think. I 274 00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:41.720 think a podcast about myth in a general sense needs me to say a lot. 275 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:45.960 Let me tell you a story in American history, it's a really big 276 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:53.480 deal that Ford offered his employees five dollars a day. It's a really big 277 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:59.519 important thing. Henry Ford, the original founder of the Henry Henry Ford, 278 00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:07.319 founder the Ford Motor Company, at one point decided to essentially pay his employees 279 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.480 twice what anybody else would pay them. People were getting two fifty a day 280 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:15.200 and he was paying them five bucks a day. But that's the story we 281 00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:21.000 tell, but the background to that story is different, because the background is 282 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:26.200 Ford had people going to their employees houses to make sure they were living appropriately 283 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:30.960 before they got the raise. And living appropriately was is English spoken in this 284 00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:37.519 home? Is are the children being reared in an American way, which at 285 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:45.519 the time was a big deal. Our people behaving in a proper Christian fashion. 286 00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:49.720 And there were certain kinds of wasps that were acceptable and others that were 287 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:56.279 not. And it was not actually so much as like Ford was giving people 288 00:22:56.319 --> 00:23:00.960 five bucks a day so they could afford to buy a Ford product, it 289 00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:04.519 turned out for it was giving people five dollars a day so that they would 290 00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:08.359 change the way that they behave to be more American as he saw fit right, 291 00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:14.079 And that is that's how we do it right. And isn't that often 292 00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:18.000 the case? Is that the myth not always, but that myths are very 293 00:23:18.039 --> 00:23:22.079 often a positive passing down of tradition. And so of course you leave out 294 00:23:22.119 --> 00:23:26.359 the bad stuff, you know, you leave out that great great Grandpa was 295 00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:29.759 terrible, the great great grandma, or that you know, the American nation 296 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:33.000 was founded on slavery and genocide of the Native peoples and all these kind of 297 00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:38.599 things, and I'm seeing an interesting and I promise where you get to the 298 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:41.599 superhero part. That's kind of the last thing I want to bring up on 299 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:45.680 this general point. Do you think this is fair to say that one of 300 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:49.759 the things that we're seeing in our society today is that social media, and 301 00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:56.160 particularly the fact that we can learn so much more about the people who are 302 00:23:56.279 --> 00:23:59.960 often mythologized, is breaking down a lot of myths. And it's not just 303 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:03.359 social media, it's the press. Is the just closer connections and well, 304 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:07.119 because I think, you know, we've had the myth of like the American 305 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:11.119 entrepreneur who becomes very rich and makes the world a better place, and everything 306 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:15.119 they did was smart, and maybe they were a little bit cutthroat, but 307 00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:19.279 they made the world a better place. When we can see Elon Musk's tweets 308 00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:23.799 and have that direct access, that loses a lot. But it's also the 309 00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:30.680 same thing of you know, Babe Ruth was this mythological baseball figure because the 310 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:33.480 writers didn't talk about his womanizing or his drinking or his drunkenness or all the 311 00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:37.279 kind of stuff that today is going to be all over the papers, and 312 00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:41.319 so it seems and I think the same way in Great Britain, where the 313 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:48.000 royal family has become a lot less mythologized because the people now have so much 314 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:51.799 more access through the press and direct appearances and stuff like that. Do you 315 00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:55.319 think there's a fair commentary there that even just in the last hundred years and 316 00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:59.799 then especially in the last ten or twenty, that those myths are are being 317 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.559 harnished a lot because we have so much more direct contact with the people who 318 00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:11.240 are making them or they're about. Like, I think that myths work best 319 00:25:11.319 --> 00:25:15.519 when most people don't notice that they're myths. Yeah. Right, So once 320 00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:21.480 you start seeing something that used to be a story we told that you are 321 00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:26.559 now being exposed very directly. This is not true. It's hard to see 322 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:30.119 it as a unifying story for a culture. But at the same time, 323 00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:36.079 that doesn't mean that there are no myths. It just means that you have 324 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:38.920 to find the new myths. Yeah, and what are the new myths? 325 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.319 And that's an interesting question that leads right to superheroes. What are the new 326 00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:51.640 myths? Because yeah, no, I don't think if I were to say, 327 00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:56.079 in a history class, which I also teach history, if I were 328 00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:00.799 to give the whole like throwing a silver dollar across the comic story for Washington, 329 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:04.640 or I cannot tell a lie. I cut down the cherry Tree Washington 330 00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:08.359 story. My students, at least when I was teaching in Manhattan, my 331 00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:12.519 students would have been like, you should probably be talking about how many slaves 332 00:26:12.519 --> 00:26:18.880 he owned. Yeah, because that myth no longer holds water for them. 333 00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:23.960 It does not work. But so you that doesn't mean we have no myths. 334 00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:27.680 It means the myths are different. Yeah. In fact, one of 335 00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:33.599 the myths, one of the really important myths, is the myth of mythlessness, 336 00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:37.279 more than the myth that we the myth that we have no myths, 337 00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:42.920 the story that we've we've progressed, one of the great American myths is progressed. 338 00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:48.640 We've progressed so far that we don't need myths anymore. Well, especially 339 00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:52.920 because I wonder if we talked about the new myth. I'm pulling us back 340 00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:56.079 to the real world for a second, and then I'm not even keep saying 341 00:26:56.079 --> 00:26:59.720 that you know, and because like you know again, just to do the 342 00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:03.279 one more real world example and about mythology and conflict. It feels to me 343 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:07.160 like with someone like Elon Musk, but also someone like Carnegie. We've always 344 00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:11.960 had two myths that are kind of running concurrently. One is of the nobleman 345 00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:17.759 who is very smart and very dedicated and hard working and pulls him up by 346 00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:22.480 his own bootstraps and thus makes the world a better place because he makes so 347 00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:26.160 much money and makes a product everyone wants and then starts Carnegie Mellon University or 348 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:30.039 whatever. And then the second myth, which is I think for the most 349 00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:34.799 part secondary but sometimes is more in ascendance, is the myth of the greedy 350 00:27:34.839 --> 00:27:40.839 millionaire that Americans have to unify to fight against, and that can even be 351 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:42.720 a trip like and there's a way to make the revolution part of that, 352 00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:48.200 where King George and the English are that. And I think in our lifetimes 353 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:51.920 we've seen Elon Musk switch from one to the other. Like I remember ten 354 00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:56.279 years ago he was lauded as this absolute genius who could do no wrong and 355 00:27:56.319 --> 00:27:59.599 that he was going to save environmentalism and he was the future of everything. 356 00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:03.400 Stame with Steve Jeff Bezos and Steve Jobs and all the rest, and now 357 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:07.599 a lot of them have shifted into being. And I kind of wonder if 358 00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:10.920 now we're going to get the myth of the billionaire idiot, you know, 359 00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:12.960 who just doesn't know what they're doing, and that'll be a part of it. 360 00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:21.960 It's not a myth. Most people in Silicon Valley got lucky ones and 361 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:26.119 now think they're geniuses. I'm sorry, it's just it's the way it works. 362 00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:29.759 They're like I did in Facebook. Therefore, everything I say is going 363 00:28:29.799 --> 00:28:36.880 to be correct, and so it's a psychological problem. So let's actually now 364 00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:41.440 go to But but let me let me go somewhere with that. Okay, 365 00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:48.000 So the obvious joke is I missed the days when the obscenely wealthy started new 366 00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:52.799 universities and built libraries all over America to prove their value as opposed to building 367 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:59.079 rockets. I missed those days. I wish we had billionaires going. We 368 00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:04.319 should. We should have more scholarships to the universities as opposed to I need 369 00:29:04.359 --> 00:29:11.480 to colonize Mars and those that would be great. But at the same time, 370 00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:18.039 it's important that I say that all a lot of our myths deal with 371 00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:23.240 the obscenely wealthy and what they can accomplish, as we will see shortly. 372 00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:26.920 Do you think that's a carryover from like, you know, Greek myths are 373 00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:32.160 about the demigods. They are about people who have powers that humans don't have. 374 00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:37.359 Hercules and Pericles and all these people. Is there a thread there between 375 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.799 like that? It's but that today the thing that gives you great power is 376 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:47.160 not being born of a god, but is being born into or acquiring incredible 377 00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:55.119 wealth. Even people who are born into incredible wealth tend to say that they 378 00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:56.960 acquired it. Don't think, well that's true. But but you know my 379 00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:03.480 point? Can we draw that connection? Myths always tell the stories of somebody 380 00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:07.559 who is special in some way, and the culture determines what constitutes that specialness. 381 00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:12.440 So when you were talking about Carnegie, the culture was like they worked 382 00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:18.160 hard and they became rich because they were smart, which is not a bad 383 00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:22.920 mythological structure to have if you want to build a nation. I guess the 384 00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:30.559 myths today are different than that when it comes to wealth. So how we 385 00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:37.759 choose to understand the shift between god. Imagine there's an Elon Muski University, 386 00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:45.640 because you know Carnegie, Mellon and Hopkins and Stanford. I mean, the 387 00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:48.319 guy who found at Stanford was a racist, and if you go to Stanford, 388 00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:52.079 there's still a lot of racists there. All of them are from Ohio 389 00:30:52.200 --> 00:31:02.000 weirdly, but it's still Stanford. So I mean when those universities got founded, 390 00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:07.480 they were almost immediately good universities. If Elon Musk founded a university, 391 00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:14.200 it would be Trump University for Internet dweebs. Yea very different So okay, 392 00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:18.200 so let's talk now about our actual heroes and capes and people like that. 393 00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:27.279 Where does super art? Where does superheroes fit into the conversation about mythology. 394 00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:33.839 I like to tell this story, and I know I've told you this before, 395 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:38.759 Matthew, But so when we study myths, we tend to create stories 396 00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:44.839 that are more general and vague to catellect as many different kinds of myths together 397 00:31:44.920 --> 00:31:48.559 and make them into something we can talk about. We tend to generalize, 398 00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:56.440 all right, So I'm going to give you a general story. And I'm 399 00:31:56.720 --> 00:32:04.240 stealing this general story, but it's a good one. The normal democratic ideals 400 00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:09.000 of a society have failed. The elected members who are supposed to govern the 401 00:32:09.160 --> 00:32:15.039 city or the nation are not doing their jobs effectively. There are people who 402 00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:20.240 are stepping outside of the law and getting away with murder or theft or whatever, 403 00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:24.359 and the police are corrupt and can't deal with it. And the government 404 00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:30.240 is corrupt and is not fixing it, and even the government is now starting 405 00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:36.599 to ruin my life because of their incompetence. So what we need is an 406 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:43.960 in scenely rich person who can ignore the accepted rules of democracy and step outside 407 00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:47.359 of them, and having stepped outside of them, fix the system from the 408 00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:52.680 outside so that it is more just for all of us. And that is 409 00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:57.359 a story. That is a mythological statement. That is a mythological story. 410 00:32:58.119 --> 00:33:02.400 And when I say wizit, you say that I'm not going to call Jared 411 00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:08.079 Kushner Robin Yeah, because clearly it's both Bruce Wayne and it's Donald Trump. 412 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:15.119 Yes, it's both of them. It's it's and iron Man Tony Stark. 413 00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:20.599 Right. We tell stories about people who are special, and people who are 414 00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:23.559 special don't have to follow the rules. That's kind of the general way it 415 00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:30.119 tends to work. There's very few times when those stories end with well, 416 00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:34.960 then they get punished for not following the rules vs. Jesus Rhich is what 417 00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:43.119 makes the story so good. Mostly our mythological heroes don't follow the rules. 418 00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:49.640 But if those mythological heroes are essentially telling you that democracy is bad or democracy 419 00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:53.480 has failed, democracy does not work. That's a bad thing for a society 420 00:33:53.519 --> 00:34:00.720 that's trying to be a democratic republic. Right. So this The most recent, 421 00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:07.559 really important non Marvel group of films were the Nolan Batman films, and 422 00:34:07.760 --> 00:34:14.360 I have issues with Nolan, but they were incredibly important, and they were 423 00:34:14.440 --> 00:34:19.320 incredibly popular, and they did incredibly well. And I would say I would 424 00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:24.239 make the argument that the Nolan Batman films set up the presidency of Donald Trump, 425 00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:31.920 that it created this like mythle It reinforced the mythological story of the billionaire 426 00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:37.000 who steps outside of the rules of democracy can fix the problems for me. 427 00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:42.079 So I don't have to get involved with my local city council, or I 428 00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:45.480 don't have to get involved by running for congress or helping my congressman new stuff. 429 00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:53.199 And that is how myths lead into the real world stuff. They help 430 00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:59.920 us understand what normal people are doing. Yeah, well, the two response 431 00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:01.199 is there. One is just to give another example of that. There was 432 00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:06.000 a book called Waiting for Superman that was a book about trying to reform the 433 00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:08.480 education system, and it was all about this idea that we have to stop 434 00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:14.559 waiting for the outside hero to come and fix it. Now the author winds 435 00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:19.119 up prescribing a bunch of changes to the education system that I don't know much 436 00:35:19.159 --> 00:35:22.199 about, but that most of the educators I know are very Again, so 437 00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:24.119 I'm not endorsing it from that perspective, but it's another version of this, 438 00:35:25.239 --> 00:35:28.840 and I think the Nolan one, I mean, I admit it cuts deep 439 00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:30.960 because it is some of my favorite well the first two or some of my 440 00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:34.440 favorite movies. The third I think is that it basically an attack on occupy 441 00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:37.760 and really the most pro cop thing I've seen in a long time. So 442 00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:40.480 I'm pretty much agreement with you there, But I think that there's an extent 443 00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:44.480 to which and this kind of goes back to the point I was saying about 444 00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:49.480 people arguing of myths. It's that the superhero myths are great, and I've 445 00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:53.559 always said I like the superhero myths that raise questions more than they answer them. 446 00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:58.920 But the problem with that is that people can take them and use them 447 00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:04.199 to interpret almost anything I want. You know, The Punisher is a character 448 00:36:04.280 --> 00:36:09.480 who's very much meant to be a critique of policing, a critique of vigilanteism, 449 00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:14.679 a critique of you know, Frank Castle is a hero, but Frank 450 00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:16.760 Castle is also very much supposed to be a warning, a like this is 451 00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:22.599 what we have to not let people become. And so the fact that uh, 452 00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:24.239 you know, people who are very much in favor of like, no, 453 00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:28.400 let the cops be the cops and do the Let trust us to do 454 00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:30.880 the violence we need to do. You're a stupid civilian. You don't know 455 00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:35.519 what we're doing. Don't give us of any oversight. Trust us are often 456 00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:39.119 like adopting the Punisher into the Blue Lives Matter flag is to me really telling 457 00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:45.800 and you know, and this is like again and one of the folks in 458 00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:50.400 the Superheroes, which is to mean Another great example is Reagan using Born in 459 00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:54.440 the USA, which is a song all about anti Vietnam, using it about 460 00:36:54.440 --> 00:37:00.400 how great America is. Or more recently, someone really upset that the Twisted 461 00:37:00.440 --> 00:37:05.920 Sister has all of a sudden because people the song we are not going to 462 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:09.440 Take It was being made into this like Republican Maga anthem, and they're so 463 00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:14.800 upset that De Snyder of Twisted Sister, who appeared in full makeup in the 464 00:37:14.840 --> 00:37:22.320 eighties every time he performed that somehow he was suddenly against mega principles. I 465 00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:25.119 have to keep reminding myself to focus on the superheroes because there's so much in 466 00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:29.000 the real world that I want to talk about. But yeah, I think 467 00:37:29.079 --> 00:37:31.559 that to me, I think it's part of why I love Civil War so 468 00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:37.559 much, because I think that my civil War. You mean the Marvel Marvel 469 00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:42.599 Civil War. Yeah, no, I am. I do not have children, 470 00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:45.679 but I grill, and I do tell dad jokes, and I have 471 00:37:45.719 --> 00:37:47.519 a dad bod, and I have a whole shelf of books about the history 472 00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:52.679 of the Civil War. So I love that history. But no, I 473 00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:59.400 mean Marvel Civil War is fundamentally an argument about the myth of superheroes, because 474 00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:02.639 the fundamental conflict that the movie then pushes past pretty quickly in order to get 475 00:38:02.679 --> 00:38:08.920 to the fight scenes and the emotional stuff. But fundamentally it's about should superheroes 476 00:38:09.039 --> 00:38:14.239 have some level of accountability and to some extent work within the law, or 477 00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:17.159 should they not? And and is that basically just a struggle over the myth 478 00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:24.960 of what these special people should or shouldn't be able to do. I think 479 00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:35.280 that's the important argument to have. So, Okay, I love Batman, 480 00:38:35.400 --> 00:38:37.679 but I think Batman is horrible. I just think Batman is horrible. I 481 00:38:38.519 --> 00:38:43.199 like Batman. I liked all of the Batman movies in one way or another. 482 00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:47.599 But for me, Batman is a very depressing commentary on American society. 483 00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:52.840 Yes, because of the way I presented the story earlier, because we need 484 00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:59.039 a billionaire to fix it. And sometimes we make him more likable because his 485 00:38:59.199 --> 00:39:04.800 anti Democrats behavior is because he's really sad, as though that's his that's a 486 00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:10.719 reasonable justification for being a fascist. Well you you would have had to appleap 487 00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:16.360 to me. But but but but so Marvel Civil War. I haven't read 488 00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:22.239 the comics, but I've I've heard about them a lot, and you've seen 489 00:39:22.239 --> 00:39:27.480 the movie too much. And yes, I've watched the Captain American movies far 490 00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:35.480 more often than anybody should. Thank you to my wife. The argument about 491 00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:39.960 whether or not your special powers mean your special is the argument to have. 492 00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:46.519 So I think Batman is horrible. But which which superhero do we have the 493 00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:53.440 most movies about Batman? Probably? No, it's actually spider Man. Oh 494 00:39:53.599 --> 00:40:00.280 interesting? Interesting? Yeah, and spider Man. Spider Man is better than 495 00:40:00.280 --> 00:40:06.920 Batman because of the simple with great power comes great responsibility. Batman doesn't feel 496 00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:12.880 that kind of responsibility that spider Man feels that Peter Parker feels or Miles Morales 497 00:40:12.920 --> 00:40:19.199 feels that I have these special powers. I'm not trying to like operate outside 498 00:40:19.239 --> 00:40:23.960 of the system except in this tiniest little sliver that I can without being unjust. 499 00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:28.639 And then I'm going to give the bad guys to the cops, and 500 00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:34.400 we're going to like say, cops are great in this narrative structure. That's 501 00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:39.079 a much more hopeful superhero mythology than the Batman mythology is. Well, so 502 00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:43.119 here I think there's something interesting, and here I'm going to wind up tying 503 00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:45.840 in I think a central question to all this, but also defending Batman a 504 00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:51.039 bit. And I'll start with bigger picture. When we talk about mythology, 505 00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:54.519 often we are talking about stories that are hundreds, if not thousands of years 506 00:40:54.519 --> 00:41:01.039 old, And a lot of biblical scholarship is about going back and saying, 507 00:41:01.079 --> 00:41:05.639 with like Greek mythology scholarship or other things like that, is about trying to 508 00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:10.400 go back and find what are the stories that didn't become the dominant version of 509 00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:14.920 the myth And you know, you learned at the time there were like we 510 00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:19.039 have the four Gospels, but there's something like thirty five gospels that we know 511 00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:22.119 of that were written, all of which were people arguing about what is the 512 00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:27.679 myth of Batman. I'm sorry of Jesus, but I just I just telegraphed 513 00:41:27.800 --> 00:41:30.000 my point. I wonder if part of why it's hard to talk about them 514 00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:34.480 in the same way is that that's the time period where now we've only been 515 00:41:34.480 --> 00:41:37.400 talking about Batman for a hundred years, and we have these different versions of 516 00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:42.000 the myth, because, for example, I would say that while yes, 517 00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:47.159 there's a lot of cheesy fight scenes and jump in Jupiter, Batman, the 518 00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:52.760 Batman sixty six TV show is very much democratic. He's very much working hand 519 00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:59.800 in hand with Commissioner Gordon. The dark night of video games, especially in 520 00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:02.159 comic runs go and I think the movies to some extent, You're right, 521 00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:07.239 go very deep into Batman as the end, as the but the police are 522 00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:10.039 all bad, so I have to do what the police won't do. And 523 00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:13.840 here's the larger mythological question. They're going to get to this because it speaks 524 00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:15.360 to what you're talking about, and I think this is the American mono myth. 525 00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:21.559 We'll get into it a second. As you said, for a person, 526 00:42:21.800 --> 00:42:28.239 there's a fundamental contradiction in a person saying that because the democratic system of 527 00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:31.440 dealing with problems has failed, I am going to step And but what we 528 00:42:31.480 --> 00:42:36.320 mean is that part of the democratic system is that certain groups of people are 529 00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:40.679 given the ability to use force to deal with problems. And you know, 530 00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:45.039 we can talk all about the problems of that itself and is that self democratic 531 00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:46.719 and the like, but that a person who no one has appointed, no 532 00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:52.079 one is elected, no one has chosen Batman is deciding what to happen to 533 00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:58.519 criminals or not. I know that there's a theory and the myth of the 534 00:42:58.639 --> 00:43:01.599 myth of the American the myth of the American superhero is a great illustration of 535 00:43:01.639 --> 00:43:05.239 this, and we start talking about it more. But I want to get 536 00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:09.880 to this point first. That superheroes are fundamentally a contradiction to democratic values. 537 00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:15.000 I think that, and I think often they are. I wonder though, 538 00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:17.840 if also there's another side of the story where the heroes are trying to be 539 00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:22.880 a Cincinnatis figure, where the goal is not to say I will always and 540 00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:30.079 forever live outside of this democratic world, but that things have fallen so much 541 00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:35.639 that I need to step outside them so that I can help get them back 542 00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:39.280 and to me, and we can say that that's completely a myth and it's 543 00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:44.280 not possible. But I would argue that the two best examples of this are 544 00:43:44.840 --> 00:43:50.159 V for Vendetta, where the hero makes a very clear point of saying I 545 00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:53.880 want vengeance against the bad I want vengeance against the bad system, and I 546 00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:59.199 want to inspire other people to build the new system. But I shouldn't be 547 00:43:59.239 --> 00:44:02.000 a part of that, and two things should be separate. But also the 548 00:44:02.360 --> 00:44:07.159 first and second of the Christopher Nolan Batman movies, and much like Last Jedi 549 00:44:07.239 --> 00:44:12.199 into Rise of Skywalker, I think that the Dark Knight is kind of betrayed 550 00:44:12.199 --> 00:44:15.480 by the Dark Knight Rises. But the fundamental thing that Batman is trying to 551 00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:21.239 do in that is to say I was here because the world couldn't when I 552 00:44:21.320 --> 00:44:24.320 started. The world couldn't have a Harvey Dent, and my goal. The 553 00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:29.920 fact that a Harvey Dent could exist is a sign that the world's returning to 554 00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:32.440 a time when I won't be needed anymore. And of course Harvey net is 555 00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:37.400 turned and that whole thing is challenged. But this has been a very long 556 00:44:37.480 --> 00:44:40.960 monologue just to get to I guess this fundamental question of is a superhero fundamentally 557 00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:47.159 always anti democratic or can a superhero be recognizing that the democracy is broken and 558 00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:53.159 stepping outside that in attempt to rebuild it. So what you're talking about is 559 00:44:54.280 --> 00:45:01.000 is the superhero temporary? Yeah? Okay, first off, I'm wondering if 560 00:45:01.039 --> 00:45:07.320 we should explain the Cincinnatis story. Sure, I'll go ahead. So it 561 00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:12.639 is a myth in Roman story that I think there's it's not a myth, 562 00:45:12.760 --> 00:45:17.320 he existed, Okay, they actually historical knowledge. Okay, it very much 563 00:45:17.320 --> 00:45:22.320 became I think mythological as the way were told again and again, but certainly 564 00:45:22.679 --> 00:45:27.159 based in true fact. Where basically, at a time in Rome's history when 565 00:45:27.159 --> 00:45:32.519 it didn't have a strong executive central government focused on one person because it wanted, 566 00:45:32.679 --> 00:45:36.480 you know it, Rome started, I think a lot of us forget 567 00:45:36.519 --> 00:45:39.000 as a revolution against kings. That's why even when a the emperor, they 568 00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:44.840 were never kings, and so you had a kind of diffused system of power. 569 00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:47.599 But then there were the literal enemies at the gates, and so the 570 00:45:47.679 --> 00:45:52.159 people all decided to take one of their one of the high ranking members, 571 00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:55.920 this guy named Cincinnatis, and to make him a dictator for the purpose of 572 00:45:57.079 --> 00:46:01.360 uniting the people during this difficult time of war there. And the important part 573 00:46:01.400 --> 00:46:06.320 of the myth is that once he was no longer needed, he stepped down, 574 00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:12.280 he handed back that power and it returned to a non dictatorship. Yes, 575 00:46:12.920 --> 00:46:17.880 I mean he was dictator twice, and he the first time he gave 576 00:46:17.960 --> 00:46:22.199 up power, so they run to him the second time. This is early 577 00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:28.000 in the Roman Republic, right when it was a republic, before the republic 578 00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:30.960 failed and it became the empire, though it never called itself an empire ever, 579 00:46:31.079 --> 00:46:42.079 right and so like he's like five hundred BC probably so when Rome was 580 00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:46.639 still like making sure it controlled the Italian peninsula, and part of what Rome 581 00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:54.840 had to deal with was a warrior or tribal society called the Sabines cleue in 582 00:46:54.920 --> 00:47:02.480 rebels right here, and and they were losing. They would have the way 583 00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:07.760 their government worked as they'd have the Senate, and the Senate would have two 584 00:47:07.840 --> 00:47:10.360 leaders in it, each that served a one year term. And both of 585 00:47:10.400 --> 00:47:15.920 the leaders in the Senate were failing. They had a former senator named Cincinnatis 586 00:47:15.159 --> 00:47:17.719 who was just a farmer, were retired farmer, and they went to him 587 00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:21.920 and they said, we need you to be the dictator an actual title. 588 00:47:22.599 --> 00:47:28.599 It's not like the word we use generally. It was a title to make 589 00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:35.119 sure Rome doesn't fall. And so he was the dictator of Rome for I 590 00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:39.320 think forty days, something like barely a month. And he defeats the Sabines 591 00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:43.719 and he says, I did it, and I'm going home, and he 592 00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:49.159 goes home, and that that is the Cincinnatis story, which is, by 593 00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:52.679 the way, the way we started to talk about George Washington in the early 594 00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:58.159 Republic. He was very much Cincinnatis figure. They literally and it's a great 595 00:47:58.199 --> 00:48:00.519 story. They literally said he went back to his farm after the war and 596 00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:05.639 then they called him to the president, calling a plantation owner of farmer the 597 00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:07.760 man never held a till in his life, or you know how the gardening 598 00:48:07.760 --> 00:48:12.239 could whatever. But yeah, exactly, so sorry interrupted, but yeah, 599 00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:16.880 you needed to throw that in. So this really really old story of Cincinnatis 600 00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:23.679 became a way for early Americans to talk about their now mythological figure of George 601 00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:29.280 Washington, so that it made sense. And so the Cincinnatis thing works. 602 00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:34.559 But Cincinnatis got one sequel. He was dictator twice. He got one sequel 603 00:48:34.599 --> 00:48:40.000 and then he went home. So you know, how many Batman movies are 604 00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:46.960 there. We can't have Batman as Lucius Cincinnatis forever because he never seems to 605 00:48:47.199 --> 00:48:52.440 fricking go home and take the armor off and stop being Batman, which is 606 00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:55.800 the whole point. So I am, I'm afraid I have to reject your 607 00:48:55.840 --> 00:49:02.360 defensive Batman because as long as we keep making new Batman movies, we have 608 00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:07.079 a problem what a society, because we keep because the story we want, 609 00:49:07.239 --> 00:49:09.920 the story we want is failed democracy that it's an outsider to fix it, 610 00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:15.719 and we keep wanting the story over and over again, which is which is 611 00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:20.320 the symptom that we have to be very wary of. Right well, And 612 00:49:20.360 --> 00:49:25.400 I guess to be clear, my point wasn't that therefore the entire Batman mythos 613 00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:29.480 is better than you're making it out to be. It's that, I think, 614 00:49:29.559 --> 00:49:31.119 kind of going to my original point, is that we are at a 615 00:49:31.159 --> 00:49:37.880 point in time where many different people are interpreting the Batman mythos in different ways, 616 00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:40.599 and that I think what Christopher Nolan did in that second movie, which 617 00:49:40.599 --> 00:49:44.079 has been done a couple of times, there's some of it in Batman the 618 00:49:44.079 --> 00:49:47.760 animated series, and I think some of it also in the new Batman movie 619 00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:52.800 that I really loved the with Robert Pattinson. They were trying to offer a 620 00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:58.559 different alternative of what if this is a Batman who was actively working to end 621 00:49:58.639 --> 00:50:02.519 the time that he's needed And I think you know, even those like decided 622 00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:06.599 they needed another movie, and so of course it didn't stick to that. 623 00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:10.119 But that's my only point is that the Batman mythos is one that is being 624 00:50:10.199 --> 00:50:13.920 argued about, and that I think you're right, the dominant part of the 625 00:50:13.960 --> 00:50:16.840 story is the much more anti democratic version, but that I think that there 626 00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:22.400 are some some versions of the story that do challenge that a bit. I 627 00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:29.320 hope you're right. Yeah, So the purpose of a surgeon is to do 628 00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:34.320 their work so that you don't need a surgeon anymore. R right, If 629 00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:42.199 you continually need a surgeon, there you're circling the drain. There's a problem. 630 00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:47.440 Batman can't be a surgeon for democracy, right, and none of the 631 00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:55.960 superheroes can clue in the uber mentioned, none of the superheroes can be the 632 00:50:57.039 --> 00:51:04.280 saviors of democracy, and I think that's a problem, that the fact that 633 00:51:04.280 --> 00:51:08.239 we like superhero so much is a problem. Well, but let me push 634 00:51:08.320 --> 00:51:13.039 back there somewhat with kind of what I'm saying before, isn't there a myth 635 00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:15.800 of democracy that's part of the story you're telling, because, for example, 636 00:51:15.880 --> 00:51:20.039 if the idea is that, like, you know, what's the as I 637 00:51:20.079 --> 00:51:22.800 was saying, like, the problem with Batman is that he doesn't have the 638 00:51:22.840 --> 00:51:29.360 government given legitimate use of violence. It's not like the governmental The people who 639 00:51:29.360 --> 00:51:34.280 do have the governmental use of violence that that Batman is challenging do great with 640 00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:36.519 that. You know, I think we would both agree that, like the 641 00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:39.760 American policing system has all sorts of problems. There aren't just things that a 642 00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:43.039 surgeon can fix. They're things that need to be torn out at the root. 643 00:51:43.559 --> 00:51:46.920 And so so I definitely hear what you're saying, but I do wonder 644 00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:52.599 if that there's a danger there also of saying I guess to me that the 645 00:51:52.119 --> 00:51:55.559 superheroes that I'm most fond of are the ones that hold up the mirror, 646 00:51:57.039 --> 00:52:02.480 and Batman, in my favorite version of him, isn't trying to say I 647 00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:07.159 can be the one to save democracy. As you said, it's it's and 648 00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:08.320 I think the from Mandetta is the perfect endeavor of this, but I think 649 00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:13.519 other heroes are as well. Sometimes Batman, it's the I'm going to remind 650 00:52:13.639 --> 00:52:19.119 people that they can save democracy. I'm going to remind people that this is 651 00:52:19.159 --> 00:52:27.920 not the democracy right now that they think it is. There's the two interpretations, 652 00:52:28.039 --> 00:52:30.760 right, the system is broken and we have to fix it, and 653 00:52:30.880 --> 00:52:35.519 the other side is the system was working exactly as intended and we have to 654 00:52:35.559 --> 00:52:38.519 get rid of it right right. The best meme of that I've seen recently 655 00:52:38.639 --> 00:52:47.159 was Barbie and Oppenheimer say more about that. Yeah, but is the system 656 00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:52.440 broken and fixable or is the system working correctly and unjust? That is the 657 00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:57.239 question, right? And and do you think that there's pot like that there 658 00:52:57.239 --> 00:53:00.800 are some superheroes who are more on the second side, because I definitely think 659 00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:08.039 that some of them are. Yes, I'll go back to Spider Man. 660 00:53:08.119 --> 00:53:16.440 But probably the easy answer is Captain America. In the Civil War movie, 661 00:53:16.760 --> 00:53:22.960 he's on the other side than he is in the Civil War comic. But 662 00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:29.639 but Captain America is very much the America part in the mythological sense, not 663 00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:37.239 in the shingoistic sense. And it's and Chris Evans did such a good job 664 00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:45.159 that Captain America does a really great version of the system can be fixed I 665 00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:49.679 will help you fix it, but I will not take it over, which 666 00:53:49.719 --> 00:53:52.920 is not a thing that iron Man would ever really do. Iron Man would 667 00:53:52.920 --> 00:53:58.599 be like, I don't even care about the system. I don't. Yeah. 668 00:53:58.880 --> 00:54:01.079 The fact that Chris Evans Steve Rodgers is very quick to a bay Nic 669 00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:07.400 fury in a way that Tony is not. Yeah, Although, so the 670 00:54:07.519 --> 00:54:14.639 question is how do we feel about hierarchical authority? Right? Well, and 671 00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:19.679 Captain America's case, I actually feel like you have three different perspectives that he 672 00:54:19.719 --> 00:54:24.119 goes through. He starts out as the system is just fine, and I'm 673 00:54:24.199 --> 00:54:29.480 just kind of a supercop. I am a part of the democratic system. 674 00:54:29.519 --> 00:54:32.159 I've been created by the democratic system, and the democratic system gets to give 675 00:54:32.199 --> 00:54:37.480 me orders and tell me what I should do. He becomes there's a problem 676 00:54:37.519 --> 00:54:40.559 in the democratic system. I have to cut it out. I have to 677 00:54:40.679 --> 00:54:45.199 change it, and I have to remind people to get back to the democratic 678 00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:49.920 system. And I to me, he goes from the supercop to the surgeon, 679 00:54:50.199 --> 00:54:53.679 to the wrecking ball to the hydra has penetrated all levels of this and 680 00:54:53.679 --> 00:54:59.480 it does have to just be completely torn down. I think that's a good 681 00:54:59.480 --> 00:55:06.960 intropt. I just suddenly was reminded of. In the I guess the late 682 00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:13.199 forties through the fifties, Superman a lot talked about racism being bad, right. 683 00:55:14.239 --> 00:55:17.719 I mean, none of the people who love Superman were okay with that. 684 00:55:20.039 --> 00:55:23.480 And you know, the first the Christopher Reeve Superman, the first two 685 00:55:23.559 --> 00:55:30.599 Christopher Reeve Superman movies features a scene in one of them where he literally carries 686 00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:34.480 an American flag back to the White House and puts it back on top and 687 00:55:34.599 --> 00:55:40.400 says he's here to help. And that's a much better superhero than I'm really 688 00:55:40.480 --> 00:55:45.719 sad and depressed and I have a gravelly voice. Yeah. And it's funny 689 00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:53.559 because I think from the political science standpoint, Superman is the victor there. 690 00:55:54.039 --> 00:55:59.039 From the interesting story point, I find Superman incredibly boring. You know, 691 00:55:59.159 --> 00:56:01.519 Jessica Plumber keep me I shouldn't, but but I get it. I think 692 00:56:01.559 --> 00:56:07.480 that there are they're definitely dangers in it kind of goes I guess. The 693 00:56:07.519 --> 00:56:10.920 only thing that I would push back down is there as well, is I 694 00:56:10.960 --> 00:56:16.679 think there's a danger in saying because of how people interpret a story that that 695 00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:21.360 is the defining way we understand the story. And I'll one of my favorite 696 00:56:21.360 --> 00:56:25.079 examples of an American myth is you know, John Brown. John Brown is 697 00:56:25.719 --> 00:56:30.440 a person who the myth has dramatically changed in the last seventy five years or 698 00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:32.960 so, or one hundred and fifty years. You know, at first he 699 00:56:34.039 --> 00:56:39.360 was seen as like the epitome of activism gone wrong, of activism becoming terrorism 700 00:56:39.360 --> 00:56:44.360 and the like. And now he's looked to as this incredible freedom fighter and 701 00:56:44.599 --> 00:56:47.880 incredible a superhero I think in some ways because literally he's doing all the things 702 00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:52.960 you're talking about. He's going the law is saying that slavery is legal. 703 00:56:52.199 --> 00:56:57.079 He knows that that is fundamentally wrong. He's going outside of the law and 704 00:56:57.280 --> 00:57:01.239 using violence to try and end slavery. And one of the groups that looks 705 00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:07.760 to him as they're founding superhero because in their mind he's fighting to offend the 706 00:57:07.840 --> 00:57:13.280 rights of people that the rest of the world doesn't think are people is the 707 00:57:13.320 --> 00:57:17.719 hardcore bomb abortion clinics. People like That's they claim him as their founding father 708 00:57:17.840 --> 00:57:22.400 because they think that's the term of the myth. And again, like the 709 00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:24.960 Punisher and the Cops and so I just I definitely hear where you are going, 710 00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:29.199 and we're kind of dancing around the myth American superheroes. We should get 711 00:57:29.199 --> 00:57:31.199 into that directly. But that's my pushback I think that I had with a 712 00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:35.840 lot of the book, but also with what you're saying, is that I 713 00:57:35.880 --> 00:57:40.119 think a world in which superheroes become permanent is very problematic. You're completely right, 714 00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:49.719 and here I think there's a fundamental paradox in superhero media in that it's 715 00:57:49.840 --> 00:57:53.719 very hard to tell a story about someone who stops being the character when there 716 00:57:53.719 --> 00:57:58.320 are billions of dollars to be made by continuing to make the character again and 717 00:57:58.360 --> 00:58:01.760 again and again. I just want to have some defense of the fact that 718 00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:06.679 I do think there are a lot of superheroes who, within their own stories 719 00:58:07.159 --> 00:58:09.840 are trying hard to either be the Surgeon or the Wrecking Ball but not. 720 00:58:10.079 --> 00:58:14.480 But they understand that a world in which is superhero needed shouldn't be the eternal. 721 00:58:15.800 --> 00:58:17.360 But it's kind of blayed by the fact that we then keep telling the 722 00:58:17.400 --> 00:58:27.920 story again and again and again. Yes, so let's let's be scholarly. 723 00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:37.119 I have quotes. So we've been dancing around the fact that permanent superheroes is 724 00:58:37.159 --> 00:58:44.400 a problem. Recent movie grosses look like it's not as much of a problem 725 00:58:44.440 --> 00:58:49.960 as we thought, and So there's this thing called the American mono myth which 726 00:58:50.039 --> 00:58:53.719 was originally written in a book in the nineteen seventies by a philosopher and a 727 00:58:53.800 --> 00:59:02.440 theologian named Robert Jewett the theologian and John Shelton Lawrence the philosopher. And I 728 00:59:02.480 --> 00:59:07.360 know John Shelton Lawrence. I did a book with him, so I'm going 729 00:59:07.400 --> 00:59:13.000 to be biased. I think he's a great guy. What they were interested 730 00:59:13.039 --> 00:59:16.840 in doing was showing how America had taken regular mythology and made it problematic, 731 00:59:19.760 --> 00:59:22.719 and at the time, or right at the moment and when Star Wars is 732 00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:27.920 coming out at the time, regular mythology was looked at as the Joseph Campbell 733 00:59:27.960 --> 00:59:32.000 mythology. What Joseph Campbell called the mono myth and I'm just going to read 734 00:59:32.039 --> 00:59:37.840 you his description of what Joseph Campbell said is this is the basic myth of 735 00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:43.800 all humanity, which is this a hero ventures ventures forth from the world of 736 00:59:44.079 --> 00:59:49.920 common day into a region of supernatural wonder. Fabulous forces are there encountered in 737 00:59:49.960 --> 00:59:54.320 a divisive victory is one The hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the 738 00:59:54.360 --> 01:00:00.239 power to bestow boons on his fellow man that's Joseph Campbell in nineteen forties, 739 01:00:01.760 --> 01:00:09.639 and that is basically every Western hero myth. He was not nearly as universal 740 01:00:09.679 --> 01:00:14.239 as he hoped he was, but let's not let's not worry about that right 741 01:00:14.239 --> 01:00:19.840 now. That is that is a way of describing a mythological structure that captures 742 01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:28.280 a lot of different myth from from Jesus to oh, shoot, who's the 743 01:00:28.280 --> 01:00:31.920 guy who gave us fire? Prometheus? But he also he Prometheus. He 744 01:00:32.000 --> 01:00:36.360 pulls in a lot of Hindu myths, although I know a lot of Hindu 745 01:00:36.400 --> 01:00:42.519 scholars have had great problems with how he interprets those myths. And yes, 746 01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:49.159 and so, uh, we're recording this because we don't want to talk about 747 01:00:49.880 --> 01:00:53.840 Star Wars during the strike. Joseph Campbell has a series of books after his 748 01:00:53.880 --> 01:01:00.800 most famous book called The Masks of God, which is a way saying that 749 01:01:00.320 --> 01:01:04.519 all of our myths are really about the same thing when it comes right down 750 01:01:04.559 --> 01:01:07.360 to it. And every time I see the intro to Star Wars now where 751 01:01:07.360 --> 01:01:12.519 they go through the masks, and those masks change depending on the show. 752 01:01:12.920 --> 01:01:16.199 I think of the Masks of God, I think it's just beautifully done for 753 01:01:16.280 --> 01:01:28.000 me personally, And so the question for Campbell was do we have universal myths? 754 01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:30.360 And his answer was, yes, we do. But he had the 755 01:01:30.400 --> 01:01:35.840 same problem that all myth scholars have. Every time a myth scholar defines myth, 756 01:01:36.119 --> 01:01:37.920 there's a myth that gets left out because of the way they defined myth. 757 01:01:38.280 --> 01:01:44.000 It's a virtually an impossible thing to define. So along come Jewett and 758 01:01:44.159 --> 01:01:50.000 Lawrence in the seventies and they propose something they called the American mono myth. 759 01:01:50.400 --> 01:01:52.840 And I'm going to read their description, and as I'm reading it, I 760 01:01:52.880 --> 01:02:00.440 hope the listeners will think of Batman and iron Man. And I don't know, 761 01:02:00.559 --> 01:02:06.519 has anybody seems Shane? Does anybody watch Western old Westerns anymore? John 762 01:02:06.519 --> 01:02:08.760 Wayne the Cowboy is very much an American math yet just as much as Superman 763 01:02:08.840 --> 01:02:14.719 today. Yes, the riding off into the sunset is the important part there. 764 01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:20.480 So here's their definition. A community in a harmonious paradise is threatened by 765 01:02:20.599 --> 01:02:27.239 evil. Normal institutions fail to contend with this threat. A selfless superhero emerges 766 01:02:27.400 --> 01:02:31.760 to renounce temptations and carry out the redemptive task. Aided by Fate, his 767 01:02:31.880 --> 01:02:38.519 device. Decisive victory restores the community to its paradisical condition. The superhero then 768 01:02:38.599 --> 01:02:45.000 recedes into obscurity. The recedes into rescurity is a really important part that sequels 769 01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:53.199 don't allow. And that is a really general myth structure for Americans, from 770 01:02:53.239 --> 01:03:02.599 our westerns to our superhero movies. It works really, really well. Sometimes 771 01:03:02.639 --> 01:03:07.920 the you know, into o security is death though, and that is part 772 01:03:07.960 --> 01:03:15.280 of our myth and for Americans as well. I'm always reminded when I read 773 01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:24.119 this of the death of Abraham Lincoln. Just Abraham Lincoln was probably the best 774 01:03:24.159 --> 01:03:29.760 president we ever had because he saved the Union. Though how we define best 775 01:03:29.880 --> 01:03:36.199 is a silly thing, but it's important to remember how perfectly his death aligned 776 01:03:36.679 --> 01:03:39.840 with what it needed to align with so that he could become who he became 777 01:03:40.159 --> 01:03:46.320 after death. So he was shot in Ford's Theater on Good Friday, yep, 778 01:03:49.119 --> 01:03:52.960 and everybody found out about his death because of the way news worked in 779 01:03:53.159 --> 01:03:59.079 eighteen sixty five, the vast majority of Americans found out about that death in 780 01:03:59.280 --> 01:04:04.639 church on Easter Sunday. Yeah, and you are not ever Ever, then 781 01:04:04.719 --> 01:04:09.400 I have a mythological structure works so perfectly. Again, if I wrote that 782 01:04:09.440 --> 01:04:14.000 as Alley would script, people would go it's unbelievable, right, but it's 783 01:04:14.199 --> 01:04:18.079 perfect. So what we, what we as Americans tend to do is look 784 01:04:18.119 --> 01:04:24.360 at at that exact thing. But the whole how Lincoln wins the war is 785 01:04:24.400 --> 01:04:30.559 the American mono myth. He totally does things that are illegal for presidents to 786 01:04:30.599 --> 01:04:33.159 do. Yeah, I mean because he he has to do them or or 787 01:04:33.239 --> 01:04:38.039 else. To me, he's the Cincinnatis, he's. Yes. Part of 788 01:04:38.039 --> 01:04:41.920 why I argue sometimes with the best president is because he he's the closest I 789 01:04:41.920 --> 01:04:45.159 think America has had to a dictator, and for a very noble just cause. 790 01:04:45.480 --> 01:04:48.599 But but he suspends avieas corpus. He has all come to other uh, 791 01:04:48.679 --> 01:04:53.239 you know, he's the one who says, I'm going to step outside 792 01:04:53.280 --> 01:04:56.519 the bonds of power that I've been given in order to save the whole thing. 793 01:04:57.559 --> 01:05:00.599 Yep. I also think interesting is that because I saw a study once 794 01:05:00.639 --> 01:05:04.960 of this is a pole like twenty thirty years ago. But it was they 795 01:05:05.079 --> 01:05:09.239 asked, you know, a whole bunch of people from all across the US, 796 01:05:09.639 --> 01:05:14.920 when did Lincoln free the slaves? And the most widely held belief is 797 01:05:14.960 --> 01:05:17.880 that he either had done it or announced he would do it when he became 798 01:05:17.920 --> 01:05:21.880 president, and that that's why the South seceded, and that the set they 799 01:05:21.880 --> 01:05:25.519 did, they knew that he was more anti slavery than they are. The 800 01:05:25.519 --> 01:05:29.320 president should come along since then, But that the fact that Lincoln openly said 801 01:05:29.360 --> 01:05:30.800 he was willing to not free the slaves it could save the Union, and 802 01:05:30.840 --> 01:05:35.119 that he only did so much later into the war is totally forgotten. And 803 01:05:35.239 --> 01:05:41.679 that's that's again, like the facts aren't fitting into the myth itself. Let's 804 01:05:41.719 --> 01:05:48.559 also remember what the Emancipation Proclamation actually proclaimed, which was, henceforth, all 805 01:05:48.599 --> 01:05:53.519 of the slaves in areas we do not control are free, right, I 806 01:05:53.519 --> 01:05:57.000 mean, it was very specific. It would be like me going all the 807 01:05:57.079 --> 01:06:00.199 robots of Mars are free, like I have any control over Mars and the 808 01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:09.199 robots there. Mars is a planet populated holy by robots, so they should 809 01:06:09.199 --> 01:06:17.679 be free. And the Emancipation Proclamation never freed any slaves because it only existed 810 01:06:17.800 --> 01:06:24.679 as a propaganda tool during war. I'm freeing all of the slaves in places 811 01:06:24.679 --> 01:06:30.280 where I do not have control right now is not freeing the slaves. It's 812 01:06:30.320 --> 01:06:35.239 just not now. Juneteenth is a national holiday and I think it's just awesome. 813 01:06:35.679 --> 01:06:41.840 But we, yeah, we ascribe too much to Lincoln that he that 814 01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:45.679 he didn't do. But that's how myth works. We always ascribe the really 815 01:06:45.719 --> 01:06:50.840 important things to some mythological figure. Right. So in the in the English 816 01:06:50.960 --> 01:06:58.079 language, in the English language, the most books in English written by a 817 01:06:58.119 --> 01:07:02.159 single about a single person. The winner is Jesus. Number two is Abraham 818 01:07:02.239 --> 01:07:10.639 Lincoln. That's hilarious and I think that I think that's significant one. So 819 01:07:10.719 --> 01:07:14.199 pulling that back to the mono myth idea, so, where do superheroes fit 820 01:07:14.239 --> 01:07:15.519 in this idea of the monomith or why shoul let me just pull it back 821 01:07:15.519 --> 01:07:18.320 in further, So what is their take on the monomoth? Because it clearly 822 01:07:18.320 --> 01:07:21.400 sounds like I've read the book too, but I want to let you continue. 823 01:07:21.760 --> 01:07:27.480 What's the problem with the mono myth? Well, I can just like 824 01:07:29.039 --> 01:07:34.039 normal institutions fail to contend with this threat. Is the problem with the American 825 01:07:34.039 --> 01:07:43.559 mono myth. It starts with believing that democracy is built to fail. To 826 01:07:43.639 --> 01:07:46.199 a certain extent, democracy is built to fail. That's why it's so good, 827 01:07:46.519 --> 01:07:55.760 right, And this notion, this notion of we need an outsider hero 828 01:07:56.639 --> 01:08:00.880 who then will ride off into the sunset one way or another, is a 829 01:08:01.400 --> 01:08:06.119 narrative structure that we as Americans have worked through all of the stuff we think 830 01:08:06.199 --> 01:08:14.079 is important. We interpret a huge section of American Christians interpret the Bible in 831 01:08:14.159 --> 01:08:17.840 that way because there are some really great stories to talk about that, if 832 01:08:17.880 --> 01:08:24.000 you really think about them, are about a singular hero fixing the broken system 833 01:08:24.039 --> 01:08:30.000 from the outside, which is not which is not an emphasis that a Christian 834 01:08:30.039 --> 01:08:36.960 in England would use. It's just not so. This way of thinking of 835 01:08:38.039 --> 01:08:44.640 heroism has changed the way we interpret our politics, and our Bible, and 836 01:08:45.119 --> 01:08:50.520 our popular culture and what constitutes a good story on television or at the movie 837 01:08:50.560 --> 01:08:57.000 theater, and it colors the way we interpret everything, which is why it's 838 01:08:57.039 --> 01:08:59.960 a myth, which is why it's a mythological structure that we have to contin 839 01:09:00.039 --> 01:09:02.199 and listen think about. Certainly, I think one of the best examples that 840 01:09:02.279 --> 01:09:06.199 I read eighty five percent of the book. I did not get a chance 841 01:09:06.199 --> 01:09:09.720 to finish it. But I don't think that they talk about this in the 842 01:09:09.720 --> 01:09:14.720 book. But shameless plug here if you go way back into the archives of 843 01:09:14.800 --> 01:09:16.640 Star Wars Universe podcast, and I'll probably actually just link it in the in 844 01:09:16.680 --> 01:09:21.439 the show notes. I did a podcast with Becky Allen where we talked about 845 01:09:21.479 --> 01:09:25.359 a different myth, but one that I think is very wrapped up in the 846 01:09:25.439 --> 01:09:29.640 mono myth, which is the one great man of history idea. And you 847 01:09:29.680 --> 01:09:34.840 know that and that part of the thing is that I think they're ascribing one 848 01:09:35.000 --> 01:09:41.319 reason to a sociological event is very difficult. But I think one of the 849 01:09:41.359 --> 01:09:45.520 reasons why things like labor unions and other man, you know, people look 850 01:09:45.560 --> 01:09:48.720 at France and are like, why can't we do mass organizing on that scale? 851 01:09:48.720 --> 01:09:51.880 Why can't we have national strikes? And one of the things that Becky 852 01:09:51.960 --> 01:09:55.640 pointed out that I've since done more scholarship on and a lot of people have 853 01:09:55.720 --> 01:09:59.159 talked about, is that it is the problem with this American mono myth is 854 01:09:59.199 --> 01:10:02.119 that when you always are waiting for Superman, when you're waiting for that one 855 01:10:02.199 --> 01:10:06.279 great person to come along, it's a lot harder to get people to say, 856 01:10:06.279 --> 01:10:09.399 no, we are all Superman, we should all join the union, 857 01:10:09.439 --> 01:10:14.239 we should all go out and protester, or whatever it is. And I 858 01:10:14.319 --> 01:10:15.960 they know a quite good they don't use that quite that language, but I 859 01:10:15.960 --> 01:10:19.560 think that's a point that is definitely implied through a lot of this book that 860 01:10:19.560 --> 01:10:26.239 are really appreciative yes, but and I don't even have to say anything after 861 01:10:26.279 --> 01:10:29.079 the blood. I don't think. No, I've no idea what direction you're 862 01:10:29.079 --> 01:10:32.159 going, so please we do. So there's this notion in American culture, 863 01:10:33.039 --> 01:10:40.680 much bigger than the American modern myth, that that sees the way in which 864 01:10:41.560 --> 01:10:45.439 our progress works is through violence. And if there's if there's a thing that 865 01:10:45.479 --> 01:10:55.720 Americans share, truly share with Marxists in a broad sense, it's even the 866 01:10:55.800 --> 01:11:01.039 anti Marxist. Americans believe that history is progress. Right, And I'm an 867 01:11:01.079 --> 01:11:05.159 American. I have our time not thinking history is progress because I really like 868 01:11:05.279 --> 01:11:09.760 the new insulin on on. I see progress all the time, right, 869 01:11:10.880 --> 01:11:17.479 And Americans are are unique, right, maybe not unique, are relatively unique? 870 01:11:19.000 --> 01:11:23.600 Just a horrible phrase. And that they think, they think that the 871 01:11:23.680 --> 01:11:30.840 progress comes through violence a whole. There's a trilogy of historical works that each 872 01:11:30.880 --> 01:11:35.359 one is like eighteen hundred pages, the first one of which is called Regeneration 873 01:11:35.439 --> 01:11:42.159 through Violence, which suggests that all the time we need to be good and 874 01:11:42.600 --> 01:11:48.119 and a better group always starts with violence. Violence is the thing that makes 875 01:11:48.199 --> 01:11:56.000 us new, as as a war scholar once said, war is the thing 876 01:11:56.079 --> 01:12:00.039 that gives us meaning. Violence is the thing that makes America understand itself, 877 01:12:00.920 --> 01:12:06.920 and if for the regeneration through violence was the frontier line. As we moved 878 01:12:06.960 --> 01:12:13.720 into the frontier, we were violent and civilizing and violent and civilizing it as 879 01:12:13.760 --> 01:12:17.239 we went along. And that is an integral part to the way in which 880 01:12:17.279 --> 01:12:24.039 Americans think of their progress. Progress is not something that happens in committee meetings. 881 01:12:25.239 --> 01:12:30.560 Progress is something that happens on the streets with Molotov cocktails, or on 882 01:12:31.199 --> 01:12:41.079 breeds and bunker hill or wherever progress requires violence. Not that progress doesn't sometimes, 883 01:12:41.159 --> 01:12:45.840 but for Americans, progress always seems to That's that's the mythological underpinning to 884 01:12:46.039 --> 01:12:50.039 be worried about. Well. And so here, I love that you're saying 885 01:12:50.119 --> 01:12:55.560 what you're saying at because this I you and I are not in the same 886 01:12:55.560 --> 01:12:58.600 place with that. And I think this is my fundamental disagreement with the book. 887 01:12:59.439 --> 01:13:00.880 And I I'm trying to I don't just want to give a ten minute 888 01:13:00.880 --> 01:13:02.720 monologue about that, So I'm trying to think of how to break this down 889 01:13:02.720 --> 01:13:06.079 in a couple of different plet parts. But the first thing I'll say is, 890 01:13:06.079 --> 01:13:09.479 first of all, I want to be clear that those mass movements that 891 01:13:09.520 --> 01:13:12.720 I was talking about are by no definition, you know, always violent, 892 01:13:12.840 --> 01:13:17.159 and I think that that there's a myth that is like the myth of blm, 893 01:13:17.199 --> 01:13:19.920 you know, riots and all sorts of stuff is a very important myth 894 01:13:19.960 --> 01:13:24.800 to challenge saying with the idea like and you know, one hundred years ago 895 01:13:24.840 --> 01:13:29.000 they would always talk about like unions are terrible because union rallies always turn violent 896 01:13:29.079 --> 01:13:33.119 and it's no the Pinkerton's are attacking and it turns into self defense. But 897 01:13:33.239 --> 01:13:34.920 I know that's where you were going. But I just want to kind of 898 01:13:34.920 --> 01:13:41.079 clarify that, I think though to me, so let me back up and 899 01:13:41.119 --> 01:13:44.199 just trying to talk about the book in general. There's so much I love 900 01:13:44.199 --> 01:13:46.000 about the book, and I think it's it is speaking to so much truth 901 01:13:46.119 --> 01:13:50.319 about a very true story in America, and the American monom myth is very 902 01:13:50.399 --> 01:13:55.199 very real. And certainly I didn't get a chance to jump in with this 903 01:13:55.239 --> 01:13:58.640 about Campbell, but I think one of the problems that I see with Campbell 904 01:13:59.279 --> 01:14:03.159 is that while he has done some scholarship as an outsider to mythologies that are 905 01:14:03.199 --> 01:14:08.079 not from the culture he's a part of, he is doing the very western 906 01:14:08.119 --> 01:14:13.479 academic thing of taking his view and applying it to everybody, and I know 907 01:14:13.520 --> 01:14:15.520 that certainly to me, some of the best critiques of Campbell have come from 908 01:14:15.560 --> 01:14:20.600 people from very different cultures, saying, you are fundamentally misunderstanding our myth because 909 01:14:20.600 --> 01:14:24.800 you're seeing it through your Western lens. And so I really love how they 910 01:14:24.880 --> 01:14:29.159 narrow it down to the American Mama myth and the stuff about the individual, 911 01:14:29.239 --> 01:14:31.399 the stuff about the person who arise and fade from history and all of that. 912 01:14:32.720 --> 01:14:39.239 I think though that, and I am a person who bottomed out with 913 01:14:39.239 --> 01:14:43.800 a master's degree in a professional degree, I do not have the academic rigor 914 01:14:43.840 --> 01:14:46.319 that given you or the professors who wrote this book have, so I want 915 01:14:46.319 --> 01:14:50.079 to be very aware of that. For me, though, I think there's 916 01:14:50.119 --> 01:14:55.800 another myth that I grew up with that is now being challenged, which is 917 01:14:55.800 --> 01:15:00.199 the myth of nonviolence, which is the Martin Luther King is the embodiment of 918 01:15:00.239 --> 01:15:05.399 all that is good and pure of modern American progress, and Malcolm X is 919 01:15:05.439 --> 01:15:10.119 the example of everything that is wrong and bad, and that if minority groups 920 01:15:10.199 --> 01:15:13.000 just and again I'm very clear, this is not actually Martin Luther King. 921 01:15:13.000 --> 01:15:16.760 This is the myth of him that if minority groups just ask nicely for their 922 01:15:16.840 --> 01:15:21.199 rights and you know, let people be aware of their suffering, but then 923 01:15:21.479 --> 01:15:27.880 suffer for the viewing of everybody else. That eventually Americans will find it in 924 01:15:27.920 --> 01:15:30.840 their heart and will do the right thing. And I don't think either you 925 01:15:30.880 --> 01:15:33.319 are of the people who wrote this book are buying into that at all. 926 01:15:34.359 --> 01:15:41.000 But I do think that as a part of that, the blurring that happened 927 01:15:41.159 --> 01:15:46.039 is the difference between aggressive violence and self defense and that people often would look 928 01:15:46.039 --> 01:15:49.359 at like the Malcolm X's of the world as as you know, they're so 929 01:15:49.399 --> 01:15:55.000 aggressive and not understand what he was talking about was violence is being done to 930 01:15:55.039 --> 01:15:59.039 my community constantly. I'm just advocating that we don't turn the other cheek, 931 01:15:59.640 --> 01:16:02.840 and that even Mark Martin Luther King was not a pacifist like Gandhi. He 932 01:16:02.960 --> 01:16:05.640 was the first to say, like, yeah, give me armed troops to 933 01:16:05.680 --> 01:16:10.640 help get those little girls into the schools. It's just that he didn't want 934 01:16:10.640 --> 01:16:15.119 to use violence as a specific organizing tactic as a strategy. This is turning 935 01:16:15.159 --> 01:16:17.760 into the long model age and apologize and so please jump in anytime you want 936 01:16:17.760 --> 01:16:21.119 to tell me how wrong I am. But I think therefore, as a 937 01:16:21.159 --> 01:16:27.359 part of that we equate any kind of violence as the same, and in 938 01:16:27.439 --> 01:16:30.600 superheroes we get this all the time, where someone will say I will not 939 01:16:30.800 --> 01:16:33.079 kill and I will not murder, as though they're the same thing, as 940 01:16:33.119 --> 01:16:39.960 though fighting back in self defense, and that causing a death of someone or 941 01:16:40.000 --> 01:16:43.600 even fighting against someone who is a threat to you is the same thing as 942 01:16:43.640 --> 01:16:47.279 plotting their murder. And where I really and yes, it is because I 943 01:16:47.279 --> 01:16:49.880 love Star Wars that the Star Wars chapter is the one that I think I 944 01:16:49.920 --> 01:16:55.119 objected to the most, but because in the Star Wars chapter one of the 945 01:16:55.119 --> 01:16:59.880 things that he talks about is how you know it's not really he basically says 946 01:16:59.880 --> 01:17:02.359 that Star Wars is fascist. I think they specifically say that because the idea 947 01:17:02.439 --> 01:17:08.600 being that the rebels are still using violence to fight for their republic, and 948 01:17:08.680 --> 01:17:13.359 he talks about how you know, they give a great speech about violence and 949 01:17:13.399 --> 01:17:16.800 then they just go up and blow up the Death Star. The authors, 950 01:17:16.800 --> 01:17:21.960 though, failed to mention that the Death Star was literally seconds away from obliterating 951 01:17:21.960 --> 01:17:29.279 a planet full of people and had already obliterated a planet full of literal billions 952 01:17:29.319 --> 01:17:33.479 of people. And to me, especially when you tie it in specifically and 953 01:17:33.600 --> 01:17:41.119 say governmental fighting for a government through violence is inherently fascist. I have to 954 01:17:41.199 --> 01:17:46.039 ask, please tell me when Hitler was outvoted. He wasn't. Hitler was 955 01:17:46.079 --> 01:17:53.239 defeated through violence. Democracy was restored to Germany through violence and to most of 956 01:17:53.279 --> 01:17:58.359 Europe, and the democracy it was restored is highly problematic. I mean, 957 01:17:58.760 --> 01:18:01.319 I think one thing we can say about all this is that is the problem 958 01:18:01.399 --> 01:18:05.479 that these heroes are challenging democracy, or that actual democracy has never really existed. 959 01:18:05.520 --> 01:18:09.680 It's always been oligarchy and cops and all these kind of problems. That's 960 01:18:09.720 --> 01:18:13.760 the whole of the set of canon worms. So I guess that's just where 961 01:18:14.000 --> 01:18:17.720 I am defending superheroes a bit, because I think that the idea that the 962 01:18:17.840 --> 01:18:23.520 use of violence is inherently fascist, even when it is the use of violence 963 01:18:23.520 --> 01:18:30.239 to try to create a system of a more democratic government, I just can't 964 01:18:30.279 --> 01:18:32.800 believe that. And I'll close we just saying that. It's where again, 965 01:18:32.880 --> 01:18:36.319 V for Vendetta is to me my perfect embodiment. It's why I love V 966 01:18:36.359 --> 01:18:41.399 for Vendetta so much, because what V does is he says, I will 967 01:18:41.520 --> 01:18:46.800 use violence to clear away the things that make everyone so afraid of non violence, 968 01:18:47.000 --> 01:18:50.560 of being non violent, and he does that, and then all the 969 01:18:50.600 --> 01:18:57.720 people who he inspired march on the troops who don't fire, and the actual 970 01:18:57.800 --> 01:19:01.359 democratic revolution that happens is completely non violent. It's just inspired by this man 971 01:19:01.399 --> 01:19:06.319 of violence. Okay, we'll time it later or either seven minute monologue or 972 01:19:06.319 --> 01:19:15.520 even fifteen tell me all the ways I'm wrong. It's impossible to tell you 973 01:19:15.600 --> 01:19:19.560 all the ways you were wrong because it's not a it's not a monologue that 974 01:19:19.600 --> 01:19:24.840 needs to be picked. Apart that way, I will say in defensive Jewett 975 01:19:24.840 --> 01:19:29.000 and Lawrence that I think they're a big issue with blowing up the Death Star 976 01:19:29.199 --> 01:19:33.199 had more to do with how it was presented narratively to make the audience excited, 977 01:19:34.960 --> 01:19:43.119 that that the violence itself was the exciting thing. And as it happens, 978 01:19:43.279 --> 01:19:45.119 So we were preparing for this, you read eighty five percent of the 979 01:19:45.119 --> 01:19:48.880 book. I've read the whole book, but not recently, but I like 980 01:19:49.840 --> 01:19:54.760 I have a cop an electronic copy, and so I went through it again 981 01:19:54.840 --> 01:19:59.159 on my iPad. But sitting down today I picked up the hard copy, 982 01:19:59.520 --> 01:20:03.800 which had like a lot of notes. But one of the things that I 983 01:20:03.880 --> 01:20:06.600 kept, and I don't know why I kept it, but one of the 984 01:20:06.600 --> 01:20:10.640 things I kept was the note from the person who sent it to me, 985 01:20:10.680 --> 01:20:16.439 which was their publisher, a guy named render Ventil, and it's like, 986 01:20:16.479 --> 01:20:20.399 I'm sending you this complimentary copy from because the authors asked me to. I 987 01:20:20.439 --> 01:20:23.800 hope, blah blah blah, you'll review it or something. And I think 988 01:20:23.800 --> 01:20:29.720 I wrote a review in some academic journal, but I had forgotten render vent 989 01:20:29.760 --> 01:20:34.600 Till Render vent Till It was worked at the publishing company that makes that published 990 01:20:34.600 --> 01:20:39.520 this book, which is Urdman's, which is in Grand Rapids, Michigan, 991 01:20:39.640 --> 01:20:45.079 which is perhaps one of the most conservative Christian places I've ever been. And 992 01:20:45.119 --> 01:20:48.720 I'm from Michigan, so I've been there a few times. And he's also 993 01:20:49.000 --> 01:20:57.880 related somehow to a really important theologian named Cornelius Van Till, who was like 994 01:20:58.119 --> 01:21:02.960 the guy who makes calvin is important again. He's like a straight up neo 995 01:21:03.039 --> 01:21:11.640 Calvinist, you know these free will is problematic. And so this guy, 996 01:21:11.720 --> 01:21:19.359 who I would associate with a very specific kind of Christianity, was really excited 997 01:21:19.359 --> 01:21:25.640 by the myth of the American superheroes a book because it actually was not like 998 01:21:25.800 --> 01:21:34.279 that. It's a it's a very open ended liberal argument to make. And 999 01:21:34.359 --> 01:21:40.920 so you had this long monologue. Here's my critique of your long monologue. 1000 01:21:40.920 --> 01:21:45.199 I have no critique. The thing about long monologues is we're interpreting the myths 1001 01:21:45.239 --> 01:21:50.640 when we do them, and the interpretations are the things that are worth talking 1002 01:21:50.640 --> 01:21:56.479 about. And you don't discount to the interpretation. You just react to the 1003 01:21:56.560 --> 01:22:01.039 interpretation. So I reacted to your little death star thing, but probably more 1004 01:22:01.079 --> 01:22:06.119 for me than from them. That's how. That's how societies work. Yeah, 1005 01:22:06.720 --> 01:22:12.079 I'm both an anthropologist and a historian, and if you were to ask 1006 01:22:12.159 --> 01:22:15.520 me how I could tell if a society was failing, I wouldn't say it 1007 01:22:15.560 --> 01:22:20.760 had to do with economics or social units or anything. I would say, 1008 01:22:21.239 --> 01:22:26.479 you know, a society is on its way out when it taught stops sharing 1009 01:22:26.520 --> 01:22:30.800 the same stories together. Yeah, that's it. As soon as they're not 1010 01:22:30.880 --> 01:22:34.159 sharing the same stories, you need to be worried. But I'm also, 1011 01:22:34.640 --> 01:22:39.720 by training as an anthropologist by one thing on that. Yes, And I 1012 01:22:39.800 --> 01:22:44.560 think a great example of that is the X Men are one example where you 1013 01:22:44.560 --> 01:22:48.680 have Magneto and Professor X at various points of the story either have fundamentally different 1014 01:22:48.720 --> 01:22:53.800 ideas of what it means to be a mutant or they're more agreeing or they're 1015 01:22:53.800 --> 01:22:58.199 more disagreeing in our own world. You know, a lot of people today 1016 01:22:58.199 --> 01:23:00.800 would say that, like the difference in like red state, blue state of 1017 01:23:00.880 --> 01:23:05.000 US just fund we have such fundamentally different understandings of the American myth that it's 1018 01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:09.560 almost becoming two different stories is to me the perfect illustration of what you're talking 1019 01:23:09.600 --> 01:23:15.600 about there. Yes, okay, but as an anthropologist, I was trained 1020 01:23:15.640 --> 01:23:20.800 as a biological anthropologist, which means I taught human evolution and human genetics a 1021 01:23:20.840 --> 01:23:27.359 lot when I first started teaching, and I'm pretty good at teaching them. 1022 01:23:27.439 --> 01:23:32.319 Though I wouldn't call myself a evolutionary anthropologist anymore. But here's an evolutionary thing 1023 01:23:32.399 --> 01:23:36.079 that I think is important that can be used as a metaphor. When you're 1024 01:23:36.119 --> 01:23:45.359 looking at traits in a population from an evolutionary perspective, the less variability there 1025 01:23:45.439 --> 01:23:48.640 is in the trait, the better the traite is working. When you see 1026 01:23:48.640 --> 01:23:56.279 a lot of variability, it means that that there's biological experiments going on to 1027 01:23:56.279 --> 01:24:01.520 see what's going to work going forward. So, and you see a lot 1028 01:24:01.680 --> 01:24:11.640 of variability in blood types, that is a statement about how we have not 1029 01:24:12.000 --> 01:24:16.039 been dealing we have not been evolving those particular things in a way that led 1030 01:24:16.079 --> 01:24:21.800 to a single conclusion. If you change a couple of genes for putting together 1031 01:24:21.880 --> 01:24:26.359 a heart, you don't have a person anymore. You have a dead thing. 1032 01:24:27.439 --> 01:24:30.199 But you can change a couple of genes for eye color and still have 1033 01:24:30.279 --> 01:24:38.399 a person, right, And the variability there tells us something about evolutionary experiments. 1034 01:24:38.880 --> 01:24:43.079 I think the variability in American myth right now is exactly the same thing. 1035 01:24:43.680 --> 01:24:45.720 I don't think it's as problematic as we think. I don't think. 1036 01:24:46.159 --> 01:24:50.880 I don't think the red stats are going to march into the Blue States because 1037 01:24:51.319 --> 01:24:56.720 there are blue people in the Red States and red people in the Blue States. 1038 01:24:57.600 --> 01:25:01.600 Very true, right, And the fact that we are experimenting with different 1039 01:25:01.960 --> 01:25:11.000 interpretations of American mythology is just a statement that we are trying to figure out 1040 01:25:11.119 --> 01:25:15.840 what progress is for us as a people right now, and the question is 1041 01:25:15.920 --> 01:25:19.319 can we figure that out well? And I guess that's actually that is a 1042 01:25:19.359 --> 01:25:25.840 fantastic point. And I wonder if that's the perfect lead into the much more 1043 01:25:25.880 --> 01:25:30.760 summarized version of my long monologue of my only critique, because I do think, 1044 01:25:30.840 --> 01:25:34.159 like so much of this book is dead on. My only critique of 1045 01:25:34.199 --> 01:25:40.159 what they and I think is something you were saying of superheroes being the reification 1046 01:25:40.199 --> 01:25:44.760 of this myth is I feel like that is probably true for the majority of 1047 01:25:44.800 --> 01:25:48.720 superhero stories, and certainly for a lot of superhero stories. But I think 1048 01:25:48.880 --> 01:25:56.479 I would argue that more recently, a lot of the writers of these stories, 1049 01:25:56.600 --> 01:25:59.600 both on film but also in books and in comic books we're often you 1050 01:25:59.640 --> 01:26:03.840 can probably stray a lot further, have very consciously been aware of that and 1051 01:26:04.000 --> 01:26:09.960 actively been trying to make their version of a superhero story in argument, like 1052 01:26:10.079 --> 01:26:13.039 to put it in dialogue with a mono myth and change it. And so 1053 01:26:13.079 --> 01:26:18.520 that's where you get the image of the like Batman being so sad and broken 1054 01:26:18.720 --> 01:26:23.199 is not part of a lot of those original stories, and it's certainly the 1055 01:26:23.279 --> 01:26:28.079 idea that maybe he's wrong is never a part today it is. Becky Allen, 1056 01:26:28.119 --> 01:26:31.479 I talked about one thing what we got onto that talk about the myth 1057 01:26:31.479 --> 01:26:34.520 of the rugged individual, which I think again is tied end but not exactly 1058 01:26:34.600 --> 01:26:40.239 the same. It was because of Rogue One where the writers had very consciously 1059 01:26:40.319 --> 01:26:44.159 said, we want this to be an ensemble movie because we wanted to not 1060 01:26:44.199 --> 01:26:46.640 be about that one great hero. We want it to be about a team 1061 01:26:46.680 --> 01:26:54.199 of people. And I guess to me, what I what I would say 1062 01:26:54.359 --> 01:26:59.279 is that instead of thinking that heroes are a product and a reification of the 1063 01:26:59.319 --> 01:27:03.840 mono myth, that's problematic. That because the Motto myth is so strong, 1064 01:27:04.720 --> 01:27:09.039 superheroes, like any part of our culture, are going to be in conversation 1065 01:27:09.119 --> 01:27:12.840 with the monto a myth. But that I think it's a great conversation because 1066 01:27:13.560 --> 01:27:15.920 it opens us up to the critique and that a lot of them are engaging 1067 01:27:15.920 --> 01:27:19.960 in critique of the Monto myth, some self awarely and some not, rather 1068 01:27:20.000 --> 01:27:28.319 than it just being a repetition and a strengthening of it. Yes, I 1069 01:27:28.359 --> 01:27:30.920 see exactly what you mean, I think, and yeah, that's kind of 1070 01:27:30.920 --> 01:27:35.920 the point. And I will I will agree that there's a lot of credit 1071 01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:41.680 to be given there. I think a lot of it goes to Tony Gilroy. 1072 01:27:43.359 --> 01:27:47.199 Right. So, I've been thinking about a term. I actually asked 1073 01:27:47.199 --> 01:27:50.520 you about this on Facebook, Matthew. I've been thinking about a term a 1074 01:27:50.560 --> 01:27:55.680 lot because I needed to use it for an introduction to a book I was 1075 01:27:55.720 --> 01:28:04.119 writing. The term is eschithological hope and eschatological hope. Eschatology is the study 1076 01:28:04.119 --> 01:28:10.159 of the end of the world. It tends to be part of Christian theology, 1077 01:28:10.279 --> 01:28:15.000 but it works everywhere. And eschatology is, you know, what happens 1078 01:28:15.079 --> 01:28:20.199 at the ending of the world and immediately thereafter. And so I've just edited 1079 01:28:20.199 --> 01:28:27.640 a book on the PlayStation game Horizon zero Dawn and its sequel, which takes 1080 01:28:27.640 --> 01:28:30.479 place a thousand years after the end of the world exactly a thousand years, 1081 01:28:30.520 --> 01:28:35.119 which was a weird number, has nothing to do with Jesus, nothing, 1082 01:28:36.399 --> 01:28:43.720 And it reminded me of what the Myth of the American Superhero book says about 1083 01:28:43.800 --> 01:28:50.319 eschatological hope, which is it's a thing in which people who are part of 1084 01:28:50.359 --> 01:28:59.319 the outside can, through their violence of the American mono myth, become part 1085 01:28:59.520 --> 01:29:04.760 of the structure of the mythology. Again, that the end of things allows 1086 01:29:04.880 --> 01:29:10.560 the outsiders to become part of things. That is the new thing. And 1087 01:29:11.199 --> 01:29:15.720 I kind of I kind of think that that's where we're at. We're all 1088 01:29:15.840 --> 01:29:20.039 questioning if we're part of this American system, and I think we should have 1089 01:29:20.600 --> 01:29:26.640 schizological hope. I think we should think that the parts of the American system 1090 01:29:26.640 --> 01:29:29.279 that we can finally get to the point where we agree these are the things 1091 01:29:29.279 --> 01:29:34.039 that need to be fixed, will allow us to expand who's included in it 1092 01:29:34.840 --> 01:29:38.920 so that the exiles will feel as though they're part of it. Again, 1093 01:29:39.680 --> 01:29:43.640 that's the hope part. I mean to quote Martin Luther King, you know, 1094 01:29:43.680 --> 01:29:46.560 the idea of the arc of history bends towards justice. To me, 1095 01:29:46.600 --> 01:29:50.199 it's not. It is by no means coincidental that that is a Christian pastor 1096 01:29:50.319 --> 01:29:57.920 saying that, because it's a very eschatological idea and it's so much about just 1097 01:29:57.960 --> 01:30:00.159 the fundamental basis of how you think that it's kind of hard to get people 1098 01:30:00.199 --> 01:30:04.520 who aren't who are raised in an eschatological world like we all are, because 1099 01:30:05.159 --> 01:30:10.680 even a Christian and also has a lot of eschatology in Islam. It's just 1100 01:30:10.760 --> 01:30:14.680 the idea that time is linear, that that that history is linear instead of 1101 01:30:14.720 --> 01:30:16.119 being cyclical like it is in a lot of other places. And so yeah, 1102 01:30:16.119 --> 01:30:18.840 that idea that like we can have the hope that it's going to get 1103 01:30:18.880 --> 01:30:25.199 better and better and better. I totally agree with the last you know, 1104 01:30:25.560 --> 01:30:29.800 and well, we also all in the United States were raised in a world 1105 01:30:29.840 --> 01:30:34.520 where there was a nuclear eschatology to deal with. Yeah, I mean, 1106 01:30:34.560 --> 01:30:39.319 we all expected the end. We all expected the end to happen, probably 1107 01:30:39.399 --> 01:30:43.279 within our lifetimes. And there's still a huge group of Americans who would say 1108 01:30:43.319 --> 01:30:47.960 that now they're talking about the return of Jesus, not you know, the 1109 01:30:48.039 --> 01:30:51.720 Soviets nuking us. But we still talk about how the world is going to 1110 01:30:51.840 --> 01:30:56.600 end a lot, which is why we have so many zombie stories. Yeah, 1111 01:30:56.760 --> 01:31:00.640 I think it's very true. The last thing that I will maybe it's 1112 01:31:00.680 --> 01:31:04.960 cut pushed back, or maybe it's engaging further dialogue with both the authors and 1113 01:31:05.000 --> 01:31:10.880 with you, is what you said about the problems of trying to tell the 1114 01:31:10.960 --> 01:31:15.239 stories of our values or trying to raise these questions about like important questions about 1115 01:31:15.239 --> 01:31:18.600 what is the nature of democracy and how do we deal with problems within the 1116 01:31:18.680 --> 01:31:23.680 democracy and all those things, and problems being like problematic individuals or groups or 1117 01:31:23.680 --> 01:31:28.479 whatever it is, with the idea of who gets desired with being problematic being 1118 01:31:28.520 --> 01:31:32.439 a very important question there. And then yeah, I can understand, like 1119 01:31:32.800 --> 01:31:38.560 I'm a record as saying I want civil war where it's just Tony and Steve 1120 01:31:38.760 --> 01:31:44.199 arguing, arguing for two hours about what should happen, But instead to make 1121 01:31:44.239 --> 01:31:47.119 the movie you got to have violence, you know. I have loved that 1122 01:31:47.159 --> 01:31:51.319 these Star Wars TV shows and even more than novels, are giving us a 1123 01:31:51.359 --> 01:31:58.199 lot more of the people sitting in rooms debating what should the nature of democracy 1124 01:31:58.239 --> 01:32:02.239 be after the Republic? And I think, I credit some of the shows 1125 01:32:02.319 --> 01:32:06.800 of I think are actually addressing some of the points that were brought up about 1126 01:32:06.880 --> 01:32:13.560 what happens when you try to return a republic through warfare and what happens with 1127 01:32:13.600 --> 01:32:15.920 that. I definitely I think there are some good points there, even if 1128 01:32:15.920 --> 01:32:19.479 I think they go too far. But here's the thing. Star Wars has 1129 01:32:19.479 --> 01:32:23.680 taught me an incredible amount of values, and it's given me a place to 1130 01:32:23.680 --> 01:32:26.600 think about my values and challenge my values, and they've changed over time. 1131 01:32:27.319 --> 01:32:30.039 Star Wars has informed me to be, I think, a better person, 1132 01:32:30.079 --> 01:32:33.520 a better citizen. But at five years old, I didn't watch Star Wars 1133 01:32:33.600 --> 01:32:38.399 because of Luke and Yoda talking about the nature of anger. I watched because 1134 01:32:38.560 --> 01:32:43.520 the X Wings were cool. And when I was a kid, you know, 1135 01:32:43.640 --> 01:32:45.239 if there were vitamins I needed to eat, my mother would sometimes you 1136 01:32:45.239 --> 01:32:50.239 know, stir them into something I wanted to eat. And I guess I 1137 01:32:50.319 --> 01:32:56.199 wonder like, yes, violence is probably too much a part of the American 1138 01:32:56.319 --> 01:33:00.479 character, and I'd like to see more stories about non violence. And honestly, 1139 01:33:00.520 --> 01:33:03.079 I think the return of American unions and the fact that we're starting to 1140 01:33:03.079 --> 01:33:08.880 pay more attention to the protests in other places like to me, BLM was 1141 01:33:08.920 --> 01:33:13.239 a great movement forward against that kind of story, because again, BLM is 1142 01:33:13.279 --> 01:33:16.319 not inherently violent by any means. It's when the cops attacked that. Don't 1143 01:33:16.439 --> 01:33:21.600 use the past tense. Okay, thank you, my apologies, because yeah, 1144 01:33:21.600 --> 01:33:25.479 you're right, it's very much still a current thing, to be sure, 1145 01:33:28.000 --> 01:33:30.960 But at the point of story, if you're saying that we want stories 1146 01:33:31.039 --> 01:33:35.600 that will pass along values or give chance for people to talk about ideologies and 1147 01:33:35.680 --> 01:33:41.479 values, you have to get them to pay attention to the story. And 1148 01:33:41.840 --> 01:33:44.880 so I guess that would be my pushback of like, I think the way 1149 01:33:44.880 --> 01:33:46.920 capitalism makes us tell stories is really problematic, and like there always has to 1150 01:33:46.960 --> 01:33:49.600 be a love story, or there's never a love story, and that's just 1151 01:33:49.600 --> 01:33:53.880 as probably all of that I agree with, I guess, I just I 1152 01:33:53.880 --> 01:33:59.359 don't see it as quite a much of a problem because I know people white 1153 01:33:59.399 --> 01:34:05.399 people who didn't really understand subtle racism until I've gotten great listener feedback from people 1154 01:34:05.399 --> 01:34:10.199 who said, look, I never really understood what people were talking about by 1155 01:34:10.239 --> 01:34:15.960 like microaggressions and subtle racism until I watched Falcon walk into a bank and try 1156 01:34:15.000 --> 01:34:18.119 to get a loan and saw the way the loan officer treated him of like 1157 01:34:18.119 --> 01:34:23.119 assuming he was an athlete, or you know, not not thinking of him 1158 01:34:23.159 --> 01:34:26.319 and treating him very differently than they would have a white person. And so 1159 01:34:26.359 --> 01:34:29.880 I guess that's kind of my final pushback because I I overall think superhero stories 1160 01:34:29.920 --> 01:34:34.319 are fundamentally good, because I do think that they well, let me put 1161 01:34:34.359 --> 01:34:36.880 it this way, actually, I would say I don't think superhero stories are 1162 01:34:36.880 --> 01:34:40.359 good or bad. I think there are a tool, and I think there're 1163 01:34:40.359 --> 01:34:44.680 a tool that can be used to recreate the American modern myth and all its 1164 01:34:44.319 --> 01:34:51.159 problematicness, or the a tool used to challenge it. So, in other 1165 01:34:51.199 --> 01:34:56.960 words, you're saying superhero narratives are good because they can help us change. 1166 01:34:57.840 --> 01:35:01.520 I'm saying they have to. I'm saying that's there too. Yeah. Yeah. 1167 01:35:01.720 --> 01:35:04.560 Then what you're saying, which goes all the way back to the beginning, 1168 01:35:04.680 --> 01:35:11.560 is superheroes are good because they're mythological, because it's through myth that we 1169 01:35:12.039 --> 01:35:15.640 figure out how to change. Yeah, which is a perfect conclusion to have, 1170 01:35:16.600 --> 01:35:20.119 and I cannot argue with your point. I agree with your point completely. 1171 01:35:20.239 --> 01:35:25.640 I'm just less optimistic about it. That's fair, That's certainly fair. 1172 01:35:27.119 --> 01:35:30.800 But yeah, I think that makes real sense. And I definitely think, 1173 01:35:30.640 --> 01:35:34.079 honestly the strike is giving me a little hope as well, because I think 1174 01:35:35.239 --> 01:35:42.840 it's very hard for myths to challenge the underpinnings of society when the people who 1175 01:35:42.920 --> 01:35:46.319 benefit most from the current society as it is are profiting are the ones deciding 1176 01:35:46.359 --> 01:35:50.319 what myths get told and not told on screen. And I do think that 1177 01:35:50.560 --> 01:35:55.760 a lot of the things that are pushing the furthest are things like Beef Vendetta 1178 01:35:55.920 --> 01:35:59.239 or the TV show Shira, or a lot of the independent comic books or 1179 01:35:59.600 --> 01:36:02.039 novel or things like that, where it's it's further from the hands of the 1180 01:36:02.119 --> 01:36:04.760 profit centers, and there's don't be able to make a book, to be 1181 01:36:04.840 --> 01:36:10.880 sure, but there's more chance to you know, really challenge these things without 1182 01:36:10.920 --> 01:36:14.279 you know, somewhere from Warner Brothers or Disney going like that's a little too 1183 01:36:14.359 --> 01:36:16.640 radical for our air. So the reason Star Trek is better than Star Wars 1184 01:36:16.760 --> 01:36:24.640 is because they have better meetings. The best episodes of Star Trek always take 1185 01:36:24.680 --> 01:36:29.119 place in one room, and they're always a meeting, and the discussion of 1186 01:36:29.239 --> 01:36:32.640 what's going to be important is told through myths. It just is. So. 1187 01:36:33.119 --> 01:36:38.840 If we use superheroes to do that good. If we use heavily fictionalized 1188 01:36:39.319 --> 01:36:45.920 biopics to do it good, if we if we use comic books good, 1189 01:36:45.920 --> 01:36:54.079 if we use speeches from the president good. It's the stories. And yeah, 1190 01:36:54.119 --> 01:36:58.319 you're right about the strike. Its myths are stories and the storytellers are 1191 01:36:58.399 --> 01:37:03.439 on strike. That that that's that's scary because the writers are the most important 1192 01:37:03.439 --> 01:37:08.800 people in that. I think. Great, we have one more big question 1193 01:37:08.840 --> 01:37:11.199 I want to ask you, but we've gone way over time, so I'm 1194 01:37:11.239 --> 01:37:14.680 gonna save that for the members. So h the question is going to be 1195 01:37:14.720 --> 01:37:19.199 about what it is when we know that the myths are when when we know 1196 01:37:19.359 --> 01:37:23.359 the people writing the myths as opposed to myths that are passed down and all 1197 01:37:23.399 --> 01:37:26.880 the like. And uh, it is a great time to become a member. 1198 01:37:27.520 --> 01:37:30.000 All members you only pay five dollars a month or fifty five dollars a 1199 01:37:30.119 --> 01:37:33.000 year. It's basically the same thing as Patreon, but we're now I have 1200 01:37:33.119 --> 01:37:36.159 joined the True Story FM family of podcasts, so it's not a member, 1201 01:37:36.279 --> 01:37:40.319 it's now a membership there, but you get access all this great stuff, 1202 01:37:40.600 --> 01:37:45.319 add free content, bonus content, access to there's a great True Story FM 1203 01:37:45.399 --> 01:37:47.600 discord was a great way to talk to me. That's in the show notes. 1204 01:37:47.800 --> 01:37:50.479 But there are some member only channels. We're going to start doing some 1205 01:37:50.600 --> 01:37:55.239 member only live feeds, so great time to become a member. And right 1206 01:37:55.319 --> 01:37:59.399 now during the strike, twenty five percent of everything that comes in from membership, 1207 01:37:59.439 --> 01:38:01.319 and this is therefore at this point it's a donation both from me and 1208 01:38:01.439 --> 01:38:05.119 the True Story Family of podcasts. Twenty five percent of that goes directly to 1209 01:38:05.600 --> 01:38:09.720 the strikers, the funds to help the people are on strike and all the 1210 01:38:09.760 --> 01:38:13.399 other people who are affected by that strike. But if you're not a member, 1211 01:38:13.439 --> 01:38:15.319 of course, there's all still lots of great ways to get in touch 1212 01:38:15.359 --> 01:38:17.359 with us. You know, if you go to the Ethical Panda dot com 1213 01:38:17.560 --> 01:38:21.920 or go and find this show on True Story the note, the links to 1214 01:38:21.960 --> 01:38:24.880 all of that will be in the show notes. You can find all the 1215 01:38:24.920 --> 01:38:29.720 ways to contact me on TikTok, Twitter, Facebook, email, etc. 1216 01:38:30.960 --> 01:38:34.439 At some point we'll probably jump the ship of Twitter, but I'm waiting for 1217 01:38:34.560 --> 01:38:38.159 like a solid ship to pull up next to it, because right now I 1218 01:38:38.199 --> 01:38:42.600 have invites for eight different platforms that and I can't keep track of that. 1219 01:38:43.600 --> 01:38:45.640 But you know, always contact me on social media. Are there, would 1220 01:38:45.680 --> 01:38:47.640 love to hear you, And of course, if you have feedback about this, 1221 01:38:47.880 --> 01:38:50.560 Matthew is definitely gonna be back at some point talking about mythology and we'll 1222 01:38:50.720 --> 01:38:54.039 probably do your feedback then. So but if you want to talk to you 1223 01:38:54.079 --> 01:38:57.279 directly, Matthew, what should they know about you and how to follow your 1224 01:38:57.319 --> 01:39:00.920 cool stuff? Well, I'm anthropologist and historian, as I've said more and 1225 01:39:01.000 --> 01:39:06.479 more more times than I should have, So I'm basically an academic and I'm 1226 01:39:06.680 --> 01:39:15.399 one hundred and seven years old. So I got rid of my Twitter account 1227 01:39:15.520 --> 01:39:19.760 a long time ago. Death threats are horrible. I have a Facebook account 1228 01:39:19.880 --> 01:39:24.680 and nothing, and you know, a static web page that is about my 1229 01:39:24.760 --> 01:39:31.479 scholarship. But right now I edit a book series on video games and tabletop 1230 01:39:31.600 --> 01:39:38.520 games called Studies in Gaming. And if you wanted to find out about how 1231 01:39:39.079 --> 01:39:42.720 we can talk about the stories told in games. That's the thing I would 1232 01:39:42.760 --> 01:39:45.520 look at. It's about fifty books now. So if you were to just 1233 01:39:45.640 --> 01:39:50.840 google Capel kap elll because everybody mis smells it and studies in gaming, you'd 1234 01:39:50.880 --> 01:39:55.920 find a bunch of books on things as diverse as dungeons and dragons. And 1235 01:39:56.000 --> 01:40:00.159 we just have a new Magic the Gathering book that just came out to you 1236 01:40:00.239 --> 01:40:04.199 know, Call of Duty, so and everything. And I just turned in 1237 01:40:04.319 --> 01:40:08.880 a manuscript on the Horizon games, as I said, so look at that. 1238 01:40:09.520 --> 01:40:11.680 And if you really wanted to talk to me, you can find me 1239 01:40:11.760 --> 01:40:15.880 on Facebook by my name. But also as I said, I will I 1240 01:40:15.960 --> 01:40:20.079 will foward on any emails and get Matthew's comment as well, or just read 1241 01:40:20.119 --> 01:40:24.279 your feedback when Matthew comes back on the air, which hopefully will be soon, 1242 01:40:24.319 --> 01:40:26.840 because it turns out there's a lot more in mythology that we haven't covered. 1243 01:40:26.920 --> 01:40:29.560 In the future, will try to cover it. In about ninety minutes, 1244 01:40:29.560 --> 01:40:31.600 I apologist went on so long, but there were monologues that needed to 1245 01:40:31.640 --> 01:40:36.199 be had and points that needed to be made. So to everyone who's been 1246 01:40:36.199 --> 01:40:39.239 listening, thank you so much for being a part of all this. To 1247 01:40:39.319 --> 01:40:41.439 our members, just hold on for one more moment. We'll get to your 1248 01:40:41.479 --> 01:40:45.119 Patreon section, but to everyone else, thank you so much. We have spoken