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In a revelation that's part belief,
part bias, and a dash of unexpected

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irony. New research peaks behind the
curtain of Christian nationalism and its curious relationship

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with the attitudes toward atheists in the
United States. While atheists face persistent prejudice,

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the study uncovers a surprising twist.
Black Americans in states steeped in Christian

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nationalism appear less prejudice against atheists than
their white counterpart. Black Americans are giving

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Christian or Black Americans in Christian nationalist
states are giving prejudice the side eye.

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The study unravels a nuanced dance between
identity defiance and unintended alliances and an era

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of growing division. The results not
only illuminate the intricate dynamics of belief systems,

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but also raise broader questions that reach
beyond the realm of eight This story

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is from siposts by Eric W.
Dollan on December third, twenty twenty three.

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Phoebe, I'm excited to hear what
you have to say on this,

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I mean, the psychology of Christian
nationalism and their distrust of atheist othertimes given

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now we've got actual, actual data
on this I mean, that's quite impressive.

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But it is fascinating that African Americans
in high Christian nationalist areas, according

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to the article, did not share
the same mess as their Caucasian which I

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found to be quite an interesting thing. Technical yeah, yeah, you know,

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because it just doesn't quite mesh doesn't
quite doesn't quite mesh doesn't quite meld

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with what you would expect you would
expect. As Christian nationalism increases, a

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broad swathe across the board would say, hang on a minute, we distrust

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atheism. It's like, for example, in high Muslim majority countries, you

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would expect a greater level of trust
or other Muslims. You wouldn't expect it

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to be well, okay, well
Muslims from this area actually trust other Muslims

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less. It's not something you'd actually
expect to see. But having the side

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of big paper to actually back this
up with actually really interesting because it doesn't

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really surprise me. Because what it
does show is that in these areas people

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don't all voters one mind. There's
no hive mind here, which is actually

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really lovely to see. And when
you actually break it down, to start

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breaking this down by race and to
go well, hang on, a minute,

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this race of this race don't all
speak as one. And I've now

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got you know, data on that, and that's actually quite nice to actually

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confirm that people actually do have individuality
and these things. But when you start

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digging into this, you would expect
Christian nationalists, the crystal fascists of this

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world to absolutely hate the four of
us on this screen and everything that we

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stand for, because we are the
unsavable people. Myself in particular because I'm,

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according to them, I'm an aposta
because I've left a religion left too,

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and how old am I? God, I'm the worst of the world.

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But to actually see other people going, oh well, it's not the

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person actually really nice to see.
I mean, I'm not, you know,

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a heteronormative individual. A lot of
the people aren't particularly heteronormative. When

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it unfortunately comes to the African American
community. There are high rates of single

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mothers, high rates of lone parents, high rates of absolute fathers, and

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in white communities that much lower.
And I think that that may have something

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to do with as well. Which
is something to bear in mind is that

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whilst Christian nationalism is something that distrusts
atheism, it also distrusts lack of heteronormative

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conformity. So the two point four
children, nuclear family, mother, father,

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children, going to school, academically, extracurricular activities, dog house with

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two rooms upstairs, two rooms downstairs, front garden, backgarden, et cetera.

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It's not something you're going to find
in a lot of my local African

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American communities ran because they've got high
poverty, right, and high poverty rates

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don't generally tend to lead to the
dog, the car, the house,

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et cetera. And I think that
looking at this from an economic lens as

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well is quite interesting because it shows
that Christian nationalism is just like society itself.

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It is diverging, and it is
produced against itself in these matters.

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So, Infidel, what shall take? Well? First, I hope that

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everyone has their official copy of the
Great Atheist Mass planned close, because I

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was going to reach out and talk
about it. You know, I'd hate

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to be discriminated against the group that's
not prepared for Okay, okay, oh

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wait, I thought it was the
recipe book. I forgot. I wasn't

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supposed to talk about that in public. I'm so so so sorry, Scott,

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but you know, seriously. You
know, I hate to call us

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a religious group. We're not a
religious group. I mean, we're the

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lack of religious group, but we
are the one of the fastest growing.

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And I understand why the Christian nationalists
are so anti And it's not just the

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fact that we disagree. Are we
stand for over something different than what they

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believe. It also goes down to
what they're told time and again you sit

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and listening to what you know,
people standing behind a piece of wood or

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screaming at their people and telling them
about people like us and people that are

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not like them, whatever them is. And that's always a new term,

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depending depending on who's saying it.
But you know, this negativity makes sense,

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and you mentioned the common ground.
You know, I think that what

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we're seeing is the convergence of whites
becoming a plurality and no longer a majority

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in this country, along with Christianity
lose the control, and these people are

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feeling concern and anger from both sides. And yes, they're taking it out

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on other people, and it's out
of fear. It's out of fear changed

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and something different. They're getting older. Church population continues to decline, so

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their choices are as they yell louder
or chain. You know, we are

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seeing even in like more moderate and
I hate to say moderate with them,

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but you know the Pope saying,
well, you know, maybe gay people

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are okay if we squint and do
this and we can pretend this is okay.

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They can do that, but the
Christian Nationalists, they're trying to hold

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a line. And that line that
they're trying to hold is inevitably going to

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move, and that that's the good
part. You know. Right now they're

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whining to anyone who's willing to listen. You know, perhaps we should.

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You know, last Pride month they
even lost cracker Barrel and the woke.

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So you know, for me personally, they can have cracker Barrel back.

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You know, I got a cracker
barrel. I'm sorry, Phoebe. I

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do apologize, but I'm willing to
sacrifice it for the team. And because

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the truth is, uh, they're
just getting louder and they're getting smaller.

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And for that, I say,
they they're going to feel the way they

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feel and they're going to become less
relevant as that continue. Scott, where

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are you at? You know,
I have to right, yeah, yep,

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that's that's next on the agenda here. Now, I just need to

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say, as the math teacher on
the panel here, it just warms my

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heart that we're getting so much interpretation
and so much interest, and and and

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so many different takes on what is
basically just a big math problem. Right,

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they gathered all of this data,
they came to all these conclusions.

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It was really cool the way that
they did it. So excuse me for

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geeking out for a little bit.
That's a compliment in my house, NERD.

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But so they also gathered all this
different demographic data with their sample,

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and so that allowed them to make
all these you know, very nuanced comparisons.

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And we've talked about some of these
already, the first one, of

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course, being that increased Christian nationalism
indicated increased prejudice against atheists on a personal

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level, but not at a state
level, okay, And so so what

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that would imply is that, you
know, there's different aspects to a person's

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identity. Some people might consider their
religion part of their identity. Some people

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might consider their nation as part of
their identity. You know, there's all

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these different things that we can attach
to our identity. And so since there's

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a difference in these two measurements.
What we're what they're saying is that these

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Christian nationalists consider themselves more Christian than
national right and so and so it's it's

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more of a personal, small community
kind of of kind of impetus to to

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toe of this particular line and to
hold this line. It's not so much

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at a larger scale like at a
state level. And so, you know,

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a person's religion is a lot more
reflective of that person. It's derived

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from their like I said, their
immediate person, their personality, their identity,

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and so on. The author if
I read through geeking out right,

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I read through the actual report and
so in the discussion area, they were

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talking about their own perceived flaws in
the in the study and so, which

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is always a good sign if you
see a research or criticizing their own results.

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Uh, that that's kind of a
sign of integrity and authenticity. They

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went on to add they wanted to
add a county level comparisons as well,

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and they thought that that might shed
a little light on that discrepancy between the

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individual levels and at the at the
state level. The second interesting find that

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they are interesting thing that they found, and we've talked about this already as

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well, is that in the states
where UH Christian nationalism was a little higher

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on the scale, black individuals were
actually less likely to show president pre prejudice

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against atheists. And and of course
that shouldn't be surprising. I mean,

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why would black Americans have any mistrust
for you know, for authority. I

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mean, you know, crazy,
right, you know, they're they're quite

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familiar with the business end of bigotry, right right, bigotry duck, Yeah,

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and so you know, so I
can't imagine why that would be an

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issue. But but there's actually a
hidden layer in there, if you if

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you peel away those layers. We
said before that states with with higher Christian

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nationalism went along with increased UH prejudice
against atheists, but it was not at

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the state level, but at this
but there was that racial aspect. And

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so if states with high and I'm
getting a little too complicated here, but

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states that have higher levels of Christian
nationalism, if the black residents of that

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state actually we're lower on the prejudice
scale, that means that the white community

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must have been higher, and that
that discrepancy kind of masked the difference.

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And so white individuals that were in
states that at higher you know, I'm

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just going to stop. I think
I'm out mathed everybody, and so math

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fatigue, right, So I just
wanted to point out those equation exactly exactly.

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But I just I thought the study
was a gold mine. I thought

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they had a large, diverse sample, they had interesting and interlinked results,

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and they had a few curveballs thrown
in there. You know what more could

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I ask? Ask Eli? What's
your take on that? Yeah, So

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as the undergraduate science student on the
panel, I'm happy to nerd out with

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you. I just don't have the
expertise. Welcome, Welcome, we have

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a big tent. We have a
big tent. So I also I was

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excited that I was like, oh, I have access to like scholarly libraries

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through my school. So I pulled
up the study as well, and I

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wanted to look at it, and
I found very interesting, speaking specifically about

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the summary, the comparative summary of
the variable, I'm sure you looked at

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as well. It's interesting that it
is strictly in evangelical Christians where this prejudice

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against atheists is so high. If
you look at Jewish or Muslim participant in

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the survey. There and I don't
have it in front of me now,

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but there they're prejudice. Their score
of prejudice against atheists was point zero three

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point zero eight, where with the
Evangelical Christians it was in the thirties,

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you know, on the left side
of the or the decimals. So that

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was a really interesting at first.
I really thought when I read the title

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of the article, I thought this
was kind of a no brainer. Christian

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nationalists would advocate for a Christian theocracy
and an atheist would inherently oppose that idea.

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There maybe some one off, you
know, circumstances, but I think

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by and large, most people who
don't believe in a god and the Christian

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God would be the enemy of Aquin
Nash. So that was what I first

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thought was a no brainer. But
I did find it interesting. Of course,

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like we've all said already, that
black America seem to show less prejudice,

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and I, of course I'm speaking
about an experience that I don't have,

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But what I've learned from people of
color that are sharing their experiences me

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is that they tend to, at
least those that I've spoke, tend to

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pay attention to how people treat them
individual not how groups treat them, but

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how individual them and make their judgment
of that first character or their their social

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proximity to that person based on how
the individual treats them, because they are

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so used seeing that prejudice that perhaps
like maybe minor sometimes perhaps microaggressions, or

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or sometimes true art and horrible like
discrimination and racism, and they're so used

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to seeing that. And I think
that anybody with who is capable of empathy

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is going to who experiences something horrible
all the time, is not going to

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want others to experience that as well, and would therefore be more trusting of

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And I think you'll see that most
of us in the atheist community. Again,

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there are one off examples, but
by and large most that I've spoke

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with that i'm aware of, that
I see on you know, shows like

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this, are very open, very
accepting towards all lifestyles, all types of

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people. Just if you're a kind
person, I will be kind to you.

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It doesn't matter how you live your
life, as long as you're harm

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to others. And so I think
that's where sort of these particular Black Christian

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nationalists and the atheists that I am
familiar with, I think that's what they

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have in common and why they they
don't why there's not quite that prejudice those

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that were pulled by the service.
That's great, that's great, and that's

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interesting what you were what you were
just talking about, because it implies that

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what I was saying before about how
their personal identity, their religious identity,

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their local their small community identity kind
of trumps their their national commitment. But

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but what you're saying is maybe personal
experience can trump that that that small group

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identities. So that's so that's a
good thing. That's a good thing.

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As you know, we know that, you know, as people get to

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know people in these out groups,
they become less outgroup. Right And I'm

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sorry, go ahead, Nope,
So I believe professor nee is how you

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pronounce it. The author of the
study. Their interpretation was that it was

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a sort of coming together, like
the black Christian nationalists and the atheists that

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are both victims of bigotry and oppression
coming together as a no, we'll fight

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against it. I don't think it's
quite that. I don't think it's an

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intentional union. I think it's just
as I described, it's just a natural

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result of being the victim of that
prejudice by Christian nationalists And would you say

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that, strange Bedfellow? Sure one
might, could one could I have a

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question for the group for the panel
here again this is from the discussion section.

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You know, they were reflecting in
ways that they could improve their their

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study. Uh, the author wondered, quote, does individual Christian nationalism cause

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prejudice against atheists? Or does an
anti atheist attitude strengthen one's beliefs in Christian

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nationalism? So this is the causation
versus correlation thing. So they saw that

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there was a correlation, but they
pondered of what could be the cause?

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Is the Christian causing the nationalism or
is the nationalism causing the Christian or you

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know, the other way around?
Infidel? What's your thoughts? Oh,

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without a doubt, the Christianity aspect
is drived Bove. They want Christian nationalism,

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but to get that you have to
have Christianity as the ultimate law bringer,

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law giver, and that's what they
want. They really do want a

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Theoic. I really do believe that
when it comes down to it, the

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more extremist people on this end are
looking for something that is totally incompatible with

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what we see as a government.
You know, we talk about this is

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unconstitutional or constitutional protection. We have
people like the Speaker of the House right

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who wants to have a constitution mention. So when you have people like this

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governor crab system, what these Christian
nationalists want is something completely incompatible with the

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form of government that we're talking about. What we understand, something completely difficult.

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Eli. I tend to agree with
you. I think it is overwhelmingly

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the Christian nationalism uh leading toward the
anti eighth At. I wouldn't say there

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is an insignificant amount of it being
the other way though. I think people

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who may not have leaned toward Christian
nationalism may have been maybe I'm conservative and

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I'm a Christian, and then maybe
have encounters with atheists or have hear stories

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or there's they're they're being taught about
atheists or atheist and by their church or

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their pastors or their unreligious community,
and they're getting ideas based on that and

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then leaning more towards the Christian nationalist
standpoint because that makes it feel united against

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you know, the sick horribly.
So you're saying they're identifying as Christians first,

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and then they're saying, well,
I guess I better hate atheists,

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know, and so then they do
that as a result, and then the

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whole thing kind of jels together in
one big nasty uh whatever. Yeah,

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I think I think more not like
a decision to hate just for the sake

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of hating necessarily in all cases,
probably not maybe subconsciously. Then yeah,

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just starts starting to like, oh, well, I'm a Christian and atheists

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are not Christian, and atheists hate
God because of course that's that's the reason

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we're atheists. We're just mad at
God. So what they hear behind the

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pullpit whatxact time and time again,
the dehumanization of a sorry, And I

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think that's what leads to there,
Phoebe, what do you think will give

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you the last take on this?
Is the Christian nationalism causing the prejudice against

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atheists or is other way around?
Well, you can't have this kind of

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prejudice against atheism unless you've learned it
somewhere, because you can't walk down the

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street and have a sign about your
head saying atheist theist. It just doesn't

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work like that. It must have
come from somewhere, and it seems blindingly

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obvious that this has come from Christian
because Christian nationalism, at its fundamental heart

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is a belief system, and they
view atheism as a lack of a belief

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system, and that breaks the metric
that they run by. They don't hold

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these prejudices against other religious groups to
the strength that they hold them against atheists,

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in my opinion, because they see
those groups as having a belief system

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that they can tap into and change. And the people that they dislike the

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most are the ones that they considered
the apostates that are now the atheists,

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and they only focus you are abandoned
God, blah blah blah blah blah,

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that's an atheist. What they will
never say is this person never had a

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belief in a deity to start with, which is also a valid form of

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atheism. Not everybody is born with
a religion, and anybody who says you

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are born with a religion can go
and take that attitude and shove it up

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there, because nobody is born with
a religion. Religion is taught in the

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same way prejudice is taught. This
prejudice comes hook line and sinker from the

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religion that is taught and the nationalistic
dogma. In this extreme interpretation of Christianity

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that does nothing but on a fundamental
level, push prejudice. True enough said,

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enough said, I think I can't. I think we're all in agreement

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on that. And on that note, I want to thank Infidel sixty four,

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Phoeb Rose and Eli for joining me
on nonprofits today. I really wish

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this conversation could keep on going