WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:08.039 Yeah, you bet all right. Joining us now is Guy Ralford, and 2 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:12.400 we've had him on several times. That guy is an attorney as well as 3 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:15.839 an NRA firearms instructor and other things like that, but he focuses on a 4 00:00:15.880 --> 00:00:20.559 second amendment. His practice is in Indiana, and there's a couple of very 5 00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:25.559 interesting cases that he was directly involved in, as well as a law in 6 00:00:25.559 --> 00:00:30.920 Indiana that helps to clarify what our rights are when we have to use deadly 7 00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:34.320 force and self defense. And so we want to talk about those two cases 8 00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:37.280 with him. Thank you for joining us, Guy. Oh, it's always 9 00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:40.880 a pleasure, David. Let's talk about this is a couple of different cases. 10 00:00:41.439 --> 00:00:44.799 Christy Phillips is one that you got involved in, and tell us a 11 00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:47.759 little bit about the facts of that case and then how that got you to 12 00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:54.679 get involved in changing the law. And then now you've had another second case 13 00:00:55.200 --> 00:01:00.000 and you've seen how important it is that that law was changed. But first, 14 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:03.000 also a bit about Christy Phillips and what happened in that particular case. 15 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:08.319 You bet. Kisty is a very heroic young lady who lives down in southern 16 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:12.959 Indiana in a very small town called Rising Sun. Indiana, and here about 17 00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:21.159 four years ago, she was involved in a situation where there was a traffic 18 00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:25.400 stop right in front of her house, and it being a very small town. 19 00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:29.599 The officer who had pulled over this guy for suspicious activity in the neighborhood. 20 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:34.640 That officer's son was actually at Kisty's house because he knew Kissy's daughter. 21 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:42.439 And so they're watching it basically as this kid's dad and their fellow community member. 22 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:46.200 This police officer had pulled this person over, a person turned out to 23 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:51.719 be on drugs, on methamphetamine as well as other illegal drugs. He immediately 24 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:57.959 got out of the vehicle. He's screaming profanity. He's screaming undecipherable gibberish. 25 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:00.959 The officer tells him, tells him to get back in his vehicle. He 26 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:06.000 doesn't. He ends up running up on the officer, tackles the officer and 27 00:02:06.120 --> 00:02:10.560 is trying to get the officer's gun. The person who was a former high 28 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:15.120 school wrestler, pretty stocky guy, and he's winning the fight and and the 29 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:19.919 officer's losing control of his firearm. There's they're still wrestling over it to some 30 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:24.159 degree, but but Kissy realizes this is about to turn very bad, very 31 00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:29.479 quickly. She grabs her gun. She runs out to the front of her 32 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:30.840 house, and she's yelling, get off him, get off him, stop. 33 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:38.120 Stop. That guy doesn't stop. The gun's literally seconds or milliseconds away 34 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:42.599 from being aimed at the police officer's head, and she shot the bad guy 35 00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:47.240 and uh and ended the threat and that person ended up dying. But the 36 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:53.000 that officer actually later on told me, uh, he said, he said, 37 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:53.800 you know, when I heard that gun shot, I really thought it 38 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:58.120 was me dying, and I was and I was saying a prayer that I 39 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:01.280 just hope my son didn't didn't watch me get killed. But in fact, 40 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:06.479 that the gunshot was kissedy U, which is like Christie without the R. 41 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:13.599 It always sounds like people are mispronouncing it. Yeah, I see that really 42 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:15.560 quickly. Yeah, well it's not as weird as guy, but it's a 43 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:21.960 little bit of an unusual name. But but at any rate, the local 44 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:24.599 prosecutor's office called your hero. The local police officers called her your hero. 45 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:30.639 This particular officer definitely called her a hero, saying that she clearly saved his 46 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:35.319 life, but just shy of Two years later, just before the Statute of 47 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:39.479 limitations would run. She get sued for millions and millions of dollars by the 48 00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:46.439 family of the deceased bad guy, uh, saying that she was just a 49 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:53.520 hysterical female who had overreacted and and and there was never a reason to use 50 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:59.080 deadly force. Uh and this was wrongful death. And she now owes the 51 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:03.240 family millions of dollars. Wow, did they not have a Was there a 52 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:10.120 police officer's body camera or in our camera in the police car that requires Yeah, 53 00:04:10.120 --> 00:04:13.919 there was no video. There was no video of the event. But 54 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:17.439 everybody there, everyone who witnessed it, including the officer, told the same 55 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:20.759 story. I mean, there was really no ambiguity about what happened. But 56 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:28.600 because this was something that happened literally in her front yard, her homeowner's insurance 57 00:04:28.680 --> 00:04:31.680 was implicated. And what's really interesting about homeowners insurance in this situation is there's 58 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:36.399 an exclusion for intentional acts, like if I intentionally hurt somebody on my property. 59 00:04:36.839 --> 00:04:41.240 But there's an exception to the exclusion, which is if I acted lawful 60 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:45.720 and justified self defense or defense of a third person. So her insurance company 61 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:47.439 centered the letter and said, well, we're going to defend you. But 62 00:04:47.720 --> 00:04:50.560 one we have the right to settle if we want. And two, if 63 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:55.240 it turns out you were not justified, you have no coverage as against any 64 00:04:55.319 --> 00:05:00.000 verdict that might be imposed against you. Wow. So the local police office, 65 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:01.720 there's the Froterneral Order or police down there, looked at this whole situation 66 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:04.720 and said, we don't like anything about this, the fact she's being sued, 67 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:11.199 that the insurance company has the ability to control the defense and any potential 68 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:14.839 settlement. And they actually called NRA. At the same time, they set 69 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:18.480 up a go fundme account and raised a bunch of money, almost six figures. 70 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:24.000 And so we want to hire the best self defense lawyer that we can 71 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:28.279 find in Indiana, and they called NRA. NRA thankfully, at least, 72 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:31.480 I'm grateful they recommended me, and she hired me. And I told her 73 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:34.079 two things when she hired me. I said, I said, Kisty, 74 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:38.800 we're not only going to win this stupid case because it's a frivolous lawsuit. 75 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:42.839 Well, we're going to use this case to change the law. And that's 76 00:05:42.879 --> 00:05:46.920 exactly what we did. We got that case dismissed. But in the meantime, 77 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:51.000 we had a bill pending in the General Assembly in Indiana that says there's 78 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:56.120 complete immunity for the lawful and justified use of force and self defense or defense 79 00:05:56.160 --> 00:06:00.279 of a third person. You can't file a lawsuit if you were injured by 80 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:02.920 that justified use of force, or you're if you're the family of a person 81 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:09.319 who dies as a result of that justified uh force and self defense or defense 82 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:13.120 of a third person. And if you say, damn the torpedoes and file 83 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:15.959 a lawsuit anyway in the face of this immunity. There's a mechanism to get 84 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:20.639 the case dismissed curly on what's called summary judgment. And there's a mandatory attorneys 85 00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:26.040 fees provision that says that the plaintiff then has to pay back all of the 86 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:30.680 defendant's attorneys fees. We're having brought that troublous lawsuit in the face of the 87 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:34.480 immunity statutew So that's and you yours, what we did? You were involved? 88 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:38.480 That is an amazing case. The facts of that, and then and 89 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:43.480 then the follow up to that, and then you were involved in that legislation. 90 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:47.560 Is that correct? I was because and I'm real active legislatively. I 91 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:51.399 started a group called the Two Way Project, which is fos focused on Second 92 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:56.680 Amendment rights, as you mentioned, my law practice as folks focused on Second 93 00:06:56.720 --> 00:07:00.079 Amendment rights, and so I'm very I've always been very involved legislatively, and 94 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:04.160 I've helped write other bills or have written other bills, and so here I 95 00:07:04.199 --> 00:07:09.759 wrote a self defense bill that laid out what we just described and then took 96 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:13.199 it to some legislators here in Indiana and said, hey, we want to 97 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:15.240 get this thing passed. And I was able to do that in the context 98 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:20.279 of Kisty's story, which made it that much more compelling. And by the 99 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:24.560 way, I mean, I always liked to brag that I wrote this thing 100 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:28.879 and then helped to get it passed. But Kisty came in and testified in 101 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:32.199 both both the House committee that heard the bill and the Senate committee in Indiana, 102 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:39.079 and it wasn't it dry eye in the room because of how compelling her 103 00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:44.480 story was that she really was forced into this to defend a neighbor and a 104 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:48.639 police officer, and then her life basically could have been destroyed by her being 105 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:53.680 sued for millions and millions of dollars, and it was very compelling. So 106 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:57.480 Kisty Phillips is the reason we have that new statute. Well, that's great. 107 00:07:57.639 --> 00:08:01.000 I'm glad to see a happy end to this, and it is a 108 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:03.000 happy ending, and you know, she went through this, but it's going 109 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:07.000 to be something she can be proud of. You know, this there wasn't 110 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:11.279 it wasn't pointless suffering, and it had a good resolution in it. You 111 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:16.120 know, you talk about her particular testimony, it reminds me of years and 112 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:18.839 years ago the Loubiy cafeteria situation. Had a woman who was a dentist and 113 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:22.800 she was there with her parents and she was you know, at the time, 114 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:26.839 she wasn't allowed to carry her firearms, so she left it, and 115 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:30.120 you know, she was worried about the legal invocations of it, so she 116 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:35.320 left it in her glove compartment. Had somebody drive through into the building with 117 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:41.200 his car and gets out, starts shooting people. And her testimony, she 118 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:45.080 later became a legislator, and I remember seeing her testimony many many times, 119 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:50.000 careful testimony of how if she had had her gun, she could have saved 120 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:54.759 her parents, but she was told that she couldn't and that made a big, 121 00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:56.559 big difference. And unfortunately, you know, it was a very tragic 122 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:01.559 situation for her because she lost her parents and a lot of people were killed 123 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:05.519 in that. The good thing in this one is that even though Kissy went 124 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:09.320 through a real ordeal with that, and it is an ordeal whenever you have 125 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:13.120 to use your gun to kill somebody, but it is it is preferable to 126 00:09:13.799 --> 00:09:22.120 seeing your loved ones or friends or someone killed murdered unnecessarily. And so you 127 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:24.480 know, for all the stuff that she went through, it had had a 128 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:26.720 great outcome. That's a super story really well, you know. And and 129 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:33.519 what really hit me hard it meant a lot to me is in one of 130 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:37.000 the committee hearings, I was in the House Judiciary Committee, one of the 131 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:43.039 legislators, seeing that that Kissy was very emotional about this and was obviously putting 132 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:48.039 herself through the trauma again by coming in and testifying publicly about it. When 133 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:54.240 she didn't have to do that. She she could have stayed home and avoided 134 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:58.000 having to relive that whole traumatic situation, including the trauma be ensued where she 135 00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:01.840 was worried about losing her kids who's a single mom. She was worried about 136 00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:05.960 losing her her daughter's college savings funds, and her house. But at any 137 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:09.320 rate, one of the legislators asked her and said, you know what made 138 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:15.639 you come in and speak to us and and and support this bill as you 139 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:20.679 said, you know what, without an immunity bill like this, if these 140 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:24.440 people were able to successfully sue me, for instance, then I'm worried that 141 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:28.679 the next person won't run out their door and save that police officer, or 142 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:33.879 the next person won't, you know, take their take their gun into Libby's 143 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:39.120 and have it available to them to save innocent lives. And I'm I'm worried 144 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:43.000 about the negative effect that a law seat like this has. And I'm willing 145 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:48.200 to put myself through this because I think that we need this law for exactly 146 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:52.360 that reason, and as a deterrent to those lawsuits, so that the lawsuits 147 00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:58.480 aren't a deterrent to law abiding citizens defending themselves or defending other innocent people. 148 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:01.840 And again, I that was incredibly compelling. Oh yeah, yeah. And 149 00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:05.039 of course the insurance company, if they didn't throw her under the bus, 150 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:09.399 they would have thrown everybody else under the bus, even by making some kind 151 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:11.759 of a settlement. You know, that's probably what these people had calculated. 152 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:18.480 She's got deep pockets because of the policy that's there, and you know, 153 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:22.799 that would have established that kind of precedent that you talked about for everybody else 154 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:28.000 and put a lot of people at risk. It would have raised everybody's insurance 155 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:31.720 premiums, because that's why the insurance company doesn't care about that kind of stuff. 156 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:33.279 So yeah, we'll make a settlement with them, and we'll just raise 157 00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:37.720 everybody's premiums. So it helped in so many different ways. It truly is 158 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:43.159 amazing. And that's something the law getting passed is how long ago was this 159 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:48.519 case? She said they waited two years before they came after Kissy was And 160 00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:52.000 then when did this law get put through? Did the law just get passed 161 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:56.759 through recently? Actually the law just the law went into effect twenty nineteen, 162 00:11:56.080 --> 00:12:01.559 Okay, So I guess the event with Kissy was perhaps a little earlier than 163 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:03.879 what I described. But the law was passed in twenty nineteen, and that 164 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:09.600 was a little more than two years after the original incident. And it was 165 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:15.320 kind of neat because we had the NA annual meeting here in Indianapolis that year 166 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:20.919 and our governor, Governor Holcomb actually signed the bill into law from the from 167 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:24.440 the main stage at the NA leadership conference, which was a big event. 168 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:28.559 So it was, it was it was very satisfying. A lot of work 169 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:31.639 went into it, but I was able to be there with kisst when the 170 00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:35.039 governor signed it, and so it was. It was a it was a 171 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:39.039 big event, but it's a it's a it's a really important change, and 172 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:43.399 I'm proud that it happened in Indiana. But one of the reasons I was 173 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:46.080 so enthused about talking to you about it, David, is there's no reason 174 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:50.240 why this shouldn't be the law in all fifty states. Now we know there 175 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:52.120 are blue states out there that would never consider it in a million years. 176 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:58.559 Could they despise our ability to defend ourselves. But for for for the majority 177 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:03.200 of the state in this country, there's no reason why there shouldn't be a 178 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:05.000 similar law out there protecting people. And I'll tell you, I mean, 179 00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:07.720 for instance, I'm I'm not only an instructor, but I'm kind of a 180 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:13.840 training junkie when it when it comes to firearms and self defense. And I 181 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:16.919 go to multiple classes every year, and I bet I've been literally, I 182 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:22.120 bet I've been to three or four dozen k classes where at some point there's 183 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:26.519 a lecture that says and oh by the way, if you use force, 184 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:28.720 even if you're completely justified, you just better count on getting sued. The 185 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:31.039 bad guy is going to suit on. It doesn't matter if he breaks into 186 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:35.000 your house, if he gets hurt, he's going to sue you, or 187 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:37.000 if he gets killed, his family's going to sue you. And I would 188 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:39.919 always sit there listening to that lecture, especially as a lawyer, going well, 189 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:43.799 why is that? Why is that? Okay? You know what, 190 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:46.159 And and let's fix this thing. You know, we got this nail that 191 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:48.919 we've been got, the old sleeping dog has been laying on this nail on 192 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:52.000 the front porch and just too much a problem to get up and do something 193 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:54.840 about it. You know, let's fix this problem exactly. And and and 194 00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:58.240 by the way, Kissy at the time was the seventh person that I had 195 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:05.360 represented who would lawfully and justifiably use force and self defense and either got prosecuted 196 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:07.159 or got sued or both. And I looked at that and said, you 197 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:11.320 know, that's just not okay. I'm not trying to cut into my own 198 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:16.120 business, but I'd rather have citizens have immunity. And that mandatory attorneys fees 199 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:22.320 provision is so important because that's a big deterrent because before that PLANEFF layer, 200 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:24.000 I mean, how many times have you heard the commercial of well, unless 201 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:26.720 I recover for you, you don't have to pay me any attorneys fees, 202 00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:30.840 right, I mean you see that commercial all the time. Well, now 203 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:33.240 they can say, well, you don't have to pay me any money as 204 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:35.639 your lawyer is the planeff's lawyer, unless we recover. But oh, by 205 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:39.120 the way, there's this immunity that we probably can't defeat. And if we 206 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:41.639 can't defeat it, the case is going to get dismissed. And once the 207 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:46.480 case is dismissed, you have to pay all the other side their attorney's fees 208 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:50.639 back. Yeah, after recovering nothing. So it's a huge deterrent and we're 209 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:52.879 really proud of it. That's good. Yeah, people need to look at 210 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:56.159 that. And you know, we see these types of things going around there, 211 00:14:56.360 --> 00:15:00.519 the gun control laws. Some you know California, come up with some 212 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:03.919 idea in New Jersey and they'll start passing that around. But it works the 213 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:07.919 other way as well. You know, we've seen the increase in constitutional carry 214 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:11.720 bills going around and increasing in states, and this is the type of thing 215 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:16.799 that really does need to increase. I've heard all the commercials about you know, 216 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:20.360 well, if you carry concealed, you know you need to join this 217 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:22.279 organization. We've got like an insurance policy here to defend you. But you 218 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:24.679 know, cut it off at the beginning, you know, don't clutter, 219 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:31.600 don't expose anybody to this jeopardy. If it is justifiable and the law enforcement 220 00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:35.919 people realize that it's justifiable, you should not have any legal jeopardy over some 221 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:41.200 kind of a civil action that is being taken over that that really is the 222 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:43.120 right approach. You're correct about, and that's how our statute works. Actually 223 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:46.919 good picking up exactly on your point, David, which is that if there's 224 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:52.080 no criminal prosecution from the use of force where self defense or defense a third 225 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:58.759 person is claimed, that lack of criminal prosecution raises a presumption of justification, 226 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:03.000 which implicates the immunity, and you can use that presumption of justification to get 227 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:07.879 the case thrown out early based on a lack of criminal prosecution. So it 228 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:12.039 really works exactly like you suggested, and that's how we wrote the statute that 229 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:15.440 we've had for a while and here just recently what was really satisfying, I 230 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:21.799 know you've seen this opinion is We were able to use that statute to get 231 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:26.480 a case where I represented two homeowners who defended their home against somebody trying to 232 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:30.080 break in in the middle of the night and then got sued for it. 233 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:33.279 We were able to successfully have that case dismissed here more recently, and that's 234 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:37.240 a compelling story too. Yeah, yeah, have this story. So you 235 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:41.000 were involved in the landmark case that pushed through the legislation that you helped to 236 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:45.440 write. And now you had somebody who decided that they would they felt lucky, 237 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:49.840 so they were against this law even though and you got that shed DOWNE 238 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:53.639 tell us about that particular case. That's the details of that. Sure, 239 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:59.320 that one much more recent. In fact, it's really still pending over a 240 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:03.839 couple of administrative issues. But this is one where two homeowners in Indianapolis. 241 00:17:04.759 --> 00:17:08.519 We're asleep in bed at three o'clock in the morning. The dog starts barking. 242 00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:14.039 They realize someone's pounding on the front door. They ran out, and 243 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:18.559 the man did and someone is kicking on their front door. Then he's putting 244 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:22.279 the full force of his weight and his shoulder into the door, trying to 245 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:25.559 break the door down. He's screaming, let me in let me in. 246 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:30.839 The homeowner yells, I don't know you go away, and the guy outside 247 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:34.640 is cussing a lot and doesn't make a lot of sense, but he runs 248 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:37.799 around to the back of the house, tries to get in the back door. 249 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:44.240 It's locked, thankfully, but then he breaks the window in the next 250 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:47.720 to the back door, and a parent attempt to reach in and unlock the 251 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:51.599 door, and the homeowner at this point has retrieved his handgun and he said, 252 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:56.359 listen, go away, I have a gun, and the guy that 253 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:59.839 responded by saying, well, then you're going to have to shoot me where 254 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:03.559 I won't use it starts with a bee. You know you're gonna have to 255 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:07.680 shoot me, and at which point he tried to gain entry, and the 256 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:11.559 homeowner, having no alternative, shot him. And exactly the same thing in 257 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:15.079 the sense that the prosecutor's office looked at it. The police investigated, all 258 00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:18.559 the physical evidence matched up with what the story the both he told and his 259 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:23.599 wife told. It was a clear case of castle doctrine, where you can 260 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:27.559 defend your home, including with deadly force the way our laws written in Indiana 261 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:33.759 against an unlawful entry, and even to prevent an unlawful entry. You don't 262 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:37.480 have to don't have to be in your house. If they're trying to get 263 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:41.319 in your house, you can prevent that unlawful entry, including with deadly force. 264 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:44.119 And that's the way the law's written, this way it should be written. 265 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:51.279 And we included in our immunity statue we defined as a forcible felony someone 266 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:55.680 trying to break into your home in violation of the castle doctrine committee a crime. 267 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:57.759 A lot of states call it breaking an entry, been breaking and entering. 268 00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:02.039 In Indiana we call it residential entry. But anyway, we said, 269 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:04.240 if you're trying to commit residential entry, that's a forcible felony. And in 270 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:10.880 Indiana, stopping someone from committing a forcible felony is also justified in terms of 271 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:15.240 the use of deadly forced So again, no prosecution. And we raised this 272 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:18.920 new immunity. I put it in my answer to the plaintiff's complaint and said, 273 00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:22.799 you can't file this lawsuit. We have immunity for this, and there's 274 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:26.599 going to be an attorney's fees award. They said, damn the torpedoes. 275 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:29.920 No, no, we think we can defeat it. We think we have 276 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:33.720 evidence that wasn't justified and just a couple of weeks ago, we went in 277 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:38.319 and had a hearing. Hearing Marion County, which is Indianapolis, and just 278 00:19:38.359 --> 00:19:41.200 a matter of days ago got the judge's opinion where he said, Nope, 279 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:45.920 the law is clear. There's immunity under the situation. The presumption that arises 280 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:49.440 from the lack of criminal prosecution could be used to get a case dismissed where 281 00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:55.440 the plaintiff has no affirmative evidence to rebut the presumption that the use of force 282 00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:59.759 was justified. And here they had no had speculation. They said, well, 283 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:02.559 he was just asking to come in. He wasn't trying to break in. 284 00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:03.799 Really, what about the broken window? I mean, it was really 285 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:07.319 kind of silly. But judge, judge, and I give judges a lot 286 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:11.440 of credit because judges don't like to dismiss cases early. If you look at 287 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:17.319 when judges get reversed on appeal h grant, you know, dismissing cases early 288 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:21.359 is fertile ground for getting that reverse. Not here because it's very very clear 289 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:26.400 cut. But generally speaking, judges are reluctant to grant summary judgment or motions 290 00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:30.559 to dismiss, and this judge had had the fortitude to do just that, 291 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:36.440 and said the laws also clear that the planiffs have to pay the defendants back 292 00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:40.079 their attorneys fees, and so asked me to submit my final statement on my 293 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:44.680 fee, which the Cortal review, and then they're going to award attorney's fees. 294 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:48.559 So my client doesn't have to worry about paying me any money because they're 295 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:52.079 going to get that paid from the planet. Uh. And you deserve it. 296 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:55.200 You've done a great job. You defended that other person. You got 297 00:20:55.680 --> 00:21:00.039 a law run through there, and that law has held up now and that's, 298 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:03.599 you know, for a second time, you defended some of course you 299 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:07.400 said you defended a lot of people like that, but that's exactly what we 300 00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:11.400 should see with that. Let me and of course I didn't mention the beginning 301 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:14.599 of the program. You've also got a radio program size being a NRA instructor 302 00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:18.440 and besides having a law firm that specialized in the Second Amendment. Guy Ralford 303 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:21.599 R E. L F O R D. I who want to find him 304 00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:26.559 on Facebook if you need his help? But you also have a radio program, 305 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:30.799 the gun Guy. I love the title that. Yeah, yeah, 306 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:33.240 yeah, again the radio station likes making use of my odd name, but 307 00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:37.920 yeah, but yeah, it's just a weekly show, David. It's just 308 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:42.279 on Saturdays in Indianapolis. But they also put it out there as a as 309 00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:48.200 a podcast as well, so a lot of people who can't listen in live 310 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:52.359 from five to seven in central Indiana. We reach I think fifty two counties, 311 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:57.359 so it's a it's a good sized radio station. But people who can't 312 00:21:57.400 --> 00:22:02.640 listen in can go to WIB dot com and find the podcast as well. 313 00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:06.079 And we just talked about Second Amendment issues and it's it's kind of fun because 314 00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:07.599 it's a call in show for the whole two hours. Yeah, I'm on 315 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.519 the air, and that's my favorite. My actually, my very favorite is 316 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:15.480 when people call in and want to argue with me because I do this for 317 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:21.079 a living, right, But but it's it's a lot of fun. And 318 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:23.880 but you know, people call in with everything under the sun, from legal 319 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:27.640 questions. I don't give legal advice on the radio, but I can explain 320 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:33.240 what the laws say, and too technical questions, gun questions, you know, 321 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:36.079 I mean, how do I fix this problem with my trigger on AR 322 00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:38.000 fifteen. I'm just it's really interesting. I never know what I'm going to 323 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:41.039 get, which really makes it it's fun for me to do. Of course, 324 00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:45.440 I always have somewhat of an agenda in terms of what I want to 325 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:48.319 get into, but the listeners often take us in different directions based on the 326 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:51.519 calls we get, which make it makes it a lot of fun. I 327 00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:53.599 bet it's fun, especially when somebody calls in they want argument. That when 328 00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:56.039 you said where is that? That that made me think of the old Monty 329 00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:00.279 Python skit, you know, because you want an argument. Okay starts arguing 330 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:03.799 about whether he's going to do an argument with him or not. But you've 331 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:07.480 got more substantial arguments to talk about. Let me ask you this because we've 332 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:10.960 had some interesting things. As you point out, it brings up a lot 333 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:15.720 of different interesting points of law, and we've had an interesting back and forth. 334 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:22.240 I talked about last week about the fact that Trump went to South Carolina 335 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:26.920 and they had a commemorative gun that had his face on the handle, and 336 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:29.799 it's like, oh, yeah, I got to get one of these and 337 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:32.279 everything, and then his assistant said, yeah, he bought it. And 338 00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:33.680 then he had all these people say, wait a minute, he's indicted for 339 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:37.799 a fella, he can't buy a gun, which is very similar. As 340 00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:41.160 Reason pointed out, it was exactly the same type of thing that they're coming 341 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:44.839 after Hunter Biden. You know, they're saying, well, you know, 342 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:48.559 you're not allowed to buy a gun if you're a drug addict or drug user 343 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:51.960 or whatever. You know, both of these things are non violent issues. 344 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.720 You know, Trump hasn't been convicted of anything. He's just been indicted for 345 00:23:55.799 --> 00:24:00.240 something, indicted for something that is not a violent crime even and so you 346 00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:02.920 know, they were looking at this and they said, you know, we 347 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:06.480 need to look at these laws and not be so colored. You know, 348 00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:10.039 you've got people who were cheering the fact that maybe we got another thing on 349 00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:11.640 Trump here, or other people saying, yeah, let's get Biden on this 350 00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:15.759 thing. But you know, maybe the law itself is a thing that needs 351 00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:19.039 to be changed as to whether or not the ATF has it. And then 352 00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:25.920 I saw another issue where they said, it looks like a Hunter may wind 353 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:30.480 up trying to use Bruin and that decision to say, you know, this 354 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:34.039 is an unusual restriction that's been put here that is not doesn't really have doesn't 355 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:37.880 fit in the historical context of what was meant by the Second Amendment, And 356 00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:41.240 so according to Bruin, maybe you know, he gets off he still has 357 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:47.440 an issue I would imagine of lying on a form. But nevertheless, you 358 00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:49.799 know, what do you make of that of those two juxtapositions. It's an 359 00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:56.200 interesting juxtaposition of those two that you might have actually the Biden family supporting the 360 00:24:56.279 --> 00:25:04.640 Second Amendment and some freedoms involved there war and litigation maker strange bedfellows and but 361 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:07.519 yeah, I mean, if anybody would have ever asked me I would support 362 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:12.440 a legal argument that Hunter Biden was making, I would have doubted it. 363 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:18.319 But but here your wise, and you're dead on David to focus on the 364 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:23.440 Brewin decision, because both in the Trump scenario and the Hunter Biden scenario, 365 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:26.240 that that's exactly where they're going. In fact, the exact law that you 366 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:33.160 mentioned relative to Hunter Biden was recently found to be unconstitutional. Is is it 367 00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:36.960 a district court case in Texas? So it has no direct bearing on his 368 00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:42.839 case. But I can see that it really snowballing because you know, as 369 00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:45.599 you said, and as you know, you know, Bruin says, look, 370 00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:49.000 we look at text history and tradition, and we look at the text 371 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:53.440 the Second Amendment. Does this does this law implicate a protected writer? Not? 372 00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:56.640 If it does, then we say, all right, does the long 373 00:25:56.920 --> 00:26:03.680 history and tradition of the regulation of this right support this particular limitation in the 374 00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:07.200 sense that it's been upheld and it's been found to be legal and allowable under 375 00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:11.960 the Second Amendment historically and traditionally in this country. And that's going back to 376 00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:15.680 the founding. That's not since the Brady Bill in nineteen ninety four. I 377 00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:18.440 mean, that's all very very you know, recent stuff. It's all you 378 00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:22.920 know, going back to the founding and even un degree looking at English law 379 00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:26.000 that US law is based on, and in this case, that found the 380 00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:30.799 law that says, if you're a user of or addicted to in the illegal 381 00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:34.880 drugs, you can't possess a firearm and make it a felony to do so. 382 00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:38.400 This court in Texans looked at that and said, hold on, we 383 00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:45.039 can find historical restrictions on saying someone can't possess a firearm if they're currently intoxicated 384 00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:49.079 or you know, inebriated, impaired, But we don't see anywhere just the 385 00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:53.319 occasional user and important distinction. That was a case where this guy was an 386 00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:59.119 occasional marijuana user and he admitted to authorities he yeah, he said, you 387 00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:00.880 know, I'm a recreation marijuana user. I said, oh well, and 388 00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:06.039 marijuana is still illegal at the federal level through the Controlled Substances Act in nineteen 389 00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:11.440 seventy, So therefore it's illegal under federal law. Therefore, you've admitted you're 390 00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:15.000 a user of or addicted to an illegal drug. Therefore you're going to prison 391 00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:18.039 for ten years or at least a maximum. And that's what they found to 392 00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:22.839 be unconstitutional under the Bruin analysis. But the very similar thing, and in 393 00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:26.799 fact, Amy Cony Barrett now on the Supreme Court wrote an opinion that said 394 00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:30.480 just this. It was a descent, but it was at the Seventh Circuit. 395 00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:37.920 They said laws saying even people convicted of nonviolent felonies should not lose their 396 00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:41.519 rights. And the law that says that if you have any felony conviction, 397 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:45.400 even a non violent one, I mean you could have a get a you 398 00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:52.279 know, an accounting conviction based on tax fraud or something, and suddenly you're 399 00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:57.519 being likened to a violent criminal. We can't trust with a firearm. And 400 00:27:57.559 --> 00:28:03.279 Amy Cody Barrett wrote a opinion before We're Ruined, obviously that said this is 401 00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:07.920 unconstitutional. There's no history and tradition of limiting nonviolent people just because of a 402 00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:11.839 criminal conviction, and then compound that and say, well, here Trump hasn't 403 00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:15.440 even been convicted of a non violent felony. He's only been indicted. Yeah, 404 00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:18.000 so the law that says if you're just under an indictment for a felony, 405 00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:22.839 even a non violent felony. So to say that's unconstitutional under a Bruin 406 00:28:22.839 --> 00:28:26.720 analysis is not a stretch because we're seeing we were seeing these different laws, 407 00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:29.720 a lot of these very recent laws, a lot of them part of the 408 00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:33.119 Brady Bill, some of them part of the Gun Control Act in nineteen sixty 409 00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:36.920 eight. But a lot of these are following one after the other. And 410 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:41.519 I'm somewhat expecting the pendulum to swing back because, for instance, there's a 411 00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:48.640 there's a case in front of the Supreme Court right now that involves the law 412 00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:52.559 that says if you are under a domestic violence order of protection, you can't 413 00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:56.759 possess a firearm, and that that doesn't mean you've been convicted of a cron 414 00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:00.480 That doesn't mean you you know, you've been it's been proven that you are, 415 00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:06.200 you know, a violent person based on your criminal history. Is just 416 00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:08.160 a judge found enough of a threat to say you ought to be under this 417 00:29:08.200 --> 00:29:12.519 domestic violence order protection. The Fifth Circuit again, another case coming out of 418 00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:17.000 Texas found that law to be unconstitutional, to say, wait a minute, 419 00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:21.079 there's no criminal conviction here, there's a there's a potential threat, but we 420 00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:23.720 don't take people's constitutional rights away on that basis, at least not historically and 421 00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:30.119 traditionally under the Bruin analysis that is in front of the Supreme Court right now. 422 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:33.400 And and and it doesn't feel very good, I will tell you, 423 00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:37.119 because you think they might take the gun and do the due process later, 424 00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:45.359 as Trump said. But this one had had been in multiple domestic violence. 425 00:29:45.400 --> 00:29:52.319 This particular litigant had been under mutual domestic violence order protection involving multiple women. 426 00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:56.960 And and he does appear to have somewhat of a criminal history. Now there's 427 00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:00.880 a reason that blindfold is on Lady justice, right, And the judges aren't 428 00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:07.039 supposed to look at the facts of any individual case and be influenced by that. 429 00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:11.880 They're supposed to do a strict legal analysis under the concept that justice is 430 00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:17.759 blind. But I think anybody who wouldn't think that these particular facts wouldn't leave 431 00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:21.960 the Supreme court to go, well, maybe we had to roll this back 432 00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:25.279 just a bit. I think it's probably being a little naive because there's no 433 00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:30.519 old saying among lawyers that bad facts make for bad law, and these facts 434 00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:33.559 are not great. It's not the case I would have wanted to have taken 435 00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:37.640 up on that issue. But anyway, but based on the analysis is out 436 00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:41.839 there right now and based on Bruin as it exists, these laws. You 437 00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:45.559 know the fact that a eighteen to twenty year old can't buy a handgun in 438 00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:49.720 a gun store under federal law. What's the history and tradition of having to 439 00:30:49.720 --> 00:30:53.920 be twenty one to be armed in this country when if you've joined the militia 440 00:30:55.079 --> 00:31:02.359 quote unquote in seventeen ninety one, at seventeen or six. So there's there's 441 00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:04.240 a lot to talk about for a lot of these laws where we get drafted 442 00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:07.720 in modern America at eighteen and sent to Vietnam. Right, but you can't 443 00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:11.400 buy a gun, and you know, that's the kind of stuff that you 444 00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:14.400 know, we see and of course you know that was even you know when 445 00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:15.480 I mentioned, you know, take the gun and do the due process later 446 00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:18.559 with the red flag stuff and everything. At that same meeting. You know, 447 00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:22.079 Trump was pushing the idea of let's raise the age that people can buy 448 00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:26.079 guns. It's kind of interesting because this whole Brewin thing, I think it's 449 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:30.960 gonna you know, hit a lot of these different issues again, like the 450 00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:33.440 bump stock for example. You know what's Brewing going to do to the bump 451 00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:40.519 stock. We've seen a surprising number of losses in terms of the challenges against 452 00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:42.400 the bump stock. And to me, that was a very, very big 453 00:31:42.440 --> 00:31:48.960 precedent because it established the fact that not only could they infringe against our constitutional 454 00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:55.240 you know, protections of a god given right, but they could also it 455 00:31:55.279 --> 00:31:57.359 could be done not just by the legislature, but it could be done by 456 00:31:57.480 --> 00:32:01.160 the bureaucracy or by a press that's running the bureaucracy. And now we've seen 457 00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:04.960 you know, Biden exercising that as well. And so when you go back 458 00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:06.960 here, look at the bump stock thing, we got this I think it's 459 00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:09.000 a Fifth Circuit talked about it just last couple of days. Yeah, the 460 00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:13.839 Fifth Circuit court where you got i know, a Michael Cargill back at the 461 00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:16.519 Central Texas Gun Works who's running that through. He's had a victory there, 462 00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:20.640 but there's been losses on the other side of this with a lot of other 463 00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:22.640 courts. What do you think is going to happen with that bump stock because 464 00:32:22.680 --> 00:32:27.960 that is a big precedent. You know, we've never had regulation of attachments 465 00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:31.880 and things like that before, especially by executive order. Yeah, it's such 466 00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:36.960 an important point, David. I'm glad you raised it because I said when 467 00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:39.240 it happened, you know Trump, you remember the news conference he said, 468 00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:44.200 well, bump stocks are gone, right, Tady's responding to the horrific shooting 469 00:32:44.200 --> 00:32:45.640 in Las Vegas, and he said that, well, he said, I 470 00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:49.319 can do that. I don't need to have any guy with It's like, 471 00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:52.240 well, that's exactly that's exactly right. And and so many people on on 472 00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:57.039 you know, our side of the Second Amendment debate said well, you know 473 00:32:57.079 --> 00:32:59.880 what, if we give them bump stocks, then maybe they won't come after 474 00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:05.119 or so called assault weapons semi automatic rifles, and so nobody really cares about 475 00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:07.480 bump stocks anyway. So, uh, you know, and even the NRA 476 00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:12.400 came out and I strongly disagreed with the NRA on this, and I said, 477 00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:15.799 this publicly huge mistake. NRA came out and said we invite the ATF 478 00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:20.960 to re examine the legality of bump stocks. And I'm saying, I'm sorry, 479 00:33:21.079 --> 00:33:25.359 you're inviting the ATF to rewrite laws written by Congress and and and simply 480 00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:29.720 because the president tells them to do so doesn't make it legal or constitutional. 481 00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:34.079 It's a it's a it's an inappropriate use of the legislative power by an executive 482 00:33:34.119 --> 00:33:37.039 agency. And that's what we need to reel back in this country. But 483 00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:37.920 but when Trump did it, and people say, well, guy, do 484 00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:40.799 you really care about bumstocks? I now, bumstocks are stupid. If you 485 00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:44.440 come to my range where I'm teaching a class and you get a bumpstock on 486 00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:46.000 your rifle, I'm gonna make fun of you, even you know, before 487 00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:50.559 the band, because you're trading. You're trading accuracy for rate of fire, 488 00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:53.480 which is typically stupid. So at any rate, I didn't care about bumpstock. 489 00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:57.599 Bumstocks are dumb. I would never own one. But the precedent, 490 00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:00.079 and that's why the point you made is the important one. The precedent he 491 00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:02.599 made by saying I'm going to snap my finger. Well, what did Obama 492 00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:06.200 say? I got a phone and a pen? Yeah, Well, he 493 00:34:06.279 --> 00:34:09.199 never much delivered on that, but President Trump did and then and then, 494 00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:13.760 now what do you see in ATF on so called ghost guns, atf on 495 00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:21.360 what they're calling for streset triggers, ATF on short barreled rifles. They're saying, 496 00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:22.960 oh, well, we told you ten years ago that if you put 497 00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:25.880 a brace on your pistol, it doesn't make it a rifle. But we 498 00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:30.559 changed our mind. So now we're going to rewrite a definition of short barreled 499 00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:36.079 rifle as written by Congress and all that's based on the bumpstock precedent. And 500 00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:38.440 now I think we have a great shot at destroying a lot of these, 501 00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:45.159 not only under the Bruin analysis, but because they are in fact unconstitutional in 502 00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:52.000 the fact that their legislative authority being exercised by the executive branch. And we 503 00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:53.880 even had an important decision that had nothing to do with guns at the Second 504 00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:57.119 Amendment came out of Supreme Court here a couple of years ago. It was 505 00:34:57.119 --> 00:35:00.880 a West Virginia and it was an EPA regulation case. I think it was 506 00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:04.360 a clean water or clean air case. I don't remember now, but they 507 00:35:04.360 --> 00:35:07.079 said, hold on, you know, the EPA just going out there and 508 00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:12.320 making up its own rules without an express delegation of authority from Congress doesn't doesn't 509 00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:16.039 fly anymore. We're reeling back on that fourth branch of government that's become so 510 00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:21.079 danger in this country, so dangerous in this country that our founders never intended 511 00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:23.440 for, you know, for the I r S and the ATF and all 512 00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:28.360 these executive agencies to be able to have the power they do, and a 513 00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.360 bunch of armed agents turning around putting people in prison. That's not what we 514 00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:39.199 ever envisioned from in terms of enforcing rules that they've written and that they've created 515 00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:44.639 without Congress. That's what was never intended by our founders. And so hopefully 516 00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:46.760 we get that reeled back, and ATF is fertile ground for that right now, 517 00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:51.840 for all the reasons you mentioned. Yeah, that really it just I 518 00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:53.880 couldn't believe when that happened, because I've talked for the longest time about the 519 00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:59.320 power of the gureacracy of the regulatory state. I said, you know, 520 00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:06.119 we had the slogan for seventeen seventy six was no taxation without representation. Well 521 00:36:06.119 --> 00:36:08.679 we have now taxation without representation because these people can find us. But we 522 00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:13.840 also have regulation without representation and what's even worse is they say, well, 523 00:36:13.880 --> 00:36:17.000 because this is a rule and not a law, you don't get due process, 524 00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:20.960 you're going to get the presumption of innocence, and you don't get protection 525 00:36:21.039 --> 00:36:24.039 against excessive fines. And so we've seen this metastasize. You know, originally 526 00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:27.800 I think it was the IRS that was doing it predominantly, but now it's 527 00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:30.320 metastasized all these different agencies, and so now they're going to just do gun 528 00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:35.239 control by doing that as well, that's a really, really dangerous thing. 529 00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:37.679 And it was. It was not just the bump stock, it was also 530 00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:42.159 the pistol brace under Trump, and they got put in in twenty nineteen, 531 00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:45.559 and then they pulled it out in December of twenty twenty. But then Biden 532 00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:49.519 puts it back in La La Harris when she's running, said yeah, I'm 533 00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:52.679 going to give Congress hundred days to do all the gun control stuff I want 534 00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:55.320 if you elect me as president, and then I'll just do it by executive 535 00:36:55.400 --> 00:36:59.599 order if they don't do it at that point. It really is a horrific 536 00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:02.039 thing, and it is a much bigger problem than even just a second Amendment 537 00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:06.519 to try to get this regulatory state under control. So it'd be interesting to 538 00:37:06.519 --> 00:37:09.920 see what happens with the Supreme Court decisions on this. And again, I 539 00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:15.280 think the bump stock issue is such an important thing. Even though the bump 540 00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:17.360 stock itself, as you point out, its total piece of garbage. You 541 00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:21.719 know, everybody says it's based of garbage, but it's an important principle, 542 00:37:21.800 --> 00:37:24.920 and that's the key thing. The principle is so important even if the item 543 00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:30.440 isn't so well. It's always great talking to you guy. And again people 544 00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:34.480 can find a gun guy and they can find that at what's the call letters 545 00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:37.920 for the radio station again where they can find that poost WIBC. Yeah, 546 00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:42.800 you can find me at WIBC dot com or my Twitter or x I guess 547 00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:45.159 we're calling it now? Is just a guy Ralford? Great, great, 548 00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:47.760 Thank you very much guy. Always a pleasure to talk to you and thank 549 00:37:47.800 --> 00:37:52.760 you for what you've done. And that's a great example that you got there 550 00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:55.400 and other states do need to implement that. That is an important law to 551 00:37:55.480 --> 00:38:00.360 protect people who are doing what they can to protect themselves and protect to other 552 00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:02.159 innocent people at the same time. Thank you so much. Thank you, 553 00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:20.440 David. Always an honor the common man. They created common core and dumbed 554 00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:23.960 down our children. They created common past to track and control us. They're 555 00:38:24.039 --> 00:38:31.760 Commons project to make sure the commoners own nothing and the communist future. They 556 00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:37.400 see the common man as simple, unsophisticated ordinary. But each of us has 557 00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:44.840 worth and dignity created in the image of God. That is what we have 558 00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:49.239 in common. That is what they want to take away. Their most powerful 559 00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:54.880 weapons are isolation, deception, intimidation. They desire to know everything about us, 560 00:38:55.000 --> 00:39:00.880 while they hide everything from us. It's time to turn that around and 561 00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:06.239 expose what they want to hide. Please share the information and links you'll find 562 00:39:06.519 --> 00:39:09.840 at the Davidnightshow dot com. Thank you for listening, Thank you for sharing. 563 00:39:15.639 --> 00:39:19.639 If you can't support us financially, please keep us in your prayers. 564 00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:42.800 Ddavidnightshow dot com