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Habit or something. But no,
he's not one to one Atomas. But

2
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he yeah, right, Schoore says
he's anomalous. Right, he upholds William

3
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ol Bachman's position that there's only a
simply lawgical distinction between them. Right.

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No, I believe I agree with
Bradshaw's argument that, for example, kada

5
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anoia, it can be an only
a conceptual distinction, or a conceptual distinction

6
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that's also in the object or in
the thing, So it can be both,

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it could be either one, right, Okay, So you would think

8
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that generally speaking, a real distinction
is simply improper terminoledge. Again, I

9
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said at the very beginning, like
Bradshaw says, it's confusing and not helpful

10
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to use the terminology of late Scholasticism
for people that are writing way before that.

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And so the easiest way to solve
this problem with like a Scotis or

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something like that would be to say, well, what are we participating in?

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If it's not the essence of God, then it has to be some

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real uncreated energy, right right?
But okay, okay, so why are

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you even arguing with me like what's
the right because the thing is you've already

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conceived that the terminology itself is wrong. When you talked with doctor David not

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Bashel what was his name, Bo
Branson has my bed, you said that

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the essence and energies are really distinct
and any persons. Yeah, and when

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I explain what, when I explain
what's real, I give the meaning of

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that, right, And then I
asked you before, what was your meaning

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of it? And I said again
for the third time, the level of

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distinction between essence and energy is the
same level of distinction between the persons.

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So let's talk about termism as an
example. So that's that's not a definition,

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that's an example. There is no
definition that if we don't use that

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terminology for the distinction you apply with
to things. I don't have to have

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a definition because I'm not a scholastic. Scholastics have to define everything. Lastly,

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is to have definitions of distinctions.
Would you say Schalorous was wrong then

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in his sixth tone, No,
I don't have any problem with him trying

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to work out these distinctions. But
I don't think what he's arguing disagrees because

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when you laid out what it was, he meant a distinction that entails composition

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or to bit and you know,
at the very beginning of this discussion,

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I said that distinction does not entail
composition or division, and it's the analogy

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that even Palamos uses is between the
persons. Sure right, However, were

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right the problems terminology which you conceded
is incorrect, which you conceded you have

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no definition for. And then when
Scoloris, our saint by the way,

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outright defines these terms for us so
that we can apply them in our contry,

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Yeah, about what you defined was
then arbitrarily, No, it's not

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arbitrary, But it's not arbitrary.
You're just because you don't even have a

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definition for the term that you're using, because I don't necessarily will have to

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use that terminology, like Bradshaw says, why do I have to? Okay,

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why does Bradshaw the scholar have more
precedent Overscalorius's definition was a saint and

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at dogmatic tomes Well, again,
what you said from scolarious is not a

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problem for what I argued, Right, So if we understand who are saints

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who define the term as this and
that, why then you equivocate the term

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into something completely arbitrary which you have
no definition for. It's not arbitrary.

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00:03:02,719 --> 00:03:07,240
It's it's not arbitrary. It is
the distinction between the person's mean I'm saying

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there is there is no scholastic definition
of what a difference between the person and

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another person is other than say that
they're really distinct, like that they're relatively

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opposed, right, because scholastics will
tell you they have numerous So wait a

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minute, are you so now you're
a scholastic. No, I'm telling the

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scholastic position to you because you appeal
to the scholastic position when you said,

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well, there's no proper definition for
why would we expect that the cap so

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do the cop of doitions use scholastic
definitions? Okay, so why do?

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I could wait? So, could
we understand those those dogmatic teachings before the

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scholastic definitions? Sure? Right,
But then when we come to modern day

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language, they never spoken English,
then why are we speaking English? We

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can use that's an irrelevant argument to
what we're talking about. Well, we

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can use linguistics in terminology later on
that's developed. Yeah, I don't have

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a problem with that and not and
nothing that was nothing, that was nothing

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that was stated. If you agree
with the position that we really participate in

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uncreated energies. I don't even understand
what your problem is with what I'm working.

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Saying that saying it's a real distinction
is improper term, which we're rejected

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by our saints, and even Fino
says it's simply a notional distinction. Is

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an entire chapter on that. Well, he argues that the terminology is ambiguous.

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Right, Yeah, we're regarding conceptual. But if you also read his

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analysis on the tomes, he simply
says that it's been softened, the distinction.

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It's softened, right, and that
there's a basis in the object or

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the thing itself, but that we
can't say it's a real distinction. And

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this is what he says later on
what are divine energies? Right? So

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you said, so you so wait, you think that that you think the

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energies aren't really distinct from the essence. I wouldn't say they're not really distinct,

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No, when I haven't seen a
single proper citation of that, especially

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with cool the Palm. I sooner
i'd say that, I would say,

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by the way, that the problem
might send a Trump's uh scolaris you know

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he had a tone schoolers had his
dogmatics in on as will. Yeah,

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but let's talk. Let's let me
just prove it to you, just from

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straight up theological argumentation. How's that? No? No, because if I'm

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gonna prove it, I'm gonna prove
it. It uses the word lokismo,

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which means by reason alone. How
do you understand that? Yeah, because

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in that discussion, I know what
you're talking about in the penos section.

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So let me show you that you. Let me show you the argument the

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problem with that. No, I'm
just asking how do you understand. I'm

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going to show you that the problem
with that? Sure so is uncreated glory

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only conceptually distinguished from the action of
creating. Oh, we can say that

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sure so, it's not really distinct. So there's not a real distinction between

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God. Okay, then creation is
in reality eternal. Oh, that wouldn't

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follow because creation is an effect,
right, and causing effects the action of

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creating. Not creation has an effect
the action. Right. But then if

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we retake Confino's second book, right, he simply says that God is eternally

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active as an inward operation. Right, he doesn't need it. No,

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I'm talking about that creation is not
creation, the act of creating is not

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an inward action. Yes, it
is, if you retake Confino's book on

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it. He says that exact same
thing. I can quote, I can

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quote you right now. Well I
don't. I mean, maybe Peter,

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I don't have a problem saying he
might be wrong. So you think that

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the action of creating is so would
you did God? Did God rest?

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And yeah? The principal hold on
the Confessor says God is an eternally active

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creator. I agree with that,
But that doesn't mean no, no,

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no, that's the distinction. That's
the distinction between first and second actuality.

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Would you say God is first sexuality
and then he moves on a second actuality.

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No, the action of creating is
not. That's a power that he

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has that he doesn't have to actualize. So he's eternally creator in the sense

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of having that power. That does
not mean that does not mean to actualization.

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It's in first act. What in
relation to it being actually actualized?

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It's in first act. So you're
saying God has always actualized creation. Oh,

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not outwardly, no, but it's
simply an inward manifestation of his being.

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So so, so God has always
creations. God has always created within

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his being. Yeah, sure,
as an inward expression of his being created

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within his being. Sure, just
as a priest is not need to be

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serving divine liturgy to be a priest. So that's a power that's not yet

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actualized. That's the point. Did
he rest from creating? Right? But

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just because it's not outwardly expressed doesn't
mean he's eternally not eternally acting agreed,

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but he's not eternally active in the
power of creating. Sure, because the

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power of creating is external, and
that's act exactly, So did he did

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he? So? Then did he
rest from creating? Sure? As in

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the manifestation is the manifestation of self
eternal? I wouldn't say so. No,

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it begins exactly, you know.
Yeah, So there's a distinction between

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eternal glory and the action of creating. Sure, we can say there's a

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virtual distinction between the No, it's
a real distinction. It's not virtual because

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if it's only virtual being the energies
themselves. We can say there's a virtual

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distinction. So the action of divine
knowledge is equated to eternal glory. Sure,

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you can say that they're virtually distinct
and reality. Sure you can equate

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them together. Well, the peallem
I sin, I'd say they're different realities.

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Reality is the improper term, right, How could it's the terminology that

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they are. How could how could? How could there be an equating between

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say, divine providence and eternal glory. Well, there's not an equating here

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because you said they're only conceptual.
But you said they're only conceptually distinct.

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Right. Conception of this think destroys
formal identity. So when you're saying equating

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here, you're you're misinterpreting that because
equating here refers to formal identity. They're

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different formal identities. But we can
say they're the same material reality. So

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it doesn't get us anywhere because it's
the same thing. Sure in reality is

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the same thing. Would you say
you have numerous the is the is in

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Leviticus nine? Is that an eternal
manifestation Reveticus nine? Would you just read

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the entire verse from here? Moses
and Aaron went into the tabernacle at the

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meeting, and they came out blessed
the people. The glory of the Lord

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appeared to all the people, and
fire came down from before the Lord and

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consumed the burnt offering. And the
fat on the altar. When the people

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saw it, they shouted and fell
in their faces. Does this theophany come

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and go? Sure, we can
say theophanies come and go? Was the

140
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manifestation of that theophany itself God himself? Sure we can say that. So

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it was an energy in space and
time? Sure, because it's manifested.

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Right, But the energy and power
itself is not beginning. Yeah, But

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here's the problem. Here's the problem
with here's a problem in here's the problem

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in Pino's point here, which is
that it kicks the can down the road

145
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and moves the problem back and stuff. Is the manifest itself fully God?

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Oh? Sure? Yes? So
did God come and go in time and

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space? No? Right, because
the manifestation itself you just said, the

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manifestation itself is God is divine?
Yes, because it's relation to that,

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because it's related to God. Oh, it's related to God. Is it

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really? Fully God? Sure?
Did it come and go in time and

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space? No? Because it's so
it didn't come and go? So yeah,

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exactly. So here's the problem the
appearance that came in time. But

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the appearance is God, as you
just said, not really, Now,

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it's not God. So the glory
of God. So the glory of God

155
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appeared, but it's not really God
fully God. But the appearance of that

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energy, the appearance is the energy. It's that they often, it's that

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they So you would say it's that
the often, isn't it? But you

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00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,559
could? Would you see the energy
physically? What does it say in the

159
00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,440
text that I just read to you, all of Israel saw the glory of

160
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the Lord and they fell down,
right, But that I can simply say

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that's the creative man If there is
no creative manifestation of the Theophanes, no,

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00:11:03,279 --> 00:11:07,159
there's not. Theophanies are not creatures. Theophanies are not creatures. You

163
00:11:07,279 --> 00:11:11,200
just got exposed. Theophanies are not
creatures. No, they're not. This

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00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:15,360
is not this is the glory cloud. It's not a creature. You can

165
00:11:15,399 --> 00:11:16,879
see. You can say the glory
cloud isn't a creature. But you need

166
00:11:16,919 --> 00:11:22,200
to justify that all patristics, right, because it's called the glory of God.

167
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It is the glory of God a
creature. So now you're a Muslim,

168
00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:31,039
right, But I can simply say
that the appearance, the manifestation you

169
00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,679
already said is God. You just
contradicted yourself. The appearance is the manifestation.

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00:11:35,799 --> 00:11:39,519
You just contradicted yourself. I can
say the appearance of the energy is

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a creator. No it's not.
It's a theophany. Now you're a Roman

172
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Catholic. No, everybody knows it
is. That's the author. So you're

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not actually Orthodox, are you?
So he's not Orthodox? See that?

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00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:56,679
So this is what Roman Catholics do. They mind the Orthodox stuff to come

175
00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:01,120
and try to argue Scodism. And
then when we go to the actual passages,

176
00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:03,600
you heard him melt down. Look
at all that. So that was

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00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,960
all a bunch of sophistry, Just
like with the Thomas earlier, here's a

178
00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,519
bunch of fancy citations. What about
the formal distinctions? What did he just

179
00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:16,320
say about the theophany? There he
went from saying it's really God, it's

180
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really a manifestation, but it's a
creature. The glory cloud is not a

181
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creature. You can't worship creatures.
They fall down and worship the theophany.

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So what is scholasticism? Sophistry?
So notice his whole journey there was to

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00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:46,080
try to trap me, and he
admits all the things that sound correct,

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and then when the rubber meets the
road with the theophany. Theophanies are creatures.

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You notice he said it's God,
and then he said it's a creature.

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00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:03,559
And he doesn't even know that the
glory cloud is the Chicaina. It's

187
00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,559
not an angel, it's not a
creature. It's called the glory of God.

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00:13:07,879 --> 00:13:11,200
God says he does not give his
glory to creatures or to anyone else.

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00:13:11,879 --> 00:13:31,279
So what a bunch of scumbags?
Mark? So yeah, that's that

190
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was a uniate trying to trap us
so anything. What I'm noticing is that

191
00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,879
the same way to refute all of
these goobers is the same way that you

192
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:50,240
refute a Muslim. Mark. I
think you have a great argument too.

193
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,919
It cuts through all the sophistry to
ask what do we participating in it?

194
00:13:54,399 --> 00:13:56,600
Yeah, that's what Palomus does,
and that's why he didn't want to go

195
00:13:56,639 --> 00:14:07,840
there. And also Scolaris has to
submit to the pew of my synods,

196
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:13,279
So I don't know why we'd put
Yeah, I mean they don't like arguments

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00:14:13,279 --> 00:14:18,039
from Bradshaw, and then they'll be
like, well Pino says against Bradshaw,

198
00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:22,559
and I'm like, well, I
mean all these people are fallible and you

199
00:14:22,639 --> 00:14:28,679
notice when he gave the definition from
scolarios, it was if you mean distinction

200
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:35,159
entailing composition or division. Yeah.
So, and you notice the push for

201
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,919
the schotis and stuff that keys you
off that he's a Uni eight. So

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this is all the same circles of
you know who. And by the way

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you were talking about you don't have
to provide a scholastic definition. Again,

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there's many different types of definitions that
you can go go with, genus,

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species, essential definitions. Some of
the things are defined ostensibly or as we

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see in The Fathers too, that
it is there's a real distinction, doesn't

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imply that you have to provide a
scholastic definition of what that is to know

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that that Christ is truly present and
I don't have to bring in substance and

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accidents and stuff to define that.
And so I think something similar is going

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00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:41,720
here. Why are we being pushed
into having to provide a later form way

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of thinking of scholastic definitions on something
that's been revealed and is binding through synods.

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That's why they don't want to go
to the text, just like the

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other guy didn't want to go to
the text. And by the way,

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people in the chat are saying,
well, isn't it true that the Theophanes

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are create creatures? No, they're
not. There's no creation involved in the

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Theophanes, because you can't worship creatures. God says, he doesn't give his

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glory to another. I did a
whole three hour talk on all of the

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Theophanes in the Torah, and the
root of all this I'm now seeing is

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that these people are actually divorced from
divine revelation. That's why they want to

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argue the philosophical presuppositions and not what's
actually in divine revelation. That's why he

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says, Oh, the Theophanes are
full of God, but they're creatures.

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You can't worship creatures, and God's
glory is not a creature. The Theophanes

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are identified as God's glory, not
just in this passage. I did three

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hours of talks on Theophanes, but
they don't know the scriptures Nectarios. When

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Moses goes up on the mountain and
it's said that the goodnesses of God,

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it's plural. The goodness of God
will pass by Moses, right, It's

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a real plurality of energies. And
that event comes and goes. There's no

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00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:23,279
creature involved in that theophany. That's
why they're called Theophanes and not angel aphelies

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angelophones. Right. The Augustinian position
is that they're creatures. The Tomistic position

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is that they need to be creatures, and the divine texts themselves argue that

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they're energetic manifestations, so the manifestation
itself is not a creature nectarios. Hey,

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Jay, can you hear me?
Yeah? Is God's energy a creature?

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Well? I had a question for
you though it might be a little

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bit off topic for for tonight.
Wow, what's your question? It's it's

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kind of I mean, so,
my first experience with Orthodoxy. I am

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an Orthodox Christian by the way,
but my first experience with Orthodoxy was in

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a so called genuine Orthodox church,
right. I attended liturgies and services there

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for one or two months I think, before figuring out they weren't technically in

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communion with the church, and I
had a It just kind of led to

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a rabbit hole, I guess,
and doing I guess research about them,

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and there's I see, I see
a lot of like inconsistencies with a lot

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of people's opinions in regards to certain
saints. That we have and well,

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so it's not an old calendar discussion
day. So yeah, have any topics

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related I'm not being mean or rude, either related to tomism or papacy we're

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sticking to that right now, or
Islam, Protestantism logos. What's up?

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Hello? Yep? Hey, So
I was wondering. So, in terms

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of how these tomas talk about theophanies
being created effects, would you argue that

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they argue themselves out of essential Christian
doctrine? Yes, yes, absolutely.

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And also regarding like the Eucharist,
in terms of them only seeing or experiencing

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creative effects, would you say they
only give lip service to the real presence?

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Yes, I mean all we have
to do is ask them what are

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your what are you partaking of?
Because nobody believes you eat the essence of

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God? And Roman Catholic dogmatics A
Lili got right at says that what you're

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what you're, the grace you're getting
is a created accident in the soul.

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It's a supernatural creation in the soul. So the grace itself, not the

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effects, but the grace itself is
said to be a supernatural creation. And

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how could any Orthodox person accept that? When we believe in a real participation

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in uncreated energy. And that's why
that uniate. By the way, I

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00:20:32,039 --> 00:20:36,599
didn't want to go there. M
would you also argue they kind of like

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the tons, especially the guy I
heard earlier all the difficult what he was

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called, the guy you were making
fun of, They kind of argue like

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Muslims, they're just like us.
Yeah, like they they how can all

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creation? You know? Like that, that's why we call we call it.

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We call him Abu Aquinas all the
time. How could I be in

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creation? One one one one,
yeah, exactly. Yeah. Anyway,

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I just want to say thanks Jay
for everything receives the church. So yeah,

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good miss your man, thank you. I mean, everybody should go

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back and maybe read, you know, the the early Bradshaw arguments for the

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energies, right, because he just
goes to Moses on Mount Sinai and he

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says, look, Moses on Mount
Sinai is a real energetic theophony in time

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and space. And so the problem
is that a lot of people in Scholasticism

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once again have these metaphysical assumptions that
the theod Let's take let's take phaser,

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right, So a phaser says in
uh five proofs. Just as an example,

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he says, an absolutely simple essence
cannot be in time and space.

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If God is an absolutely simple essence
and we sort of identify him as that,

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that would undercut the incarnation itself,
because it's not an absolute It's not

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an essence that became incarnate. It's
the second person of the Godhead that stepped

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into time and space. It's not
the Father, not the Spirit that entered

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into the mode of becoming incarnate.
So you need, really you need a

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real triad for one person to enter
into a mode of being that the other

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two don't. And these reducings to
pure actuality or saying that God is identical

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to his existence is identical to his
essence, thus cancels out the possibility clearly

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of incarnation. But they don't think
about any of this as theology centering primarily

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on the incarnation. Trinity and incarnation
is where we start our theology. Not

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for them, their theology starts with
Aristotle and first principles and a bunch of

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metaphysical assumptions of what can and can't
be the case. Then it builds and

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tax on trinity down the road.
Right when the sympago how does sum a

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contragenila start an entire volume with the
absolutely super simple essence of God, and

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then after you do all this argumentation
on what's supposed to be common ground,

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then it moves over into trinity and
incarnation. We'll tack on Jesus and all

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that stuff later. But that's why
we don't argue for natural theology, self

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evident principles, brute factuality, epistemic
bootstrapping, and the idea that things aren't

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theory relating. But they don't believe
that. They don't think that way because

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as they are wedded to a medieval
system. Maximos, it was a I

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mean, the question I have is
kind of in line too with at least

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I think so. But so is
it true that first same Maximus, I

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think it's an aig abigua attend It
can be said that he didn't believe that

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the particulars well, rather that the
if the particulars is are in a sense

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where to be destroyed or something like
that, that alongside that would be the

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00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:40,960
universals, like in the same sense
that for example, where's thought to my

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understanding, Yes, so universals in
Saint Maximus are created realities because he says

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that universals can perish and that in
the Torstein, Tolos and dissertation he repeats

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that and says the universals com parish. So how would that work in terms

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00:25:00,519 --> 00:25:04,039
of perceiving reality itself? Though?
Like, for example, if all humans

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cease to exist, how I mean, wouldn't that follow that? I mean,

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the universals would cease to exist as
well, Like there wouldn't be like

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the subjective sense to universals. I'm
not understanding how what would it mean that

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if all humans disappear? I don't
understand, Like, for example, like

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00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:33,000
is in application that universals exist whether
I exist? Right? Would you say

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00:25:33,039 --> 00:25:37,359
that that that's true? Yeah,
They're not strictly dependent upon human perception.

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I think they're part of the created
order that God established. Sure, right,

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00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:48,559
So so if there's no humans to
I guess perceive or like, wouldn't

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it follow that then I mean there
would be no universals. No, because

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the grounding of the grounding of universals
is the LOGI in the divine mind,

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not not the human mind. So
humans existing is not what establishes universes.

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They're they're grounded in their divine mind. According to Yes so Maximus says that

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universals are based on the logie of
universals and everything else in the divine mind.

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Okay, and would this be akin
to like the logos logie like the

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00:26:23,039 --> 00:26:27,960
archetypes. What do you say that
these archetypes are the universals and they're like

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00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:34,359
saying no universals have an archetype in
the divine mind. That's the logie of

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00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:41,759
the universal. So nothing that's God
can perish. God's thoughts don't perish,

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right, So we couldn't equate a
universal to the logie there is a logi

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four universals. That's the key distinction
that Maximus makes. That's what distinguishes us

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from Platonism. The Platon's position is
that the forms the universals are the patterns

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of the Principal's archetypes. And mac
makes this important distinction between saying that universals

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00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,000
can perish, but they're premised on
the patterns and the archetypes in the divine

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00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:12,240
mind that ground them. Okay,
So would this be like a type of

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00:27:12,279 --> 00:27:18,079
divine conceptualism? Yes, okay,
all right, that's it. Yeah,

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00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:25,279
great question, that's a great question. All right, So we're gonna keep

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00:27:25,319 --> 00:27:30,079
going we've got a nice audience here. We'll probably continue on for a little

331
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,920
bit for those that are interested in
UH an overview essay on the some of

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00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:42,200
this issue of the Energies. There's
that essay. This, by the way,

333
00:27:42,279 --> 00:27:48,480
was the quote earlier from Irenas about
recapitulation. It's section one here,

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00:27:48,599 --> 00:27:52,440
so you can go read this.
I forgot that I was gonna read it,

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00:27:52,799 --> 00:28:00,839
but we got distracted with people calling
in. Well, before we do

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very limited time. It was confused
because the analogy seemed to be a weak

374
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:26,079
analogy because and unless you presuppose maybe
you do maybe it kind of leads you

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00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,720
into, well, there's an eternal
creation, there's stuff outside and it's distinct

376
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,640
from God, and so it doesn't
manage it. I don't know. I

377
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,680
have to be honest. I'm trying
to do my best to work through this,

378
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,880
pretending to be a Thomas, and
I'm confused. If God's attributes are

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00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:47,200
identical to his essence, If God's
glory is an attribute, and God's glory

380
00:31:47,279 --> 00:31:51,559
is manifested in time and space,
then God's essence is manifested in time and

381
00:31:51,599 --> 00:31:52,799
space exactly. Oh, I see
what he's saying. Yeah, no,

382
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,920
I mean he's saying that, Like, how do they not understand this?

383
00:31:56,079 --> 00:32:01,400
It's a very simple, clear argument. Yeah, Now, this is perfectly

384
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:07,640
illustrative because this is what the thomass
and the Roman Catholics and even that Uni

385
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,400
eight guy had to do to make
this work. Was so then turn around

386
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:16,119
and say so, ultimately, what's
happening in these Theophanes is there's some created

387
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:21,160
veil over them they're not real created, they're not a real theophony. But

388
00:32:21,279 --> 00:32:25,319
how does the debate with the barleymite
end up going? It ends up being

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00:32:25,319 --> 00:32:30,400
about the uncreated light, and the
uncreated light is no different than the uncreated

390
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:35,359
fire or the uncreated chicana glory cloud. I mean, imagine thinking that the

391
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:43,119
energetic manifestation of the Holy Spirit is
a creature or about the incarnation. Well,

392
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:44,920
yeah, that would be like saying
that, Well, they're just going

393
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,039
to say that the humanity of Christ
is the created aspect. Yeah, but

394
00:32:47,799 --> 00:32:52,279
it's a divine person, not the
Father, not the Spirit. It's the

395
00:32:52,319 --> 00:32:57,079
sun in time and space. And
so the principle of the Theophanes is as

396
00:32:57,119 --> 00:33:01,119
if you've seen you've seen the Father. Yeah, I mean so, I

397
00:33:01,119 --> 00:33:06,119
mean, I guess you could be
led into the Storianism, to be honest,

398
00:33:07,559 --> 00:33:14,759
which is some of the issues with
by the way the iconoclass is you're

399
00:33:14,799 --> 00:33:20,359
not seeing the divine nature because it's
so it's not present. So it basically

400
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:43,119
ended up taking in the stories position
on Christ it's incarnation. What other questions

401
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:58,759
we are? All Right, let's
see to the dude with the Greek name,

402
00:33:58,799 --> 00:34:00,839
you're why don't you call in and
like I don't like people love to

403
00:34:00,839 --> 00:34:10,840
come to the chat and like fuss, there's the link if you want to

404
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:17,800
call in there. I disagree with
you on the likes of with the likes

405
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:22,239
of you on the Essen Syenterti distinction. Okay, well then come defend what

406
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:29,880
you're trying to argue. Like I
think one of the most powerful arguments that

407
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,960
Bradshaw made for me to convince me
of all this it was not anything to

408
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,880
do with like tonism or critiquing it. I mean, there was some of

409
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:43,559
that was very powerful, but once
I really looked at the Theophanes, like,

410
00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:46,679
you have to have the Essen Senterty
distinction, and they have to be

411
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:55,599
they're miraculous events where God does things
outside of the antonomies of time and space.

412
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,440
There's no reason why God can't not
any his essence because his essence is

413
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:07,440
impassable and unchangeable. Why God can't
come into time and space and move from

414
00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:10,239
one place to another. Just think
about this. So, for example,

415
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:16,159
for a lot of these people,
movement would imply that God is deficient,

416
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:23,519
imperfect, and subject to change.
Now they have a metaphysical boots, like

417
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:30,599
a dogmatic metaphysical position. But let's
just think about did Jesus, as a

418
00:35:30,639 --> 00:35:36,280
divine person walk from one city to
another? Was he really in one city

419
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:42,559
in a mode that was not identical
to is omnipresence and then move from one

420
00:35:42,599 --> 00:35:46,039
city to another? Okay, so
in some sense God can in time and

421
00:35:46,079 --> 00:35:51,719
space do different things and move about. Why would we think this is impossible

422
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,280
for him? Why would we want
to put metaphysical limitations on what divine revelation

423
00:35:55,400 --> 00:36:01,360
tells us about the Lord coming down
in time and space to talk to and

424
00:36:01,519 --> 00:36:06,719
rustle with the Jews, to talk
to Abraham, to eat with Abraham.

425
00:36:07,119 --> 00:36:09,360
Do you think it was a created
angel that came and ate with Abraham or

426
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:14,079
was it the logos himself? I
mean, if you want to get really

427
00:36:14,079 --> 00:36:27,400
slil with this, how does God
eat? So every problem with a theophany

428
00:36:27,559 --> 00:36:30,599
really being an energetic manifestation of God
in time and space, not a creature,

429
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:37,280
not some creaturely veil, but a
real theophany ends up also by extension

430
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:45,159
being a problem for the incarnation itself. I mean, is Jesus eternally walking

431
00:36:45,199 --> 00:36:50,000
on water or was that a specific
event in time and space that God did?

432
00:36:50,039 --> 00:37:17,320
And it's no longer the case.
Mark you got to immute, are

433
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:24,960
either Kristin one hundred dollars. Thank
you for that fat super chest. She

434
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:32,480
says, you are fat reasses.
I am not fat. I got wrecked

435
00:37:32,519 --> 00:37:38,800
because I'm a fat reasses. So
much for Bay's tradcats relying on the social

436
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:46,599
justice war. Your complaint of you
Bay's paper twenty five dollars. Uh.

437
00:37:46,639 --> 00:37:52,559
Thomas Bob Marley was doing a sophistic
reggae. Uh. And that was discussion.

438
00:37:52,559 --> 00:37:57,039
That was That was a hilarious discussion. Thank you, Martin. Did

439
00:37:57,079 --> 00:38:00,159
you want to talk? I can't
hear you. I understand why these people

440
00:38:00,199 --> 00:38:22,480
come and they can't the don't have
their mics on. Charles, Are you

441
00:38:22,519 --> 00:38:46,199
there, Caleb? I am you? Hello? Hey? So what are

442
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:52,920
how are sorry? How are the
Theophanes of Christ different than the Theophanes of

443
00:38:53,039 --> 00:39:01,119
the Holy Spirit? Because, uh, this gets discovers eventually by the time

444
00:39:01,159 --> 00:39:07,360
of the Moscow Icon Synods, and
they talk about how it's never the hypostasis

445
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:12,400
of the Father or the Holy Spirit
that's in time and space particularly, but

446
00:39:12,519 --> 00:39:16,639
it's their energetic manifestation. So the
tongues of Fire and the dove, they

447
00:39:16,679 --> 00:39:21,719
can't be the actual hypostasis of the
Spirit because the Holy Spirit is not a

448
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,360
dove, and he's not a tongue
of fire. Likewise, the Father is

449
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,320
not an old man, right,
So you can't ever say that it's the

450
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,159
hypostasis of the Father or the Spirit
that's incarnate, or that's in time and

451
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:37,679
space. In a hypostatic manifestation,
it is the hypostasis of the Sun that

452
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,480
is incarnate. And so the Son
is kind of the foundation of all Theophanes

453
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,199
and that's why in the Old Testament
he's identified as that angel of the Lord

454
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:51,159
that is always present. Now,
the Trinity is always present in every manifestation,

455
00:39:51,599 --> 00:39:55,559
but in a unique mode. So
for example, sometimes it's the glory

456
00:39:55,599 --> 00:40:00,239
Cloud, which is the uncreated energetic
manif festation of the person of the Holy

457
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:05,239
Spirit. Sometimes it's the voice of
the Father, which is the energy proper

458
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,639
to the Father to say, this
is my beloved Son. But it's never

459
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:13,119
the person of the Father as his
hypostasis in time and space. And that's

460
00:40:13,119 --> 00:40:16,480
why Jesus says you you have never
no one has seen the Father at any

461
00:40:16,519 --> 00:40:21,360
time, but the Son has revealed
and the Son has declared him. So

462
00:40:21,639 --> 00:40:25,159
the explanation of the Orthodox is that
when you see Pentecost the tongues of fire.

463
00:40:25,559 --> 00:40:30,559
That's the energetic manifestation of the Holy
Spirit. Okay, very cool,

464
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:37,480
great question. Also, as Father
Deacon pointed out, the Seventh Ecumentical Council,

465
00:40:37,039 --> 00:40:42,599
when it talks about the theology of
the Icons, it points out that

466
00:40:42,639 --> 00:40:46,679
it's the divine person of the Son
that is circumscribed. So the circumscription is

467
00:40:46,679 --> 00:40:52,239
not picking out the divine nature in
the icons. When we look at Christ,

468
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:58,280
it's picking out the hypostasis of the
Son because the Son became incornate.

469
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:17,159
Tanji, what's up? I had
a couple of questions, but I wanted

470
00:41:17,199 --> 00:41:20,760
to ask, I guess this kind
of related to the Last Beast question.

471
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:27,159
Are the Theophanes always the sun or
what? How do we distinguish between which

472
00:41:27,199 --> 00:41:30,760
person it is when there was a
Theophany? Yeah, well, like the

473
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:36,880
again, like the tongue. I
think it's the canonical interpretation of the text

474
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,559
as a whole tell us that the
glory cloud and the Holy Spirit. All

475
00:41:40,639 --> 00:41:45,760
right, So the Holy Spirit hovering
above the waters is the Holy Spirit hovering

476
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:51,320
above the arc and the tabernacle.
The cloud. That's the same Holy Spirit

477
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:55,440
hovering above Mary. It's the Chicina
glory cloud as it's called the Chicana.

478
00:41:55,519 --> 00:42:00,679
Glory cloud is not a creature,
it's the glory of God. So it's

479
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:05,679
identified in other texts as the person
or excuse me, as the energetic mefestation

480
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,519
of the Holy Spirit. And then
with like in Genesis, when God is

481
00:42:09,559 --> 00:42:16,800
walking through the garden yep okay,
Jesus identifies himself as the one meeting with

482
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:22,039
Abraham, eating him the meal with
him, et cetera. Jesus is Jesus,

483
00:42:22,599 --> 00:42:25,000
Jesus ident huh. I was asked
if that was in John five.

484
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,960
Well, it's five through nine is
where he has this debate with the Pharisees

485
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,039
over this topic and that Abraham believed
in him and so forth. But it's

486
00:42:32,079 --> 00:42:39,039
in John two that he identifies himself
as the one wrestling with Jacob. I

487
00:42:39,039 --> 00:42:45,639
also want to talk about Islamic epistemology. I was wondering if you think we

488
00:42:45,679 --> 00:42:52,639
can critique Muslims like we do Protestants
and their understanding of the Bible, But

489
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:57,239
can we do that to Muslims and
their ability to understand the Quran since they

490
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:08,360
have no infallible interpretive body. I
wouldn't go that route as an epistemological critique.

491
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,960
I mean, it might, you
might make a practical critique of you

492
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,280
know, what exactly is Islam.
It kind of sells this idea that they

493
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:21,519
just have a simple view of God
as one. But then you have all

494
00:43:21,519 --> 00:43:25,159
this fighting and squabbling over all these
different schools about what it means for God

495
00:43:25,199 --> 00:43:30,239
to be one or for talheed.
Right. So, but I wouldn't say

496
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:36,719
that it's necessarily a defeater just because
they don't have an infallible body or a

497
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,519
belief and infallible body, because that
doesn't really solve anybody's epistemic problem, but

498
00:43:40,599 --> 00:43:46,159
just moves the problem back and stuff. How does orthodoxy escape that circle of

499
00:43:46,199 --> 00:43:52,199
interpretation? There is no circle of
interpretation because everybody's in the same boat that

500
00:43:53,199 --> 00:43:58,599
some claimed infallible interpreter doesn't do anything
for anybody. So at the end of

501
00:43:58,639 --> 00:44:02,039
the day, everybody's relying on the
whole spirit to give them certitude about what's

502
00:44:02,079 --> 00:44:07,159
correct. But where we differ with
the Protestant or Roman Catholic would be the

503
00:44:07,199 --> 00:44:10,559
means that God uses. For the
Protestant, it's them in the Bible for

504
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:15,519
the most part. For the Roman
Catholic it's them and the people decrees.

505
00:44:16,559 --> 00:44:24,320
For us, it's a holistic thing. What do you think the biggest epistemic

506
00:44:24,639 --> 00:44:30,400
critique for Islam would be or would
you make Yeah, I would because they

507
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,719
tend to pretty much except for maybe
doctor Khalil or something like that. Like

508
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:40,159
they almost all are just basic bitch
empiricists, so the same way, Yeah,

509
00:44:40,199 --> 00:44:44,800
you can make a metaphysical critique of
occasionalism. But if we're just talking

510
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:49,400
to pistemology, I mean, they're
empiricists. I mean, go back to

511
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:54,199
the Asra Rashid debate. He's just
arguing. Literally, his book is basic

512
00:44:54,199 --> 00:45:21,159
Empiricism, questioning Safer Darren. By
the way, we've had so many theological

513
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:25,880
debates in the last week. It's
kind of getting old. I mean,

514
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,639
I'm gonna have to kind of like
how many times we have the same debate

515
00:45:30,639 --> 00:45:35,119
over and over, you know what
I mean. So I'm looking forward to

516
00:45:35,159 --> 00:45:39,519
kind of moving back to talking about
a lot of geopolitical and funny streams.

517
00:45:39,519 --> 00:45:45,440
So look in the next upcoming week
for a lot more of that kind of

518
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:46,599
stuff. I got to take a
break from all this stuff. It's very

519
00:45:46,599 --> 00:45:51,039
boring and dry and just but it's
just a bunch of weird nerds who obsess

520
00:45:51,079 --> 00:45:55,840
over stuff that really has nothing to
do with the actual practice of the Roman

521
00:45:55,840 --> 00:46:00,119
Caolic Church. So let's keep in
mind that the Romancolic Church is not a

522
00:46:00,159 --> 00:46:07,320
medieval scriptorium. It is not a
medieval crusade against the heresies and the you

523
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:16,119
know, Saracens. Roman Catholicism nowadays
is a geopolitical power, a soft power

524
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:22,480
attached to the global elite, and
they don't care anything about Tomism and all

525
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:34,639
this stuff that these nerds are role
playing about online. Hello. Yeah,

526
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,079
hi, I am new to the
Twitter space. Who remember the familiar how

527
00:46:39,119 --> 00:46:44,360
this works? Also, I'm kind
of new to j Dyer, but I

528
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,320
just wanted to float. I recently
had some arguments with a friend of mine

529
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:55,239
who Polas and solar scriptur. Is
that like within the purview of tonight's or

530
00:46:55,559 --> 00:46:59,920
like today's discussion discussions? Yeah,
I put Protestanism in there. We get

531
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:05,599
talk about that, okay. So
one thing I noticed I was listening to

532
00:47:06,039 --> 00:47:12,360
the debate between Redeem Zumer and Luigi
is that I don't know, there seems

533
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,320
to be like, uh, it's
not that there was anything wrong with the

534
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,719
content, but I was just wondering
if there there was another possible avenue of

535
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:27,400
critique of something like solo solo scripture
just based on like it's a it's phenomenological

536
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:35,280
and anthropological incoherency that everybody begins with
an oral tradition. Language is a social

537
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,920
phenomenon, and so like the idea
of it that you can somehow like have

538
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:45,159
a vision or an understanding of a
text that is primarily based on the like

539
00:47:45,199 --> 00:47:50,719
the content of the text itself without
any reference to something outside of it,

540
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:54,000
is like it's it's not even human. And this is the exact same pattern

541
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:59,760
that we're noticing with the Thomas,
with the Protestant, with the Mausleum.

542
00:48:00,039 --> 00:48:04,519
They all treat this stuff in the
exact same way that there's this brute factuality

543
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:09,400
of self evidence in all of these
things. Yeah. Yeah, And one

544
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:15,119
thing I was wondering about is this
is an argument that I've posted quite a

545
00:48:15,159 --> 00:48:22,039
few people, is just that before
the Masoretic Text, the Old Testament scriptures,

546
00:48:22,079 --> 00:48:27,880
the hebrewscriptures were impossible to read silently
because they didn't have any notations,

547
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,119
they didn't have viol valel notations.
So you relied upon an oral tradition,

548
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:35,800
i e. A rabbi in order
to even be able to read the text.

549
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,760
In the first place, you also
have like references to Ambrose being weird

550
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:45,559
because he read texts silently, and
so it was just like it was assumed

551
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:52,519
that texts were reference to communal understandings
rather than vice versa in the ancient world.

552
00:48:52,599 --> 00:48:54,880
Absolutely. Yeah, that's a great
point. It's really like probably a

553
00:48:54,920 --> 00:49:00,480
post Enlightenment, post Reformation idea that
the text well, actually, if we

554
00:49:00,519 --> 00:49:05,760
could probably go back to Muslims,
because in some of the Sunni literature that

555
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:09,039
I was reading, the Muslims are
actually even ahead of time, ahead of

556
00:49:09,079 --> 00:49:16,119
Aquinas in people like that, in
some of the empiricist argumentation that they were

557
00:49:16,199 --> 00:49:24,320
utilizing. So their approach to the
texts pre dates a lot of these sort

558
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:31,760
of empiricist approaches that you get in
people like Aquinas a tournament. So there's

559
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:37,000
a there's a section in the uh
oh yeah, yeah, it's there's a

560
00:49:37,079 --> 00:49:45,960
there's an essay in the Oxford Companion
to Islam which is about I can't remember

561
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:51,119
if it's about Ibn Tamia or Henbalism
in general, but basically it was going

562
00:49:51,159 --> 00:50:00,360
through the fact that a bunch of
these figures actually quote are historical progenitors to

563
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:06,559
John Locke and the Enlightenment empiricists.
I just remember that. I wonder I

564
00:50:06,559 --> 00:50:09,760
wonder as well, it's just this
guy came to mind, just I wonder

565
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:15,239
if it possibly has to do with
the shifts in the understanding of authority in

566
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:21,880
the Western world generally, like with
Catholicism, shifting it to like from the

567
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:25,719
fronema of the community, like the
Apostolic succession being something that has to do

568
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:32,000
with the passing on of the personality
Yes of God in the community. Yeah,

569
00:50:32,039 --> 00:50:37,480
and keep in mind too, to
address this very point against Protestants when

570
00:50:37,519 --> 00:50:40,679
we did the debate with Dale,
doctor bel Branson had about a thirty minute

571
00:50:42,199 --> 00:50:45,639
sort of extemporaneous lecture that he gave
and in that debate where he noted that

572
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:52,800
the Jewish attitude prior to you know, the time of Christ was this sort

573
00:50:52,840 --> 00:51:00,000
of communal structure and you don't like
there's no idea of like the every average,

574
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,159
every day duke getting to like just
interpret the text of the way that

575
00:51:02,199 --> 00:51:07,159
they want. So he was making
the point that that wasn't even true in

576
00:51:07,159 --> 00:51:09,440
the Old Testament. So when Protestants
try to say, well, you didn't

577
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:14,480
have an infallible interpreter of the Church
and the Old Testament so it was every

578
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:19,320
man for himself private interpretation. That's
totally not true. You had a synagogue

579
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:23,840
system that was set up by Ezra, and they had authority in that structure

580
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:30,639
that trumps some private interpretation of the
average Israelite. And also like to go

581
00:51:30,679 --> 00:51:34,199
along with that, I mean,
thinking of the text itself, a private

582
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,360
person could not read it exactly,
great point, Great point, Rabbi,

583
00:51:37,599 --> 00:51:43,960
because there's no vowels and so like, and so like if you if you

584
00:51:44,159 --> 00:51:47,960
just look at the you know,
the the Hebrew letters, different words can

585
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,920
mean different things depending on nunciation,
and so the text is literally like a

586
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:59,679
shittle with It's like you cannot read
it without the without the oral tradition,

587
00:52:00,039 --> 00:52:04,159
and so like, I guess that
that that just feels like a nail in

588
00:52:04,199 --> 00:52:08,320
the coffin for me, for for
a solo scriptura, because if this is,

589
00:52:08,559 --> 00:52:13,199
if this is uh, if this
is how like it's I mean,

590
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:16,599
I think the phenomenological anthropological point stands
no matter what I think. This is

591
00:52:16,639 --> 00:52:24,519
part of why, like a seminary
is called cemetery for most Evangelical Protestants because

592
00:52:24,559 --> 00:52:28,599
they go there with all of these
oral traditions based on the preaching of their

593
00:52:28,599 --> 00:52:34,639
pastor and things, the reference they've
they've they've gathered then counter higher criticism,

594
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:38,159
which is a completely different oral tradition, right that basically kills the text and

595
00:52:38,199 --> 00:52:43,599
then like separates out all the parts
and then like laughs at it. Yeah,

596
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:46,920
Like that's that's the oral tradition that
they move into. And they but

597
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:52,719
they can't appeal to oral tradition as
something authoritative, right, and so they

598
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,960
end up losing their faith or just
becoming higher critic themselves. I think that's

599
00:52:55,960 --> 00:53:01,559
a really strong argument, that's really
perceptive insight to what happens to a lot

600
00:53:01,559 --> 00:53:07,440
of Protestants. Yeah, well that
was my name question. Yeah, and

601
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:12,960
to again piggyback that the debate is
not with Dale Tuggy, it's just with

602
00:53:13,159 --> 00:53:15,000
Dale the Protestant. I don't know
who he is, but we did this

603
00:53:15,079 --> 00:53:22,119
debate eight months ago over here on
Faith Unfiltered Channel, Protestant Debate versus Orthodox

604
00:53:22,199 --> 00:53:29,039
Jay versus Dale the Protestant. But
probably in about the first hour, doctor

605
00:53:29,079 --> 00:53:37,000
Branson gives a really excellent breakdown of
how it actually worked like amongst Jews,

606
00:53:37,079 --> 00:53:42,199
which is basically they had little synods, so the structure of Jewish interpretation,

607
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,639
rulings and halaka and all that kind
of stuff was kind of like small sinodal

608
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:51,719
systems. And that's the basis for
why, for example, in Acts fifteen

609
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,239
they have a council. Right,
so like when Ax fifteen, when the

610
00:53:55,280 --> 00:54:00,679
Jerusalem Council happens, it's not like
the apostle just said, let's make up

611
00:54:00,679 --> 00:54:04,400
this new way of doing things,
counsel. Now this actually is again from

612
00:54:04,559 --> 00:54:07,239
the Jewish tradition. Sean, But
thank you for that, good, good

613
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:12,559
point, sir, Sean. What's
up? Hey? What's going on?

614
00:54:12,679 --> 00:54:16,280
Sir? How are you great?
What's up? Hey? So? I'm

615
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:22,400
new to to faith in general general
but Protestant and uh, I've been asking

616
00:54:22,519 --> 00:54:32,199
questions you know about Solo fe day
and was was directed to, you know,

617
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:37,360
Romans four, and obviously I gave
the rebuttal of what that's referring to.

618
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:42,039
After Abraham, Marty, does you
know a couple of chapters of good

619
00:54:42,119 --> 00:54:47,119
work? The response that I'm looking
for is they always go then too Romans

620
00:54:47,199 --> 00:54:54,079
five regarding you know whoever does not
work, but trust God who justifies them

621
00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:59,239
godly. The faith is credited as
righteousness. Yeah, but Jesus says faith

622
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:02,199
is the word. So been on
their position like having faith is something that

623
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:07,760
you have to actually do. Even
if we believe that faith itself is also

624
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:09,880
a gift, it's still something that
you have to do. So there's even

625
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:20,440
faith it presupposes synergy. Yeah,
and that's that's why sole scripture is bothering

626
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:24,039
me. I've always had this,
ask questions about by faith alone and never

627
00:55:24,119 --> 00:55:30,360
really never really got a good answer
for it. So that's why I've started

628
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:35,159
listening to more orthodoxy things like like
Andrew Wilson and yourself, and it's just

629
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:38,480
you know, it's helping me kind
of, yeah, navigate my way here.

630
00:55:38,519 --> 00:55:42,440
So yeah, I would say go
check out, like I've got several

631
00:55:42,519 --> 00:55:47,000
talks kind of critiquing justification by faith, faith alone and imputation. We got

632
00:55:47,039 --> 00:55:50,679
a lot of podcasts, so I
said check those out to start with,

633
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,079
and then you're always welcome to come
back and ask questions on that. No,

634
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:57,559
what's up, No, let me
read a couple of super tests before

635
00:55:57,559 --> 00:56:00,199
we go to know sm of the
cat ten dollars. Have you ever seen

636
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:01,559
the movie The Endless? Yes,
I did see that movie. I liked

637
00:56:01,559 --> 00:56:05,760
it. It's about a group of
people in the woods and they're sort of

638
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,840
like a UFO cult and a death
cult, except not really a UFO cult,

639
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,320
but it's kind of that sort of
thing. Yeah, I think it

640
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:15,880
has a sequel too. I watched
both of those. I like them.

641
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:19,800
I think I just forgot about ever
doing like a movie analysis of it.

642
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:22,280
DC Custom ten dollars much love,
my brother. I hope you and Jamie

643
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:29,400
are well. Thank you appreciate that
stuff. You know, we did stuff

644
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:32,960
on Netfection sixteen dollars twenty four cents
thanks to your debate debates. I've converted

645
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:37,440
to Orthodoxy recently at Saint Gregor Palma's
Generation Day. What would you recommend for

646
00:56:37,519 --> 00:56:45,599
new converts besides good Catechism, going
to liturgy. We need your content in

647
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:51,119
I don't know what you mean,
we need your content in. Well,

648
00:56:51,679 --> 00:56:55,679
what I recommend for I mean,
I wouldn't worry about this sort of abstract

649
00:56:55,760 --> 00:57:04,880
theological stuff if you're a new convert
too much focus on the basics. I

650
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,480
mean it might sound quote Protestant,
but I mean Saint John Chrystolsom says that

651
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:13,400
as the laity, you have more
need of reading the Bible than the monks

652
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:19,800
do. So I would say,
as laity we should actually be biblically literate.

653
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:23,119
Many people are not so, and
the more I think about it,

654
00:57:23,119 --> 00:57:27,440
the more I notice with all of
these. So when we talk to the

655
00:57:27,519 --> 00:57:32,599
Muslims and we, for example,
present the argument that the new revelation quote

656
00:57:32,679 --> 00:57:37,360
unquote of the Quran is inconsistent with
the previous revelation of the Bible, what

657
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:43,239
we always find is that Muslims don't
know what's in the Bible. So the

658
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:47,519
hinge of this argument will also,
unfortunately, partly be contingent on knowing that

659
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:52,800
the teachings of the Bible contradict the
Quran. But you're not going to know

660
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,760
that until you actually read and try
to understand the Bible. So unfortunately,

661
00:57:55,840 --> 00:58:00,360
for that argument, which is devastating, it has a learning that probably most

662
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:05,280
Muslims are not going to concern themselves
with trying to understand what's in the Bible

663
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:10,280
and seeing if it's actually a contradiction
to the crown. Likewise, with today's

664
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:15,480
Thomass and the people that popped up
the first Thomas said I don't want to

665
00:58:15,519 --> 00:58:19,079
go to the Bible. Stop quoting
the Bible at me. That was literally

666
00:58:19,079 --> 00:58:22,719
what he said, maybe even twice. And then with the Uni eight who

667
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:25,760
comes on he doesn't as soon as
we go to Leviticus, he says that

668
00:58:27,159 --> 00:58:30,039
Theophanes are created, and then he
contradicts themselves and says they're God, but

669
00:58:30,039 --> 00:58:34,679
they're created, have some sort of
creative veil or whatever nonsense he said.

670
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,519
I mean, he he's not grappling
with the text. And then he said,

671
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:45,119
you'd have to show that the glory
cloud is is actually God himself.

672
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:53,480
So he's biblically ignorant of the Holy
Spirit manifesting over the waters, manifesting over

673
00:58:53,679 --> 00:59:00,800
the Tabernacle and the Temple as the
Chakaina glory cloud as it's called by everyone,

674
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:07,719
including Jews, and then the manifestation
of the the same cloud above the

675
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:14,559
Arc of Mary. So this is
really fundamental Biblical theology. So while I

676
00:59:14,639 --> 00:59:23,199
recognize it's useful to have some of
this philosophical baggage and terminology for you know,

677
00:59:23,199 --> 00:59:29,079
the way that the Church fathers argue
the Trinity, I more and more

678
00:59:29,079 --> 00:59:35,679
and more see how we don't need
all of this medieval tomistic scholastic stuff.

679
00:59:35,719 --> 00:59:39,519
I mean, I've never thought we
needed it since leaving Roman Catholicism a long

680
00:59:39,559 --> 00:59:45,800
time ago, But more and more
I see how divorced it is from what

681
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:50,920
we're supposed to be believing in terms
of the actual revelation of these texts,

682
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:58,760
and whether it's Tim Gordon or whether
it's these Tomists. This is where they

683
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:01,039
don't want to go. They want
to I spend all day long arguing with

684
01:00:01,079 --> 01:00:07,119
you over medieval scholastic manuals of what
this or that level of distinction is.

685
01:00:08,159 --> 01:00:14,039
Okay, the Cappadocians, they use
a lot of philosophical terms. They're not

686
01:00:14,199 --> 01:00:22,480
concerned with that. Saint Gary Palomus
wasn't primarily concerned with that. In fact,

687
01:00:22,599 --> 01:00:27,760
the majority of the argumentation and the
Triads and against the Barley Mite just

688
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:34,280
simply goes to the scriptures. So
I think we should just bypass all this

689
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,639
gibberish because, by the way,
all this scholastic terminology, it just alienates

690
01:00:37,639 --> 01:00:40,239
a bunch of laity. Anyway,
they don't care about this. They're not

691
01:00:40,239 --> 01:00:49,599
going to dive into reading technical scholastic
manuals of distinguishing all these terms. And

692
01:00:49,679 --> 01:00:52,559
why should they. Why would any
of that be necessary when the first thousand

693
01:00:52,639 --> 01:00:57,239
years of the Church, or even
the first one hundred years of the Church,

694
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:00,159
the time of the Apostles, they
didn't have this stuff. Why why

695
01:01:00,199 --> 01:01:02,599
do we need all of that if
they didn't have it and they were able

696
01:01:02,639 --> 01:01:10,480
to achieve theosis and salvation. So
really it just becomes a useless hindrance and

697
01:01:10,679 --> 01:01:15,360
people end up worshiping their ideas.
The real root of all of this is

698
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:22,719
pride and ideolotry system worship and worshiping
your ideas as God and not the actual

699
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:28,719
living God of Scripture. What does
Palamas say? He did not say I

700
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:32,880
am it. He says I am
he. Can we read this, you

701
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:45,400
guys? So in the Triads see
this paragraph here. Okay, I'm going

702
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:52,079
to read this paragraphs not real long. Will he, his opponent, claim

703
01:01:52,159 --> 01:01:57,559
that the essence means that which possesses
uniquely in a unified way, all of

704
01:01:57,559 --> 01:02:00,360
these powers, then, first of
all he should have called this reality God,

705
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:05,119
for this is the name which we
have received from the Church. To

706
01:02:05,159 --> 01:02:07,920
express this idea. Even when God
spoke to Moses, he did not say

707
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:14,199
I am essence, but I am
the existing one. This means inasmuch as

708
01:02:14,599 --> 01:02:21,960
he who is does not derive from
essence, but rather essence derives from he

709
01:02:22,119 --> 01:02:27,760
who exists. So the emphasis here
is put on the fact that I am

710
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:34,079
is a statement of divine personhood.
Of the monarchia of the Father, and

711
01:02:34,119 --> 01:02:37,960
by extension, yes, the Son
is also present in this theophany as well

712
01:02:37,039 --> 01:02:43,320
as the Angel of the Lord.
But the Angel the Lord is able to

713
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:50,599
say that he also is Yahweh.
But the point of Palamas in this page

714
01:02:50,679 --> 01:03:00,559
is to argue against the misapplied emphasis
of the Western Latin scholastic position to think

715
01:03:00,639 --> 01:03:04,719
that I am that I am is
a statement of I am supreme essence,

716
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:08,960
I am being, which is a
Plutonian reading. And that's why, for

717
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:14,199
example, if you read Ettien Jill
Sollen, the most famous tomist of like

718
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:16,639
last century, right, Jill Soon
says, when God says in Exodus three,

719
01:03:16,679 --> 01:03:21,639
I am, he says I am
supreme essence or supreme being. And

720
01:03:21,679 --> 01:03:23,400
we don't have a problem saying that
in some sense God is supreme being.

721
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:43,400
But God's being is an energy for
us freedom. Hello, hey, hey,

722
01:03:43,519 --> 01:03:49,039
Jay, So I like a lot
of the arguments you're giving for essence,

723
01:03:49,119 --> 01:03:51,639
energies and the Theophanes. I think
it makes a lot of sense.

724
01:03:52,519 --> 01:03:55,880
And in the same way with the
Roman Catholic Church, the modern Saints and

725
01:03:55,920 --> 01:04:00,199
their practices just being so much different
from the Church is a big thing for

726
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:05,039
me. However, there are some
arguments surrounding dogmas and councils that have been

727
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:10,559
keeping me from being able to,
like you know, fully put you know,

728
01:04:10,599 --> 01:04:15,199
both two feet in orthodoxy. And
I'm sure you've probably discussed this before,

729
01:04:15,199 --> 01:04:17,320
and I've listened to some talks on
it. But I was wondering if

730
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:21,039
you would be willing to take just
like a minute or two to discuss Agatho's

731
01:04:21,119 --> 01:04:28,400
letter and under the umbrella of Catholicism
and Tonism and whatnot. Okay, well,

732
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:31,280
have you watched the videos where we
cover it. I believe I have.

733
01:04:31,519 --> 01:04:35,280
One of the things I understand the
arguments that you make is that because

734
01:04:36,119 --> 01:04:45,239
the the Third Council of Constantinople also
condemns Honorious as a Monothelite heretic, it

735
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:50,079
doesn't protect every pope from defecting.
However, I was wondering if you but

736
01:04:51,119 --> 01:04:55,239
that's just one that's like a secondary
argument. I'm talking about the other arguments

737
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:59,039
I had made in this video called
does the letter of Agatho prove the PAPIs?

738
01:04:59,199 --> 01:05:02,639
Have you seen that I might have? How about I go watch that

739
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:06,559
and then I'll make sure and then
i'll come back if I have That's Okay,

740
01:05:06,639 --> 01:05:12,119
I mean, I'm just repeating basically
the arguments that are in the Denny

741
01:05:12,199 --> 01:05:16,719
book Papalism by Edward Denny, And
what he argues is that there's no way

742
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:20,599
to say, first of all,
that this is a proof of like the

743
01:05:20,679 --> 01:05:26,079
Vatican one position, because if the
mindset of the church at that time was

744
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:30,559
Vatican One mindset, then all they
would have done is look to latter In

745
01:05:30,639 --> 01:05:38,039
six forty nine, because latter In
six forty nine was the condemnation of monothelitism

746
01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:42,639
several decades before six point eighty one, and constantin uple three. What they

747
01:05:42,679 --> 01:05:46,679
do is they hold an ecumenical council
because that's what they saw as authoritative,

748
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:51,840
not just papal fiat, right,
and they investigate the letter of Agatho in

749
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:57,000
the exact same way that they investigated
Leo's tone to see if it was consistent

750
01:05:57,039 --> 01:06:01,280
with Cyril. Yeah. I think
you might have made that argument a day

751
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:04,719
or two ago and somebody else who
called them when I was watching. No,

752
01:06:05,039 --> 01:06:09,000
I haven't talked about Agatha's letter in
the past two days. Okay,

753
01:06:09,239 --> 01:06:13,559
it must have been on your Popes
channel, then my bad. But uh

754
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:15,960
yeah. So one of the things
about that though is I understand that the

755
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:21,800
practice of the Church didn't operate in
a Vatican One mindset. But one of

756
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:30,880
the important claims that I've seen people
make is that even though the individual popes

757
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:34,760
could defect, and they'll often cite
Newman doctrine of development, even though that

758
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:40,199
kind of contradicts Vatican one. Right, but you know, they'll say that

759
01:06:40,239 --> 01:06:45,119
individual popes can defect, but whenever
they do that, they're not exercising the

760
01:06:45,159 --> 01:06:50,400
authority of the sea. So the
sea itself and the Church, because Vatican

761
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:55,639
one doesn't just Vatican one says that
Rome, the Roman Sea has never taught

762
01:06:55,760 --> 01:07:00,159
error. So this makes it an
unfalsifiable position to just simply say, oh,

763
01:07:00,199 --> 01:07:01,840
well, the Roman Sea has never
taught error, but when it does,

764
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:05,480
he's no longer the pope, I
mean, so, so it's not

765
01:07:06,079 --> 01:07:12,079
then the occupant is not indefectible.
So this this destroys indefectibility, which is

766
01:07:12,119 --> 01:07:15,199
taught at Vatican One. So it's
not they're deflecting to a question of infallibility

767
01:07:15,639 --> 01:07:23,079
when the point there is about indefectibility. So well, if if they could

768
01:07:23,199 --> 01:07:27,880
just make the argument that the office
can't defect, but the person who's in

769
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:30,880
the can how would you? But
Vatican one doesn't argue that. So that's

770
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:38,880
a that's a ad hocs like specials
moving the goalposts, alteration, because the

771
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:43,119
Roman Sea is embodied by the occupant
of the Roman Sea. So if if

772
01:07:43,159 --> 01:07:45,199
I read Vatican one and it tells
me that the roman See cannot teach ay

773
01:07:45,239 --> 01:07:50,800
and will never defect, then you
can't separate it from I mean, I

774
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:54,800
know that they would say there's a
distinction between the office and the occupant,

775
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:59,119
but the it's a living magisterium,
it's not. It's not an office that's

776
01:07:59,159 --> 01:08:03,400
a Nestorian Platonic form that you're in
communie with. You're in commune with the

777
01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:08,239
living Pope, who is the living
image of the living magisterium. So you

778
01:08:08,239 --> 01:08:14,679
see how they're it's they're united.
I suppose I'll have to go back and

779
01:08:14,719 --> 01:08:17,159
reread Vatican two and I'll pick up
that paper. Well, no, Vatican

780
01:08:17,159 --> 01:08:21,159
one, it's Vatican one, not
Vatican two. But let's let's let's think

781
01:08:21,159 --> 01:08:28,199
about if we adopted that position,
wouldn't that destroy the whole practical point of

782
01:08:28,239 --> 01:08:33,359
what Vatican one argues about the papacy. If conceivably any position from the pope

783
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:38,399
might be erroneous, and I might, as an individual Catholic, judge that

784
01:08:38,479 --> 01:08:41,680
it's heretical, and I don't have
to accept him. In other words,

785
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:45,000
that's moving in the direction of the
set of a consisposition. But if I

786
01:08:45,039 --> 01:08:51,079
take the set of a condisposition,
then the Roman see and its practical argumentation

787
01:08:51,239 --> 01:08:56,479
loses all of its force. I'll
law Vatican one. Do you see what

788
01:08:56,520 --> 01:09:00,319
I'm saying. I would agree that
it loses all of its practical force,

789
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:05,680
But you could still make an argument
from the dogma that you still have to

790
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:11,039
submit to it, even though you
have no practical way of knowing whether it

791
01:09:11,159 --> 01:09:15,399
is, you know, being exercised
or not. Wait, so if the

792
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:19,600
Pope taught heresy, you're saying I
would have to submit to his heresy,

793
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:25,920
Well, no one can judge the
first c right exactly position right? Well

794
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:29,079
yeah, so it's basically you're just
it's like a pretzel position, like you're

795
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:33,359
constantly sort of like twisted all around
and back to the other problem. So

796
01:09:34,199 --> 01:09:42,560
it's it's certainly you know a lot
of sophistry, but I mean, I

797
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:45,680
I don't want to completely rule it
out until I can, like you know,

798
01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:51,119
find an exact dogmatic contradiction, because
maybe it could be some complicated process

799
01:09:51,159 --> 01:09:55,479
where you're just supposed to mindly submit. I mean, well, I mean

800
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:58,880
if you want to, if you
want to. I mean a clear dogmatic

801
01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:03,439
contradiction would be that in nineteen twenty
eight it was a surrendering of the faith

802
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:09,520
to have interfaith gatherings with other so
called Christians, and after Vatican two you

803
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:13,880
can pray in mosques and synagogues,
okay, And how do you know that

804
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:19,119
the it's dogma to do interfaith gatherings. I thought it was just SuperOrdinary magisterium

805
01:10:19,239 --> 01:10:27,159
like or not SuperOrdinary. But the
status of mortalium animals won't matter because the

806
01:10:27,199 --> 01:10:32,720
pope at that time was exercising the
universal traditional attitude, as everyone admits,

807
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:36,319
like nobody prior to that would go
and pray in synagogues or moss. So

808
01:10:38,199 --> 01:10:45,439
unless you think that nobody understood the
basic morality of public liturgical worship until Vatican

809
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:49,880
two, I mean, that would
be an absurd position to hold. I

810
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:54,319
mean, it might be absurd,
but I do think it would be fair

811
01:10:54,359 --> 01:10:59,119
to challenge the idea that mortalium animals
just dogma. I don't think. I

812
01:10:59,119 --> 01:11:04,560
think they just claimed again. But
it's an encyclical that was expressing through ordinary

813
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:09,640
teaching, what was the mindset of
the church at that time and prior.

814
01:11:10,279 --> 01:11:13,680
And for example, you know that
the ancient canons in the first thousand years,

815
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:18,359
for example, excommunicate prelates that pray
in synagogues, right, No,

816
01:11:18,439 --> 01:11:23,199
I yeah, that's in the ancient
canons. Yeah, so I think it's

817
01:11:23,199 --> 01:11:25,800
at the Six Council. It's a
canon I think from the Six Council.

818
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:30,079
So in other words, that's the
traditional mindset. I think we all know

819
01:11:30,159 --> 01:11:34,600
that the medieval church calls for crusades
against the Muslims, right, the papal

820
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:39,479
Church calls for crusades urban the second
Right. Do we agree on that?

821
01:11:40,159 --> 01:11:44,399
Yes? Okay, So when Mortellian
Animals is written in nineteen twenty eight,

822
01:11:45,119 --> 01:11:50,039
whether it's strict universal ordinary magistrum,
I would argue it does express the classic

823
01:11:50,159 --> 01:11:54,439
universal attitude the church, because we
can go back to the first thousand years

824
01:11:54,479 --> 01:11:58,199
and see that the canons of the
church say that you can't go and pray

825
01:11:58,199 --> 01:12:03,640
in synagogues, and by extension,
then it seems to follow that whatever the

826
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:10,399
I don't even Mortelling Animals does not
have to be extraordinary magisterium because it's expressed

827
01:12:10,399 --> 01:12:15,279
in the traditional mind of the Church, meaning that it's universal ordinary magisterium,

828
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:19,680
or at the least its ordinary magisterium, and so there's no way for it

829
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:27,439
to be virtuous and correct to reject
those things. In nineteen twenty eight and

830
01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:30,079
within a few decades, the Holy
Spirit now says the exact opposite as to

831
01:12:30,159 --> 01:12:35,039
what is virtuous and correct. Okay, And yeah, that's that's a very

832
01:12:35,199 --> 01:12:41,199
good concrete argument. And I will
all go read those epistolic and we know

833
01:12:41,439 --> 01:12:47,079
that on top of that, the
basis four Francis going and praying in the

834
01:12:47,119 --> 01:12:54,319
mosques and Benedict and John Ball the
second doing it and in synagogues is because

835
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:59,720
of the teaching of Vatican two in
lumin Gentm. Sixteen and nostratate that Jews

836
01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:03,319
mull of Christians all adore the same
God and have the same amriamic faith.

837
01:13:05,279 --> 01:13:10,920
Yeah, I've I've heard some of
my Roman Catholic friends dismiss it with like

838
01:13:11,039 --> 01:13:14,239
wording issues where they're like, oh, it doesn't actually say that. I

839
01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:17,640
don't know, but the Pope is
acting on what the council says, so

840
01:13:17,920 --> 01:13:25,840
it absolutely says that. I mean, that's yeah, we've read Lemon Gentee

841
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:28,479
of sixteen like a million times.
I'm not going to reread it, but

842
01:13:29,359 --> 01:13:38,920
yeah, I understand. Okay,
well, thank you for your time that

843
01:13:39,079 --> 01:13:41,840
I really appreciate it. I mean, did you have any other issues,

844
01:13:41,880 --> 01:13:46,640
topics or questions. I think I
should just chew on the stuff he told

845
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:49,840
me for now and maybe come back
another day. So there's anything else,

846
01:13:50,319 --> 01:14:13,039
Okay, I'm just looking for the
quote from Little God about what the grace

847
01:14:13,239 --> 01:14:47,000
is in Roman Catholicism. Here it
is sanctifying grace is a created, supernatural

848
01:14:47,039 --> 01:14:51,439
gift, really distinct from God.
This is Little God's fundamentals of Catholic dogma,

849
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:57,199
probably one of the most famous modern
traditional systematic theologies of the Roman Catholic

850
01:14:57,319 --> 01:15:03,800
Church. Supernatural is infused by God. Supernatural grace is a participation in the

851
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:13,119
divine nature. Well, if it's
a created reality that's an accident in the

852
01:15:13,199 --> 01:15:19,960
soul, and it's a supernatural creation
that's really distinct from God, then you

853
01:15:20,079 --> 01:15:25,359
see the problem immediately with this in
the Roman Catholic Tomistic position. So the

854
01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:30,399
same thing that cancels out their view
of the Theophanes is exactly why they won't

855
01:15:30,399 --> 01:15:34,119
say you're participating in uncreated grace,
And this, by the way, is

856
01:15:34,239 --> 01:15:40,479
him summarizing not just Tunism but fundamentals
of Catholic dogma. So in the Roman

857
01:15:40,479 --> 01:15:49,640
Catholic dogmatic position post Trent, grace
is defined as a supernatural created reality that

858
01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:59,720
is not God. But then he
contradicts by saying in point five supernatural grace

859
01:15:59,880 --> 01:16:05,119
is is a participation in the divine
nature? Is the divine nature a creature?

860
01:16:05,159 --> 01:16:09,159
Because he just calls it in point
one a creature? So you want

861
01:16:09,159 --> 01:16:19,560
another contradiction, There you go.
Nikolai, Hey, Jake started doing.

862
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:24,000
You've been uh, you've been rocking
at the last couple of days. You

863
01:16:24,039 --> 01:16:27,159
must have got a lot of energy
from Las Vegas. Yeah, that chalk

864
01:16:27,239 --> 01:16:31,760
dot com. There you go,
great, great plug right there. You

865
01:16:31,800 --> 01:16:36,199
know, you know, having listened
to you for a while now, for

866
01:16:36,239 --> 01:16:40,720
a couple of years, and also
just the recent last couple of debates that

867
01:16:41,079 --> 01:16:45,680
are at least the Twitter spaces you've
done. It seems like a lot of

868
01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:47,920
the arguments have basically dried up on
their side. They don't really have much

869
01:16:48,039 --> 01:16:53,399
besides nitpicking and everything else. Right, But what I see as a major

870
01:16:53,479 --> 01:16:58,800
issue going on, more so just
for Orthodox going forward, is dealing with

871
01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:02,479
the a lot of people coming in
with theological baggage, and one of them

872
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:09,079
that I've noticed is the what some
people are calling the Orthodox Latinizers, and

873
01:17:09,119 --> 01:17:14,119
a lot of the kind of theology
they're trying to like inject into Orthodoxy that

874
01:17:14,119 --> 01:17:17,319
doesn't exist. Have you ever considered
going doing a like a stream or a

875
01:17:17,319 --> 01:17:23,880
long maybe you already have on the
Confession of tothesis and like the Synod of

876
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:28,640
Jerusalem that they always point to and
they try and like take out a context

877
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:31,880
and things like that. Yeah,
so if you read the in fact,

878
01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:38,680
father Deacon anon Ice and I were
actually talking about doing a stream on Latinizers

879
01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:42,520
and the Western right aberrations. Not
everybody in the Western rights bad, but

880
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:51,600
the bad manifestations of it. One
thing we know that is true that shows

881
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:57,479
that the mindset wasn't to be a
Latinizing text is that in the Norman Russell

882
01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:08,479
translation of the Palomite Synods, on
page thirty four, it says that the

883
01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:12,720
patriarch of Jerusalem, Docithios the second
responded to the target with his tone of

884
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:16,880
love in sixteen eight ninety eight.
This is a collection of Palomite texts prefaced

885
01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:21,319
by introduction in an account that has
to cast controversy from a Palamite perspective.

886
01:18:23,560 --> 01:18:28,720
In seventeen twenty seven, as this
there's the relationships worsened with a Romancolic church,

887
01:18:29,720 --> 01:18:35,199
a constantinof Politan Council endorsed again the
Palamite understanding, so it was clear

888
01:18:35,319 --> 01:18:41,640
that they did not want to express
the Latin theological baggage, even if they

889
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:45,520
were using terms like transubstantiation or something
like that. And this is something that

890
01:18:45,199 --> 01:18:48,439
back in twenty eighteen we actually addressed
a lot of this because there was a

891
01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:53,399
wave of converts back in twenty eighteen
and we kind of already had this exact

892
01:18:53,439 --> 01:18:56,199
same problem back then, and so
we addressed it a lot. Back then.

893
01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:59,640
This problem kind of died down,
but now it's like resurfaced again as

894
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:03,640
you point it out, because people
are coming and saying and assuming that there's

895
01:19:03,680 --> 01:19:08,640
all this you know, Latin baggage
that they that they need to bring into

896
01:19:08,720 --> 01:19:13,159
Orthodoxy to save it, to rescue
it, and so forth, and it's

897
01:19:13,319 --> 01:19:15,720
just odd. I mean, you
know, Prime is an obvious proponent of

898
01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:19,640
this nonsense, but Prime is saus
just completely ridiculous things. And I don't

899
01:19:19,680 --> 01:19:25,039
think anyone should listen to him.
So you know, that's what you get

900
01:19:25,119 --> 01:19:28,840
if you're going to listen to like
twenty four year old people spamming on the

901
01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:32,640
internet all day. Yeah. The
one thing that I always or maybe you

902
01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:35,640
could let me know what you think
of this. One of the things that

903
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:41,239
really just kept on, like they
kept on hammering on was when Bishop Erine

904
01:19:41,439 --> 01:19:45,399
came out with his original sin.
Yeah, but Bishop was correct and everything

905
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:49,319
that he said. Yeah, absolutely, And and the thing that always like,

906
01:19:49,880 --> 01:19:57,119
really I like the way the church
operates isn't the way that they say

907
01:19:57,319 --> 01:20:01,439
it operates theologically. For example,
if what they say about baptism for infants

908
01:20:01,560 --> 01:20:05,000
is true in our theology and infants, it would be a moral crime,

909
01:20:05,119 --> 01:20:09,399
in my opinion, not to baptize
them the moment they come out of the

910
01:20:09,479 --> 01:20:12,920
womb. Instead, we have a
theology that says we wait forty days.

911
01:20:13,119 --> 01:20:15,880
Yeah you know, so how does
their theology express itself in the church.

912
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:18,119
Well, it doesn't, you know
what I mean. So that was just

913
01:20:18,199 --> 01:20:21,399
some of the thoughts that I had. Well, there's also one of our

914
01:20:21,520 --> 01:20:27,600
mods put up one of the liturgical
readings which actually says that we don't presume

915
01:20:27,920 --> 01:20:31,840
that infants are damned. I forget
which day that liturgical reading is, but

916
01:20:32,880 --> 01:20:39,159
the liturgy itself goes against their position
exactly. Well, I appreciate your time,

917
01:20:39,239 --> 01:20:47,359
Thanks Jay as always, and keep
in mind to that addressing the specifics

918
01:20:47,399 --> 01:20:55,800
of that issue with original sin is
the link right here, Saint Augustine Calvin,

919
01:20:56,359 --> 01:21:01,399
original Sin and Orthodox theology that addresses
this issue. And then also there's

920
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:04,439
another one I did the one.
I think it's the Roman ees one that

921
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:19,439
addresses it. Augustine Analogy of Being, et cetera also touches on that as

922
01:21:19,479 --> 01:21:29,039
a separate livestream. But so yeah, I think that's a great analysis that

923
01:21:30,119 --> 01:21:34,079
the opposition is really drying up.
That's why they're resorting to these kind of

924
01:21:34,239 --> 01:21:41,520
like outbursts and these they're grasping at, regurgitating a quitness. Which is what's

925
01:21:41,520 --> 01:21:44,520
funny though, is that if you
go back to twenty seventeen twenty eighteen,

926
01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:49,720
it was like a mirror of now
because at that time there's a lot of

927
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:53,000
debates with Thomas. At that time, it was like, you know,

928
01:21:53,079 --> 01:22:00,600
we're arguing with reasoning theology people.
There's a lot of people trying to promote

929
01:22:00,640 --> 01:22:03,840
Tomism. Matt Fratt at that time
was even kind of pushing Tomism and this

930
01:22:03,960 --> 01:22:10,039
kind of stuff. There were these
Thomas who would like come on Discord all

931
01:22:10,079 --> 01:22:14,119
the time we were having debates back
and forth. That's all kind of died

932
01:22:14,159 --> 01:22:16,920
away, right, and we had
a whole surge and a wave of converts

933
01:22:16,960 --> 01:22:21,720
back then, fast forward to now. It's like the twenty two year old

934
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:26,439
dudes that have started reading Aquinas a
couple of years ago think that none of

935
01:22:26,520 --> 01:22:29,399
this has been dealt with or addressed, and like all they have to do

936
01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:32,880
is kind of represent what a Quitas
said here and there, not realizing that

937
01:22:33,039 --> 01:22:35,880
like most of this stuff was already
dealt with, like in twenty eighteen,

938
01:22:36,000 --> 01:22:40,600
we responded all that. So a
lot of these things kind of die away

939
01:22:40,720 --> 01:22:45,760
and then they pop back up.
But the you know, Francis is really

940
01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:50,479
helping us out a lot. So
props to put Francis because every time these

941
01:22:50,520 --> 01:22:56,479
people want to deflect off into this
scholastic nonsense and you've got uniates who wants

942
01:22:56,560 --> 01:23:00,800
us to go into union with freaking
Francis. Are you kidding me? Really?

943
01:23:00,880 --> 01:23:04,800
This is just suggests to me that
anyone that's still left in that communion,

944
01:23:04,920 --> 01:23:08,880
And I mean, I love Tim
and I have respect for Tim and

945
01:23:08,920 --> 01:23:12,520
I want him to convert. But
Tim's very honest about the struggles and the

946
01:23:12,560 --> 01:23:16,119
problems that are going on. I
mean, Francis is right now cracking down

947
01:23:16,159 --> 01:23:21,239
on the Latin mass. So all
these trads who want to deflect in arguing

948
01:23:21,319 --> 01:23:29,760
all this medieval dungeons and dragons crap
is just a disservice to I guess sometimes

949
01:23:29,800 --> 01:23:30,680
it has to be addressed, which
is why we're doing this, But it's

950
01:23:30,680 --> 01:23:35,239
a disservice really to what this whole
thing actually is. In reality, it's

951
01:23:35,319 --> 01:23:43,920
not medieval dungeons and dragons and crusades. It's Francis as a geopolitical operative shutting

952
01:23:44,039 --> 01:23:47,199
down the thing that all of these
idiots are trying to convince us of.

953
01:23:47,760 --> 01:23:50,520
You need to become a true trade
cat, to be faithful to the pope.

954
01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:54,279
Bro. Oh but by the way, don't submit to the pope,

955
01:23:54,319 --> 01:23:59,840
bro, except if your orthodox submit
to the Pope bro. This is why

956
01:24:00,079 --> 01:24:02,600
acting out, This is why I
think at this point, do we really

957
01:24:02,680 --> 01:24:14,279
need to give the impression that Roman
Catholicism is this elaborate scholastic artifice and architecture

958
01:24:15,279 --> 01:24:20,680
when that's a medieval thing that doesn't
even exist anymore, and all I need

959
01:24:20,760 --> 01:24:27,680
to do is go to the ridiculous
histrionic women saints that they actually say I

960
01:24:27,800 --> 01:24:33,000
have to accept and show how preposterous
this is Jesus telling Margaret Mary alacoqueit to

961
01:24:33,199 --> 01:24:38,359
carve into her chest his name and
then sign a pact with the blood.

962
01:24:39,399 --> 01:24:43,640
So people who want to talk about
tumism have to defend that. Who cares

963
01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:51,079
about all this scholastic bull crap when
the religion on the ground is actually female

964
01:24:51,680 --> 01:24:58,239
skin carving piety. This is not
an obscure saint. This is next to

965
01:24:58,359 --> 01:25:01,439
Fatima as the most important thing in
the last several hundred years, called sacred

966
01:25:01,479 --> 01:25:10,920
Heart Margaret Mary ala Coquay. So
who cares? What boring ass thing?

967
01:25:11,079 --> 01:25:16,399
Thomas Aquinas wrote hundreds of years ago. The religion on the ground that you

968
01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:23,239
have to accept, it's not optional, is the historyonics of women, and

969
01:25:23,760 --> 01:25:32,720
no wonder these people act like histrionic
women. Please any Roman Catholic makes sense

970
01:25:33,039 --> 01:25:38,600
to me of Margaret Mary ala Coquay
and the Sacred Heart in all of this

971
01:25:40,199 --> 01:25:45,039
self harm, which is obviously a
demonic delusion. Who can't see? Who

972
01:25:45,079 --> 01:25:51,920
doesn't have the discernment to compare this
to the profits of bail screaming and yelling

973
01:25:51,960 --> 01:26:28,279
and cutting themselves in First Kings.
Marshall Marshall mathers, I'm mute, yeah

974
01:26:28,840 --> 01:26:31,840
you hear me. Uh yeah.
So I just kind of a question.

975
01:26:32,039 --> 01:26:40,000
This is pretty funny because yesterday you
hadn't talked to Christian Wagner, and like

976
01:26:40,760 --> 01:26:44,119
I couldn't talk to you yesterday because
I was too late, But now you

977
01:26:44,199 --> 01:26:46,399
did talk him. Was kind of
perfect timing. So he wrote a thing

978
01:26:46,960 --> 01:26:49,680
or he said something on Twitter.
I think it was like a week ago,

979
01:26:50,800 --> 01:26:54,760
and I just want to get your
take on it. It's a it's

980
01:26:54,800 --> 01:27:01,199
from Basil against you unumias already covered
at the beginning of the talk. Oh,

981
01:27:01,319 --> 01:27:05,199
the one where you're talking about the
conceptualizations. I mean, are you

982
01:27:05,279 --> 01:27:13,880
talking about the what the supposed proof
for Basil teaching relations of opposition? No,

983
01:27:14,039 --> 01:27:17,079
it's or maybe it's the one where
he says, thank you Saint Basil

984
01:27:17,159 --> 01:27:23,800
for affirming a conceptual distinction between essence
and energies and these sites against so,

985
01:27:24,520 --> 01:27:30,039
I guess cat upanoya. Bradshaw has
a whole essay on what ca catapanoya means

986
01:27:30,079 --> 01:27:34,079
in Saint Basil and Basil says that
the distinction between the energies is the same

987
01:27:34,199 --> 01:27:38,359
as the distinction between the persons,
so it cannot be purely conceptual. So

988
01:27:38,479 --> 01:27:42,840
what they don't understand is that you
can have a distinction that is only in

989
01:27:42,880 --> 01:27:45,399
the mind, or a distinction that
is in the mind and in reality.

990
01:27:45,760 --> 01:27:49,800
And Basil says that the distinction that's
in the mind is also based on the

991
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:54,000
reality in the trinity, so it
is not a purely conceptual seed. So

992
01:27:54,199 --> 01:27:57,760
in other words, if he was
consistent, then then he believes in modalism,

993
01:27:57,880 --> 01:28:02,199
because Basil says it's the same for
the person. Okay, yeah,

994
01:28:02,279 --> 01:28:05,359
because he's I read I read what
he said, and I was like,

995
01:28:06,039 --> 01:28:13,199
this is how is this proving just
a conceptual distinction? Because after he cites

996
01:28:13,199 --> 01:28:19,199
in the bold using designations that differ
there there's quote their quote mining looking for

997
01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:26,359
the terminology based on word concept fallacies
that that proves the Romancalty position. And

998
01:28:26,520 --> 01:28:30,600
Bradshaw has a whole long essay about
Catapanoya addressing all of those things. Everybody

999
01:28:30,640 --> 01:28:35,600
should read that. But we can
set aside all of the difficult issues or

1000
01:28:35,680 --> 01:28:43,119
debates with Catapanoya and conceptual and go
back again to the Theophanes, because the

1001
01:28:43,199 --> 01:28:47,279
principle of the Theophanes is the same
principle of whether whether what do we participate

1002
01:28:47,399 --> 01:28:53,039
in in terms of grace? So
all I have to do to refute this

1003
01:28:53,199 --> 01:28:57,479
whole stupid position is to go back
to scripture and say, in Leviticus nine,

1004
01:28:58,920 --> 01:29:01,279
is the glory of God hearing to
the Israelites? Or is it a

1005
01:29:01,359 --> 01:29:05,960
created thing? Yeah? Exactly,
you just go to the scripture not getting

1006
01:29:06,239 --> 01:29:11,159
caught in all these or or as
Paloma says, or when when we talk

1007
01:29:11,199 --> 01:29:15,000
about what we participate in terms of
grace? Am I participating in a conceptual

1008
01:29:15,079 --> 01:29:19,520
reality or a real uncreated grace?
What will make me immortal and god like?

1009
01:29:19,920 --> 01:29:26,159
A conceptual participation? Because we all
agree, we all agree we don't

1010
01:29:26,159 --> 01:29:29,600
participate in the essence of God,
right Roman Catholic Orthodox, So what do

1011
01:29:29,720 --> 01:29:32,880
we participate in? Well, Jesus
says we participate in the glory that he

1012
01:29:32,960 --> 01:29:36,359
had with the Father in John seventeen. Is God's glory created? No?

1013
01:29:36,920 --> 01:29:42,800
But Roman Catholicism dogmatically teaches that what
we participate in is a created, supernatural

1014
01:29:42,880 --> 01:29:47,640
gift right here, Yeah exactly,
is the glory of God a creature?

1015
01:29:48,000 --> 01:29:53,640
You heard the Uni eight earlier say
yes and no, and yes and no,

1016
01:29:56,039 --> 01:29:59,039
oh I just got here, oh
yeah, or earlier on in this

1017
01:29:59,199 --> 01:30:04,600
yeah, yeah, and but one
more thing like that thing he cited how

1018
01:30:04,920 --> 01:30:09,960
it like literally right after he does
the bold thing. It says on the

1019
01:30:10,079 --> 01:30:15,479
basis of his different energies and his
relation to the objects of his divine benefaction.

1020
01:30:16,039 --> 01:30:19,800
It says on the basis of his
different energies right after that, to

1021
01:30:19,920 --> 01:30:25,680
try to prove it's justconceptual when he's
just right after it says it's different energies.

1022
01:30:26,000 --> 01:30:28,199
Yeah. Well, I mean again, these people don't actually they just

1023
01:30:28,319 --> 01:30:30,359
quote mine looking for They don't care
about the context. They're just quote minding,

1024
01:30:30,439 --> 01:30:33,840
looking for terminology that they think will
help back up their position. On

1025
01:30:33,960 --> 01:30:39,079
the Orthodox Fate Book three, John
Damascus says in section fifteen, observe that

1026
01:30:39,359 --> 01:30:43,000
energy capacity for energy, product of
energy, and agent of energy are all

1027
01:30:43,199 --> 01:30:49,159
different. Yeah. So anyway,
that's all I had. Yeah. So

1028
01:30:49,520 --> 01:30:54,960
this is precisely why in the debate
that Palamas has with the barley mites and

1029
01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:59,600
Ecan dinos, the debate eventually goes
to, well, what are we participating

1030
01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:02,079
in? Because if you want to
say that the distinctions between God and his

1031
01:31:02,279 --> 01:31:06,359
grace, from between God and his
righteousness or God and his attributes is not

1032
01:31:06,720 --> 01:31:14,159
real or not conceptual or in some
way beyond just cut up anoia, Then

1033
01:31:14,319 --> 01:31:16,800
what is that we get in salvation? This is the clincher. This,

1034
01:31:17,079 --> 01:31:23,520
this destroys the uni A and the
Thomas position, the Scotist and the Thomas

1035
01:31:23,600 --> 01:31:28,560
position, because they're not going to
say that we participate in an uncreated reality

1036
01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:31,880
distinct from the essence of God.
And yet that's the only possible position that

1037
01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:40,960
reconciles that theophanies and refutes the stupid
position of the Roman Catholic dogmatic stance that

1038
01:31:41,399 --> 01:31:46,720
grace is a created, supernatural gift. Yeah, I wonder what his what

1039
01:31:46,880 --> 01:31:51,479
I wonder what Christian Wager's opinion on
that the is, you know, I

1040
01:31:51,560 --> 01:31:59,880
mean, Thomas Aquinas believes that they're
angels. As far as I'm I don't.

1041
01:32:00,079 --> 01:32:03,399
I can't imagine him doing anything other
than just regurgitating Thomas Aquinas. Because

1042
01:32:05,079 --> 01:32:09,359
the other thing is that, like, these people have not spent enough time

1043
01:32:09,560 --> 01:32:13,600
and had not had enough exposure to
the fact that, like there's a lot

1044
01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:20,880
of debates in this domain in philosophy, and just restating and regurgitating Aquinas is

1045
01:32:21,000 --> 01:32:30,560
something that young guys do without realizing
the academic philosophical nuances and problems even in

1046
01:32:30,640 --> 01:32:38,479
tumism. So they're just acting like
tumism is a given. Even the room

1047
01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:41,319
doesn't believe in tumism anymore. Father
Deacon, are you there? Could you

1048
01:32:41,359 --> 01:32:45,600
speak to that at all? Yeah? Sorry? What was the question?

1049
01:32:45,399 --> 01:32:48,880
I mean, what would you say
to somebody who says something like, why

1050
01:32:48,920 --> 01:32:54,479
should I care about the fact that
modern philosophy and academia and all that is

1051
01:32:54,840 --> 01:33:00,079
concerned with, you know, problems
of self evidence or the criterion problem or

1052
01:33:00,560 --> 01:33:04,319
the myth of the given, like
all of that's modern. Wouldn't it just

1053
01:33:04,359 --> 01:33:12,640
be better to adopt and go with
a system like Tomism? Well then I'd

1054
01:33:12,720 --> 01:33:17,840
say, well, then just pick
your poison and go with whatever arbitrary.

1055
01:33:19,640 --> 01:33:23,520
I mean, if we're gonna be
archaic, isn't it better if I just

1056
01:33:23,680 --> 01:33:29,319
go to I don't know, Greek
mythology? I mean yeah, Like,

1057
01:33:29,479 --> 01:33:32,319
why would we arbitrary? Why would
we say that Tomism because it's the best

1058
01:33:32,319 --> 01:33:39,079
system. It's the one that provides
the grand, grand narrative scope. Yeah,

1059
01:33:39,079 --> 01:33:42,880
it gives everything I want. So
it's just confirmation. In other words,

1060
01:33:42,920 --> 01:33:45,319
give me my position and let me
argue it, and then I'll show

1061
01:33:45,319 --> 01:33:48,279
you that my position is true.
Yeah, exactly. And again it just

1062
01:33:49,279 --> 01:33:56,119
all that tells us, and all
that's doing is you're just simply given a

1063
01:33:56,199 --> 01:34:02,119
psychological report. I like that it
psychologically pleasing to me, but that doesn't

1064
01:34:02,159 --> 01:34:09,680
tell me why we ought to why
should we go? We just choose anything

1065
01:34:09,720 --> 01:34:15,079
that's psychologically See how it's arbitrary.
I just choose whatever psychologically pleasing to me,

1066
01:34:15,159 --> 01:34:18,720
and that satisfies my psychological demands.
That's good enough for me. And

1067
01:34:18,880 --> 01:34:27,039
if, well, somebody later in
history comes up with a problem, I'll

1068
01:34:27,119 --> 01:34:30,479
look away because I don't want to
hear problems. Yeah, they handwave everything

1069
01:34:30,720 --> 01:34:39,560
after say fifteen hundred. Let's stay
the problem that way, Father Deacon,

1070
01:34:39,680 --> 01:34:45,680
what's the problem with somebody handwaving because
they're going to argue kind of like a

1071
01:34:45,800 --> 01:34:50,119
rhetorical kind of argument that. Well, everything fifteen hundreds in after is like

1072
01:34:50,319 --> 01:34:58,680
obviously degenerate modernism. So why would
we want to deal with or utilize argumentation

1073
01:34:58,800 --> 01:35:04,880
from anybody after fifte hund Well you
need an argument for that? Well,

1074
01:35:04,920 --> 01:35:08,680
aren't you a Christian? Aren't you? Aren't you a Christian? Why would

1075
01:35:08,680 --> 01:35:13,600
you care what people after fifteen hundred
said they're pretty much not Christian. Wouldn't

1076
01:35:13,640 --> 01:35:21,159
that be a genetic fallacy? Exactly? Absolutely? Yeah, just because and

1077
01:35:21,319 --> 01:35:31,199
it could also be an ad hominem
maybe circumstantial. Well, Aristotle wasn't a

1078
01:35:31,359 --> 01:35:35,680
Catholic. Why are we supposed to
care so much what Aristotle says? And

1079
01:35:35,880 --> 01:35:44,680
by the way, this temptation comes
into Orthodoxy too. So yesterday I thought

1080
01:35:44,720 --> 01:35:47,680
it was really funny. But as
we're learning societies devolving in whether will be

1081
01:35:47,800 --> 01:35:50,840
no more humor in a couple of
years, nobody will laugh at anything.

1082
01:35:54,439 --> 01:36:00,199
But I just had to wish everybody
a happy Fourth of July with the the

1083
01:36:00,319 --> 01:36:06,800
old classic picture Jack dack Nicholson and
the shiny because that photos taking Fourth of

1084
01:36:06,880 --> 01:36:11,279
July and you've just seen people lose
their mind. Why are you posting the

1085
01:36:11,399 --> 01:36:18,279
psatiotic photo or picture? So memes
are Satanic, I mean memes are like

1086
01:36:18,520 --> 01:36:25,119
everything everything Satan, baba bashet,
everything's corrupt. Do you notice this kind

1087
01:36:25,159 --> 01:36:29,479
of sort of thing? And and
people were going, you remember some of

1088
01:36:29,560 --> 01:36:34,000
these kind of mentally unstable people going
and trying to find occultic signs and everything

1089
01:36:34,079 --> 01:36:39,079
on your website or like on Patristic
faith and stuff like that. So everything's

1090
01:36:39,119 --> 01:36:45,079
evil and it's contaminated, right,
And I feel like this is part of

1091
01:36:45,159 --> 01:36:51,720
this kind of puritanicalism with kind of
Tonism or something like that. Everything satanic

1092
01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:58,399
except for Auas. Why no,
I think I think uh Wagner called uh

1093
01:36:59,119 --> 01:37:03,439
Tim Gordon and an s O D
O M I T e because of something

1094
01:37:03,520 --> 01:37:08,960
ridiculous. I don't remember all the
was something like because because Tim Gorgan said

1095
01:37:08,960 --> 01:37:12,800
that husbands and wifes should sleep in
the same bed. And Wagner, I

1096
01:37:12,840 --> 01:37:15,479
don't know, maybe he was joking, but he'd called that s O D

1097
01:37:15,560 --> 01:37:18,600
O M Y. I mean,
these people are insane and the thing too.

1098
01:37:18,720 --> 01:37:21,119
I mean, think about what you'd
have to throw out the majority of

1099
01:37:21,159 --> 01:37:26,279
the great books because they're Pagans,
are not Christians. I brought up in

1100
01:37:26,319 --> 01:37:34,640
the stream today. Uh one am
I blanking on his name? What second?

1101
01:37:36,720 --> 01:37:45,119
Oh my god, I've this slipped
a portrait of Dorian Gray. It's

1102
01:37:45,920 --> 01:37:55,560
Oscar Wilde. Oscar Wilde is degenerate
s O D S O D. But

1103
01:37:55,640 --> 01:38:00,800
that's a great work. So yes, it's like those are just hominyens.

1104
01:38:00,079 --> 01:38:06,279
Somebody could be a degenerate and you
know, well, Palama says that Plato

1105
01:38:08,520 --> 01:38:14,680
was demonic. So but does does
that mean every argument that Plato had is

1106
01:38:14,720 --> 01:38:17,239
bad? Of course not. Imagine
as a professor, I'm like, no,

1107
01:38:17,479 --> 01:38:21,159
you can't actually say anything true because
you haven't acquired the virtues and you're

1108
01:38:21,199 --> 01:38:28,840
not baptized Orthodox, So you will
not be allowed to engage in the class

1109
01:38:30,239 --> 01:38:34,279
or say anything that possibly could be
true because obviously you're a reprobate. We

1110
01:38:34,359 --> 01:38:38,039
all know that. I mean,
imagine how absurd if I, like,

1111
01:38:38,159 --> 01:38:42,680
people really carried this through. Yeah, that's actually a good point. So

1112
01:38:42,800 --> 01:38:45,680
I think I think with a lot
of the younger guys, like guys that

1113
01:38:45,760 --> 01:38:50,000
are like eighteen to twenty two,
Like, there is this weird tendency towards

1114
01:38:50,079 --> 01:38:55,920
this hyper rigid puritanism, and that's
also in the mix, especially with it's

1115
01:38:55,960 --> 01:39:00,960
not just with the weird Orthodox,
but that's also going on the tradecast fears.

1116
01:39:00,800 --> 01:39:06,720
And by the way, that puritanicalism
and Puritanism, the New England,

1117
01:39:09,119 --> 01:39:15,560
the New England clam chowder of Rebecca
had a really good whole thing about like

1118
01:39:15,680 --> 01:39:23,000
that's where modern day democrat liberal,
that's what you will become. They were,

1119
01:39:23,119 --> 01:39:30,840
They're rooted in the Puritans, and
that New England puritanicalist. Oh you're

1120
01:39:30,880 --> 01:39:35,680
not cada and trad for going that
way. You're faking gray all right,

1121
01:39:36,880 --> 01:39:44,119
love the Gulf Coast. Ari,
what's up? You want to try again?

1122
01:39:49,920 --> 01:39:55,119
Emmets? When did concept and double
become UNI eight? Right before it

1123
01:39:55,199 --> 01:39:59,439
fell? Mind? Haack? Five
dollars? Nothing? Thank you? Are

1124
01:39:59,479 --> 01:40:04,079
you there? Hello? Yes,
sir? Hi? This is day very

1125
01:40:04,159 --> 01:40:09,960
four? Can you hear me?
Who? What? Yep? That says

1126
01:40:10,000 --> 01:40:13,079
I'm a speaker. Earlier I had
a little trouble with the connection. I

1127
01:40:13,159 --> 01:40:18,279
hope it's better now. What's up? Okay? You have so many themes.

1128
01:40:19,560 --> 01:40:26,119
It's Friday afternoon, and I'm recalling
sitting with my old Calvinist before mentors

1129
01:40:26,159 --> 01:40:30,039
on Friday afternoon and Saturday, going
back and forth about systematic theology over the

1130
01:40:30,119 --> 01:40:35,640
kitchen table. I've been a Catholic
for over twenty years now, found answers

1131
01:40:35,760 --> 01:40:43,279
that were not there in the reformed
world. The thing that really grabs me

1132
01:40:43,359 --> 01:40:46,520
about what you've been discussing this afternoon
is the locus, if you will,

1133
01:40:46,960 --> 01:40:56,439
in the ontology of universals. My
Calvinist mentors used to say that we get

1134
01:40:56,520 --> 01:41:03,079
our universals not from Plato's ideas,
but directly from the ideas that are attributes

1135
01:41:03,119 --> 01:41:11,079
of God theological identical with the divine
nature. Yeah, we don't believe that.

1136
01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:15,479
We would say that that's platonism.
I have since learned that, Yeah,

1137
01:41:15,640 --> 01:41:20,119
the Catholic Orthodoxy considers that to be
ontologism, which is a heresy.

1138
01:41:21,439 --> 01:41:27,520
I think, in the limit,
it denies the incomprehensibility of God. So

1139
01:41:28,159 --> 01:41:33,560
from where I'm sitting now, I
would advocate a return to Aquinas's view that

1140
01:41:33,680 --> 01:41:42,680
the universals are indeed existent in the
created order, they're forward infinite. We

1141
01:41:42,680 --> 01:41:44,319
don't, I don't want to.
I don't. We don't need any of

1142
01:41:44,359 --> 01:41:47,319
Aquinas because that's not going to be
consistent because he says that the divine ideas

1143
01:41:47,399 --> 01:41:51,000
are the divine essence. So that
doesn't get us anywhere. Maximus's view is

1144
01:41:51,079 --> 01:41:57,520
that the divine ideas are divine energies
or LOGI, Well, the divine ideas

1145
01:41:57,560 --> 01:42:00,439
are the divine essence. There's no
problem with that. No, not that

1146
01:42:00,640 --> 01:42:04,359
that's that's the reason that they're not
is. The reason that they're not is

1147
01:42:04,439 --> 01:42:09,319
transcendental tomism. So I'm coming from
that, okay, And let me explain

1148
01:42:09,439 --> 01:42:12,159
why I don't think that's the case. I don't think it's true, because

1149
01:42:12,359 --> 01:42:16,880
if the created things that come to
be are patterned on the divine ideas that

1150
01:42:16,960 --> 01:42:23,520
are in the divine essence, then
logically they should come to be necessarily because

1151
01:42:23,520 --> 01:42:27,560
the divine essence is synonymous with the
divine ideas, and the divine essence is

1152
01:42:27,680 --> 01:42:32,199
necessary. Therefore the created patterns aren't
also necessary. I'm not going to get

1153
01:42:32,199 --> 01:42:35,479
into the necessity of creation right now. Well that's my argument as why.

1154
01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:40,680
Well that's the argument why I wouldn't
So you're not going to address the argument.

1155
01:42:41,880 --> 01:42:45,159
So you're not going to address the
argument. You don't want to address

1156
01:42:45,199 --> 01:42:48,960
the argument, so you don't want
to address the actual critique of the position.

1157
01:42:50,119 --> 01:42:54,359
I'm not sure what the debate is. I just stated it. Do

1158
01:42:54,359 --> 01:43:00,479
you want me stated again? Okay, If the divine ideas are divine ideas

1159
01:43:00,560 --> 01:43:03,159
of created things, and if the
divine ideas are the divine essence, and

1160
01:43:03,199 --> 01:43:06,520
the divine essence is necessary, then
the creative things are just as necessary as

1161
01:43:06,520 --> 01:43:14,039
a divine essence. Well, that's
like the old Calvin is super lapsarian debate,

1162
01:43:14,319 --> 01:43:17,560
is it super or infra? You
can't outside the hidden nature of God

1163
01:43:17,640 --> 01:43:23,319
and figure that out. It's a
logical entailment from the Tomas position. No,

1164
01:43:23,840 --> 01:43:27,840
you can't assume that our logic maps
over into the divine essence like that.

1165
01:43:28,000 --> 01:43:30,680
You just admitted that the divine ideas
are the divine essence, right,

1166
01:43:30,760 --> 01:43:36,720
they're identical with the divine Exactly of
the creatures is in the ivum, not

1167
01:43:36,920 --> 01:43:42,079
in the divine essence. But the
patterns of the creatures are based on the

1168
01:43:42,119 --> 01:43:45,960
divine ideas and divine essence. The
mapping goes to the ivum, not directly

1169
01:43:46,039 --> 01:43:48,479
to the essence. Otherwise we would
have ontology. How do you know that

1170
01:43:48,560 --> 01:43:54,359
there's a distinction between the IBM and
the essence because otherwise it just sounds like

1171
01:43:55,560 --> 01:44:00,479
it's just another violating ontologism. Well, again, maybe your position leads to

1172
01:44:00,479 --> 01:44:02,880
ontologism. I'm glad that you don't
want it. But how do we know

1173
01:44:03,000 --> 01:44:09,720
that there's these other distinctions? Well, I'm certainly not insisting that Aquinas is

1174
01:44:09,760 --> 01:44:12,720
perfect. I mean, there are
plenty of areas where I disagree with him,

1175
01:44:12,800 --> 01:44:15,840
especially in physical sciences. Fair enough, so, can we talk about

1176
01:44:16,199 --> 01:44:20,760
the epistemology of tumism, because that's
where all of this has its root.

1177
01:44:21,319 --> 01:44:27,560
Do you agree with classical foundationalists approaches
to epistemology, as most Roman Catholics do

1178
01:44:30,039 --> 01:44:35,560
foundationalism, as in all the requirements
for knowledge are met in scripture and tradition,

1179
01:44:38,000 --> 01:44:44,600
no epistemic foundationalism. Do you believe
in first principles and self evident maxims

1180
01:44:44,720 --> 01:44:47,600
like Aristotle talks about, yes,
yes, okay, do you believe?

1181
01:44:47,680 --> 01:44:53,520
Do you accept the peripatetic axiom?
I don't know it by that name?

1182
01:44:53,640 --> 01:44:57,840
Can you state it logically? So? Aquinas affirms the parapateetic axiom in de

1183
01:44:58,000 --> 01:45:00,920
vertat and he says, there's nothing
in the intel that's not first in the

1184
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:08,960
sense data. Oh, I think
there's good evidence that. For example,

1185
01:45:09,439 --> 01:45:14,000
to support a slightly more contient point
of view, I think there's good evidence

1186
01:45:14,039 --> 01:45:17,119
that your very young children can sense
death before having the experience of it.

1187
01:45:18,239 --> 01:45:21,119
So you don't accept the patch accident? Do you think they're self having a

1188
01:45:21,199 --> 01:45:26,720
truth? Not the peripathetic axiom?
Totally not at this point, although I

1189
01:45:26,760 --> 01:45:29,800
think it's generally true. Okay,
well yeah we would agree with that.

1190
01:45:29,880 --> 01:45:32,119
Well, yeah, I would use
a transcendental Tomas, Yeah, he probably

1191
01:45:32,159 --> 01:45:36,479
would, sure that. Like appealing
to lawn again, different people like that,

1192
01:45:38,319 --> 01:45:43,199
No, not longer again, I
like actually I like Peter Geach and

1193
01:45:43,279 --> 01:45:48,159
some of the British analytic tradition and
suits me more Russell bertrand Russell Peter Geach.

1194
01:45:49,079 --> 01:45:54,199
The idea is transcendental analytic Thomism.
In other words, we accept the

1195
01:45:54,319 --> 01:45:59,720
logical ideas as necessary in creation.
We don't necessarily try to map it over

1196
01:45:59,800 --> 01:46:04,920
in to the divine nature. The
created ontology is distinct from the creator's existence.

1197
01:46:05,760 --> 01:46:11,680
Yeah, but I think the point
is that if we are if we

1198
01:46:11,720 --> 01:46:17,079
believe in via negativa, and we
reduce God's thoughts or his ideas to the

1199
01:46:17,119 --> 01:46:21,000
divine essence, and we also believe
in via negativa, then we have to

1200
01:46:21,079 --> 01:46:26,439
assume that there's an analogia. But
we never have a basis to know that

1201
01:46:26,479 --> 01:46:32,000
there's an analogia between the essence itself
and the created things. So that's why

1202
01:46:32,039 --> 01:46:35,520
there is the essence iner distinction,
and that's why I guess I would shift

1203
01:46:35,560 --> 01:46:43,359
a debate then between me and a
transcendental Tomas to the Theophanes themselves. Do

1204
01:46:43,439 --> 01:46:47,840
you think that God can appear in
time and space? Yes, However I

1205
01:46:47,880 --> 01:46:55,640
would qualify that I think most of
the revelations in scripture are probably angels.

1206
01:46:57,000 --> 01:46:59,439
Then it's not God in time and
space. That's the whole point. For

1207
01:46:59,479 --> 01:47:01,359
example, should kind of glory,
you think that's a creative being. So

1208
01:47:01,439 --> 01:47:10,399
you think God's glory is a creature. Well, yeah, this is why

1209
01:47:10,560 --> 01:47:14,520
the system is wrong. It doesn't
say that. It does say it.

1210
01:47:14,960 --> 01:47:18,039
It says, no man can see
God's face and live. And yet Moses

1211
01:47:18,079 --> 01:47:23,720
saw God's face because God's face is
Jesus. He showed his back parts.

1212
01:47:25,039 --> 01:47:28,720
Jesus, according to Paul and second
three three is who was face to face

1213
01:47:28,800 --> 01:47:31,600
talking to Moses. The text in
Exodus also says Moses talk to God face

1214
01:47:31,640 --> 01:47:36,119
to face. It says both of
those things. Okay, well, you

1215
01:47:36,199 --> 01:47:40,720
know, so God can be in
time and space, and termism of can

1216
01:47:40,840 --> 01:47:43,640
be the equivalent of talking to God. It's a royal thing. No,

1217
01:47:44,039 --> 01:47:46,880
No, that's the Jewish position.
The Orthodox Catholic position, the first thousand

1218
01:47:46,920 --> 01:47:50,239
years of Christianity argues that it's the
second person the God had in time and

1219
01:47:50,279 --> 01:47:54,640
space. Jesus says he was the
one that was there talking to Moses,

1220
01:47:55,000 --> 01:48:00,960
who ate with Moses on the mountain. I'd have to look it up.

1221
01:48:00,840 --> 01:48:03,680
Jesus says, he's the one that
ate with Moses. It's a connmental meal

1222
01:48:03,720 --> 01:48:11,199
who ate with Abraham justis sixteen right, Jesus did exactly. So there are

1223
01:48:11,479 --> 01:48:15,079
energetic manifestations or theophanes, which are
not angels because you can't worship angels.

1224
01:48:15,439 --> 01:48:19,960
These manifestations are called God worshiped and
identified as the second person that God had

1225
01:48:19,960 --> 01:48:26,600
in the New Testament. So thomaslm
is false. Huh, Well, I

1226
01:48:26,760 --> 01:48:30,560
have to look up Saint Thomas more
on that. But well, let me

1227
01:48:30,600 --> 01:48:32,239
give you an example. Have you
ever have you ever debated with a Muslim?

1228
01:48:33,039 --> 01:48:39,039
I'm not sure Thomas would say that
every theophany is angelic. I think

1229
01:48:39,119 --> 01:48:42,359
many of them are the ones you
site seem pretty much. I'm about the

1230
01:48:42,399 --> 01:48:46,760
ones that call it the glory of
God, right, Chicana glory. That's

1231
01:48:46,800 --> 01:48:50,119
a tough one. It's not tough. It's the Orthodox teaching of the essence

1232
01:48:50,119 --> 01:48:58,560
centeredy, distinction and real theophanies.
Well, back to Muslims. I've debated

1233
01:48:58,640 --> 01:49:00,640
briefly with some Muslims. I would
say they're difficult. They think most of

1234
01:49:00,680 --> 01:49:05,000
our trinitarian thinking is just rank superstition. But maybe the reason that you can't

1235
01:49:05,039 --> 01:49:10,279
debate them is this very point,
because it's necessary to show that the Torah

1236
01:49:10,399 --> 01:49:17,760
teaches the Trinity. I believe that, but I think, well the Torah.

1237
01:49:17,920 --> 01:49:20,000
I would add the profits to the
Torah. But if you say,

1238
01:49:20,000 --> 01:49:23,960
if you take Torah plus profits,
you definitely get the Trinity. Well,

1239
01:49:24,039 --> 01:49:27,439
I did three hours of lectures just
on the Theophanes and the Torah, so

1240
01:49:27,640 --> 01:49:30,239
yeah, I definitely believe in the
prophits too, sure, right right,

1241
01:49:30,560 --> 01:49:33,880
But the point is that the Old
Testament doesn't teach a Unitarian deity. It

1242
01:49:33,960 --> 01:49:39,520
teaches the Trinity. And the Trinity
is derived from all of these Theophanies.

1243
01:49:39,840 --> 01:49:44,399
And so if you take the Tomistic
position that the uncreated light and that Theophanes

1244
01:49:44,520 --> 01:49:49,199
are angels and creatures, we lose
this whole line of argumentation, which destroys

1245
01:49:49,920 --> 01:49:58,239
Muslims. Yeah, that may be
an helpful point. Well, I'm fair

1246
01:49:58,359 --> 01:50:04,600
enough. I appreciate the honesty.
Then anything else you want to get discussed,

1247
01:50:05,279 --> 01:50:08,640
that's it. I'll leave the four
of you guys for now, but

1248
01:50:08,720 --> 01:50:11,279
I'll be listening. Thanks for a
time, Thank you. I appreciate the

1249
01:50:11,359 --> 01:50:20,800
civil discussion. Appreciate that. Okay, So we've got a couple more super

1250
01:50:20,880 --> 01:50:30,000
chats here. Let's see uh ortho
bro two dollars and twenty cents. There

1251
01:50:30,039 --> 01:50:38,000
are people saying that they want to
teach me things. Yeah exactly. I

1252
01:50:38,079 --> 01:50:43,279
mean I think a lot of these
people are I don't know, it's just

1253
01:50:43,399 --> 01:50:54,199
a weird sort of fascination and obsession
with topics that I mean. The energies

1254
01:50:54,239 --> 01:50:58,159
are a difficult, complex doctrine in
the Orthodox Church. They're not the first

1255
01:50:58,199 --> 01:51:01,880
thing that people typically try to learn
and talk about. But because of all

1256
01:51:01,960 --> 01:51:05,560
of this Tomism, and because of
all the discussion that's been out here in

1257
01:51:05,600 --> 01:51:11,600
the public sphere since a lot of
doctor Bradshaw's works were published, which kind

1258
01:51:11,600 --> 01:51:16,720
of revitalized the debate in a lot
of the academic sphere, it's kind of

1259
01:51:16,880 --> 01:51:25,680
forced this into the public sphere.
So I don't care what people in Wagner's

1260
01:51:25,680 --> 01:51:30,640
comments section thing Alexandersulz needs some ten
dollars Kosovo is Serbia one eight hundred get

1261
01:51:30,680 --> 01:51:34,600
wrecked five dollars. I'm currently a
traditional Catholic, but I'm looking at Orthodoxy.

1262
01:51:34,960 --> 01:51:40,600
Why does Rome Catholicism subordinate divine revelation
to philosophy rather rather than the other

1263
01:51:40,640 --> 01:51:45,159
way around, Because I think that
it's bound up with their epistemology of believing

1264
01:51:45,319 --> 01:51:53,520
that you have first principles you have
basic axioms. It's really wedded to the

1265
01:51:53,640 --> 01:52:00,399
ancient and medieval approach to putting metaphysics
first and then things like epistemology that's down

1266
01:52:00,439 --> 01:52:04,520
the road, and modern philosophy is
premised on flipping that right. So after

1267
01:52:04,600 --> 01:52:10,399
the modern philosophers come about, they
question this putting the metaphysical cart before the

1268
01:52:10,439 --> 01:52:14,319
epistemic horse, and say, this
is actually kind of inconsistent. You're gonna

1269
01:52:14,319 --> 01:52:18,199
have to justify that you have knowledge
first before you can assume or assert this

1270
01:52:18,359 --> 01:52:24,039
gigantic metaphysical system. Now we agree
with a lot of the metaphysical principles that

1271
01:52:24,119 --> 01:52:28,880
they assert, but the question is
different when it gets to the modern era

1272
01:52:28,960 --> 01:52:30,680
and we have skepticism and atheism,
all this stuff, and we need to

1273
01:52:30,720 --> 01:52:33,439
be able to respond to those things. And we also need to be able

1274
01:52:33,439 --> 01:52:39,439
to respond to the assumptions of people
who think that text just mean what they

1275
01:52:39,479 --> 01:52:43,000
say, and say what they mean, that there's epistemic bootstrapping, that things

1276
01:52:43,039 --> 01:52:47,239
are not theory laid in. We
don't have to respond to the myth of

1277
01:52:47,279 --> 01:52:50,439
the given, we don't have to
respond to the criterion problem. I mean,

1278
01:52:50,479 --> 01:52:54,520
the whole point of TAG is to
respond to all those things. So

1279
01:52:54,840 --> 01:53:00,399
that's why we respond in this way. But what I'm finding is that isn't

1280
01:53:00,399 --> 01:53:09,000
it interesting that the same basic assumptions
in Thomism are the same basic assumptions of

1281
01:53:09,279 --> 01:53:13,159
Islam. Soon he Islam, So
they have the same epistemology, a kind

1282
01:53:13,199 --> 01:53:21,000
of a basic empiricist approach. And
remember in the Sheikh Azar Rashid debate,

1283
01:53:21,920 --> 01:53:26,960
shak As Rashid made this argument.
He said, a pagan on an island,

1284
01:53:27,720 --> 01:53:31,920
if he used his reasoning faculty correctly, would reason to an absolutely simple

1285
01:53:32,079 --> 01:53:38,880
essence of Islam. Now just think
about that, contrasted to the natural theology

1286
01:53:39,039 --> 01:53:44,800
arguments of the Thomas If a pagan
Aristotle setter uses his reasoning correctly, he

1287
01:53:44,960 --> 01:53:47,720
reasons to the first cause, the
first actuality, and that's ultimately the Catholic

1288
01:53:47,800 --> 01:53:54,319
God. So wait a minute,
as natural theology taking me to Islam,

1289
01:53:54,439 --> 01:53:59,680
because actually, why wouldn't I think
that it takes me to Islam? And

1290
01:54:00,000 --> 01:54:01,720
that's why even our friend here,
the Thomas guy, said, well,

1291
01:54:02,319 --> 01:54:06,000
they have some difficult things to argue. Now, maybe he didn't mean that

1292
01:54:06,039 --> 01:54:09,560
they have good arguments. Maybe it
just meant that they're difficult people, which

1293
01:54:09,640 --> 01:54:17,359
is also true. But yeah,
the root here is, and I appreciate

1294
01:54:17,439 --> 01:54:20,960
that that he has, you know, some of the Kantient admissions there,

1295
01:54:20,960 --> 01:54:26,079
I would agree with that. I
just wouldn't make Kantianism any kind of solution.

1296
01:54:26,159 --> 01:54:31,000
I'm not saying he said that,
but a trance and old Thomas I

1297
01:54:31,079 --> 01:54:38,359
do not believe would ever argue that
there's a transcendental argument for God. Forty

1298
01:54:38,399 --> 01:54:41,680
did you get the message? One
dollar quick question? If you have a

1299
01:54:41,760 --> 01:54:46,279
son, what would you name him? We do not actively try not to

1300
01:54:46,439 --> 01:54:53,199
have sons, but we don't know
that Jamie kin. But if she did

1301
01:54:53,319 --> 01:54:55,760
have a son, I think we
talked about this. I don't remember what

1302
01:54:55,880 --> 01:54:59,239
names we talked about. I mean, it would probably be something, you

1303
01:54:59,319 --> 01:55:04,640
know, biblical, a saint name. Jebediah, it would be it would

1304
01:55:04,720 --> 01:55:12,359
be Methuselah. Give me some more
Amish names, just real quick. Jebediah,

1305
01:55:12,479 --> 01:55:19,479
Ezekiel, Obadiah. Yeah, but
then that brings us to the Amish

1306
01:55:19,560 --> 01:55:23,720
question, right, the AQ and
the almost are running everything. Or you

1307
01:55:23,760 --> 01:55:30,640
could do like Roman names like Quintus, Fabius, Maximus, lucretious fun.

1308
01:55:30,439 --> 01:55:36,479
Yeah, those are great names.
Yeah, I just don't understand so many

1309
01:55:36,600 --> 01:55:44,520
people really have this desire to want
to make Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism basically be

1310
01:55:44,680 --> 01:55:48,760
the same, and that we're all
on the same page. And the problem

1311
01:55:48,960 --> 01:55:56,479
is going to be again that you've
got this dogmatization of the position that Grace

1312
01:55:56,960 --> 01:55:59,600
is. As far as I can
tell, it's dogmatized, at least in

1313
01:55:59,640 --> 01:56:05,039
the post Tridentine disputes that Grace is
it created supernatural reality, and there's just

1314
01:56:05,119 --> 01:56:11,800
no way we could ever accept that. I think also what motivates it.

1315
01:56:12,199 --> 01:56:15,560
It's the same sort of kind of
people that are no surprise, a lot

1316
01:56:15,600 --> 01:56:20,520
of them our Western right. They
want one jurisdiction, which is motivated by

1317
01:56:20,560 --> 01:56:23,680
the State Department, by the way, it's nothing to do with Orthodoxy.

1318
01:56:24,399 --> 01:56:30,359
Yeah, and that they want this
political power structure we see will be this

1319
01:56:31,359 --> 01:56:35,079
huge if we unite with Rome,
then will do you notice it's always they're

1320
01:56:35,079 --> 01:56:41,880
always thinking in terms of political politics
and optics and we'll just be one big

1321
01:56:45,239 --> 01:56:48,439
Yeah. It's like it's again the
root I think of the entire problem of

1322
01:56:48,520 --> 01:56:55,359
Romactholsism back to the Gregorian reforms is
a desire for political, geopolitical power and

1323
01:56:55,399 --> 01:56:59,279
control. And so it's not surprising
that the justification for their arguments for why

1324
01:56:59,319 --> 01:57:02,359
we all need to just come back
together and just go back to frank Is

1325
01:57:02,640 --> 01:57:13,439
because we'll be a geopolitical unified power. YEP. I don't see any more

1326
01:57:13,600 --> 01:57:19,279
questions over here in the discord.
And let's say, if I have any

1327
01:57:19,279 --> 01:57:27,479
more super chets, I think that's
all the superchets. Thank you for those

1328
01:57:27,520 --> 01:57:30,079
fat ones, especially Kristen for winning
the day with one hundred dollars super chats.

1329
01:57:30,079 --> 01:57:33,319
Appreciate that if you would hit like
and share. Also remember to heading

1330
01:57:33,359 --> 01:57:41,159
over to Autonomy Agora Marketplace and I
have a full philosophy course lecture there that

1331
01:57:41,800 --> 01:57:47,239
is over at Richard Groves's website.
We start with the pre Socratics, then

1332
01:57:47,279 --> 01:57:51,039
we work our way all the way
up basically to Nietzsche and postmoderns. Father

1333
01:57:51,119 --> 01:57:54,880
Deacon Anius is present in one of
those talks. He's there with me for

1334
01:57:54,960 --> 01:57:59,800
the epistemology lecture the esthetic. I'm
just going to say too, I learned

1335
01:57:59,840 --> 01:58:05,760
all my philosophy from those courses.
So if that says anything I thought you,

1336
01:58:05,960 --> 01:58:12,479
I thought that you basically just literally
copy and paste everything from Thomas Aquinas.

1337
01:58:12,520 --> 01:58:15,560
That's what I've heard about you.
Yeah, that's you got you got

1338
01:58:15,640 --> 01:58:17,960
me. I'm busted